Guild Wars 2

Psybunny.8906:

sorrow, bring your warr, I’ll poke you around a bit with my thief.

Is this your last stand?
When you want, sir.

Lighter.5631:

do you even know what is an argument? its not “no argument is valid if it is against warriors.”. there’s literally no argument in your comment, like 0. go back to school and learn some philosophy, seriously.

even the guy you quoted said that it is only an OPINION and he might be wrong and warrior will become trash again when meta switch.

Yeah, amazing! We even went down to the “get back to school”! Did you even read my posts?
Do you have a degree in philosophy?

Iscariot.4876:

You have no arguments. Both your quotes were debunked with one being a random nonsensical comment and the other being a theory-crafting discussion that the player admits may be wrong and his opinion may change.

And counting warriors is an argument?? Seriously? Did you count teams with necro,thief,guardian,ranger?? How many teams were missing one of those classes in “the opener”.

Now tell me how many warriors were in the “FINAL”. Right… 1.

How about the Grand Final? 2… each team brought a warr.

What about PAX? Oh yeah …1.

How can you not be happy that warriors are now good enough to get a team spot on tournament teams? The only thing you can do is wait to see what happens, and maybe want Engies and Eles to get a little boost since they seemed underrepresented.

With the new patch Engies new group utility may bump them enough that they are a playstyle decision with other group fight classes.

Understood.
No argument is valid if it is against warriors.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Oblivion.8307:

This is my personal opinion though I guess, maybe I’m wrong and as soon as a ‘meta switch’ occurs warriors will be trash.

He just covered his kitten just in case his opinion turned out to be wrong, which isn’t the case since Warriors are now a must-have in every competitive team. Want to ignore the rest of his post because of that sentence?

Scoobaniec.9561:

Hi, I’m top 10 and warriors are op. << no reason? Ok.
……………………..

The reason has been explained a lot of times in that topic already, there was no need to explain the same reasons again.
Want to tell him “L2P noob, warrior is fine”? I know you guys can’t wait to do so.

Iscariot.4876:

So why don’t we talk about warriors impact on sPvP and stop derailing the balance discussion with 1v1 and WubWub examples and conversations.

And if you want to talk balance you should only be talking about high tier play. Since there is no real data for this outside 1 major tournament with 1 warrior who wasn’t even the stun warrior spec… Why are we having these screaming matches again????

Tournaments need to play for a few months to see what balances are needed, IF any.

Want some high tier opinion?

Symbolic, from Team Curse (ex Team Paradigm):
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Warrior-Discussion/page/3#post2783991
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Warrior-Discussion/page/3#post2784880

Fuzion, from team USA and top 10 before inactivity
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Warrior-Discussion/page/3#post2783943

Also, have you watched the ESL opening cup? You can count on the fingers of one hand the teams which didn’t ran any warrior.

So Daecollo is the guy behind the topic movement from sPvP to profession forum?
Now everything is clear!
That’s why only Thief and Warrior related topics get moved.

Thank you Excalibur, you opened my eyes.

Daecollo.9578:

I proved you wrong.

So if I post half a screenshot of me as a Warrior stomping a Necromancer I prove you’re wrong?

Daecollo.9578:

I absolutely Trash FOTM warriors on my Necro.

OMG, Daecollo has proved everything with 1/3 of a random screenshot of a MM Necro.

This thread is over.

/sarcasm

Psybunny.8906:

Oh and you know that little thing called stability and at the same time can force out some utilities with line of warding or slow the warr down with scepter 3.

So you’re saying that to make Necro works against a Warrior you need at least two stunbreakers and a Guardian with SYG and Hallowed Ground?
Wow, seems balanced that you need 4 utility skills to survive to a single profession.

Psybunny.8906:

And we come back to the start. Warr has to use his zerk stance in the beginning of the fight. You have to survive that <8 seconds. After that you can keep crippling/CC-ing him. Also what NPCs? Are we still talking about tPvP not wubwub? Or suddenly a new factor as a spirit ranger came into the theoretical fight?

Start of a match means before the engagement. The Warrior does not use Berserker Stance at the start of the encounter, but at the start of the match so he can join the fight with full adrenaline. Then taking hits, using burst skills and hitting your enemies regenerate adrenaline. Probably also farting generates adrenaline, but I have yet to test it out.

Oh wait, so tPvP has no NPCs? Like no spirits, no minions, no pets, no clones/illusions, no turrets, no elementals, no thieves (from thieves guild) etc?

Psybunny.8906:

Burst classes counter warrs, especially S/D thief and if engys get their stability buff, then they’ll probably eat those meta warrs for breakfast also. That same imba spec will fall in a few seconds if lbow warr+thief+mesmer focus him at the same time. At the same time S/F ele (who is pushed out of the meta by neccy/engy) hardcounters lbow warr.

Every profession with burst negating skills (Endure Pain) and 3000+ armor is not countered by direct damage burst. You are making baseless assumptions.

Or are you saying that you need warr+thief+mesmer to focus a single warrior to take him down?

Psybunny.8906:

I agree the blind is strong, but the HP and toughness are nonsense. Lich form has crazy HP and toughness also, but everyone knows that with no active defense it melts in seconds when focused. Thief rips your stability and GL eating a long fear while getting focused down or getting dazespam+auto to death with D/P. Elite wasted. You can’t afford to be in the middle of the action with neccy anymore. Plague is only good for rez denial and spamming blind, but it won’t save you from getting focused.
Warr lbow 5 immo to lbow F1+3 and enjoy staying in that firefield that is followed with a power spike while having only the option to break out of your elite and waste it or die.

That is just not true. Check the wiki. Lich form only adds 916 vitality as defensive stat, toughness is the same.
Plague adds 2748 toughness and 1832 vitality, which means 1/2 of damage taken with 0 toughness and +18k HP.

Please, don’t try to teach me how Necromancer works. Plague WILL save you from getting focused.

