Thread over, ignoring.
I don’t care what you say anymore, that is the most stupid and Idiotic half-brained thing i’ve ever read on the Warrior forums. Go back to the thief forums and whine there please.
You just ignored everything I said as a motivation, took one sentence out of the context and call it bullkitten. It’s not how you should argue, Daecollo, if you don’t want to get insulted and invited to go to another place.
Neither you should insult people not agreeing with your baseless, biased statements.
What I said is true. You need considerable higher poison uptime to hit regeneration as you do on a burst healing skill.
Do I have to go through the math to prove you how much is the real healing reduction considering the non-permanent poison uptime, which is impossible to mantain permanently by its own and even less possible considering the loads of condi removals of warrior, and compare it to the healing reduction of a standard burst-healing skill casted under poison?
To give you an idea on what I’m talking about, the poison you can mantain through Chilblains on Necromancer, assuming that it lasts for its entire duration (so you don’t cast any burst skill at all in the meantime), cause 9% healing output reduction on Healing Signet.
The healing reduction of Serpent’s Touch (~11s uptime over 35s steal recharge) is 10%, assuming, as usual, that poison isn’t cleansed in the meantime.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Alright, as long as you change “Thick Skin” to reduce Poison duration and damage by 50%. Raising the damage of those stun attacks to compensate. Your already reducing the effectiveness of the Trait via the Sigil Nerf, now you want to nerf it even more-so?
Healing Signets greatest weakness is poison, if you don’t look at that fact that it affects this healing skill more then any other one in the game, then nerf its HPS.
Please remember how much of a joke warriors used to be.
We would also need a Grandmaster Healing trait like the other classes have.
Warriors were a joke because of not enough condition removal. They now have tons of it.
Poison doesn’t affect the regen at all. It can’t be mantained permanently and it only affects the ticks of the time he’s on, so not even the 20% of time.
The nerf on sigil isn’t a nerf on those long-lasting stuns, it is more a nerf to short lasting stuns like Pisol Whip, Headshot, Hilt Bash and Concussion Shot.
Skull Crack and Earthshaker still have insanely high stun duration and the amount of stun time will still be enough to permastun your target, which doesn’t encourage skillful play at all. Their damage is enough high, don’t need to let them to be also an hard-hitting skills.
You have the grandmaster healing trait, it is called vigorous shouts.
The QQ will not stop with paralization sigil nerf.
The warriors will move to condi bunker spec, and then the QQ will shift to healing signet nerf.
Healing signet will then get nerfed, and THEN the QQ “may” die down.
That’s because at that point, everything OP has been rightfully toned down.
We are not asking to completely destroy warrior.
We are asking for:
- Cooldown increase on Skull Crack and Earthshaker or moving tier on Unsuspecting Foe or nerf to Unsuspecting Foe effectiveness
- Nerf to the insane passive regen at the cost of better active healing on signet or make the signet scale with healing power more, with way less base healing at low healing power
Those are reasonable changes that will bring the warrior back inline, at least for the now FotM build. Not sure if another kitten will come up afterwards, since it is hard to spot out opness considering how hard Warrior was buffed in the past 12 months.
Even if they overbuff the Blood Magic traitline, it won’t change the actual necro situation for a simple reason.
The only for of damage mitigation on Necros is Death Shroud. Death Shroud prevents healing.
The blood magic traitline will be always underpowered unless they fix this huge disinergy.
maybe you should check where you are standing before stomping. greedy boy
This.
It’s not a joke, have you seen the poison uptime of a scepter necro or dagger thief? Doesn’t matter if you could cleanse every 3 secs
Yeah, because scepter necros and dagger thieves spend all of their time autoattacking, because it is the only way to have a decent poison uptime.
Too early to call blood necros OP.
They have already made a few attempts to make Blood Magic better, but it is still never used.
What makes you think that the next balance patch will change something?
Are you serious ?
Like someone said, poison. But the passive heal isn’t that high, you must be mad.
Look at Elems, they have lots of regen skills. Yet I don’t cry about it.
Elementalist’s regen is nowhere as good as warrior’s regen.
