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Legion.4198

Amazing post! I can find myself in your ideas, but I believe this will be a very, very, very distant update, and although I want it to come soon, it might be better if they refined the stuff that is in-game at this moment.

Thanks. Indeed, I’m aware that any future expansion will take a long time and it is possible that a couple of years might pass even before we see a glimpse of a proper expansion. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to post my ideas in advance.

The following two sections are centered on Cantha proper. The idea of New Kaineng is partially a homage to the whole fictional concept of Neo Tokyo often found in manga, anime and videogames. New Kaineng would serve as the main hub of the campaign (similar to Divinity’s Reach, the Black Citadel and so on). Other potential sources for inspiration could be found in works such as Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner and Deus Ex: Human Revolution. The film Metropolis (1927), and the anime, could serve also for inspiration for the themes and design of modern Kaineng.

Keeping with the concept of a modern Cantha, I also suggest to base the modern Canthan army on the Napoleonic age. The idea is to reproduce the same feelings of modernization seen in Japan during the Boshin War while creating an unique look for Cantha in Guild Wars 2. The key is to combine Asian and Napoleonic styles almost seaming-less. (Last pic made with HeroMachine 3.)

Finally, I talk about the Ministry of Purity and how they could be portrayed in the world of Guild Wars 2.

*Metropolis (1927) is under Free Domain.

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Sorry, I had more work than I expected during the last week and I have been busy. Anyway. The next section of my suggestion talks about Cantha and its relationship with the outside world and its re-encounter with the continent of Tyra.

The second part is centered on the first contact with Cantha. This part of the story doesn’t even need to be part of the main expansion and could be introduced as a demo or prelude to the expansion itself, similar to the current Flame and Frost event.

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Humans in Guild Wars are often compared as the elves from other settings. A once powerful race of almost divine creatures who have fallen to bad times with all their glories behind. Besides things like immortality, pointy ears etc, Humanity’s story in Guild Wars and its themes fall within the common Elf archetype. Whatever storyline might be used for a Canthan expansion, I think it would be a good idea to explore these themes in the Canthan expansion. Because of its history, power and age, I believe that Cantha would be the perfect candidate, after the extinction of Orr, to follow the High Elves archetype. In particular the xenophobic and imperialist yet tremendously powerful version. So, I believe that the best way to characterize Cantha is to portrait it as tremendously powerful and successful, yet, rotten in the inside. It would offer an interesting contrast with the underdog that it is Kryta and would represent everything that Kryta could have been and what could become, for better and for worse.

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Most Canthan soldiers will use rifles with bayonets or polearms. Imperial soldiers will be equally skilled at distance as at melee. They will be highly disciplined, used to fighting vastly outnumbered by Elonian undead hordes and non-humans barbarians as result of having to often fight thousands of miles of Cantha’s mainland with all logistical constrains it involves. Canthan soldiers will use their superior technology, and magics, in form of field cannons, grenades, minefields, terracotta wargolems, incendiary and gas rockets, and advanced tactics to win the day.

The Ministry of Purity

We won’t be the first to visit Kaineng. By the time we reach the city, a year would have passed since the first contact in Tyria. The city will be full of Tyrian merchants attempting to open business in the massive city and adventurers seeking fortunes. This way the presence of Waypoints and Asura Gates in Cantha will be easily justified. Canthans will be interested in Asura and Charr technologies but they will remain mistrusting and even hostile to the newcomers. Canthan authorities in general will be shown to know surprisingly a lot about what was going on in Tyria despite the 100 years blockade thanks to the divination and fortune-telling skills of the sages from the Canthan Oracle.

The Canthan Empire will be a ruthless meritocratic state heavily influenced by the ideals of the xenophobic Ministry of Purity who will behave as its State Sec. During “Winds of Change”, The Ministry of Purity was characterized as a populist movement with a ruthless approach to the enforcement of the law in their determination to clean up the city after the Jade Brotherhood and Am Fah criminal gangs and hunt down anything they perceive as a threat to the Canthan Empire.

As result of this, I think that the ideology that best describe the acts of the Ministry of Purity is the Chinese philosophy known as Legalism. Legalism, is a Chinese radical utilitarian school of thought that defends that the beginning and end of morality and purpose of life itself is the law at the service of the state, nothing more. Legalism was known for its harsh and severe punishments -Not reporting a criminal (even if that criminal was your father) meant the death penalty or worse- regardless of the circumstances. The Legalism philosophy ultimately believes that all people are flawed and even outright evil and only the law can create a prosperous and ordered society. It is also intensely meritocratic, allowing anyone with the skills necessary reach high places of powers regardless of their origin.

Obsessed with order and structure, the philosophy demanded an highly efficient and well-oiled Celestial Bureaucracy even going so far as to calculate exactly the amount of work done by all the artisans under the orders of the official with mathematical precision and absolute obedience to the Emperor. The law is harsh and applied equally regardless of your social class. Because of this, I believe that no other ideology describes better the modus operandi of the Ministry of Purity. They are the perfect representation of the Utilitarian ideals at its most extreme, without any idealism attached. A second source of inspiration for The Ministry of Purity might be the excesses performed by the Jacobin during the French Revolution with the infamous Great Terror and the Committee of Public Safety lead by Robespierre.

This obsession the Ministry of Purity has with order and control could be reinforced by them by replicating the attempts of French Revolutionaries to make a complete humanist system with things like creating a calendar without royalist or religious influences made up of only 10 months, instead of 12, and changing the hours of the day to 10 hours and each hour 100 minutes and calling everyone “Citizen” and the newcomers of even the own Canthan citizens complaining about these changes.

Most agents from the Ministry of Purity will hold, Inspector Javert-like attitudes, however the higher ranks will be more politically savvy and will manipulate our presence for their own goals. Canonically, the Ministry of Purity will not persecute us because we are foreigners in their land, but because we saw a crime and didn’t report it. Thus the extremist views of the Ministry of Purity will be reinforced. They will have instructions to not persecutes us inside the walls of New Kaineg, but in the Old Kaineng, all bets are off.

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New Kaineng

Eventually, we will be asked to go to Cantha itself to clarify the situation with the Xunlai Company. The player character will be offered the chance to be the ambassador of their particular nation to the gargantuan metropolis of Kaineng. As a symbol of courtesy, the Hand of the Emperor will offer his personal flotilla to Cantha Mainland and from there on, he will become a major character of the storyline to the very end.

The Empire will be ruled by an Enlightened Despot whose reign would have lasted for the last 50 years. The last of the Weh no Su Emperors will be presented as the antithesis of Queen Jennah and his character will be as burdened by paradox as the Empire will be. He will be the biggest representation of the Canthan faith in the ability of humanity to understand and categorize the natural world fully. The Emperor will have a predominantly scientific background like King Sejong (from Korea) or the Tsar Peter the Great and other similar rulers who were inventors as well as statesmen. As an engineer himself (unlike Queen Jennah who is a Mesmer sorceress), the Emperor will be the patron of science in the Empire and his palace will reflect his numerous inventions with multiple members of the Imperial Court being technocrats, scholars and scientists along with member of the Celestial Ministry. Despite his general antagonism toward us, especially if the player is a Norn, a Sylvari or a Tengu, the Emperor will grants us full diplomatic rights, immunities and courtesy while remaining in the “New Kaineng” district but he will offer no protection if we venture beyond the city.

The history behind this “New Kaineng” district would be inspired by Haussmann’s Renovation of Paris commissioned by Napoleon III in 1853, during the Second French Empire, that transformed the old cesspool of disease and squalor that was Paris into the city with wide streets and boulevards we know as Paris today. The project bulldozed three quarters of Paris and was not finished until the end of the 19th century. “New Kaineng” will be the pet project of The Hand of the Emperor to reform the city with all the lessons learned during the last 250 years of Urban Planning. New Kaineng will be the most modern and clean section of the city with fountains celebrating his victories (very popular in Old Kaineng), water works, modern sewers and roads, modern looking flags adorning the streets and official buildings, schools for engineers and scientists, clubs for the rising bourgeois class, monuments, theaters and museums. This area will also be the site of the Ministerial District and Xunlai Headquarters. Its inhabitants will have vastly superior sanitary and working conditions to the rest of the city.

