Guild Wars 2

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Wrong, people that have 1000 gold bought with $ are better than the normal player, because they can afford pretty much anything a normal player needs but can’t.

Bingo!

P2W

cNcHellShadow.7691:

Fuz.5621:

Shlamorel.8714:

There’s good points on both side of the argument here.

For me, personally, I see no foul play in letting real life money buy gems which allows one to buy gold.

Essentially people have two resources to purchase things with: real life money or time (I.e. making money in game instead of using real life money).

I can totally see how some wouldn’t like this feature, I just don’t share that feeling. I have little money to spare in real life but lots of time at the moment, so I enjoy spending more time instead of money. Time is a resource I have at the moment, money isn’t.

I would be of your same opinion, if this didn’t meant that they’re pushing gems selling in shady ways, like lowering drop rates.
And YES, this game is pay 2 win.
Certainly not in a heavy way like many korean MMOs; It may be ligh but it still is pay 2 win.

Can you please tell all of us what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain in game?
The problem is, is people think that paying cash to get something faster than grinding/farming for it is pay to win. This is absolutely not the case. Pay to win refers to games in which a cash shop is designed to offer players items that tend to be substantially more powerful than ANY item found in game. A great example of this is most private servers of competitive mmo’s. They run a system that enticing people to spend money by rewarding players that do pay, ridiculously overpowered gear/skills. Being able to buy something that literally -everybody- can potentially get, does not make Gw2 remotely similar to a pay to win system.

Some of you play word games with the “P2W” definition to support your case. The fact of the matter is that since GW2 does not (yet) have any items that are “substantially more powerful than any item found in the game,” then the fact that you can attain the highest achievements in the game by “buying” them does, in fact, make it the “P2W” equivalent in GW2. Just because people can’t decide what other name to call it does not mean the term does not apply.

Bottom line, If a game is all about progression and achievement and a player is able to attain the end game achievement by paying for it, instead of earning it by progressing to it, then the game is in fact P2W. You can deny it until your face turns blue, but it does not change the fact.

Konfuzfanten.6503:

Gehenna.3625:

It’s a simple thing really. If you put effort into something then it has a value for you. If then someone comes by and gets it cheaply, the value of your effort suddenly is compared to the cheap way. Originally the achievement had the value of what you put into it. And all of a sudden someone invalidates it by giving it a different value.

For example, if it takes you 20 hours of gameplay to get something and somebody buys it for 10 bucks worth of gems. Then your 20 hours are no longer represented by the effort but the money value. In this case 10 bucks for 20 hours of gaming effort.

Curlybaby.6258:

There is value in putting forth the time and effort into developing your character. When you do so, your accomplishments elicit recognition and acknowledgement from friends and peers.

So what you are saying is that, IF i have low self-esteem and cant take pride in my own effort GW2 is P2W?

I need other ppl’s grind to validate my own grind? what!?!

What I am saying is …

1. It has nothing to do with self-esteem or pride, neither should be an issue when playing an online game. I don’t know about you, but I attain neither self-esteem nor pride by playing an online game. Those descriptors might be better suited to the pro “power-curve, gear-grind hamsters” in the game, which I am not one of.

2. The game is all about progression and achievement through progression. Let’s play the game on an even field. In other words, stop playing your game of monopoly with a stack of “get out of jail free” cards, while mine has none.

You know what is truly legendary?

The level of “fanboyism” on these forums.

No one can bring up a point that is even remotely valid against GW2 without the white knights showing up in droves to defend it. The OP has a valid point. To try and defend it is ridiculous.

Gehenna explained it clearly in this post …

Gehenna.3625:

It’s a simple thing really. If you put effort into something then it has a value for you. If then someone comes by and gets it cheaply, the value of your effort suddenly is compared to the cheap way. Originally the achievement had the value of what you put into it. And all of a sudden someone invalidates it by giving it a different value.

For example, if it takes you 20 hours of gameplay to get something and somebody buys it for 10 bucks worth of gems. Then your 20 hours are no longer represented by the effort but the money value. In this case 10 bucks for 20 hours of gaming effort.

Would you work for 50 cents an hour?

This is the point.

To add to Gehena’s post, the assumption also comes into play that you bought your achievement, when perhaps you were one of the few that actually earned it. There is a difference.

Outside of the obvious goal of simply having fun, achievement is everything in an MMORPG. There are obviously many facets to playing an MMORPG. But how can anyone deny that developing your character is perhaps an MMORPGs most predominant objective. The entire purpose of an MMORPG is to progress by developing your character. Without that dynamic, all you have is an FPS.

There is value in putting forth the time and effort into developing your character. When you do so, your accomplishments elicit recognition and acknowledgement from friends and peers. When your achievements are rendered “worthless” because others are able to achieve your same results by simply buying it, then the whole progression dynamic of an MMORPG is suddenly rendered irrelevant.

One can love GW2 without having to defend every single aspect of the game. No game is perfect. Stop trying to make it so. You lose credibility when you do so.

I see the pro-gear grind crowd continues to harp on ascended gear stats and how negligible they may be not fully understanding that the stats in and of themselves is not the issue. The issue is that for years Anet sold GW2 to be a game of horizontal progression. For years we, the anti-grind crowd, followed the game because we loved the idea of a game with horizontal progression. We loved the idea that we finally had a game developer that thought like us and placed importance on creating a game with intelligent design. Not this mind-numbing farce of a game mechanic that simply keeps players on a treadmill with the goal of getting gear with a +1 only to fight monsters with +1 HP.

There are so many other ways that a developer can introduce progression without having to resort to this, the most basic and simplistic of game progression ever created. After all, they don’t call it a “gear-treadmill” for nothing. I have no doubt in my mind that you can train monkeys to succeed in a gear-treadmill game. All it is, is mindless repetition. What is amazing to me is that some of you dare call this skillfull game play, and you dare call those who refuse to “work to play” lazy and uncompetitive. Nothing could be further from the truth. We just demand more from a game than a mindless gear grind.

