Guild Wars 2

Sounds good to me. I don’t think class imbalance is so much of some classes being underpowered, but rather some being overpowered.

jkctmc.8754:

@jcbroe

The issue though is with people like even Jazenn, who have said in a round about way that if you feel there is something wrong with the Ranger, you just suck playing the Ranger. That is why things get blown out of proportions. This very thread pretty much says the same thing, just quietly so.

The issue isn’t playing the Ranger well, it is that you can do it so much easier, and better with the other classes.

I even laid out a thread with some ideas to choose from.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Changes-the-Ranger-needs-for-WVW/first

And in this thread I lay out changes I’d like to see in WvW period.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Requesting-WvW-status-update/page/2#post1485377

I have probably gotten to a point where I was tired of “things getting blown out of proportion” and alluded to that, but I don’t try to convey that, especially not in this thread. All I try to do is provide suggestions or counterargument to some statements about the ranger, not about the person playing it. I already know from the past that I disagree with some of your thoughts on the ranger, including ease and effectiveness, but I don’t doubt your ability to play it.

I appreciate suggestion type threads like yours, but I don’t see how they are much different from this one.

@Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981

The only suggestion I want to give you is to try to be more polite in response, rudeness won’t get you anywhere.

Eurantien.4632:

This is a question about technique not builds.

And I asked him what his strategy, armor, and pets were, only to get an idea of what he was aiming for, or what his playstyle was. I couldn’t give much suggestion on the information he gave. It seemed like he wanted to display his build from is original post.

But yes, I agree with verdelet. It seems you like immobilize, the cave spider or krytan drakehound might be a good fit for you. It seems like a solid strategy, and you say you are doing fine with it so that is good. The longbow would benefit from that. On the other hand, with that much immobilize, you could slot a cat which could get off some pretty good burst on a still target. The choice is yours, more damage or more cc. It seems like you have a balance of damage, survivability, and utility though, I like it.

I don’t get emotional over this stuff, I try to politely state my opinion. I probably come off as cold sometimes, just because I have talked about these things a lot. I can agree that my positive experiences can’t speak against other people’s criticisms, but that goes both ways. If someone can criticize based on their experience, than I can criticize as well. If someone gives me an opinion based on their logic, I feel inclined to do the same. I just try to be a voice of optimism in this forum, because I don’t think the ranger is as horrible as a lot make it out to be. I recognize limitations of the ranger and even outright flaws, but those are far from what defines the class. For every thread trying to promote the class, there are 10 that are posts about quitting, raging, re-rolling, angry shouts, detailed lists of flaws, and outcries towards devs. Its like ranger is the Israelites crying out to God to take them to the promised land(aka patch day), only to be disappointed every month. Its not that serious or horrible lol. Acting like it is creates a culture suggesting ranger sucks and that is why newcomers, other classes, and people in game reject the ranger or make jokes about how bad they are. But even so, I see rangers playing fine every time I log into the game, outperforming other professions when they do. That is evidence enough for me that it ain’t that bad. I will continue to disagree with people on the little details but that’s okay, I often learn things in the process. This is the first MMO I paid for and really took a part of in forums and all that, I was surprised at how much complaint there is across the board(not only ranger). I mean usually when people pay $60 for a game I see them play and enjoy what they like. The game may have shortcomings, but what are you gonna do? At least this game can be patched and fixed over time. I guess GW2 is different though.

What is your armor/pets/strategy? Seems interesting, is is a immobilize then burst type deal?

Dahkeus.8243:

Warriors are in a bad place in PvP, so yea, it makes sense that some players are unhappy with warriors. Not everyone cares about being top dps in PvE.

This isn’t just some “grass is greener on the other side” thing.

@ Jazen: If you don’t understand what makes a guardian with a dps build better than a ranger meleeing with a glass cannon build, using the squishiest pet available, then I suggest you try rolling a guardian and trying it out.

I have a guardian alt and play with it occasionally in the mists, so I probably will at somepoint. Also, to clarify, if you mean dps and glass cannon as two different things, I think we may have a misunderstanding. If you are refferring to them as two different things, then I am asserting that when they are speccing for the same thing, whether gc, dps, or bunker, the ranger can have more dps, whatever.

Just heard on another thread that the radius of Bonfire is increased when this trait is slotted.

Jalad Lantana.3027:

This thread was started and sustained all based on total BS and simple gainsaying.

Show a high level fractal video or it’s all just hogwash.

Your “Is – Is Not – Is – Is Not” style of argument is pretty boring and childish.

Fractals are GW2’s litmus test for successful PVE builds.

Show us a ranger pulling their weight in a 10 or greater fractal or go home.

You just made several “is” statements lol. And I hate fractals personally, boring and repetitive. I actually have the impression that build diversity decreases as you go up in levels, so that it is not a measure of successful build. Not to mention that it is one small fraction of the game. Ranger weakness in fractals has already been acknowledged as a problem. So this actually doesn’t make it a good test, unless by PvE you mean dungeons, which has also already been acknowledged.

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Jazenn.7526:

1. It does that? I never noticed… I can’t answer that.
2. Has been addressed the best it can already in the thread.
3. Once again, I haven’t noticed this. Can you not use f1 or f3 during the time? I never noticed this. Usually when you sick a pet loose though, you are setting it from your control to go crazy. If it does do this I can understand it, but I never try to interrupt the skill anyway.
4. I think they are sub-par. They either need a lower ICD or more survivability in my opinon. Not completely unusable though, you will find spirit rangers every now and then.
5. What nice traits in MM are needed for a BM build? The pet condition duration one might pass, but even that matches in MM because of the condition duration stat. BM line is focused on the pet, and all of the skills show that. They aren’t bad really, when added up they can be very nice bonus’s ex. perma vigor or extra regen.
6. They must believe traps to be a skirmishing type utility. The WM line contains boost to the Survival utilities, which honestly match well with the toughness in the line. Not enough room for two sets of utilities maybe? It does help synergy though in a different way, when trap rangers want the condition damage for traps, they are also getting some toughness and survivability they would otherwise need. Maybe though traps can be optimized with the extra cond. damage, they don’t require it and were therefore put into a different line. What if a ranger wanted to run traps but didn’t want to spec that line? Then there would be a whole nother complaint. Can’t answer this perfectly, as I am not Anet.

2. Basically use a range pet if the boss has aoe or pray that when you dodge he’ll stay out of the red circle?
3. If you order your pet to do anything after using Sick’em the buff dissappears.
5. Incr movement speed, incr damage on crits, health on crits, might to the pet on crit.

2. Or use f3, switch, spec, etc.
3. My explanation for this helped me understand this a little better. Sick Em. Letting the pet loose, similar to how a pet-owner might say sick em to his rottweiler against a burglar. When you yell a command out, the rampage stops, and the pet looks to listen.
5. All of those are in the skirmishing line. In my opinon, skirmishing and BM synergize well if you are looking for pet damage. There can only be so many traits in one line, just be glad that they gave you options to help your pet outside of having to put points into BM.

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Compared to warrior that can fill both their power and crit trees.

With 40 points, you either don’t max your precision/crit damage (biggest source of damage from stats) or you miss out on piercing arrows. Either that or you try to run melee and get torn to shreds without a significant investment in defensive stats.

I was not comparing to the warrior. I think the warrior has the most damage in the game. I was talking about the guardian. I think the ranger damage is comparable if not better to guardian dps in the circumstances of that video, and beyond that even.

With 40 points, I can miss out on piercing arrows, especially for the purposes of that video, or I can miss out on a small portion of crit damage and chance that with gear and consumables can still be pretty high. As a result my pet damage increases, and my jag goes from hitting 3-4k to 8k.

So, if you sacrifice the ability to hit more than one target (inherent in warrior melee damage), survivability, and bring a pet squishier than a thief, you might, MAYBE, be able to do as much damage as a class that will inherently heal, buff, and survive damage better than you can, even if you bring healing spring.

Not a very good argument imo.

Also inherent in ranger sword, greatsword, and axe. That’s why we have two weapon sets. And I doubt that guardian was specced for all of that. Your argument isn’t very good in my opinion either. I have more confidence in the pet I guess.

