Guild Wars 2

Ashanor.5319:

Yes, and many non warrior players who aren’t bad don’t have problems with warrior either. Of course “Excalibur”, players like yourself are excluded from this. Do you even sPvP because last time you were whining about warrior you were a bad and undergeared WvW S/D thief. Mind posting your PvP stats?

Most players from any gamemode have problem with warriors, even competent players.

Also, attacking personally someone is a sign of the lack of arguments.
I think you should focus on his arguments instead of striving to prove your interlocutor unreliability.

Bring some AoE.
Oh, right, you’re running an imbalanced facerolling build, so nevermind that a build is even more facerolling than yours.

silvermember.8941:

Leuca.5732:

Don’t get your hopes up. Balance every 2-4 weeks (as it should be) is not Anet’s current battle plan.

Do they even have a battle plan?

More living story.

Zaishen Keys.

/thread

Elementalist is not bad, it is just overshadowed by op professions. It is kinda effective and a lot of fun to play.
But anyway, of you want to abuse, go warrior eyes closed.

Lopez.7369:

I’m OK with you not getting how to counter warriors as a necromancer. Not every player is going to have the skill or knowledge to deal with the class. It is sad how defeatist your mentality appears to be, however. I’m just curious how you justify higher-rated players succeeding where you apparently cannot.

I agree that other classes’ condition builds need to be brought up to par with rangers, engineers and necromancers. Maybe they need more traits like Dhuumfire to help.

Right, I think we finished here with you calling me unskilled and you being the good player succeeding because of arcane magic tricks and pillar-dragging positioning.

I justify higher-rated players succeeding because, luckly enough, PvP is not yet only about warriors, but the trend is going that way.
Last tournament showed where PvP is going and there is no “positioning” or “cooldowns” to deny that.

Are you seriously OK with adding more automated condition spam professions into the game? Wasn’t that the reason of why half of the decent competitive teams of this game has left?

unleashed.8679:

It is bad that you aren’t listening to whyme anymore, because he is right. There are so many examples in here, that show that condition damage has a lot of disadvantages against direct damage and the damage output is smaller and you think it they are all not comparable, but they are.

Where is the difference between hitting you with instant 3k or hit you with 500 + 2,5k over 5s from conditions? Both deals 3k damage while the conditions can be cleansed, you have more time to heal yourself, …

The only difference is there are not much attacks that apply such strong conditions. Where a lot of power builds are able to hit with 3k and more every second.

This is just not true.
Hitting for 3k every second reliably is pure fantasy in real situations, while hitting for 500+2.5k every 2 seconds or so is much more possible with conditions.

Lopez.7369:

sorrow.2364:

…

Proper positioning isn’t just about keeping a gap. It’s also about dragging opponents into bad spots. So that warrior might be able to get on the necromancer whenever he wants, but if the necromancer is smart, that will also involve dragging him into other teammates. It could also involve pulling him behind some sort of pillar or wall, where a necromancer can easily kill a warrior uninterrupted.

Greater Marks and Bashee’s Wail are worse than Chill of Death and probably Signet Mastery. (Most would prefer Master of Corruption if they went 30 points into Curses, anyway. Not that many condition necromancers use warhorn in the first place.)

Anyway, the basis for this thread has been thoroughly debunked. I also think the developers also understand that conditions are settling in a good spot, so it’s just a matter of shaving warriors and perhaps spirit rangers at this point. No excessive changes to the fundamentals are necessary.

Dragging a warrior on other teammates does not mean losing the focus. Warrior is usually a low-priority target because it is far from squishy.
As I’ve said, losing the focus of a Warriors is hard to impossible and I’ve explained skill-wise and trait-wise why I’m saying that. You, on the other hand, look quite vague about those counters to Warriors.

Greater Marks and Banshee’s Wail being worse than Chill of Death and Signet Mastery is a matter of opinions. Having unblockable marks is a great gain, as much as having higher Locust Swarm uptime (to have proper LF generation).

Conditions aren’t in a good spot. There are only 3 professions with viable condition builds over 8 available professions, in which one of them is arguably on the OP side. I wouldn’t call it “good spot”.

whyme.3281:

I felt of my chair laughing about the thing you wrote.

Your arguments absolutly make no sense. They are both on crit effects, they deal both bonus damage. To deal this damage I have to land an critical hit. The diference is, one makes his damage instant, the other one over 4 seconds and can be cleansed or blocked by another burn.

That you think conditions are fire and forget, you should be banned from every discussion of balancing conditions. You have no idea of how conditions work. You can compare them with an direct damage atack, but with two differences:

• they ignore thoughness
• they deal their damage over time so there is a delay

got it?

I could start with some examples of an auto atack of necro scepter that deals about 1-2k (3-4 with dhuumfire) dmg, but I dont think you would understand the math.

Going arrogant and aggressive won’t make your arguments more valuable. I’m just ignoring you from now on.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Sigil of fire deals more single target damage if it procs more than once per 10 seconds or if part of the burn is wasted. Let’s say that sigil of fire procs on average every 8 seconds for 1000 damage to a single target (not unreasonable). That’s a sustained dps increase of exactly 120/sec.

Let’s say dhuumfire procs every 11 seconds, or exactly on cooldown. A 2-second burn is about 1200 damage. That’s a sustained dps increase of 109/sec.

I’m not talking about active participation. You don’t have to have active participation to get a sigil of fire proc, either. Conditions don’t do inherently more damage because they are dots; it only seems that they do more damage if you get a lot of them on you at the same time. A 2-second burn will never do more than about 1200 damage, unless you have crazy might stacks. That’s no different from a power attack that does 1200 damage.