So let’s keep the focus where it belongs. It is not the stats, or how minimalistic they may be, that is at issue with the non-gear grind crowd. It is the fact that they introduced a gear grind at all. The fact that they simply did a 180 on their oft stated “no gear grind” manifesto, then tried to smooth talk us and convince us that “we were wrong” in our interpretation, coupled with their draconian and heaving handed issuance of infractions, bans, and deletions of our threads and posts when we attempted to express ourselves in the aftermath. These points alone are enough to quit this game. Some of us do have principles.

Those of you who don’t get this are the same people who were complaining that this game had no gear grind. The brainwashed WOW masses that can not think out of the box and believe that they are rendered useless, or that it is not possible for there to be any progression at all in an MMO, unless they are placed on some type of gear treadmill chasing the holy +1 number. You don’t get it. So stop trying to convince those of us who do get it, to simply go with the flow and join you in your gear grind hamster treadmill.

It won’t happen.

Count me as one who has not logged on since the 15th and had not visited the forums since the shameful reddit AMA “PR” whitewash event. I’ve moved on. The only reason I visited today was out of nostalgia. To see if anything had changed.

People should really stop trying to downplay the extent to which this fiasco has hurt this game. No one believes you. I know that me, nor any of my dozens of friends who played this game are currently playing.

For those of you who refuse to believe it’s impact, you must not have been around to witness the 11,000+ thread born out of the outrage from the ascended patch. That’s “eleven thousand plus” posts in one (1) thread. I don’t know about any of you, but I had never witnessed an 11,000+ post thread in my life.

That’s 11,000+!!!!

Out of that one thread alone, how many people do you think left the game out of disgust?

You can keep dismissing and downplaying till kingdom come. As far as the rest of us is concerned … we will not forget!

What many of these posters fail to realize as well is that even if it were true that in the greater scope their targeted posters where in fact the base minority, within the confines of the forum they are, in fact, the vocal majority. And, not unlike elections wherein only small percentages of the population actually vote, it is that smaller outspoken and involved percentage of the population’s ideology that eventually shapes government and rule of law.

Same applies here. The players who post on game forums are generally the more passionate, informed and involved of the gaming community. They have been there, done that, many times before. Their complaints are not limited to that game’s forums. If they are posting here in dissatisfaction, there is a good chance they are posting elsewhere and spreading the word. So that in the virtual world they do become the majority. Words have impact that influence reaction. Silence does not. If I were a game developer I would much rather have 10 vocal customers, than 50 silent ones. Why? because the potential for the revenue generated by those 10 vocal customers is far greater than the potential revenue generated by the silent.

Questionnaires are like statistics, you only get out of them what you put in them. Let me put out a questionnaire. I bet you the results would tell and entirely different story.

Natural.7013:

Minos.5168:

plasmacutter.2709:

Natural.7013:

How is it a boatload? Because you don’t like it, so it’s crap. Vocal minority again.

You don’t even read the rest of my post. BTW, accusing the majority on this board of being a “vocal minority” sounds like the Romney camp before the election. We all know how well that went.

47% of people will never agree with anything ArenaNet does.

Good point.
/thread

You do realize an election was lost based on the acceptance of that philosophy, right?

/checkmate

Hawks.5736:

Columba.9730:

Lifelike.5862:

Memnoch.2589:

So Arena Net promised not to add better dungeons or gear? Meaning once you hit 80 zero progression at all?

Yep. And some people actually think that’s a good idea. Kind of sad, really.

Some people lacked the ability to find things to do at 80. there was plenty of progression. It didn’t require mindless dungeon grinding. I think that’s much sadder – that people wanted the hamster wheel.

Well if your hamster grows up with a wheel in its cage, and then after a few years you take it away from him… hell have no idea what to do with himself. So hes going to “want” his wheel back, but only because he doesnt know a life without one.

Of course hamsters lack the mental ability to realize that there IS no cage, and that they can walk over to another room that still has its hamster wheel. But hey human beings are smarter than that right? So perhaps I chose the wrong analogy…

It saddens me to say that you could not have been more right in your analogy. As it applies to GW2, these players where lost in the world and squirming in desperation for some direction, until Anet came along, picked them up, and placed them on their happy treadmills. They are all happy as a hog neck-deep in a mud pen now.

Columba.9730:

Lifelike.5862:

Memnoch.2589:

So Arena Net promised not to add better dungeons or gear? Meaning once you hit 80 zero progression at all?

Yep. And some people actually think that’s a good idea. Kind of sad, really.

Some people lacked the ability to find things to do at 80. there was plenty of progression. It didn’t require mindless dungeon grinding. I think that’s much sadder – that people wanted the hamster wheel.

It’s actually ironic that players who need a gear grind treadmill call people who hate it “lazy.” All gear grinds are is a mechanic by which to lead those who lack the ability to self-initiate to find direction. These are the same types of players who log into a sandbox game and are constantly spamming the chat box with “what do I do,” “Where do I go now,” and “there is nothing to do in this game.” We see it all the time, don’t we?

Memnoch.2589:

^ As I said..pretty much rewards that really are worthless and doesn’t increase your power whatsoever. Here’s an example how I see it:

Brian “Hey man! Look at my new mask, what do you think?”
Jason “Not bad, what do does it do? and how long did it take to get it?”
Brian “..Well It took me a few days and it looks awesome!”
Jason “Right..but what type of benefit does it give you? Does it increase the power of your character in any way at all?”
Brian “Well it doesn’t do anything for me at all, it’s just for cosmetic purposes, but it does look good..”
Jason “So let me get this straight, you spent a few days working on getting an item that does absolutely nothing for you at all besides making you look different?”
Brian “Yeah..I guess I did.”

See the problem? Maybe you like working for useless items but I sure don’t.