You won’t survive using a sword or greatsword in a glass cannon build, and you’ll never put out decent numbers using an axe.

The guardian in the video was using a scepter to drop Smite, an AoE ability, then switching to the greatsword, which naturally cleaves and drops AoE damage.

I mean specced for survivability, not aoe damage. But you can actually survive like that. Not saying this guy is the best ranger ever, but just for reference purposes I will mention Chronix again(also don’t underestimate axe lol, it’s single target damage is lackluster but against multiple it is not bad at all). Sword does a crap load of damage, if you wanted cleave as an option in would be an excellent choice. Combined with dagger it has three skills used to avoid damage. Combined with dodges and utility skills, you can find survivablility. Don’t know how survivable that guardian in the video was, I’m betting he was specced for damage.

Also, that video was against one npc, which is my context here. Against a group of say 5 mobs, I still think a ranger can pull out traps and axe/torch to outdo the guardian.

It all comes down to this: If you build your ranger into a single target glass cannon with a pet that’s even squishier, you maybe, just maybe, will pull off equivalent dps to a guardian that will do the same damage while cleaving, healing and surviving better…

…which is why people try to avoid taking rangers when possible.

As for Chronix’s videos, that’s PvP. I’m talking dungeon PvE here.

I completely disagree. That video shows none of the guardian’s survivability potential, so we can’t really say. And I would think it is easier to survive in a dungeon than in pvp as a player. NPC’s are more predictable, facetank, and can only target one player at once outside of their aoe’s, which are also very avoidable. That is one reason why that video is so impressive and why NPC’s are given so much power and health. So if a ranger can survive in sPvP as GC, it should be equally or more possible to do it in PvE.

Chicho Gosho.6507:

1. Why when i press F3 my pet doesn’t run directly to me, in a straight line? It sometimes makes almost a square before coming to me.
2. How to keep my pet alive when a boss throws some aoe bombs(for example) directly on himself? It’s insta kill for my pet and pressing F3 can’t save it because runing cant save it from the damage.
3. Why Sick’em makes me lose control of my pet?
4. Do you think spirits suck?
5. Why, a BM ranger, has all those nice traits in MM and so few good ones in BM? (BM minors are great though)
6. Why do you think ANet put traps in the prec/crit dmg tree?

Sry for bad english.

1. It does that? I never noticed… I can’t answer that.
2. Has been addressed the best it can already in the thread.
3. Once again, I haven’t noticed this. Can you not use f1 or f3 during the time? I never noticed this. Usually when you sick a pet loose though, you are setting it from your control to go crazy. If it does do this I can understand it, but I never try to interrupt the skill anyway.
4. I think they are sub-par. They either need a lower ICD or more survivability in my opinon. Not completely unusable though, you will find spirit rangers every now and then.
5. What nice traits in MM are needed for a BM build? The pet condition duration one might pass, but even that matches in MM because of the condition duration stat. BM line is focused on the pet, and all of the skills show that. They aren’t bad really, when added up they can be very nice bonus’s ex. perma vigor or extra regen.
6. They must believe traps to be a skirmishing type utility. The WM line contains boost to the Survival utilities, which honestly match well with the toughness in the line. Not enough room for two sets of utilities maybe? It does help synergy though in a different way, when trap rangers want the condition damage for traps, they are also getting some toughness and survivability they would otherwise need. Maybe though traps can be optimized with the extra cond. damage, they don’t require it and were therefore put into a different line. What if a ranger wanted to run traps but didn’t want to spec that line? Then there would be a whole nother complaint. Can’t answer this perfectly, as I am not Anet.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Jazenn.7526:

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Jazenn.7526:

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Jazenn.7526:

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Wow that is impressive damage. I don’t know if 4 of any other class can do that, I guess that is what the warrior excels at. Damage. However, I think that if you group together any of the same class like that, the results can be suprising. Damage does seem to stand out against NPC and in dungeons, but in wvw or spvp, I think some other professions can really shine when grouped, and even in PvE situations that involve many enemies. For example, 4 necros with constant aoe conditions, perma chill, constant fear, epidemic, and 25 stacks of vulnerability would be insane. 4 mesmers all spamming clones and illusions. Which one is real? 25 stacks of confusion and damage coming in from everywhere, seems like a tough fight. 4 rangers, every step you take is a trap, 25 stacks of bleed plus burn, poison, and chill distributed around. Perma regen and condi removal from all the healings springs. Entangle spam, 4 rampaging rangers with jags and QZ, 4 nature spirits giving 2k aoe regen a second. Seems nice thinking about all of that.

Well, here’s a guardian in the same group setup. Sadly, the profession that is heavily support focused can outdps us as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ac2NGGjjPsU

Even with full berserker gear, a ranger won’t deal this kind of damage largely because the game is designed to favor melee…

…which would be fine if we had a melee build that could dps like this, but the only melee builds we have for PvE pretty much require a serious investment into Wilderness Survival and/or Nature Magic for toughness/vitality.

I will honestly argue that. A feline pet plus damage specced ranger under time warp. Jag stealth, Rao, and Sick ’em. I think a ranger can put out similar to that guardian

I don’t think so because A) the pet wouldn’t get the might boons if the whole group was within range unless you had fortified bond and jaguars are pretty much 1-shot by everything, even with 30 in BM.

Well… then fortifying bond lol. Might stacking from sigils, Rao, and sword as well. Wouldn’t be 25 stacks as quickly, but still. And no, you underestimate pet sturdyiness. I had a jungle stalker survive hits from lupicus yesterday. Not all the hits of course, but not one shot lol.

EDIT: and that was with 15 in BM

Did you have a heal up? Did you have prot up? There are always variables. Did you pull your pet back after that first hit? Even if your pet didnt die in 1 hit, taking 90% of its hp out with 1 hit is still stupid. Pets are worse in dungeons than they are in pvp, and thats bad.

About 50% of the time with HS, yes, and lots of prot and regen from fortifying bond. I pulled him back occasionally to avoid pbaoe. And no, it wasn’t 90% either, it was somewhere around 50% I think, maybe slightly less than. I agree there is a dungeon issue with pets. But there is such thing as over-exaggerating the issue.

Normally, rangers are great in normal pve, but no dungeon bosses 1 shot my pet most of the time. I run squishy pets tho but they shouldnt get 1-2 shotted or killed in seconds. By pulling your pet back you lose a huge chunk of damage, either way my problem isnt with pve, idc about pve, pvp is where its at and there pets are more of an issue than a solution.

You lose less damage than letting the pet die. I also enjoy pvp though, and I think pets have less issues there.

No I agree, dont let your pet die, my point is you have to pull pet back to avoid letting it die, by doing so you lose damage. Other classes just dodge the attack and go back, they dont lose any real dps aside from the dodge roll.

True. But how much of a loss is this? Is it enough to make the ranger put out less damage than other classes? (Besides warrior and thief)

Its quite a big loss. Think about it, pet takes big hit, you pull said pet back, it has to heal, while it heals your damage is very low compared to other classes, you send pet back in for a few secs before you have to pull it back out. That sounds fun to you?

It shouldn’t take but 3 seconds at most I think. With the high damage of say a jaguar I think that is an okay trade off.

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Compared to warrior that can fill both their power and crit trees.

With 40 points, you either don’t max your precision/crit damage (biggest source of damage from stats) or you miss out on piercing arrows. Either that or you try to run melee and get torn to shreds without a significant investment in defensive stats.

I was not comparing to the warrior. I think the warrior has the most damage in the game. I was talking about the guardian. I think the ranger damage is comparable if not better to guardian dps in the circumstances of that video, and beyond that even.

With 40 points, I can miss out on piercing arrows, especially for the purposes of that video, or I can miss out on a small portion of crit damage and chance that with gear and consumables can still be pretty high. As a result my pet damage increases, and my jag goes from hitting 3-4k to 8k.

So, if you sacrifice the ability to hit more than one target (inherent in warrior melee damage), survivability, and bring a pet squishier than a thief, you might, MAYBE, be able to do as much damage as a class that will inherently heal, buff, and survive damage better than you can, even if you bring healing spring.

Not a very good argument imo.

Also inherent in ranger sword, greatsword, and axe. That’s why we have two weapon sets. And I doubt that guardian was specced for all of that. Your argument isn’t very good in my opinion either. I have more confidence in the pet I guess.