However, like the Haussmann’s Renovation, this New Kaineng will have an implied, never confirmed, ulterior military motive. The wide open streets would facilitate not only transport merchandise but also the movements of troops and artillery to supress any potential revolt and making the construction of improvised barricades impossible. I suggest centering it around the old Vizunah Square, having replaced the old Kaineng Central as the core of the city after the result of its devastation caused by the Zhaitan’s Great Tsunami. The project will be largely unfinished but will serve as a safe haven for our characters outside the storyline.

The city will be protected by the Imperial Guard and the Grand Canthan Navy. Strategic section of the city will be protected by forts with powerful anti-ship cannons and naval minefields. Kaineng will have resisted an invasion of the Deep Sea Dragon no less than three times. At least one major war between Elona and Cantha will be mentioned as a major drive for Cantha’s current state.

Canthan Soldiers patrolling the streets wearing a mix of traditional Asian lamellar armor, on top of Napoleonic-style uniforms will protect the city from incursions of the Deep Sea Dragon and other threats that might endanger the city. Officers will wear a heavier solid cuirass, similar that of the Cuirassier cavalry of the 19th century, often adorned with particular motif to their regiment. While it is unrealistic to believe that another culture would develop a similar sense of fashion as the ones used by Europe on their own, I believe here the image of having Canthan Soldiers dressing and fighting like the infantry of line of the Napoleonic Wars is more important for the audience and it would reinforce the image of modernity and expansionism of Cantha. In practice, as long as they dress how the Ministry of Purity dressed in the original GW but with a rifle and, a shako hat, it would produce a similar sense of modernity.

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An Empire Within an Empire

The Canthan representatives will have come to Tyria to reestablish contact with the isolated Tyria. The site for of the meeting would be the Karka Island (an ideal neutral ground for players who have completed the main storyline). The Hand of the Emperor will tell us that the Empire is aware of our victory over Zhaitan and will claim that they want to resume the trade between Tyria and Cantha, seeking to open the untapped markets on the continents for the Canthan merchants after 200 years of limited contact.

This section of storyline will be partially based on the Opium War but in reverse. The Empire would have expanded its colonies by a combination of trade, exploration, sneaky diplomacy, gunboat diplomacy and even chemical and biological warfare. Overall, Cantha will behave like a modern nation-state. Part of the storyline would take place in Tyria, the Ring of Fire, and the surrounding islands up to the Battle Isles (Now a Penal Colony). Unlike the main campaign, the nations present in Tyria will have a far stronger role than what we saw during our fight against Zhaitan, thus leaving a more background role to the three Orders of Tyria (Vigil, Priory, Order of Whispers). Canthan diplomats will appear in the Krytan throne in Divinity’s Reach, the Arcane Council and the rest of the courts and government buildings of the continent. The Canthan diplomats will offer advisers, technicians and ambassadors to the different governments in Tyria and modernization of Kryta in a gesture of goodwill. In reality, this will be the prelude to t he colonization of Tyria by the Empire.

These efforts will be directed by the Xunlai Company. The Xunlai will act as the Imperial Agents with the task of setting contact with foreign cultures, opening trade, colonize them and assimilate them into the Empire. The Great Collapse section in Divinity’s Reach will be replaced by a financial district under the control of the Xunlai. The old Xunlai Guild we know will have evolved into a something similar to the Honourable British East Indian Company, a megacorp which ruled India from the 17th century onwards and de facto Empire within the Empire. I would go so far as to name the modern incarnation of the Xunlai after the real life company. The Xunlai Company will one of the biggest responsible for ending the isolationist policies of Cantha and subsequent expansion. Like its real life equivalent, they will have their own army, their own navy, their own administration and even their own flag. The Tyrian Consortium and the Xunlai will clash more than once. They will represent the main foes during the first portion of the storyline and will remain a strong influence throughout the storyline to the very end. The Xunlai armies will be composed of a combination of Canthan Soldiers, Kurzicks and Luxons mercenaries, and conquered non-humanoid races conscripted into their armies.

The sum of the Canthan Fleet will outnumber and outgun all the fleets of the planet put together. The threat of Cantha deciding to destroy the cities of Lion’s Arch and even Rata Sum and even invade Tyria’s mainland will be a major fear throughout the campaign. The smallest Canthan warship will have a total of 34 cannons with a firepower far superior to any vessel in Tyria. The average Canthan Ship of Line will have more firepower than an entire army with a total of 80 cannons and depth charges (developed to fight against the Deep Sea Dragon and other undersea threats). The most powerful warships will be the five Dreadnoughts ironclads (The Azure Dragon, Vermilion Bird, White Tiger, Black Tortoise and The Yellow Dragon) distributed around the world. With 180 cannons and incendiary rockets. A single Canthan Dreadnought will have enough firepower to destroy a major city such as Lion’s Arch in a matter of hours. The legacy of a Cold War with it most immediate rival Elona.

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The Empire on which the Sun never sets

“C is for colonies, rightly we boast that of all the great countries, Great Britain has the most."

It has been argued that of the 5 playable races only the Humans, plus the Tengu, would be interested in attempting to reach Cantha. The Charr, Norn, Sylvari and Asura would have no interest in attempting a dangerous and long expedition to a potential hostile and xenophobic land such as the Canthan Empire. So I suggest that Cantha come to us instead.

The first contact with the forces of the Empire will be a massive Canthan Expeditionary Fleet made of 52 ships near the coast of Tyria. Having recently defeated a Deep Sea Dragon’s Champion blocking their attempts to reestablish contact (thus explaining Cantha’s delay). The armada will be directed by the Xunlai and commanded by Hand of the Emperor. This will be the first sight of Cantha in more than two hundred years and it will set the tone for the state of the world outside. The Canthan flotilla will be composed of paddle-wheeler warships and commercial sail ships giving us a first glimpse of the technology present in Cantha. I’m aware that this goes against the idea of an isolationist Cantha. That’s because I’m against having an isolationist Cantha.

One of my main issues with the way that the world of Guild Wars is presented, is the self-contained nature of each of the continents. Tyria has been blocked for 100 years from the rest of the world, Cantha adopted a politic of isolationist 50 years after the events of Guild Wars and Elona was ravaged and conquered by an undead Lich. Each one of the continents is self-contained by design.

I believe that this approach to artificially containing each continent in its own little world not only makes the world feel less alive, but also produce all sorts of problems once we decide to venture beyond the shores of Orr. One of the bigger ones is that the technologies, skills, weapons, magic and ultimately professions developed in Tyria, might have not been developed in Cantha or Elona. Even fundamental gameplay elements such as the Asura Gates and Waypoints, even if one can doubt its existence in-universe, might be not present in the lands outside of Tyria. For this reason, I’d like to suggest to present a more dynamic world.

The Empires of Cantha and Elona have been free to explore the world on their own without Tyrian interference for a hundred years. Plenty of time for both nations to engage in opportunities of exploration, trade, war, expansionism and colonialism. Both nations are traditional sea powers and could have hundreds of overseas possessions by the time we reach them. I believe that having both Cantha and Elona isolated and frozen in time would go against Arenanet’s own ideas of avoiding an stagnant an unchanging world. The world outside shouldn’t be waiting for our interference, it should have changed on its own.

A more dynamic and expansionist Cantha, in particular, would not only solve the issue of stagnation, but would also solve the problem of technological development in every single future expansion. Canthan organizations like the Xunlai Guild could have spread technology across the four corners of the world. Another issue is that an isolationist Cantha would be 100% human-centered. While it could be possible play a campaign where all the characters were humans, I don’t think it would be compelling for anyone but the humans themselves.

For all this reasons, I suggest transforming the Cantha we know into a global Colonial Empire. The Canthan Empire will have expanded during a good part of the last century, virtually unopposed by anyone but Palawa Joko’s Empire and the Eldritch Deep Sea Dragon. The most obvious source of inspiration for this Canthan Empire would be the British Empire, which at its height was the largest empire in history, with one quarter of Earth under its control and a total population of 458 million people, but other European powers could be used as well. Given that Cantha, especially, its capital, the city of Kaineng, was inspired by the former British colony of Hong Kong (Kowloon Walled City), it would be perfect to base the modern Cantha primarily around the British Empire and it would give a reason for non-human races to be hostile to Cantha, and also a better reason to go to Cantha other than following our spirit of adventure.

