One of the main reasons no mmo will ever have the same success as WoW did, in my opinion, are posts like this. Communities are so impatient now, threatening to leave, exaggerating Issues. I’ve seen this trend for awhile now, we set up games for failure without giving them time to develop and succeed.
This ppatch isn’t make or break for me, because this has been one of the smoothest and well balanced(regarding PvP) launches for an mmo I know of.Trouble is, this game was released “when it’s ready”. So why the hell are all these bugs in the game at release in the first place, and why oh why haven’t they been fixed 2.5 months into release?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Engineer-bugs-compilation
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guardian-Bugs-compilation
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-List-of-bugged-abilities-and-traits
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Ranger-Bug-List
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Bugs-and-Issues-Compilation
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Comprehensive-list-of-Warrior-bugs-2
It’s not like there’s 1 or 2 little bugs here for each class, there’s TONS of them for everyone, and I really hope they are going to make a real effort into correcting a lot of them for the next patch.
I would assume when it’s ready was harder to achieve through continuous pressure from their publisher. This isn’t a huge issue for me, though. I am a patient man, and I understand both the difficulty of nailing down all those bugs and how long it takes to even things out in a large scale game.
Sounds a bit to serious for a game that’s not quite time to be serious in. 4 hours a day 5 a week? That’s a part time job.
One of the main reasons no mmo will ever have the same success as WoW did, in my opinion, are posts like this. Communities are so impatient now, threatening to leave, exaggerating Issues. I’ve seen this trend for awhile now, we set up games for failure without giving them time to develop and succeed.
This ppatch isn’t make or break for me, because this has been one of the smoothest and well balanced(regarding PvP) for an mmo I know of.Your so far from the mark, it’s obvious you haven’t been playing MMO’s very long.
Long ago there were two games that had a very large PvP Community they were called Everquest 1 and DAOC. When those games had gotten old and they went to release DAOC2 and Everquest 2 which both dropped the ball on PvP.
WoW released right at this time and had a slightly better pvp system and great pve that grabbed every player from other games. There success was more timing then anything else. But patch after patch pve was focused on while PvP was ignored.
This left a giant playerbase of homeless PvPer’s looking for the next game, they tried Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, Swtor, Lineage 2, etc. All of which dropped the ball on PvP while promising fixes and concerns on pvp content that never came.
Now pvp player’s are smarter they can see through the jargon and rhetoric designers use to placate them, while doing nothing whatsoever to address the pvp flaws. So they leave when Dev’s ignore there issues and concerns that imbalance pvp, as they should.
I would continue this argument with you. However, it’s become so obvious through our other conversations and ones I’ve seen in this thread that you are less someone with a valid point to make, and more just someone who just wants to fight.
Since you’ve admitted there are mulitple bugs and balance issues with PvP and since your obviously taking longer than a Tortoise on perks crossing the street to fix them.
Shouldn’t the players showing there loyalty by sticking around and continuing to show faith in repairs be compensated with say a 200% boost to glory gain until the issues are ironed out.
I don’t think they need to bribe their playerbase to stay. Its really not severely broken.
Do you have experience programming? Do you realize how hard it can be to find bugs in such a complex program?Yes worked on many other games fixes were often implemented that day, not left for month’s on end. Are you aware that games have an alpha and a beta and the issues the game is facing were known and reported in both of those now were 3 months out from release. Are you aware there is a forum bug that erases edit/quote/post buttons on most threads, it was reported a month ago and could be fixed with two lines of html code. I could do it on a black sheet of paper without Dreamweaver.
You have a funny way of defining bribe. We are customers we paid them, any other company in the world gives you something when there service isn’t working as intended it’s called courtesy.
But the real problem is you don’t see it as severly broken lmfao well then where are all the players going how many websites of pro pvp guilds already state they left GW2.
Talk is cheap, if you act like this I have a hard time believing you have done much.
You really think Anet isn’t doing all they can to fix the issues? You think they are sitting thinking, “oh we’ll just let people play with the bugs.”
Pull your head out man, the world doesn’t work exactly the way you want it to. You don’t need a glory boost, you just need to be patient.
Since you’ve admitted there are mulitple bugs and balance issues with PvP and since your obviously taking longer than a Tortoise on perks crossing the street to fix them.
Shouldn’t the players showing there loyalty by sticking around and continuing to show faith in repairs be compensated with say a 200% boost to glory gain until the issues are ironed out.
I don’t think they need to bribe their playerbase to stay. Its really not severely broken.
Do you have experience programming? Do you realize how hard it can be to find bugs in such a complex program?
One of the main reasons no mmo will ever have the same success as WoW did, in my opinion, are posts like this. Communities are so impatient now, threatening to leave, exaggerating Issues. I’ve seen this trend for awhile now, we set up games for failure without giving them time to develop and succeed.
This ppatch isn’t make or break for me, because this has been one of the smoothest and well balanced(regarding PvP) launches for an mmo I know of.
(edited by tOss.9024)
@tOss
“it’s not impossible to stand up against” – “I will admit the example was not the best”
Bill O’ Rielly, is that you? Because you’re nitpicking like a pro. I said that the example I gave initially, in one part of the discussion, was not ideal. I did not state that all of my examples were not the “best.” I was only talking about the turning -without- a stun breaker. This doesn’t forfeit any of the arguments I’ve made thus far.
