It doesn’t matter how many builds people say are viable. What makes a meta-game good or bad is whether it’s fun to play and has depth of skill. The current meta has neither.
Which meta was fun to play (subjective) and had depth of skill, exactly?
I don’t recall any class in gw1 being able to two shot your HP in a matter of seconds.
Two shot isn’t a wanted GW2 mechanic. After the proper tuning, it would not be possible anymore.
Anyway, some builds in GW1 were close to two-shot people. Hammer warrior, backbreaker assassins, some Elementalist spike builds… I can’t remember them all, but there were a lot of builds capable to kill in two seconds unaware players.
The current meta isn’t any better, it’s the worst eversince. Beside that most of these builds you posted there are either kinda the same ones or not viable, the current meta isn’t just so terrible because of the viability of classes. It’s all about brainless AoE and condition spam, braindead cc chains and horrible minion/spirit spam. There is nearly no skill involved, teamplay is less important and tactical decisions are not needed; just roll your face over the keyboard.
There aren’t even more viable builds. Current team setup:
- Spirit Ranger
- Necromancer
- S/D thief
- CC Warrior or Grenade + Bomb Engineer
- Bunker Guardian6 viable builds with 8 playable classes. That’s horrible, that’s bad, that’s stupid. But I have no doubts, ArenaNet’s balance team will manage it to get everything worse.
So yeah, enjoy this meta.
Please, tell me the viable builds of the meta before the 27th June patch.
As far as I remember, it was all about brainless rotation spamming too. The only difference was Warriors and Necromancers being hardly seen in any competitive mode.
What’s the problem about fights lasting a couple of minutes?
In Guild Wars 1, unless you were facing a 2-monks team in RA, fight rarely lasted more than 2 minutes.
Focus.
Seriously, have you at least looked at a build calculator for ele before you posted?
Also unless a duel in a dps build lasts enough for me to heal over 3 times with water abilities, I don’t see how useful those 2k heals are when a warrior/necro has 7-8k more base HP than me.
Focus is not so popular for a reason.
The reason why those extra heals are useful is because Elementalist has better damage avoidance compared to Warrior/Necro.
First off, Elementalist have access to permanent-vigor via trait. Warriors have no access to reliable vigor unless they run Warhorn or stances, while Necromancers have no access to vigor at all.
Those extra dodges provided by vigor are damage not taken that a Necromancer or a Warrior would have taken.
Arcana Elementalists, also, have incredibly easy access to protection. While Warriors have no access to protection at all, Necromancer have some of it at low uptime. This extra protection uptime is, again, not-taken damage.
Just those two things are enough to justify the 7-8k of HP difference, which is even more mitigated while Elementalists run some Healing Power gear.
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No, I’ve said that the build you were referring to (Regen build) can’t have burst healing because, in that case, you wouldn’t have the regeneration boon. Dogged March is an horrible trait and there is no reason to pick it over Shield Master or Missile Deflection.
Then, again, you are going down to a regen comparison. As I said before and I’ll say it again to you, there is no doubt that Warrior passive regen is better, but passive regen isn’t what makes a bunker a good bunker. Understood?
So please, stop making passive regen comparisons and trying to use them as a proof of Warriors being better bunkers then Guardians.
It seems that you are under the belief that Warriors are capable to run 9 utilities. Well, I’ve got news for you, they can’t. If you’re running Shouts for burst healing, then you’re not running Berserker Stance, nor Defy Pain, neither Signet of Stamina. If you’re running Berserker Stance, Defy Pain and Signet of Stamina for condition removals, then you have no burst healing at all.
I’m looking at my Warrior now. Do you know how much Healing Signet heals with Cleric gear? 439. It’s 50 more HP per second. Do you know how much Adrenal Health heal you with Cleric gear? 130+ HP more. Regen heals for 120+ HP too.
43+50+120 = ~213 more HP per second. It’s about 33% more healing per second.
To me, those extra numbers are vital, maybe not for you, but I’ve said no lies.
The high HP pool on warrior has another reason behind, it wasn’t because of the lack of condition removal.
The high HP pool is because the lack of a perma-vigor source, the lack of reliable burst healing (which doesn’t force you to pick 3 utilities), the lack of Protection and the lack of Aegis.
Again, your reasoning makes no sense. Competitive teams don’t just take Guardian because they fit the stereotype of the bunker, neither because it is the only role they can fit. Competitive teams pick Guardian because it is by far the best bunker this game has to offer and this has never changed since the game has launched. Every team (seriously, every) has a bunker Guardian in their composition. Saying that Guardian can be replaced with a better bunker is a pure illation and is not proven by facts at all.
Are you sure that I’m the one spreading false information here?
Please, point me the false information I’ve given.
Warrior has burst healing with shouts, which also heals team mates. They just don’t run it. There aren’t any warrior bunkers with cleric amulet because there is no need. They can effectively hold points and do damage at once. Guardian goes cleric amulet+heal build because there really isn’t much choice. Thats why I said, your perspective about guardian is a mix of truth and vivid imagination.
PS.
Warrior’s condition cleansing is probably as good as guardians now. Where as before they were designed around other’s cleansing conditions for them. So since the class can take care of themselves now, does that justify a HP or damage nerf?
There is the need of Cleric amulet even on a Warrior.
The regeneration is incredibly poor if you don’t stack enough Healing Power.