IP is longer than dhuumfire but in real-life situations, cleansing, wasting on already-burning targets, and wasting on npc’s will cut its damage drastically. Likewise, if sigil of fire ever hits two targets, it will instantly do as much damage as IP in perfect scenarios. 1000 damage instantly is also better than 1000 damage over time; for example, vs. a regen warrior, perma burning and 1-4 stacks of bleed, if never cleansed, would just keep pace with healing signet, adrenal health and banner regen, depending on healing power/condition damage values—just because it would take 1 second for the burn/bleed to inflict their damage. In that same period of time, the warrior would regen the same amount of damage.

Edit: oh and sigil of earth is horrible. Given +30% condi duration and 100% crit chance, it would still only put out less than 200 single target dps. With 50% crit chance you’d be looking at a flat increase of maybe 95dps, single target, cleansable. If any of those bleed stacks get cleansed, you’re looking at something like an increase of 50 damage per second.

You are comparing single target damage with multiple target damage too easily.
Single target and multiple target damage can’t be compared directly, there are so many variables to take into consideration that you can’t just sum the damage you would do on multiple targets and compare it to the damage dealt to a single target.

You are assuming that conditions are cleansed right after they are applied. That’s not the case as I’ve pointed out multiple times. Burning is applied once every 10-11s, which means that the chances that it is covered right after it procs are extremely high, meaning that it is fairly easy that it will last for the whole duration.

As I’ve already pointed out, a comparison of burst damage and damage over time can’t be made so easily.
There are so many dead times in which burst profession is not dealing damage while condition is. A dodge, for instance, is a 3/4 of dead time. A stun is another 1-2s of dead time. An healing skill cast is another dead time.
In those dead time, burning is still taking effects while Sigil of Fire is not proccing.

And this is just one of the multiple reasons of why direct comparison with burst damage makes no sense. Another reason is, in fact, condition cleansing. Another is the fact that burst professions are way more glassy. Another reason is that condition damage stacks with previous applied conditions, while burst damage is linear.

Lopez.7369:

A team built around countering conditions would fall over to the one or two power builds in the typical team. That’s why the meta balances out to balanced comps in the end. That’s sort of what I’m getting at by pointing out hybrid builds are worthless. (Keep in mind that, with the way stats scale in the game, hybrid builds are not just 50 percent power and condition. They’re actually more like 30 percent power and 40 percent condition.)

I actually explained exactly how a condition necromancer deals with warriors just fine. It’s all about keeping range and maintaining cooldowns for when the warrior does get close.

The problem is most necromancers seem to smash their cooldowns, including Death Shroud, and have terrible positioning. You see this even in tournaments, where practically every necromancer spends half the match getting focused or dead because, for whatever reason, they all run into melee range. (One high-rated necromancer once called this his “play style” in a podcast, which made absolutely no sense. A ranged class’s play style can’t be constantly forfeiting the biggest advantage it has.)

That’s not to say there aren’t good times to piano cooldowns and run into melee range, but treading carefully when a warrior is around is a good idea.

That’s also not to say that warriors couldn’t use a few tweaks. Berserker Stance could be reduced to 6 seconds without traits. I also think they should revisit the concept of Berserker Stance and Automated Response only reducing condition duration by 100 percent, not granting immunity altogether.

But the notion that warriors make the game impossible is more a fault in perception and skill than reality.

Dhuumfire is absolutely taken in every high-end condition build, and it’s not just the 30-point trait and condition duration. It’s also Signet Mastery and Chill of Death, which are amazing traits by themselves. (Some people also point to the power and Death into Life, but I think both of those are too small to consider.)

As an aside, do you really not consider higher-rated players experiences when shaping your opinions and perspective? I know that if I played mesmer, I would absolutely consider Supcutie’s opinion as superior to mine. If I played engineer, I would look to Ostrich Eggs and my husband. And on and on. I’m not really sure how anyone couldn’t approach higher-rated players in that way unless egos are getting in the way.

I prefer to leave the hybrid build topic away, since we are going too deep into the theorycrafting spiral, leading to nothing.

What you explained to be a counter to Warriors, well, it’s not. Of course every profession is insanely survivable if it’s at safe distance under the focus of none, but that is not a valid argument, at all.
If a Warrior wants to focus the Necromancer, he will. There is no way to properly create a gap with a warrior, because of Earthshaker being a snare-ignoring leap and the constant condition removals through Longbow and Hammer. The only tools Necromancer have to create a gap is through slowing down the enemy, which is something that warriors are pretty much immune to.

I’m not saying that Warriors make the game impossible to Necromancers, I’m saying that they make the game hard to the point that it’s not worth to run them anymore. Going Engineer or Ranger is a way safer choice.

About Spite: going in that traitline means giving up on Greater Marks and Banshee’s Wail. Quite a big loss considering that the only gain is Chill of Death and Signet Mastery for Signet of Spite only.

About opinions: I think I have a brain and I am supposed to use it. If someone says something which makes sense to me, I take that as valid regardless of who is saying that thing. Humanity has gone over the “ipse dixit” philosophy in the middle age.

NevirSayDie.6235:

cut

Bonus burst damage and bonus condition damage are two different beasts.

Condition damage bonus stacks up with the other conditions and works as a cover to them too. That means that if you proc Sigil of Fire, it doesn’t mean that the other attacks are most likely landing.

Condition damage doesn’t require active partecipation to the player in order to archieve the maximum damage output. Once the burning procs once, you can forget about it. You can be CCed, blinded, dodging or play defensively if needed and still dealing damage.

Conditions requires only condition damage as stat, while burst needs power, precision and critical damage to be effective, meaning that burst profession will be most likely more glassy and so attacking to keep the proc-rate high is more risky.

In particular, Sigil of Fire is more effective on the hypothetical situation that you manage to land it on multiple enemies. Dhuumfire and IR deals way higher single target damage.

A more proper comparison with Sigil of Fire would be Sigil of Earth, not Dhuumfire nor IR.

NevirSayDie.6235:

You’re doing pretty good at 1vX forum warring! I tip my hat.

