Guild Wars 2

nicknamenick.2437:

But yeah your AA will do less damage AND you miss:
+10% dmg on bleeding target

You still have bleeds from Precise Strikes and other players.

The only thing I would change about Dancing Dagger is the duration of cripple applied. 3s was fine when GW2 came out years ago. But now it’s way to short with all those cripple reduction traits + foods available. Duration should be increased to 4s.

If I would change something about D/D it’s Death Blossom. Increase evade duration to 1/2s + change 3x bleed to 3x vulnerability.

zacharias.5437:

You can’t target them and no one can revive you in time. So the downed state is basically pointless against thieves.

That’s wrong. Reviving is faster than stomping, no matter if it’s a stealth stomp or a normal stomp. Stomp time is the same and its slower than reviving.

All you have to do is start reviving as soon as your mate has been downed and the thief wont get the stomp. Yep, its really that simple, but most players in WvW don’t have a clue what they are doing.

Swagg.9236:

Why should stealth-openers get a reprieve that the average skill in GW2 does not have? Cool-downs are there to reward opponents for good counter-play; and clutch counter-play is the name of the game in GW2 because we have no dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. Stealth should be treated on the same level as any other skill in the game. It only makes sense.

It makes no sense to me. Stealth openers are way harder to pull off than other skills in the game. The hardest part is to gain stealth at first glance. At least for D/D thieves its not that easy. CnD costs 50% ini. If you miss CnD the ini is lost. Against decent opponents is very hard to actually land CnD. This is a huge drawback.

If you managed to land CnD you have to position yourself. Most D/D thieves run 10/30/30 build with mug, so they have at most 25% run speed, which is 8% less than swiftness. So its not that easy against decent opponents to position yourself to land backstab.

Thats 2 drawbacks. Now you want to add a third drawback by adding revealed when the stealth opener fails. Thats rediculous. Professions with access to aegis and blind would be immun to stealth openers.

This change would definitely kill any D/D build in pvp/wvw.

Great proposal. But we also need skills to counter all the other profession strengths too:

- Remove all adrenaline on hit
- Remove death shroud on hit
- Kill all illusions in a radius of 600
- Kill ranger pets on hit
- Kill all necro pets on hit (oh forgot, its called moa hehe)
- Interrupt blocks an invulns on hit
- Set all attunements on cooldown
- Set all kits on cooldown

When all those stupid garbage is out of the game, we finally can all smash everyones face by spamming #1 all day long.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

To bring this discussion back on track, here are my suggestions:
Stealth
If you use a weaponskill while stealthed, you will become visible.
Revealed
If the skill that broke your stealth deals damage to an opponent, you will gain the effect Revealed.

That way professions with good access to aegis and blinds would be immun to stealth attacks.

People must realize that the drawback of stealth attacks is that you actually have to gain stealth first. A D/D thief has to land C&D to gain stealth, it costs 50% ini. If you miss C&D the ini is lost. You only have one chance to land unless you are at 100% ini. After using it twice you are at 0 ini, aka useless.

Heibi.4251:

Anything stealthed can’t be hit with direct fire, so PBS is useless at that time.

Hide in Shadows most often is used while unstealthed. It has a 1s casttime with an telegraphed animation, thus can easily be interrupted by decent rangers via PBS. It also works for Shadow Refuge because there’s a small delay before the first pulse fires and grants stealth to the thief. It happens to me every now and then that a decent Ranger manages to knock me out of Refuge.

Both situations are crucial for thieves to survive. Break their stealth cycle and you win.

I hate anti player siege like ACs. IMO Anet should just remove that crap entirely. Siege should be solely for destroying walls and doors. Instead Anet should add other options for defending, e.g. loopholes, trenches and stuff like that. FIGHT LIKE A REAL MAN!

I’m a 100% solo roamer and I hate, absolutely HATE this map. If thats Anets vision of large scale PVP maps, I’m out.

If you cannot win against a thief ingame you fight them in forums by creating new QQ threads every day? Bravo!

