Guild Wars 2

Grimreaper.5370:

spoj.9672:

snip

It doesn’t really make sense to just throw all potential damage mitigation skills into one list, you can’t obtain all of these in one build, you are creating an unrealistic point of view.

I may be wrong but I believe the OP wants a play style which better offers high risk for high reward. Think Counter Strike, one man can outplay an entire team if hes good enough and its all about skill, not build. Unfortunately MMORPGS just don’t offer this level of play style, yet…

Completely missed my point. Which seems to be what everyone does when I posted these lists. Its simply a list showing all the possible tools the class has. Obviously you cant get all of them at the same time. But they are there. :P

The only thing engi brings in a speedrun is unreliable stealth and lower dps than thief. Doesnt make sense to ever use one. Ranger could be used in some situations but usually an extra ele instead of ranger will be better. Ranger is not an option in arah p2 simply because of alphard. Pets and spirits dont dodge and often the pet will stand inside alphards hitbox and cause a bomb even while reflects are up

Id happily test a team comp he comes up with if it actually made atleast some sense. That comp for p2 just seems like a troll comp.

Not going to waste my time on a composition which we know 100% wont succeed before we even try it.

Theres no point even bothering with that comp. Would be a complete waste of time. x)

TA Forward. :P

First or second. Think i prefer second slightly.

Well im also ok with reducing spectral armour and spectral walk to 40sec cd skills. But then those clearly would be op. Making a useless signet a stunbreak + stability doesnt really compare to buffing already strong skills to be even stronger.

Back before I joined rT i filtered pugs. These days if I do pug, i dont see the point in filtering. Often the time taken to fill the group is too long to justify it. And even with a filtered group the run isnt going to be perfectly smooth/fast. Best to just go with what you get and only kick those that actually hinder progression. There really isnt much point in it when pugging. But everyone is free to do so if they wish.

Its a different one. :P

Anyway what about GS camping?

0/4/5/5/0

Well yeah that may be true. But when i compare ele to necro i cant help but feel ele is really lucky. Necro doesnt survive any better when being outnumbered and focused and necro has no escapes or damage negation. Ele has a hard time because if you misuse your active defence you dont have much hp to give you breathing room. Necro has a hard time because all they have is high hp. Both classes have serious survivability problems in pvp. But ele atleast got some improvements in the last patch.

The CDI vote was a popularity contest. Its not fair to say any class needed more help than the others. I think ranger, ele and necro all needed help pretty desperately, but obviously ranger and ele are more popular so they placed higher on the list.

ATourist.8359:

I know this is a PVE thread but I would appreciate if people mentioned how the balance is in pvp as well. I’m also a returning player (6+months) and would like to get a global idea of the classes in pve and wvw

Would be better to ask in a different thread. The gametypes are vastly different.

Aireroth.7596:

As control or debuffing are a bit on the weak side in current state, I would love to see something related to this. Condition management (especially clearing group members and returning them to enemies) could also get more focus, as it’s quite unique and would suit the profession. To expand these condition/boon conversion is another idea I’ve played around with a bit in my head. Kind of like an x% chance to convert a boon on enemy to a condition or condition on self to boon, as a high-tier trait.

From a PvE perspective this would be pointless until more advanced mobs and AI are introduced. We can already pull conditions from allies and send them to enemies pretty well anyway. We also already have pretty good control imo. But yeah debuffing could be better which is why I think we should have more vuln access. And withering precision buff would also help with debuffing.

maha.7902:

Every single class in this game besides necromancer is good for instances like dungeons and fractals.

Lies! Necro is amazing for Jade Maw. 1/47 isnt bad!

Yes the list is just all options spread throughout the class. Its still the most amount of options compared to other classes. And you can get quite a lot at the same time. My point wasnt you should have all 19 of these so you should be fine. My point was heres a list of everything the class has, im sure you can use some of these in your build.

Necro dps is fine when your group supports you and fully buffs you. But ele is the top class for dps in that situation and can also help with the buffs. Also ele has certain op abilities like Fiery greatsword (FGS) and Icebow which do ridiculous amounts of burst. FGS can do potentially 150k damage in a few seconds.