You won’t survive using a sword or greatsword in a glass cannon build, and you’ll never put out decent numbers using an axe.

The guardian in the video was using a scepter to drop Smite, an AoE ability, then switching to the greatsword, which naturally cleaves and drops AoE damage.

I mean specced for survivability, not aoe damage. But you can actually survive like that. Not saying this guy is the best ranger ever, but just for reference purposes I will mention Chronix again(also don’t underestimate axe lol, it’s single target damage is lackluster but against multiple it is not bad at all). Sword does a crap load of damage, if you wanted cleave as an option in would be an excellent choice. Combined with dagger it has three skills used to avoid damage. Combined with dodges and utility skills, you can find survivablility. Don’t know how survivable that guardian in the video was, I’m betting he was specced for damage.

Also, that video was against one npc, which is my context here. Against a group of say 5 mobs, I still think a ranger can pull out traps and axe/torch to outdo the guardian.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Jazenn.7526:

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Jazenn.7526:

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Wow that is impressive damage. I don’t know if 4 of any other class can do that, I guess that is what the warrior excels at. Damage. However, I think that if you group together any of the same class like that, the results can be suprising. Damage does seem to stand out against NPC and in dungeons, but in wvw or spvp, I think some other professions can really shine when grouped, and even in PvE situations that involve many enemies. For example, 4 necros with constant aoe conditions, perma chill, constant fear, epidemic, and 25 stacks of vulnerability would be insane. 4 mesmers all spamming clones and illusions. Which one is real? 25 stacks of confusion and damage coming in from everywhere, seems like a tough fight. 4 rangers, every step you take is a trap, 25 stacks of bleed plus burn, poison, and chill distributed around. Perma regen and condi removal from all the healings springs. Entangle spam, 4 rampaging rangers with jags and QZ, 4 nature spirits giving 2k aoe regen a second. Seems nice thinking about all of that.

Well, here’s a guardian in the same group setup. Sadly, the profession that is heavily support focused can outdps us as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ac2NGGjjPsU

Even with full berserker gear, a ranger won’t deal this kind of damage largely because the game is designed to favor melee…

…which would be fine if we had a melee build that could dps like this, but the only melee builds we have for PvE pretty much require a serious investment into Wilderness Survival and/or Nature Magic for toughness/vitality.

I will honestly argue that. A feline pet plus damage specced ranger under time warp. Jag stealth, Rao, and Sick ’em. I think a ranger can put out similar to that guardian

I don’t think so because A) the pet wouldn’t get the might boons if the whole group was within range unless you had fortified bond and jaguars are pretty much 1-shot by everything, even with 30 in BM.

Well… then fortifying bond lol. Might stacking from sigils, Rao, and sword as well. Wouldn’t be 25 stacks as quickly, but still. And no, you underestimate pet sturdyiness. I had a jungle stalker survive hits from lupicus yesterday. Not all the hits of course, but not one shot lol.

EDIT: and that was with 15 in BM

Did you have a heal up? Did you have prot up? There are always variables. Did you pull your pet back after that first hit? Even if your pet didnt die in 1 hit, taking 90% of its hp out with 1 hit is still stupid. Pets are worse in dungeons than they are in pvp, and thats bad.

About 50% of the time with HS, yes, and lots of prot and regen from fortifying bond. I pulled him back occasionally to avoid pbaoe. And no, it wasn’t 90% either, it was somewhere around 50% I think, maybe slightly less than. I agree there is a dungeon issue with pets. But there is such thing as over-exaggerating the issue.

Normally, rangers are great in normal pve, but no dungeon bosses 1 shot my pet most of the time. I run squishy pets tho but they shouldnt get 1-2 shotted or killed in seconds. By pulling your pet back you lose a huge chunk of damage, either way my problem isnt with pve, idc about pve, pvp is where its at and there pets are more of an issue than a solution.

You lose less damage than letting the pet die. I also enjoy pvp though, and I think pets have less issues there.

No I agree, dont let your pet die, my point is you have to pull pet back to avoid letting it die, by doing so you lose damage. Other classes just dodge the attack and go back, they dont lose any real dps aside from the dodge roll.

True. But how much of a loss is this? Is it enough to make the ranger put out less damage than other classes? (Besides warrior and thief)

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Compared to warrior that can fill both their power and crit trees.

With 40 points, you either don’t max your precision/crit damage (biggest source of damage from stats) or you miss out on piercing arrows. Either that or you try to run melee and get torn to shreds without a significant investment in defensive stats.

I was not comparing to the warrior. I think the warrior has the most damage in the game. I was talking about the guardian. I think the ranger damage is comparable if not better to guardian dps in the circumstances of that video, and beyond that even.

With 40 points, I can miss out on piercing arrows, especially for the purposes of that video, or I can miss out on a small portion of crit damage and chance that with gear and consumables can still be pretty high. As a result my pet damage increases, and my jag goes from hitting 3-4k to 8k.

So, if you sacrifice the ability to hit more than one target (inherent in warrior melee damage), survivability, and bring a pet squishier than a thief, you might, MAYBE, be able to do as much damage as a class that will inherently heal, buff, and survive damage better than you can, even if you bring healing spring.

Not a very good argument imo.

Also inherent in ranger sword, greatsword, and axe. That’s why we have two weapon sets. And I doubt that guardian was specced for all of that. Your argument isn’t very good in my opinion either. I have more confidence in the pet I guess.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Jazenn.7526:

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Wow that is impressive damage. I don’t know if 4 of any other class can do that, I guess that is what the warrior excels at. Damage. However, I think that if you group together any of the same class like that, the results can be suprising. Damage does seem to stand out against NPC and in dungeons, but in wvw or spvp, I think some other professions can really shine when grouped, and even in PvE situations that involve many enemies. For example, 4 necros with constant aoe conditions, perma chill, constant fear, epidemic, and 25 stacks of vulnerability would be insane. 4 mesmers all spamming clones and illusions. Which one is real? 25 stacks of confusion and damage coming in from everywhere, seems like a tough fight. 4 rangers, every step you take is a trap, 25 stacks of bleed plus burn, poison, and chill distributed around. Perma regen and condi removal from all the healings springs. Entangle spam, 4 rampaging rangers with jags and QZ, 4 nature spirits giving 2k aoe regen a second. Seems nice thinking about all of that.

Well, here’s a guardian in the same group setup. Sadly, the profession that is heavily support focused can outdps us as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ac2NGGjjPsU

Even with full berserker gear, a ranger won’t deal this kind of damage largely because the game is designed to favor melee…

…which would be fine if we had a melee build that could dps like this, but the only melee builds we have for PvE pretty much require a serious investment into Wilderness Survival and/or Nature Magic for toughness/vitality.

I will honestly argue that. A feline pet plus damage specced ranger under time warp. Jag stealth, Rao, and Sick ’em. I think a ranger can put out similar to that guardian

I don’t think so because A) the pet wouldn’t get the might boons if the whole group was within range unless you had fortified bond and jaguars are pretty much 1-shot by everything, even with 30 in BM.

Well… then fortifying bond lol. Might stacking from sigils, Rao, and sword as well. Wouldn’t be 25 stacks as quickly, but still. And no, you underestimate pet sturdyiness. I had a jungle stalker survive hits from lupicus yesterday. Not all the hits of course, but not one shot lol.

EDIT: and that was with 15 in BM

Did you have a heal up? Did you have prot up? There are always variables. Did you pull your pet back after that first hit? Even if your pet didnt die in 1 hit, taking 90% of its hp out with 1 hit is still stupid. Pets are worse in dungeons than they are in pvp, and thats bad.

About 50% of the time with HS, yes, and lots of prot and regen from fortifying bond. I pulled him back occasionally to avoid pbaoe. And no, it wasn’t 90% either, it was somewhere around 50% I think, maybe slightly less than. I agree there is a dungeon issue with pets. But there is such thing as over-exaggerating the issue.

Normally, rangers are great in normal pve, but no dungeon bosses 1 shot my pet most of the time. I run squishy pets tho but they shouldnt get 1-2 shotted or killed in seconds. By pulling your pet back you lose a huge chunk of damage, either way my problem isnt with pve, idc about pve, pvp is where its at and there pets are more of an issue than a solution.