Valentin.2073:

i can solo camps using my ranger. i’m playing a zerker ranger because i have the guts to do so. you dont go play what everyone else plays and tell yourself you’re good. it just makes you another scrub.

i’ve played my class in spvp/tpvp long enough to get it effective in wvw. seriously, i treat a thief as i treat an ele. just another loot bag i can take for free. the percentage of me winning against a thief 1v1 in wvw is like 90% wins. what i dont like about them is that when they are outnumbered they can easily disengage through spamming an insane number of stealths.

you people should not treat rangers like they are really that bad. i once killed 2 thieves 1 mesmer with the help of a single ranger ally. you guys have been fighting a lot of bad rangers too much.

So you win against thieves 90% of the time but also want them to be nerfed? Really?

Sounds like either rangers should be nerfed or thieves should be buffed. Real balance would mean its a 50:50 chance of winning a 1vs1.

Rangers already got PBS on Longbow which is a great counter to both Hide in Shadows and Shadow Refuge. And Sick ’em = 4s revealed

Dont get to greedy bro…

Probably the pistol was just a dagger and he just Steal → CnD → BS → HS → HS on you. If he gets some lucky crits and you dont evade / SS away, you’re down in less than 5s.

urieldhynne.2743:

frans.8092:

On shortbow/pd? What interrupts?

I mean, you can actually kill warriors without abusing of stealth, you have plenty ways to avoid damage. If you haven’t the capability of spam stealth you will be fine, you only need to rely more in others mechanics and not only abuse of stealth.

What are those “plenty of ways to avoid damage” exactly? Evades and teleports. Wow, lets rewrite all dictionaries that from now on ‘plenty’ means ‘two’.

I dont like the idea of passive DR. There’s already plenty of counters to cc: dodge, evade, block, blind, aegis, stability, stun break.

The problem could be fixed by adding more stun breakers and stability to the game. E.g. thieves dont have access to stability outside of Daggerstorm. Engineers also lack stun breaks and stability on the most useful (kit based) builds.

OverflowMapOverflownException

LunarNacht.8913:

Yeah, certainly on block! The defender used something to block the hit and realizes where the attacker is.

How do you block attacks from behind? How do you block something you dont see coming? An invisible attacker could easily bypass any raised shield.

This is a computer game. So for gods sake stop arguing with real life logic. Otherwise stealth attacks must be unblockable. lol

meikodesign.6471:

teg.1340:

Engaging while stealthed also is high risk, because you eat full damage from cleaves and AOE while stealthed.

Still less risky than engaging while not stealthed…

Other professions have plenty of tools available to compensate risk: High HP, high armor, blocks, invulns, aegis, protection, regen, weapon skill heals, leaps, pets/illusions, aoe area denial, …

Thieves got non of those, but stealth. Deal with it!

Entering stealth already is high risk, because when you miss CnD you loose 50% initiative.

Engaging while stealthed also is high risk, because you eat full damage from cleaves and AOE while stealthed.

So yep, stealthing is risky right now. But the risk is much lower when your opponent doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing.

Stealth already got huge counters. If you dodge/block/blind/aegis CnD or interrupt HS in BP the thief cannot enter stealth and looses 50+% initiative. If a thief enters stealth you can kite away to prevent getting hit at all by backstab. You can also area denial around you so the thief would be punished for attacking you from stealth.

Getting revealed on miss/block on top of all those counters would render stealth completely useless against most professions with good access to aegis/ blocks. The change would provoke skilless passive counterplay.

Btw many block skills already counter stealth almost entirely due to the duration. Evade once then block for 3s is enough time to survive the whole 4s stealth.

IMO engi is far from OP in WvW. The cookie cutter bomb/nade condi build is vulnerable conditions and can be nuked to death from range. Because nades have a huge travelling time they never hit anyone with half a brain unless he is in < 600 range to the engi.

Banners should be destroyable like engi turrets. Problem solved.