Also, stop with this Poison joke. To let poison really do something against permanent regen, you have to mantain it permanently, which is impossible considering how stupid good are warrior’s condition cleansing.
lets talk about the warrior with a rifle staring at you for an hour before he does anything, or lets talk about the warrior hugging you before he does anything.
not to mention they have to build adrenaline before they can even do those skills to the fullest usually blowing some utility to do that.now lets compare that to an invisible thief thats impossible to notice. and still has ultimate control of the fight if his burst fails.
Ok, now let’s talk about the fact that Kill Shot is a 1500 range skill, while backstab is a close range skill that deals the maximum damage only if you manage to land it from behind.
Let’s talk also about the fact that Eviscerate is a leap.
Let’s talk also about the fact that both Eviscerate and Kill Shot deals way higher damage compared to backstab.
Build adrenaline? You can build adrenaline on every thrash mob you find around in WvWvW and you won’t never run out of it, since most of those high crit builds run with 30 in discipline.
I’m not defending the instagib builds, they are unbalanced (and available only in WvWvW, guess why). It’s just that a warrior complaining about instagib is stupid, trying to defend the warrior instagib while blaming the thief’s instagib is even more stupid.
inb4 Daecollo noticing the thread and report it to get it moved into the Warrior subforum where you will be able to have a “surely unbiased” discussion with warrior-main players.
since everyone can do it, why not ?
Well, so enjoy your instagibs in WvWvW. Everyone can do that kitten, so it’s balanced.
A well balanced mode where the average encounter lasts about half a second and the outcome is completely decided by a dodge made into the right moment.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
yeah right nevermind, was just waiting for the l2p and wvw not balanced comments.. if you are bored and want to argue, find someone else to be your kitten.
Why? Did you really thought that a gamemode in which you can use all of your PvE gear, food buffs, bloodlust, where you can stack insane amounts of power and crit damage, where you are matched against upleveled character is supposed to be balanced?
i know plenty of warriors and other classes who laugh at anything on the forums, but when they get asked for a duel they refuse and you never hear of them again. some difference between having a big mouth on the forum because they killed a few noobs in wvw and actually having a clue about whats possible, only lots of experience teaches what kind of broken builds are possible in wvw, you need to fight them first to see it. i dont know man.. you call 17k+ instant damage out of stealth on a 3.2k armor guy balanced? seriously.. if you read through this thread you can see that this kind of damage is still far from the maximum you can do as a thief and 3.2-3.3k armor is about what you get with every piece of exotic gear having toughness stat on it.
btw there is an edit button, you dont have to make a new post everytime you come up with a new thought.
Want to talk about Kill Shot and Eviscerate?
WvWvW has never and will ever be balanced by design. Deal with that.
Earthshaker is heavily telegraphed. If you can’t dodge, blame you’re subpar reaction time. As for skullcrack, you can always tell it’s coming when the warrior switches to the mace shield. pommel bash, into shield stun into skullcracker. if you’re not a dummy you’ll break it right after skull crack so that he will have wasted most of the stuns in the rotation. Or grab some defensive food, try melandru runes in a second set. I admit the current stun in 100b is cheesy, but there are more people here crying about it, rather than going out and practicing like alot of other people are and improving.
I guarantee that the meta will still be alive and kicking after sigil of para nerf and the skullcrack nerf, and people will continue to whine, and whine, and whine because they never tried to practice.
NO.
The whine will keep going on until they rightously nerf the cooldown on burst skills or look into Unsuspecting Foe.
True that ES is heavily telegraphed BUT it isn’t only ES the problem. The problem is that you can spam an hell lot of stuns without worrying about cooldowns.
If you manage to dodge ES, then the Warrior will try to hit you with Backbreaker. If he fails, he’ll try with Shield Bash. Then Pommel Bast, then Skull Crack and then he will try ES again since 8s has passed and repeat the chain. Even if you manage to avoid all of the stuns, the warrior will keep spamming them until you are out of endurance and stunbreakers.
Then, if he manage to hit you, he will deal an hell lot of damage while being incredibly tanky.
People don’t need to practice: that has been the battle cry from every OP build this game has seen. It is the warrior that seriously needs to be looked at.
Every people that reroll Warrior “to see how to counter it” don’t reroll back to their profession because Warrior is incredibly easy win. Face with that.
Your numbers are a bit off:
- Your multipliers only add to 50%, not 60%.
- You ignored multipliers from Sigils and Assassin’s Signet. Those can add 15-30%.
- Ruby Orb loses to Rune of Scholar if you have >90% hp.