Psybunny.8906:

Hmm…I wonder why is stability useful against me?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Headshot -> Dagger autochain -> repeat.
Either have stability or enjoy getting dazelocked. Oh and you know that little thing http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Basilisk_Venom.
Endure pain doesn’t save the warr from lockdown.
Are you gonna demand for videoproof like some other random dude who didn’t believe that it’s very possible to run S/D&D/P thief in this meta?

Necro was my 1st alt I created way back in release and I agree that although it’s not the profession I have the most pvp experience on, I still feel fairly confident while playing it. But for future reference, I think it’s better to ask tips in neccy subforum from fellow neccy players than to scream there is no counterplay and that anyone who has success fighting them is a liar.

Do you really spam Headshot? Really?!

None has said that he had success playing against warrior as a Necro in this topic, only warrior-biased have said that warrior is fine.
You are just proving post after post that you have no knowledge at all of the Necro class and yet you feel confident into giving tips to how to play a profession you barely played, only to avoid a proper balance discussion.

Then you have added lies and hyperboles to the mixture, making all of this even more ridiculous.

Axtozob.4597:

I often get backstabbed at 8~9K from thieves when I am between 3K-3K3 armor so 2K-2K-5K seems realistic.

Do I really have to bring some math to prove how blatant this lie is?

Psybunny.8906:

Arguing for the sake of arguing?
1. Bad guard or bad team synergy then. You have to hide behind others and they must protect you. You can’t rambo in midfights like neccy used to.

That’s not bad team synergy if a guardian can’t completely save your kitten if you’re focused and not in plague. He isn’t a monk for Guild Wars 1, the best he can do is giving protection for a couple of seconds.

Psybunny.8906:

2. Earthshaker is the only close range gap closer that is not affected by chill/cripple, but it requires adrenaline. Zerk stance is the only adrenaline on demand skill for warr who is running healing signet. Shield bash is so highly telegraphed and heavily affected by cripple/chill. If he isn’t using a lbow he can’t cleanse himself with ease. Hammer F1 is interruptable midair and the most telegraphed skill in game apart from ele dagger earth 5. Again I remind you, CC warr is your hard counter.

You are never out of adrenaline. The build I’m talking about you gain adrenaline when hit, you gain 1/3 adrenaline after using a burst skill and you can charge up adrenaline using berserker stance at the start of a match. You can build up adrenaline on NPCs anyway without any problem.

CC warr is an hard counter of everything, except maybe Warrior themselves and guardians.

Also, who said that Warrior is an hard counter to Necromancer? And who said that hard counters are healthy for the game? This is not rock-paper-scissor.

Psybunny.8906:

3. I’d disagree, plague doesn’t offer so much anymore, since stability is too easily ripped by a thief and neccy can’t survive the focusfire in the middle of the midfights anymore anyways. Plague without stability is a death sentence (one with long CD). Plague was never a good small skirmish tool, it only worked as a delay, one which was extremely vulnerable to any ranged. Lbow warr will destroy you if you’re in plague form or atleast force you out of it right away.

WHAT?
Plague does not offers so much anymore? Like, it doesn’t gives you loads of HP, insane toughness and AoE blindness? Plague without stability is a death sentence?
Man, you should play Necromancer more before giving out suggestions in that way.

Psybunny.8906:

4. I have no problem KILLING any warrs.
I have “stunbreak” on demand and I know how to LoS when engaging.
Stability is easily ripped, larcenous hits through block and if he pops endure pain, I’ll just gtfo for 4 secs and re-engage. Same with zerk stance, if he pops it, I’ll just ignore it and poke him with sword or swap to D/P, stealth and wait for 8 secs before re-engaging. It’s funny, but my “weak” damage output still hits that 3000+ warr for 2k, 2k, 5k with my autochain.
Evade or blind thief is the worst enemy of a hammer warr.

Yeah, Stability is easily ripped but why would a warrior use stability against a thief?
Also, you hit for 2k, 2k and 5k with autoattack on 3000 armor? Why lying so obviously?
After this one, I think that I’m really done arguing with you. It is clear that you just want to defend stun warriors at any cost.

Have a good day, sir.

Psybunny.8906:

Guard will negate the focus on you and keep you alive with aegis, prot and stability while your team focuses the warr going after you. It’s all about positioning. Condi neccy is 0 melee, unless you’re running wells and traited them you’re spamming in range anyways.

Guard will not negate the focus on you. You are still being focused and die before or after if you don’t pop into Plague.

Psybunny.8906:

Most warrs use zerk stance right away when they engage, if they don’t you can just cripple/CC/condioverload him and I don’t see the problem in that case.

There is the problem. Earthshaker is a leap, so is Shield Bash, hammer shock is a snare.
The tools to close the gaps are there and you can cleanse the cripple/chill with ease and stunlock the Necro to death. If you have still trouble to reach the Necro (most unlikely), berserker stance is available.

Psybunny.8906:

Golem. It’s an arguable alternative to plague, but it’s still useful both for getting some extra control or creating some breathing space.

Golem is not an arguable alternative to Plague on conditionmancers. You won’t survive to any focus fire without Plague and golem will die in a second on AoEs without traiting.

Psybunny.8906:

I main a thief in tPvP for the past 4-5 months. I don’t lose to a hammer or any other full melee warrior. Only specs I fear in 1v1 situations are phant mesm, condiwarr, neccy and condiengy. Except for engy and neccy (very close fights) they are not represented in tournas. I have no problem biting through that 400hps with my thief.

You don’t lose to an hammer or full melee warriors, of course. You just can’t kill them.
The damage output of thieves can’t match the 3000+ armor of those warriors, endure pain, shield stance and occasional CCs (no stability for thieves).

Psybunny.8906:

Necro isn’t a bunker, gtfo from the point and spam from the ledge or atleast stand next to your guard.
Wurm is one of the best stunbreaks against full melee, since you can abuse ledges. Similar to thief shadowstep and mesmer blink/staff 2. The rat from minor 5 will die to the first earthshaker anyways when he already has zerk stance up.