It does not I quoted merriam webster’s dictionary lol. I used the actual definition not one I made up
Yes, it does. Mine is parallel to the one given.
This tells me you haven’t really played thief. First off as long as you have cnd you can burst someone standing right next to some one and go back into stealth to finish them off without interruption.
If you successfully land your attack and it breaks stealth you cannot reenter stealth. Using cnd uses up enough initiative to not be able to use cnd for a short time, and the stealth from cnd does not last as long as the finishing animation nor does it protect you against knockbacks or damage.
[/quote]
This tells me you don’t PvP or at least against anyone good. The example you give is atrocious. Most smart thieves venom (Basilisk in particular) before they burst you so your stunned. You need a port or a stun breaker to stop it. If you have enough time to turn your camera and face the other way (assuming no quickness was popped) and eat the 2 HSS coming your way, then your playing against a crap thief and your on a bunker build.
Yes, they can use venom, and yes it would require a stun breaker to get out of that. I will admit the example was not the best. However, with a stun break you still escape easily -no different the the always compared 100b. No, you don’t have to play a bunker build.
What shocks me even more from the person claiming thief is not OP is that your best strategy requires 2 PEOPLE LOL. Funny story this kitten doesn’t work either. You can literally down someone from stealth.
You misunderstand, that wasn’t the best example. That is simply if all else fails, pretty sure I said “even if he does down you.” You should have a teammate with you anyways. Again, stealth doesn’t save a thief from CC, it only masks them.
Funny thing I play ele and thief P/D. I have repeated said (check my post history if you like) that its can be countered. The thing to remember is just because it can be countered doesn’t mean it balanced. Bunkers can be countered too. Fact is a BS thief can toss down more damage than any one in a short period of time and has all the tools to chase down the target. On top of that stealth (Combat kittening Stealth) gives it one of the best defensive tools at the same time.
If anyone is willing I would love to hear a justification of having that much front end damage from stealth without the word “counter” in the argument. Its not good enough.
Why isn’t counter good enough? That is, after all, a core aspect of pvp is it not? A player attempts something, you counter and return with something else. PvP isn’t exchanging blows until someone comes out the victory, it’s countering one another.
Warrior no stealth. 100b even with quickness slow as hell. You always see it coming. If he misses he turns to glass. Best he could possibly do is switch to shield and block. And here some game knowledge if he can down you with 100b flat out hes not speced into the lower trees no weapon swap cd reduction. Once he goes shield and he block ends its game over. If anything is on him its over. Burning bleed anything its over. If its not over he wasn’t speced for glass you would have to eat every hit of 100b. Cast time without quickness 3 1/2 seconds. that’s more than double the time of the backstab burst and that just the dps part of the warrior chain. to hit 100b you need to immobile the target. So your probably going to bullrush bolas. This does very little dps. Os the only dangerous part is the 100b which can be rolled out of considering 100b roots.
BTW if a thief get evade on backstab stealth doesn’t break you can go right back into it thus rolling wont do kitten. Another funny thing if his damage doesn’t break stealth you can go right back into it no cool down.
100b vs backstab is not even comparable.
You made a point here, if he misses he turns to glass. A BS thief is always glass.
The point of evading and gaining distance on the thief is to let the very short duration cnd wear off. This works pretty well in my experience.
Look, I’ll admit that backstab does very high damage, no one can deny it does. (though hits displayed on the forums are often due to things going just right for the thief) My point is simply that I don’t think that, overall, a nerf to backstab would do much for the game as a whole. It can be countered, so it’s not impossible to stand up against. I don’t have an issue with high damage, so long as it can be negated-and there are downsides to running it. (which in my view it is)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”
You missed my point but that is Ok.
The video is there to illustrate that in its initial stages rogue classes have a strong tendency to be OP. Now you took “issue” with my use of the word OP as in overpowered. Afaik OP has never meant unbeatable. In fact akin to terms like overwhelm it just means to do something with more force than is needed.
Here’s a definition
overpowered past participle, past tense of o·ver·pow·er (Verb)
Verb:
Defeat or overcome with superior strength.
Be too intense for; overwhelm.Right now the burst damage from back stab thief has a strong tendency to overpower other players.
To keep this very simple any class with too much front end or back end damage literally overpowers other classes.Honestly I am disgusted with all this talk. It would make more sense to nerf the dam build asap and see who dares QQ.
If you do choose to watch the video you might learn something about the personality and mindset of the common backstab rogue I mean thief.
Edit to address your edit.
“The main issue here, in my opinion, is people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling, “lalalala it’s op, I’m right you’re wrong lalalalaicanthearyou.””
No I hear all the discussion loud and clear. However, just because I understand your point doesn’t mean your right. History is a real kitten. If you choose to learn from it you will avoid many of the pitfalls that your predecessors feel into. If you choose to ignore it you will face the same problems. right now in GW2 if anyone took a small amount of time a reviewed WoW or Warhammer even LOL Shaco SWToR you would find forums full of comments that stealth and burst are OP. It does not mean its always OP. It just so happens in this case it is OP. The requirements to dodge avoid or stop the burst is too high.