Also, Warrior don’t run Vigorous Shouts because of Inspiring Battle Standard. Warrior have no access at all to Regeneration if they don’t run that trait.
Guardian condition cleansing is still superior.
Pure of Voice + Runes of the Soldier clean 2 conditions on allies on each shout used.
Absolute Resolution is an extra condition cleansing. That is added to the passive condition cleansing of the Signet of Resolve (which grants amazing healing too).
Also, Guardians have Light Fields everywhere, which provide condition cleansing on Projectile Finishers and Whirl Finishers.
Warrior condition cleansing is Cleansing Ire (which is only 1-3 conditions removed from self), Rune of the Soldier or Quick Breathing (which is mutually exclusive with Lung Capacity).
So, the best condition cleansing warriors can have is provided by Cleansing Ire + Rune of The Soldier, definitely inferior to the party-wide condition cleansing provided by Guardians.
I dare you to stop spreading misinformations here and try to bunk as a Warrior. Then compare it to Guardian bunker. There is no comparison at all.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Sorrow,
What you are saying is inaccurate. Warriors healing is much better than guardian passively all the while not being forced to use cleric amulet to bunker. If warriors choose to use cleric, then the results would be far greater than Guardian.
Your entire perspective centers around “popular builds” nothing more.
410 passively with healing signet?
Adrenalin gives 135 per sec (405 every 3)
Regeneration every 10 on snares/roots with 175 a tick.That is without healing power. Guardian can not come close to matching this without giving up everything. Which sheds light on why guardians go bunker, because there isn’t anything else. You either give up all your damage to bunk or you give up all your defense to dps. While warrior doesn’t have to choose such extremes.
You probably should dig through this thread on the guardian forums:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Play-to-Our-Strengths/page/3
The logic behind your reasoning makes no sense.
True, Warrior passive regen is quite high compared to Guardian’s passive regen, but passive regen isn’t what makes a bunker a good bunker. Damage mitigation, burst healing, good condition cleansing and damage avoidation is what makes a bunker a good bunker. Warrior do these worse compared to Guardian (and Elementalist too).
As I’ve said, if Warrior was such a great bunker, in PvP we would have seen any bunker Guardian replaced with bunker Warrior in a twinkle, which is not the case.
I suggest you to try the regen-bunker warrior, go into tPvP and try to bunk the middle point. You can hold a single player easily, but once you are facing 2 players, the passive regen cannot compensate the damage input (which you can’t mitigate or avoid as good as a Guardian) and you’ll go down quite fast, because you lack the burst healing Guardian has.
Guys, seriously, don’t be stupid.
You’re talking like without Healing Ripple or Water Magic elementalists have no healing at all.
Even with no healing power at all, Elementalists have, without counting their main healing, at least two other healing skills in ANY of their weapon sets, which is at least 2k extra healing compared to other professions and this without any trait.
How many healing do Necromancers and Warriors have in their weapon sets?
Only Necromancers have Life Siphon, which is a weaker and slower version of Cone of Cold.
Then add traits into the formula and you’ll realize that Guardian and Elementalists have a lot more survivability compared to Necromancers and Warriors at the moment.
Give everyone the same HP pool without reworking the profession design, then Guardians, Elementalists and Thieves will become unkillable.
Also, all this theorycrafting about Warriors and Necromancers being better bunker than Elementalists and Guardians is pointless. Warrior and Necromancer as bunker have been tried a lot of times and they just don’t work. They lack the sustain of Guardian and Elementalist, so they won’t work as a bunker unless ANet give them the healing capabilities of said professions.
If they were such a great bunkers as some people here are claiming them to be, then we would probably see Guardian being replaced by one of them. This has never, ever, happened in any meta this game has seen, while there was a period in which Elementalist almost took over the role of the Guardian.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
NOPE. Those hp replenishments and defenses are STRICTLY tied to those defensive traitlines, you’re so disgustingly ignorant.
An elementalist without points in water or arcana isn’t healing crap, isn’t having any prot, and isn’t removing conditions ourside water dagger 5 and cleansing fire utility or phoenix.
And a guardian with a berserker swords build has neither altruistic healing or 30 in virtues and sure as hell can’t tank a lot of damage or replenish his health pool.
So get off the pipe.
There is no reason to being aggressive, so chill out, man.
First off, Guardians and Elementalists have a lot of HP replenishments regardless their traitpoint distributions. An elementalist can attune to water also without any point spent into Water Magic and a Guardian can use Shield of Assorption, Empower, Orb of Light and Virtue of Resolve also without any point spent into the Honor traitline.
Warrior and Necromancer, on the other hand, have no realiable healing by themselves compared to Elementalists and Guardians, so stop posting bullkittens. The defensive capability imbalances between Warrior-Necromancer and Guardian-Elementalist are so obvious that there isn’t even a need to explain them to you, you just need to start thinking about thet and, maybe, start playing the professions you’re talking about.
You think Necros are horrible bunkers? Lmao.
Yeah, that’s why we’ve seen so many bunker Necros in any meta. Bunker eles and guardians, in comparison, are a rare sight.
There is a lot of thought behind why some professions have higher heath pools. This is a complex system. Some professions need higher health pools because they have less defense naturally and cannot build it as high with traits and gear.
This is a load of crap.
Ele and guardian HAVE to build bunker because if they don’t have the points in the defensive/boon spam lines they get 2-shot by warriors, mesmers, and thieves.