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Personal History

As with the main campaign, the player would be presented with some question before or at the start of the story. These questions will determine which mindset you have more affinity to (Romanticism/Enlightenment) and will be reflected in the interaction with other characters and unlock some particular branches of the storyline otherwise unavailable to your character. For example, for Tengu and Humans, you will be asked if your ancestors came from Cantha allowing the chance to either re-encounter your relatives renaming in Cantha (might be interesting if they work for the Ministry) or honoring your forefathers.

Because the story is at its core one a conflict between Enlightenment vs Romanticism, the characters in Cantha will fall in a sliding scale between the two views of the world. Some characters might present different attributes from, or be seen under, the two divergent movements. Typically characters from Enlightenment tend to believe in society, the good of the many over the few, order, science, modernity, and progress, while characters from Romanticism tend to be outcast, often very flawed (Byronic Hero), nostalgic over mythical pasts or nature, individualistic and introspective heroes (more than once self-destructive).

I suggest having a much smaller stock of characters that will be present throughout the entire storyline. The reason for this is because I believe that while some characters from Tyria were compelling, most of them were very lightly developed and the story, with some exceptions, presented very few opportunities to form long-lasting attachments with any of them. I would even say to bring back some characters from the first two arc of Zhaitan’s storyline from the original campaign, such as the Warband you formed as a Charr, to be developed further, even if the story will not be about them.

Occasionally the player will take control of other characters other than his own, even villains to make their actions more poignant. This would serve as a more natural form of explaining the story in places where the main character couldn’t hope to be present. Choices will be fewer but will have a bigger impact in the events taking place in the story and the consequences of your actions will not be seen until much later in the storyline. There will be multiple antagonist and hostile characters in the storyline with their own agendas, but very few of them should be outright villains. The story will follow a series of factions, at least three for maximum opportunities for twist and turns, each one with its own separated agendas colliding and becoming more or less radical in motives and actions as the story advances.

One of the most important characters and one of the biggest players in the plot I’d like to suggest, would be The Hand of the Emperor: A Napoleon-like character, Grand admiral of the Canthan Imperial Navy, Hero of the Empire against the Deep Sea Dragon and Palawa Joko’s undead Fleets, one of the best administrative and military minds in history. The Hand of the Emperor will be a reformist and modernizing figure, popular among the masses for ending the excesses of the previous administration and for his reforms and efforts to improves the lives of the average Kaineng and Canthan citizens. He will be one of the most influential and central parts of the story to the point that he might slowly become one of the main antagonist as his and our own agenda diverge and he rises to absolute power in his seek to eliminate the Deep Sea Dragon once and for all. Regardless of that, I suggest presenting him with many heroic attributes typical of a worthy opponent with him being presented as a counterpart to the player character and a hero of its own history, like the rest of the cast. (I consider the Deep Sea Dragon to be the one most likely to represent a threat to a naval nation such as Cantha. But in practice any Dragon could do the job because I think the Dragon should be represented more as a force and a reason for the characters in Cantha to act.)

Other characters I suggest would be:

  • A non-human (Largos or Tengu) admiral, yes admiral, pirate from the Crimson Skull inspired by the real female Chinese pirate Ching Shih, one of the most successful pirates ever (at her height she commanded 1.800 ship and more than 8.000 pirates challenging both the British Empire, the Qing dynasty) and one of the only ones who retired, were pardoned and died of old age.
  • A one-eyed Naga prince exiled by his own people, “Moby-Dick complex” and enemy of the Xunlai, who now wants to reclaim his rightful place.
  • And finally an abolitionist from the Obsidian Flame who wishes to end the bad treatment of the Empire towards no-humans.

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Setting the Stage

Guild Wars Fans who played Winds of Change know about the rise of the ultra-nationalist Ministry of Purity which foreshadowed Usoku’s reign 50 years later. Under his iron fist rule, united the Canthan Empire, conquered the unruly vassal nations of the Kurzicks and the Luxons, and expelled all non-humans from the continent. This has lead to speculation that modern Cantha will be inspired by Japan’s isolationist period under the rule of the Tokugawa Shogunate. However, I argue that this resemblance is only superficial.

There is no such thing as a Samurai class in Cantha. The Canthan Empire is a centralized nation controlled by the Emperor with the aid the massive bureaucracy of the Celestial Ministry. The Ministry of Purity was a populist movement seeking to restore the old glories of the Empire, not to empower a new generation of nobles. By contrast, it is the Tengu the ones who seem to be following the Bushido cliches, with their emphasis on honor and refusal to let anyone inside their walls. In this sense the Tengu are closer to Tokugawa’s Japan.

In my opinion Cantha should be characterized as the foil of the Tengu race, even if the Tengu are introduced way before we set foot on Cantha. If the Tengu are isolationist, the Canthans will be expansionist. If the Canthans have an urban culture, the Tengu will be close to nature and feudal. If the Tengu are honorable and “spiritual”, Canthans will want nothing but material goods and profit.

To represent this contrast better between these two different world views, I suggest basing modern Canthan Empire primarily on the European Empires of the 18th and the 19th centuries, in particular the Napoleonic period, instead of feudal Japan or ancient China. The reason for this is because I believe that a Cantha heavily influenced by this period would represent not only the High Elves tropes much better, but also make the antagonism between the Tengu and Cantha stronger. In fact, the option of characterizing Cantha as a modern state might be even more attractive to those who wish to see the Fall of the Samurai themes played in the Canthan storyline, which was in effect industrialization, modernity and technology making obsolete and ultimately ending the old Samurai world. In fact, I would say that a significant portion of the Samurai tales in fiction are set during their decline and modernization of Japan, during the Meiji era. The key word is Modernity. Examples in China, such as Shangai, often called the Paris of the East, and elsewhere could serve as an inspiration for modern Kaineng.

I suggest making Cantha’s storyline one of Romanticism versus Enlightenment. The Enlightenment movement appeared during the 17th and 18th centuries in Europe-in particular France and England- as part of an intellectual movement that believed that science and rationalism would improve the world and make the world of tomorrow better. This age of optimism and idealism for science and human progress was called the Age of Reason. Eventually the Romanticism movements rose as a backlash. They believed that Enlightenment was creating a totalitarian, conformist and dystopian world. They believed that science and reason could never hope to understand the world or human nature.

While both movements are no longer around in their original form, the ideas behind them survive today. Romanticism and Enlightened themes are common in fiction.

  • Mother nature vs Father science.
  • Harmony vs Discipline.
  • Emotion vs Stoicism.
  • Utopia vs Dystopia.
  • Wagner vs Mozart.
  • Gothic vs Neoclassicism.
  • Apollo vs Dionysus.

The Canthan Empire is the perfect place to explore these themes. Both mindsets should be represented not only in the way of life of Cantha but also the non-humanoid races who oppose them. Canthans following Enlightenment should believe that they are the message of civilization, the beacon of light that the world should follow as the European Colonial powers saw themselves. Non-humanoid races contrary to the Empire, would see these as lies by a selfish, imperialistic and xenophobic empire who see everyone else as inferior and want to destroy their culture, way of life, nature and lands.

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Introduction

Greetings. As you might know, the Canthan continent is an Asian-themed Human Empire located on the far east of Tyria. It is the oldest known human nation which existed even before the rest of the humans began to appear on the northern continents of Tyria and Elona. For nearly 200 years we have known very little of Cantha, first due the isolationist policies of the last known Emperor, Usoku, and in the last hundred years as the result of the Elder Dragon Zhaitan blocking Tyria from the outside world.

The continent remains a popular subject of speculation and ideas for future campaigns. The Tengu, possibly the strongest candidate for a future race, was exiled from this land. While there are many possibilities of other expansions, I remain confident that we will visit Cantha again some day in the future.

For this reason, I have prepared a series of proposal that could be interesting for a potential expansion set on the Canthan continent in the following days. Some of these suggestion, the gameplay ones in particular, might be used for other expansions as well. I only hope that some of these ideas might prove useful for inspiration for the future expansions.

The Last Human Empire.

Besides seeing Canthan sailors being sporadically washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles, the people of Tyria have remained almost completely ignorant of the events beyond the cursed land of Orr. Zhaitan’s undead fleets have prevented the races of Tyria from communicating with the outside world for a hundred years.