You lose less damage than letting the pet die. I also enjoy pvp though, and I think pets have less issues there.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Wow that is impressive damage. I don’t know if 4 of any other class can do that, I guess that is what the warrior excels at. Damage. However, I think that if you group together any of the same class like that, the results can be suprising. Damage does seem to stand out against NPC and in dungeons, but in wvw or spvp, I think some other professions can really shine when grouped, and even in PvE situations that involve many enemies. For example, 4 necros with constant aoe conditions, perma chill, constant fear, epidemic, and 25 stacks of vulnerability would be insane. 4 mesmers all spamming clones and illusions. Which one is real? 25 stacks of confusion and damage coming in from everywhere, seems like a tough fight. 4 rangers, every step you take is a trap, 25 stacks of bleed plus burn, poison, and chill distributed around. Perma regen and condi removal from all the healings springs. Entangle spam, 4 rampaging rangers with jags and QZ, 4 nature spirits giving 2k aoe regen a second. Seems nice thinking about all of that.

Well, here’s a guardian in the same group setup. Sadly, the profession that is heavily support focused can outdps us as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ac2NGGjjPsU

Even with full berserker gear, a ranger won’t deal this kind of damage largely because the game is designed to favor melee…

…which would be fine if we had a melee build that could dps like this, but the only melee builds we have for PvE pretty much require a serious investment into Wilderness Survival and/or Nature Magic for toughness/vitality.

I will honestly argue that. A feline pet plus damage specced ranger under time warp. Jag stealth, Rao, and Sick ’em. I think a ranger can put out similar to that guardian

I don’t think so because A) the pet wouldn’t get the might boons if the whole group was within range unless you had fortified bond and jaguars are pretty much 1-shot by everything, even with 30 in BM.

Well… then fortifying bond lol. Might stacking from sigils, Rao, and sword as well. Wouldn’t be 25 stacks as quickly, but still. And no, you underestimate pet sturdyiness. I had a jungle stalker survive hits from lupicus yesterday. Not all the hits of course, but not one shot lol.

EDIT: and that was with 15 in BM

Once you’ve invested 15 in nature magic and 15 into BM, you don’t have much left to invest into glass cannon traits and one of the reasons that Warriors blow everyone else out of the water is that they can survive even after they throw everything into damage dealing talents while maxing out precision and crit damage.

As for pet survival, you can get them to survive some stuff with the right pet management, but even with the best tactics, you won’t get damage out of them the same as a player. Until pets learn to strafe to attack a mob from behind or to dodge attacks instead of completely running out, you will always have a big drain on dps by relying on a pet, even if you can pull off somethign decent in ideal conditions.

It isnt just warriors, my engi, thief, and guardian can all survive incredibly well after putting everything into GC stats/traits. Ranger cant. Ele cant(but can do it better than ranger due to mist form and ride the lightning).

Eh I still disagree. I think Chronix on youtube has some sPvP vids of him running glassy ranger.

Rengaru.4730:

Jazenn.7526:

So they goofed up a nerf, then decided to un-nerf the skill later on? makes sense

We are talking about ArenaNet here

Lol I wasn’t joking, I mean’t it was a sensible explanation for what was being discussed XD

Dahkeus.8243:

Compared to warrior that can fill both their power and crit trees.

With 40 points, you either don’t max your precision/crit damage (biggest source of damage from stats) or you miss out on piercing arrows. Either that or you try to run melee and get torn to shreds without a significant investment in defensive stats.

I was not comparing to the warrior. I think the warrior has the most damage in the game. I was talking about the guardian. I think the ranger damage is comparable if not better to guardian dps in the circumstances of that video, and beyond that even.

With 40 points, I can miss out on piercing arrows, especially for the purposes of that video, or I can miss out on a small portion of crit damage and chance that with gear and consumables can still be pretty high. As a result my pet damage increases, and my jag goes from hitting 3-4k to 8k.

Quarktastic.1027:

I didn’t read much of the thread, but I have two major gripes with the ranger.

First: Pets. Pets, pets, pets. They require an unnecessary amount of micromanagement just to avoid being completely useless altogether. It’s great when I can swap to my sword/greatsword, hit QZ, and burst down a target alongside my trusty jaguar. But how often is my jaguar not floundering around uselessly? How often is it sitting in passive mode so it doesn’t get instagibbed by some PBAoE? It’s not just jaguars either. All pets have serious flaws that the developers seem content to ignore.

Second: Condition removal. Beyond healing spring and the rather mediocre signet of renewal, we have empathic bond, which was never very good, even before it got “nerfed.” It still requires your pet to be alive to take conditions from you, your pet has to be within ~1200 range of you, and now those transferred conditions will likely kill your pet. Rangers are survivalists, if anything, they should be the class with the most condition removal. Instead, we have some of the weakest condition removal.

Those are my issues at the moment. And they’re severe enough to cause me to not enjoy playing my ranger. Jumping into a pack of heavy condition wielding mobs, burning through my 2-3 condition removals, and then getting downed by more conditions is just not a fun experience. Meanwhile, my pet has wandered off to go gnaw on the leg of a risen giant, and my guardian is like…conditions? what are those?

Pets do not take too much management. Going into a fight with an idea for your build should be mandatory. At that point it is pressing 4 buttons with pretty simple commands when you need it. Attack. Retreat. Use utility skill. Switch. This and glancing at the hp is not very difficult in my opinion. I guess I am used to it, maybe it takes practice. Yes, AoE sucks, but that alone does not strike down the pet. In sPvP and WvW, noone even targets your pet. AoE is the only thing that will hit it. I don’t recommend putting a pet on passive except during certain boss fights. In that case keep em close and use for buffs.

Conditions are an tough, yea. Emp bond was fixed, all conditions gone every 10 seconds is a little OP. I will suffer the nerf too though because I used that trait. But we still have the signet, pets, and HS that remove conditions. If you really don’t want condtions, use runes, sigils, and consumables to further combat them. Yes guardians and ele’s can wave away conditions easy, but not every class can. We aren’t the best in this aspect but I don’t think we are the worst. For example, I have heard Mesmer has bad condition removal.

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Wow that is impressive damage. I don’t know if 4 of any other class can do that, I guess that is what the warrior excels at. Damage. However, I think that if you group together any of the same class like that, the results can be suprising. Damage does seem to stand out against NPC and in dungeons, but in wvw or spvp, I think some other professions can really shine when grouped, and even in PvE situations that involve many enemies. For example, 4 necros with constant aoe conditions, perma chill, constant fear, epidemic, and 25 stacks of vulnerability would be insane. 4 mesmers all spamming clones and illusions. Which one is real? 25 stacks of confusion and damage coming in from everywhere, seems like a tough fight. 4 rangers, every step you take is a trap, 25 stacks of bleed plus burn, poison, and chill distributed around. Perma regen and condi removal from all the healings springs. Entangle spam, 4 rampaging rangers with jags and QZ, 4 nature spirits giving 2k aoe regen a second. Seems nice thinking about all of that.

Well, here’s a guardian in the same group setup. Sadly, the profession that is heavily support focused can outdps us as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ac2NGGjjPsU

Even with full berserker gear, a ranger won’t deal this kind of damage largely because the game is designed to favor melee…

…which would be fine if we had a melee build that could dps like this, but the only melee builds we have for PvE pretty much require a serious investment into Wilderness Survival and/or Nature Magic for toughness/vitality.

I will honestly argue that. A feline pet plus damage specced ranger under time warp. Jag stealth, Rao, and Sick ’em. I think a ranger can put out similar to that guardian

I don’t think so because A) the pet wouldn’t get the might boons if the whole group was within range unless you had fortified bond and jaguars are pretty much 1-shot by everything, even with 30 in BM.

Well… then fortifying bond lol. Might stacking from sigils, Rao, and sword as well. Wouldn’t be 25 stacks as quickly, but still. And no, you underestimate pet sturdyiness. I had a jungle stalker survive hits from lupicus yesterday. Not all the hits of course, but not one shot lol.