My definition of overpowered still stands, and your pasting the definition only supports my previous statement. Sure, people my be initially overwhelmed because they don’t understand how to counter it, but the fact still stands it is easily countered. So it can appear overpowered, when it is not. There is a difference between appearance and reality. You can just go swinging the nerf bat like crazy when it’s not a game breaking skill. Proper counters, or even having one other person with you when you get jumped makes a backstab thief a joke. The requirements to stop the burst are very, very low. Simply turning your character when the thief steals can buy you time, or make the thief mess up his combo. Even if he does down you, a teammate can either rez you, or down the thief before he stomps you. (trust me, they melt fast)
If it wasn’t so easy to counter, I would be looking at this argument completely different.
Oh, and there is no pitfall for me to fall into, I play an ele.
Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?
I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.
Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.
There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.
If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.
I said if there are several ways to counter it, not only if you could dodge it. Backstab can be countered with protection, gearing, other forms of damage mitigation, dodge, general situational awareness, distance gaining abilities+heal, there are a lot of options. The fact that dodge exists simply makes it even easier to deal with front loaded damage, it doesn’t harm balance.
Instead of picking at an argument to spin something your way, perhaps it’s best to read a post in it’s entirety and think critically before responding.Like I said in OP….you know what why rehash this in a years time well be having this same conversation.
Like I have said before it’s just history.
There are a lot of fundamental differences between a rogue and thief, and between WoW and Guild Wars in regards to balance.
Edit to respond to yours: One backstab build vs. every other? I’m not sure what you mean here, please elaborate. Backstab, if this is what you’re implying, is not successful against every build. Just because you, and some others, are having trouble countering the build doesn’t mean the people don’t “get it.” It simply means that some don’t have problems with it, and they are trying to explain why they don’t. The main issue here, in my opinion, is people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling, “lalalala it’s op, I’m right you’re wrong lalalalaicanthearyou.”
(edited by tOss.9024)
Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?
I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.
Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.
There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.
If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.
I said if there are several ways to counter it, not only if you could dodge it. Backstab can be countered with protection, gearing, other forms of damage mitigation, dodge, general situational awareness, distance gaining abilities+heal, there are a lot of options. The fact that dodge exists simply makes it even easier to deal with front loaded damage, it doesn’t harm balance.
Instead of picking at an argument to spin something your way, perhaps it’s best to read a post in it’s entirety and think critically before responding.
Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?
I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.
Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.
There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”
By that logic, they should nerf condition damage and cc’s too because you’ll be wrecked by those builds if you aren’t carrying a stun break or condition removal. Not saying BS combo isn’t in need of adjustment. I just see flaws in your arguement.
I get your point, but the difference is that anyone with any interest in PvP will run with a stunbreak and a condition removal anyway: those are standard because so many different classes bring stuns and conditions to the table. And that’s how it should be: you run a build that can account for many different encounters.
I’m talking about needing to run a bunker build that you might not enjoy playing or that doesn’t suit your playstyle just to counter a single borked spec. Nobody likes being pigeonholed.
Dual beat me to the point on conditions. But most people aren’t telling you to run a bunker build, they are just telling you to stop running glass cannon. (not you specifically, but as an abstract) I run an ele, without points in toughness. However, I have never dropped as quick as people describe here. As a matter of fact, unless I’ve already lost a good amount of my health I rarely have any troubles with a backstab thief.
Did you get stacks of vulnerability before this? Did tthe thief have tons of might from buffs around him? Did he have quickness? Did he have fury? How many seconds was it really? Screenshots of the final point don’t show enough of the situation to be a reliable source for balance discussion.
It doesn’t matter if they fix this to be frank. Players will just move on to something else that is “op.” Honestly, Backstab is very easy to counter if you have any situational awareness. (This is coming from an ele who doesn’t spec into toughness)
You can’t make everyone happy, because everyone can’t always win.
Lastly, being #1 doesn’t mean much in conquest. Especially considering defenders get less points.
-edit: Backstab thieves die almost as fast as they can kill someone, so I don’t really see a huge problem.
The number of replies in a thread with such a title is a pretty strong indication of the extent of the thief burst problem. They need to change thieves so that they take some sort of strategy to play. Right now, even a monkey could get some kills while playing a thief and mashing some buttons.
I would be more inclined to say it is evidence of the extent of the debate, not that it is actually evidence there is a problem. This thread has people arguing its not so bad too.
Also the view to reply ratio implies far to large a margin of error. that is, Viewers who agree or disagree that didn’t respond.
They’ve already stated they were working on duels, game types , etc. They are also working on bugs. I’m sure they had a deadline they had to meet, and the publishers pushed them to release. Things aren’t so black and white when it comes to releases these days.
Anet has done a great job of communicating with the community, and even better job not flailing the nerf bat wildly because of forum whiners.
Communities simply lack they patients they used to have. We used to prop companies up, trying to help them make the best game possible. Now we do everything we can to tear them down.
Let me clarify it to you.
Thief comes hits me from stealth for 5k in one hit and stealth again.
Problem, you whine about 100b. 100b Is a multi hit skill, in other words if it dealt you 8k now cause some hits crit and you didn’t evade any, chances are the next one will hit you under 2k because evaded most of it or it didn’t crit. A warrior who cones at you this way either goes into frenzy which makes him death meat or charges with bull rush bolas whatever, in the end you can still evade most of the damage. Warriors got cool downs in their weapons meaning you won’t see another instant HB and he can’t move while doing it. Thief’s back stab hits you once hits you hard and can be done enough to down anyone.
Same number of skill:
With NO, 0, Ningún cool down.
Now here comes the next. Thiefs can close combat anything in seconds due to their ability to shadow step around, in other words the fight is always on their terms. A 100b warrior cannot do this, even most of our get close skills don’t work lol.