Lyssa gives you aegis and stability to help you overcome warr’s zerk stance. Even neccys can get overloaded by condis, besides it gives good boon cover against S/D thieves. There’s a reason some necros are good and have adapted and some still play full offensive utilities/traits and QQ.

Overall, you only need enough def to overcome the first seconds of focus, so your team can peel him off of you. You should never be trying to fight warrior 1v1, he is your hard counter! And if you know there’s a hard counter for you in the match don’t try to solobunker home or whatever. Play defensively behind the line and punish the warriors overextending with your teams thief and GG.

So your solution is to stand next to my guardian (which means that the chances that an ES lands are way higher) or spam from a ledge. Amazing.

Also I guess you have never played Necromancer if you’re suggest to use the wurm as stunbreaker. It takes a couple of seconds to be killed and then you have lost a stunbreaker for nothing. It is unreliable, every Necromancer knows that and that’s why none is using it on non-minion builds.

You are assuming that the rat dies when he uses the first ES and he has already use berserker stance. This is a pretty made-up situation.

Yeah, Lyssa runes are awesome, I know that. Now tell me which elite of Necromancer is worth using with Lyssa.

Do you really think that a Thief is capable to kill a stance Warrior? Please, roll thief for a couple of SoloQ matches and try to kill a Warrior.

It is also funny how you accurately ignored the fact that your suggestion to dodge Earthshaker was completely senseless and that you came up to the solution that the only thing you can do is to avoid the combat.

redslion.9675:

Just one thing: remember the “Necromancer not OP, people need to L2P thread?”

Well, now it’s our turn.

I’m happy I can see things from this side of the barricade now, even if I don’t play cc war and never played condi.

I’ve never said that Necromancer was not OP after the June patch, I even stopped playing it until it was on a reasonable state again. Most pre-buff Necromancers said that it was OP and the damage buff was not needed. What’s your point, exactly?

Psybunny.8906:

Once you’ve waited out zerk stance then just don’t get hit by a crippled/chilled mace F1 and dodge hammer F1. That spec has no active cleansing except lyssa on elite and cleansing ire. Warr can’t constantly cleanse without hitting. Flesh wurm is the best stunbreak against a full melee warr, since it acts as a Z-axis stunbreak. GL for that warrior chasing you. Spectral Walk and wurm should be on your bar if you’re facing a full melee warr. I’ve seen some good necros who also use lyssa runes btw.

Lbow/hammer is a different creature, that’s the only spec that allows reliable cleansing. As you can see it doesn’t use mace and has 2 stuns and 1 daze less than the other spec. Imo it’s even stronger than all the other specs people are QQing about.

Para sigil fix will hurt both GS/mace+shield and hammer/mace+shield specs, but it won’t hit that spec so hard, since the only stun is the highly telegraphed hammer F1. So enjoy getting rolled by decent warriors who use that and come back crying for nerfs to lbow etc.

You show to have no clue at all on how Necromancer profession works.

That spec has no active cleasning except Lyssa and Cleansing Ire? Then they have active cleansing, you have just listed them! Plus berserker stance, which gives Warriors a free pass on every condition for 8s, in which they are unkiteable and unkillable by condition specs.

Warriors can constantly cleanse. With Earthshaker they don’t need to hit the Necromancer himself to get a cleanse, they just need to hit any of the AI entity or any other player on the point to get a full 3 condi cleanse. And you will have an AI entity around you if you have at least 5 points into Death Magic, even if you’re alone.

Also, it is mathematically impossible to dodge every Earthshaker and survive. Why? Because Earthshaker is on a 7 and 1/2s cooldown and Necromancers (with no access to vigor at all) regenerates one dodge every 10s. Which means that if you’re dodging every Earthshaker, you’re not dodging any other skill, so you’re not dodging Skull Crack, you’re not dodging Shield Bash, neither Pommel Bash.

About Flash Wurm, are you really convinced about what you’re saying? A unreliable stunbreaker that can be easily killed and forces you to leave the point you’re contesting? Also, Lyssa runes on Necromancers?! I think we’ve passed the limit here…

There are few things I’d like to specify further.

• It is pretty obvious to me that the only level of team cooperation about Conquest is the coordination given to other teammates about controlling the map. This is what makes you win in a Conquest match and it is mainly determined by communication (“2 on close”, “hold mid+close”, “push far”, “far is free”). It is still possible to communicate via chat, but it isn’t half as effective as voice communication and most times people don’t even understand what to do when they see those message written in a moment while holding up against 2 people. Other gamemodes aren’t that reliant communication as Conquest is. What do you need to communicate in Deathmatch or King of the Hill? A target to focus on at best. That makes those gamemodes a lot more PUG friendly.

• It is true that WvWvW and PvE aren’t about capping points and that the balancing behind conquest is way different from the balancing of WvWvW. In WvWvW KotH-like or DM-like situations are way more common, which means that adding them as structured gamemodes in competitive PvP will make the game easier to balance according to WvWvW too. It is true that there are also some other factors in WvWvW like food buffs, other rune sets and stat spreads, but adding in PvP WvW situations for sure will help the WvW skill balance too.

Building to survive in Conquest is stupid – building to kill ends up getting you the win. Car Crash understands this and that’s why they were rolling over people throughout the EU Invitational tournament.