But for the standard sustained DPS and ignoring burst. In a fully buffed group ele will do about 13k DPS and necro will do about 11k DPS. Most classes do around 11k DPS. Ele and thief are a fair bit ahead with 13k. You will pretty much never achieve these values though as they are unrealistic even in the most organised groups. But it gives you an idea of how the classes compare to each other.

Heres a video of my guild maximising eles burst. It is op FGS abuse but it took many days of attempts to get this kill. Anet have said its not an exploit, but they may nerf it sometime in the future if it gets out of hand. http://youtu.be/vdCWwcZDXrM

I also have some ele povs of full dungeon records on my channel (shameless self promotion). https://www.youtube.com/user/Spojo1/videos

Copied from the list I compiled when comparing active defence between classes. I actually missed out blinds, cc and forgot about burning speed. Ele has the most options compared to other classes which makes sense as they are also the squishiest. Obviously not all of them are good. But theres plenty of choice and Im sure you can incorporate a lot of these into your build without much sacrifice.

Ele – 4 Projectile block/reflects, 3 Blocks, 3 Invulns, 3 Evades, 6 endurance regen – 19 active defence options

Magnetic Aura
Magnetic Wave
Swirling Winds
Ring of Earth
Arcane Shield
Final Shielding
Stone Sheath
Mist Form
Obsidian Flesh
Fortify
Burning Retreat
Burning Speed
Updraft
Phoenix
Renewing Stamina
Soothing Disruption
Vigorous Scepter
Zephyrs Focus
Arcane Energy

Ele has a lot more options to survive but when going glass it is very unforgiving. Many attacks will near enough 1shot you if you miss time an evade, block or invuln. Necro has a lot easier time in this regard but also only has the base dodges + extra if you use energy sigils. This is enough for most situations but it can make some encounters difficult if you arent familiar with them.

Its a case of whether you want plenty of options and you trust your knowledge and ability to time things right (This may take practise and experience to get to this point with an ele). Or if you dont mind missing a dodge or two and still living because of your larger hp pool and DS. Basically you are sacrificing damage and utility for passive defence on the necro. Whereas Ele sacrifices passive defence for superior damage, utility, buffing and active defence.

Utility and damage wise ele is far superior to necro in every way. But it is harder to play well.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Ooh. For dragonite!

Please! I need dragonite so desperately! :<

#1: Give a new trait which provides 150 Ferocity to nearby allies. Should work just like Empower Allies, Strength in Numbers and Spotter. It should be a master trait. Seeing as the other classes equivalents are adept or master level.

#2: More combo finishers. Should be on weapons either by default or through traits.

#3: New grandmaster minor trait in spite to replace Siphoned Power. 33% chance to inflict vuln on hit. All other classes have vuln on crit traits except the engi which has vuln on explosions and vuln on crit. This would allow necros to be an on par vuln stacker with other classes but have the advantage of superior vuln stacking on non crit bosses or good vuln stacking with less crit orientated builds. It also allows it to fit in the spite line. Also gives 6/6 condi builds a free condi cover to make up for our nerfed bleed pressure and nerfed dhuumfire.

#4: New utility skills. Theres a wide range of new utility skills we could get that would fit well with the class. One new type of skill would be Orders (I believe Bhawb mentioned this before). These would work similar to ranger spirits but would radiate from the necro. They would be slightly weaker to compensate for there being no way to destroy the buff (either by lower uptime or weaker effect). One idea for an order would be a similar version to frost spirit, could be called Order of Pain. Grant the necro and nearby allies 35% chance to inflict bonus 5% damage on hit. You could also have more supportive orders like group life stealing or group condition transferring on hit.

#5: New spectral skill. Create a reflective bubble around the necro. Basically this would be a copy of the Toxic kraits green reflect bubble. Maybe have it on a slightly lower duration though. This would give us slightly more options for active defence. But would only work on projectile attacks so we can still be chain cc’d by those melees np!

ps. I kind of feel these threads should be in the class balance forum.