EDIT: and that was with 15 in BM

Once you’ve invested 15 in nature magic and 15 into BM, you don’t have much left to invest into glass cannon traits and one of the reasons that Warriors blow everyone else out of the water is that they can survive even after they throw everything into damage dealing talents while maxing out precision and crit damage.

As for pet survival, you can get them to survive some stuff with the right pet management, but even with the best tactics, you won’t get damage out of them the same as a player. Until pets learn to strafe to attack a mob from behind or to dodge attacks instead of completely running out, you will always have a big drain on dps by relying on a pet, even if you can pull off somethign decent in ideal conditions.

Actually you do. Still 40 points to be distributed. What you have to take into consideration when optimizing ranger damage is your pet as well, which is also given help by traits.

Yes, your dps will drop when your pet dies. By keeping your pet alive longer, switching before death, and keeping constant combined damage, you can in my opinion outweigh that temporary dps drop with the damage you get from when it is alive. Outside of dungeons, my pets die a lot less as well. And again, in that video, if you replace the guardian with a ranger, I’m saying that the ranger is able to do better than the guardian. Your pet won’t die in that 15 seconds, the npc barely had time to attack, so in that context survivability is negligible. In dungeons in general though, I AGREE that pets have survivability issues due to very little damage mitigation or avoidance.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Wow that is impressive damage. I don’t know if 4 of any other class can do that, I guess that is what the warrior excels at. Damage. However, I think that if you group together any of the same class like that, the results can be suprising. Damage does seem to stand out against NPC and in dungeons, but in wvw or spvp, I think some other professions can really shine when grouped, and even in PvE situations that involve many enemies. For example, 4 necros with constant aoe conditions, perma chill, constant fear, epidemic, and 25 stacks of vulnerability would be insane. 4 mesmers all spamming clones and illusions. Which one is real? 25 stacks of confusion and damage coming in from everywhere, seems like a tough fight. 4 rangers, every step you take is a trap, 25 stacks of bleed plus burn, poison, and chill distributed around. Perma regen and condi removal from all the healings springs. Entangle spam, 4 rampaging rangers with jags and QZ, 4 nature spirits giving 2k aoe regen a second. Seems nice thinking about all of that.

Well, here’s a guardian in the same group setup. Sadly, the profession that is heavily support focused can outdps us as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ac2NGGjjPsU

Even with full berserker gear, a ranger won’t deal this kind of damage largely because the game is designed to favor melee…

…which would be fine if we had a melee build that could dps like this, but the only melee builds we have for PvE pretty much require a serious investment into Wilderness Survival and/or Nature Magic for toughness/vitality.

I will honestly argue that. A feline pet plus damage specced ranger under time warp. Jag stealth, Rao, and Sick ’em. I think a ranger can put out similar to that guardian

I don’t think so because A) the pet wouldn’t get the might boons if the whole group was within range unless you had fortified bond and jaguars are pretty much 1-shot by everything, even with 30 in BM.

Well… then fortifying bond lol. Might stacking from sigils, Rao, and sword as well. Wouldn’t be 25 stacks as quickly, but still. And no, you underestimate pet sturdyiness. I had a jungle stalker survive hits from lupicus yesterday. Not all the hits of course, but not one shot lol.

EDIT: and that was with 15 in BM

Did you have a heal up? Did you have prot up? There are always variables. Did you pull your pet back after that first hit? Even if your pet didnt die in 1 hit, taking 90% of its hp out with 1 hit is still stupid. Pets are worse in dungeons than they are in pvp, and thats bad.

About 50% of the time with HS, yes, and lots of prot and regen from fortifying bond. I pulled him back occasionally to avoid pbaoe. And no, it wasn’t 90% either, it was somewhere around 50% I think, maybe slightly less than. I agree there is a dungeon issue with pets. But there is such thing as over-exaggerating the issue.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Lighter.5631:

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Lighter.5631:

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

KensaiZen.3740:

From my perspective as I main a guardian since launch and now alt as a ranger. Rangers are pretty kitten good. It takes a higher lvl of skill and managing your pet to make it awesome though. You must always be aware of the surroundings and able to use your skills and pet at the right time.

Ranger is definitely not a no brainer class like the warrior. Even harder to play properly then the Guardian.

Rangers have a bad reputation because the learning curve has is quite steep and people have not quite figured out the tactics and strategies to use them effectively.

Versatility is a rangers friend. The ranger can do everything well. without having to change builds. Just limit yourself to being a 1 trick pony.

Poor naive casual.

no, just shut up.

Wow inbred knows 3 words. Sorry but ele and engineer have a much higher skillcap than ranger, its not about skill cap, because even once mastered its still crap. I play a guardian too and have little to know problem with any form of ranger, so before you start spouting l2p crap you should probably know your place and l2p yourself.

“poor naive casual” same as you bro.

Wow your comeback was clever. I mean, you being casual makes everyone better than you a casual right? I mean, Im rank 44 in pvp, with 3 lvl 80s and several 70s because Im casual right? Hell the pvp rank is lower than it would be had I not taken a break from pvp to lvl, Id be rank 60 if I cared. I could show the thousands of pvp matches played with each toon I have to verify my xp. Im betting you couldnt.

Be humble man. The amount of time you spend on the game doesn’t make you better than those who haven’t spent as much time. I bet you are pretty skilled at the game though and your achievements are applaudable. Lets please not result to insults or bragging despite disagreement.

Rengaru.4730:

Solandri.9640:

I guess the next question that comes to mind is: Are there any other off-hand skills which have their damage buffed like this if you have Off-Hand Training traited?

I just checked, it does not.

The reason why Off-Hand Training increased the damage of PoS was the way A-Net handles some traited skills.

There are two different versions of PoS in game, one with a range of 900 and another with a range of 1200 (and a shorter cooldown)

This can be proven if you throw any version of the skill and (un)trait Off-Hand Training, the skill will be off cooldown immediately.

Sometime between the first beta weekend (when I played Ranger for the first time) and November/December last year (when I started playing Ranger on the live servers) the PoS-900 skill got nerfed hard, but A-Net forgot to nerf the PoS-1200 version.

So they goofed up a nerf, then decided to un-nerf the skill later on? makes sense

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Wow that is impressive damage. I don’t know if 4 of any other class can do that, I guess that is what the warrior excels at. Damage. However, I think that if you group together any of the same class like that, the results can be suprising. Damage does seem to stand out against NPC and in dungeons, but in wvw or spvp, I think some other professions can really shine when grouped, and even in PvE situations that involve many enemies. For example, 4 necros with constant aoe conditions, perma chill, constant fear, epidemic, and 25 stacks of vulnerability would be insane. 4 mesmers all spamming clones and illusions. Which one is real? 25 stacks of confusion and damage coming in from everywhere, seems like a tough fight. 4 rangers, every step you take is a trap, 25 stacks of bleed plus burn, poison, and chill distributed around. Perma regen and condi removal from all the healings springs. Entangle spam, 4 rampaging rangers with jags and QZ, 4 nature spirits giving 2k aoe regen a second. Seems nice thinking about all of that.

Well, here’s a guardian in the same group setup. Sadly, the profession that is heavily support focused can outdps us as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ac2NGGjjPsU

Even with full berserker gear, a ranger won’t deal this kind of damage largely because the game is designed to favor melee…

…which would be fine if we had a melee build that could dps like this, but the only melee builds we have for PvE pretty much require a serious investment into Wilderness Survival and/or Nature Magic for toughness/vitality.

I will honestly argue that. A feline pet plus damage specced ranger under time warp. Jag stealth, Rao, and Sick ’em. I think a ranger can put out similar to that guardian

I don’t think so because A) the pet wouldn’t get the might boons if the whole group was within range unless you had fortified bond and jaguars are pretty much 1-shot by everything, even with 30 in BM.

Well… then fortifying bond lol. Might stacking from sigils, Rao, and sword as well. Wouldn’t be 25 stacks as quickly, but still. And no, you underestimate pet sturdyiness. I had a jungle stalker survive hits from lupicus yesterday. Not all the hits of course, but not one shot lol.