How do you feel about sigil of fire? It functions the exact same way as dhuumfire or IP except it’s AoE, can’t be cleansed or wasted on already-burning targets, and has half the cooldown. It’s just…small, unavoidable, bonus damage.

Also, don’t be surprised that people are focused on balance. I understand that you’re talking about the mechanic itself; but people generally don’t see any need to change a mechanic when it’s not perceived as too powerful or too weak. If I were a dev, I’d also hesitate to change something that’s reached a good balance point just because I thought the mechanic should be a little more elegantly designed.

Dhuumfire pre-nerf and IP deals overall way more damage compared to Sigil of Fire.
It works pretty much like Sigil of Force, except that you have to rely on RNG to trigger its effect. Not a real problem since it is just a bonus damage which makes sense only on burst builds, where avoiding the burst is what you’re wanting to do anyway.

A flame blast triggering on an autoattack is useless while it is extremely useful during an Hundred Blades, while a Dhuumfire/IR trigger is always tricky.

Lopez.7369:

…

Hybrid build has its own sense.
Burst and conditions have their own counters, building hybrid means dividing the risk through diversification.

If you meet a team comp built around countering conditions, all of your condition builds effectiveness is greatly reduced. If you meet a team built around countering direct damage, then all of your direct damage builds are less effective. That does not apply to hybrid build, who are less harmed by direct counters.
This reasoning makes even more sense when we consider that the only competitive mode in GW2 is conquest which encourages splitting and small scale combats.

Building balanced should be a viable alternative as much as building imbalanced. If balanced isn’t viable, then there is a… well… balancing issue.

About Necromancers, mentioning you experience as a proof won’t prove any point.
I’ve listed multiple reasons of why Warriors crush Necromancers, even the last tournament representation shows that something is happening.
Saying that you’re doing fine with Necromancer against Warriors, as you may imagine, won’t convince me that Necromancers aren’t being crushed by Warriors because, as far as I know, I consider my experience more valuable compared to a stranger’s one.

A logical argument that actually makes sensewould, on the other hand, convince me that Necromancers actually do fine against Warriors and that I’ve probably learned nothing in the 700 hours I’ve spent playing Necromancer.

As the facts stand, the warrior meta build has everything Necromancers hate. High stability uptime (which means no fear damage), condition immunity, great condition cleansing through Cleansing Ire (3 conditions every 5-6 seconds with constant weapon swapping), high HP pool to soak up condition damage, CC to lock down the stability-lacking Necromancer and a lot of direct damage to kill that squishy light-armoured scholar.

The fact that Dhuumfire is taken in every condition build is something you are claiming here, right now, without any factual consideration. The spite traitline offers only condition duration and burning alone isn’t enough condition coverage considering that it lasts only 3s. Otherwise, running 30 in spite, you’re giving up on higher condition damage, Banshee’s Wail and some traitpoints spent for defensive purposes (maybe in Death Magic for staff?). The traitpoint investment and the potential loss is not worth the gain.

I Bud.7593:

If you meant the new Signet of Fire active effect, then yeh it’s powerful, but only against a badly positioned group of enemies inside a small radius. Punishes bad play, and rewards a well timed execution, a nice interesting signet active in my opinion

That’s the point.
In sPvP enemies are forced to ball up on nodes in order to prevent capping.
Being able to deal such a massive amount of AoE damage, especially considering how common are AI entities right now, is quite a bit over the top.

A mesmer would be punished only because it used clones/phantasms as a Necromancer would be punished for using minions.

Something would be kinda OP, for instance dagger offhand has too much control and the sunspot mechanic might be kinda OP when paired with the Fresh Air burst imho, but most of them are awesome changes.

Hope ANet notice them.

Lopez.7369:

Hybrid builds are never going to be viable because there’s no reason to fill a team slot with what’s essentially a role-less player. The entire point of setting up a team is getting specialized builds that bounce off each other to get a bunch of people that are really good at what they need to do. (This is the case in every MMO. People only think hybrid builds are viable until the developers add a competitive mode and suddenly people are forced to scrap their useless builds because people can witness the objectively poor results.)

By the way, necromancers are not crushed by a single warrior. If a necromancer really feels that’s the case, he probably has terrible positioning and teammates.

There seems to be a constant contradiction in this thread: One one hand, you say necromancers are too weak. On the other, you’re asking to directly nerf them. Bizarre.

I don’t know if you are serious or not, but your logic seems kinda flawed and baseless to me.

Hybrid builds have a role, that role is sustained DPS damage. The only difference between hybrid builds and any general sustained DPS profession is that the damage output of hybrid builds come from both conditions and direct damage.
Hybrid builds aren’t unviable because they don’t fit any role, the dps role is in any competitive team. Hybrid builds are unviable because they don’t apply the conditions at the same pace of full conditions builds while everyone is built to survive to full condition builds. That means that going hybrid is equivalet to cutting half of your damage for no reason, because the conditions you apply aren’t enough to overcome the cleanses.

I don’t know if you ever tried an hybrid build, but what will most likely happens is that you won’t have enough condition uptime on your enemy while direct damage doesn’t provide enough pressure alone.

Necromancers are crushed by a single warrior, unless they pop Plague or they are far away from the fight (probably what you call “good positioning”). But once the warrior catches up, they are dead. The amount of stuns paired with the pressure and the condition immunity makes Necromancers dead meat. No way to fear them away, snare them or apply weakness.

There is no contraddiction at all in this thread. You are failing to distinguish what I’m saying.
I’ll sum them up to clean every misunderstanding.