So in total, you could be looking at something like 3,000 power base with 120%ish crit damage and +90% damage. That’s gonna yield 11,300 damage on crit. Of course, you could ideally be looking at a much higher figure. The 20 Might stacks I mentioned earlier could bring you up to about 3,500 power and that ends up with 13,200 damage done with the OP’s stats. The unrealistic ceiling would be 25 Might stacks with a banner, Guard Killer, 3 stacks of Borderland Bloodlust and Empowered Allies for just above 4,000 power and thus 15,000 backstab damage on OP.
My numbers are correct.
- Damage multipliers are moltiplicative, not additive, as Player Character said.
- I’ve not ignored that. I forgot to add it and modified the post in a later version. Keep in mind that I’ve also considered Executioner, which is an error, but I wanted to consider the most fringe case. Why it is an error? First, most backstab thieves run hidden killer, second because in the OP’s image, you can clearly see that CnD+Mug damage isn’t enough to take the warrior under 50% hp to trigger executioner, that means that my numbers are a bit higher than expected.
- Has I’ve already said, I’ve considered Executioner, which counterbalance the fact that I’ve considered ruby orbs instead of Scholar.
Base damage formula is (according to wiki):
(Weapon Strength) x Power x (skill-specific coefficient) x (damage multipliers)/ (target’s Armor)
We have to figure out the damage multipliers and the power but, for now, we focus on the data we already know.
Pow = power
DM = damage multipliers
(1000 × 2.4)/3364 x Pow x DM = 0.66 x Pow x DM
Now, we consider the max possible damage amplifier available on backstab, so the traits picked are:
- Exposed Weakness (10%)
- Dagger Training (5%)
- First Strikes (10%)
- Flanking Strikes (5%)
- Executioner (20%)
For a total of 1.6 damage multiplier, which multiplied with 0.66 is approximately 1.
So our formula is now only:
Pow * CritDMG
The max CritDMG possible is approximately 120% (considering also food buffs AND full ruby orbs, which gives the best crit damage amplifier available). That means a 2.7 damage multiplier.
Now let’s add Sigil, some Vulnerability and Assassing Signet:
Sigil of Force + 4xVulnerability + Sigil of the Night + Assassin Signet = 1.05 × 1.04 × 1.1 x 1.15 = 1.38
Let’s add them up:
Pow x 3.72 = 11k => Pow = 2956
That is a situation in which stars align and every possible conditional damage amplifier works.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
This thread is still going? Heheheee!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Healing
This grandmaster trait isn’t fair, it barely heals the same as Healing Signet!
133 hp/s vs 392 hp/s!
Buff it to 392 hp/s like Healing Signet!!!111
No seriously, SR is the best healing trait in the game at the moment, combined with the ability to remove a condition every three seconds and then more-so when you go into stealth, this would make D/P even more trollsy and stupid then it already is.
Now, even though logic will probably fly past your head. Thief does more burst damage then warrior does, so even if your not attacking you can spam moves faster and your initiative is coming back, unlike warrior who has to rely on cool-downs.
Also unlike Warrior, Thief has stealth, and not only is he not being directly attacked, he can’t even be seen while hes stealthed.
The warriors moves are less mobile, and he has to stand there taking attacks unlike thief who can blink around and stealth and stay hidden. They have no “Get out of jail free cards.” if they are chilled or immobilized, unlike thief. This is one of the reasons why my thief almost Never dies in WvWvW.
Also unlike Warrior, Thief has access to one of the most amazing conditions in the game. Poison, which can be put on the target forever in the right build, Poison allows the Thief to wittle down opponents better then ever and completely destroys the regeneration of the signet.
Now stacked with all that logic, this is also a TRAIT, a TRAIT will never be as good as a healing skill.
Now, if it is made the same healing as a healing skill, then lol, we have a loooot of traits to improve.
Still mentioning that trait… Natural Healing is an horrible trait nobody is not going to pick except in full Beastmaster builds, because you are investing 30 points in that traitline only for the pet damage boost and because the other Grandmaster trait sucks even more.
SR is not the best healing trait in the game. Adrenal Health, Backpack Regenerator and Soothing Mist are far better regen traits and none of them is grandmaster. You can do the math by yourself to realize how much time you have to sit in stealth in a 20s time window to match the healing output of those traits.