A hammer warrior can CC you a lot. Stability and he is F. Or dodge his first CC which by the way is stupidly easy to predict if your brain functions property which I’m certain it does.
Now in long range, I go with my warrior and I got 1 skill in each of my ranged weapons that deals any damage, the rest is crap. I go with my thief. His short bow auto attacks in a back stab build hit like a truck and they bounce between targets. See some enemies downed shoot em they will die all at once so no rally crap. Use your AoE and you will see some stupid numbers and enemies dying everywhere.
Axe warriors don’t kitten anyone, after Beta nerfed them to the ground they are somewhere between useless and lol I am just trying to be cool. The highest eviscerate I done was 5.2k with a crit against a glass cannon. I was heavily spec into damage and only saw it happen once, normally eviscerate is lucky if it hits pass the 2k mark. Yet I got a cool down and need full adrenaline to do it. While thief only needs to pop and kill.
Hope this clarifies why people puts so much hate on Thiefs and not on other classes.
Its hard to take an argument seriously when the first sentence shows a severe misunderstanding of the class’ mechanics.
I struggle to find a reason to engage in this discussion. What exactly is the point of it? Honest question, nt trying to shut you down.
The OP misses the point: it’s not about how powerful the build is, it’s how cheesy it is: it’s a matter of fun.
At the end of the day, we all play this game for fun, and unfortunately ANet has for some reason created a game chock full of super-cheesy builds where every encounter is essentially rock paper scissors based on what build you happen to be running. That makes the game very frustrating at times, and that’s why there’s so much hate.
For thieves specifically, it’s not as if you get down 80% HP and then have a chance to rally and even out the encounter; personally if a glass cannon thief jumps me, I’m dead before a single animation plays out. And I’m running a beast of a machine.
It’s just not fun.
I play an Ele without any points in toughness(only in vitality) and I have never been killed as fast as people describe here on the forums by a single thief. Ever. I always have a chance to react. Granted, sometimes my defensive spells are on CD, but that happens in PvP..
OT: When did cheesy start being used? People use in so many different contexts. Most annoying trend I’ve seen so far on a game forum.
As an ele, I rely on the ability to meld abilities. Air attunement with S would be evidence that this is intended it believe.
To all the thieves saying ‘get some toughness’ I run an ele build with soldiers amulet and runes of divinity. I have 18.5k hp and a lot of toughness but I do get 70% + of my hp taken down in a single backstab. When I see a thief stealth I try to throw up defences, dodge, all of that stuff but there are times where they can take you by surprise regardless. (Running up to treb, teamfights etc)
Please stop defending this clearly broken damage because it’s ruining the PvP experience for a lot of people myself included.
As an ele you have plenty of ways to recover too.
Someone doesn’t understand programming very well. : P
On topic, I think this would help a lot.
Burst in this game is a different thing though too. All someone bursting you can do is down you. This is not a kill in gw2.
Yes, but hopefully that next OP build doesn’t can’t do its whole chain in 1/2 a second.
A particular class that utilizes player awareness, and high, fast damage isn’t a new thing. Why are we acting like it is? If you avoid that 2-3 second burst tor average thief is an easy kill. A good thief can still put up a fight, though.
Backstab can easily be countered with damage mitigation, distance gaining utilities, stun breaks(regarding venom) and more. Yes, sometimes your cds are not up, but that’s how it goes. When did people forget that sometimes in pvp you are uneven footing due to other situation s? The real truth of the matter is that even if this particular build gears nerfed, another will come that people will say needs nerfed. The average player first assumes the game is unfair before they will admit they need to learn more.
Before I’m shot down by the inevitable people that don’t read this post fully and say: “WTF ELES ARE SO WEAK RIGHT NOW AND THEIR DOWNED STATE WAS A JOKE” let me say this:
The previous Ele downed state was too weak. I concede this.
HOWEVER
As it was currently, and lazily (a disgusting pattern I’m finding from ANet as way to approach many issues in their game) changed to it TOO STRONG.
Let’s ignore how hard it is with a current Ele bunker spec to get downed in the first place with 2-3 people on you and plenty of stability:
Mist form has NO COUNTER PLAY This is the biggest flaw. There is NOTHING you can do to finish an Ele properly without devoting too many resources or overextending off the point to finish them.
When you come out of mist form, YOUR DOWNED HEALTH RESETS this means you CANNOT counterplay an Ele to mist form by dpsing their downed state, because their health will reset and your efforts will be for nothing. You HAVE to waste a finishing animation on a competent Ele before they mist form, or they will just sit their happily doing damage while you can do literally NOTHING to stop them.
Also mobility. Mist form is unarguably the strongest mobile downed state in the game. The repositioning potential on Mist form is UNLIMITED. You can go off a cliff, behind a wall, all things that FORCE people to overextend to finish you, or your guaranteed to get back up.
Let’s go over other classes and counterplay to their downed state:
Warrior, Ranger, Guardian, Necromancer, Engineer- Stability counters these and you can finish them without pause.
Warrior, Engineer, Necromancer-Having two people finish them, stability not required.
Thief- Teleport with the thief (guardian, thief, mesmer, ele) while finishing them. OR just sneeze at them with aoe and force them to teleport, then sneeze again and they die.
Mesmer- AoE, knowing how the mesmer downed clones appear and it what order.