Car Crash ran with two defensive specs in any match they have played, which is the standard for every team build.

jayson.6512:

Whatever we said he’ll never listen, it’s simple if you see a warrior change to mace shield make sure he wont get near you because once you let him you will know and 1000% expected that he will stun you he will not use 100b if you are not stun unless he is bad or just use it by mistake, and stun warriors use this build because it’s very effective againts condition meta most of the class that focus their build in condition doesnt care to bring a stun breaker or stability, i always lose to mesmer with mace/shield build but that doesnt mean anet needs to nerf them, what i did is think how to counter their current build which i succeed so if you are really annoyed with the current stun warrior why not play around with the build that can counter it? Not come here and post exaggerated numbers that will make you look like a troll. I will tell you i have a build for my warrior with 25k hp 3.1k armor 3k attack 20% crit chance 25% crit damage i dont think i can hit 4k damage per attack with my stat and this build is made to counter 2 necros vs me or maybe 3 condition vs me so i still have time to run away just play around with your class and you will see warrior is far from OP in spvp other class still target me 1st than other class.

Necromancers are usually running with two stunbreakers at least these days. Some of them are even going deeper into 30 traitpoints into Soul Reaping for Stability on Death Shroud (which isn’t even useful for conditions since it is a crit damage traitline) and it isn’t even enough to stop the stun spam.
A warrior can use Skull Crack and Earthshaker every 7 and 1/2 seconds and swap weapon sets every 5s. Plus those aren’t even the only CCs warrior have access to, in fact there are 3 more of them on Hammer + Mace/shield. A Necromancer can stunbreak every 46s at best and gain stability every 10s for 3s. That means that for at least 7s or even more (Necromancers usually don’t jump and exit right after from DS, but they stay in there for at least 3s), you are completely vulnerable to stuns. So, while a Necromancer has to flawlessly dodge every stun to survive (including Skull Crack that has little to no animation), a Warrior can keep cycling through its stuns spamming them mindlessly putting insane pressure on his enemies.
In the meantime, Warrior can easily counter Necro’s conditions by keep spamming its Burst skills (2-3 conditions removed each time) and using Berserker Stance as oh-kitten button to gain 100% immunity, while Healing Signet (+ Adrenal Health) vanify at least 3-4 stacks of bleeding automatically. Not to talk about the insane HP pool AND the nearly immunity to direct damage thanks to 3000+ armor, shield stance on demand and Endure Pain.
It is good to have a counter to conditions, but it’s not good to have a god-mode profession walking in PvP.

doc phil.8015:

Sorry I didn’t have the time to read all the answers so sorry if my question has been answered before. The original poster said that you could hit 4k damage and still have 3200 armor.hm I get around 3,2k damage on my third(!) hit with the mace in WvW (with buff food)going almost completely berserker (just 2 knights earrings) and melandru runes and i have 2,8 k armor. So how do you get your 4k damage? I really don’t get your point. It doesn’t really help to exaggerate actually. In PvP if you want that kinda armor you’d have around 15 % critical chance and like 30-35 % critical damage so you’d get nowhere near that kinda damage. Even in WvW where I have 92 % critical damage I don’t have that on my mace. I know stun warriors are annoying but still if you’re playing 1on1 mace/shield and GS is great but playing against more than one enemy it is not that good anymore and in WvW if you want to run with the Zerk it is almost useless. Warrior is a viable profession in PvP,WvW and PvE now but I don’t think it is close to being OP. I’m not trying to offend someone but that’s just my opinion.
BTW what I love most right now in PvP is Sword/Sword + Longbow and going for condition Warrior. Definatly not a new concept but I really like it with 0/30/20/0/20

It is easily possible to get 4k damage on a tank warrior.
The build I’m talking about is 0/10/30/0/30 with Unsuspecting Foe (50% crit on stunned), Merciless Hammer (25% damage on hammer on stunned), Burst Mastery and Destruction of the Empowered with Soldier Amulet + Berserker Jewel and Runes of the Ogre (or Crit damage runes).

The result is a warrior with 24k+ HP, 3200 Armor on shield and 3000 on hammer and insane damage on stunned foes.

Caom.9251:

L2P arguments never work.

Most (not all ) players assume that their defeat was because of facing something OP rather then themselves making a mistake. (whether or not this was the case here is not up for me to decide)

Just look a where the L2P arguments got the thieves, it never works, history will repeat itself and warriors will eventually suffer the same fate.

Anet always listens to whoever makes the loudest noise.

No. What’s really wrong is that people assume that the game is flawlessly balanced and that each time someone brings up a balance discussion it is surely because he’s a baddie and needs to learn to play.

People in profession forums tend to be horribly biased. If we assume that everything said in the profession forums is true, then every single nerf this game has seen was unnecessary.

Amir.1570:

^
So if you’re compatible with the Necro, why can’t you figure out how to deal with Warrior CC? You don’t know how to use Flesh Wurm and Foot in the Grave? Gotcha, so you’re just a weak skilled player.

Do you really think that I’ve just came up here from an hotjoin match after I’ve been killed by a Warrior and say they are OP? And, above all, do you really think that I’ve not tried to run stability + double stunbreaker?

Also lol @ Flesh Wurm as stunbreaker.

Amir.1570:

@sorrow
Again. You refuse to make plays you deserve to lose. I don’t condone the Warriors state right now but you have options considering you’re one of those people who plays FOTM characters.

I always played Necromancer, even when it was the joke of PvP, PvE and WvWvW (hence, before the june patch). I don’t know based on what you’re saying that I’m one of those people who plays FotM.

Red Falcon.8257:

Reminds me when people cried about Bull->Frenzy->HB.
Backstab has been cried about for months and still untouched.
Anet said “we won’t nerf this, you will have to l2p”.
People l2p’d or quit. Complaints stopped.

This is the same story, there are hard counters to this build so you either l2p or quit.
It’s how GW2 works.
Else go back 2 blizzard where anything remotely brain-intensive to counter is nerfed to the ground.

Yeah, I remember those times. But, apparently, you can’t remember what happened after those complains.

- Frenzy was nerfed, in fact quickness was nerfed and its effect halved.
- Backstab combo was heavily nerfed. CnD damage was reduced, Mug damage doesn’t crit anymore

Every time people complained about something, it turned out to be OP in reality.