A guardian or ele has 12k base hp in berserkers. A single eviscerate crit can bring you to 20% hp and a single hundred blades after a skull crack will kill you.
Nope.
As an Elementalist or a Guardian, you have plenty of ways to replenish your health bar and mitigate damage. Giving them 15k base HP would make them insanely OP.
It’s well known that the two professions with the highest health pool are horrible bunkers and go down under bursts without problems.
I agree that giving more HP is not a good idea to compensate the lack of defensive capabilities, but it is because of Warriors and Necromancers being too weak defensive-wise, not Guardians and Elementalists.
All wells are 5 seconds except Well of Blood, which is 10. All wells tick immedietly when placed and 1/second after that (11 total pulses for Well of Blood, 6 for all others).
And you are correct in the fact that they can take advantage of any combo field, but since you are limited to three combo fields (one of which is Chillblains, so it has to be triggered by the enemy) by having the two minions, you are trying to build around other players anyway.
Really, the issue I see with trying to build around the projectile finishers is that the field options for necros kinda suck for that. Best one is Spectral Wall, but that denies our Dark fields, which are also decent. Poison is arguably the worst combo field.
Well of Suffering lasts 6 seconds.
About combo fields, actually, you don’t need to provide those fields all the time. Most professions provide combo fields constantly without even asking them to, which is different from asking a warrior to pick a trait and sit on a specific weapon set.
Well of Suffering synergize nicely with minions because it is the longer-lasting short-cooldown dark field, deals damage and inflict vulnerability, but, of course, you can just let the minion combo-finishing on friendly fiels.
The only question is if the system consider the master or the minions as the combo finisher performer.
Longbow Warrior with Stronger Bowstrings has a double-finisher (100%) auto attack. Their #2 is a triple finisher and their #3 (traited or not) is a valuable Blast. #4 and 5 are also projectile finishers.
Really, the issue with that idea is that you either have the finishers you want, or you have the fields you want. 5 seconds of a Dark field on a 28 second cooldown (minimum) is not that great, especially when you factor in that you only get two attacks from Bone Fiend and one from Flesh Wurm in that time.
I know, but you need another player to build around you, which is something I want to avoid. It also need another player to sit on the longbow to take advantage from the combo field, while minions doesn’t force you to pick a specific weapon.
Well of Suffering is a 7s well on a 28s cooldown. It is a 25% uptime. Also, the vulnerability stacks provided by the well are also another damage amplifier for minions. Also, keep in mind that minions take advantage on every combo field, not only the self-provided Dark Field.
Truthfully, I think I would rather just run a well build and get a Warrior with a longbow and the Stronger Bowstrings trait. Leaves you access to more wells and the Warrior shoots finishers faster than your minions do.
Well, minions are two and they don’t need another player to cast their autoattack only.
Also, nobody said that you can’t take advantage from both minions and LB warrior with AoE fire field too.
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You talked all the time about ranger evading your bombs/granades. Well, AI entities are stupid, they don’t care about AoE and they barely move out from them.
You can just spam your granade skills without caring if you actually hit the ranger or not and all of his spirits are gone, so all of their protection uptime and burning.
Same applies to bomb kits, ranger can kite them, spirits usually don’t. It is even extremely effective in node fights, when enemies usually have not so much space to kite you.
A spirit ranger without spirits is, well, just a condition ranger with no utility skill.
Spelling error, sorry, I’m not a native speaker. It’s funny I’ve spelled Flesh Golem correctly, tho.
Hi everyone.
At the moment, I’m not able to play Guild Wars 2, so while I was screwing around on the internet, I found out that Flesh Wurn and Bone Fiend have a 100% projectile finisher, so I’ve started to theorycraft.
Necromancers have extensive access to dark fields, through wells. Those fields offer 202 extra damage + healing on projectile finisher. So, the idea is, has anyone ever tried some minion/well build? It might work quite good.
Each Bone Fiend attack is a two-projectile finisher, which means 404 extra damage on top of their base damage only because of the combo finisher. If we add the vampiric bonus and the vampiric master lifesteal, the extra damage on minion attack can reach about 600 HP.
Now the question is: the lifesteal of projectile finisher heals the minion or the master? The Healing Power scaling of the lifesteal is based on the master’s HP or the minion’s HP? How would this build works?
I’d like to try a build with Flesh Wurm, Bone Fiend, Well of Suffering and Flesh Golem with 20/0/20/30/0 trait distribution.
If someone can try this out either in the mists or in sPvP and post here the results, I’d be very grateful!
(edited by sorrow.2364)
My triple kit is CC-heavy, what are you talking about? FT/Bomb/Tool packed with P/D. Unlike your Necro, we can not chain fear in 4s them and put a lot of condition on them. Fear make them run into opposite direction, lose control of them body while dams and you keep putting Condition on the, through mark… Necro and Engineer are not the same.
So you are CC heavy with AoE and, in the same time, you’ve problems dealing with a build with no stunbreakers and all the utilities bar made of AI entities which can be easily nuked with some AoE.
Also, from the Necromancer hate in your post, I guess you have problems dealing with Necromancers too..?
Or the purpose of your crusade is to punish what in your opinion is skill-less play and mindless spamming? In that case, I’d like to know which profession in this game isn’t based on mindless spamming of rotations (hint: engineer is, elementalist also).
(edited by sorrow.2364)
So what’s the problem in killing a stunbreaker-free build?