There is counterplay to every single other class, why is Ele an exception? What kind of design is this to have ONE class far superior than all the others?
NO I’m not asking for a revert. I’m asking for a change.
My proposal, but ANet is far more creative:
REMOVE MIST FORM OFF DOWNED STATE. Period. It was fine when it was on 3, but that makes them a free stomp. So remove it completely, or put it back on 3.
REPLACE Mist form with an interrupt.
-2. Cone of Lightning. Elementalist delivers a shock in a cone in front of the direction his camera is facing, this dazes all hit for 1 second.
This would be an interrupt on PAR with all the other classes, and COUNTERABLE with stability.
All other classes’ downed state can be countered, how is this acceptable that Eles cannot?
As I’ve said before here, you don’t have to omghurrystomp something. Mist form grants an ele a very small window of survival, so that maybe they can use the 3 button that does mediocre damage and CC.(which is can be countered) The 3 seconds of the ele running hoping to get some help isn’t that bad, and once it’s on cool down you can dps us down should you not want to finish. (really you can, I don’t know what you’re doing wrong here)
This thread is a perfect example of why Anet just can’t win. I feel so bad for game companies now.
In your other situation, as a mesmer, you could break stun?shatter or drop a chaos field under you(as immo) is a condition. Then move from there.
If you’re having trouble clicking with blink, there is an option in your menus to cast it wherever you have your cursor at the time. Also, everything in PvP is situational.
What you don’t want to understand is that there isn’t a recipe that works every time. Your ideas shows me you don’t play a mesmer so basically you’re talking theories. I play exclusively a mesmer, i’ve tried all the tricks and chances are that when you’re fighting a thief/warrior which have OP combos, your tricks are on CD and you have less than 1s to do something.
Break stun – solves stun but not the immobilize condition, so bring one but wait.. that arcane thievery has 1/4s casting time and 45 CD and doesn’t work every time, while other condi removals either take to much time to remove condi or have a dead wieght like mantra of resolve which needs recharging. And boy conditions do fly in pvp.
Shatter – you need illusions up. Try create some without a target (stealthed thief). Also requires you to run a power build or else the shattering just makes the thief/warrior laugh.
Chaos field – you probably meant chaos storm. It requires Staff equipped and aiblity ready to go. Same for chaos armor.The option to autocast fields where the mouse arrow is. Horrible to use as you need the mouse to actually steer the toon when you’re moving so you’ll cast the spell somewhere random. And in blink case that doesn’t prevent a thief or anyone with a leap skill to jump straight at you, while you didn’t escape and just wasted a stun breaker.
Sometimes you can do something and you might escape, most of the time you don’t. The reason build X is considered OP is because you don’t have a real counter or you have to change your whole build just to counter it.
As you’re saying, all sPvp is situational, the problem is I can’t change my build in mid combat to deal with a specific build.
Imo this thread will actually go nowhere, regardless of the good intentions, because in order to counter X you have to do Y which in turn requires Z and oh .. look, the next enemy has a differen build that needs the counter build A which requires B etc.
At best, this thread can contain general tips&tricks when using a profession, but not a collection of recipes of ’how to counter build ’.
So as a tip for mesmer, always stack toughness (so that you’ll get only 5-6k dmg instead of 10k+) and use the Staff to have Phase retreat ready.
How to counter Mesmer Moa?
If you can see it, you can run or interrupt. If you get moa-ed just run. I’ve been moa’d several times in the same round and I’ve survived every time. The only scenario where you’re toast is if you get immobilized/stunned and get bursted.
PvP does not provide a static, always perfect situation for the player. To assume your cooldowns should always be up, and that you are never to be at a disadvantage due to positioning, cooldowns, build, etc is an attitude that will net you a lot of frustration in any game that you play. Sometimes you will be set up to lose, there is nothing you can do to prevent that in a PvP environment.
Also, thank you for providing some tips as well.
How do I beat a guardian that uses them hammers that knocks you around constantly? From ELE
I find blinds help, as well as arcane shield or the rock shield(name escapes me) that grants stability helps against them. Blinds are the most universal for an Ele as all our weapons have at least one. As a D/D or S/D you can untarget the gaurd, then use RoTL to quickly get some distance if you get into to much trouble. (the stun field o nthe D MH is great as well.
Let me tell you the perfect combo for a thief: Basilisk Venom + whatever attack you want. Since turned to stone for 1.5 seconds means you can’t do anything , you are dead. A thief only needs less than 1 s to kill you. How do you escape that?
Another great combo, I can escape that only if I’m very lucky (as a mesmer): stun + immobilize + attack. I have to have a stun breaker ready + a condi removal / phase retreat. Now most of the time it isn’t 1 vs 1 so chances are that the stun breaker/condi removal are on CD. And I have less than 1s to react and use 2 skills.
Yes, stack toughness and vitality and you lose ‘only’ 50% HP. Yeah and what next? Everybody plays bunker except thieves. GG
FYI I can survive 90% of times if I’m not stunned/dazed+immobilized.
About blink, let me tell you the funny story. I have to press blink + set the destination + click again to actually teleport and it’s quite funny to aim inside the kitten range while dodging or moving around. But managed to do that, no problem and in the same instant I’ve teleported the same thief leaped at me and proceed to auto attack. Basically I’ve just moved the fight to another place.