It seems you just seem to have a problem thinking outside of the box. The possibilities are not limited to the options I posted. Those were posted on the whim and only as quick alternatives. The point is that there are many other ways to implement progression other than the archaic, mindless, mind numbing treadmill design that simply rewards you with a +1 that only passes as progression because it is then pitted against a mob with +1 hp. To repeat, at this point I don’t care what they implement so long as its far removed from this stale “WOW clone” design. Its frankly insulting to still be sold this design concept nearly a decade after WOW introduced it into the industry. We are humans not hamsters. Can’t we innovate and move on already!

It seems rather premature to come on the forums proclaiming success immediately after new content has been released. Whether players like it or not, they’ve already paid for the game, its free, so they are going to try out that content. Doesn’t mean they are going to keep doing it. Let’s give it a few weeks, shall we? … then we shall see.

There will be consequences.

Memnoch.2589:

Curlybaby.6258:

1. 0
2. 0
3. 0
4. 0
5. 0

RhysSebastian.7651:

Eh most games have a vertical progression, heck even halo and COD. People like to see power rise as they invest time into it.

IF you want horizontal progression, go to facebook or something …

Except that this game had been advertised and marketed for years as not having vertical progression.

See, this is the gist of the problem with the pro gear grind crowd. You just can’t seem to get it through your heads that the problem that most of us have with the gear grind is that most of us dislike that treadmill mechanic with a passion. We realize that its just a lazy design concept implemented simply to keep players on a treadmill chasing the almighty +1. Had they been honest with us from the beginning and simply gave us the slightest clue that this would turn into a gear grind hamster treadmill game, we would have stayed far, far away from it and let the gear grind hamsters have at it. Instead they strung us along, and a short two months after releasing the game did a bait & switch and turned the game into exactly what many long time loyal GW fans hate about MMORPGs, and they did so without warning and only AFTER TAKING OUR MONEY!

Despicable is the only way to describe it!

So let me get this straight, you want there to be no new armor at all added to the game at lvl 80, you want no new content added at level 80 unless its equal to old content but why do it then to begin with? You want people sitting around doing absolutely nothing at all at level 80 when map completion is done? What the heck do you expect people to do? You do know that breaking down walls or getting zerged in WvW gets boring after a while right? What do you expect people to do? You want same mind numbing dungeons but without any upgrades so you can feel special and not have to work for anything? Why even have a level up system? Some of you people just baffle the hell out of me.

You don’t get it, do you?

There are many more ways to implement a sense of progression other than introducing a gear grind treadmill. The list is endless and only limited by the creative imagination of the developers. But to name a few … it could be any of a number of cosmetic options (armor appearances, city clothing, dyes, unique armor acquisition such as a variety of hats, masks, etc). They could reward us with extra skills and special effects. They could also give us titles, animations, the introduction of additional specific content such as more complicated vistas, crafting. They could enrich the other areas with content for higher level players to engage in … the list is endless.

Surely, you will agree that a design concept that revolves around simply rewarding gear with +1 that can only pass as progression because it is then pitted against mobs with +1 hp bars, is an antiquated mechanic that can only appeal to a simple mindset?

The longer gear grind supporters continue to support this archaic and mind numbing design concept the longer it will be before game developers are challenged into innovating and releasing well thought out engaging content that will revolutionize the industry and ensure its survival well into the future.

1. 0
2. 0
3. 0
4. 0
5. 0

RhysSebastian.7651:

Eh most games have a vertical progression, heck even halo and COD. People like to see power rise as they invest time into it.

IF you want horizontal progression, go to facebook or something …

Except that this game had been advertised and marketed for years as not having vertical progression.

See, this is the gist of the problem with the pro gear grind crowd. You just can’t seem to get it through your heads that the problem that most of us have with the gear grind is that most of us dislike that treadmill mechanic with a passion. We realize that its just a lazy design concept implemented simply to keep players on a treadmill chasing the almighty +1. Had they been honest with us from the beginning and simply gave us the slightest clue that this would turn into a gear grind hamster treadmill game, we would have stayed far, far away from it and let the gear grind hamsters have at it. Instead they strung us along, and a short two months after releasing the game did a bait & switch and turned the game into exactly what many long time loyal GW fans hate about MMORPGs, and they did so without warning and only AFTER TAKING OUR MONEY!

Despicable is the only way to describe it!

endless.1376:

I don’t think that the forums represent the entire playerbase. I do think that people are over exaggerating things in a game that is very new and also has plenty of time to change aspects of its gameplay. Your passion about helping to build a great game is awesome though!

You are absolutely right in that forums do not represent the entire player base. But it is always a very accurate micro-representation of the “pulse” of the player base. Why? Because, not unlike rallies/voting in political elections. players who “rally-up” in numbers at forums are generally the more informed and passionate members of a community whose actions generally dictate actions and direction.

Again, unlike many of you who are blindly dismissing this outrage as “the minority,” I am not here trying to convince anyone to support my point of view. Go ahead and enjoy your gear grind treadmill. I am fully aware that this is what some of you wanted, and you got it. Good for you. But keep in perspective, that if this change was enacted in fear of financial repercussions resulting from complaints by the pro gear grind folks who occasionally complained about it on these forums, those complaints were but a mere “trickle” as compared to the “tsunami” we are seeing played out on the these, and outside forums all over the MMO community, as we speak.

There will be consequences.

endless.1376:

People love to predict doom and gloom for games. They have done this for many MMO’s out there. All ANet has to do is to learn from their mistakes and build a better game as a result. I don’t think Guild Wars 2 is going to close down shop anymore than Guild Wars 1 did.

And people have been right for many of the games that they have predicted doom and gloom. And in each of those games there were people like you and the other posters on these forums who simply chose to ignore the warning signs and turn a blind eye to the damage being done to the game.

The fact is that Anet has not learned from all of these other changes that games have made that illicited outrage from loyal customers who came to forums in droves in desperation to voice their opinion about the game they loved. It should serve as a warning, but instead all you “enablers” chose to do is to label the true long time loyal customer base of the GW franchise as destructive, when if fact nothing could be further from the truth.