Mankind’s role in Guild Wars is often compared to the ones of the elves in other settings. An powerful old race, almost divine, that once ruled the world and now are on full retreat with most of their old glories being nothing but a memory. A very classic and refined aesthetic in everything they make, from architecture to crafting weapons. Often too traditional for modern technology compared to the Charr, and in possession of a much more traditional portrait of magic than the likes of the Asura. Often this comes from being an “un-fallen” race in the eyes of the gods. Besides the characteristic pointy ears and immortality, humanity in Guild Wars conform to virtually all the aspects of most elves in fiction.

Going back to Cantha, the Canthan Empire is the biggest human nation in the world. The oldest known human nation in history, with the Empire having existed for more than 300 years before humans on the continents of Tyria and Elona even appeared. Ruled by an unbroken dynasty of Emperors since its formation, and blessed by the stars as Weh no Su since the gods left the world. Although full of decay and ruined as result of Shiro’s Curse in the original Guild Wars: Factions, their capital is a massive megalopolis, as big as the whole old nation of Ascalon, the city of Kaineng easily dwarfs all the cities of the world put together. Cantha was by far the most urbanized and probably the most advanced culture of the original Guild Wars.

Besides the chosen nation of Orr, no nation comes as close to the level of influence and lasting power in Tyria’s history. The Xunlai Guild dominated the financial and banking system of Guild Wars and for centuries the Empire traded with the northern kingdoms in Tyria prior to the isolationist period of Emperor Hanjai’s successor. The Zaishen Order controlled the main access to the Myst, to The Hall of Heroes (Gw1 PvP). Whereas other, once great ancient nations, suffered defeat and became extinct – Orr being sunk under the sea and the Elona dynasty broken and fragmented into independent provinces- the Canthan Empire survived even in the face of almost annihilation by Shiro Tagachi and still remained powerful.

It is for these reasons that I believe that Canthans in Guild Wars 2 should be characterized as the High Elves of Guild Wars 2, or at least believe themselves to be such, the Imperialist version of the High Elves. Xenophobic, arrogant, proud of its history and position, dominant and tremendously powerful. Given what we know about what happened 200 years ago in Cantha under the last known Emperor, Usoku, and the xenophobic Ministry of Purity, it is more than likely they do so. (The Orrians might have had a stronger case to be called High Elves once, as the chosen ones of the gods, when they were alive, but all of them are dead now).

While it’s unlikely to see a full human continent. It is likely that any future Guild Wars 2 campaign will be pretty human-centered one with humans being the dominant species in the campaign and the plot mostly revolving around them. The Canthan campaign is also a pretty strong candidate to explore the origin of mankind and its place in the world of Guild Wars 2. Even more if we expand beyond the original Guild Wars: Faction borders if we take into account that the first humans came from somewhere south of the Canthan continent.

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Legion.4198

Technically speaking the Tengu should also fall within this supposedly No-Asia ban. Tengu are obviously based on the Japanese mythical creatures with the same name. So, No Cantha, No Tengu.

Cantha in future expansions?

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

@Gregorius.1024

I disagree. Technology being developed outside of Tyria is imperative. This is not an issue of what Cantha or Elona realistically could do. No society could ever make a city out of science fiction as massive as Kaineng without an army of robots. People will want to see a Canthan Rifle, people will want to use Elonian Skills for the Engineer. With the introduction of the Asura system of travel and technological-minded professions like the Engineer there must be technology advances. It would go againts the idea of avoiding an stagnant world. This doesn’t mean they should follow the same steampunk path.

Also if Cantha or Elona are going to be the enemy, then either they will be on the same level as the Pact or the Pact will be dissolved/neutralized before we meet new foes. The advances of the Pact cause a serious problem of escalation and honestly I’d rather have the nations of Tyria take the initiative this time instead of the Pact (which I’ve never liked it).

Cantha in future expansions?

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Legion.4198

The Song Chinese Dynasty (960–1279) almost achieved the Industrial Revolution. The main reason why they didn’t is because Coal in China was not as accessible as in Britain (really the main reason why Europe industrialized first was cheaper coal). The forges of the Song Dynasty produced more steel than the British Empire during the entire 19th century. The Song were also the first to introduce paper money.

While it would be a mistake to Characterize Cantha as yet another Steam punk Society, they could follow another technological path. Humans seem to be more consumer-based than the Charr and thus it is likely that Humans would follow the real life version of industrialization. More centered around consumer products and less focused in military ones. The city is perfect for a Dickensian tales under a regime following the Legalist Philosophy.

Since China is know for her contribution with the compass and magnetism, they might develop technologies related to electricity (both phenomenons are related). Tesla Turrets could be one of the new skills for the Engineer. Artificial lighting was know since the early 19th century, in the form of the arch lamp, but there was no power source capable of generating enough energy at constant rate. However, in a world like Tyria there might be a material with a stronger natural magnetism, as evidenced by the Engineer’s Shield, than anything the Real World; thus be able to generate electricity with a much less sophisticated generator. Electricity might be also invented by Elona following the Frankenstein’s tropes related to the undead but I believe that of the two, Elona will be more magic-centered.

So.. we have airships now.

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Legion.4198

If not, there’s a possibility you could use a similar trick to reach Cantha. Might not be the most practical method, of course; it doesn’t help that you probably don’t know where you’ll end up.

I hope not. The Asura have become nothing but plot devices generators suited to handwave everything because we don’t know the power necessities, range and limits of their tech. They are for all purposes the “Lethal Joke Race”. At this point everything strange in Guild Wars 2 can be solved by saying “An Asura did it”.

So.. we have airships now.

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Legion.4198

I guess that the ones producing hydrogen/helium are the humans. The Charr have shown no signs of chemical industry characteristic of the 2nd Industrial Revolution (which would explain their lack of high-powered explosives). That or they are glorified Hot air balloon.

i want to be evil

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

That’s not a problem. Players can belong to multiple organizations. The only problem with my proposal is that your character should be at very least a psychopath with perfect skills to fake emotions and lie. A potential group would be a more sneaky Am fah.

Charr vs Human vs Asura vs Norn

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

The Asura are the opposite. The Asura has a superior advantage in terms of transport and long range supply but their production is inferior to the Charr. Still, the usefulness of the Asuran gates for combat is debatable since it seems that there is some kind of catch. Otherwise nobody would use anything but Asura gates. It could be as simple as energy requirements that made transportation of big goods prohibitively expensive. Even so, without counting the Asuran gates, the Asura have still the advantage over the Charr in terms of transportation thanks to their port and could still use the Asuran Gates for Special Forces. Unlike the Charr, the Asura have a well developed port next to their capital city. Sea transport is significantly cheaper than doing overland, it cost just a fraction and is faster than doing it by land.

The main weakness of the Asura is production. The Asura show no sings of industrialization, they are a nation of craftsmen, each golem seems to be handcrafted and every invention is unique. This means that the Asura have a significant disadvantage in production. This is also affect the ability to maintain their own armies, by having multiple, often unique models, they needlessly over-complicate their logistical needs. This is one reason the US military is considered among the most powerful. To compensate for their chronic logistical disadvantage of having to use troops thousands of kilometers away from their core territory, the US armed forces demand a constant simplification of logistics, there is only one fuel. Almost everything the US fields, from camp stoves to Humvees to helicopters, runs on JP-8 fuel, which is compatible with diesel engines. By the same token, the US tries to field as many weapons as possible that rely on the same types of ammunition, and use as many of the same pieces of equipment between the services as possible.

This is where the Asuran advantage of invention also becomes they biggest weakness. The well-proven Soviet T-34 proved to be superior to the needlessly complicated German tanks, which kept getting pointless upgrades, hampering the ability of the Germans to field enough armored forces while the T-34 was upgrades as it was necessary. Constantly diverging funds for the secret ultimate weapons is the way towards defeat. Sophisticated technology demands significant diversions of manpower from ground-combat operations. Maintaining a helicopter requires dozens of ground-crew personnel. This affects both armies but more the Asura due their poor production capabilities compared to the Charr. In short, the Asura has the advantage of being in a better position in terms of transport, but the Charr have a superior philosophy for production and are only hampered by their strategic position.