1. Necromancers are underpowered survivability-wise. Nobody has asked for a nerf in this aspect.
2. Necromancers were OP when Dhuumfire lasted 4s damage-wise. I took that as an example of bad burning application.
3. Necromancers do not need burning since they already have terror as a bursty condition.
4. Dhuumfire right now is only an useless bad designed trait. The 2s uptime of burning doesn’t make it worth the traitpoints spent into the Spite traitline. It is better to have it completely removed and replaced with something else since, as I’ve already said multiple times, it will always be either UP or OP and Necromancers aren’t in need of a bursty condition.

And that is regarding necromancers.
If you have further understanding problems, point me out what’s not clear.

whyme.3281:

because they did too low damage, compared to any other class.

Their damage was far from low, though.
Most Necromancers who played before the june patch knows that, I know that too. Terrormancer was quite strong even before the june patch, but their survivability was extremely lacking.

whyme.3281:

Its the last condition that is applied, that is cleansed first, so if you wait 3 seconds and cleanse then, your fault. It is unimportant which build can apply how many conditions, what counts is, that they can be cleansed, and a cleansed condition means less effect.

Dhuumfire procs on a skill cast, so does sun spirit and incendiary powder. Burning is applied already covered, not to say that it doesn’t take 3 seconds to have another condition applied.

whyme.3281:

There will always be a condition dealing the most damage, if we remove one, another will deal the most damage, should we remove this too? Bleed has the potential to deal the most damage, because everyone can apply it with ease and it stacks up to 25 times, not in duration like the rest.

I can repeat myself, we can talk about specific skills and discuss if they are unbalanced but not about “remove the strongest condition out of the game” (but Im pretty sure you didnt said/meant that either).

get clear what you want to adress with your thread, it doesnt matter what people are saying, everything is wrong in your oppinion unless they dont write things like “+1, totaly true”. There is no red line in any of your posts in this thread.
You say, that the problem of conditions is burning name two exapmles and call them broken, later they arent anymore, its something completely different (spirit ranger). If we try to compare conditions with direct damage, we aren’t allowed to, because its not what you want to hear.
If someone wants to explain mistakes in your theory, they dont understand the problem, I think you dont either.

Again, what do you want to address with your post? because it cant be burning.

Nobody here has said that he wants burning removed.
You are tilting at windmills.

I’m suggesting to reduce the uptime of burning and to tie its application to clearly teleghraphed skills. I’ve brough the example of Throw Torch multiple times as a good way to add burning.
The issue is not burning itself, but the fact that you can mantain it for so much time that it deals even more damage compared to bleed stacks at a way lower cost. Burning on condition build is supposed to be a bursty addition to bleeding for a short period of time, not the main source of condition damage.

Bleeding has to be built to deal maximum damage through multiple skill casts, burning deals the maximum damage right after its application. Bleeding deals the maximum damage for a really short period of time since stacks tends to end as soon as the cap is reached, Burning deals the maximum damage right after its application.
There is a clear difference in opportunity cost between burning and bleeding.

It is good that condition builds have a way to deal higher damage but only for a short time and easily counterable.

Necromancers have Terror doing the job, which is exactly how it is supposed to be. They don’t need burning at all.

Engineer have confusion and also a little bit of burning too, since confusion it isn’t enough most times. They would be fine if they had their incendiary powder trait removed.

Rangers have a bit higher access to burning compared to Engineer because they lack confusion, but right now they can easily mantain it premanently through Sun Spirit. They should simply swap the active and the passive effect of the spirit.

There we go, now burning is fine on condition professions and they are all equally viable.

Brew Pinch.5731:

…These forums.

Does anyone realise that a power/crit auto-attacks hit near 3 times the damage of burning per second?

Does anyone realise Engineer have the weakest auto-attacks in game?

Does anyone realise Dhuumfire is a grandmaster trait in a power tree?

The hyperbole in this thread…

Why people jump in the topic without reading a single line of it?
This has been addressed multiple times and we’re not going to address this again.

whyme.3281:

@sorrow: so dhummfire instandkilled everyone, it wasnt terror (fear) that made necros OP.

And dont try to tell me, that a skill with 40% uptime of burning can reapply burning, right after it is cleansed. Even with 80% this is impossible.

I wonder why Necromancers were greatly underused before the Dhuumfire introduction even if Terror dealt way more damage as it is doing now.

Necromancer, along with burning, have fear, poison, bleeding, chill, weakness, cripple and torment. The chances you’re cleansing burning are fairly low.

Spirit Rangers and Engineers, on the other hand, can reapply burning on a regular basis because of spirit procs and bomb. Play some PvP and check which is the most damaging conditions in death briefing.
We aren’t talking about Necromancers only, in case you didn’t know that.

whyme.3281:

First you say, we are all talking off topic and should read post #1 and now your last post, saying something completly different?

Dhuumfire was nerfed, but is the most broken mechanik that you point at in your first post and in the end, its UP? i mean what are you talking about?

reorder your thoughts and come back, this makes absolutly no sence at all.

And by the way, it doesnt matter if burning isnt cleansed first, it can be cleansed, that counts. (I dont know the exact order right now but what does more damage? 8+ bleeds or burning?)

You are missing the point.
We aren’t talking about overpowered and underpowered, nerf here and buff there.
We are talking about flawed concepts vs good concepts and how burning fits condition builds.

Dhuumfire is a bad concept and I rightfully pointed out in the OP. They nerfed the burning duration in order to make it nearly useless for a grandmaster trait, but even that, it still is a bad designed trait which doesn’t fit at all into Necromancers. Back when it was 4s duration, it was a broken OP trait, simple and clear.
To give you an example to make easier to understand what I mean, let’s consider a skill that has 2% chance to instantly kill your opponent. It is obviously useless but it is still a badly designed skill. What if you increase the chances to 20%? It would be insanely OP. There isn’t a sweet spot in which those kind of skills are balanced, they are either OP or UP.

Understood?

About burning cleansing, the time you have cleansed it, it is reapplied.