EDIT: and that was with 15 in BM

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Wow that is impressive damage. I don’t know if 4 of any other class can do that, I guess that is what the warrior excels at. Damage. However, I think that if you group together any of the same class like that, the results can be suprising. Damage does seem to stand out against NPC and in dungeons, but in wvw or spvp, I think some other professions can really shine when grouped, and even in PvE situations that involve many enemies. For example, 4 necros with constant aoe conditions, perma chill, constant fear, epidemic, and 25 stacks of vulnerability would be insane. 4 mesmers all spamming clones and illusions. Which one is real? 25 stacks of confusion and damage coming in from everywhere, seems like a tough fight. 4 rangers, every step you take is a trap, 25 stacks of bleed plus burn, poison, and chill distributed around. Perma regen and condi removal from all the healings springs. Entangle spam, 4 rampaging rangers with jags and QZ, 4 nature spirits giving 2k aoe regen a second. Seems nice thinking about all of that.

Well, here’s a guardian in the same group setup. Sadly, the profession that is heavily support focused can outdps us as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ac2NGGjjPsU

Even with full berserker gear, a ranger won’t deal this kind of damage largely because the game is designed to favor melee…

…which would be fine if we had a melee build that could dps like this, but the only melee builds we have for PvE pretty much require a serious investment into Wilderness Survival and/or Nature Magic for toughness/vitality.

I will honestly argue that. A feline pet plus damage specced ranger under time warp. Jag stealth, Rao, and Sick ’em. I think a ranger can put out similar to that guardian

Ive done it, and no its not the same damage for serveral reasons, melee hits harder, ranger melee is weaker than guardian or warriors. Pet would probably die in that fight with 1 aoe. Jag only does crazy damage for 6 sec stealth.

The NPC went down in the span of 1 time warp. Less than 15 seconds. One pet, and especially two can easily survive that long, that combined with the quick hits of the ranger sword can add up to impressive damage.. I don’t think the ranger will out dps the warriors in that test, but the guardian, I could see that.

jkctmc.8754:

There are videos in WvW of any class but the Ranger, and Engineer killing 20-50 players with only four of them. When will you provide a video that compares for the Ranger?

There are videos in WvW of Thieves fighting 1v20, or 1v30, scoring kills, and staying alive for a long time, sometimes getting away. When will you provide a video that compares for the Ranger?

There are videos of Warriors soloing boss mobs groups have issues with. When will you provide a video that compares for the Ranger?

The fastest dungeon runs have been done with 4 Warriors, with videos to prove it. When will you provide a video that compares for the Ranger?

It’s easy to say you can do something, but there is no proof. If it can be done, and you know this, then provide the proof. The biggest issues that revolve around the Ranger are in WvW, and their lack of utility compared to other classes, on top of the lack of group buffage in WvW, that other classes provide, without giving up much, if anything at all.

On those first three, hopefully never. That is stupid, OP, and I highly doubt it is intended to be done. On fast dungeon runs, I doubt it. Damage matters more in many dungeons. Warrior exceeds not only ranger in that aspect, but every other class as well, since the NPC’s facetank all the damage. It is the advantage of the warrior. Gratz, you finished the dungeon 5 minutes faster than other classes. Want a trophy?

If you want to see proof of rangers doing well, go to youtube, I don’t want to do make a proof video, I enjoy watching others who choose to put forth that effort. I will make a video at some point probably just showing some gameplay. I am not the type to test either, and I don’t see you providing video proof that the ranger can’t. Look around these forums, other forums, in-game, or on youtube. Plenty of rangers play the game fine, despite any issues the class has.

jkctmc.8754:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Wow that is impressive damage. I don’t know if 4 of any other class can do that, I guess that is what the warrior excels at. Damage. However, I think that if you group together any of the same class like that, the results can be suprising. Damage does seem to stand out against NPC and in dungeons, but in wvw or spvp, I think some other professions can really shine when grouped, and even in PvE situations that involve many enemies. For example, 4 necros with constant aoe conditions, perma chill, constant fear, epidemic, and 25 stacks of vulnerability would be insane. 4 mesmers all spamming clones and illusions. Which one is real? 25 stacks of confusion and damage coming in from everywhere, seems like a tough fight. 4 rangers, every step you take is a trap, 25 stacks of bleed plus burn, poison, and chill distributed around. Perma regen and condi removal from all the healings springs. Entangle spam, 4 rampaging rangers with jags and QZ, 4 nature spirits giving 2k aoe regen a second. Seems nice thinking about all of that.

Well, here’s a guardian in the same group setup. Sadly, the profession that is heavily support focused can outdps us as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ac2NGGjjPsU

Even with full berserker gear, a ranger won’t deal this kind of damage largely because the game is designed to favor melee…

…which would be fine if we had a melee build that could dps like this, but the only melee builds we have for PvE pretty much require a serious investment into Wilderness Survival and/or Nature Magic for toughness/vitality.

I will honestly argue that. A feline pet plus damage specced ranger under time warp. Jag stealth, Rao, and Sick ’em. I think a ranger can put out similar to that guardian

I would love to see the video of this.

Me too.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Eurantien.4632:

@ Dante

I think you meant me. If you could link my a way to make a vid thats free I will do it (i’m not too computer savvy lol). I do not think my ranger LB/GS had dmg on par with every other class. The closest thing to relate it too is like scepter/dagger ele but with more CC and survivability.

Thats my point, aside from the fact that Ive yet to see a viable longbow ranger in paids or any form of pvp, ranger is the only class who cant go balls out glass cannon, and profit from it. Like I said, every other class can change up a few utilities and gain tons of survivability and self healing without sacrificing damage. Ranger sacrifices damage via pet or traits. Or sacrifices survivability via traits/armor setup/pets. If you try going inbetween with a non condi build, ur crap. Before I mastered my 100nades engi while I was still playing my ranger, I felt evasion tanks were the best 1v1 build in this game, now I murder even the best evasion tanks or trap rangers out there quite easily. However since 100nades is focused on landing burst I have to kite alot against better players but I almost always end with the kill. Rangers need a petless option, and some reworking of longbow while some damage buffing of GS.

I doubt GC engi, guardian, or necro would far much better trying to GC everything. 100nade is not easy to play but gratz, has nothing to do with the performance of the ranger though. You simply found something you enjoy more. Every spec choice is a sacrifice of something else.

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Wow that is impressive damage. I don’t know if 4 of any other class can do that, I guess that is what the warrior excels at. Damage. However, I think that if you group together any of the same class like that, the results can be suprising. Damage does seem to stand out against NPC and in dungeons, but in wvw or spvp, I think some other professions can really shine when grouped, and even in PvE situations that involve many enemies. For example, 4 necros with constant aoe conditions, perma chill, constant fear, epidemic, and 25 stacks of vulnerability would be insane. 4 mesmers all spamming clones and illusions. Which one is real? 25 stacks of confusion and damage coming in from everywhere, seems like a tough fight. 4 rangers, every step you take is a trap, 25 stacks of bleed plus burn, poison, and chill distributed around. Perma regen and condi removal from all the healings springs. Entangle spam, 4 rampaging rangers with jags and QZ, 4 nature spirits giving 2k aoe regen a second. Seems nice thinking about all of that.

Well, here’s a guardian in the same group setup. Sadly, the profession that is heavily support focused can outdps us as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ac2NGGjjPsU

Even with full berserker gear, a ranger won’t deal this kind of damage largely because the game is designed to favor melee…

…which would be fine if we had a melee build that could dps like this, but the only melee builds we have for PvE pretty much require a serious investment into Wilderness Survival and/or Nature Magic for toughness/vitality.

I will honestly argue that. A feline pet plus damage specced ranger under time warp. Jag stealth, Rao, and Sick ’em. I think a ranger can put out similar to that guardian

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

@Jazenn.

Show the video then, and Im calling BS. Changing out zerker stats and damage traits lowers your damage significantly and you are still squishy, I literally have no problem against any longbow ranger, ever. By all means tho show me how longbow can do competetive damage and still have survivability on par with other classes. I mean competetive damage, not decent, I want damage on par with every other class.