What about spotter and spirits? Pretty sure they would be helpful to a zerg. :P

dancingmonkey.4902:

Would it? Is seems to me that this is your subjective opinion. Yet in all of your comments and comparisons, you state X profession has this or that active defence. You assume they function well and are in every build as well.

So which is it? Are you comparing professions, balance, or builds. Because this is a discussion about a specific skill and stability. We are not discussing builds. But your the one that brought up what ptofessions have access to, ignoring whether are not they are good for a build, and posted to us as if they are used in every build for the point you are trying to make. Why do you deny that same argument when it works against your point?

My intent was to point out that all other classes have the option to spec or slot for active damage negation. Necro doesnt even have the choice even if they stick all their trait points in one line. Is that balanced? I dont know. But i thought the entire point of this game was any class can play any role. So how does a necro do that without access to such an integral part of the games defence system.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Active defence? Like on-demand Protection, repeated cleansing or transmuting conditions, purging the offensive buffs off enemies, fear-wall-blocking, fear, and … saved it for last, the entirety of Death Shroud?

Perhaps you should read the actual title of the thread, and the original post. This threads topic has nothing to do with damage negation. It has to do with whether or not it is balance to put stability on a specific skill, and to a lesser degree, the necromancer related to CC.

The OP mentions nothing of “damage negation” as you claim it does. As a matter of fact, damage is not mention in either the title or the OP. Not certain where you got your misunderstanding. Perhaps for the sake of the discussion, a review is in order?

I was referring to damage negation when i created that list. I said it earlier, protection and condi cleanse are more passive or reactive forms of defence. The idea of active defence is to completely avoid the damage or reduce its impact. Protection does this in a minor way, but most sources of protection are long duration and spammable so I personally consider it passive.

dancingmonkey.4902:

This is absolutely incorrect. Lets have a quick example. Condi engineer or mesmer encounters a necro. They apply condition damage. Necro cleanses it, yet at the same time, sends it back to said mesmer or engineer. The two professions with the lest condi cleanse. These two professions use soft CC or condi CC as their main ability to control a fight. Yet as a necro, we can cleanse it and put it on them. That is countering their counter.

Poor example. Soft CC and condi CC is not a necro counter so it makes sense that necro can simply throw it back at them. If they used hard CC then necro wouldnt be able to do anything about it. Besides both engi and mesmer have plenty of hard CC.

dancingmonkey.4902:

How do you counter stability on the profession that is the best at countering conditions? Soft CC doesn’t work, as they clear it and move it to you. As well, they have the highest health pool, and a secondary health pool.

Corrupt/strip/steal or simply wait for it to run out. Its not like were asking for perma stab. Were suggesting a few seconds on a 60s(48s traited) cd skill. The idea is that we have less pressure if we slot this skill. You still counter the necro in the same way but its a little harder because they have extra stab. But they also have a harder time killing you because they slotted a stab skill instead of more pressure. Is that not obvious?

dancingmonkey.4902:

spoj.9672:

And staff ele has high dmg aoe skills on low cooldowns to suppliment the auto attack. Necro doesnt. Its a pure utility weapon.

Umm, what does this have to do with the necromancer? But if you wish to be serious, all of that can be blocked completely. Marks can be made unblockable.

Forgive me. We went a bit offtopic but that post was relevant to the ones above it.

Re: Battle standard
1) You are in a pug and ressing scrubs isnt going to help. Better to keep your personal dps with perma fury and provide perma 25 might for the entire group. Battle standard uptime is way too low to even be considered for anything other than emergency res. But why would you res pugs who are just going to down again. Fractals is the only place where banner ressing is the safer option compared to just picking them up.

2) You are in an organized group but you dont care about class composition because its a casual run and you can complete the same run with 5 necros almost as fast. Or you are in fractals. So you take a phalanx warrior and get perma might for easy group dps in long duration fights where might stacking is more of a problem.

And staff ele has high dmg aoe skills on low cooldowns to suppliment the auto attack. Necro doesnt. Its a pure utility weapon.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Staff aa does good damage with a power build.

No it doesnt.

Spectral grasp bugs 90% of the time even when it hits someone with no stab/block/invuln. Its pretty much always due to the terrain.