What you are failing to understand is that something that requires no brain to be performed souldn’t be brain-intensive to counter.

Sovereign.1093:

The hammer warrior is one of the oldest warrior builds out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53hxN-DOYbw

Hammer wise, warrior has been nerfed (recent patches)

Yeah, but Mace and Brawn has seen recent changes, right? Also, cleansing ire and healing signet are new too.

Red Falcon.8257:

Maybe try actually informing yourself instead of going down the easy path to ask for nerf?
Stability counters this build, and poison makes healing signet a joke.
If you run without stability in PvP it’s not this build’s fault.

You didn’t even try to ask for advice.
You came here with self-righteousness and know-it-all arrogance, then you complain you’re treated with the same manners?
I sense bad parenting.

I didn’t even try to ask for advice? Man, do you really think I didn’t tried everything I can to survive the current meta? Do you really think that I’ve just came up here from an hotjoin match after I’ve been killed by a Warrior and say they are OP? And, above all, do you really think that I’ve not tried to run stability + double stunbreaker?

EU meta is unplayable. Each team has at least one, most times two and even 3 and 4 warriors. SoloQ is overcrowded by them.

Not every profession farts stability like Guardians and Warriors do.

jayson.6512:

Oh yeah why not the devs give every class stability? And stun breaks while you can spam AoE condition then put a 5 sec swiftness too so we can kite the hammer mace/shield build. Play a warrior and learn how to counter its build i main a warrior but i also lose in wvw and pvp and i know if the player that i just killed is bad simple they dont dodge they just rush attack me even they see me switch to mace/shield BoOM skull crack. Free hits down then go to the forum warrior is OP. Tell you want there was a ranger that took 20 minutes but still i couldn’t kill him with insane hp regen and a mesmer that can always use his blink blink after i stun him so i just run away.

Yeah, I used to play Necromancer. I have spent 700+ hours on it, I know exactly every combo, every trait and every skill of that profession and I know exactly when to use any of its skills. I just have the profession under my fingers. But, you know, there is a point where you realize that two stunbreakers on 50s cooldown are not enough, nor your conditions or direct damage, because warriors are pretty much immune to both of them these days.

Then I rolled warrior, played a couple of SoloQ and now I’m in the leaderboards.
I didn’t even played a 10th of the time I’ve spend on Necromancer on Warrior, maybe 20 hours in total. I feel guilty for that, but looks like most people don’t.

They prefer to call everyone they kill by just rolling their face on the keyboard “bad player” and pretend that they are skilled.

jportell.2197:

Yes but even warriors can face tank melee and/or escape from melee while being able to hard counter conditions what bugs me is Anet once said they want warriors to tank through conditions and therefore they should have marginal Condi removal…. But then they gave them exceptional Condi removal. They are saying something similar for mesmers and well it just isn’t working anet should realize that by now

So your solution is admitting the warrior opness and buff mesmer until they are brought up to the same level of opness of warriors until conditions become again the sad joke of PvP because of the huge power creep of condition removals?

inb4 moved to thief forum and get eaten alive.

Mesmers are still OP, their damage is still insane.
Condition spec are slowly disappearing due to huge buff to condition removals and nerfs to conditions while Mesmer are day after day more popular.

After the patch, Mesmer will become FotM again.

We aren’t in condition meta anymore, don’t use it as an excuse to buff mesmers and to bring condition specs again into the oblivion.

Stealth is anyway barely used in sPvP. It is only useful to have Backstab available.
Giving it a counter is a nerf only to WvWvW thieves, which really needed it.

I don’t think that Sic Em will have an use in sPvP anyway.

NevirSayDie.6235:

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Well, killing is important when you’re killing on a point. Most newbies kill just of the sake of killing and ends up fighting in the middle of nowhere, not helping the team at all.

- Trinity: pure DPS comps have never been viable because you aren’t capable to properly hold points. In SoloQ, once you realize you have no defensive spec at all and your enemy has, you realize that you’ve probably lost that match, unless the enemy team is really really bad. This is pretty much what happened with monks back in GW1.

- Not pug-friendly: I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. Adding SoloQ with a pug-unfriendly gamemode is a good thing? It will only encourage syncing and creating frustrating situations.

- Conquest feel unrewarding: well, you know that you are way more useful to your team if you’re holding up a node against 2 people (and eventually die) but, sadly, you don’t feel rewarded by doing so.

- Hard to understand: exactly.

- Hard to balance: you are focused only on the thief part, but there are some PvE or WvWvW viable specs that are completely unviable in PvP because conquest mode does not encourage them. Trying to use the same balance for PvE, WvWvW and PvP adopting only conquest in PvP as competitive mode is not a good idea.

Bhawb.7408:

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• Conquest mode is PUG-unfriendly: not really. Some gamemodes encourage a shallower layer of cooperation that are more friendly for pugs. For instance, Deathmatch/Annihilation requires coordination, but probably only to focus up on a target, which does not require a VoiP, neither a lot of coordination. Conquest, as it is designed, really needs a VoiP and a good amount of communication to be successful at.

• Conquest mode is harder to understand: as I’ve pointed out, most people feels that killing enemies is the core mechanic of PvP. Still, conquest does not fits their needs. It happens that a team member is completely useless for his team because he’s trying to take a point held by a bunker without succeding at it, while, in that moment, he feels he’s having an awesome duel. There are several layers of deepness in conquest mode that, if not fully understood, they can heavily compromise your contribute to the team while there are other gamemodes that are way more forgiving to people who don’t understand them completely. It is not a good gamemode for newbies to start with and get used to PvP, that’s what I’m trying to say.