All I can say is go ahead and keep on turning a blind eye to the outrage on these forums. The same thing playing out here has played out many times in other game forums in the past. They ignored the outburst in those forums too … to their ultimate detriment.

proxy.7963:

There’s a valuable difference between (self-)censorship and moderation. (Self-)censorship is the result of fear of reprisal from authorities and peers. Moderation is an avoidance of extremes. Granted that ‘extreme’ is rather subjective, I would rather people voice their opinions for or against the recent changes in a manner that was more constrained for the sake of those players who don’t want to get involved in the more heated discussions despite having input. If anything, it’s those players who are likely censoring themselves because of the general atmosphere that’s being created and a concern that their thoughts would result in derision and judgement from those with whom they’re supposed to be enjoying a game. Those who shout the loudest aren’t always the most correct, and they often drown out those with perfectly valid viewpoints themselves.

Many of us have said our pieces for or against the recent changes. Repetition does not make something more true.

The repetition would stop if the issue were to be addressed accordingly. But since it has not, the repetition continues. That’s just common sense.

When there is an exchange of a product for money, there is a responsibility based on ethics and morals, to address those concerns by the buyer regarding any purchase of product for which that consumer spent their hard earned dollars. Irrespective of any other alternative, the one alternative you do not cling to is one of “I got your money, now go away.” And If you adopt that alternative, then expect some push-back.

See where I am going with that?

dendrite.2031:

Curlybaby.6258:

dendrite.2031:

I see no posts being deleted ….

I don’t know if I should laugh or cry.

As far as I know I’ve only seen closed threads, not deleted ones. If am wrong, my apologies.

No apology is necessary. But this is the main source of my disappointment. Personally, I had no issues with the game. I am not even an avid video game player. I am very casual and only play to have fun with my bf since he enjoys playing occassionaly (whenever I let him lol). But the heavy-handed use of infractions, censorship, deletion, and in some cases bans of forum posters simply because they are voicing their concerns over a very legit matter of which they feel deeply wronged is deplorable. This is what what has raised my ire. I find it despicable that a company would treat its long time loyal customers this way and I refuse to stand idly by and just let it happen. I’m feisty that way, what can I say laughs

dendrite.2031:

proxy.7963:

An issue I have with this is not that people are expressing their disappointment, but the feeling that they are choosing to do so in a way that could be considered to involve souring the community by their actions – actions that they may feel are warranted. Those who are strongly against recent changes have exhibited dismissive and occasionally mocking attitudes towards those who don’t share their opinions when they should – by all rights – be taking a higher moral ground. The forums aren’t just for feedback – they should be about building and maintaining a positive community as well, not simply to be used as a podium for people to voice their upset. I’m fine with that upset in itself, I just question the use of moderation and sensitivity towards those who would rather not see dozens of repetitions every day of the same topics by the same posters.

proxy.7963:

(One) problem is people thinking that their opinions and experiences should overwhelm those of others and that those whose opinions differ are, as a result, less valuable to discussion when in fact discussion and debate relies on them to be constructive and not pointless echo chambers.

This is what I am trying to say. I am not so spineless as to have people’s opinions of something COMPLETELY ruin something for me. As I said, D3 was incredibly hard to play well and still get satisfying rewards from. Guess what I did, I switched to another ARPG, one about a thousand times more rewarding, and less than half the price. I stopped playing that game because I started playing GW2. I’m still going to play GW2, but as Proxy said, the forums shouldn’t be a place of hostility, no matter how well reasoned. They should still promote positive and constructive feedback, but not threads that basically say “If you still like this game and aren’t outraged by sudden changes then you aren’t very aware of how badly you were scammed..” etc.

My post is selfish yes. I am selfishly asking people to tone down the harshness of their posts when it comes to expressing their concern. I am selfishly asking people that if they want to change the game for the better, for everyone, then to do so without bashing other players, the developers or the gaming community. I come here because I care about the game, and the Guild Wars gaming community, and I’ll say this as well: If I was a developer, the first thing I would do is read the forums for feedback, and I am positive ANET does this.

I also believe that if you do not receive a response from the developers, as quickly as you would like, it’s probably because they are still evaluating feedback and/or coming up with solutions! Not because they are ignoring you.

ANET is in touch with their gamer community. The fact they had an AMA on Reddit and will have another one! (after such a ‘horrid’ content release) means they have the courage to listen to you in REAL TIME expressing your concerns. I applaud them. I am looking forward to that discussion as well.

I suppose you will be as equally considerate of my wishes when I selfishly ask you to let those who share an opposing point of view than yours to have their voices heard without censorship. Not so much because of any game’s or forum concern, but because I believe that people have the right to voice their opinion when they feel they have been wronged so long as they do so in a respectful manner.

By and large, all of these post are meeting that standard of courtesy and professionalism. You should find comfort in the fact that those that are not are being met with deletions and infractions galore. If not for the heavy-handed moderation on these boards that you are evidently imploring, these forums would be a lot messier than now and you would be even more depressed that you appear to be now.

tkalamba.2541:

Loumy.7841:

Lunar Sunset.8742:

I’m not trying to white knight but you should treat people with decency instead of implying things that you know barely anything about.

So advertising for product A, but selling product B in product A’s packaging, would you say that is called decency?

Just so you know, the manifesto on their blog site isn’t advertising…. Infact, it was just a statement of intentions, intentions that could change at anytime depending on market forces posted on a blog.

Advertisments are PAID announcements in the media, not something written on a company blog, which should always be taken with a grain of salt.

Those banner ads? Advertisements. The TV commercial? Advertisements. If these in anyways said the game would never add anything or whatnot… that would be considered false advertising. A blog post is not.

Please stop being an apologist for Anet.