I fight for the spikes! More spikes++++

BrunoBRS.5178:

• Mesmer: correct me if i’m wrong, but doesn’t overwriting a clone count as it “dying” for clone death builds? that still doesn’t sound right. the nerf was a bit extreme, but ignoring the problem isn’t a solution.
  Suggestion: instead of outright killing the trait, an alternative that would be that clones overwritten by skills and traits don’t count as “dying”. they shatter, but don’t trigger the clone death traits. that way the trait’s defensive option is still there, and clone death builds have to play by, you know, actually making people kill their clones, instead of doing the job themselves.

I have to fully agree. Crippling Dissipation already is very very strong. It’s 5s cripple without any cooldown. Either Deceptive Evasion should not trigger Crippling Dissipation or put a cooldown of 5s on Crippling Dissipation to prevent perma crippling.

Reveal on miss/block would actually kill all stealth builds. Every profession with high access to aegis would be immun to stealth attacks.

Would be the same as warriors loosing all adrenaline when a burst skill miss. Its ridiculous.

The risk/ drawback of backstab is that you first have to gain stealth and then position yourself to side/back of your opponent. In order to gain stealth you (as a D/D thief) have to land CnD which costs 50% initiative. CnD can be countered by dodge, block, aegis, blind and stuff like that. Thieves only got one chance to land CnD, otherwise ini is gone and you have to pop utilities.

So backstab is counterable by preventing the thief to gain stealth.

BTW: Plenty of skills in this game deal way higher damage than backstab, e.g. Churning Earth, Kill Shot or Arcing Arrow. While Backstab is single target, those skills can hit up to 5 enemies for huge amounts of damage.

My thief got hit for 15k Churning Earth and for 10k Arcing Arrow. The highest Backstab I got hit was 9k. Nuff said.

kyubi.3620:

Again it just legitimise their choice to nerf zerker damage slightly but i think 10% damage loss is hardly punishing enought.

Instead of nerfing everyones damage to fix damage against mobs in PVE, they could just bump mobs toughness in PVE!?

Nop, sry, makes to much sense…

BurrTheKing.8571:

teg.1340:

Healing Signet + Adrenal Health 3:

Now: 517 hps
Then: 487 hps

So the 8% HS nerf is actually a 6% loss of hps. Its even lower when you factor in regen from dogged march.

As always people overestimate the amount of healing Adrenal Health functionally gives you.

First off, AH only tics once every 3 seconds. Secondly, in order for the heal to be significant you need a full bar of adrenaline. Thirdly, every meta Warrior build out there focuses on using your adrenaline very frequently. Most of the time you are only getting the first tier of healing because you aren’t sitting on your adren.

You’re misrepresenting how much hps is actually being gained by just averaging everything out.

Adrenal Health 3 ticks every 3s for 351, thats 117 hps. Add 400 hps from HS, result is 517 hps. Its even higher with regen from dogged march.

Yep its the maximum hps not the average, but its also extremely easy to gain adrenaline after using it. My warrior often is back at 100% adrenaline even before the burst skill is off cooldown.

I play for the sake of fun. PPT is all about zerging and coverage. I dont bother with coverage because I have also have RL. And I dont bother with zerging because its entirely stupid spamming 1111111111111111111 all over again.

I play for the bags, roaming around looking for fair fights. I dont run havoc teams because most of the time you just 5vs1 everyone down. Sure, you die less but you also have less interesting fights.

Healing Signet + Adrenal Health 3:

Now: 517 hps
Then: 487 hps

So the 8% HS nerf is actually a 6% loss of hps. Its even lower when you factor in regen from dogged march.

Cameron.6450:

The blocks/reflect/invuln gives you a great deal of survivability, and the 5s of stealth from the thrown elixir s is usually more than enough to get you away from a zerg if you move cleverly in stealth.

I’ve played this build for a couple of month in WvW roaming around solo. The problem with engi stealth is you cannot dodge while stealthed because Powder Keg will reveal you. So if you stealth to disengage from an outmanned fight you often find yourself cc’ed because without dodging you cannot prevent all those nasty warrior hammers from hitting you. Even if you manage to run aways 5s in stealth you can be chased down pretty easily by GS warriors or thieves.