Don’t lead the topic to a direct damage vs condition damage debate.
Condition damage is pressure, direct damage is burst/pressure.
Comparing burst to pressure leads to nothing, they both have their role and their importance into fights. The issue starts when pressure is as strong or a bit weaker compared to bursts on short time intervals.

whyme.3281:

sorrow.2364:

Lopez.7369:

Right. Nerfing burning’s would nerf condition builds. It’s also unnecessary at this point.

You’re exaggerating the effect warriors have on condition necromancers in the meta. A balanced comp can use a condition necromancer really well by countering the warrior through other means. (I would also say that most of the teams with necromancers in today’s tournaments played poorly, whether they were using a power or condition build.)

Meta warriors are pretty much everything necromancers hate.
High stability uptime, huge health pool, condition immunity, crazy condition cleansing through cleansing ire and massive amounts of CCs. As a Necromancer, there is no way to counter warriors at all, unless the warrior is really bad.

You are proving again that you haven’t read the topic. I’m asking to remove the permanent burning uptime through passive traits in favour of avoidable non-permanent telegraphed skills, like Throw Torch.

You dont know what you are talking about, Dhuumfire has an uptime of 2 second every 10 seconds, thats 20% with condition duration, you get up to 4s = 40%. And these uptime is even lower, because you have to crit right after the iCD of 10 sec is over. <40% is not even close to permanent. grandmaster trait

Incendiary Powder on the other hand, has an uptime of 40-80% which is discuss able for an adept trait

Rangers sun spirit need a grandmaster trait to be effective (thats min. 200 less condi dmg or 20% less duration) and they can be killed ~10k live with trait. maybe the burning it applies lasts too long, but again, this is discussable.

But conditions and burning arent too strong. They are fine and can be cleansed, so where is the problem?

We can discuss that some skills need to be rebalanced or numbers tweaked. But stop this stupid risk/reward and conditions are too stong bs.

What is the problem with a 7k burn over 10seconds compared to a warrior F1 which hits you for the same amount instant? The big difference is, that i have <1sec vs 10sec time to react on that damage.

Read my previous post.

Dhuumfire has already been nerfed and now it is nearly useless. It should have never been exsisted. I wanted just to analyze why Dhuumfire (when it was 4s) made Necro so OP.

The only difference between 7k burn and 7k eviscerate is that I can dodge the 7k eviscerate, I can’t dodge the 7k burn application. Also, you seem to be convinced that once you apply burning, there are no other cover conditions applied and as soon as you use your condition cleansing, burning is cleansed first. Well, that’s not the case.

Lopez.7369:

I think you’re a little too stuck on that narrative. Just because I disagree with your idea doesn’t mean I haven’t read it.

Burning is in no way permanent. There’s enough condition cleansing in this game to cope with it. That’s why it’s not a problem.

Condition necromancers aren’t supposed to plow through warriors by themselves. That’s why they have teammates. (By the way, a warrior’s stability is usually to the necromancer’s advantage.)

The only reason we don’t have 3 condition builds per team is because condition cleansing is a lot. ANet went for the easy way to balance conditions: buffing condition cleansing in order to make them counter heavy condition build.

It is an uneffective solution because it results into making mild condition builds and hybrid builds unviable just to bring heavy condition builds inline.
How many hybrid builds have you seen lately? How many condition thieves (which are known to have few conditions access compared to other condition professions)?

I’m not asking for a further nerf to conditions, I’m giving ANet another solution to conditions which doesn’t kill any non-heavy condition build, an alternative to the buffs to condition cleansing.

About Necromancers, you can clearly see that few teams are running them because they are crushed by a focus of a single warrior. No team will bring a profession which is destroyed by a meta build.

Lopez.7369:

Right. Nerfing burning’s would nerf condition builds. It’s also unnecessary at this point.

You’re exaggerating the effect warriors have on condition necromancers in the meta. A balanced comp can use a condition necromancer really well by countering the warrior through other means. (I would also say that most of the teams with necromancers in today’s tournaments played poorly, whether they were using a power or condition build.)

Meta warriors are pretty much everything necromancers hate.
High stability uptime, huge health pool, condition immunity, crazy condition cleansing through cleansing ire and massive amounts of CCs. As a Necromancer, there is no way to counter warriors at all, unless the warrior is really bad.

You are proving again that you haven’t read the topic. I’m asking to remove the permanent burning uptime through passive traits in favour of avoidable non-permanent telegraphed skills, like Throw Torch.

Lopez.7369:

Conditions aren’t “too bad,” though. I run a condition necromancer and do really well. (Also, it’s not necessarily that necromancers are being pushed out; it’s that some condition necromancers are now going power.)

The issue before was that people took far too long to adapt and equip more condition cleansing. Now that they have, comps are more balanced and varied.

You’re not fooling anyone, by the way. We both know this thread was made because 90 percent of this forum still thinks we’re in a “condition meta.”

Necromancer will be completely kicked out from meta by warriors, it is just a matter of time.

The King of the Mist tournament has only few necromancers while a overabundance of spirit ranger, warriors and a fair amount of HGH.

If you took few minutes to read at least the OP, you would have known that this thread is not about “nerf condition” but burning in particular.

I know we aren’t anymore in condition meta, I know we are in warrior meta for a month now. That doesn’t mean that burning doesn’t need to be addressed.

Lopez.7369:

Nerfing conditions when they’re being pushed out of the meta makes no sense. You guys are just behind.

Apparently, you didn’t read the topic at all and you just wanted to go arrogant.

The purpose of this topic is to find the reason of why conditions were OP and to find the sweet spot in which conditions aren’t too strong neither too bad. The fact that they are being pushed out of the meta is a flat out lie, even if it matters somehow.

Necromancers are being pushed out of the meta, not conditions.
Spirit ranger is still present in every competitive team.
Guess which one can provide team-wide permanent burning?