Change your triple kit engineer build to something more CC-heavy and it’s done. It even counters Necromancers, since they are incredibly susceptible to CCs too.
Granade/bomb kit should be enough to clean spirits too, with enough power (so no rabid).
Seriously, AI entities are incredibily easy to kill with enough AoE.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Is it right that spirit rangers usually run without stunbreaker?
@sorrow
1st Obviously the views we have of top tier players are quite differently.
2nd you quoted me swallowing/parroting what they say? I simply asked 2 questions, so what am I parroting could you please enlighten me?Dont just attack someone and then not answer their questions, its rude.
Back to top tier players; I haven’t seen them hurt by it they seem to be adapting to me.
If you’ve seen helseths newest rant, he complains at one point about the obscene amount of damage. No I dont swallow it as truth and thanks for putting words in my mouth. I’ve experience 1st hand that their is too much damage and not enough to do about it.Trying to troll me in this way means you must have a problem with me when I was just asking questions… But I must be incapable or reasoning as you said…
First off, you didn’t ask questions. You made two retorical questions in order to make two statements.
I’ve explained with reasoning why this meta isn’t worse than the old ones. The answer I’ve got from you is “but top players think…” and “but shoutcasters say…”.
The only logical conclusion I can get to is that you aren’t capable of reasoning and you have to quote someone else who has already done the brain job in your place.
This is the first time ever that top players have changed their profession since launch, as you’ve pointed out. Another good reason to be angry toward the meta.
About the damage, it’s like that now the damage is so much higher than in the past. Seriously, are you really saying that conditions now deal much more damage in a shorter time window compared to shatter mesmers or backstab thieves (pre nerf)? Come on, you can’t really believe that, if you are that smart as you’re claiming to be.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
So you like the current meta the most right now?
I thought all the top tier players would rather have the old meta?
I was thinking that this meta is really the worst especially for GW2 first tournament Pax.Shout casters as of late- “omg 25 stacks of bleed and the burning, OH HE WAS 1 SHOT!!!!” OMG I’ve never seen it bef…"
So, I guess that you’re not capable of reasoning and the only thing you do is taking what top tier players say and swallow it as truth.
Top tier players have all the reasons of this world to be conservative about the meta that made them top tier. You know, being forced to learn a new profession in order to jump the meta bandwagon isn’t a good thing for top players.
Since launch, the team composition has been pretty much the same. This meta has completely changed it, that’s why every single top player is upset about it.
It isn’t even a mystery that the most vocal “top players” about the “obscenity” of this meta are the one which had their main profession hurt by this meta (Mesmers and Elementalists, mainly).
So, yeah, keep parroting what top players say if you like.
Can someone explain to me why it is good and fair that a single condition necro can 2 shot a mesmer and a fully geared traited condition mesmer hits like a wet noodle i spvp?
Please, tell me what are those two shots you are talking about and how does it matter for the topic.
Can someone explain to me why it is good and fair that a single mesmer phantasm hits harder than a fully traited 5-minions minion master?
I agree with Altroll to many points.
Most of the complains about the current meta are complete bullkitten, expecially when people are calling this the worse meta ever.
Spam
People say that this meta is bad because it encourage spam, like this is the only meta when spam is encouraged… LOL
I mean, have you started playing GW2 after the june patch or what? This game has Always been all about mindless spam of combos and rotations, so is the current meta. All Necromancers do is repeating their condition rotation, just like a D/D thief instagibed people with the backstab combo, a D/D elementalist bursted down someone, a fresh air S/D ele instaburst someone or a shatter mesmer did their shatter combo.
The only true spam build has been Shortbow ranger, which they only had to press 1 and spamm all of their other skills and they aren’t even that popular in the current meta.
Then, all of a sudden, the meta is so spammy that none can live with anymore. Yeah, right…
Condition meta kills variety
Another big misconception about the current meta. This has been by far the meta with the best profession variety we’ve ever had.
Despite what people say, joining SoloQ or doing tournaments, you can see a modest representations of every profession.
Of course there are more Ranger and Necros than the other profession, but where is the difference with 4-5 months ago, when every match had at least 2 mesmers and 2 thieves? Metas of the past have been way, way more unhealthy than the current one. Some profession were completely left out while some other professions were as FotM as Necros and Rangers are now or even worse. So, stop this lie about lack of game variety and whatever and remember how the past metas has been.
AI driven combat
Also, all of sudden, also AI driven combat has become an horrible problem of the current meta, despite the fact that this is the meta with least contribution of AI this game had.
The only AI presence in this meta are spirits, but, guess what, spirits does not deal damage. They offer only a passive bonus, nothing different from a walking and killable signet or trait.
Past metas, with pets and phantasms mesmer, were incredibly AI driven, where really AI played instead of the player (IZerker hitting for 4-5k+, pets hitting for 3-4k+) but none complained about that back then.
Funny thing is that AI has become a problem right when the meta hardly counters AI entities due to AoE conditions…
Also, a big LOL to “JSharp play only Necromancer”. You have been complaining about necromancer all of this long, how can a dev check if a profession is truly OP and how they have to change it without playing it a lot of time?
(edited by sorrow.2364)
I think that if we wanted RNG conditions and boons, we’d rather played mesmer.
Agree with the OP.
There is no real reason to focus that much on e-sport and cash tournament when the game is clearly broken and people are not interested/involved into.
Get real, PAX regional Finals had 4k viewers at best over a pool of 3 million GW2 buyers at least. I think it is time for ANet to check their priorities.