The lack of a gear grind/treadmill game design goal was the very essence of the GW2 game philosophy, not something that was conveyed via one document. It was a philosophy projected throughout the game’s design for many years.

You and others speak as if we are imagining or confused about what Anet’s intent or game philosophy was for GW2. Stop insulting our intelligence.

Alice.8694:

Raine.1394:

HiddenNick.7206:

Raine.1394:

There’s a simple resolution to the question. Could you define gear treadmill for me?

Why?

Because we are dealing with an unresolved question: Is it a gear treadmill? I say it is, you say it isn’t. It’s a simple question to answer. If we come up with a definition of “gear treadmill” we can evaluate the introduction of Ascended gear based upon that definition. Then, we won’t have that unresolved question standing between us.

A gear treadmill is a system where you must perpetually put in effort to maintain the same level of power as the content around you succumbs to power creep.

Ascended is not a treadmill, as it acts as a higher plateau, demonstrable by the fact that legendaries will be elevated to ascended strength. similar to how exotics were before ascended was introduced.

You can only rightfully claim that there is a treadmill if they add another degree of equipment stronger than ascended at some point in the future. With the express intent of drawing out item progression and forcing you to put perpetual effort into the game to maintain the plateau of power.

We can play word semantics from now till kingdom come.

Its a gear grinder, period.

So … the game was ruined for me due to Anet’s compromise of its manifesto. A manifesto that encouraged me to spend my hard earned money with the false illusion that this game would not be a gear grind game. As it turns out, three months later it becomes exactly that … a dreaded gear grind game. And now you and your gear-grind buddies want me to go away quietly so that you and your pro-treadmill buddies can enjoy, not just your gear grinder of a game, but also your forum in peace.

That is so cute … a bit selfish maybe …. but cute.

The posts written by Einlanzer, Dalendria and Shiren are a work of art and should fully address any concern that the OP or any other pro-gear grind/treadmill player may have regarding the uproar on this forum. If you read those posts and still can not understand the uproar then you are simply not listening.

To that I’d only add this … to me (and i suspect from reading on these forums there are many who feel the same), it is not so much the implementation of the in-game treadmill that has raised my ire. Because many of you are right when you say its their game and they can do whatever they want even if that meant compromising their manifesto. At that point, the only decision left to make is to voice our displeasure and leave.

The sad part about that though is, that Anet does not even have the decency to allow their loyal customers to voice their opinion about their displeasure before leaving. They have simply resorted to blatantly and disrespectfully refracting, censoring, deleting, banning and in essence simply attempting to silence their loyal customers for simply posting harmless responses only because they could. This is unacceptable treatment from a company toward its loyal long-time paying customers. In the year 2012, this type of disrespectful, heavy-handed, draconian treatment should not be tolerated.

I’m not only playing less, I’m not playing at all.

I refuse to give my money to a company that infracts and deletes customer’s post off of their forums simply because they voice their displeasure over a product that changed in stated philosophy and functionality as it was advertised, not very long after customers had finished paying their hard earned money.

Stormleaf.1769:

Curlybaby.6258:

Astraea.6075:

Curlybaby.6258:

It makes no sense to engage with the pro-gear grind treadmill crowd. They got what they wanted so of course they are going to come on the forums and defend the despicable act. Ignore them. Our issue is with Anet. Personally, my dissent is not so much because they compromised their integrity by totally doing an about face in what they sold the game to be, but the fact that they refuse to honestly address the matter and be honest with the community, many of us who have been loyal supporters of Anet until this fiasco. All they had to do was be sincere with the reason for their sudden change of game philosophy. Instead what we are getting is infracted, censored, deleted, banned, and just basically ignored. This is no way to treat a customer. Their treatment of this community has been nothing short of abhorrent.

I’m sorry to use you as an example of what I see is a problem with these sorts of threads, but I see multiple instances of statements that the company is refusing to be honest with it’s customers. What leads you to believe this? There was a blog post where they stated their reasons, and all the people in an uproar decided that it was just a PR exercise.

While you may disagree with the reasoning (and I’ve seen some good examples of this), what has lead you to think the blog post wasn’t sincere?

Their response to date simply insults the intelligence of those of us who know better. Which is all the more disdainful.

Baselessly calling their response a lie is equally disdainful and insulting.

Whatever. Like I said, I have nothing for you pro gear-grind treadmill players. Believe what you want, enjoy your game. My issue is with Anet. My post is directed at them. If they read it, it has served its purpose. If not, fine. It matters not. They have lost this customer regardless.

Astraea.6075:

Curlybaby.6258:

It makes no sense to engage with the pro-gear grind treadmill crowd. They got what they wanted so of course they are going to come on the forums and defend the despicable act. Ignore them. Our issue is with Anet. Personally, my dissent is not so much because they compromised their integrity by totally doing an about face in what they sold the game to be, but the fact that they refuse to honestly address the matter and be honest with the community, many of us who have been loyal supporters of Anet until this fiasco. All they had to do was be sincere with the reason for their sudden change of game philosophy. Instead what we are getting is infracted, censored, deleted, banned, and just basically ignored. This is no way to treat a customer. Their treatment of this community has been nothing short of abhorrent.

I’m sorry to use you as an example of what I see is a problem with these sorts of threads, but I see multiple instances of statements that the company is refusing to be honest with it’s customers. What leads you to believe this? There was a blog post where they stated their reasons, and all the people in an uproar decided that it was just a PR exercise.

While you may disagree with the reasoning (and I’ve seen some good examples of this), what has lead you to think the blog post wasn’t sincere?

Their response to date simply insults the intelligence of those of us who know better. Which is all the more disdainful.

nachodragon.8159:

Stormleaf.1769:

Just because you think they’ve reversed their philosophy doesn’t mean they have. Clearly they don’t feel the same way, and in the end, it’s their philosophy, not yours. It’s not ArenaNet’s fault that you fail to/refuse to understand their design goals. They know what they’re doing with their game, you do not, no matter how much you want to believe that you do. Just because you think they’re going down a road of endless gear-grinding and player-ignoring doesn’t mean they are.