Lopez.7369:

It’s kind of ridiculous how behind these forums are. The top teams are replacing their condition necromancers with power builds, and even before that warriors were keeping conditions in check. Yet here we are, and players in the 50 percentile continue complaining about conditions.

Have you at least read the OP?
Are you trying to say that burning is out of the meta now or you just wanted to go arrogant?

I see this change as something different, just a test.

They probably want to add ways for PvP players to gain gold unifying the reward system across the whole game and they will probably do so not adding direct gold as reward but valuable items, so they won’t completely devalue the currency.

But before they do so, they are probably testing how tPvP rewards will affect the overall economy by adding temporary items as a reward, so if this change will let the price of said item fall, it isn’t a real issue because that item will be out of the market as soon as the event ends.

As you can see here, the addition of ToT bags as reward didn’t left the market unchanged.
http://www.guildwarstrade.com/item/36038-trick-or-treat-bag

EverythingEnds.4261:

And how long did it take you to get enough mats for 250 dyes?
250 dyes need ~ 2500 Arcane powders.
By a rate of 5 powder / salvage, this are 500 items to salvage and by 5 items / chest this are still 100 chests. Not to mentions, that you probably wont win 100 games in a row.
By calculating a win-rate of 60% this would be ~ 167 played matches.
But in this calculation, I havent even calculated the Arcane Silver, or the Arcane orbs.

This.
In the same time you take to get those materials, you’ve made 3x gold in PvE. And you’re sure about the gold you’ve made, not RNG. I’ve opened pretty much the same amount of dyes you’ve opened, but got nothing valuable from them at all.

Terrahero.9358:

What a load of nonsense in this thread.

As an Engineer i have plenty of burn as it is, stacking more makes little diffirence to the dps. Burn on a condition build that previously didnt have it might be an issue, but Engineer has had burn since launch.
Infact the whole condition build hasnt really changed since launch, but it only recently became an issue even tough people have played it for well over a year.

Burn is also not nearly as strong as people think. 6xBleed is more damage then a burn. Noticeable more, at 5x is less, but barely. And getting 6+ stacks of Bleed is easy enough for practically all condition builds. Burn isnt nearly a powerful as people seem to believe.
It accounts for a consistent 700dps out of my kitten nal, when landing some bleeds i can get those ticking for over 1k.

And i keep being amazed by people who claim conditions dont need anything but condition damage. You just saw the OP link to you a trait that procs only on crits. You think that trait is going to be usefull if you have ZERO precision?
Ofcourse not! Conditions damage might only scale with condition damage-stat, but the build is dependant on stacking conditions on crits, so it needs precision. Atleast.

And clearing conditions isnt the only way to defend against them. You can dodge/block/evade them, just like direct damage. But with direct damage after that 7k eviscerate hit, you cant do anything about it anymore.
Unlike that condition, which if you failed to avoid it, you can still clear after the fact and avoid it.

Flawed logic is flawed.

Engineer had burn since lance, so it means that engineers are fine? What kind of logic is that? Engineer overshadowed Necromancer in condition builds for an huge chunk of time until Necromancer got burning too. They were not fine, as they aren’t fine now.

You know that it isn’t that easy to mantain 6 stacks of bleed as it is to mantain burning, right? Also, do engineer have no bleeding at all? I don’t think so. I spent the whole thread to explain that it isn’t burning itself, but the problem is burning when coupled with bleeding too and the ability to mantain both for a decent amount of time

You don’t need 50% critical chance to make the on crit proc, the precision provided by rabid amulet is more than enough. 25% precision will make any on-crit traits trigger enough times.

I always find funny how those people say that Moa is useless but yet are so adverse to accept a total replacement of that skill.

Lux.7169:

sorrow.2364:

Lux.7169:

what exactly can we get FROM these bags?

It’s now what we can get from these bag, it’s what we can earn by selling them.

That doesn’t answer my question. I wasn’t asking if what we get from them matters, I want to know what’s actually inside.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trick-or-Treat_Bag

jportell.2197:

Ummm no. My point is bunkers should be built well enough that even if they get moa’d at full health then they should be able to survive 10s. With the support of teammates it should be even easier. My engi easily survived it several times even with focus fire.

In which kind of fantasy PvP world do you live?
Any bunker is incapable to survive to any burst without having access to their weapon skills/utility. Toughness alone has never saved anyone, nor vitality.

Staying for 10s on the point while bunkering to keep it safe, means you’re dead by the stupid damage of mesmer (which is most likely running shatter, huh?), leaving the point means that mesmer gets a freecap with easy.

Also, who is exactly supporting the Moaed bunker? You know that the support profession, usually, is not more than one on a node? If you Moa the bunker, there is none to support allies (unless you consider running 2 guardians as a pro meta build and placing them on the same node a super duper tactic) and everyone will probably focus the chicken because, you know, wiping the enemy bunker as soon as possible is kinda useful.

If Moa really was that bad, I guess you would be fine if they completely remove that skill and replace it with another elite, right? Otherwise your denial of that skill stupidity is senseless.

Lux.7169:

what exactly can we get FROM these bags?

It’s now what we can get from these bag, it’s what we can earn by selling them.

Mammoth.1975:

Dhuumfire is about 2k damage every 11 seconds or so. As much damage as a thief auto or ranger pet crit.

~180 dps. Not what I’d call a gamebreaking grandmaster trait.

The problem of burning on Necromancer is different from burning on engineer.
While Engineer needs just to have burning reduced and making it impossible to mantain permanently, Necromancer needs it removed because they already have access to a bursty condition, which is Fear (traited with terror).

The overall DPS of Dhuumfire is not that much, but the bursty capability when it triggers along with Terror is extremely high for condition builds.
On a time window of 3 seconds, Terror+Burning deals 5k damage alone, without condisering eventual bleed stacks of poison.