Solo roaming in WvW doesnt mean you just need a great 1vs1 class. Most of the time you wont have a 1vs1. Most of the time you are either outmanned or you outman the other side or your opponent runs away from you.

So in the long run you dont need the best 1vs1 class. You need a profession which is capable of disengaging from outmanned fights. And you need something to prevent your enemy to run away from you.

Engineer is a great 1vs1 profession, but he’s not that great in disengaging and preventing your opponent from running away. The proposed bomb/toolkit/rocket boots build is ok at both, but it has no access to stun breaks and stability and condition removal is not that great.

Every profession should have viable builds both for zerging and roaming.

Guardians, Warriors, Elementalists, Necromancers. Everywhere.

I’m sick and tired fighting them over and over again. For gods sake Anet, get your class balance right!

drkn.3429:

Increasing the necessity to spend adrenaline in all builds would also help making warriors more complex, introducing more micro play and careful resource management.

Agree. Plus there should be some kind of counter play to warriors adrenaline mechanics. Its way to easy to gain adrenaline in the current state of the game. Adrenaline management should be comparable to thieves initiative. Currently its just some kind of “spam burst skills every 8-10s no matter what”…

Many things are not boons:
- Stealth
- Blocks
- Invulnerability
- Condition immunity
- special effects like Soothing Mist
- …

You really dont want those things to be affected by +boon duration.

Thief should be able to be knocked out of stealth.

You can knock thieves out of shadow refuge or black powder field. you can also interrupt CnD with knockbacks, knockdowns, stuns or dazes.

What else do you need to prevent stealth in the first place?

I dont think warriors are as OP as some people claim. The main problem about warriors is the ease of playing them effectively. This is due to the passive defensive nature of the class. High vitality and heavy armor alone doesnt save anyone. Warriors had this from the start but it didnt help alot before the warrior love patches.

What makes warriors so easy to play is the passive nature of condi cleanse + near cripple/chill/immob immunity (due to dogged march + food/runes) + healing signet + great access to stability. You dont have to be good at playing a warrior because all this comes for free no matter how good you play.

When I play my Ele or Engi I have to put so much effort in being effective. When I play my warrior I just have to pop my utilities + food and spam my burst skills. I use knights armor with zerker trinkets/weapons and I have to problems staying alive in huge zerg fights in WvW while dishing out huge amounts of damage. My ele or engi would die instantly with the same equipment of my warrior in those situations.

Dont get me wrong, I really like playing my warrior, its my main since headstart. But its way to easy to play compared to other classes.

They all play Elder Scrolls Online.

Just kidding. The less dev posts you find in the forums the harder they work on next patches. Unfortunately they dont give a crap about WvW so dont expect too much in the near future.

EOTM looks nice but its a bandaid. I predict it will go live end of march.

We won’t see any WvW changes until end of march because Elder Scrolls Online arrives at 2014/4/4.

Q.E.D.

Hi,

there’s a varity of different conditions in this game. All conditions can be separated into three categories:

Damage conditions:
- Bleed
- Burning
- Torment
- Poison
- Confusion

Movement conditions:
- Cripple
- Chill
- Immobilize
- Fear

Debuff conditions:
- Vulnerability
- Weakness
- Blind

The first category (damage conditions) are the focus of any condition based builds while the other categories (movement/ debuff conditions) are utilized by all kind of builds.

Condition durations can be largely increased or decreased with traits, runes and food. This is a huge problem for movement conditions because some professions can gain near immunity for those conditions (e.g. warriors, engis or eles due to the -33% traits combined with Melandru Runes and Lemongrass).

My proposed changes:
- Each condition is allocated to its category
- Condition duration bonus (from trait lines and foods) should only apply to damage conditions
- Condition Duration Food should be lowered (+40% and -40% is way too much)
- Special traits could still increase or decrease the duration of other categories (e.g. Dogged March), but that should be an exception.
- Each condition removal is allocated with a category, thus removing conditions only from this category
- Introduce more condition removers / revamp the existing ones so that every profession has good access to condition removers for every category
- The most dangerous condition will be removed first (e.g. the condition which does the most damage)

The benefits of the changes::
- No insane (high or low) condition durations for movement imparing effects
- Warriors, Engis or Eles cannot be nearly immun to cripple anymore, so cripple can be used to counter mobility skills like Savage Leap, Rush, Rocket Boots or Burning Speed
- Better control of which conditions will be cleansed.
- Movement and Debuff conditions are the same no matter if you run a condition or power based build

What do you think?

teg

Maesk.8753:

teg.1340:

Cripple is a hard counter to (warrior) mobility skills.