But, if people can’t accept that, try thinking of it this way:

Prior to this patch, I bet you thought ArenaNet would never introduce your idea of a gear grind, right? But then they did. Therefore, going purely by past precedent, you have terrible judgment. Now you think they’re going to add an endless gear treadmill, right? Chances are, you’ll be wrong about that, too. So calm down!

A ridiculous argument? Yes. But then again, so is most of the rage over this issue.

By your own logic, you have called them Liars. They have told us on several occasions they would do one thing, and now they have done another.

If I tell you I am baking you a cookie and you get excited for a cookie, then I hand you a carrot, does that mean you should not have gotten excited for the cookie? Are you going to eat the carrot when you were told you would get a cookie? Or do you look at the person giving you the carrot and ask why?

It makes no sense to engage with the pro-gear grind treadmill crowd. They got what they wanted so of course they are going to come on the forums and defend the despicable act. Ignore them. Our issue is with Anet. Personally, my dissent is not so much because they compromised their integrity by totally doing an about face in what they sold the game to be, but the fact that they refuse to honestly address the matter and be honest with the community, many of us who have been loyal supporters of Anet until this fiasco. All they had to do was be sincere with the reason for their sudden change of game philosophy. Instead what we are getting is infracted, censored, deleted, banned, and just basically ignored. This is no way to treat a customer. Their treatment of this community has been nothing short of abhorrent.

Colton.9460:

Yes my groupies will get bored of it after we have maxed everything, the point seems to be that we make up enough of the population of the game that Anet saw fit to cater to us. It seems like their are a lot more of people in group 1 then most group 2s want to believe.

Of course you gear-grind treadmill players make up enough of the population. What type of player do you suppose plays WOW? That game has a player base numbering in the millions of that population. The point being is that this is not the game that ANet sold GW2 to be. ANet simply got greedy and decided they wanted part of that population and in doing so they compromised their integrity, long stated manifesto, and succeeded in a big way in alienating their long-time loyal customer base.

We will see soon see how this turns out for them.

Waffler.1257:

Jairyn.6913:

Can we at least get a promise on no trinity and no raiding? Or is it only a matter of time?

Anet doesn’t make promises …

… they can not break.

Thrombus.1796:

Lindsey’s own words, “the edge in end-game” …

Ouch!!

That stings.

Colton.9460:

@ curly- The point is that me and my ilk like to become more powerful, even if scaling dictates that given the increased difficulty of the dungeons we are still the same. I like the look of my Exotics; playing dress up is what my daughter does for fun.(no offense)

No offense taken. I, for one, like playing dress up. Matter of fact, my favorite game is Second Life but my bf likes GW2 so in order to play with him, I sometimes play GW2. He’s not really happy with the direction GW2 has taken but he isnt one to complain too much. He just grumbles lol. He is, however, one to stop playing a game if the game decides to make radical changes after its release (ie., nerfs) which is what i suspect he will do with GW2. But I can’t speak for him. All I can say, with great certainity is that, I for one ….

… am not a hamster!

We are not hamsters!

ckeeton.4907:

Curlybaby.6258:

Colton.9460:

Sometimes people on this forum confuses me. How does rewarding players for playing the game not equate to people having more reasons to play the game?

Because there are many other ways to reward players for playing the game without having to deceive their player base and compromise a long stated manifesto by instituting the dreaded gear-grind treadmill.

its only a gear grind if you make it one.

A gear grind is a gear grind is a gear grind. You can put a blinder over your eyes all day long and say it over and over again but that will not make the gear grind go away.

Colton.9460:

Sometimes people on this forum confuses me. How does rewarding players for playing the game not equate to people having more reasons to play the game?

Because there are many other ways to reward players for playing the game without having to deceive their player base and compromise a long stated manifesto by instituting a dreaded gear-grind treadmill.

We are not hamsters!

Colton.9460:

CaptainVenus.5179:

How much are they paying you people to come out with this bullkitten?

Trust me if anything after the amount of gems my miniguild has bought and spent of stupid stuff in the store I am more inclined to believe we bribed them to change the game lol

Then I hope for ANet’s sake that your miniguild can support their game because they’re going to need all three of you to spend a lot more to make up for the masses of miniguilds they will lose after this fiasco.

Even “Progressionist” should be rebelling against the behavior exhibited by ANet in this patch. How can any developer or anyone for that matter, with a straight face, repeatedly tell an entire loyal player base that GW2 would never be about a gear-grind treadmill and less than 3 months into the game’s release make it exactly that, a gear-grind treadmill. How can a developer who 180s so blatantly regarding the most core concept of their game ever be trusted?

It boggles the mind.

Wasselin.1235:

Amulrei.4973:

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

Oh kitten off. I play games to enjoy myself when I am not working. I do not pay for a game just for more work.

You will have to forgive him. WoW-type games have conditioned an awful lot of people to view this as acceptable.

Not even. The grind in WoW I think is actually more enjoyable because you are getting more “upgrades” along the way that you need to face challenges that are just a tiny bit harder. In WoW the grind might be longer and higher, but there are more steps along the way. In GW2 the grind is like three gigantic and long steps.

Why do I keep seeing words like “upgrades” and “harder” from “elitists” and pro-gear treadmill lovers. It is not an “upgrade” people. It is a cosmetic upgrade with higher stats. And those mobs you’re fighting are not really “harder,” they are just mobs with higher health pools and ready for this? … cosmetic upgrades!