A possible solution to conditions can be:
- Remove the stacking in intensity mechanic: making conditions not stacking in intensity will make full condition spec more pressure-oriented than burst-oriented.
- Allow stack in intensity only between two different casters: this will help specifically in PvE, when condition stacking is Always at top and condition spec are in most cases useless. That means that if two professions apply bleed, the single bleed effect is added on each other.
- Change Condition Damage with Condition Effectiveness: this makes all conditions stronger, also non-damaging ones. For instance (numbers can be tweaked), Weakness with 0 condition effectiveness give 20% glancing chance and 20% less endurance regen, while with 1500 condition effectiveness it gives 70% glancing chance and 70% less endurance regen.
- Reduce the damage scaling with Condition Effectiveness: make conditions good also with 0 investment into Condition Effectiveness, but giving a good margin of effectiveness to full-condition specs. For instance, bleeding (non stacking) will have long duration and deal 120 dmg per second with 0 condition effectiveness and 200 with 1500 condition effectiveness (numbers can be tweaked).
- Tone down the condition removals of some professions: since conditions are not that bursty anymore, in order to not make them useless condition removals should be toned down.
- Make Condition Effectiveness and Power not mutually exclusive: that means tweaking gear stat spread, because right now they makes hybrid builds not that viable.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
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How can I explain to you that 100% potentially permanent invulnerability to one of the main sources of damage is completely broken, no matter the drawbacks and the costs?
Your arguments make no sense.
It doesn’t matter that you have to sit at low HP, since the damage of condition class is still low. Being invulnerable completely to conditions at unlimited duration is still an horrible design choice. What’s even worse is that this capability is given to only a profession in the Whole game.
It doesn’t matter how the engineer lack of defenses (according to you, since I have a lot to disagree), 100% permanent invulnerability is still wrong.
It doesn’t matter how popular the trait is compared to condi spam, the trait is still wrong design wise.
Really, you’ve came up with the same arguments which really does not make sense and does not explain why having 100% automatic invulnerability to a core mechanic of the game which some profession completely rely onto to be effective is a good design choice.
It’s pretty much having a trait that prevents your enemy to being affected by any boon when he’s over 75% HP. All of your reasoning apply to this situation too, but that mechanic would be stupid and broken since some profession completely rely on boon and wiping away their main mechanic with no chances of counterplay isn’t good, at all.
There was three videos in the last topic about the matter which clearly showed why that trait is broken.
I don’t know what else do I have to do to prove you that this trait is wrong. We’ve tried with reasoning, video proofs, theorycrafting situations…
I guess we should only wait for the next patch for developers taking a move. Arguing in the forums with profession-biased players about balance has Always been an horrible choice and a waste of time.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Actually, this isn’t even true.
Desperate power, Bark skin, Enlargement haven’t got any cooldown, for example, and i’m just listing the ones who act under a certain treshhold on the user.
The ones who’ve got one are usually active effects, like giving a boon or some condition to the enemy. All things that would go haywire without that (cause balancing issues aside, staying at around 25% would process them repeatedly).
You can’t compare those trait to automated response. They don’t give immunity to something, they just reduce the effectiveness. If AR only reduced the duration of conditions by, let’s say, 50%, then the comparison stands and you would be right.
The only trait that can be really compared to AR is Defy Pain and the difference is clear.
Medium hp/armor, lack of evades, no reliable access to protection, lack of stability, no “teleport” skills, reliable stealth only via combo fields. That means that we’re quite vulnerable to direct damage, so staying at less than 25% hp is a risk in itself for the engineer. And that’s exactly why the trait is balanced – it is good, but you’ve got to put yourself in danger to use it.
Cause not every enemy is a full condition one, despite what you’re making it seem.Also, mesmers have actually got quite a number of condition removals as far as traits go. People just don’t use them cause of opportunity costs.
And regarding thieves, why don’t you say exactly what that trait does?
“one condition every three seconds from self while in stealth”
guess it is enough, for an adept major trait…
You are still failing to see that what I’m pointing to be as a flaw to the trait is the permanent 100% immunity to something.
Still, Necromancer are in a worse position compared to Engineer. No mobility, no evades, no blocks, no vigor at all, no reliable access to stability, no stealth at all, light armor… and they are even considered as master of conditions by design, so AR makes more sense on Necromancers than on engineers.
About thieves, it is only that trait that removes conditions. Just one trait that removes max 2 conditions if you sit in stealth for 4s. I think they can use an AR-like trait better, uh?
You argument is laughable, really.
And there is no second chance as you would want it to behave. Cause the engineer class deals mainly sustained damage – something that needs time to work. We aren’t warriors – we aren’t supposed to burst the enemy down.
You have a second chance. If there wasn’t AR, you would be dead against the condition spec you’re facing. The AR version I’ve suggested gives you the time to heal back and cleanse conditions to be back again in the fight and to not make the same errors you made that almost killed you.
Not abusable, better working as a second-chance trait.
Why are you so in denial of a non-abusable but better version of the trait?
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Which no-one would care about in this meta because defy pain leaves you open to condi spam. Who cares if necro scepter AA hits for 0 because the bleeds are still ticking for 100+ per stack or burning for 500/s. Taking defy pain wouldn’t help warriors at all in this meta.
It’s funny how you’re capable to argue against everything anyway.
What are you talking about?