Ele has reflects, invuln and stab.

Even in a record run theres no excuse to not have reflect/stability/invuln especially if stacking eles.

The only risky comp i can think of is 5 necros in a high reflect situation. But thats a low dps group so you wouldnt run it anyway. Every class has ways to deal with pretty much every encounter with little to no risk. Dungeons arent that hard in their current state. :P

/agree

This would save me the trouble of renaming Sam The Ham everytime I switch to pigbow.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Precise Strikes is 33% chance to bleed for 3s. At roughly 50% crit chance this is equivalent to about half a tick of bleed per hit. Sword chain is 2 stacks of 8s bleed and the chain completes in 2.5s, which is about 6.4 stacks on average. So yeah, 6-7 stacks.

Next question please.

http://youtu.be/42YD0QBlQ0o

Bit more than 6-7 stacks.

I mentioned necros have cleansing. But I also said that thats a core type of utility that every class has. You missed my point. And yeah it is a bit dependant on personal definitions. But it is another area where necro has less variety of utility than other classes. All classes can cleanse, all classes can cc and all classes can debuff. Most classes can also provide group buffs, unique buffs, special utility (portal/stealth/auras) and combos (necro cant). Necro combos do exist but im sure you are aware of how limited they are and what builds you are forced into to get them.

Well its actually pretty op when this happens. I ran off to solo a reactor in Eotm the other day and my flesh golem bugged and stood there doing nothing. The vet decided to aggro on the golem. And because the golem was stuck out of combat and wouldnt attack he basically tanked the vet while constantly resetting his hp permanently. Immortal flesh golem tank op.

Carighan.6758:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Why is it the necro that lacks utility, cleave, active defence and mobility.

Just the things you cite:

• Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm provide two forms of teleport. Walk is actually very versatile, as it can emulate Mesmer Portal for a much-shorter-CD version of Jumping Puzzle safety net, though ofc it’s somewhat ghetto-version in that it’s personal-only. It also allows some safety nets around keep defence.
• Staff AA “cleaves”. I think people just overestimate cleave. It’s just three targets in a cone in front of you. Staff is in a line, that’s not so different, I do fine on my Mesmer-GS and Scepter with a very similar mechanic (I have to target the last target in the line manually, so mine is a tad slower). Yeah it’s no melee-cleave, but the Staff is a very AE-centric weapon, so when I need cleaving attacks, staff is there to provide.
• Active defence? Like on-demand Protection, repeated cleansing or transmuting conditions, purging the offensive buffs off enemies, fear-wall-blocking, fear, and … saved it for last, the entirety of Death Shroud?
• Utility is the thing Necro is really focused on. Their whole problem in PvE is that no one requires utility, which is why my Necro is a rather PvP-centric char. But assuming it’d be required… wow. Marks, Wells, AE rezz, condition spreading, pulling, chilling, interrupting, protection, weakness… Necros have a lot of utility. And it’s quite well-focused, their focus is on condition- and boon-control.

Seriously. though PvE needs a redesign to actually challenge this, Necro is closer to how balance should be oriented than any other class except maybe Elementalist. It’s set up extremely well, with a clear design theme but a mixed layer of various abilities on top, a quite synergetic class mechanic, good graphical representations, and overall a nice identity.
The one big flaw is life siphoning.

Staff auto is not cleave. Its not even splash damage. Pierce is a poor alternative to cleave. Its also terrible damage so you cant really justify the no cleave arguement with the notion that you should just use staff aoe. All other classes have decent damage cleaves or decent high damage sustained aoe. Necro has burst aoe and semi sustained condi aoe but no sustained high damage aoe or cleave.

When I say active defence I am more specifically referring to damage avoidance. Protection and other damage reduction methods, while often activated with skills, is closer to passive defence as you simply reduce the damage you take. There is no timing of skills/evades to completely avoid damage. Cleansing isnt active defence, its something you do after you have already taken the hit. Thats reactive defence. Fear is active defence and i said i will update the list to include cc and blinds later on. I already included Deathshroud in the list, thats one method and it has its weaknesses and strengths. But being the sole method of damage avoidance is a bit imbalanced especially when it doesnt actually avoid anything.