Such a simple concept, so readily ignored by gear treadmill lovers.

mulch.2586:

Curlybaby.6258:

Cyric.7485:

Artemis Noir.3804:

I just love this, people who call an argument sad when they are not capable of formulating a real rebuttal. rolleyes
As somebody else stated, it’s simply that you don’t like to be reminded of the fact that once upon a time you knew nothing. And going by some of your statements I’m beginning to think that you know more about gear stats than you do about actual skill,

I think what you’re having a difficult time comprehending is that not everyone in the world is a carebear chomping at the bit, frothing at the mouth, and wildly enthusiastic about helping people. Not many people want to spend their limited game time helping out complete strangers every day of the week, no MMO has ever been like that and no MMO ever will be, sorry to bring you back to reality.

While you’re sitting here acting like you’re so morally superior to the elitists, you haven’t realized that you’re just another elitist in a different form and thus, the circle of the internet continues to go ’round.

EDIT: Dear everyone else in this thread, elitists aren’t keeping you from this content. Your submission to them is what’s keeping you from this content, if some of you would put your dramatics aside you’d realize that elitist groups aren’t the only groups available for FotM. You never see elitists posting that all the casual carebear groups are making it difficult for them to do content, you know why?

Because we make our own groups. :O

Somehow, I think you’d see it differently if a dungeon catered to casuals disadvantaged “elitist” because they were “overqualified” for the dungeon but yet the “elitist” needed to get items from said dungeon to complete an armor set, and “elitist” were the ones who were consistently “kicked” from said groups.

Ya think we wouldn’t have a whole legion of “elitist” on these forums crying foul?

What are you imagining? A dungeon that only lets you in if you’re wearing greens and yellows? That no one is over a certain level?

I remember in Lineage 2 (my first NCSoft game), there were these tournament things you had to do to win for your side, and they had tiers that restricted power levels. So the “elite” of us kept characters deleveled to make the ideal group (because a lot of in-game wealth depended on it).

Trust me, the elite can manage their access to whatever they want.

There could be many examples. Game designs can only be limited by limits imposed by the respective game’s designers. It could be as simple as having a low level dungeon catering to lower level players that dropped a rare “soulbound” mat needed for a rare high end armor set. The design may have been implemented to encourage occasional grouping between high level players (read; elitist) and lower level players. But the dungeon was designed in such a way that certain “elitists” builds were more desirable in groups than others. This would cause the lower group leader to shout"LF1M “elite” w/+<whatever>," so that any elitist without the +<whatever> would get kicked from the group upon discovery. This is pretty much the way it works now only the roles are reversed, is it not?

lagrangeify.5641:

Curlybaby.6258:

lagrangeify.5641:

I know, I know. Calling on people to try to keep in perspective is not the done thing. Maybe it’s my age, but I’m patently less inclined to throw the baby out with the bath water than many of the “that’s it! I QUIT!” people out there…I mean, seriously? Quitting a game that’s already been paid for but continues to provide stuff to do for many? I admit it, I just don’t get it.

I think you are wasting your time if your purpose, and those who think like you, are to come on these forums and “call on people to try to keep things in perspective.” What you people don’t realize is that some of us “hate, hate,hate” gear treadmill MMOs. And if we had been told that GW2 was going to become a “gear treadmill” MMO, we would have stayed far, far away from it, just as many of us have stayed far, far away from the leagions of copy/paste WOW clones in the MMO genre.

It has nothing to do with having things handed to us, or desiring ease of game, or being over-dramatic about what many of you call a “minor” change. It has everything to do with the fact that we were promised GW2 would be the anti-gear-treadmill MMO and we purchased the game under that premise, only to be back-stabbed by turning a game we planned to play for a long while into a hated gear-treadmill MMO.

I understand many of you wanted GW2 to become a gear-treadmill MMO. I read your threads from time to time on these forums so I know you are out there. You are all the same people who are chastising us who are voicing our displeasure because Anet has done a complete 180 on what they had promised us this game would be.

All I can say is you got what you wanted. A gear-treadmill MMO. Just please stop trying to minimize the feelings of “the deceived.”

I didn’t ask for a gear treadmill either, so quoting me and then lumping me in with some mythical group of your own invention just for suggesting that people try to stay on planet earth?

As I said, I understand the frustrations, some of them I share. I’m just not having a brain fart over it. You however, are probably a prime candidate for an accute myocardial infarction if this is how you carry on whenever you hit a few wrinkles in life.

You selectively picked a portion of my post that was merely used to clarify a point, and in so doing you you missed the entire point of my post. Perhaps I should not have included you in the wanting a gear treadmill crowd. But that was not my point. To clarify, my point is that “people are having a brain fart” and threatening to quit for a legitimate reason. You may not think it legitimate, but others do for the reason stated in my post. And I am far from having a <insert big word.> This may be news to you, but unlike many people, video games have no impact on my personal life what so ever. I only play video games every once in awhile to have fun with a hobby that my bf enjoys. Right now I just happened to be reading the forums while he is at work and I voiced my opinion about the matter. Simply that and nothing more.

Cyric.7485:

Artemis Noir.3804:

I just love this, people who call an argument sad when they are not capable of formulating a real rebuttal. rolleyes
As somebody else stated, it’s simply that you don’t like to be reminded of the fact that once upon a time you knew nothing. And going by some of your statements I’m beginning to think that you know more about gear stats than you do about actual skill,

I think what you’re having a difficult time comprehending is that not everyone in the world is a carebear chomping at the bit, frothing at the mouth, and wildly enthusiastic about helping people. Not many people want to spend their limited game time helping out complete strangers every day of the week, no MMO has ever been like that and no MMO ever will be, sorry to bring you back to reality.

While you’re sitting here acting like you’re so morally superior to the elitists, you haven’t realized that you’re just another elitist in a different form and thus, the circle of the internet continues to go ’round.

EDIT: Dear everyone else in this thread, elitists aren’t keeping you from this content. Your submission to them is what’s keeping you from this content, if some of you would put your dramatics aside you’d realize that elitist groups aren’t the only groups available for FotM. You never see elitists posting that all the casual carebear groups are making it difficult for them to do content, you know why?