If you’re not good at math, I’ll do that for you:
- Backpack Regenerator: 2340/20s => about 7.8s of stealth => 39% stealth uptime
- Soothing Mist: 1600/20s => about 5.3s of stealth => 26% stealth uptime
- Adrenal Health: 2520/21s => about 8.4s of stealth => 40% stealth uptime
That means that to have the same healing output of those non-grandmaster traits, you have to sit in Stealth for the durations I’ve listed without breaking it. Consider the “stealth uptime” as “doing nothing” uptime.
If you want, I can compare the healing output of SR+main healing skill with the healing output of Healing Signet alone to show you how much time you need to sit in Stealth doing nothing to match the passive healing potential of Healing Signet.
Warrior has crazy burst capability too, don’t pretend it isn’t true.
Stealth for thief is just a stalemate. You can’t attack, but you can be still attacked by your opponent.
Warrior moves are less mobile? Tell them to Sword/warhorn + GS warriors, because those are the only kind of warriors you see in WvWvW and they are far from a static build. In a second you create a gap of 2000+ units and you don’t even ran out of initiative doing so.
Poison can’t be keep up forever on targets. Only if you sit in shortbow and spam 4 you are capable to properly mantain poison, otherwise it will be just cleansed with Cleansing Ire.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Stunbreakers do nothing against any braindead stunwarrior. Don’t give suggestion you clearly know that won’t work.
I completely disagree.
If a thief has access to Shadow Rejuvenation , they can still access to a burst heal.
Healing signet burst heal is awful.
Yeah, but the Thief has spent 30 points into a defensive traitline.
If the Warrior do the same in Tactics, he will get burst healing too via shout.
The only way to apply poison reliably on Warriors without giving up a needed utility is by using Sigil of Doom (30% poison on crits) on your weapons.
There is no 30% chance of poison on crit sigil in this game.
The one you are referring is 5s poison on weapon swap.
I don’t know about u, but from my experience if i want to reach maximum dps using hammer and take advantage of unsus foe+merciless hammer i need to use a specific rotation
Pommel>Skullcrack to make sure its will crit>switch to hammer:
Fierce blow>Staggering blow >Eartshaker>Backbreaker
^stun from skullcrack should still be on right after staggeringSwitch back to mace/shield> shield bash>2x reg>skullcrack>hammer repeat.
Many wars i see trying to faceroll keyboard pushing any key off cd they has, so i don’t think they are a issue.
You don’t need a rotation. You can just stun your enemy when you can and autoattack while he’s stunned.
It is effective, deals a lot of damage and works.
Anything else is just a pretense to make the Warrior looks hard to play.
^Healing signet can slightly be toned down
But honestly, fighting against a healing signet warrior is a fair match, likely very very slow. The only problem you have with a full stealth build, is that he heals while you’re in stealth. Try a non-stealth build and you’ll see they aren’t that op. The tactic against warriors is to keep damaging them. Also, try and get that poison on them, it helps a lot.
Non-stealth build is even worse.
The damage they do is extremely high while the damage you deal to them is low and easily outhealed by the passive regen.
If you manage to evade all of their stuns/conditions/etc, the fight will be extremely slow and will eventually lead to your loss.
You can reliably mantain poison the whole time on warrior without sitting all the time on Shortbow, that means that your damage output is considerably low.
The bs op build that beats everyone is 0/10/30/0/30 Hammer Longbow
OP necro…. took community awhile to realize warrior counter them
OP warrior…. rising number of mesmer coming out to counter them
The circle of life as once taught by Lion King movie =]
So now Warrior is countered by mesmer? I don’t think so:
Yah this looks really balanced….
The funny thing is that Warrior is countered by Warrior itself, there is no circle of life, it is a vicious circle of Warrior rising in popularity day after day.
20/0/20/0/30
This would mean no Unsuspecting Foe or Forceful GS.
20/10/20/0/20
Not only means a longer CD on burst but also slower to gain AND less damage.
Your post shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how Warrior works. Missing 1 stun means 8 seconds of dealing very little DPS not to mention greatly reducing the efficiency of your Healing Signet. The stuns/lock downs are a big part of what makes the heal worthwhile because while you aren’t hitting we’re healing.
20/0/20/0/30 means only no Unsuspecting Foe. Warriors don’t run GS anyway and yes, you’re right, it is not a good choice.
