Removing the lake, one thing that added some more skill options for players? But buffing the strongest side? facepalm
Who makes such design decisions? This one deserves the responsible designer to be reassigned…
Why? Why? Why?
Yes, this design has so many flaws, considering southsun, I rather would have the “crap” toss event than this. As survivor, doing nothing is best strategy, as ghost doing nothing is most likely what you can do, because there just aren’t enough revenge notes…
In my opinion this minigame rates very low – only the bugged dragon ball rates lower. Mad King and Wintersday had some really nice activities; perhaps ANet might restart those again, soon. Mad King should be upon us in a few weeks (just around 10 or 12 weeks).
I have enjoyed the debate, however I feel we must part ways and agree to disagree.
As you like. I don’t mind if someone disagrees with my opinion, everyone is entitles to his.
Yes you have clarified it very well, It’s not what anet thinks is fair, its what you think is fair.
I’d consider it rather crudely summarized, but I have to basically agree, that in my opinion ANet made a bad choice and I would like them to correct it.
On one hand you say GW2 is a completely separate game, but on the other you say yes they share the same history.
Yes, this is true for a lot of games that have more than one part. Sometimes the existing game is expanded (i.e. Ultima Online, GW1, Diablo 2, Neverwinter Nights), but sometimes an entirely new game is released, which shares a common heritage and sometimes story background (i.e. GW2, Diablo 3, Neverwinter Nights 2).
I say that because at no point have you or can you show in writing by anet there has been any wrong doing about this.
No, sadly there is nothing by ANet on this topic – yet. I still am waiting for an official statement…
But I did link some together the same way I linked GW2 to them.
My bad, maybe I was not clear enough on this…
What I meant was, if a GW1 player has one account for Prophecies, could he add the expansions Factions, Nightfall and Eye of the North to the existing account or did he have to create 4 different accounts and then link those accounts to get titles carried over from one game to the next?
If he could just add the expansions to the existing account, then it’s more of an indication of it being the same game, whereas with GW2 you create a new account and link old GW1 accounts to the new one, which gives more of a separate game impression, doesn’t it?
Some people feel you think it is “easy or fast” because you stated they are undeserving of what anet has giving them. as far as the ap. Most people feel you don’t know what your talking about since you haven’t done them.
Still, I think I clarified this in great detail by now, that it’s not the rewards in itself that are in question, but only the type of reward.
And you are right, I don’t know and won’t ever know what it was like for those people to get their titles. I can only assume though, they did this by playing a game they liked anyway, and furthermore I assume they were proud once they accomplished the title and they wore it accordingly in GW1 already.
People keep saying “completely separate game” for those that say that, they have not played all of GW1, different engine absolutely, different game absolutely not.
I doubt that absolutely.
Your “different game absolutely not” could equally mean “same game absolutely”, which might just be a wish of some GW1 players and might even have been ANets intention, but if it was, I daresay it failed.
Granted, there are similarities, but there are many differences. Apart from the technical difference the engine provides (which, as the engine change within the Ultima Online world showed, is not an absolute necessity) the world is changed as well. No player characters from GW1 exist in GW2 (and vice-versa). The stories told in either game are quite different, although GW2 can benefit from the previous history of course. The games are related after all, but apart from an account linking system hardly the same game at all.
BTW: Did you have to link your accounts in the previous GW1 expansions, or did you just add the new game to your account? I’d say it’s another indicator on how different the games actually are.
So with what they wanted to do they had to create a new game.
Exactly my point. Thank you.
ArenaNet is working on re-balancing the achievements. ArenaNet took a look at the difficulty of obtaining some of the achievements and adjusted the score based upon the difficulty.
If they released a complete overhaul instead of just tampering with HoM points alone, all this fuss might have been avoided – yet they didn’t. So I hope they will fix this issue with a better rework soon.
If you don’t think GWAMM it is difficult look at the following links. Then just think of the grind that may be needed to obtain some of them.
Why do you assume I think this to be either easy or fast?
I just think it belongs to another game and thus should not affect the current one as much as it does now. So if they had to grind this much in preparation to GW2, well, give them a precursor for their troubles, or any other kind of reward that does not mess with this game’s score.
That’s how GW2 was presented to us, as they decided that they could not deliver chapter 5 without a better engine, and gave us GW:EN to help us transition.
Just on a side note to the engine, in the late 90s there was a game called Ultima Online (some of you might even have played it). In the early 2000s they decided to update the engine from isometric to 3D (which in itself was not the best of decisions, due to other reasons ).
But even though the engine was changed, the existing world remained (new parts were added), the characters remained, and even though you had to buy the update (in addition to monthly fees at the time), it was truly an expansion and continuation of the existing game.
GW2 broke with the existing GW1 world, its existing characters and in comparison feels much more like a new book in a familiar world instead of a new chapter to an existing one.
is it retroactively or a correction, if it is a correction then should not anet be commended for acknowledging it and adjusting accordingly?
No. I’m sure some people see it as a correction, but commendation would be totally wrong, since this “correction” came by itself without need. If they overworked the whole system, and within this readjusting changed the HoM points as well, they might not have had such an impact on the ranking as they have now. But unless the ranking would be differentiated by time frames (i.e. Achievement Points July 2013), there are always some who lose something in those changes…
if all of a sudden people log on one day and get 100’s more points “retroactively” then are they in the wrong.
Possibly. It depends on how they change those achievements. There are some ways to do it right and many, many more to do it horribly wrong…
The difference of opinions here is you want any and all ap to only apply to GW2 and only from GW2.
That is the case, yes. We all bought GW2 and – at least I – want some friendly competition, but on a level playing field.
Just like my bike analogy from earlier, we are all driving motorcycles, but as of a sudden the rules were changed so that last years bicycle races are put into account, too. But, you are free to participate in this years bicycle races and have those points awarded to your current motorcycle standing. All you have to do is to buy the bicycle and learn how to ride it – but be warned , it may be more strenuous than riding your beloved motorcycle. Somehow I don’t want to go back and ride this bicycle…
Where as those who were loyal to anet feel their loyalty to the Guild Wars “product” in its entirety should have its benefits.
It would appear, anet feel the loyalty to the product as a whole has its benefits.
And surely they shall have those rewards – but, since I get the impression that everyone here defending the HoM points thinks those points to be essentially meaningless, why not opt for some real reward for your chars?
and by doing so alters the state of scores.
That is true, yet before the changes were made and everyone could then chose to participate or not to participate in getting those points. The difference here is, that up to 480 points were just added retroactively to an existing score – a subtle yet annoying difference.
and to also to give others the reason to acquire them through the purchase of those additions of course. Possible even a third possibility is to give the completionist a reason to get them.
That might have been a reason (if it were, I’d be disappointed, though). I do like to “complete” the game, yet completely refuse to go back and play an older version game just so the current game could be more “complete”…
Also the ap change in no way gave something to the vets that any and everyone can have
Like I said before, I do not mind those vets getting stuff, maybe they should get a free precursor of their choice for 50/50, convenient but not better than others and it wouldn’t break any game balance there either.
But you choose anyway to use that one to base your argument on time/value ect when doing the math.
No, like I said, only in the course of this discussion I came to suspect that maybe the WvW reference – despite it currently being the only long term achievement reference – might be flawed in itself. But, lacking any other long term reference, those numbers still stand true – until either issue is addressed.
But having dealt with anet and their shenanigans for so long I’ve learn to roll with the punches.
Maybe, just maybe, I will support ANet again sometime. As it is now, I am still quite disappointed by their latest development and – to put it mildly – reluctance of communication on this issue.
Numbers mean nothing if they aren’t accurate. It also doesn’t help if you pick the outliers for the sake of argument.
And yes, WvW achievements, pvp achievements, as well as some others, certainly need some reevaluating.
You’re right, numbers should be accurate – and if they aren’t I stand easily corrected. And as there was (is) no other frame of reference available concerning long term achievements, it’s hard to tell outliers. I hope we can agree on the reference not being optimal, yet as a current state of the game still valid. On the long run, I hope they will change not only HoM, but WvW and PvP achievements as well
Also, trying to take away rewards from others because you don’t have them is very unreasonable, and completely one sided. That’s far from a compromise, which implies both parties are getting part of what they want.
100% agree. I never asked for the promised rewards to be taken away, I just questioned the kind of reward, which – in my opinion – still should not be achievement points.
A simple request for those points not to contribute to leaderboards would be much a more agreeable and sufficient to solution the concerns of both side.
It might have been – if those points weren’t visible to other players ingame, too, just leading to another layer of competition. Therefore I advertised an even simpler solution: exchange the rewards.
To be fair, they said eotn would give you rewards in gw2. They didn’t say what kind of rewards, so anything is game, including achievement points :p
Yes, you might interpret it this way. But if I read it, the addition “for your Guild Wars 2 characters” sort of implies the reward to be something closer to your character rather than “only” an account based score, doesn’t it?
I also loved how those time limited events were somehow wrapped up into 64 hours. Apparently math is subject to opinion as well?
Not at all. I can make mistakes, too, and indeed the 2*16 is only 32 additional hours, and as I was too quick to post without reviewing the numbers this time somehow I seem to already have had this 32 hours in mind while multiplying it with the 2 again. Thank you for pointing this out.
Although since the erroneous resulting 64 was negligible already in comparison, the correct result of 32 can be regarded as negligible as well, agreed?
K, maybe I misunderstood. Since they didn’t say they would give ap for hom in gw2 then that means they shouldn’t?
If that is your argument, then we have to conclude they cannot make any changes to the game that was not mentioned before purchased.
Yes, and no.
Of course they can (and should) make changes to the game. They could (and in my opinion should) have given any additional reward through the HoM achievements without tampering with the score – at least not after the score was in place for months and a competitive ranking was established.
But again, I don’t understand why your are using the ap from WvW as an example if you feel they are not balanced.
I did not find any other GW2 long term achievements (anything about the time required to get the HoM). So I chose the first achievement I could roughly put into numbers. It was not until later along the discussion that I questioned the only frame of reference available for long term achievements within GW2 – not invalidating the numbers, but maybe amending the newly discovered issue to the previous one.
Curuglas, I see you have not posted on my link. Of course with good reason.
Don’t be hasty. I did respond, but sometimes it takes time.
Again, your assumptions are completely wrong.
You just don’t seem to understand, do you?
Yakslapper: 1 000 000 dolyaks
Try for an hour to kill on average 1 dolyak every 2 minutes , meaning 30 dolyaks in an hour. To get the Yakslapper you’d have to go on killing dolyaks for about 33 333 hours. No time being away, all active playing.
This equals to slightly over 11 years of active playing 8 hours per day – doing nothing but killing dolyaks
The time limited events could not be completed in a single event, you had to do several months of actual in game time in the event to complete the title, but you only had 2 days a year to do it.
This actually adds for only 2 days of 16 hours, resulting in 64 hours. Compared to the 33 333 hours this means an additional 0.2% of 56 AP – negligible.
Again, you are showing you are completely clueless when it comes to the titles in GW1.
Show me one player who actively played GW1 every single day for over 11 years (meaning he started playing in 2001/2002).
Then, if he achieved his HoM titles in this time, he actually did the same deed required for the Yakslapper – which is worth 56 AP. So if HoM is easier or faster, (i.e. can be accomplished by being away for even a short while, or can be accomplished by starting to play after 2002), then in comparison it could be worth less than those 56 AP, couldn’t it?
Have you even considered reading the wiki a little so you have some at least idea what you are talking about?
I did not check what is required for GW1 titles, no. But the fact that some people actually do have the titles sort of implies that they did not have to actively play for 11+ years…
Again, explain how you can complete a title that takes several months of “actual in game time, logged in to the game”, in 48 hours? If you can not explain this, then please stop posting as you are simply making a fool of yourself and wasting everyone’s time.
Indeed, you might explain this, since this is your claim and not one of mine.
My claim is that there is a long term achievement worth 56 AP in GW2 which takes about 33 333 hours of not just logged on time but active play without being away at all. Compared to this achievement HoM requires much less time. Thus HoM should also be worth less than the 56 AP.
But to be honest, I chose the first arbitrary long term (in this case WvW) achievement for comparison. The problem might just be with the Yakslapper (which I came to presume due to the math), or rather most WvW achievements – i.e. All We See, We Own:
Capture 100 000 keeps, which boils down to: walking up to a keep and capture it. Walking from keep to keep takes a few minutes, say 2-3 minutes, prying open outer and inner doors can be done in about another 2-3 minutes, killing the lord is another minute – all assuming you have siege weaponry and no one defends the keep. This makes at least 5-7 minutes per keep, which is rather optimistic on average long term. Assuming 6 minutes per keep lets you capture 10 keeps per hour (which would be a huge feat, btw). 100 000 keeps means 10 000 hours of active walking and capturing, without opposition, and with a trailing group of another server to retake the keeps in the same time you go capturing, so once the immunity buff is gone you can get in and do your capturing again. Those 10 000 hours means more then 3 years of 8 hours every day all year long running in circles capturing keep after keep. And, those 10 000 hours are worth 56 AP, too.
Sadly, there are no other long term achievements available for comparison in GW2 but the WvW ones – and most probably the flaw is there. I just pointed out that the long term achievements (of which GW1 had plenty I concluded) in GW2 are worth much less for much more actual work than the HoM – and if you actually do know what kind of work this was, then you might understand the issue.
On the other hand, points awarded for living story and such, are much too high in comparison to the long term achievements – so maybe Anet should rework the entire achievement point system – and get a competitive PvE system working which includes only GW2 content.
You’re making the false assumption that something is broken to begin with and needs fixing. There’s a difference between something being broken and something not making you happy.
I am making this assumption, yes. Whether it’s false or true is yet a matter of opinion, since there is still no official response from the devs on this topic.
If for sake of argument you’d follow along the assumption that indeed the HoM awarding achievement points does break the comparison of GW2 game completion, you too could come to the conclusion that this should be fixed.
Maybe not only this, as some other issues (most of them already mentioned in this tread, too) exist with achievement points and could be addressed, too.
If – for sake of argument – your assumption of achievement points not being broken by HoM is correct, yes, I wouldn’t be happy with it. But even if it is not “broken”, this doesn’t mean that this aspect cannot be improved – i.e. (among other changes) by exchanging the achievement points in HoM for some real rewards.
This guy know what he’s talking about.
Sure, he pointed out some other akitten ues. I already suggested solutions to some of those, btw (like daily/monthly hard caps, story instances of historical content, etc).
The WvW and PvP points, though part of GW2, could indeed be placed in separate categories from PvE points. Maybe they could simply make the points displayed to other players environment based. Like if you are in PvE areas only the PvE points are displayed, in PvP only the PvP points and in WvW only the WvW points. HoM points would only be shown in the HoM area. Then the leaderboards could be altered to display only PvE/WvW/PvP/HoM content (based on selected filter). That would take a little more effort I guess but could also be a solution to WvW, PvP and HoM points.
Though Curaglas or whatever, the biggest whiner in the thread, won’t even read it. And if he does, he will just call you greedy and not comprehend a word of it that you say.
Oh, I do read and comprehend. But I rarely comment on things I mostly agree with. And did he ask for anything “more” warranting a “greedy” label? I didn’t notice. But reading your post I might have to start assuming you having a twisted sense of comprehension.
I talked to the guy in game and let me tell you he really is this full of himself and really believes every word he’s typing in this thread should be taken seriously. He assured me he WILL quit the game if this isn’t “taken care of.”
If you do not believe your own words, why bother typing? Of course I stand behind what I write (spelling and grammar mistakes included ), both my opinions and simple facts. And of course I take others’ opinions equally serious, although opinions can be subject to change, if appropriate arguments are presented – and understood.
Well, it’s been over a week and he’s still here. Not sure when he’ll quit exactly but good riddance it’ll make this game a better place without him.
Well, I am a rather calm person, but your spiteful posts just confirm my decision having placed you on my ignore list.
Since I know that properly fixing those issues takes some time, I am not in a rush to leave the game just yet – but of course currently I am not inclined to buy gems until the issue is addressed – also a form of leaving, since it might leave a small mark where the responsible company might notice this one day: their balance sheet.
I’m not sure if you
The word you seem to lack is “persistent”.
that Anet said from the very beginning that they’d be rewarding GW1 players in GW2.
Yes, and some seem to fail to grasp that no one is denying this. No one here seems to be asking for HoM not to be rewarded – in fact it was already rewarded, even if some people might have expected more. By all means, ANet could send the 50/50 players a free precursor for all I care.
The only real issue is that they should not screw up the achievement points as a competitive value of “game completion”.
If by now you aren’t grasping that they aren’t going to revoke these achievements or points associated with HoM
Nothing is written in stone, and since this is an issue rather easily fixed, why shouldn’t they? It’s commonplace in developing software to make changes with unforeseen side effects, and fixing those issues is part of the development process – it may take a little time for the fix to be implemented, but I am still confident that they will address this problem.
You can’t have a discussion if you do not even know the most basic facts about the subject.
Indeed; maybe you should at least try to comprehend the facts?
Even if we took into account all the time since GW1 release (2004, correct?), then people had about 8 years to complete the 50/50 before switching their play time to GW2. Even though I sincerely doubt them to play GW1 for 8 years 8 hours every day, let’s assume they really did this, to place the achievement into perspective with GW2’s Yakslapper. Then you’d get the GW1’s 50/50 in roughly about half the time it takes for the Yakslapper – which raises the comparative value of HoM 50/50 to about half a Yakslapper (still worth 56 AP), meaning it should not exceed 28 AP.
And since the HoM was @20 AP prior to the last patch, this was clearly enough for those long term achievements.
BTW, can you explain with your magical math skills, how a player could find a way to work on achievements when the very event that you needed to get the achievement was gone until the next year?
My assumption to complete the long term achievements is based on a dedicated active daily play time of 8 hours every day of the year. This should result in being no time left to “miss” any time framed achievements.
Since the GW1 achievements are supposedly still all completable, they should be completable on at least one day of the year. Therefore it does not matter at all when any of those “achievements” can be completed.
I hope you understand the math used now, else you might want to ask your math teacher to explain these rather simple things – or maybe sue him to get your money back.
(edited by Curuglas.1847)
That was sarcasm ;-)
Shhh, don’t tell them, they wouldn’t have noticed…
Maybe ANet should start giving 100 AP fo every 1000 gems, bought with real money?
LOL, somehow I like the thought of that, if we want to mess up, why not mess up big? xD
And to be clear on this: Yes, I have bought gems, and, seriously, I would not want any points “awarded” for this.
There is only one good solution to all those threads. Remove the AP leaderboards. Remove it and never look back. Hell, make it impossible to see other players AP values.
LOL, that might solve the issue of AP being competitive in any way, however then they should still bring in another measurement to compare “game completeness”…