• Conquest mode only makes the game harder to balance: well, right now they are trying to balance PvP, PvE and WvWvW at the same time, without splitting skills that much. Some profession are intrinsically designed to be needed for a conquest gamemode (like guardian), which makes them unbalanced for that matter. Making competitive PvP a mixture of several gamemodes (like HA in GW1) makes the game easier to balance because if a profession has an advantage in a specific gamemode (bunker guardian in Conquest), won’t have the same advantage in another gamemode (annihilation). That means that teams are encouraged to run balanced and polyvalent builds in order to succeed in PvP. Balance will be only tied to shaving down clearly overperforming builds and buffing up underused builds, while now it is a contant struggle of professions to take their place in a PvP environment competing with each other.

Yeah, L2P here and L2P there said by people who none knows. Anyone here feels entitled to say L2P, because people are convinced to be the best players around and other players should always learn to play if they bring up a possible balance issue regarding their beloved profession. It’s not that I’ve already rerolled warrior in PvP because it is insanely easy to play and OP and I’m sick and tired to met 4-5 warriors at least in every SoloQ match.

Now I’m only expecting to get insulted by private message ingame by some mature warrior-forum frequenter.

Profession subforums have always been biased and most of topics moved from sPvP to profession subforums have always ended up with everyone disagreeing with the OP, even when something really turned out to be really overpowered. ALWAYS.

I don’t want to waste my time trying to argue with some people that will always find an excuse to justify their new toy.

Moving on.

Well, this thread is lost now that it is in the Warrior subforum. There is no space of an unbiased discussion anymore.

Thank you, mods. Great job as usual.

Diage.6451:

Actually, this is the reason (in my opinion) devs chose this, and it is because capture points are EXTREMELY easy to understand. You hold a point, and you get points. There are extra dynamics in it, but that’s about it. The extra dynamics are things that contribute to the skill cap, but the bigger problem with capture points is that there is practically 0 skill cap. This means that you pick it up easily, but you learn to master it just as easily.

I think you see people running in hot join and being generally bad at that and you mistake it for them being bad. In reality, they just most likely have different motives, like glory.

Capture points is not intuitive. When you first join in PvP what you’re willing to do is kicking some kitten and that’s what every newbie wants to do. They have to slowly get used to the fact that killing is not that important as capping and this process usually takes quite a lot time.

In SoloQ, it isn’t rare that people are caught fighting off points or try to cap a point they clearly can’t cap instead of going for another node which is probably a freecap. Those things are, at least for me, a signal of the fact that conquest is way harder to understand compared to Annihilation (kill the enemy team), KotH (take and hold the hill) or CtF (run the flag and bash the runner).

Daecollo.9578:

sorrow.2364:

Adris.1859:

Are you talking about 30/30/30/30/30 build ?

Nope, 0/10/30/0/30 build, which will turn into 0/10/30/30/0 after the buffs.

Are you … …

There is no way a 0/30/30/0 will be viable, DO you realize what exactly we give up?

You say we will still be able to stun, except you don’t play a warrior at all and don’t know that we…

Give up our damage
0/0/0/0/30 = Burst Skills don’t do 30% more damage and cost less, it also means that burst skills recharge 30% slower.. it also is another 30% critical damage, that is 60% less damage on burst skills RIGHT THERE

Give up some condition removal
10 seconds instead of 7 second recharge means cleansing ire will heal less.

Give up our stun and CC
I can only stun you every 10 seconds instead of every 7 seconds. This also again lowers our damage, because the less time your stunned the less criticals I can hit on you.

I see are a very uneducated whiner and complainer, your post shows that you know little to nothing about the warrior, game mechanics, and the game.

Shout Warriors are an entirely different spec that NEEDED love, because its an entirely different type of warrior and playstyle.

Now put this thread in its proper forum.

Yeah, you lose an insane 2 and 1/2 a second cooldown on burst and 30% crit damage while gaining insane party-wide condition removal and healing, 3000HP, permanent 3 stacks of might for your team AND fury on you.

Junkpile.7439:

I would use dodge, blind, fear. Plague is nice too.

Yeah, Plague. You survive for 20s, then you are dead for the rest of time.

You can’t fear a warrior. He’ll be on stability/berserker stance enough time to kill your.

Necromancers have only 3 blindness on insane cooldown. Even if you run them all, you can’t still survive to them.

Necromancers have the worse dodging capability of the game. You know that, right?

Amir.1570:

The CC is necessary (Why? Vigor, Evade frames, high AoE pressure such as engi and necro), the healing buff was necessary (Because Healing Surge was just better no matter how good you were), you know what isn’t necessary? Berserker Stance and being able to have more than one stun break on any class.

Sorrow, please if you’re going to be a “know it all” then know how to deal with the CC portion at least. You don’t even know the true problem.

That amount of CC is not necessary at all.
If you don’t have stability (hint: not any profession have it), stunbreakers aren’t enough to save you from the huge amount of stuns.

The healing buff was good, yeah, that is the point. Now that warriors have huge sustain, their insane CC capability needs to be looked at.

Hell, I can chain-CC someone indefinitely just switching between hammer and mace+shield. Stability is only the real counter, but only two professions have reliable access to it. Guardians and, guess who, Warriors.
A Ranger has some breathing while under Rampage as One.
An engineer is dead meat.
Same about Thief. If you catch them with a single stun, they are dead.
Mesmer can only survive a bit more thanks to their invulnerabilities. Same for Eles.
Necromancers have no chances.

I’d really like to know how to deal with the CC part as a Necromancer. Please, tell me how.

jportell.2197:

Ranger is still on more teams than mes/ele. The game has 8 classes nt 6

That’s not true at all.
Mesmer are pretty much in every match in soloq. Can’t say the same about rangers.

Daishi.6027:

I’ll take mid range to melee stuns over ranged AoE condi spam any day.

At least this is adaptable for other builds, maybe now we can have teams not running the same one class. Unfortunately we have a major rock, paper, scissors situation again. But at least eles and mesmers are allowed to play.

Plus this is the kind of thing that can be brought in line easier than condi. Sigil nerf, or strait duration reduction, or even new hybrid offensive/reduction rune sets.

It’s not great but I wouldn’t call it the worst.