20/10/20/0/20 means only less than 1s more cooldown on burst skill but no less damage. The damage loss of less point into discipline is gained by +200 power, which is actually more damage compared to 10% more critical strike damage.
Missing one stun does not mean 8s of very little DPS, missing one stun means that the only thing you have to do is to use the other kittenloads of stuns you have instead of the one you’ve missed.
You missed ES? What’s the problem? Use Backbreaker. You missed Backbreaker too? Switch to Mace/Shield and use Skull Crack. You missed Skull Crack too? Use Pommel Bash. Missed Pommel Bash too? Use Shield Bash. Missed Shield Bash too? No problem, ES is now available, just switch to hammer and repeat.
There is no 8s of reduced dps in an average situation.
That’s not my post that shows lack of understanding, it’s your post that shows lacks of practical experience.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Yeah! Level 95 Warrior here!
15/10/30/0/30 For the win!
I can’t wait till they make shouts heal, then I can level to 125!
15/10/30/30/30! Pwn some newbs!
What about 20/0/20/0/30?
Or 20/10/20/0/20 if you can survive with half a second more recharge on your burst skills.
They don’t need passive Regen, they have SoM and Hide in Shadows.
Sorry, however your post makes no sense.
Your trait is quite powerful and fine compared to other traits available.
Your asking for something that will never be done, because its extremely unbalanced compared to what is already available.
You can’t compare a trait to a healing skill ever.
This post will slowly be ignored, because you have no idea or any concept of class balance.
Said from you, Daecollo, it sounds funny.
Anyway, I’ve pointed out how Shadow Rejuvenation has an heavy opportunity cost and less versatility compared to an healing skill regen.
Also, SoM and Shadow Rejuvenation just doesn’t work together, as you will surely know.
I’m just asking how it makes sense that a trait that, compared to Healing Signet:
- Heals for less
- Needs you to not attack
- Needs you to get into stealth to work
- Needs you to spend 30 points into a defensive traitline
- Ticks for max 4 times
- It is on a way squishier profession
- Can’t be stacked with other non-boon passive regen traits, since thief hasn’t anymore available
Of course the reasons are two. Either Healing Signet is insanely OP or Shadow Rejuvenation is UP. You choose.
AND it will remove 3 condis
AND I can even restore 50% endurance if I have 15 TP in Strength.
You can’t compare a trait to a healing skill.
Your trait scales with healing power better then a healing skill.
Your asking for one of the best healing traits in the game, to be even better.
I can and I did.
An healing skill does not require you to spend any trait at all. A grandmaster trait requires you to spend 30 traitpoints into a specific traitline. So, as far as it stands, Healing Skill > Grandmaster trait in terms of versatility.
We can even compare it to Adrenal Health, which is a master minor trait (15 tp required) and heals for ~130 HP/s passively at least when full adrenaline, without the need to not attack or anything else. That stacks on top of the Healing Signet passive regen.
That trait, even if it scales better with healing power, can’t reach the healing potential of Healing Signet, even when throwing at it the max healing power available.
And a Thief has no other passive regen to stack it further, while warrior has.
There is another HoT that is a Grandmaster you can compare it to.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Healing
I’ll repeat that to you again.
Do you see anything written in that trait that says: “you need to be in stealth to be healed”? I can’t see that part.
What you guys are missing is that Shadow Rejuvenation comes at an huge opportunity cost. To being healed you can’t attack and you have to sit in Stealth as long as you want to be healed. If Shadow Rejuvenation was an unconditionated passive healing, then my argument would not make sense because a Grandmaster regen traiting stacking on top of the main heal skill is too much, but we are talking about a trait that ticks for MAX 4 times and requires you to do nothing at all in the time it ticks and has an entry cost of either 6 initiative and/or an utility skill.
You can’t compare directly the numbers or other passive regen traits without considering that part.
Also, even when fully geared with Healing Power, healing signet’s regen is higher than Shadow’s Rejuvenation. A passive regen with no requirement whatsoever except bring a specific healing skill is far superior to a grandmaster and build-defining trait. Why is that supposed to be balanced?
Your post oozes of ignorance. Spamming stuns on CD is a great way to miss them.
You sure?