I’ve said that “call a teammate” is not a counter, because it means “you can’t kill him, just move on”.So what’s your point? According to you and most people in this topic, AR is useless and never used anyway.
Giving a full cleanse and limited condition immunity at 25% HP really gives a second chance against conditions, since it gives you all the time to heal back up.Imagine you are against a Necro, it takes away 75% of your HP bar with conditions and chain fears. AR kicks in, all conditions are cleansed and you’re immune to conditions for 6-7 seconds. You have you kitten automagically saved and you have enough time to realize that you should heal back up. All automatic and passive, even a braindead is capable to succed with, just how you like it.
What’s the problem, then? Maybe it is because this new version can’t be abused? Oh…
No, because it would be a terrible trait, simply put. The enemy has full control over it. He just has to trigger it, even with a single bleeding at 25% hp, and condiburst the engineer later. Almost useless versus a single opponent, completely useless versus multiple opponents, and that’s despite being a grandmaster trait with a strict hp requirement on a medium hp class.
Also, since the engineer deal with enemies via sustained damage, he can’t do much in that timeframe. He would just delay his death – assuming the enemy is a full condition one. Otherwise he can die even before that – after all, there is still the direct damage.Despite your whinings the trait is fine as it is, with the class as it is.
Obviously we already replied at this suggestion in an old thread, still you continue to propose this terrible change to nerf it into the ground.
Pretty much every other trait in this game works how I’ve proposed. Guess we have to buff all other traits which triggers on X HP because in your opinion those are underpowered? Jeez…
What makes engineer so special to the point that they have the right to have condition invulnerability at 25% hp via trait? Why don’t we give mesmer a trait like that instead? Their condition removals is less prominent compared to engineers. Why not Thieves? They have only a single condition removal trait.
Every “on X HP” trait works as a Death delayer. They are supposed to give you a second chance, not to win the match in your place, as you want them to behave.
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You know the number of maps you will play, you do not know which maps specificly you will play next..Build only for Skyhammer map will not be effective in other map and vice-versa. Seriously, if we know which map we will play next or having build templates, things may be different. Having changing build every time you go to this map is kitten annoying. And you only have 1m20s to do so..Good luck with re-build your character during that time-frame manually.
Then the problem is the lack of templates, not the map. It has already been said that ANet is working to add them.
By then, they will have the right to ask or nerf for AR trait. As I seen ATM, any nerf asking for AR is plain unreasonable and stupid.
Absolutely no.
AR is an unhealthy counter to conditions, as much as conditions are unhealthy now. There isn’t such thing as balancing priority or whatever you want to say and the fact that AR is completely stupid and exploitable is a complete different matter from the actual condition meta.
AR is exploitable and broken by itself and the fact that there is a condition-heavy meta right now isn’t a valid justification to its flaws.
Conditions should be toned down, of course, as I’ve already said multiple times, but we have the right to say that AR is exploitable and broken in any situation, regardless the meta.
Situational? So having a high burst spec on your team is now situational and not standard goooooo effing figure. And having a full cleanse then being put on an obscenely long CD will only make this trait useless and possibly push one more class out of the meta dominated by rangers necros and guardians
What are you talking about?
I’ve said that “call a teammate” is not a counter, because it means “you can’t kill him, just move on”.
So what’s your point? According to you and most people in this topic, AR is useless and never used anyway.
Giving a full cleanse and limited condition immunity at 25% HP really gives a second chance against conditions, since it gives you all the time to heal back up.
Imagine you are against a Necro, it takes away 75% of your HP bar with conditions and chain fears. AR kicks in, all conditions are cleansed and you’re immune to conditions for 6-7 seconds. You have you kitten automagically saved and you have enough time to realize that you should heal back up. All automatic and passive, even a braindead is capable to succed with, just how you like it.
What’s the problem, then? Maybe it is because this new version can’t be abused? Oh…
The issue is that no one is going to respec for every map they play. This map is not balanced and needs to be thrown out of the rotation.
So it all goes down to the fact that people are too lazy to adapt to another type of map?
Yeah, it should be definitely thrown out of rotation. Better have a Kyhlo clone instead.
It’s not about adapting. If all someone wanted to play was skyhammer, they could create a build for that. In sPvP where the maps rotate, it isn’t realistic to respec everytime a specific new map comes.
In sPvP you can easily join in single-map servers or non-skyhammer servers.
I thought the topic was about soloq. In that case you know the map you’re going to play and that you should build accordingly.
I don’t find it is a problem when Condition being toned down. However, as the way it is now, we don’t need any more touch on AR. When you get a sickness, you get medicine to counter the sickness. When the sickness is reduce, the medicine you take also less. Cause vs Solution. Solve the Cause first, then the Solution will be automatically gone.
AR is not a solution.
It is just another broken passive trait that offers quite good ways to be abused.
Since most traits are passive, it isn’t a big problem that AR is passive too. What bothers me is that AR can be easily abused because of the absence of cooldown and the potentially permanent effect.
People who really aren’t involved into abusing the trait wouldn’t mind if it had a limited duration and an internal cooldown, since it still gives the engineer a second chance against condition spec. I’ve even proposed to add a complete cleanse on 25% HP, which would make that trait even stronger.
On the other hand, people who are happily abusing the trait (or eventually are against any change just because), are posting here fictional counters and made-up situations trying to prove that the trait is fine.