So blink is prety unreliable as an escape, dodge can’t happen if you’re rooted. Every solution to the thief problem is quite situational and it has prerequisites. And how many times I was figthing another class, having <50% HP and bam a thief comes out from nowhere and proceeds to down me before I can do anything. That on a mesmer with 2800+ /2900 armor and 16k HP.
Bottom line, you have to be lucky and hope that:
1. thief doesn’t use stun+immobilize / basilisks venom
2. you aren’t with utils on CD or fighting another enemy.
While 2 can apply to any profession, thieves do high damage easily so most of the time you’re dead. Btw I can say that the same problem is with warriors too. Eviscerate does way to much damage to a high armor spec.
I have never been killed in less than 1 second, nor 2 for that matter. In the heat of a fight it might seem like 1 second, though. Basilisk venom can put you in a bad situation, but not a hopeless one.
In your other situation, as a mesmer, you could break stun→shatter or drop a chaos field under you(as immo) is a condition. Then move from there.
If you’re having trouble clicking with blink, there is an option in your menus to cast it wherever you have your cursor at the time. Also, everything in PvP is situational.
Again, this thread is for constructive ideas that can help a player improve. This is not a thread for, “X is OP and Y is hopeless.” This is a thread for “X is giving me trouble, how can Y(the poster) play against this?” So please, if you aren’t willing to contribute to the thread in a meaningful way then do not reply.
God bless your post and I hope this thread survives longer than most productive posts do here. I would post my own advice but I’ve come to realize it’s not welcome on these boards.
Haha. Thanks, I hope this goes awhile as well.
//Reserved.
/*for future posts
*/
I would like to start a thread here that allow all of the members of our community to work towards something we all want, getting better. So, I hope for this thread to help you beat that pesky backstab thief, or the seemingly immortal guardian bunker giving you so much trouble.
-Please, keep it friendly, supportive and helpful. This thread is not meant for flamewars, arrogance, or a place to argue “OPness.” This is a place for presenting problems, and players finding solutions.
-No question is to trivial.
-I will do my best to keep things organized on the first two posts, however scrolling with most likely lead to finding things I over look, or haven’t had time to add to the top posts.
Let’s start with the currently most prominent, troublesome build: The backstab(BS from here forth) thief. I’ll give what has been successful for me(as both a necro and an elementalist) against them, and I invite other professions to share advice as well.
The Backstab Thief
Damage Mitigation: That is, anything that prevents you from taking damage.(whether large,small, or none) As an ele, I can use arcane shield to prevent the frontloaded damage of the thief. As a Necro, I often use DS to absorb the bulk of the damage. If it is not up, I will use spectral armor to give me protection, and to help me get enough lifeforce to fear the thief after his attack to give me some space to heal and recover. Other professions have access to similar abilities that will provide similar aid, ie endure pain for a warrior. Also, damage mitigation against a bs thief is mos useful if I can see him coming and negate the intial burst. This, however, leads to the next point.
Consistent Awareness: While this is helpful for countering the thief, it is good to develop the habit of being aware of everything around you. Seeing that thief coming can allow you to prepare yourself for the damage you’re about to take. Yes, sometimes it is hard to see them in the heat of battle, I understand that. However, keep in mind that the thief profession, especially this particular build, capitalizes on your being unaware. A bs thief will be at a disadvantage should you see them coming. So it pays to keep a mental note of the professions around you, and not tunnel visioning the meat sack you have targeted. Now, besides these main points I’ll compile a list below of other helpful tips.
Other tips
-Movement is extremely beneficial to your survival. So, when you see them steal, turn your character and auto attack. This puts pressure on the thief not only to regain positioning, but damage should you connect(some recommend watching your combat log to help you find them) Also, skills like blink can give you distance from the thief so that their stealth wears off.
-Dodge. I know, I know. You’ve heard this a million times. But that’s because it’s so crucial. When the thief steals, dodge. It gives you space to work, as mentioned above.
-Knockbacks and knockdowns can give you time to work and even waste the thief’s stealth that he/she is dependent on.
Please provide any other input, or feel free to ask others viewing this thread about another build or ability you are having trouble with.
Rick that was the quoted post. You obviously are either not reading anything, or not comprehending to well or you would notice ttwo sides of an agrument and the [/quote] At the bottom there. I have a feeling youre lying, and are taking the fox news approach to arguments.
(edited by tOss.9024)
I’m simply stating a fact. As I was saying, I have played every class in the game. And I see thieves as the top class in pvp. Why do thieves have a higher chance to beat others? This is the question. In a fair fight each party should have the same chance to win. Not all thief players are top players, yet they are winning the most fights.
“strong right now” could be interpreted as op in another person’s view. So in your view they may not be defined as op. However according to the majority of the other players they are op. That is why we see so many people writing posts about how op they are on the forums. How the majority define something makes it a norm. In this case, op as that is how almost everyone else call it.
Thieves team fight may not be the best, but certainly not the worst. Aoe, single target burst are still there. What changed is that they are hated so people target them first Why and who’s to blame for that? I have seen a lot of posts of thief players giving away their weaknesses. Yes, but here is a question. Why should other classes be extra cautious when facing a thief? For example, turning up their speakers just for this one class’s skills.
One combo burst kill is just too easy with this class. After that I can just pop a stealth and walk away. Guess who has the most stealth skills in game?