I will admit I dont use longbow and I don’t like it. I haven’t found a way to utilize it in a way that I want and be effective. It does the damage though, you only claimed it was weak, I never said it had good survivability, because I don’t think it does. I would probably work best with it using it as a secondary weapon set, switching just to spam certain skills when I get the chance. On another note, the damage from every class is not equal by any means. When full zerker specced, warrior stands out on top imo, with thief up there too. Of the classes left, I believe the ranger has competitive damage. When you factor in survivability and balance it with damage, I already think that the ranger is on par. If it wasn’t this way, no one would lose to rangers. There was a post yesterday night of a test comparing warrior and ranger dps that was interesting too. Check that out.

Dahkeus.8243:

Jazenn.7526:

Dahkeus.8243:

Eurantien.4632:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Well duh. If I could run this I would lol. This is a way bigger problem. I wouldn’t even take an ele, or guardian, or necro, or engi, or thief, or ranger If I had this option. This has nothing to do with ranger.

Rangers have one frost field and it only comes from a slot skill that deals no damage. Eles do have a water field, even if it’s not on d/d and you don’t need to bring a ranger for that one field alone.

And the reason that this is relevant is that the problem with ranger comes down to this: There’s no role in dungeons that a ranger does better than any other class. Mesmers, guardians and ele do support better. Warriors and even guardians (with the right build) do damage better. Necros and engineers do conditions better. Engineers and Eles do combo fields better.

Again, you can get through content with a ranger, I won’t argue that, but they’re something you settle on, not something you go for when building a group.

1. Some of those “better than” comparisons have to be optimized to be “better” and even then are arguable.

2. But the ranger can do it all, being a jack of all trades.

1) Umm..yea, no one is arguing that a ranger is worse than a warrior with a terrible build or that they can’t outdps a warrior with a support build.

2) Jack of all trades…master of none. This would be fine if you didn’t have to respec and regear to be able switch to a different trade, but your support will suck in berserker gear and your dps will suck in clerics gear.

Yep. That’s why I shoot for balanced gear and builds. Gives you more utility than going all in to one thing. I am lucky to have 2 armor sets to switch around, and I am working on getting another one, more balanced stat-wise.

Omega.1473:

In general, my ranger can compete with most, but there are instances where there is never going to be an opportunity for my ranger to be the equal of any other class.

Biggest example : Subject Alpha Path 2/3. My pet will die. There’s nothing I can do about it. Its that simple. There is no physical way to keep a pet alive during that fight. Devourers hitting from range? Can’t dodge the fire balls. Bears in melee? Can’t dodge the ice/earth AoE’s. Signet of Stone? Slotted and traited, it can only save them from 1 volley. Quick swaps? Doesn’t matter, the pet can’t survive 15 seconds even with liberal use of Healing Spring just to keep them alive.

Its not about smart use of F3. Its not about constant F4 swapping. Its just not possible to keep the pet alive and because of that, I’ve lost 30% of my damage for the fight.

The first thing that they can do for us? Make pets evade on dodge. Its that simple. Not the measily 3 seconds of protection at WS 15. That’s going to do jack-squat when the boss is laying down stacked 10k AoE’s every 8 seconds.

True. That is an example of something that is a problem for rangers right now. Similar to fractal agony. Pets die a lot in dungeons, more than any other setting. AoE damage is a problem in PvE against pets. Solutions he listed are suggestions to help you deal with it until it gets addressed. He deals with it the best he can. So do I. Make advantage of when it is alive and try to keep them that way.

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Wow that is impressive damage. I don’t know if 4 of any other class can do that, I guess that is what the warrior excels at. Damage. However, I think that if you group together any of the same class like that, the results can be suprising. Damage does seem to stand out against NPC and in dungeons, but in wvw or spvp, I think some other professions can really shine when grouped, and even in PvE situations that involve many enemies. For example, 4 necros with constant aoe conditions, perma chill, constant fear, epidemic, and 25 stacks of vulnerability would be insane. 4 mesmers all spamming clones and illusions. Which one is real? 25 stacks of confusion and damage coming in from everywhere, seems like a tough fight. 4 rangers, every step you take is a trap, 25 stacks of bleed plus burn, poison, and chill distributed around. Perma regen and condi removal from all the healings springs. Entangle spam, 4 rampaging rangers with jags and QZ, 4 nature spirits giving 2k aoe regen a second. Seems nice thinking about all of that.

Dahkeus.8243:

Eurantien.4632:

Dahkeus.8243:

Also, if you’re still unclear on it, this is why people make groups with 4x warrior + 1 mesmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EUhUj1aL0yA

The group can stack 25 might immediately plus fury. If a group like that hits harder content and needs more healing/protective support, they will bring a guardian or ele.

Well duh. If I could run this I would lol. This is a way bigger problem. I wouldn’t even take an ele, or guardian, or necro, or engi, or thief, or ranger If I had this option. This has nothing to do with ranger.

Rangers have one frost field and it only comes from a slot skill that deals no damage. Eles do have a water field, even if it’s not on d/d and you don’t need to bring a ranger for that one field alone.

And the reason that this is relevant is that the problem with ranger comes down to this: There’s no role in dungeons that a ranger does better than any other class. Mesmers, guardians and ele do support better. Warriors and even guardians (with the right build) do damage better. Necros and engineers do conditions better. Engineers and Eles do combo fields better.

Again, you can get through content with a ranger, I won’t argue that, but they’re something you settle on, not something you go for when building a group.

1. Some of those “better than” comparisons have to be optimized to be “better” and even then are arguable.

2. But the ranger can do it all, being a jack of all trades.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Why cant rangers wrong a viable power build?

Why is longbow and GS our weakest weapons?

Why do my pets die in seconds if I want a damage pet?

Why do our traits have no Synergy?

Why do ranger pets hit harder than the ranger without being BM?

Why does anet seem to care more about our underwater abilities than land abilities?

Why does my ranger have to give up so much damage for survivability, or so much survivability for damage when other classes dont(except ele)?

Why does my damage drop by insane amounts when pet dies?

Why are traps the only true viable build we have?

Answer these plz, Id love to see how you come about it.

Sure you can, just equip the armor for it. I think someone (maybe Chronix) had video of a power build he ran in spvp. Had pretty good damage.

Longbow getting 10k+ damage on channel and 2k on autoattack at long range is not really weak, especially when you factor in permanent +10% damage. Some rangers love longbow, I personally don’t because it isn’t my playstyle, but it is definitely not the weakest. Greatsword is one of our “weaker” weapons damage-wise when looking at autoattack, but it still does pretty damage. Still, the autoattack can get up to 1.5k on crit builds. Maul, Swoop, and Counterattack can all hit above 3k in high damage builds. If you want it to do damage, up your stats. I personally use greatsword defensively though because of it’s utility, or when comboing damage with my pet.

Pets can have as much survivability as a player. The high damage ones can have high burst, but as a logical consequence, low survivability, similar to a GC ranger. They also do not have their own defensive capabilities for the most part (cats and birds). As a result, you must keep them alive via traiting BM, buffing them, controlling them more, or providing cc and combined assault/retreat in a way that makes them effective. The devs obviously don’t think that a pet that can hit 8k in a single strike should be alive the whole fight, having pets die and be on cooldown may be their way of preventing them from being OP, at least in sPvP.

Traits have flaws, but are plenty synergetic. Example, the shortbow is optimal for crit proc, and the trait regarding it’s cooldowns are therefore located in the crit chance line. Fortifying bond, spirits, and protection and regen boon type traits are located in the line that gives boon duration. Crit chance is in the same line as crit damage(really a luxury when looking at other classes without this). Toughness goes with cond. damage, which matches well with armor setups like carrion, rabid, and shaman.

I suspect that pets hit harder because the ones that do are melee, and melee usually gets more damage than ranged. They also hit less times than a player will, so for their damage to count they hit higher. Many complain that rangers can’t hit high. Well if the pet hits high, that is sort of a compensation/supplement. Combined, the damage is nice and at times insanely high.

Underwater? Idk, but every class received underwater overhaul, not just ranger. Maybe underwater was getting underplayed in general, or they care less about the balance there, but this does not really matter imo. I bet if underwater combat did not exist, the same things would have happened patch-wise across all professions. Just be happy for the extra content.