Because that wouldn’t make this trait stronger. And engis using AR almost never take lyssa runes ( we could only get the effect almost every 3 min) nor do they use elixir C as it is a complete joke in team fights and elixir R or another kit are always much more useful.
And counters are
Call a teammate- wouldn’t you do this for normal bunkers anyway?
Time your Condi burst- by saying this isn’t a good counter is just saying your too lazy to actually care about timing.
Stop attacking for 5s- let him regen past 25% then chain fear rofl stomp.It provides counter play u just need to know how to actually counter it and not scream and cry when you dont instantly win against one with your kittened OP Condi spam spec
I’m really getting tired of your answers.
- When you’re against a bunker, you still have chances to kill him. It is all up to skills, not a single trait.
- Have you at least read what I’ve wrote? Conditions can be cleansed once AR kicks in. Once they are cleansed, there is nothing you can do.
- You know that regen is controlled by the engineer? Do you know, also, that you won’t be able to stack enough conditions to kill the engineer before AR kicks back in?
Stop that joke, jportell, seriously.
I’ve already stated that I think that conditions should be toned down. Why the kitten do you keep mentioning “OP condi spec”, or whatever, like I want faceroll everyone with conditions? I don’t even play conditions. I’ve refused to play condimancer since the last patch.
Really, you are looking just stupid and how you are getting angry shows how much that trait is broken, how you feel involved to protect it and keep abusing.
It was the same with the instagib thief combo. People felt incredibly involved, provided fictional counters and get angry to people proposing solutions.
This is sad.
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Is it just me or are you ignoring everything ppl told you on how to deal with AR.
On a side note, since you obviously dont know how the trait and some of engi skills work, why not play one for a day, and see how other necros deal with AR.
Please, list me all the counter that has been suggested that cannot be countered by the engineer again.
All the counters I’ve gathered from these kind of topics are:
- Call a teammate: which means you can’t kill him, don’t even bother to try. Not a counter.
- Stack conditions before engi hits 25% HP: not a reliable counter. Lyssa runes or Elixir C is more than enough to make all your efforts useless.
- Attack him: not a counter. It has been proved that regeneration is enough to compensate the poor direct damage.
I’ve even suggested to make AR stronger, making it cleanses all conditions too but limited time and internal cooldown, but no.
People wants to abuse that trait. You know that something is really wrong when people are that involved.
I’d like to write my opinion here too.
I’m relatively new to ranger, I’ve played it here and there since launch, without really going into it.
Recently, with the archievement patch, I’ve started leveling up a ranger and using it in PvP and, to be honest, I’m having a lot of fun with.
I think that GS has an Amazing skillset. It really has everything you need to face off every situation.
The autoattack is fairly defensive, allowing to autoattacking without worrying that much.
Maul has good damage, not too high of course, but it is compensated by the fast casting time and low cooldown.
Swoop is Amazing. I think none can argue about that skill.
Counterattack is a great skill. It is pretty much a 3s block on low cooldown if you want or a nice knockback. Another great skill.
Hily Bash is the icing on the cake. CC on a low cooldown.
Really, the fact that this weapon does not have an insane damage output doesn’t mean it is bad.
I’d rather go with ranger GS over warrior’s one any day. Better have an all-around weapon at the cost of some damage than an all-damage-focused weapon.
Should the fact that Axe has a dedicated +15% damage trait put into consideration?
I don’t get why this is still being talked about. Especially by a necro player. Many have already mentioned that AR is less than useless against a direct damage build, but even condi-builds can kill them if well-played.
Engi can only save himself with Elixir C if you stack condi’s with reasonable duration, and the typical 18-19k HP engi running this trait can easily be fear locked and bursted to death with conditions if you time your fear chain for when you have him at about 40%. You need to save the Fears for this point, because if he gets .5s of cast time he is going to cast Elixir C and you are screwed. If you are failing against this trait though, then it is because you are trying to 100-0 the engi in 5s instead of whittling him down before bursting.
I don’t really like AR as a trait (too much passive reward, but there are tons of things like that in this game), but I wouldn’t say it is really OP either.
AR cancel fears too.
Once the elixir is used under 25% hp, there is nothing you can do, really. It isn’t that hard from the engi part to use a single skill once you hit 25% HP.
There will never ever have a sureness in battle. For example, a 4v5 match with the 4-sides win the game, the odd is low but it is there and exist. However, you can not expect a team with Full-Condition Builds will have a fair chance against a Full-Anti-Condition Build. They still are able to win, they just need to try harder. That’s why we have different class which has different unique abilities, to fill out different roles in combat. Counter to Counter = Balance. No sides is dominant. You can’t expect one class can do all, then why do we have many class in the first place?
A simple scenario, 3 Lords fight over a Territory. They each have their own unique army and excels in their own way. However, they know that each of them can be a countered to the rest. That’s why each of them keep others in place. If each Lord has the same army, same power, then either they do nothing or they fight to their death.Either case, it is a boring case.
That’s the point I’m trying to make.
A full condition team, if he’s good enough, can win against a anti-condition team.
This is not the case of AR.
It completely wipes away the counterplay for a condition build and puts all the outcome of the match in the hands of the engineer. If the engineer is bad, he’s going to loose, but if he’s good enough, there is nothing the necro can do, also if he’s the best Necro player ever.
AR should have an internal cooldown, should last only 5-6 seconds and cleanse all the conditions on trigger. It is supposed to give the engineer a sure second chance, since it is a grandmaster trait, but it shouldn’t give no room to counterplay as it is now.