I don’t really care if Anet does what to this game. But so far their pvps are unbalance. I have many characters so I don’t need to pick a side. Just my objective view.[/quote]
I would consider a good bunker to be a better class than a thief in PvP. Sure thieves are great at killing someone fast, but in a game with a downed state and plenty of ways to revive your teammates this becomes less meaningful. (This isnt a 1v1 oriented game) I feel much more useful on my ele than a thief. I can heal, remove conditions, stop stomps, revive players from a distance, mass cc. In a team game I consider this much stronger than a limited class like the thief.
When I say strong, I simply mean because people just can’t quite counter then yet. But they’ll learn.
Lastly, all professions have things you hours watch out for. As I said in another post Thieves are designed to have an advantage on people unaware of their surroundings, this type of class is commonplace in a mmo.
It shouldn’t take more skill to defend yourself from a thief than it takes to play the class itself.
Currently, all other classes need to spend hundreds of hours playing a thief until you are good enough to recognize the sound and animation they make before a stealth attack, not to mention, anticipate correctly when and where the attack will take place. You also have to hope that there are no other sounds around you or you may miss the stealth/backstab sound. Next we can’t use our stun breaker on anyone else because we have to make it ready to use if a thief attacks. We then have to be ready at all times to execute the stun breaker in .1 seconds after we hear the correct sound and hope that it actually breaks the stun. In the meantime, we will just ignore everyone else. We then have to execute an evasion in .1 seconds to get ourselves out of backstab range and swing wildly in the air in all directions hoping to hit something. If somehow the thief misses and only takes 3/4 of our health with other attacks, we have to get down on our knees and pray that he has used all his initiative, stops attacking and stealths away, never to come back until our stun breaker is back up.
In order to play a thief, one has to complete level 1, purchase the correct armor/weapon, copy a backstab build and practice pressing 3 buttons as fast as possible.
Yeah, the balance seems fine!
This is way to exaggerated. You can use damage mitigation to overcome it as well. I rarely die to a back stab thief on my ele. That’s on an elementalist. And it doesn’t take hundreds of hours to learn the sound of 3 skills. It is relatively easy to counter a relatively easy build to play.
Thieves are meant to have an advantage if they catch you off guard or not paying attention. This Isnt a new thing by any means.
Great advice from both of you, thanks. Is the toughness increase during channeled spells in earth worth traiting for as a s/d using air as your damage source? Since the 1 skill is channeled
I just started an ele, and love the playstyle. However, I notice some eles use water in a very effective manner to heal themselves(while doing decent dps) to really improve their longevity. Any tips on how to do this?
LOL its so funny to see people trying to defend the thief class. If you understand the human psychology then you would know it is natural for them to defend something to keep their advantage.
No one would be complaining if this class was balanced in the first place. Why don’t people complain so much about the other classes? As far I can see they are not bad enough to make it to the hot topics on this section! It doesn’t matter what reasons you guys give. As a fact, the percentage of thieves in game has been increasing. You guys keep on giving references on how some of the other glass cannons are just the same. lmao that’s a joke, because they are pretty much dead if they fail, but as a theif? you just simply walk away without a scratch.
I have played all of the classes, and let me tell you the thief class is op. If you want kills you can just spam certain skills. If we are talking about 1v1 then the learning curve for theif is close to flat in comparison to some of the other classes.
The op combination that thief has: invisible + movement gank/escape abilities + high damage + hard to finish off.
Some people think thieves are squishy, but do you know there are other classes with same / less defence without the invisible and/or movement?
If Anet wants GW2 to be a fast food then just leave thieves the way they are. New players who did not play thief and get killed all the time will :
1 reroll a thief
2 go play a different game not so unbalanced.If you play on the most populated server then you would know so far the number of players are decreasing. Class unbalance may not be the only reason but it is one of the main reasons why people quit. People quit when they dont like something about a game. For example, the class unbalance and the lack of pvp in d3. Very few people are rejoining that game because it is easier to loose player than to attract.
PS: I only use thief in spvp and wvw because they are op. The only time I play other classes are when I actually want to enjoy the other fun parts of this game.
Bottom line, people are NOT stupid, there is a reason why the majority of them play a certain class in pvps.
If you understood human psychology you would know there’s a lot more to it than that. People also tend to pick out things that support their side of an argument. they are also more likely to remember getting beat than winning and Are prone to exaggerate and distort the more they think about it.
Thieves are, no doubt, strong right now but they aren’t OP. OP gets thrown around pretty loose now, when it used to imply a lot more then tough to beat.
There are been tons of threads posted of experienced thieves giving away their weaknesses, and they have Been honest. T
Thieves are beatable, and have little to offer to the team as a whole other than damage. Those 10k backstabs are usually due to debuffs and boons stacked in favor of the thief.
A game should be balanced around numbers, data, utility, and uniqueness vs equality.skill Is to unstable and abstract to balance around imo. Skill should be considered when you implement class depth, but that is different than balance. They already have high and low skill cap professions.
I remember Jon saying soon, but not saying a certain date. When did he Say a certain date?
in all honesty if you play a burst spec with no vit or toughness you cant really complain about thiefs damage because obviously you are trying to do the same thing to them..
its hypocrisy to its fullest.
if you think its so easy change class
Yet when a Thief plays like that, its fine. Because thanks to instant-gapclosers and stealth he will always get the first strike and win. And even in toughness and vitality you still eat a ton of damage.
“you need toughness!”
“got that”
“…and vitality!”