There’s also the question about who would be a better strategist. This is more murky, but I think the Charr thanks to their experience, pragmatism and focus on war. The Asura would be probably vulnerable to over-planning. No battle plan survives contact with the enemy, and the Asura seems more than capable of making that mistake. The Asuran inventions are a wild card but they can’t be definitive for victory (unless they develop a WMD).

Charr vs Human vs Asura vs Norn

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Legion.4198

I will repost, what I thought about this in another forum.

Logistics is the single most important element in modern warfare. Above strategy, above tactics, Logistics often determine the victory or the defeat in modern war. In the past ages, armies could maintain themselves thanks to pillage, but as armies became bigger and more sophisticated, logistic became more and more decisive to victory. “An army marches on its own stomach” as Napoleon said. This is why Scorched Earth and Strategic depth works so well for Russia.

The Charr have a superior advantage in terms of production due their industrialization but a serious disadvantage in transport due distances involved and, lack of sea access. The Charr seems to have evolved to attrition warfare due the needs hold the line against the ghost armies. In fact, I argue that this menace is what pushed the Iron Legion towards industrialization (in form of state planned economy). The Blood Legion is even more infamous for the “Human Wave” attitude thanks to controlling the breadbasket of the Charr nation which allows them to deploy bigger armies than their rivals. The Charr are in better position than the Asura in terms of production thanks to their industrialized society which allows them to produce more supplies and weapons for their troops and frees manpower necessary for production.

The main weakness of the Charr would be transportation. The Shiverpeaks block all the main routes to the rest of the continent. This means that the Charr would have to move all the armies and war-machines (and support them beyond) throughout mountainous terrain. If the Charr weren’t able to conquer Ebonhawke, a mountain fortress over 250 years, they won’t be able to do the same without the support of the Humans and the Norn. There are only a few safe routes and all of them would be vulnerable to ambushes. The Shiverpeaks is a fortress. A wall that has contained, isolated and stopped the Charr from conquering any more land to the West of Tyria. Some people have suggested the existence of Airships and Helicopters could solve the issue, but air transport is simple not enough, especially when they wouldn’t be able to transport the most heavy war-machines and cannons by air and. In any case Airships are invented by the Pact during the storyline.

Charr vs Human vs Asura vs Norn

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Legion.4198

The Elder Dragons would win.

i want to be evil

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

The only way I can see being “evil” in Gw2 would work, would be to be part of an Illuminati-like secret cult society (with its own storyline) with the rest of the world being unaware that you are part of them.

So.. we have airships now.

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Legion.4198

I would rather have Cantha and Elona coming at us and reestablishing contact themselves instead of the reverse. Both empires have been able to access to the rest of the world untouched for more than a hundred years and interact with each other. Naval long-range sea travel technologies are more likely to be developed by Cantha and Elona and building Blue Water navies than a completely isolated continent such as Tyria.

Certain technologies are necessary for safe navigation away from the coast. The most well known of these technologies, the compass, will be likely to be invented by Canthans/Elonians. Sure, one can guide their ship thanks to the constellations in the sky but they are not always available. Once you move to the southern hemisphere the sky changes completely. Even a small error can send you hundreds of kilometers away from your destination and cause your death by starvation or pirates. That’s also a reason to develop extremely precise clockwork technologies for navigation. Knowledge about weather is also fundamental. All these technologies could provide the basic ground for various Engineer skills for the Canthan and Elona expansions.

There’s also the issue that Villains often are the ones who make the plot. Villains act, heroes react. I’ve always had issues with the self-contained nature of Guild Wars. The GW writers seems to like to build each continent and even areas, completely separated from the rest. Even in Tyria, we have examples like the Shiverpeaks separating the Charr from the rest of the continent, thus preventing a major widespread of their technologies and making any Charr expansion to the West unlikely and difficult at best. While this was understandable in GW1 since the world was still under development, I think GW would benefit itself if there was a stronger interaction with competing overseas empires. This doesn’t necessarily mean peaceful interaction, Elona and Cantha could be under a Cold War.

Breeding rates of GW2 species?

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

Charr doesn’t need agriculture. Plenty of references to cow herds, and I imagine they also have sheep and other grazing animals. Animals can graze in a wasteland like Ascalon as even under the worst circumstances, some plants adapt and start growing there. This means the production is localized instead of distant.

But they can’t match the same food surplus as the one generated by agriculture. That’s the point. Agriculture is just much more efficient and can supply far more food. Finally, if they want to truly grow and advance, they will need agriculture to produce food for their cattle at industrial scale. The more urbanized and industrialized the Charr become, the more vulnerable they will be to starvation unless they change their current model. Herding is just not good enough. In fact, in the Real World, there was a real fear that the Industrial Revolution would create massive famines before artificial fertilizers and mechanized agriculture were invented.

Breeding rates of GW2 species?

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

Because the Charr are a carnivorous race, and without considering the additional nutriens required for a race of their size, and the possibility of different metabolism, their ecosystem can only support half of what an omnivorous race such as the humans could support. This is compensated by having more land than everyone else. However, they have to compete and share it with other species.

The number one challange to the Charr, as it is for the Mongols and Russian Empires, is transportation. The Charr Khanate is an extensive landlocked landmass with no options for fluvial or sea transport to send their goods cheaply and easy within the country. Their main breadbasked, the Blood Legions homeland, is located far to the north, probably resulting in shorter growing seasons, compared to those of the latitude of Ascalon and Kryta. Getting food from distant sources and mantaining the massive infrastructure is difficult incredible expensive, especially when there’s no hint, as far I am aware, of the existence of refrigerators and trains. A chronic problem for Russia as it would be for the Charr. The Charr can produce enough food to feed themselves, but they can’t transport all the food all over their Empire before the meat spoils or risking the travel to far away population centers. The Charr would probably still outnumber any of the races due the size of their territory, but their population would be dispersed.

The Asura faces a different problem. Jungle terrain is among the worst for agriculture production. The soil is too acid and poor in nutriens for most crops. Thus nations living in tropical areas are often forced to use artificial fertilizers or even terraforming the land even for the most basic crops. Because there’s no evidence of an advanced Chemical Industry, I would assume this is not even an option. Hoewever, because the Asura are a formerly subterranean race, and due their smaller stature, they might have less nutritional needs than other races. Grain is not their main source of nutrition, for example.

Kryta is Tyria’s breadbasket. With a template climate and probably the most fertile area in the entire continent, this area is perfect for agriculture. The humans are well-versed in it and use this to their advantage with extensive fields all over Kryta. This allows the humans to have a sizable superplus of food compared to other races and thus more population over the same area.

So now that the event is finished...

in The Lost Shores

Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

It will explode like the Krakatoa ruining everyone’s lives! Around 13,000 times the Hiroshima bomb more or less. Now seriously, it could be used as a platform for future expansions.

Southsun Cove: Where did it come from?

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

It’s seems a volcanic island. The island could have been formed way afterward GW1. There’s an obvious crazy Sylvari who has been trapped for a long time.

The Dredge...

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

There are no Samurais in Cantha. I don’t understand the obsession with making Cantha a Japanese ripoff when Tyrias has clearly not followed our historical path with the Mongols/Russia beings the pioneers of industrialization. The Tengu already fill the Samurai niche.

Second, a full human campaign is unlikely. Therefore, either Cantha will have relaxed its position, they will have the other races as slaves or the map will take us beyond the Canthan borders.

The Lost Shores

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Legion.4198

Well, there’s the symbol of the Xunlai Guild in the house: Two Dragons facing each other. Maybe we will finally meet Hao Leun the leader of the Xunlai Banking Guild remaining in Tyria.

Who's Kuunavang's elder dragon?

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Legion.4198

It is clear that the Saltpray Dragons have supernatural powers similar to the Djinn. Their celestial power is able to manipulate the luck/causality and grant immortality to those they see fit. Maybe they are the ones who guided the old Canthans to the world before the rest of humanity even began to appear in Elona and Tyria. The Canthan believe in the Eternal Paradise (and maybe the Tengu believe in the Sky above the Sky) could be a memory from their original world. Of course this is just an hypothesis.

Tengu discussion

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Legion.4198

Narcemus.1348

That’s something that ArenaNet themselves will have to decide.

In a way, we have already decided it for them. The Tengu are the most popular non-playable race, there’s a substantial demand for them and they are the most obvious choice for them in a future expansion along with the Largos. The Tengu even has their own homeland ready. Minor races like the Skritt, Ogres and anyone in the “racial sympathy list” will never become playable.