Yeah, Eles and Mesmers are allowed to play, but professions with no/poor stability or cheap invulnerabilities aren’t allowed to play anymore.

Necromancers are slowly disappearing replaced by warriors, Spirit Rangers are rarer day after day and I’ll bet that Thieves will do the same after they shave down Larcenous Strike, which is the only thing holding them up in the meta.

Just wait the stun meta to establish and in a couple of week we’ll see at least 2 professions disappearing again.

Oni Link.4621:

About Burst skill cooldown: that is exactly what I wrote up there and what you quoted too. Why did you write it again? XD
About Berserker’s Stance: is your just a pessimist why or are you talking about a bug (conditions stopped even when longer than normal)?

Because I’ve said only that the cooldowns should be increased, Brawn should stay the same.

About Berserker’s Stance, it has survived a lot of patches with that “bug”, so probably it isn’t a bug but an intended feature.

Oni Link.4621:

You can’t tone down stuns too much. To put Skull Crack to 2s, you have to lower Hammer F1 to 1s, which is useless.
And I agree with you about the too high condition “immunity”. Warrior was lacking condition removal but now it has too many of it:

• Mending now 3 conditions (shouldn’t be touched)
• Cleansing Ire 3 conditions every 10s average (maybe tone down this, but I can’t see how; increasing Burst skill cooldown MAY be a solution but in this case then Brawn should be changed from 30% increased recharge rate to 45% cooldown reduction; with that change, normal Burst skill may be changed to 20s or so, but ONLY with Brawn change)
• Berserker’s Stance 8 to 10s of condition immunity (as far as I know, it decreases condition duration by its original duration; so if you have some condition duration bonus, you should be fine for those 8s, I can’t udnerstand why people complain about this so much, Engineer’s Automatic Response is far worse imho)
• Signet of Stamina total condition cleanse (no need for any change here)

Mending is fine.
Cleansing Ire is not, considering how low is the cooldown of burst skills.
The solution isn’t to tone down the stuns, but to give a reasonable cooldown to burst skills.

Skull Crack should be at least on 20-25s cooldown, same about Earthshaker. Those are really powerful skills and considering how fast a warrior can load up adrenaline, they are just insane.

Berserker’s Stance is broken too. If you have condition duration, conditions won’t pass the stance anyway. Automated Response is another insanely stupid trait and I’ve already said my opinion about it.

Oni Link.4621:

3s of Stun was also before with Sigil of Paralyzation. After the update, the max will be 3,45, nor more 4. So from then till now it increased by 0,kitten .
Cleansing Ire has nothing to do with stuns and damage.
Brawn doesn’t reduce cooldown, it increases the recharge rate (lame idea imho). And even if you put 30 points in that line (not worth, imho) you still get a reduction of 2s and a half (more or less).
People complains about Skull Crack, 100B but it was perfectly avilable even during beta. People complained about Bull’s Charge, Frenzy, 100B but then stopped because it was kitten easy to counter and they started realizing it.

People should think more about “how to counter” and post suggestion about that rather than “QQ, please nerf”.

Warriors finally became viable and you want to nerf them, again.
As you can see, ArenaNet started introducing counters to Stealth rather than nerfing Stealth itself.
By adding counters you give the players the possibility to plan a strategy. With nerfs you get nothing, only whining from nerfed class.

Oh, last note: if you want a fix/nerf/balance then you should suggest something. Writing “it’s OP” has no use.

Mace stun has been buffed, it is clear.

The real point is that warrior before the huge buff they received were kinda vulnerable to conditions and easy to take down. Now it’s not the case anymore. They are an insane unstoppable and unkillable force.

Nobody is complaining about Skull Crack + 100b, it is easy to avoid and predict.
I’m complaining about stunlocks, the huge amount of damage with insane survivability, especially the last part. Insane survivability.

People said that warriors were unviable even after the patch who made them OP. They didn’t have any time to meta to stabilize and to realize how OP they were and they keep buffed them.

They just need to tone down the amount of stuns they have and it will be fine. Is is just supid that you are incredibly vulnerable to stuns even with two stunbreakers.

Oni Link.4621:

Let me remind you that Warrior stuns and damage didn’t change much lately. Its condition removal and sustain improved but people on forums are complaining about stun-locks, which were available since launch (and many players used Hammer / Ace+Shield build since then).
It’s not the “meta of stunlock Warrior” the issue here. The issue is that no one complained about Warriors since now because no one was playing them.

Nope, a lot has been changed.
Mace stun was 1s lower, it was changed recently. It is the longest-lasting stun of warriors right now.
Cleansing Ire, also was added recently too. With the addition of Brawn now reducing burst cooldown and burst mastery increasing its damage, you can easily spam your burst-stuns, being pretty much immune to conditions.
Also, berserker stance and its stupid immunity to conditions is a new addition too.

And healing signet.

Arpheus.6918:

The good thing is now there won’t be only guardians offering AoE stability but also engineers. This might be a great change to handle these hammer trains.

Nope.
Giving hard counters to only specific professions won’t fix the problem.
It will only exacerbate the power creep this game has even more.

Adris.1859:

Are you talking about 30/30/30/30/30 build ?

Nope, 0/10/30/0/30 build, which will turn into 0/10/30/30/0 after the buffs.

Do you think that condition meta was horrible? WRONG!
Welcome to the stun meta, where condition-immune, 3200 armor 24k HP warriors are stunning you while dealing 4k damage per hit.

What it is funny is that the next patch, those warriors will become even more insane thanks to hammer and shout healing buffs. A step into the right direction, I’d say!

I really hope ArenaNet is aware that the meta is even worse compared to what it was a month ago.

We’re now at the apex of warrior OPness. OP in PvE, OP in WvW, OP in PvP. Yeah, they definitely need a buff.

The vampiric master won’t have a damage part.
Imagine all of your minion’s damage buffed by straight 100 damage per hit… that would be insane.