“check”
“trait defensively”
“uhuh”
“go full bunker!”
“yah that worked”
“NERF BUNKERS!”And we already see a ton of people changing classes. Have a look in any starter level zone, or in sPvP. There is a disproportional amount of fresh Thieves.
Have to agree on this. For some reason it is totally ok, that thieves can run around naked, while the rest of us have to be tanks. No other burst-specc can be as survivable nor come close to the burst (I can’t speak of warriors, since I don’t play that class). I dare say that as an absolute in the current state, and I would normally never go around making up absolutes.
There is only one other class, where I can run around naked … which of course is mesmer … and I get openly assaulted, when I beat kitten-thieves hitting my clones, while they are perfectly ok with their AS-softcore-builds insta-gibbing ppl with 3k armor … sigh. No, I don’t mind it, the mentality among some “pro-players” is just … weird.
It is not like the game is unplayable, but if I want to go in pug-groups (of any kind), it is “always” full of thieves, and to survive that I have to go full bunkers (or condition), unless I want to play … thief. Which I don’t. On the positive side, I get to know a lot of bunker/condition-builds.
When I pug on my necro or ele I run a balanced build on both, and do fine against thieves. Anecdotal evidence is insufficient for proper balance.
@nexxe
Honestly, as someone who has worked in customer service, it’s just that no matter how much you do for them someone will always find a reason to complain. Most people are just inclined to do so.
If you’re fighting a 3v3 at a point and you roll in and drop one of those 3 opponents in a matter of seconds, your side just gained a 50% advantage. That you maybe have to peel back and trickshot from afar is irrelevant. You cut their damage output by 1/3 (or possibly much more if you pick your target properly).
That all your damage is frontloaded is irrelevant at that point. You’ve given your guys the advantage they needed to swing things your way (assuming you’re not playing with terrible team mates).
Then your teammate uses a pushback/stun/imo/ etc, and revives or casts a revive. And the thief/warrior/etcis countered and effectively useless for a good amount of time. And a lose of 1 out of 3 people wouldn’t be a 50% advantage.
…
I’m not trying to be funny here, but this is basic math.
You have 3 guys (including the thief) at a point. They have 3 guys at the same point. The thief rolls in and downs 1 guy, effectively removing him from any significant contribution to the fight at that point. You now have 3 guys. They have 2. You have 50% more guys.
And the ‘lol then you can just use some CC and revive’ is nonsense, because any one of those 3 guys can just as easily use some CC immunity for the stomp. You’re still a dude down, and outnumbered.
It’s not rocket surgery.
Hmm, I was drawing the percentages from the original number of players when the fight started. So, you lose one player and you have lost 33.3% percent of your force, granting an advantage of said 33.3% to the the opposite side as well. A simple misunderstanding, and difference in drawing data, my apologies. (we can agree to disagree in which way to go about it I think)
However, you can still cast one of the many near-instant revive spells. If you’re worried about getting rocked by a glass cannon, then someone on your team should have one. Lastly, isn’t it worthy to note that a glass cannon does not succeed 100% of the time in getting a down from their burst? (that is, unless the one getting hit isn’t a to great a player) People speak of this like they down everyone every single attempt.
You misunderstood me, there is an entire group of people working on balancing the game as I write this…
Yes, I got that part. But it just seems to me that the balancing won’t happen for quite some time, I did hope that there’d be some decent balances with the next patch, so the first paid tournaments wont be filled with the same cheesy and OP set up that everyone is tired of facing now. Such as, Assassin signet + backstab combo, this is just plain wrong, retaliation/bunker guardians and of course mesmers…
Why would you want them to rush balance? The things you listed aren’t game breaking problems like some make them out to be.
I am just saying that you don’t need only combat data from spvp. Everyone can roll a thief and have a look at the numers by himself when he goes to the testing range, then do the same with another class’ power build (try a necro).
However, I see why you don’t likt it. Oh wait, it is no real data because you don’t like it (besides the regular backstab bursts everybody can experience in spvp games by himself anyway). Good logic. Honestly, your effort to defend this build is getting comical.
Sorry, you are getting carried by a broken mechanic. I know for some it is hard to accept but…hey…life goes on /pat, pat, pat
Well, a power necro is inherently tougher, has more health, has area control or condition control(depending on build). #
So apples and oranges really.
I think it’s important to not confuse transparency with the goal of effective, and clear communication. They have been pretty good about communicating often, and well I think.
With a community as rabid as the modern mmo community is, a developer really has to watch its steps and give clear information with no room for confusion, and about things that are extremely close and certain to be implemented in a working fashion. Should they fail in any of these aspects, it usually ends up in a big mess among the community. I don’t agree with this, but it’s how it is.
(edited by tOss.9024)
If you’re fighting a 3v3 at a point and you roll in and drop one of those 3 opponents in a matter of seconds, your side just gained a 50% advantage. That you maybe have to peel back and trickshot from afar is irrelevant. You cut their damage output by 1/3 (or possibly much more if you pick your target properly).
That all your damage is frontloaded is irrelevant at that point. You’ve given your guys the advantage they needed to swing things your way (assuming you’re not playing with terrible team mates).
Then your teammate uses a pushback/stun/imo/ etc, and revives or casts a revive. And the thief/warrior/etcis countered and effectively useless for a good amount of time. And a lose of 1 out of 3 people wouldn’t be a 50% advantage.