Because we make our own groups. :O

Somehow, I think you’d see it differently if a dungeon catered to casuals disadvantaged “elitist” because they were “overqualified” for the dungeon but yet the “elitist” needed to get items from said dungeon to complete an armor set, and “elitist” were the ones who were consistently “kicked” from said groups.

Ya think we wouldn’t have a whole legion of “elitist” on these forums crying foul?

lagrangeify.5641:

I know, I know. Calling on people to try to keep in perspective is not the done thing. Maybe it’s my age, but I’m patently less inclined to throw the baby out with the bath water than many of the “that’s it! I QUIT!” people out there…I mean, seriously? Quitting a game that’s already been paid for but continues to provide stuff to do for many? I admit it, I just don’t get it.

I think you are wasting your time if your purpose, and those who think like you, are to come on these forums and “call on people to try to keep things in perspective.” What you people don’t realize is that some of us “hate, hate,hate” gear treadmill MMOs. And if we had been told that GW2 was going to become a “gear treadmill” MMO, we would have stayed far, far away from it, just as many of us have stayed far, far away from the leagions of copy/paste WOW clones in the MMO genre.

It has nothing to do with having things handed to us, or desiring ease of game, or being over-dramatic about what many of you call a “minor” change. It has everything to do with the fact that we were promised GW2 would be the anti-gear-treadmill MMO and we purchased the game under that premise, only to be back-stabbed by turning a game we planned to play for a long while into a hated gear-treadmill MMO.

I understand many of you wanted GW2 to become a gear-treadmill MMO. I read your threads from time to time on these forums so I know you are out there. You are all the same people who are chastising us who are voicing our displeasure because Anet has done a complete 180 on what they had promised us this game would be.

All I can say is you got what you wanted. A gear-treadmill MMO. Just please stop trying to minimize the feelings of “the deceived.”

chuckle … I can only chuckle when I read “elitists” write so seriously about how “great” they are with their “top-gears” and how they will only play with equally “great players” who are also “top-geared,” while all the while looking down at the pitiful masses who have not achieved their “greatness.”

um … helloo, it’s a video game! lol.

I was in agreement with your entire post until this …

Djinn.4396:

Regardless of if they ever realize that they made a giant mistake by not having more than 5 player PVE content..

5 player PVE is casual friendly.

Just like your reasoning with a dungeon finder, most casual players have enough of a hard time finding “1” compatible player to play with, much less “5.”

Implementing PVE content that requires more than 5 players is NOT casual friendly.

Amulrei.4973:

The dishonesty is the worst problem I think. All the months of reading “The Golden Rules of GW2” or Design Manifestos that turned out to be nothing but rubbish. No one likes being lied to and hates being made a fool out of even more. AN has done both in the space of a single week.

The above is worth quoting.

It is teh “biggy” for me.

It was all “hype” after all, wasn’t it?

biggs.4702:

You guys need to remember 3 things:

1) ArenaNet has access to data you will never see and your opinion means nothing compared this data (not in a mean way but because facts > opinion).

2) ArenaNet is way smarter than you are. And they’ve proven this time and again. This is compounded by the attempt at doing something different which people just aren’t getting (or worse, think they get it but really don’t). When it comes to these philosophical outlook points, ArenaNet is going to stick to their guns (such as with dungeon difficulty). In other areas they’ve proven they listen (more back slot items in game and FOV changes are just two quick examples). But for any point where they seem to not be listening, see point number one above.

3) You’re not a game designer, and what you want to see in a game only speaks for your own desires and not the rest of the player base. You never speak for anyone but yourself. And in case you think you know more about game design than ArenaNet, please refer back to point two above.

The same was said for the NGE Star Wars Galaxies developers.

Do a little research on them, then get back to us.

EliteZ.1682:

So the game is bringing out a very slight gear improvement, i would hardly say Anet are forcing a massive gear treadmill on you. Atm it is only on bags and trinket and the image of the two rings show there is a +5 stat difference between the exotic and asceneded, would you say that’s game breaking? Maybe none of you want any character progression, but i for one and i know alot of people who have quit or didn’t want to buy the game becasue there is no character progression at all. I don’t want to be runing around in the same gear for the next 7 years, yeah GW1 had no progression, but GW1 was 90% based on PvP. GW1 was NOT a MMO. No other mmo on the market has no character progression once you hit max lvl because it’s something that makes an mmo an mmo. This is hardly like WoW where your gear becomes completely uselss every few months when a new raid comes out and you spend the next few months farming the next tier of gear. You can do everything in the game still without the ascended gear unless you’re getting into the high lvls of the new dungeon

There is gear progression in GW2, its just that it is cosmetic and not statistical, which is just fine with the majority of GW fans. You say the gear progression initiated by Anet is “very slight.” What you fail to realize, however, is that at the very onset even earthquakes start with “very slight” cracks, hurricanes start with “very slight” winds, and forest fires start with “very slight” sparks. I can sympathize with you when you say that you and many others did not want a game without gear progression. The bottom line in that regard is, that this game never promised gear progression. So it stands to reason that by its very game design, well advertised before game release, that this game was no more for you and your friends who wanted gear progression, than the game of football is to a legion of french fashion super models.

I don’t mean to be insensitive but having that many issues with one game only screams the obvious, and that is … sometimes people just have to accept when a game is not for them and move on.

yes! especially if you have mini-games tied into it like fish collecting, titles, gathering, and the potential for the rare fish or item drop. It would be a nice addition to the game.

Cerulean.5142:

Whether I agree with them or not, the game needs them. GW2 is not perfect, most of what OP has said has been said many, many times before. Maybe it is time Anet looks at these comments and starts making changes to fixing them.

No game is perfect Cerulean. No game will ever, ever satisfy everyone. Many will be happy with GW2, and many won’t. It is really as simple as that.

One thing that GW2 has going for it, is that it is at the top of nearly every game site rating board and its reviews are overwhelmingly positive.

In the end, that really is all that matters because once again, no game will ever satisfy everyone.