How is it ok that condition build, which are by definition pressure oriented, are capable to deal such an high burst damage?

JinDaVikk.7291:

Sorrow usually I don’t post on condi hate posts but honestly your partially wrong here….

Engi maintain 6-9 bleed stacks? Um.. have you seen the necro auto attack? Atleast with engi bleed nade is the closest thing to a skill shot in the game… As for the burn….If you remove the engi burn proc you know what will happen?

Shaman (settlers) ammy bunker engis with bombs. We will still have the same burning ( may take flamethrower) and we will be harder to kill.

Don’t complain about engi’s and condition damage. Start at the problem of cripple/chill/immobilize/vuln/etc making it hard to remove the burn/poison stacks.
This would cause other issues as A-net has buffed condition removal everywhere.

This thread isn’t helping anyone.

The necro autoattack can barely mantain 4-5 bleed stack on single target, assuming that you are autoattacking the whole time.
Using another skill or dodging will bring down the mantained bleeds in a second.

Engis with bombs have less access to bleeding and they are forced to be in close range. In that case, burning makes sense still it doesn’t stacks up with bleeding too. That’s a step in the right direction.

hackks.3687:

sorrow.2364:

Burning is about 6-7 stacks of bleeding.

what happens when you apply more than 6-7 stacks of bleeding?

hint: don’t ask engi’s they can’t tell you. their stacks top out around 9. you might ask a Condi-Axe warrior, or a Necro, or a Ranger though.

You guys are giving Burn too much credit. Burns top out around 700 dmg/sec. Currently Bleeds reach well above 1k/sec with the same stats. There are also copious bleeds that last longer than the longest Burn duration. Burn is no slouch, but it’s not the sole culprit.

Are 100% crit chance procs good game design? Not in my opinion, it’s just another way of saying “indefensible”. Their reliability diminishes the more enemies that are present as well. Personally, I’d like to see the proc chance localized to single skills, and given some sort of UI indicator that the proc is available, and receives a full CD whether the hit is successful or not. That way it is able to be more reliably used and adds the appropriate counter-play.

Yeah, now add those 700 dmg/s on the 6-9 stacks of bleed an engi can mantain. That’s quite a lot of damage.

That’s not an issue of engineer alone, ranger can do pretty much the same with Sun Spirit but, at least, you can kill the spirit and prevent any burning application.

Necromancers before patch had no burning at all and their conditions were pretty much balanced. They weren’t able to burst someone down but at the same time their pressure was pretty good, sad thing is that engineer and ranger did better at conditions because of… well, burning.

The Good:
- Trait Description: a really needed change. I was really bored to look into the wiki to really know what a trait really behaved. Probably the best change of the patch.
- Condition Floaters: good change. A lot less clutter on the screen and a much cleaner idea on how much damage you’re dealing with conditions.
- Stunbreak on launch and blowout: another really needed change
- Engineer turret change: another needed QoL change
- Stealth counter: finally there is a way to prevent stealth

The Bad:
- Too much time to come out: balance updates and QoL changes should come at a way higher pace
- More condition removals: in my opinion, it is the wrong direction to fix conditions. Giving that much condi removals to every profession will only kill mild condition builds and hybrid builds.
- Sigil of paralyzation fix: instead of nerfing warrior, it killed any mild-stun build like S/P thief or GS/SB ranger.
- More stability: stability encourages passive play. It should be way harder to access while making stunbreaker more attractive.

The Missing:
- Real support buffs: most buffed builds and playstyles are still underwhelming. Support Necro, Thief and Mesmer are still bad. Pet changes were not enough. Most of the changes did not affect the game at all.
- Warrior nerfs: how long do we have to live with burst-spamming warriors?
- Nerf to 100% immunity to conditions: we still have no idea whether it is a bug or not the 100% immunity of automated response and berserker stance.

hooma.9642:

there is. esp cause u create builds that nobody plays to prove some theoretical point. if i read your argumentation shrapnel nade has no cooldown, it is super easy to spam them from far away and then the engi is suddenly on the node to place bombs to maintain permaburning… play engi is all i can say, then u will see what u are talking is wrong.

Shrapnel Grenade has 5s cooldown untraited with 20% reduction. That’s 4s with cooldown reduction.

Shrapnel Grenade is 12s bleed, with 30% condition duration increase coming from explosives it’s 15s of bleeding, which means that mantaining 7 stacks of bleeding from grenades alone isn’t that hard after all.

That said, I refuse to believe that you think that it is hard to spam grenades on a node from 1200 (1500 if traited) is hard. Still, the burning from the incendiary powder procs even at 1200 range.
On close range, you can mantain it permanently, but this doesn’t mean that it is less broken.

I forgot to mention Sun Spirit in the OP, but it fits the description of what I’m blaming perfectly.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Let’s be more honest with the use of the word “easy.” “Easy” is using an auto-facing attack, teleport, large AoE, etc. Even burn procs aren’t easy for engineer or necro because their burn is likely to proc on a spirit without careful ICD counting, management of AoE, and luck.

Also, let’s be more honest about how effective dhuumfire necros actually are. They’re a decent build that you see in what, 50%-70% of tournament teams? Bomb/nade engies might be in 30%-50% of tournament teams. You would never see two of either build in any serious team, and you’d very rarely see both professions on the same team. Based on tournament desirability, they’re behind guardians, warriors, rangers, and thieves.

I’m fine with re-thinking burn procs, but we should be more accurate with accusations and also more honest about how powerful builds that use them actually are.

This topic is about the condition problem.
There is no point to move the focus away from the issue this topic is aiming to address.