The Tengu players (and really any new race) will probably act individually for the main campaign. I don’t think Arenanet will retcon the Tengu being anything but isolationist during the main campaign. After that, anything goes, but I doubt they will rework all the world to reflect that Zhaitan is gone. Instead, I expect to see the only those who bought the expansions will be the only allowed to enter the Dominion of the Winds (perhaps as an invitation from the Tengu Emperor, Shogun…).

Then, there’s the question about what happens within its walls. Do we assume that all events within the Dominion of the Winds take place after or before Zhaitan is gone? If it happens afterwards, that means that Tengu players will already know the ending of the main campaign. Not that it is a big surprise Zhaitan dies at the end, but it is still a spoiler for new players who might decide to pick Gw2 along the expansions and chose the Tengu or any non-vanilla race right away.

If they ever reintroduce Cantha, and I’m pretty sure they will do it eventually, I expect them to be characterized as the foil of the Tengu race, and maybe even Kryta’s foil. If the Tengu are isolationist, the Canthans will be expansionist. If the Canthans have an urban culture (megacity really), the Tengu will be close to nature. If the Tengu are honorable and “spiritual”, the Canthans will want nothing but material goods and profit.

I don’t think we will go all overdrive on getting rid of the Elder Dragons. Nothing so far about the ED makes them interesting enough to justify a whole new campaign centered around them. Perhaps as background for other developments, like justifying the actions of a new antagonist or something similar, but I don’t think they will ever get the kind of spotlight that Zhaitan received during the main campaign for a long time.

The Dredge...

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

Their strategic position resembles more Yugoslavia. It would make more sense to use Balkan references than Russian ones given where they live but whatever. The Charr lands, Old Ascalon and beyond resemble far more Russia strategic position than the caricatures of the Drege could ever hope. It is a pity because they are the most industrialized race after the Charr (The Dredge has shown to be more advanced in some fields) and yet they are a treated just as mooks to kill for the Norn heroes and a joke.

It’s interesting how the only truly industrialized nations are also the ones least likely to engage in trade, considering their relative isolation from the other civilized nations on the continent (Kryta and Rata Sum). It seems that the Industrial Revolution in Gw has followed a very different path, even backwards in the case of the Dredge, compared to our world.

Cantha, the lost continent. "Grow their legend, make yours." S2 Sensaali Oracle

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Legion.4198

As things stand, there’s no interest in the storyline to go there – Tyria still has their own threats and worries, so the only reason why the Commander of the Pact (that’s us) will go to another land is if there’s another, brand new, threat which would require pushing through the deep sea dragon’s domain.

Only because you can’t thing of anything. Let’s be honest, Cantha became isolationist, and Elona was conquered by Palawa Joko, only because Arenanet wanted to world isolated in packages preventing Tyria from getting any help against Zhaitan. By doing this, Arenanet has avoided nations like Lion’s Arch, the Asura or even Kryta from following the steps of the Age of Exploration and Colonization. However, this has not been the case for Cantha and Elona for 100 years (50 if you think DSD has destroyed any chance of naval travel).

The races of Tyria have become backwards and underdeveloped on the fields of naval navigation. Technologies that will no doubt be developed by Elona and Cantha, and there’s a lot of them: sextants, compasses, navigational charts, meteorological charts, compasses, maritime chronometers etc. If Arenanet wants us to destroy the DSD, we will need to develop technologies that have not been developed for over 100 years but could have been developed by Elona and Cantha. The Pact might also be bogged down fighting against Jormag or Primordous and send us overseas in a diplomatic mission to restablish links with Cantha, Elona and beyond under the hope to get new allies, restablish trade routes and discover new weapons against the Dragons. From there Arenanet can develop the history they wish and create new menaces and antagonists as they see fit.

While I will never consider the waypoints anything but a gameplay element until I see one in the storyline, it is also logical to conclude that Elona and Cantha will have them, plus at least one Asura Gate. These could be either reversed-engineered or instead sold by an asuran interested in the new open markets for teleporting-devices. The Asura would be interested in either know how these Gates were developed or expanding their monopoly over teleporting devices. Even if Cantha and Elona are hostile, there’s certainly no shortage of evil or short sighted Asura (without counting the Inquest) that would gladly sell Asura devices to Cantha or Palawa Joko regardless of the consequences.

Because there’s a need for new technological skills, especially for the case of the Engineer and the presence of modern firearms, there’s an Imperative need for technological and magical developments outside the continent. One of the new skills I suspect Arenanet might introduce is Tesla weapons such as Tesla Turrets and Tesla weapon kits. While I doubt any nation beyond Tyria, will outpace the charr in the steampunk themes, they might invent things that the Charr have failed to consider due their excessive focus on military developments and heavy industry. Practical electricity in form of telegraphy, vaccines, canned food and other “civil” technologies that reduce logistic constraints and facilitate long-range communications would be more than interesting to the Charr.

Cantha, the lost continent. "Grow their legend, make yours." S2 Sensaali Oracle

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Legion.4198

You are just unimaginative. The only thing necessary for revisiting the Empire is a Canthan Explorer (maybe a Canthan Prince) inviting us to Cantha (secretly as a gift to the Emperor for his success in reaching the continent of Tyria). We know that Canthan ships are more than capable of reaching Tyria, even with the DSD in the middle. If there’s a problem with the Ministry of Purity, the Emperor (or one of his sons/daughters) can always grant us full diplomatic rights, political immunity and courtesy while we stay in Central Kaineng.

From there Arenantet can create the story they want. There’s no shortage of revolutions, dynastic crisis, social conflicts and conspiracies that might arise in an Empire such as Cantha without even counting supernatural events. Whatever the case, Kaineng should still exist even if has been reformed and looks nothing like the original. The city is what makes Cantha unique.

Plus, establishing trade with Cantha would produce a gigantic economic bomb to Western Tyria which would make the current economy of Rata Sum, Lion’s Arch and Kryta looks like the Dark Ages by comparison.

Falcon Company?

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Legion.4198

She used to appear in one of the rooms in the home instance during the betas (albeit the time I find her she was bugged). The Home instance feels really unfinished. NPC from the storyline might appear in it, but they have no dialogue and just stand around. In the case of the buildings that should be destroyed, they are miraculous intact afterwards. There’s also no reason to comming back.

Anyway, your sister would also need need new clothes (probably a Seraph uniform) and maybe it would be better if she appeared in the Seraph headquarters.

What Elder Dragons represent

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Legion.4198

I find difficult to believe that Arenanet will make the extermination of these monsters nothing but pest control when they were hyped to be global extinction level event. I agree that making the central point of the storyline would be as boring, but I think it would be a mistake to downplay their threat or impact in the world. Even if we move on to new threats, I think the dragons should be left as the background and perhaps the basic motivation for the future antagonists.

The Pact advances also cause a serious problem of escalation for any threat less menacing than a Dragon. If we face Palawa Joko or the Canthan Empire as enemies, then they will need to be even more powerful and technological or magical advanced than the Pact or even the ED. I doubt the Pact won’t follow us as the second in command, unless it is dissolved o gets bogged down/crushed by one or more of the Dragons.

What Elder Dragons represent

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Legion.4198

If that is the case, then Kralkatorrik will be captured by Palawa Joko, or Palawa Joko would be one of his minions. Why? Because it would be boring to deal with undead all over again right after defeating Zhaitan. Palawa Joko could have discovered a way to enslave the wounded monster with a similar spell used to liberate Glint.

The dragons won’t be deal that quickly unless there’s a long, long, time between each update and fighting yet another Orr will become boring by the end. Worse if we defeat them all at once before the “ending of Gw2” because then they would like just as a pale excuse to keep Tyria isolated from the rest of the world. I would find more likely to see the dragons teaming-up and crushing Tyria, leaving us with no other choice but to run away and seek refuge beyond the continent of Tyria.

Power of the playable races?

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Legion.4198

Magic is not an strategic advantage if it is slower than conventional sailing. Steampower ships was a tactical advantage, not an strategic one, at first, because they required constant supply of coal. Most ships used sails and engines according to the situation. The problem is that we don’t know how good is this form of magic.