Because as far as I know, the stun cooldowns are so low that you can afford to spam them mindlessly. I even use Earthshaker on enemy I’m sure they have stability on, because I just don’t care. 8s later I’ll have ES back on.
Play power necro and call that brain dead
Yeah, he should.
He should also try to play condition Necro without Dhuumfire.
I think it’s fine as it is.
If anything, it’s Warrior’s Healing Signet who needs to be toned down, making it scale more with Healing Power – but that’s a different topic.
Keep in mind that you can also trait to have a “free” regeneration when going into stealth which, coupled with 300 Healing Power for 30 SA, could heal you for a lot more.
Yep, it probably needs, but as things stands now, it is underwhelming compared to the passive heal of that Signet.
The traiting for regeneration is out of topic, because the other two skill slot are already picked to make stealth viable (Infusion of Shadows) and condition removal (Shadow’s Embrace).
Why should a #6 heal less or the same then a trait?
Because it ticks only when you are in Stealth doing nothing but waiting and because it is a Grandmaster trait of a defensive traitline, not a signet you pick and use in every build you wish.
They aren’t ruining SoloQ only.
Nevermind, I can’t duel EU players. So I can’t prove you wrong. Lol.
Please, any NA player take my place and duel him. You don’t need to be skilled as a Warrior, neither you need to know the profession or the traits. You just need to spam stuns on cooldown.
I’ll pass the build to anyone willing to take over.
I’ve added Deceptive Evasion to the list. It is a good example of a [G] trait.
@ Stof: Executioner isn’t exactly a [G] trait, since Hidden Killer is a valid alternative in some weapon sets. Dhuumfire, on the other hand, isn’t a [G] trait at all, since Necromancers can easily live without it and it is useful only in a specific kind of build (conditions).
About Engi suggestions, I’d like to point out only specific traits that make the traitline mandatory and/or overshadow all of the other choices in the same traitline, like Elemental Attunement do for Elementalists.
Also, I’d like to keep out minor trait out of the topic since they aren’t tied to choices of the player and they don’t define variety trait-wise on a specific traitline.
TBH bountiful theft isn’t stifling build variety. Have used trickery for a long time. The real reason why Bountiful theft is taking is a lack of utility skills to offer it. You’re aren’t taking it specifically because its “So strong” you take it because “If I don’t have this I have nothing there is nowhere else to go but S/D” and going S/D itself doesn’t make much sense if you’re rolling say S/P and the boon removal is greatly desired to cover the sets weaknesses. If their was a boon removal utility skill or boon removal added to a utility skill like Scorpion wire, bountiful would be dropped a lot more often for Trickster and minor traits like Flanking strikes. Lets be real, Sigil of Nullification isn’t an alternative.
Boutiful Theft is, in fact, a must pick trait for everyone willing to spend traitpoints into trickery, no matter for which reason are you spending them for.
It is useful in every thief build, even on S/D, when extra boon removal+vigor is always well accepted, so it fits perfectly the [G] trait description.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Now that Warrior’s Healing Signet was buffed, how can this grandmaster trait compare to it?
It heals for less and ticks for less, you need to sit in stealth for 4s just to get the HP regen of 2s of the Healing Signet, with the only difference that Warriors can do anything he wants while healing up, Thieves can only sit in stealth.
This trait needs a buff looking at the actual state of things, it needs to heal for at least 400 HP base per second scaling 10% with healing power.
Lol another silly lets duel and find out posts…. your hilarious.
Afraid of being proven wrong and losing?
I am tired of the QQ. If your so unbeatable, COME fight me!
I’ve already proven how the Warrior is OP right now. There is no problem for me to prove that as a Warrior you can easily wreck Necromancers by just spamming stuns and lol-crazy invulnerability stances, without worrying about anything else.
You can add me ingame, I will make a screenshot of you lying on the ground and post it in this topic, if you think it will prove how crazy OP are warriors right now.
Thief has stacked condi clears – SA thieves have excellent condi removal, Non-SA thieves have meh condi removal. The 2 need to be balanced.
SA thieves have still bad condi removal when you compare them to the average condi removal of other professions.
That’s just one condition removed each time you go into stealth, two if you sit in stealth more than 3s. It helped probably 7 months ago, when the conditions applied weren’t that much, but now it doesn’t help at all.
But those suggestions are insane, too.
I think that the best solution is 2 conditions removed each time your stealth.