Necro does not have utility. Or atleast it doesnt have anywhere near the utility other classes have. Ill give you examples of what i consider utility. Combo fields and finishers that produce beneficial results such as condi cleanse, might, stealth, healing and swiftness stacking etc. Other utility includes portal, stealth, reflects, group boons, group cleanses, debuffs, mobility, unique buffs (spotter, empower allies, banners, spirits etc), crowd control and mob placement cc (temporal curtain, binding blades etc). The only utility necro has is some debuffs, some cc and some limited high cooldown condi cleanses. These are very accessible to all classes (they are the core utility every class has) along with plenty of other more meaningful forms of utility. Necro needs something a bit more unique in regards to utility.

But why do you even need it in an organized group. :P

20 seconds isnt very long.

Well you should be able to get pretty good fury uptime with staff. But staff really isnt as amazing dps as people make it out to be. The utility of D/F can allow for much faster runs because of the safety it provides for the whole group. And you can always just use staff for the easier parts of fractals. For boss fights like arch diviner and mossman I would definately recommend sticking with D/F as they will be moving around a lot and walk out of lava font. Also reflecting your fireballs on diviners phase 3/4 can pretty much 1 shot you which is hilarious but also incredibly annoying xD.

I was using very dark colours. So that might be why you cant make it work. The texture difference isnt as noticeable on dark colours. I believe i had a mixture of iron, black and some light grays (was going for a dark guardian with white lights look).

I guess thats true. I just really hate the shape of the TA legs on female characters. You can make the T2/T3 legs fit with TA top with the right dyes as I had the same mix on my guardian before he had a sex change and went full female T3.

Cant decide on shoulders for necro’s condi set. Either T3 or Trickster. I prefer T3 but it has clipping issues with my necros hairstyle from certain angles. I will be getting Shadow of Grenth so that may hide it a bit.

TA shoulders. And i recommend swapping the legs to either t3 or t2.

Please tell us what you would judge quality on.

And we have been listening to you. But we dont agree with you because your arguements make no logical sense whatsoever.

Theres actually plenty of useless weapons in the game. Guard staff atleast has utility, but its completely useless for fighting.

We are just faithful believers in the holy trinity of dps.

Phalanx warrior doesnt provide perma fury. So having 6 in fire is still important for that. Its also a dps increase. There isnt a disadvantage to having a group that overstacks might passively. D/F ele stacks might and fury in its rotation so dont worry about the fact that phalanx warrior is rendering some of your might pointless. You are still helping by providing fury and lowering gaps between dropping of might stacks if the warrior stops attacking.

I like dark path as it is. It could do with a projectile speed increase but thats about it. I dont want to see it as a ground target skill. I think that would make necros too mobile and it would make it harder to hit your targets with dark path. Im all for mobility or some other form of active defence somewhere else though.

VideoGamermike.5813:

I don’t know, I never played necromancer.
I do see where everyone is coming from though, it does have synergy problems unless you build around it, which is a bit difficult to do.

It was more because that particular build is not great for dps and suffers from serious dps uptime problems. Which is ironic because most players who use subpar builds tend to chant the mantra; “dps uptime is more important than dps” (not true if your dps is absolutely terrible).

Dont tell us what is and isnt fun. We spent days doing our TA records the other week and even though that was constant restarting of the same path everytime we made a mistake it was still fun.

Some people do find following others orders fun. Who directs them makes no impact on their enjoyment. Thats an opinion, please dont state it as a fact…

Bhawb.7408:

Just make a new Spectral Skill that is an elite.

Recharge lifeforce to full and give stability.

Instantly solves our lifeforce and stab problems in pvp and gives us stab from a non transform source.

I guess. But i dont really feel like its reliable to stay on point with no good access to stab. You could get cc chained off point by a warrior, guardian or engi and let them decap it. Obviously with smart play and blinds you can minimise this. But with well cooldowns and the pulse time of WoD, I dont really like the idea of relying solely on blinds to avoid being knocked off point.