How is Necro Fear chain not to be seen as leave no room for counterplay, I don’t understand? You have been told many time of how to counter an AR Enginner, though you refuse to listen. All you need to do is don’t burst home while he is on AR, burst him when he is on 26% of his health. 4k health with 5+ conditions on him, I would be amazed of how he survive that. Well, if he does, he well deserves it.
The counter that has been given are situational and unreliable.
Let’s assume that I’ve managed to stack 15 bleeds + burning + torment on the engi before AR kick in. I’ve done my best so I deserve to have good chances to win.
AR kicks in, engi cleanses all of his conditions and now he sits under 25% HP.
I’ve lost the encounter. Now I either have to call a teammate to help me burst him down, so I failed my role because I was incapable to hold of the engi by myself or I have to leave the node and let him cap or I can sit there indefinitely waiting for a teammate of engi coming to help.
As you can see, the outcome of the encounter is all up to the engi. I can play at my best, but if the engi is smart enough (not that much, tbh), there is nothing I can do to win.
Stop feeling like u are entitled to steam roll through everyone and this trait would be OP if it had absolutely no counters and IT does any halfway decent thief,power necro, burst ele stunlock warrior can rick roll through an AR engi The only build in the game that has an issue with it is Condi builds. Which is fine condition builds need better hard counters.
No. Condition builds need to be toned down. They don’t need a single trait given to a single profession to completely cancel any damage and control conditions deal.
How many times do I have to say that hard counters are unhelthy for the game? How many times I have to explain you why?
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Don’t laugh just yet, I never said anything about what you said. It is just a counter post to your example. Not until power creep get some fixed, AR should not be touched no matter what. Fix Power Creep first, then we can talk.
A good and experience tactician can tell the odd of wining based on the information that been given by the enemy. Necro is OP but you can’t expect a full team of 5 Necros to most likely to win the fight would you not? Or you can not expect a full team only knows how to play Rock to win against a team that is well-rounded.. Either I misunderstand you or you have a misunderstanding about the game.
That makes no sense.
Both AR and conditions should be toned down. There is no priority on which should be toned down first.
What I’m trying to say is that the rock-paper-scissor ideal applied to balance completely suck.
Of course it is fine that a build is more effective against another, but in the case of conditions and AR it is just scissor against rock. No matter what you do and how good you are, rock will Always beat scissor, unless rock plays horribly bad (the outcome is, by the way, only up to rock).
If I see a condition team matched up against an anti-condition team, I can say that probably the anti-condition team is going to win but nothing should give me the sureness that one team or another is going to win, because skill should be the main author of a victory.
Promoting rock-paper-scissor in balance is stupid and, honestly, I don’t want to play a game in which builds completely take over the role of skills of the individuals.
Power creep = bad balance.
Less way to counter Conditions and CC at the same time = bad design.Too bad that it is just only you want that kind of depth. Don’t assume when you know nothing. You are not representative for our community.
So you’re saying that power creep is bad but answering an overpowered mechanic with another overpowered trait is prerfectly fine?
I’ve never said that conditions don’t need to be toned down, but justifying AR because of power creep is laughable.
I guess that you want to play a rock-paper-scissor game where by simply looking the team composition you’re capable to determine who is going to win?
Man, sorry if I thought that the community had better expectations about this game.
So the fact that necros can hard counter guards/mesmers/thieves/eles right now means balance is that bad then right? As it stands there are only 2 decent hard counters to this Condi spam meta. AR and a well played stunlock warrior
Necro isn’t an hard counter to guardian, mesmers, thieves and eles.
Hard counter means that there is no room for counterplay from one side, which isn’t the case at all about necromancers.
A good guardian/mesmer/thief/ele can easily outperform a good Necromancer, while a good Necromancer hardly outperforms a good AR engi.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
The issue is that no one is going to respec for every map they play. This map is not balanced and needs to be thrown out of the rotation.
So it all goes down to the fact that people are too lazy to adapt to another type of map?
Yeah, it should be definitely thrown out of rotation. Better have a Kyhlo clone instead.
@jportel:
hard counter => bad balance
soft counter => good balance
If you wanted to play rock-paper-scissor, then GW2 is not a good game for you.
I think everyone here wants some more depth.
@Google: automated regen does not trigger if the engineer isn’t hit. Please, try from yourself to put down an engineer with automated response as any condition build with rabid amulet.
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Gw2 is team based because of how the combat works in this game. We don’t have dedicated healers per se. And no mesmers don’t run TW anymore and we were the only class to not be compensated for that nerf.
Optimal-Means it is the best choice for the current meta
Viable-It can work if you really put your guns to it
Unviable-it just as well be a 4v5.Mesmer in this meta turns the match into a 4v5 for the most part except for maybe khylo where all they do is port back and forth to the treb.
You said that.
GW2 is not team based. The only “team-based” thing is that the only competitive mode is played with a team.
I’m not going to write my explaination here again. If you want, I can link you the topic where I’ve explained why GW2 isn’t team based.
TW is still an extremely good skill. Prior to the quickness nerf, it was plain broken.
Mesmers are not unviable. You can still see in the current meta good mesmers having good results.
As I’ve said before, unviable builds are other ones.
Comparing a shatter mesmer to a staff elementalist or a condition thief in PvP is a joke.
Staff elementalist is unviable, not mesmer.