Not denying that thieves have a lot of active defences in that regard. It’s more that a thief has to remain active and mobile to utilise them to their best advantage.
As it stands now thieves lean almost entirely on their use of their weapon skills and utilities for their survival while their passive defences do very little. So even a few seconds caught in a stun once their stun breaks have been baited out is more or less lethal.
Thief playstyle is all active, this isn’t new.
That said, there are very few occasions in which the thief is caught without any stunbreaker or oh-kitten button available and Warriors, considering the insane amount of stuns they have, have way more chances to force the enemy in that kind of situation.
All of those are G
Some of the traits you have listed aren’t G, because there are other traits in that tier which are widely used. Elemental Attunement is a great example of a G trait, which every elementalist pick up if they invest into Arcana.
In that case, it is better to point out U traits, because there aren’t valid alternative to those traits.
Elementalist:
Elemental Attunement
Blasting Staff (if staff)
Evasive Arcana
Cleansing Wave
Bolt to the Heart
Fresh Air
Air Training
Persisting Flames
Soothing Distruption
Cleansing WatersAnd this is (one of the reasons) why there isn’t any variety in Ele builds.
Please, specify which trait is general utility and which one is underused.
If you format also the list as I’ve done, I will be extremely grateful.
Reserved for future modifications.
Hi everyone.
In this thread I’d like to point out a list of major traits, at least for the two professions I’ve been playing a lot of time (Necromancer and Thief), that are general utility and must-pick for every build who invests points in that traitline overshadowing any other major trait available or trait that are never picked and needs to be looked at.
The purpose of this thread is to giving devs an input on where to look to improve build variety, at least trait-wise and with a focus on the PvP side of the game.
The fix obviously is up to devs, so I’m not suggesting any fix to those trait, but only pointing them out.
If anyone wish to help with that list, I will be happy to change the OP adding your foundings, at least if they are objectively reasonable. Be sure to have deep knowledge of your profession before posting.
I will use the [U] tag to identify underused traits and the [G] tag to identify general-utility traits.
Necromancer
Spite
- [U] Death’s Embrace
Curses
Death Magic
- [U] Spiteful Vigor
- [U] Shrouded Removal
Soul Reaping
- [U] Fear of Death
- [U] Speed of Shadows
Thief
Deathly Arts
- [U] Back Fighting
- [U] Corrosive Traps
- [U] Potent Poison
Critical Strikes
- [U] Ankle Shots
- [U] Critical Haste
Shadow Arts
- [G] Infusion of Shadow
- [U] Patience
Acrobatics
- [U] Assassin’s Retreat
- [U] Hard to Catch
Trickery
- [G] Thrill of the Crime
- [G] Bountiful Theft
- [U] Initial Strike
Elementalist
Water Magic
- [G] Cleansing Wave
Arcana
Mesmer
Dueling
(edited by sorrow.2364)
I was more responding to this.
But yes from a purely sPvP standpoint a thief isn’t going to do much against a heavy stun warrior. Thieves have always been weak to stuns, that’s nothing new. This is more a case of Thieves not having the options to deal with it than the warrior itself being OP. Which is an issue that will hopefully get addressed once they start adding these new traits and class skills.
It’s at this point you disengage and go find an objective that’s more suited to you, rather than getting into a pointless kitten ing match with a setup which is sadly a hard counter to an entire class atm.
Thieves have never, ever, been weak to stuns. That’s something you have said right here right now for the first time ever.
Thieves have no stability, true, but they have the best stunbreakers in the game with the shortest cooldown and a lot of oh-kitten buttons, which completely removes the need of stability on Thieves.
It’s not that you guys are justifying the warrior opness saying “well, warrior hard-counters profession X, it isn’t strange that profession X can’t win to a warrior”. NOPE.
That has been said about Necromancers, Mesmers and now Thieves. That argument lost its validity a lot of time ago.
Best armour?..armour is not as important as toughness.
Most Hp?..sure, if you spec that way. necro’s can have equally as much
best mobility? Air ele has best mobility.
best CC? Necro still has best CC
Most stability? Guardian has superior stability.
best self healing? Guardian has best self heals. Greater healing power and lower HP pool to refill.
best direct damage? Thief has best direct damage across all build types.That awkward moment when every thing you said was wrong.