I’m saying that burning is a really strong condition and being able to permanently mantain it along with bleed stacks, poison, confusion or terror is not a good idea balance-wise and it is probably what makes conditions that much out of control

Easy or not easy doesn’t matters in this topic, it is a subjective matter anyway.

vinceftw.5086:

Grenades are not easy to land, not at all. If a engineer can stack you full of bleeds, he deserves it. I don’t mind incendiary power to go but we need something else in return then. It’s a lot harder to stack damaging conditions on engineer than on necro. I literally can melt people with necro due to burn, 7+ bleeds and fear. You can’t do that on engineer unless you get 10+ confusion on someone and he keeps attacking.

Grenades are easy to land in an sPvP environment.
Just sit far enough and spam them on node, where people are most likely sitting on if they want to get a cap.

You can melt people with engineer too with ease. Two casts of Shrapnel granade with Shrapnel on a node and you get at least 7 AoE bleeds for 12s (even more in real situations, considering the condition duration bonus).

Plus, Engineers have access to AoE burning and confusion on bomb kit too. You can easily mantain burning permanently with no problem, while you can’t on Necromancer.

Not to mention that engineers are far more survivable.

vinceftw.5086:

When the rumors of Dhuumfire arised, I said that necromancers would be the new fotm class and engis would be replaced. People laughed at me back then but look what happened.

I agree that these traits need to be taken out but with one demand. Give engineers more access to burning or more bleeds. Right now, an engineer can barely put any bleeds stacks on while a necromancer can get 6-10 just by auto attacking. I never found incendiary power to be that OP on engi because we didn’t have much else damaging conditions but a necromancer with all the bleeds they have and the occasional fear, it’s very powerful.

Actually, Burning is as OP on engineer as it is on Necromancers.
Engineers have access to confusion, easy bleeding on Granade Kit and Shrapnel, easy poison while also having way more Power scaling on condition sets compared to Necromancers. Plus, they can mantain burning permanently.

They needs perma-burning to go as much as on Necromancers, otherwise we’ll end up to the pre-june patch, where the only viable condition build is on Engineers (and now also Rangers).

Conditions are about attrition and damage over time.
Being able to mantain such a bursty condition permanently on already condition-heavy build is the issue.

Burning is ok if you can mantain that for 2s, or even 4 on a 20s cooldown on condition heavy builds. It is insanely OP if you can mantain that indefinitely.

Dhuumfire was already nerfed, but it is an example of what I meant. That trait shouldn’t have been introduced.

An example of well made burning is Throw Torch.
Clear animation, dodgeable and no way to get 100% uptime outside of PvE.

..is these traits:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incendiary_Powder
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuumfire

Burning is about 6-7 stacks of bleeding. Being able to mantain such a strong condition for such an high amount of time is what makes condition builds that strong.
It is not casual that conditions became OP from worthless all of a sudden on Necromancers right when burning was added to it.

I suggest to make burning more of a DPS help on sustain build more than the main damage output of Condition builds.
For instance, Burning on Guardian, Elementalist and Warrior is well placed.
Burning on Engineer, Necromancer or Ranger is too strong.

Well, to be honest it isn’t a good idea.

Yes, D/P has a really good access to blind, but that is part of the defensive mechanic of that set. Despite other weapon sets, D/P hasn’t the evasion of S/P or S/D, neither the mobility of S/x or the cheap stealth access of x/D.

Take blindness away from that set and you pretty much kill it.

Also, keep in mind that blindness is effective only against low hitrate builds. Running something with higher hitrate will increase the chances of hits to land.

1. sPvP variety (gamemodes)
2. Rewards/progression
3. Balance

jportell.2197:

sorrow.2364:

Yeah, turning a 2vs2 fight into a 2vs1 + chicken is absolutely useless and unwanted.
Like Moa can’t change the output of a fight in just a single cast.

Guardian tomes are definitely better.

Now, tell me when we should stop with jokes and getting a little bit more serious.

You know what’s awesome when a dumb dumb mesmer moas the bunker and the bunker sits and facetanks everything while attacking with the moa skills just because TROLOLOLOL

So your suggestion for the bunker, whose main role is to defend the capture point, is to leave the capture point free for the mesmer?

It won’t happen.
What will most likely happen is that they will give to warrior an Empathetic Bond-like trait, but on Master tier, because everyone knows that Warriors lack condition removals.

Phadde.7362:

A tad extreme maybe. And clearly not enough metal ^^

It’s not that much “extreme”.
That’s the kind of fights that conquest mode encourages.
They really shouldn’t have done nothing else then just sitting and waiting unless someone else would come to outnumber the other side.

Rennoko.5731:

I don’t use wells….. I am just happy with the guaranteed positive effects (BIP/Spectral wall), over the… “could be really good” effects. The only exception is epidemic because it has such a ludicrus high damage potential in the right scenario.

My point is simply that AOE poison and weakness is not game breaking when we already have lots of that. This isn’t a case of different strokes for different folks… its a case of a sub-par utility.

We don’t have “a lot” of poison and weakness as you might think.

The only reliable source of poison we have is Chillblains (6s on 20s cooldown) and 3rd auto attack (4s, can’t be mantained unless autoattacking). Chillblains alone doesn’t grant a proper poison uptime and once cleansed, you have no other reliable way to apply them, while autoattacking just to get decent poison uptime isn’t a good idea.

Weakness comes only with Enfeebling Blood and Weakening Shroud (or blast/leap into poison field).
Enfeebling Blood is on dagger offhand, not always a must-pick choices on Necros since Warhorn works way better because of extra CC and needed life force generation.

With CPC you don’t only have a reliable source of both poison and weakness, but it will be a hell harder to remove because of the constant application, which is great considering the huge amounts of condi cleanses you see these days.

Apparently, those are quite significant.
As far as we know, at 360 healing power they will heal:
Deathly Invigoration: 639
Tranfusion: 364*9 = 3276

It has also been said in some topics that those skills will scale with Healing Power, so we might see really nice numbers on clerics.

This video has been posted in another topic in this subforum.

It pretty much shows my point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKSmrsmDHpM