Guild Wars 2

For Mai Trin, no matter how much hp you have with valk or marauder is not going to work if you are not running condi clear. The majority of her damage comes from her bleed stacks.
Back in the day, we used to recommend thieves to use full berserkers when learning because it more it punishes your mistakes, the faster you learn (old school thieving)
But if you are going to fractals, I’ll actually recommend berserker with maybe a soldier coat or smthing if you are running ascended gear. Makes it cheaper if you are considering going full berserkers one day, and honestly, I don’t think you’ll feel a difference with Marauder’s or a zerk soldier mix.
Just my 2cents

Considering the fact that full on tanky amulets are removed, and we get a damage boost, we are probably more effective now.
If you are trying to bunker with thief, I’m sorry but you might be doing it wrong.

Sry, PC died few days ago and forgot about the raid. I’ll have to reinstall gw2 one day, after I get my pc running again (currently on phone). My bad.

That, and 10 hours ago was 2am my time, so I would’t make in either way. =/

-Snip- double post

yolo swaggins.2570:

Toughness won’t do much because there is nothing to supplement it like decent healing and defensive boons.

The toughness is just used to draw the aggro of the boss. If everyone is running full zerk and viper, the boss might randomly target members of the party. That is a sure fire way to fail stage 4 and beyond.
A thief tank will most probably rely on evades (probably pistol whip), and invigorating precision to self sustain when he does get hit.

As stated before, for DPS, D/D is much better compared to D/P. If you position yourself correctly, you will not need shadow shot for gap closing, as we have Steal.
The reason is the easy access to backstab. To backstab with D/D, simply press 5 followed by 1.
For D/D, it’s actually a DPS loss to use Heartseeker spam at 50%. With D/D, Heartseeker is only used <25%. Just goes to show how much DPS D/D outputs.

For sustainable D/D rotation, do bound> cloak and dagger> backstab (on the back) > one autoattack chain+ one double strike> repeat.

D/P’s strength is it’s easy access to stealth and chasebility with shadow shot, and an interrupt as well. All these makes DP a better PvP set, but not a better PvE set, especially for Dps.

So for the tank we can maybe get either a dire condi thief, or a Knight staff/SP thief running invigorating precision?

The main issue I see is the red orbs. We don’t have knockbacks to deal with them, maybe have people spam evades if a red orb is on top of the green circle?

Or are we skipping VG :P

The thing about thief is, once you get into a certain level of play, our effectiveness drops to near useless.
Sure, in very low MMR where you still find Zerk Staff Eles, Greatsword Warriors, Power Rangers etc, we can be really useful by bursting down glassy specs.
But once you get to higher levels of play, and you hit a brick wall. People actually use tanky stats, use CCs and knows how to dodge your attacks. You’ll find yourself unable to kill anything without +1ing non-bunker spec enemies.
You will also die very easily due to our low health pool, low defence, lack of damage mitigation buffs. Despite all the sacrifice thieves make in terms of survivability, our attacking powers are mediocre at best.

But if you do want to have fun in low MMR with thief, simple, +1 fights, Cap/Decap points in the map. This used to be relevant before the whole bunker meta, and still works if your enemies are bad enough.

Molch.2078:

The thing is: Can we trust this dpsmeter as a tool, then? May I ask what options you use?

I’m not too sure, It’s my first time using it as well. But it seems to work decently enough… Anet won’t include a DPS meter anytime soon, so I’ll take what I can get. =)

Reported, eco terrorist too OP, saturating the market with too many mats and crashing the prices of mats everywhere. A-net please nerf this build, it’s too mobile, thieves getting too much gold. Thieves are meant to be poor, that’s why they steal. Please give thief 50% to fail at materials farming. Remove Sb 5’s ability to scale up cliffs, and remove swiftness on dash pls. And please nerf quickness on that OP thief skill Haste, make it unusable outside combat. And please nerf so that gathering mats reveals thief for 2 mins, so thief cannot abuse stealth for mats gathering.

kthanxbye.

Molch.2078:

EazyPanda.6419:

Molch.2078:

That dps meter is strange. I got to 13.5k solo dps with cloak and dagger. Yay me, I guess?

Considering Cloak and Dagger> Backstab is burst damage, so it probably did do 13.5k damage in one second.
But to get 13.5k solo DPS with that, you’ll need to be able to spam CnD > backstab every single second. Unfortunately, reveal and initiative costs disallow us from doing so. =(

Nono, don’t worry, I am not that stupid. It was over roughly 2 minutes.

Then… Yay you I guess.

Molch.2078:

That dps meter is strange. I got to 13.5k solo dps with cloak and dagger. Yay me, I guess?

Considering Cloak and Dagger> Backstab is burst damage, so it probably did do 13.5k damage in one second.
But to get 13.5k solo DPS with that, you’ll need to be able to spam CnD > backstab every single second. Unfortunately, reveal and initiative costs disallow us from doing so. =(

Zlater.6789:

reikken.4961:

Zlater.6789:

20K!!! I’m going to see if I can get a full berserker build something close to that :/

You’ll only hit 20k with a full suite of buffs from other party members
and for some reason, no one ever seems to talk about dps potential in any other situation, so this topic has been of interest to me so far

but 4k solo dps is indeed pretty low

haha nobody ever mentions anything to do with this :/
So I guess its best to start a convo this way :P

Easy Panda I don’t know what you did to get 7k, it took me a while with that exact build, but I got an almost perfect rotation for a few mins, however the most it ever sat at was 6k, then it settled to around 5.6k

Here’s the rotation i use. You’ll have to change it up a bit for certain situations but it goes like this.

Use Steal and Fist Flury off cooldown whenever possible (don’t use Palm strike, just the 1st part of the skill). They are pretty much free burst damage.

The rotation is Bound dodge> Weakening Charge x2> one auto-attack chain until right before the end of punishing strikes (the staff spinning)> Bound… repeat.
Your bound multiplier will run out during your auto-attack, keep an eye on it. With Staff master and Signet of Agility, you will never run out of dodges for this rotation, so feel free to use bound to keep up that 10% dmg. Your Initiative should not run out either.

With this chain, you will never have dps downtime (unless you are dead, i guess).

Zlater.6789:

hmm I’d really like to see that build and give it a go, do you have a link to it by any chance?
I usually try to aim for 1mil damage before I make a verdict on something, the best I’ve gotten so far is 5.4k on a berzerker staff build.

@EasyPanda.5419
I’m getting 5.4k with this build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVl8MhGnYxTwwJw/EL0EmWAYCFBmrgbwR42DIBsnA-TJBFwAI3foaZAAXAgCPAAA

Now when you say 20k? do you mean a 20k vault, because I can get that to 13k now. And I guess most people wouldn’t be talking about DPS as in actual damage per second but just some skill they use a lot.

Here ya go, full DPS with next to 0 sustain. You need to rely on your healer, which is fine becasue if you are pure dps, you will always be near the boss = near the tank = near the healer. If not, just swap for Invigorating precision (all the sustain you need).
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn8lCNOhVmCGOBkmiFaCTLAMhiAzVwN4IcLPNc2TA-TpRBwALOCAAeAAROEAPuAAkLDcd/BA

And when when i say 20, i mean 20k per second over an extended periods of time, taking into account cooldowns and initiative regeneration. I’ve hit 30+k vaults in raids before, but weakening charge is the best DPS skill we have. 30k damage for 3 initiative is every good damage per initiative.

Zlater.6789:

EazyPanda.6419:

I’m slightly confused. Is this supposed to be for PvP or PvE?
I’d automatically assume PvP when it’s a D/P build, but since you brought up destroying breakbars…
And DPS is not in any way helpful in PvP. Enemies are not going to stand around letting you DPS them.
Thus I’m going to assume PvE. I can’t read. Whoops.

Here are my 2 cents if it’s for PvE.

-The 2 strongest weapons are staff and main hand dagger, and its not even a little difference.
In general, D/P is not a high DPS set. For DPS, D/D is a better choice compared to D/P, but staff has the highest DPS. CnD> Backstab > 1 auto chain + 1 ds > CnD… deals much higher dps compared to simply auto-attacking.

by the way, the weapon with the highest Auto-attack DPS is the sword, followed by the staff, then only the dagger. Which means the dagger has the lowest melee auto-attack DPS

-Using initiative for doing damage will usually result in a DPS loss because of activation/cast times. So only use a skill when it will result in a DPS boost, like heart seeker; or it meets a situational requirement. Like a shadow shot to get into melee range, or basilisk venom and headshot to ridiculously quickly destroy break bars.
considering all skills are either used for boosting damage or used in different situations…. that is kind of a redundant observation. =P

-The elite specialization will only be superior to trickery while you are actually weilding a staff, not at any other point. As such bounding dodger only situationly boosts DPS, it should not be used actively but it should be ‘set and forget,’ in other words, rotating it does not boost damage.
*Whoever told you that obviously did not play DPS daredevil much. Bound’s 10% damage increase and the damage from bound itself is a much larger damage increas then from Lead attacks alone. All you need is good initiative management.

-Stolen items are mostly useless, some are good to use, but most are only if that exact situation calls for it, which is almost never, and often actually never.
whoever told you that did not play thief in PvP. The main reason why people use Improvisation in PvP is for the extra stolen skills.
True, many stolen skills in PvE are lackluster, but some are pretty useful. You many get free stealth, knockbacks, or dazes.

In terms of traits, you should always have crit strikes and deadly arts.
Sundering Strikes > Practiced Tolerance (unless you already have too much vulnerability from elsewhere)
generally practiced tolerance is the way to go. in a solo situation, you won’t stack THAT much vuln, and in a party, vuln is almost always at 25 stacks
Invigorating Precision > No Quarter (you don’t do damage while you are dead)
Hence the joy of playing thief, never getting hit
Executioner > Improvisation or Potent Poison
improv is mostly only used in PvP, and poison is only used in venomsahre builds
Thrill of the Crime >/= Haste (you should be spamming steal, even out of combat)
if only for the swiftness, i guess. But daredevil’s dash dodge will give even more swiftness in the open world

On both builds I use haste because it provides the best DPS boost of all of the utility skills, its also a stun break and condition cleansing ability.
Haste is not a very useful skill especially in a raid group. In a raid, you will have chronomancers giving out quickness, and in general fractals and dungeons it lacks utility. If you need DPS, palm strike may be a good filler skill. In PvE, you won’t need to worry about conditions or stuns very much.

The best runes to use are Scholar or Thief runes, unless you have another idea, I tried all of the free runes. Any rune without a +% is mostly inferior.
yes for scholar, nay for thief rune. Thief runes lack power or ferocity, which causes less damage. Strength runes are also a decent choice, but Scholar (<90% hp) or Ruby Orbs (overall) are the highest DPS upgrades.
Sigil of Strength and Sigil of Air provide the best DPS, Sigil of Force and Sigil of Bloodlust coming in as good replacements for Sigil of Strength though. Yes I know you are about to say it, for burst Force is better, however this is built with endgame PvE in mind.
Sigil of strength is largely redundant in group PvE because might flows like water in a group situation. One PS warrior is going to supply the whole party with 25 stacks of might in the first place. Thus, sigil force is better then sigil of might.

If you are worrying about DPS, then I’ll assume you are in a raid group.

Basilisk venom pales in comparison in to all other elites in PvE, unless you run venomshare builds. Impact strike has a daze and a launch, and deals damage on top of that.

Traits:
For critical strikes, if you are going for max dps, take flawless strikes, practices tolerance and No Quarter instead.

For Daredevil with a staff, take staff master. It gives you a 10% damage boost s well as near unlimited dodges.

4k dps is. unfortunately, fairly low, even in a solo situation. In a party situation, a thief is expected to output 20k+ dps even without quickness. I’ll use that program you used to try out my DPS to give you some idea on what kind of numbers you are suppose to hit. =)

Hope you found something useful from this post. Keep it up! There’s so little of us thieves nowadays. =(

That would be awesome

I found No Quater did help with DPS, but if I’m running scholar runes then 250 ferocity doesn’t really come in too handy, it does pop up by a couple hundred when I run them though.
No Quater gives ectra ferocity, which = more damage. But if your group lacks a decent healer, you might want to run Invigorating prec instead.

20K!!! I’m going to see if I can get a full berserker build something close to that :/
in Raids, Berzerker gear is standard for power builds .)

I would prefer Thieves guild for just raw damage, but basilisk venom is one of the best ways to take care of a break bar, using that on headshot is often enough to take it from full to nil, that makes a huge difference! but you’ll be losing out on DPS, and Impact Strike and Palm strike gives more CC then a single basilisk venom (it’s a sifferent story in a venomshare build tho)

If you use staff master, what do you do for the condi cleanse, or do you just slot one when you need it?
generally in raids, you don’t need condi clense. Signet of Agility’s single condi clense is enough, as you need none =), and if you have a druid in your party, conditions simply won;t work on the whole party =)

Molch.2078:

I used the zerk amulet, not the mauradeur amulet. I read pve, so I assumed zerk.

But yes, this was over 1m40s, no bloodlust ofc.

EDIT: For numbers, we’re talking about the pvp golem. You won’t get 20k dps on that thing. But in a good group 20k is easily possible. Ele does 30k, tho…

20k dps is the minimum you can get, without quickness it’s possible to get 25k+ Dps. With quickness, 30k+ is theoretically achievable. And we don’t need to count on all our meteors hitting the boss.

here’s a quick DPS run i did on my thief. Take into account that my DPS is around the 6.8k range before the clowns showed up =P.
FOr D/D I’m sitting around the 5k range, with bound>CnD> AA x1.5 chain.

This is without any buffs, no might, vuln are stacked purely by my staff auto-attack.
(I’ve taken more screenshots, before i realized gw2 screenshots won’t show the DPS meter, then i got lazy. Orz)
And take into account this is with 600ms ping, stutterey gameplay because I’m using wifi with a cheap router, and is far away from my router. (I normally play in LAN, but i’m too lazy to move my laptop)

I’m slightly confused. Is this supposed to be for PvP or PvE?
I’d automatically assume PvP when it’s a D/P build, but since you brought up destroying breakbars…
And DPS is not in any way helpful in PvP. Enemies are not going to stand around letting you DPS them.
Thus I’m going to assume PvE. I can’t read. Whoops.

Here are my 2 cents if it’s for PvE.

-The 2 strongest weapons are staff and main hand dagger, and its not even a little difference.
In general, D/P is not a high DPS set. For DPS, D/D is a better choice compared to D/P, but staff has the highest DPS. CnD> Backstab > 1 auto chain + 1 ds > CnD… deals much higher dps compared to simply auto-attacking.

by the way, the weapon with the highest Auto-attack DPS is the sword, followed by the staff, then only the dagger. Which means the dagger has the lowest melee auto-attack DPS

-Using initiative for doing damage will usually result in a DPS loss because of activation/cast times. So only use a skill when it will result in a DPS boost, like heart seeker; or it meets a situational requirement. Like a shadow shot to get into melee range, or basilisk venom and headshot to ridiculously quickly destroy break bars.
considering all skills are either used for boosting damage or used in different situations…. that is kind of a redundant observation. =P

-The elite specialization will only be superior to trickery while you are actually weilding a staff, not at any other point. As such bounding dodger only situationly boosts DPS, it should not be used actively but it should be ‘set and forget,’ in other words, rotating it does not boost damage.
*Whoever told you that obviously did not play DPS daredevil much. Bound’s 10% damage increase and the damage from bound itself is a much larger damage increas then from Lead attacks alone. All you need is good initiative management.

-Stolen items are mostly useless, some are good to use, but most are only if that exact situation calls for it, which is almost never, and often actually never.
whoever told you that did not play thief in PvP. The main reason why people use Improvisation in PvP is for the extra stolen skills.
True, many stolen skills in PvE are lackluster, but some are pretty useful. You many get free stealth, knockbacks, or dazes.

In terms of traits, you should always have crit strikes and deadly arts.
Sundering Strikes > Practiced Tolerance (unless you already have too much vulnerability from elsewhere)
generally practiced tolerance is the way to go. in a solo situation, you won’t stack THAT much vuln, and in a party, vuln is almost always at 25 stacks
Invigorating Precision > No Quarter (you don’t do damage while you are dead)
Hence the joy of playing thief, never getting hit
Executioner > Improvisation or Potent Poison
improv is mostly only used in PvP, and poison is only used in venomsahre builds
Thrill of the Crime >/= Haste (you should be spamming steal, even out of combat)
if only for the swiftness, i guess. But daredevil’s dash dodge will give even more swiftness in the open world

On both builds I use haste because it provides the best DPS boost of all of the utility skills, its also a stun break and condition cleansing ability.
Haste is not a very useful skill especially in a raid group. In a raid, you will have chronomancers giving out quickness, and in general fractals and dungeons it lacks utility. If you need DPS, palm strike may be a good filler skill. In PvE, you won’t need to worry about conditions or stuns very much.

The best runes to use are Scholar or Thief runes, unless you have another idea, I tried all of the free runes. Any rune without a +% is mostly inferior.
yes for scholar, nay for thief rune. Thief runes lack power or ferocity, which causes less damage. Strength runes are also a decent choice, but Scholar (<90% hp) or Ruby Orbs (overall) are the highest DPS upgrades.
Sigil of Strength and Sigil of Air provide the best DPS, Sigil of Force and Sigil of Bloodlust coming in as good replacements for Sigil of Strength though. Yes I know you are about to say it, for burst Force is better, however this is built with endgame PvE in mind.
Sigil of strength is largely redundant in group PvE because might flows like water in a group situation. One PS warrior is going to supply the whole party with 25 stacks of might in the first place. Thus, sigil force is better then sigil of might.

If you are worrying about DPS, then I’ll assume you are in a raid group.

Basilisk venom pales in comparison in to all other elites in PvE, unless you run venomshare builds. Impact strike has a daze and a launch, and deals damage on top of that.

Traits:
For critical strikes, if you are going for max dps, take flawless strikes, practices tolerance and No Quarter instead.

For Daredevil with a staff, take staff master. It gives you a 10% damage boost s well as near unlimited dodges.

4k dps is. unfortunately, fairly low, even in a solo situation. In a party situation, a thief is expected to output 20k+ dps even without quickness. I’ll use that program you used to try out my DPS to give you some idea on what kind of numbers you are suppose to hit. =)

Hope you found something useful from this post. Keep it up! There’s so little of us thieves nowadays. =(

Evilek.5690:

DeceiverX.8361:

Conditions got buffed massively due to people whining about their dire condi tank builds not being able to out-DPS berserker-geared players in speed-run dungeons with very easy and very stale encounters.

The thief has limited cleansing available and a low health pool, making it extremely weak to conditions innately.

It’s just a bad state to be in. I usually just don’t bother fighting people who condition-oriented weapons because it’s pretty much a surefire loss unless investing deeply into camping stealth with Shadow’s Embrace and Rejuv.

What,What ?!! limited cleasing ? Hide in Shadows 3 , Signet of Agility 1, Infiltrator’s Return 1. Shadowstep 2. 3x codition cleanse with CD andone without CD.

Now traits: DD Escapist’s Absolution – cleanse condition every evade,

Traits 2:Tric Trickster = cleanse condition on all tricks skills – Withdraw,Caltrops,Haste,Roll for Initiative,Scorpion Wire,Dagger Storm.

Traits 3: SA Shadow’s Embrace =clenase condition every stealth – Blinding Powder,Shadow Refuge,Shadow Pursuit,Cloak and Dagger etc.

Traits 3: Acro Pain Response,Guarded Initiation,Don’t Stop (imune on immobil,chill/criple -50% duration)

Yeah Thief has limited conditions cleansing lol.

D/P,P/D,S/D Thief is unkillable with condition build

This made me laugh. Thank you for that.

I’m interested in joining for the NA server. =)
I can be both Viper venomshare support (full asc) or zerk (asc weapons/trinkets, exotic armor).

However, I’m on the SEA timing, so I might not make it if the raid happens in the middle of the night. =)

So, how long have you been gone from the game?

MindWipe.3028:

SO back in the day i was a thief gvg player. With this new meta thieves are near useless in gvg and pretty much everything else. Most good gvg guilds require that you have ascended, but i only had it on my thief and no guild has any use for engi or druid. I think it is complete garbage for anet to sit here and tell me that i would have to make a whole new set of ascended just the play the game the way i like it. I think you should A, let the players you backhanded change their ascended to a different type. or B, make the classes that use medium armor have some use in gvgs. THE END

Firstly, no guild requires engie or druid? My raid leader got some of the necros and eles to reroll to scrapper for the mobile water field, lightning field, and Gyros.
And my guild has two nomad druids that work wonders in outnumbered fights (we are pretty much always outnumbered though).

And Ascended armor is just a 2-3% stat increase, just grab an ascended weapon and trinkets and you’re good to go.

And yes, while revenants and hammer 2 is OP, mesmer/thief gank combo is stronger then ever, and nothing is better at causing havoc in the enemy backline like a thief+mesmer.
With good coordination, a thief+mesmer combo can kill an enemy in 2-3 seconds
(especially an ele backline).
The combination of Quickness, synchronized burst, and Impact strike does not even allow eles to mist form away when they are downed.
Sure it’s harder than playing Rev and pressing 2 all day, but it’s not completely useless in any way.

3 crafters (they never leave LA).
One JP expert (literally the only time I use mesmer)
One Charged Quartz slave
3 other classes never really does anything, except occasionally seeing action in WvW.

And my main which does everything.

reikken.4961:

I see. I wasn’t aware you could do that. In PvE, any time I try to shadowstep up to a place I can’t walk to (WALK, not even jump), it says no valid path

and outside of Portal Exeunt, there’s no way anything else beats thief in moving from one place to another. Thief can blink 3-5 times in a row, and dash almost indefinitely.

The way shadowsteps/blinks work is by using a grid which enables NPCs to walk on the surface.
If an NPC can walk from one point to another, you can shadowstep to it.

Check out WoodenPotato’s video on it on youtube. =)

reikken.4961:

Vornollo.5182:

Really, the only thing we still do best, Is vertical mobility.

What do you mean by vertical and horizontal mobility?

Vertical Mobility = Shadowstepping from the ground to the roof of Khylo.

Horizontal Mobility = Walking from Point A to point B on a flat surface

Just make all 9 classes, and play each of them depending on what you need at them moment.

If you need versatility, Elementalists are always a great option. They can be anything, just not all at the same time.

They can be High DPS
or extremely durable.
are as complex as you’d want it (From Staff ele to D/D ele)
as versatile as Engies
Can be spec’ed for Ranged DPS.

After testing this, I’ve found that it only works when you have action cam disabled, and only if you targeted the vault near enough to your target.

But the thing about playing staff is that you have to bait dodges/ blocks to land vaults. It balances out the spammability and high damage of Vault.

You can also precast Weakening Charge instead of Vault for largely the same result, so i don’t think it’s that big of a deal (but would welcome a fix anyway).

6 hp left. I’m impressed.

Capa.7684:

Mainhand Sword 1000 damage
around 3500 Strength
10% Scholar
5% Mainhand Sigil
10% Sword trait
7% Fury
7% Vuln at enemy
2,235 modifier with Quickness
around 240 critdamage with 100% critchance

Vale Guardian 1900 Armor

means around 14,xk dps * 1,25 = 18k dps
When you use Bufffood and 20% damage under 50% you reach over 20k. Somebody mentioned 22k dps maximum with Autoattacks are possible.

Yes you have maybe more but you used all Buffs from others and gives them nothing in return. 5 or 10% more damage than another class is not good enough.

Ah, but with thief, this is 23-25k dps WITHOUT Quickness. =) Under the effect of quickness, our DPS may potentially hit 30+k dps, no? =)

And once you have a PS Warrior, Druid, Herald and Chronomancer in a party, there’s hardly any buffs that will greatly benefit the DPS of a party. Hence thief is the optimal 5th slot for the party. We can utilize all the buff for maximum effect (in terms of DPS).

Other classes may give more survivability to the whole party, that much is uncontested, But in terms of maximum DPS, thief is the way to go.

Capa.7684:

The problem are the cooldowns. In a boss fight over a few minutes the dps gain from Abilities is not that big.

Revenant 1,49 Strength modifier * 1,5 modifier from Quickness are around 2,235 Strength modifier. Thats nearly the modifer from Vault Attack Staff 5 every second.

I will not say that the damage is really bad but as a Thief you must play with your skills like a piono when a Revnenant use autoattacks and has one arm free. Every second you have full initiatve is a huge damage loss the same when you endurance is full you must use you abilities for damage and cant win against a semi afk one.

Ah, but the thing is you don’t even use Vault for pure DPS. You use Weakening Charge instead, and if played correctly, you will never have full endurace or full initiative (but you never run out of it either).
Ever tried the Bound> x2 Weakening charge > AA >Bound combo?
And Thief benefit from quickness as well, and if you pull of your rotations correctly, you will not run out of initiative even with quickness.

I agree, we need to press more buttons then a Rev, but that’s not the point.

In fact, I’ll post a post I’ve made previously.

EazyPanda.6419:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn8lCFOhNOBWmCkmiFaCbLPNc2TzVwN4IULAMhiAA-TBSBABP8AAoU9HzUCe1+jyv8PEA4pLQjjAAAXAASBMwyI-e
This is the build I’m using. I might switch the heal to SoM, or swap No Quarter for Invigoration Precision for more heals.

Considering all this takes place in an optimal situation,
25 stack of might,
25 stacks of vulnerability,
Warrior Banners and Empower Allies,
+10% damage food,
Druid Frost Spirit +10% and Glyph and Grace of the Land,
Revenant’s Assassin’s Presence,

all our modifiers working :
bound dodge +10%, (after dodging)
Scholar bonus +10% (us at +90% hp),
Flawless strikes +7%, (us at +90% hp),
Ferocious Strkes +10% (enemy above 50%) or Executioner +20% (enemy below 50%),
Exposed weakness +10%, (enemy with a condition, which is 100% of the time)
Havoc Mastery +7%, (in melee, duh)
Staff master +10%, (in staff, duh)
occasionally popping Assassin’s Signet +15% when Mesmers are calling out Alacraty.
(yes, it’s a lot of modifiers)

The following situation is in a non-burst situation in Vale Guardian (no coordination with druids popping their glyphs)
Note, I’m using Exotic armor (swapped my ascended to Vipers), but with Asc trinkets and Weapon, so the numbers I’ve put forward should be 2-3% less then it would be in ascended gear (with makes little difference tbh).

I was able to deal around 10+k per hit of Weakening charge (without Executioner), which deals x3 hits.
That is around roughly 30k per Weakening Charge, or 10k damage per initiative.
A Weakening Charge cast time is 1/2 a second.
Our bound dodge deals roughly 18k damage per dodge. The dodge is 3/4 seconds long.
Our Auto-attack chain deals roughly 36k damage per chain, and takes around 2.5 seconds to complete the chain.

My damage rotation for the Vale guardian is Bound > Weakening Charge x3 > Auto-attack chain x1.5 (skip halfway) > Bound ~repeat. (This is NOT the optimum damage rotation, but the optimum dmg rotation gets me killed in Vale. This rotation is tailored for VG alone)

The whole rotation takes around 3/4s + (3 × 1/2s) +(1.5 × 2.5s) = 6 seconds, so lets say 7 seconds to pull off, with the possibility of non-optimal rotations.
By the end of 7 seconds, we would have regenerated 7 initiative, hence allowing us to pull off the rotation again without much loss of initiative, and unless you are landing perfect dps rotations without any wasted time, your initiative will last you for a more then 4-5 rotations. If you DO run out of initiative, Fist Flury is there for the burst damage.
We will have plentiful Dodges, as our staff skills refills endurance, and we can always steal when we really need more dodges, as well as having SoA.

Total damage dealt over 6 seconds is around 18k+ (3 × 30k) + (1.5 × 36k) = 162k

Total DPS = (162k / 7s) = 23k DPS

Note, this is just from numbers on the top of my head, during the FIRST phase of Vale (the one I did the most, in full disclosure), which means no Executioner Buff (+20% dmg).
And these numbers might be slightly higher then usual, as i do not have 100% +10% dmg modifier from Bound. (But then this is calculation with a sub-optimal rotation)
And note that these numbers are not in a coordinated burst rotation, but rather in a stable phase, and we can keep up this DPS for a very long time, long enough to last through boss phases.

Thieves are able to 1v1 if you are skilled enough. However, the way we do it is in a hit and run fashion, dragging out the match, resetting in stealth, which is useless in PvP, but its also why WvW thief roamers are still a common sight.

With the bunker heavy meta, our effectiveness of bursting down opponents have been drastically reduced. In fact due to power creep, other classes can burst as hard as thieves, yet is not as squishy as thieves.

Thief’s strength is mobility, but in this meta, where there is almost always a bunker in the enemy home, our decap role is made to be pretty much redundant.

So our current role is to fight in mid like everyone else, or be the fastest rotator to help out home. We still have decent burst damage, and while it is possible to be effective with thief even in this meta, it’s just not ‘meta’. With reveals being thrown around everywhere, some thieves like me opted to use stealth-less builds.

So, while it’s possible to play thief in pvp, it’s just… not as fun as before.
You won’t be able to carry your team. People blame you if you lose, you rely on your team to perform well. Regardless of how good you are, if your team is not competent, you are going to lose. You won’t be a game-changer (unless the other team is made up of warriors and thieves.)

-Whoops. -Double post-

The two best ones I can recall fro the top of my head is, while are not traits, but skills instead:

Signet of Shadow vs Signet of Air (Ele)
-both gives +25% movement speed
-both blinds enemies for 5 seconds around your target for 5 seconds
-Signet of Air deals damage
-Signet of Air has a 25s cd, Sigent of Shadows have a 30s cd.
-Signet of Air is a STUN-BREAKER. Signet of shadow is not.

Scropion Wire vs Magnet (engie)
-Both is a 1200 range pull
-Scorpion wire deals damage
-Scopion Wire bugs out every time it’s used. It either simply knock your foe down without pulling, pull you to your foe instead, or a mix of these effects.
-Magnet is a part of a tool kit, which gives 5 extra skills in a single utility slot.

And also traps. Our traps are laughable compared to Ranger traps, or DH traps.

DeceiverX.8361:

-snip-

I agree, classes are generally balanced around the strongest weapon-set. So in the process of fixing D/D, if we accidentally ‘break’ other sets, we are most likely going to be gutted, again.

Perhaps we should focus on the strengths of D/D to make it viable, instead of trying simply to make it comparable to D/P.
Currently, D/D is mostly used as a condition set. Maybe it’s possible to increase the effectiveness of D/D as a condition damage set, heck even as a hybrid set.(Viper/Sinister/Celestial thief maybe?). Current D/D is considered a cheese build, so why not make it a viable build?

D/D currently has 2 skill which deal damaging conditions, one from our auto-attack, one from death blossom. Perhaps increasing the power damage of DB will make hybrid builds more viable.

Revert the changes to dancing daggers that made it next to useless. Perhaps make it deal torment as well. This will make hybrid D/D even more viable.

Increase the effectiveness of Dagger Training. A 33% chance to deal 2 seconds of poison is simply too weak to be even considered a trait. Perhaps make it a ‘deal poison/bleeds on crit’ when using daggers, with maybe an internal cooldown of 1-2 seconds. Either that or increase the duration of poison from 2 seconds to at least 10 seconds. And bring back the +5% damage when using daggers. =(

Make Cloak and Dagger an interrupt, like a 0.25 second daze. It’s hard enough to land CnDs, requiring perfect timing and positioning, with a very high initiative cost, so make it slightly more rewarding. It would also make Impacting Disruption a viable trait for D/Ds. It’s also one reason why D/P is better then D/D (Headshot is so good).
and make it deal 10 stack of burn

An extra bleed-on-crit trait would be nice, which may make Rampager Thief viable. Or maybe buff potent poison by giving us a free Spider Venom when our/the enemy’s HP gets below certain threshold, (with maybe a 45-60 sec internal cd). This will let us deal even more conditions.

Our issue with condition damage is our lack of access to burns, so to balance it out, why not give us more ways to dish out conditions?

While i do agree these changes may sound slightly OP on paper, but due to us using initiative, I doubt it will be anywhere close to overpowered. It just gives us more options when playing D/D. And with most of the buffs tied to off-hand dagger, it will buff P/D as well (which is to be discussed in another time).

With the huge amount of poisons we deal, we may start to counter healing bunker builds like druids or tempests (well, not DS tempest, i guess =/).

While we are at it, please un-nerf choking gas on our SB4. This change made hardly any sense.

… I just derailed the thread didn’t I? =/

Capa.7684:

But Party Buffs mean Chronomancer Quickness nearly 100% Uptime. A 50% damage Boost.

Revenant Sword Autoattack Chain has a Strength Modifier from 1,49 per Second in the middle.
Thief Staff Modifier is 1,18 Strength per second in the middle.

That means with Revenant deals around 25% more Damage with Autoattacks and has Herald he gives the Team and Chronomancer 50% Boon Duration (worth 750 points in stats for every member) for Quickness and Sacrifices Nothing.

The problem is the Thief damage is not good enough for a character who cant support the other 4 people or the damage is okay but he lacks support.

And the Revnant Devastation Traitline gives you:

Vulnerability proc chance
10% damage with Sword
7% damage when enemy has vulnerability
150 Ferocity for the whole Team
20% damage when enemy is under 50%

Invocation
7% damage when under Fury
Fury gives +100% Bonus means 20% critchance Bonus

Herald
2%damage per Boon

Sorry to say, but Thief is not the only whone with damage amplifier.

I’m not sure where you get those numbers from (Weapon damage? I really don’t know, would really love to know), because unlike Revs, thieves do not simply auto-attack. You have to take into account skill damage from thieves, including utility skills such as Fist Flury&gt;Palm strike.

In a party situation, thieves benefit as much from quickness as Revs do. The only thing we are not greatly affected by is alacrity (which don’t affect revenants much either).

I would have to agree that thief is not the only one with damage amplifiers, but compared to rev, I’d say we have more, even when the rev has all the boons in the game (which is highly unlikely) =) :

bound dodge +10%, (after dodging)
Flawless strikes +7%, (us at +90% hp),
Ferocious Strkes +10% (enemy above 50%) or Executioner +20% (enemy below 50%),
Exposed weakness +10%, (enemy with a condition, which is 100% of the time)
Havoc Mastery +7%, (in melee)
Staff master +10%, (in staff)
Assassin’s Signet (+180 power)
Practiced tolerance (10% of precison &gt; ferocity)
No Quarter (+250 ferocity)

I agree, the major problem with thief is the lack of party buffs, as thieves are meant to be a ’control’ type profession (from the gw2 soft trinity). But if you already have all the party buff you need, Thief is a very solid DPS option.

Why not just expand the gemstore’s “mounts” that doesn’t do anything? Broomstick, magic carpet, drill etc….

Petoox.6570:

Urejt.5648:

its good pve, best dps, but pvp its trash tier

Thief sucks in pve too, utility is worse than what other classes have, dps is not best. Condi Engi, Condi Berserker, Tempest and Herald have better dps than thief.

Not really. We have the most damage modifiers from traits. Zerk Staff thief can hit 20-25k+ DPS consistently.
You just need a PS Warrior, a Herald, a Druid, and maybe a Chronomancer in your party (alacrity don’t really affect us that much to be honest).
If we have access to all the party damage buffs in game, we can deal arguably the highest DPS of any class.

Once entered a ranked match with another thief. Asked to reroll class.
Out of politeness (because i was duo queuing, and didn’t want to lose), I swapped to a signet necro. Which I have played a grand total of 3 matches with.

Obviously, i have no idea what i was doing aside from spamming all staff skills, and removing conditions. Ended up being useless, and died in mid at least 8-9 times.

Final score, we lost, I was the worst scorer. Thief was third best. (scores don’t matter… if you are a bunker). I felt bad.

Other two pugs blamed the thief. Actually they have been blaming thief since the start.
I felt worse. =(

After suppressing my urge to state all the reasons why D/P is better in every way for PvP/WvW, I don’t see why D/D can’t work if you are great with positioning (and because of Dash), and if you are not fighting against a D/P thief. =)

I’d recommend Impact Strike over Basilisk Venom though. Impact strike can be used as instant interupt, not just a finishing skill. Not to mention it will benefit from Brawler’s Tenacity.

I’ll also take Improv over executioner, but then that’s personal choice.

I can see this build being effective at bursting down people in WvW who are running zerg builds, walking on their way to join a commander, or under-leveled poeple in EotM. However, you might encounter probelms with any other class who is specced for 1v1s.

To be honest, if you are running full Zerk, you are going to get one-shotted often.
I would not recommend this for PvP. You will die within 10 seconds. Having 11k hp in a bunker/condi/AOE meta is not a great idea.

You will die in one burst from a fellow staff or D/P thief. Heck you’ll die from a single Vault.
You will die in 1/2 a shot from ‘kill-shot’ eles.
You will die from a single DH True Shot.
You will die from a Rev’s Hammer 2, which he can use every 2 seconds
You will melt from any condi builds.

Despite running a full evade build with a staff, I’ll still get hit eventually. Evades are simply not enough. =/

DeceiverX.8361:

D/D is dead? It died in June?

Well to be fair, and slightly off topic from your current argument discussion, D/D did die (or at least got gutted) in June for PvE. =)

To be honest, both of you raised valid points. The problem (from what i can tell) with your discussion is that you guys are not on the same page.

Hidden Assassin does give D/P thieves much more burst damage, as they can stack stealth prior to (and during) engaging an enemy, unlike D/D where you can’t reliably stack stealth (outside of taking smoke screen or using SR)

D/D only really benefited from HA in prolonged fights, which is more often than not in PvE.
You get 2 stacks of might for every CnD, which really is not much since fights rarely lasts longer then 4-5 CnD>Backstabs.
You might have to forgive Jana for failing to see the ‘true potential’ of HA as he might be looking at the HA trait through the eyes of a D/D user, not D/P user. =)

Not to mention when he stated that taking SA sacrifices a lot of utility, try to see it from his perspective. D/D has much harder access to stealth compered to D/P, so a D/D thief may not benefit as much from SA as a D/P thief would.

Yes, D/P is pretty much the better weapon set for PvP/WvW compared to D/D simply due to having much more utility and more reliable (but arguably expensive) access to stealth.

However, you can’t fault someone for liking certain weapon set. =) I for one am a stuborn staff user despite knowing that objectively, D/P brings more utility to the table for our current role.

Anyway, there is no real point in arguing over split milk. =P HA is gone, the old trait system is gone, lots of amazing traits have been replaced by arguably equal/decent ones.(ignore Acrobatics ofc)

I personally don’t really mind losing Hidden Assassin. What really made me sad was the removal of Infusion of Shadow. =(

Offhand sword Elite spec. Maybe focusing on more shadow steps for the traitline.

I like.

By the way, that is one old video. Much nostalgia. Thanks for that. I should reinstall my Fruit Ninja app.

Obviously thief. Because thief…
We are even told to avoid 1v1s because of how powerful we are to keep the game balanced.

On a serious note, it depends. Is it a 1v1 on a node in conquest, or is it a 1v1 in lets say a guild arena? Because if it’s on a node, I’ll argue that any decent bunker will never die in a 1v1 scenario, and which means they are the best 1v1 class. So the question becomes, what class is the best bunker?

In an arena setting, I might have to give the cake to tanky condi druids, maybe something like settler (for pvp)/dire druids. the amount of sustain they have while you run out of condi clense is just…..
Although it would be almost useless on a DS ele.

#humanfemalemasterace #nottakingintoaccountasuramasterrace

Human female models can be the smallest characters in the game, not counting asuras. It’s great for sneaking around, surviving in large WvW fights, and so forth.

It also depends on your preferences in women body types. =)

Well, it has superior and easier to access burst damage compared to D/P, has 2 evade skills, one of which is an AOE which hits as hard as a backstab, a long ranged blind, and a pretty high damage auto-attack. And it had a knockdown if you have access to stealth.

Compared to D/P, you get higher overall damage, some AOE damage, more evade frames, more dodges (staff master trait), by sacrificing stealth and Shadow Shot.

Unlike D/P, which is mostly a hit-and run weapon set (unless with shadow shot abuse), staff forces you to stick to the fight, and provides some means for you to survive in the chaotic, swirling mass of AOE damage that is mid.

While disengaging with staff is not as easy as with D/P, with good timing, our trusty shortbow can help us disengage from anything (until you get a true shot to your back i guess).

As for which is better, I found that the greatest strength of the staff is that it is not affected by reveal, and is best used when there are classes with reveals on the table.

It is however, to some extent countered by D/P thieves. Fighting a good D/P thief with the staff is hard, harder then fighting dragon-hunters, heralds etc.

Tldr: staff boosts your effectiveness against all classes aside from D/P thieves.

Being an asura in a WvW zerg fight makes you near untargetable though. (trust me, I was part of a gank squad)
I have a guildmate who uses a human ele considering to make an asuran ele.

And you have a pretty strong racial skill which is a ranged daze, damage, which makes killshot ele possible

Tigaseye.2047:

I, honestly, don’t know why anyone would even consider playing a game like that.

No game is worth over, about, $30 per month total, anyway.

Even that would have to be for a more-or-less perfect game.

…and if you have to pay for everything, so it just becomes a case of who paid the most wins, why even bother?

Just to prove you have more spare cash, or something?

Games like that don’t deserve anyone’s custom, at all.

I personally came from those games. You can imagine how mind-blowing it was to come from those games into Gw2.In Asia, most if not all MMORPGs are pay-to-win.

We started playing them from a young age, as it is free to play. (One reason why Dota 2 and LoL is so popular, they are free to play).
So when the players get older, and have their own salaries, they are willing to spend money on these games, because they are the games that they have been playing for years.

Games in Asia (at least, in my country) are expensive (exchange rates). Most Asian parents are strict (stereotypical, but it’s true), so very rarely will you see Asian parents actually willing to pay for their kids to play games.
___________________________________________________________________

To be fair, they are really fun games, but the Pay-to-win aspect ruins the game for me.
Maple story is still a joy to play, although I personally play private servers, which is still MS, without the P2W aspect, and takes out the grind, and toxicity. (It became a really fun single player game)

and Dragon Nest still have one of the best combat systems in any MMO I’ve ever played, which includes WoW (up to lvl 20 =P), ESO, TERA, etc… While it is not as complex as Gw2, it just… feels a lot better.

PvP in Dragon Nest is extremely fun, especially in a specialized PvP mode they have with does not take gear into account. The skill-cap is very high, as it’s one of the most fast paced combat systems I’ve ever played, almost as fast as playing 3rd person shooters.
(Check out DN PvP videos to know what i mean =D)
…
…
Well, at least until they introduced extremely Overpowered classes into the game, introduced Overpowered skills after every level cap, which screwed up the balance of the game and made PvP unplayable, as the OP classes will dominate any of the older classes. =_="

I have a guildmate who hit freaking 20 runs. I don’t even….

I’ve only hit 12 runs so far =/.

Snarftastic.6709:

EazyPanda.6419:

From what i can see, as you have probably realized yourself, is that the main reason you are feeling this way is because GW2 is best played with friends.

The only real reason I’m still playing (as a thief main), is because of my guildmates. Without them, I’ll probably had moved on into another game by now.

Before i joined my guild, i had the same problem. I was not actually actively playing gw2, playing on and off, logging in just for daily rewards and all.
It all changes when you get (as in really get into) a guild.

I recommend finding an active guild and get involved in it. =)

Most of it true for me yeah. Problem is, GW2 and the ability to switch in and out of guilds, I haven’t found a tight-knit guild until the one I had that fell apart. Either you get a 1-3 people dead guild and 2-3 representing another guild or you get into a super massive zerg guild of 100 online and no one knows anyone.

Personally, I am in a huge, maxed-out PvX guild, with strict rules, like 90% rep (the 10% is for personal guilds), being kicked after 2 weeks of inactivity without notice, with 495+ members at all times as my GM is constantly recruiting people.

And sure, in the first few weeks in my guild, I don’t know anyone in the guild, and quite a few people come and go in such a guild.

But even within a large guild, you may be able to find a group of people who are dedicated, loyal and active, and generally always play a certain mode together. Even with almost 500 members, there’s always different cliques within the guild. The Hardcore Dungeon/Fractal/Raid runners, the PvP group, the WvW people etc.

I found my place in my guild through WvW, (which is made up of less then 5% of our guild members, due to the state of WvW currently). While WvW brought us together, in the end, we pretty much do all the content of gw2 together.

Best way to find friends in gw2 is to simply join a large, active guild, and participate in guild chat and guild activities (besides guild missions). =)

Anyway, good luck finding a purpose to stick with gw2~ because honestly, there isn’t much reason to stick around at the moment. =/

Would love to see the people who are complaining play other F2P games like Dragon Nest or Maple Story. =) Now those are P2W games.

Each skill reset costs what? 10USD?
Each durational skin costs 10 USD for 90 days; or
Skin gives stats so to min-max you’ll need to buy skins anyway. (And because without skins you’ll be ugly in game, hence no-one will party you)

Pet system, which costs 10USD monthly to actually keep your pet alive, oh and extra costs for actual functionality of course.

Oh, and items which lets you ‘safely’ upgrade your weapons, because if not, It will break when you upgrade them. The costs scales with the number of upgrades you have on your weapon, obviously. Only 3$ per upgrade at +6 , and only 40$ per upgrade at +12!

Oh and of course, 10 USD to add upgrade slots to your weapons to let you spend more money on upgrade items.

But take note, after the 3rd highest level, even these item can’t help protect your weapon, so if you really do intend to min-max, you’ll have to gamble
Rest assured we’re here when you need to make your new weapon after you broke your +13 weapon.

You’ll need to spend 5USD to unlock the 10 Upgrade slots we have for your character as well, otherwise you are limited to 3 slots. =) You’ll need to renew this every month of course.

and of course the Gachapon/Altea Box (BL box equivalant) for Mounts and Wings!

Oh and that extra dungeon pass for you to do more dungeons per week? You totally need those as well! And more then 5 selling slot on the Trading post? If you subscribe, you will get unlimited slots! Only 9.99$ per month for the premium experience!

Oh and did I mention after we raise the level cap, all your gear will become obsolete, and you’ll need to spend the same amount of money you have spent on the previous level cap? It’s fine, we only raise the level cap every 6 months or so. =)

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Yeah. This one. Very old data mine, from back when there were town clothes. They also datamined paperbag helms with faces drawn on them and some sort of jester outfit.

(The girl for sure. I think the Asura is the male version)

I would totally buy that, just saying.

But i kind of agree that it might not fit into gw2’s world.

Then again, Fancy Winter’s Outfit, Jungle Explorer Outfit, does look out of place in gw2 as well….

But hey, its around 250+ years after gw1, maybe Cantha have already reached a modern age? Just saying. =)

Vornollo.5182:

EazyPanda.6419:

Oh that’s Easy.

Here’s the build.

Sentinel Amulet (Vit, Power, Toughness)

Rune of Melandru/Resistance

Staff/Staff (Sigil of Energy, Purity, Generosity, Water)

Acro 2 2 2 or CS 3 3 2
Trickery 2 3 2
DareDevil 3 3 1

Skills
Heal:
Channeled Vigor

Utility:
Signet of Agility
Roll for Imitative
Bandit’s Defense

Impact Strike

Usage. Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, use Bandit Defence, Staff 3, Staff 3, Dodge, Staff 3, Staff 3, Swap, Staff 3, Staff 3, Dodge, Signet of Agility, Dodge, Staff 3, Staff 3, Roll of Initiative, Staff 3, Dodge, Dodge, Staff 3, Vault, Dodge, Bandit’s Defence, Dodge……
(Staff 3 can be replaced with vault)
……
……
This may actually work.

And then you find someone with the brain/awareness to interrupt you after the evade frame(s).
gg :/

But I probably have decent sustain in this build. =P (heck, i can “bunker” 1v3 in graveyard with my power build for at least a minute)

Btw, how easy is to to interrupt a DrD spamming staff 3? Really I don’t know. ._.

A 15 sec cd stunbreak, decent(?) condi cleanse, and if i take Acro, they literally cannot catch me, while taking CS will give me more sustain (but more prone to CCs).
The goal is to not ‘tank’, but evade as much as possible.

However… I will not be able to ress people like other bunkers…. =_=
yeah I admit, it’s a 70% troll build…. unless you are playing in Foefire, bunkering Mid (love that huge node which allows me so much room for maneuverability). =P

From what i can see, as you have probably realized yourself, is that the main reason you are feeling this way is because GW2 is best played with friends.

The only real reason I’m still playing (as a thief main), is because of my guildmates. Without them, I’ll probably had moved on into another game by now.

Before i joined my guild, i had the same problem. I was not actually actively playing gw2, playing on and off, logging in just for daily rewards and all.
It all changes when you get (as in really get into) a guild.

I recommend finding an active guild and get involved in it. =)