I really hope you’re joking.
Dogged march + melandru + lemongrass = what’s a condi?

lemongrass can be countered with +40% food. Then most cripples will still last 1s which is enough to counter Rush/WW/Savage Leap.

reikken.4961:

I’ve died due to the increased cooldown from chill
my condition cleanse is 2 seconds away from being off cooldown, but I’m chilled, so that turns into 6, so it never comes, because I die

I bet without chill you would have died anyways.

Eiland.1405:

Funny how all the negative response is from ppl who nvr played warrior.
This change will barley result in any DPS gain, only a real noob will stay in LB AAing every where when he got only 5sec swap CD.

LB AA is useful for dealing constant damage from range on moving targets. And it generates up to 4 bars of adrenaline with Furious. The other LB skills barely hit a kiting target from range unless you immob. 5s swap is irrelevant if you are not in melee range to your target. BTW thats the purpose of using a range weapon over a melee weapon set.

Dardamaniac.1295:

The condition has 2 negative effects and no matter how weak you think it is its unfair for a prof to bypass it…But i geuss you and a lot of devs are playing thief so its not a big deal……..

I play thief and I also play classes with good access to chill (ele, engi). I never had a single moment where I killed someone with chill because of the increased cooldown. And I also never had a single moment where I died due to the increased cooldown of chill.

IMO its not that big of a deal. Most chill skills are on such a low duration anywas. e.g. 2s chill – who cares about a 1s increased cooldown duration? What makes Chill so valuable is the movement reduction, not cooldown speed reduction.

But you’re right, thief is immun to this single effect. But other professions also bypass core mechanics, e.g. Mesmer/Ranger deal damage from stealth through illusions/pets without being revealed.

Ouch you are right. Thanks for clarifying.

reikken.4961:

it’s really just a buff to warriors, who will now have twice as many swap sigil procs as every other class

Weapon swap cooldown is 9s, so you are wrong.

Shadow Embrace removes 1 condition after 1s and then another condition every 3s.

If you just have 10 points in SA stealth only lasts 3s, so Shadow Embrace just removes 1 condition.

If you have 15+ points in SA stealth lasts 4s, but you have to stay the whole 4s in stealth in order to let SE remove 2 conditions. Thus you cannot use backstab because it breaks stealth before the 4s is over.

Please get your facts right before you make any assumptions.

The most common WvW build for D/D thieves is either 10/30/30 or 0/30/30/10. I’ve ran both for a long time in WvW. Backstabs with those build normally hit for up to 7.5k damage with 25 bloodlust. Larger hits are only possible against upscaled or full glass players.

A few weeks ago my thief with 2.4k defense got hit in a zergy fight for 15.2k damage by churning earth. I know churning earth is a highly telegraphed skill (played ele by myself). Just saying, thats more damage than a full Steal -> CnD -> Backstab combo on my thief.

nicknamenick.2437:

teg.1340:

Played both Rifle/x and LB/x builds in WvW since headstart. LB#1 does more damage than Rifle #1.

So do i teg,

Try it, take extra bleeding and 10% damage and you see it does more damage, if you have time i can show u. Because i have done this test many times in pvp with someone.

Ofc this depents on your traits etc, but it is possible.. But now we are kinda going offtopic

Attack of Opportunity is not tied to the rifle. Sure, rifle #1 got a garanteed bleed, but with Precise Strikes you apply bleeds with any weapon set. So with LB#1 you got a double chance to proc bleeds for the 10% damage bonus. And with Burning Arrows you are able to get another 10% damage bonus on burning foos.