- Toughness = Armor
- Necro can have as much HP, true, but without the same base armor
- Air ele had best mobility about 7 months ago
- Necro best CC? LOL Even if you sum all of the necro’s CC it doesn’t even match half of the Warrior’s CC potential.
- Balanced stance = 1/4 stability uptime. Add Dolyak signet and Last Stand and you have the best stability uptime.
- Guardian has not better healing power by default. Healing Signet alone is a better self heal of every guardian regen.
- Thieves has not best direct damage. Warrior’s damage is fire superior on most weapon sets, damage amplifiers are even better on warriors.
EDIT:
Also, what urieldhynne.2743 said.
No, mobility and a ranged weapon will do that for you …
Mobility will just annoy the Warrior. Most the time, a Warrior can just ignore a Thief jumping around with shortbow.
In an 1vs1 situation, probably in 2+ minutes, a decent thief with SB will take down the Warrior but, sadly, it is completely useless in a sPvP environment because an engagement that lasts over 30s without getting a result in terms of capping/decapping is a waste of time and manforce, and once you’re fighting with mobility, you’re not capping, neither decapping.
That makes Warriors extremely good close point bunkers AND nodefighters because of the AoE stun on 8s cooldown, dealing incredibly high damage with insane survivability.
It is so obvious how broken the Warrior is right now…
And no, don’t tell me that it is possible to take down a Warrior with any other thief weapon set in sPvP (so no 108% crit damage kitten) because it is a lie. You won’t succeed even to take him down to 50% HP.
I have proven that to Psybunny, he can confirm (we have to repeat the duel eventually because he had broken endurance bar) that downing a Warrior without kiting with a SB is extremely hard and even when doing so, you won’t succed in less than 30s-1m.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Look! A tanky shout-heal warrior doing the same thing a tanky self-healing guardian can do, with no damage. Stop the presses XD
That’s the point. Warriors doesn’t deal “no damage” when they are built to be tanky, neither stun you around like puppets.
Tier S:
- Warrior: insane survivability, insane damage, insane stuns, insane condition cleansing. Way over the top.
Tier A:
- Ranger: the spirit build might be annoying because of the amounts of cluttering AI, but overall it is in a reasonable state
- Necro: after the dhuumfire and bleed nerf, the amount of conditions applied isn’t so deathly anymore. They have still their weaknees: being heavy susceptible to stuns and squishy.
- Guardian: always been a must pick for every team
- Mesmer: still strong and well represented
- Engineer: strong point holder with heavy AoE, currently overshadowed by warriors and spirit rangers
- Thief: quite reasonable state. The S/D build might be annoying, but that’s the only one.
Tier B:
- Elementalist: need some work as they are currently forced into an incredibly squishy fresh air burst build
The problem isn’t the fact that you can’t properly target people (which is still a problem, but it will be fixed in the next balancing patch hopefully), the problem is that you can’t see animations at all when fighting in that huge mess, which is relevant when you consider that GW2 is completely animation based.
What is making this even worse are the presence of Asuras in PvP.
So, pretty much an average PvP player has to see the animations of small rats among an huge mess of big AI entities wandering around all balled up in a single capture point…
Also, another problem is the AoE capped at 5 people affected. That means that if you use an AoE, there are lower chances that you are actually getting the true player instead of one of those unkillable AI entities.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Nice try twisting around facts.
Here are the real facts, for a change:
- Frenzy wasn’t “nerfed” due to Bull->Frenzy+HB. The nerf was made in February, 7 months after the whole complaint about it, and it was a nerf to quickness across the board unrelated to bull+frenzy+HB.
- Backstab wasn’t nerfed at all. You’re twisting around words. CnD and Mug were nerfed because combined with BS they could 1shot people, but that was unrelated to backstab itself but to the excessive damage of CnD and Mug.
It’s not twisting facts.
– Quickness was nerfed for hundreds of reasons. That combo is one of those reasons and it was, in fact, hurt by the quickness nerf.
- What people complained about was not backstab itself, but the backstab combo (CnD+Mug+Backstab). They nerfed the backstab combo and nobody complained about that anymore.
I think I’ll probably find some time after work to skirmish with you. Looking forward to playing against someone who knows what he is doing.
I don’t know what I’m doing. As I’ve pointed out several times, I’ve picked warrior only recently, but I’m pretty sure I’m not going to lose this one.