Other classes don’t? Speccing full damage engi, necro, thief, mesmer nets you better survivability than full damage ranger? I can understand heavy armor, but otherwise no. We still have numerous evades, plus protect me and signet of stone. That is potentially 15 seconds of damage mitigation at the least using all that, before your heal. Not really worse off than those other 4 I mentioned, except maybe thief with stealth. On the other side, we can spec full survivability and then STILL spec our pets to do extremely high damage. I think we are better off than many classes in that aspect.

Your damage drops because your pet was doing damage and since you let it die it can no longer do damage. Depending on your spec, it may or not be “insane” damage drop.

Trap is not the only viable build. That is not true at all. It may be popular in sPvP now, but by no means is it our only good build. Just playing the game and encountering other rangers can prove that.

Eurantien.4632:

Also note, that I’ve done more PvP than PvE so although I have done a lot of high level dungeons I do not know ALL the possible PvE build that a ranger could run. Although I bet power/precision/toughness would be pretty devastating.

I want that stat combo so bad XD for other professions too.

Dahkeus.8243:

Eurantien.4632:

Hey guys. I have played Ranger since beta. I have played enough of the other classes to know the extent of what they can do. However, with so much time spent on the Ranger I believe I have tried every build out there. I mean every build. Seriously, I’ve run GS/spirits in PvP before (it was decent).

So besides the fact that spirits suck in PvE for the most part and axe offhand isn’t Ideal. What problems do you have with the ranger? I will help you solve them.

Warrior brings more dps to dungeon runs and ele/mesmer bring more utility.

Why bring a ranger if you can bring a warrior or mesmer instead? I mean, if you can’t fine one of those a guardian or ele is still better than a ranger.

Even if the ranger goes melee, they still can’t touch the dps of a warrior and are a lot squishier unless they trait enough survival talents and lose even more dps.

You can bring group buffs from pets/spirits, regen and condi removal as well as best water field in the game. Easy fire and ice combo fields, sustained ranged damage. Pets can draw aggro as well. Our damage can still be significant, even though it is not the warrior’s. For example, the method my guildmates use to run Arah and beat lupicus is by having usually 2 or 3 rangers maintain damage the whole fight, doing the entire first stage alone. When fighting the final boss of path 3 the rangers kite the npc’s while everyone else focuses on capping. My guild leader never wants to run arah without rangers.

Solandri.9640:

Rengaru.4730:

• Before the patch if you traited Off-Hand Training the damage increased by 85 percent. This was not mentioned anywhere.

I guess the next question that comes to mind is: Are there any other off-hand skills which have their damage buffed like this if you have Off-Hand Training traited?

This is a good question and should be tested.

Oh okay
I hadn’t realized offhand training increased the power of the skill.

On another note, the damage from this skill (if it hits both ways), can get to about 5k. Not too bad.

Jyenh.5739:

Jazenn.7526:

Play how you want, but realize that you are playing the ranger class. If you don’t want to use pets don’t play ranger.

That’s not the point, I’m saying the pet isn’t everything to a ranger, I like ranger, the skills and animations feel right. I’m playing a ranger for how it’s played, not for its pets, you don’t need to focus on utilising your pet to be a good, or even an excellent ranger.

Rangers aren’t the ‘pet profession’ they are a ‘profession with pets,’ with indicates that it includes, not limits them to pets. If you want to go ahead, if not but you like the feel of a ranger, keep playing, the dps isn’t a great big set back until you get into PvP/WvW, purely due to players knowing how the pets work now.

I find it quite humorous how we/people complain about the ranger class being ‘bad,’ yet when my friends watch me play they say rangers are ‘OP.’ So maybe we’re just looking into minor details?

Pets aren’t the entire picture, but they are arguably the most important, being the class mechanic. The ranger is THE pet class, no other class’ minions have the combined ability our pets have to survive, put out damage, and provide utility. If you find a way to succeed while ignoring the pet, you are a very skilled ranger and I applaud you, at the same time I will believe that you aren’t optimizing the class for what it is intended to be. I generally think that you don’t have to “focus” on the pet, but that you do have to pay attention to it.

On another note, I don’t believe the class is either bad or OP personally, but then again for everyone that is just their opinion. I think that we can do some impressive things but at the same time there are still some issues that need to be addressed. Taking all I know into account, I love the class, it is my favorite and I enjoy playing on it.

I am a bit confused on the patch notes in regards to this skill. Is it traitable outside of the cooldown and range? I don’t notice an 85% damage increase either, it seems to be hitting the same as it did yesterday.

Maybe I’m delusional, can anyone explain or does anyone notice this 85% damage buff?

Why?

Because people love to rage. Whether it’s because they aren’t winning, aren’t enjoying the playstyle, winning but need to inflate their ego, or just wanting something to argue against, there will always be ragers. Some is legitimate, as the ranger(nor any other class, or the game in general) is perfect. But forum spam about the same problems, typical complaints, and unhelpful gripes just become useless after a while. It’s hilarious, kind of like the political or racial arguments that youtube comment sections devolve to. It just becomes that funny but sad occurrence. Lol. Then again, it sort of unites rangers and brings us together. I enjoy meeting new rangers in-game, no matter what their opinions. It provides good discussion and learning. The raging seems to be on the decline though, I see many interesting threads around.

Wanderer.5471:

Zetus.1476:

Underwater Spirits
Casting a spirit underwater and then exiting to land while that spirit is still alive will allow you to keep your ground utility off cooldown.

Basically if you casted the protection spirit for example underwater and then exited to land, your utility would be considered unused as long as it isn’t the same spirit linked to that key. This is extremely useful and even works for elites. You can end up having the benefits of the Spirit of renewal and RaO if you stay near the water.

I haven’t tested the reverse situation of casting a spirit on land and then going into water.

For small maps like Raid of Capricorn, this is a pretty good tip.

Great tip about the spirit slots, but the elite spirit can’t be cast underwater can it??

It can. It comes out as a whale.

vespers.1759:

fact is, lightning reflexes is garbage unless you’re facing your opponent.

Exactly, that is what it is meant for. Not for giving you extra gap while running away, but for evading/creating distance and increasing survivability during a fight. Can still be used to escape battle though if you use it initially, as soon as you decide you want to run.

Also, I don’t think lightning reflexes is bad.

Yes this build can be altered to work for apothecary type armor, and conditions would become the ranger’s form of damage.
On avoiding shortbow burst, use the greatsword block to get 3 seconds of damage avoidance. Use swoop to get in the opponents face, then work on crippling/immobilizing him. Use healing spring to cleanse some of their conditions and maintain regen.

Okay lol that’s a little better. Still sucks it has to be used in that way but that is acceptable I suppose. Lol thanks guys.

nerva.7940:

You get the exact same playstyle with apothecary gear except you do way more damage and dont get killed spamming sword #1

I switch between veggie pizza and lemongrass poultry soup. Bark skin + 40% reduction on conditions is the best combo imo. You should maintain perma vigor no problem with birds

I don’t get killed spamming sword #1.

So you play the condition damage variant? Hm, what weapons and skills do you have?

Confirmed. When you view the pet’s buff after using the skill, it very often debuffs right before combat. I tried this multiple times in PvE and in PvP and the result is the same. I also think I have the true cause. Druzilla was correct, it drops when using a skill afterwards. While I am not sure if this is a ranger skill that procs that ( I didn’t test that). I am almost certain that it is the pets ability. This is because pets almost ALWAYS open combat with one of their skills, for instance, the cat and drake I tested open with bite, and the buff dropped as the AI began the cast time for the skill.

This is a important find and must be fixed, we have been missing out on a HUGE pet buff that I thought was working fine. What must have been happening was the buff works and it seems as it has the extra movement speed, but as soon as it enters combat the pet always activates one of their combat skills(not the autoattack) and the buff drops, so it loses the speed and never benefits from the damage.

What needs to be fixed is this: The buff cannot be lost when another ability is activated. It needs to last the full duration.

Unfortunately we will most likely have to wait a month at least for this to be fixed, even if we report it now. And even that is being optimistic. The changes in the game I can understand being slow, but bugs need to be fixed asap, and I am positive this counts as a bug.

EDIT: Looking at Vox’s post I will present another possibility I may have overlooked. It is possible the skill is debuffing because we are entering combat. Maybe if the entire process took place during combat, the skill would work. I cannot test this right now because I have to go, but I hope we can identify and report this bug quickly so that it may be fixed.