Are we serious here?
Now developers “main” a profession and guardians are supposed to be passively immune to conditions?

Relentliss.2170:

I think when a pvp game is reduced to skillessly spamming a single button at a person or a series of circles on the ground its pretty skilless.

I am tired of condition spam. As soon as you take them off they are reapplied in mere seconds.

Please fix.

Any class with a big health pool and a strong condition build is pretty much godmode.

Its no surprise to me Peters is well known for playing a Necromancer. Its just too funny.

This is a stupid, senseless rant.
This game has been all about spam since release and Peters is not well known for playing a Necromancer at all. He’s playing it in this period just to figure out how to tune it properly, before the June patch, none has seen him playing Necro except maybe one time.

I see you’re playing guardian. Do you really think that guardian isn’t all about boon spam either?

naphack.9346:

Well, I forgot about that buff where Air Signet became a stun breaker.
Still, the blind is better applied in an area around the caster than in an area around a target. Area around target may require you to switch targets, may fail due to line of sight issues or fail otherwise. Area around yourself will always do whakittens supposed to do. It’s easy to land and never requires target shuffling.

That’s false.
Blind is better in an area around the target (+ the target itself), since it allows more versatility.

Berserker > Assassin, especially when you are spending at least 30 points into Critical Strikes.

Zacchary.6183:

sorrow.2364:

Are you kidding?
The Thief signets are actually the best in the game for several reasons.

1. Every signet is on a 30s cooldown.
2. Signet boosting traits are on the Critical Strike traitline, which is the must go traitline for most thieves.
3. Their effects are amazing, both passive and active.
4. Signet-related traits on thief are the best in class.

Thief is the only profession with viable signets, tbh.
I dare you to find any other signet you’ve listed used in any gamemode.

Your suggestions, also, are borderline OP.

I think you must be the one kidding.

Our signet related traits are what would make anyone even consider using them. Most of them lack utility or practicality in the active department because they can be replaced with other things (ie. Cloaked in Shadow vs SoS for blinds). Seriously, try them with and without traits and you’ll see a big difference.

The only ones that I would use regardless if I am traited or not are SoA and IS. I would use Infiltrator’s Signet mainly for the stun break. However, Haste feels like a better stun break than IS(especially with s/x) because that signet + Infiltrator’s strike makes up for it and then some.

Signet of Agility is probably one of the best thieves got because of the AoE endurance regen. The condition cleanse is the underwhelming part however. Even if it didn’t have a condition cleanse, I would still use it for extra dodging because that’s really it’s only redeeming quality imo.

Seriously though, look at the rest of them and tell me you cannot do better?

Signet of Malice is fine. It is on the line between being OP and being fine. Its passive effect is pretty amazing, especially when combined with sword. A single pistol whip can heal you for pretty high amount of health in any gamemode and it is quite popular among more survivability-oriented thief. I see no reason to buff its active effect making it instant cast or giving it some crazy OP condition transfer on 15s cooldown, or even 12s. Considering how fast it recharges and that it is an healing skill (which means that it triggers all of those on-healing effects), the active is fine as it is.

Signet of Shadow blind is useful. It can’t be compared with Cloaked in Shadow simply because it isn’t instant cast (even Blinding Powder will break your stomp). The AoE blind of SoS helps you to save your kitten when stunlocked by a warrior or prevent a stomp-breaker on your enemy. The passive movement increase, also, is pretty kitten

assin Signet, has many people have pointed out, is extremely useful in high power/burst builds and it is the only environment it really has an use. There is no need to make a clearly power-oriented signet good for every build. Your proposal, also, is crazy OP.

evilapprentice.6379:

Assassins Sig is kitten CD, and could use an update (not necessarily a buff). As people pointed out when Signets went from 90 stat points to 180, Assassins active is now a very, very minor boost compared to the passive, followed by 45s(36s traited) seconds of lost power. Assassins sig doesn’t need to be made more powerful persay, but the active needs to be reconfigured a bit to be worth using more generally.

Well, to be honest, Assassin Signet active isn’t a minor boost over the passive.
The percentage damage increase means that the damage boost is significantly higher on high damaging skills, which thief has quite a few.

Also, when traited with critical strikes, the power loss is completely cancelled by the might stacks gained.

It is a burst-friendly signet, it is quite obvious. Nobody wants to get back to the 15k backstab age.

Are you kidding?
The Thief signets are actually the best in the game for several reasons.

1. Every signet is on a 30s cooldown.
2. Signet boosting traits are on the Critical Strike traitline, which is the must go traitline for most thieves.
3. Their effects are amazing, both passive and active.
4. Signet-related traits on thief are the best in class.

Thief is the only profession with viable signets, tbh.
I dare you to find any other signet you’ve listed used in any gamemode.

Your suggestions, also, are borderline OP.

Leuca.5732:

A traited GS gets a 4.8 second CD on Maul. If GS receives other QoL adjustments it needs, adding a blast finisher will definitely make GS too appealing.

GS already has multiple finishers; leap and projectile, and these are not overtly problematic by themselves. Thief D/D (I think thieves have a terrible design to begin with) at least doesn’t have a blast finisher, which is a very reliable and efficient aoe, and whirl finishers are pretty insignificant due to their usually short duration as well as unpredictability of the finisher effects.

What you are saying is that we should compound upon the problem of weapons having a lot of finishers by adding another one instead of fixing core problems the weapon will have regardless.

Thief can easily have a cheap blast finisher by picking Shortbow as secondary set, which is mandatory anyway in most thieves build. That’s 4 cheap finishers in 2 weapon sets.

It is all a matter of where they want to bring GS for rangers.
If they designed it as a support/defensive weapon, then a blast finisher on Maul is the best choice.
If they designed it as an offensive weapon, then a vulnerability boost on Maul is the way to go.

Both choices are good, it is all a matter of where the Devs want the weapon to be.