The second issue is detection and coordination. Most Risen are relatively simple-minded. If you follow the Order of Whisper’s plan during the latter part of the storyline, you can even lure and capture a significant part of Zhaitan’s fleet by just sabotaging one of the beacon torch lighthouse that Zhaitan uses to guide its ships. Even after capturing it and using these ships to bombard the positions of Risen, Zhaitan doesn’t react until one of the Eyes appears. This reveal a significant weakness in the ability of Zhaitan to control its forces. More importantly, it proves that Zhaitans minions don’t work by a hivemind, but through agents like the Eyes, Champions and other special creatures.

It is possible that Zhaitan just hasn’t bothered in stopping sea commerce between Rata Sum and Lion’s Arch too much. Zhaitan has tried to destroy Claw Island and conquer Lion’s Arch on multiple occasions. Perhaps, Zhaitan is competing or even fighting with Bubbles and Palawa Joko at the same time, but there’s no way to prove it. Of course, Zhaitan could be very well be the weakest of the dragons. Regardless of the case, and despite all the dangers posed by the Risen, sea trade is still good enough to justify a merchant fleet and the presence of asura gates.

Rata Sum looks like to be de facto city-state surrounded by laboratories. As an advanced society, the asura should have large needs for food (their smaller stature could diminish these needs). Yet, I don’t remember farms or anything in the the entire Metrica Province. Jungles is the most difficult territory to adapt for human economic activity. The soil of the jungle is poor, too low in nutrients and too acid for most kind of serious agriculture. The only way to exploit the jungles is through the use of artificial fertilizers or literally terraforming. Unless the Asura (as a former subterranean race) have a different nutritional needs, they would need to import food from outside their territory. The most fertile region in Tyria and biggest producer of agricultural goods is probably the Kingdom of Kryta. Only the Charr lands ruled by the Blood Legion could compete, and these lands probably have much shorter seasons.

PD: By the way, is it me or the Seraph don’t use riflemen? The Ministry of Purity use them, human militias use them, even the bandits use them (they even have canons) yet the Seraph don’t. In one of the books, the Seraph have rifleman, but not ingame. Is it to show that humans are conservatives, a case of mismanagement, to help people who don’t like guns find a comfortable home or just because there was enough with two kinds of Seraph?

Now, I say ‘conventional’, because between the asura and charr one could probably make a battleship (and yes, I think it would be at the stage where ‘battleship’ is more accurate than ‘ship of the line’) that’s perfectly capable of fighting underwater foes.

Well, the Charr have completed a prototype submarine. Does that count?

I doubt they can stay for long without having invented electrical engines (unless the Pact have invented it). Traditional steampower doesn’t work underwater (you need a nuclear reactor). The Charr don’t even has access to the sea as far as we know. It is possible that Fort Trinity used to be one of their ports before Kralkatorrik destroyed the only route with the Dragonbrand.

However, naval mine technology seems to exist (evidenced by pirates using them). Maybe the main routes of trade are protected by a ring of naval mines that prevents Zhaitan’s fleets from coming close.

Power of the playable races?

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Legion.4198

There’s a pretty big and busy port full of massive cargo ships in Rata Sum. These ships bring everything that the Asura can’t or don’t bother to create in their capital. They even accept stolen goods from pirates so long they behave themselves. This means that sea trade is alive and well. So there must be fatal flaw when it comes to transport goods, or certain goods , through the Asura Gates. On the other hand, I suspect that Lion’s Arch (and most cities) are canonically bigger than what we see ingame for a simple matter of resources.

A wooden ship of the line is pretty much helpless against an enemy which has an effective submarine force, which Zhaitan does.

Zhaitan fleet is more a submersible fleet than a real submarine force with the exception of the undead sharks. In any case, given the state of disrepair of most Zhaitan fleets, it is likely that they are much slower than properly maintained ships.

While it is unlikely that the Dredge will share with us their sonic technology to use sonar, some devices made with asuran or human magic could do the job. After all, a ship is a good inversion to at least include some magical defense.

Some offensive weapons could be eventually developed against submarine forces but I doubt we will use them until we meet Bubbles or a civilization fighting against it. These include torpedoes (already exist), depth charges and naval mines.

Power of the playable races?

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Legion.4198

Either the Asura or the Humans should be among the wealthies nations, not because there’s something special about their genes, but because they have access or are near the sea. Shipping goods via water is an order of magnitude cheaper than shipping them via land. Typically, it’s worth is 10 times cheaper than overland. This simple fact makes countries with robust maritime transport options extremely capital-rich when compared to countries limited to land-only options.

The Charr, on the other hand, are severly limited because they are almost isolated from the rest of the continent due the presence of the Shiverpeaks mountains. That means that the Charr can trade only with themselves and the Norn without using the Asura Gate. They seems more in favor of Planned Economy or State Capitalism at best and their only advantage is the industrialized Iron Legion, but even then, I have doubts they are much interested outside military war-machines.

Sure, we can argue that the asura gate solve the issue, but if that is the case, why people still bother with naval ships, caravans and so on? In fact, I recall hearing that using an asura gate is very expensive.

Kuunavang and "Bubbles" and Dragons

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

Strawman argument. The distance between London and Paris is 211 hundred miles. This is not uncommon among writers. Few writers have notions of geography and numbers are less important. A lot of writers went to study literature because they were just horrible at mathematics and chose this job to never see a number again. J. K. Rowling for example, is notorious for this and herself admits it. Even scifi writers are vulnerable to this since most writers just don’t have a real sense of scale. These numbers are just there to provide a feeling, not a realistic description of the world because few writers are equipped with all the necessary knowledge, or even time, to describe a realistic portrait of their settings in all the areas of economy, science, politics, technology, industry, weather, military, geography etc, etc, etc. Also, using modern miles in a fantasy settings is rather anachronistic.

(edited by Legion.4198)

Kuunavang and "Bubbles" and Dragons

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

I have learned to never trust distances provided by a writter of fiction, ever. If that is the real distance between Cantha and Tyria is a hundred-miles, the size of the entire world of Tyria is smaller than the continent of Europe. In fact, smaller than a country like France. Also take into account that the world of Gw was less defined in GW1 than we have today.

Why do ascalonian ghosts get cannons?

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

The Dwarvers invented gunpowder and the Canthans, or Luxons if you prefer, invented cannons. The Charr intro is an exaggeration, they didn’t even kill their “god”. Humans did it. It’s interesting to see that the Canthan invention of artillery spread out to the Tyrian continent before the Charr finally conquered Ascalon.

Kuunavang and "Bubbles" and Dragons

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Legion.4198

I find difficult to believe that the biggest trading fleet in the world for multiple generations, uninterrupted for centuries, before Shiro cursed the place and the grandchild of the Emperor cut all the trade, never had any problems with pirates for 600 years.

The reason why Istan is a naval power is not because of wood, it is because it is a strait. As a choke point for the trade between Elona, Cantha and Tyria, any city that control a strait can stop ships from going through it or more likely tax them. Sure, Elona was more in touch with Melandru than mainland Cantha during Gw1 (without considering the fact that Cantha had more overseas possessions like the Zaishen Islands) but that doesn’t matter anymore because today’s Elona ecosystem is dead. Also, considering that Elona is much closer to Tyria than Cantha, it should have been hit even harder by the Great Tsunami. Plus, Istan, being at such low sea-level, was probably swallowed by the sea.

The Cantha that we saw in Gw1 was just recovering from the catastrophe made by Shiro (also the whole Plague bussiness-thing during our visit) and even then it was a Canthan organization, The Xunlai Guild, not an Elonian one, not a Krytan one, the one with financial superiority. With Echovald Forest recovering, the Canthan Empire will have more and more wood at its disposal. Besides that, you are ignoring the fact that his gargantuan city was build with the Echovald Forest already turned into stone and with all trade with the exterior closed, so it is likely that Cantha has more sources of wood. I can also see a good portion of Kaineng being remodeled by the Ministry of Purity in its own image.

There will be a Canthan expansion. There is a fair amount of people who like the Asian setting and want to see it again. The fans of the Tengu will demand it and the people who like the Tengu is because they like the Japanese flavor, not the Aztec one.

(edited by Legion.4198)

Kuunavang and "Bubbles" and Dragons

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

Cantha is in the Southern Hemisphere, far from Tyria. Their capability to reach the northern lands easily proves that Cantha already had a capable navy back then. The technological status of the northern kingdom is irrelevant since my main point is that Cantha had existed as unified entity for far more than 305 years before the first humans began to appear on the northern super-continent.

Since Canthans are shown to control the international markets, the only logic is to conclude that Cantha also controls the sea. The richest nations are always those who control the international markets. The basis of modern economic activity is The ability to move goods and services from areas where they are in high supply to areas where they are in high demand. Navigable rivers, seas and other bodies of water allow you to do that cheaply and quickly. Typically, it’s worth is 10 times cheaper than overland. This simple fact makes countries with robust maritime transport options extremely capital-rich when compared to countries limited to land-only options.

Kaineng has need of multiple ports due to how large the city – and its coast – is. Kryta has a fairly small coast, only being Lion’s Arch, D’Alessio Seaboard, and Gates of Kryta area. There’s Port Sledge in the Shiverpeaks. There’s not much water for ports to the Shiverpeaks, and there’s none for Ascalon. Istan has multiple docks as well – Consulate Docks, Sun Docks, Kamadan, some in Zelon Reach, and some in the Keys (forgot name, starts with an M). Kourna has 2 major ones, one being Gandara.

I fail to see how this does nothing but reinforce the fact that Cantha has more naval capabilities than the rest of the continents. The problems with the pirates and criminal gangs are over with the Ministry of Purity having broken their base. Second, despite the fame of the corsairs, Elona will never be able to match Canthan naval sea power simply because Elona doesn’t have enough wood to build enough ships compared to Cantha. Same reason why Egypt has never been a naval power. Even more when the bulk of the human population in Elona has probably moved north to the Crystal Desert when Palawa Joko diverted the Elon river north and killed the entire ecosystem of Old Elona.

There two additional continents besides Cantha and the Tyrian-Elonian super continent according to the world map, and we know that there’s plenty of land east of Elona. Yes, I know this come from a leak, but one of the textures leaked correspond with the globe in the Chantry of Secrets. I haven’t time to examine it with precision but I assume it is the same map as we found. These two new lands could be potentially useful for Canthan colonies.

And I think I know who you’re referring to for the Whispers member – the human prefector (forgot his name). However, unless I’m missing something it’s never confirmed he’s Canthan. My character asks him if he’s from Kryta – he starts with “no” then goes “oh wait, the human kingdom? yes, yes!” to which my character responded “You don’t look Elonian. Canthan?” and he went “that’s need to know” – in short, it’s highly implied he’s Canthan, but never confirmed, let alone that he’s Luxon (again, unless I’m missing something you can elaborate for me?).

Also, the name is likely to have him blend in with Krytans – which in GW1 had some Spanish names occasionally.

I very much doubt it is an accident. There are tons of Canthan characters in Kryta who have straight Canthan names. By contrast I haven’t see many Elonians claiming to be Elonians.

Law of Productive Gullibility (Ruby Rule): Whenever anybody comes up to you with a patently ludicrous claim (such as, “I’m not a cat, I’m really an ancient Red Dragon”) there’s an at least two-thirds chance they’re telling the truth. Therefore, it pays to humor everyone you meet; odds are you’ll be glad you did later on.

Yes, it is a possibility his Mediterranean name is just because his family has blended with Krytans, but with him saying “it’s classified” implies that he’s indeed from Cantha. On top of that, it is implied that the Order of Whispers can, somehow, bypass Zhaitans blockade in the interviews. I think you just don’t want to visit Cantha again for some reason or another.

(edited by Legion.4198)

Kuunavang and "Bubbles" and Dragons

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Legion.4198

Konig Des Todes.2086

Also, please provide a source saying Cantha’s a naval power. I have never seen such.

An Empire Divided

305 CC (Age of the Falcon) (205 BE)

Though the news would not arrive in the Empire of the Dragon for several decades after the fact, the year 305 by Canthan reckoning saw the arrival of humans on the continent of Tyria. When news of these primitive barbarians did eventually reach Cantha, it was considered of little consequence. Perhaps, if the Canthans had seen fit to drive north and expand their empire, history would have played out very differently. But with the concerns and needs of an already sprawling realm, the emperors of Cantha chose to remain within their borders. And so the various Tyrian cultures developed, unhindered by—and for the most part, unaware of—their southern neighbors.

As we can see, Cantha have been an advanced naval powers even when the Ascalonians and Elonians were nothing but a bunch of primitive tribes. Being the nation with the biggest economic influence, as it was shown by the Xunlai only reinforces this fact.

“Whoever controls the seas controls the world trade; whoever controls world trade holds all the treasures of the world in his possession, and in fact, the whole world.”

Before 1492, Europe was a backwater of small nationalities struggling over a relatively small piece of cold, rainy land. But one technological change made Europe the center of the international system: deep-water navigation.

The ability to engage in long-range shipping safely allowed businesses on the Continent’s various navigable rivers to interact easily with each other, magnifying the rivers’ capital-generation capacity. Deep-water navigation also allowed many of the European nations to conquer vast extra-European empires. In short order, Europe went from being a cultural and economic backwater to being the engine of the world.

Cantha has been a naval power since the dawn of the Ascalonian and Elonian civilizations. The Megalopolis of Kaineng has more harbors than the entire world combined. You only need to see the extension of the Canthan ports. Almost every ship we saw in GW1 was of Canthan design or had a Canthan captain. It is quite evident that Canthans were able to impose their superior naval power as it is shown with the Xunlai, even after decades of isolation.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Sailors washing ashore doesn’t mean they’re with the Empire – they could be refugees or outlaws just as easily as they can be sailing under the emperor’s orders.

And why would they need to go as far when there are plenty of other lands not siegued by Zhaitain? There are at least three more destinations to chose, including Elona, before risking their lives with breaking Zhaitans’s blockade. The only explanation is that Cantha interests extend to the lands near Tyria and thus will end in conflict with DSD.

Funny because we have a Luxon in the Order of Whisper with an obvious spanish name, I don’t know why Arenanet would chose to change the original Greek names for Spanish ones unless they have decided to transform them into Conquistadors at the service of the Empire.

(edited by Legion.4198)

Kuunavang and "Bubbles" and Dragons

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Legion.4198

Koning de Todes

1) The Deep Sea Dragon is heavily implied via quaggan, krait, and largos lore to be in the Unending Ocean – not near Cantha.

You should check the maps again. The Unending Ocean is the biggest body of water on the planet and connects all the continents. Unlike the other Dragons, The Deep Sea Dragon can extend its influence all over the world in any continent it wishes and can change its base of operations. Since Cantha is a traditional naval power, it only makes sense to cast him as the main supernatural enemy of the empire.

First off all, I’m not saying your not right. This might have been the case during the first dragon’s awakening. But though that is hard to date that was before humans where an important faction in the world. One of the races that fought the dragon’s then where the margonites (before becomming Abadon’s minions). They where afaik the race that dominated the seas during the last awakening and most evidence point in the direction that humans didn’t even existed then so let alone the empire.

Now during the second awakening of the dragons the empire has closed all outside influence and therefore it is very unlikely they can still be a naval power when trade and traffic is mostly blocked by the goverment.

The Canthans have been an Empire that has not only has existed as an unified entity since even before the rest of humanity even arrived to the planet, but also knew about their arrival and could have easily conquered them. Cantha had already well developed Deep Sea navigation even when the Charr dominated Ascalon. The existene of a previous seafaring race doesn’t change this fact.

Second, we have news of Canthan sailors washing ashore on Tyria. Thus proving that the Empire is more than willing to extend its influence far from their mainland. Either the Empire has domains and renewed trade threatened by the DSD or has changed its isolationist policies for one of expansionism and conquest. Whoever controls the seas can dominate and extend its influence all over the world and controls the access to international oversea markets.

Finally, the races of Tyria have lost all the experience in open sea for a hundred years. The Tyrian fleets pose no threat to the DSD. If the DSD begins to threaten cities like Lion’s Arch, Rata Sum, the Domain of the Winds, and the coast of Tyria, we will need someone who hasn’t lost this knowledge.

Largos!

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

But the Canthan Empire is a naval power. Thus any kind of supernatural entity threatening Canthan ships would be a major threat to the Empire. Tyria even see sporadic Canthan sailors washing ashore on Maguuma jungle which would indicate that the Empire is more than willing to wage war agains this DSD.