Guild Wars 2

Ayrilana.1396:

Rezok.2709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Rezok.2709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Rezok.2709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Justine.6351:

Ayrilana.1396:

Justine.6351:

Ayrilana.1396:

They’ll likely just add an ICD to the trait.

I actually thought this trait was linked to skills that caused chill rather than any chill at all. It would actually probably be easier to balance if the source of chill was limited to that instead of any random chill. Thinking of the difference between a random icd procing chilling bolt combo vs guaranteed 600 chill shouts always procing as extremes.

Except I don’t believe the stacks last all that long so something like 2 seconds may be enough to make it not be so OP.

No,
I mean if you put an icd on it then random procs of things like chilling bolt can make you sadface because it denies you potential 600 aoe 5 target bleed if you cast a chill shout like .5sec after that. I think it would be better to tie chill bleed to the actual skills that cause chill for this reason.

Is there even a precedent to separate a particular condition by whether it’s “random” or not? I don’t recall them having ever separated a condition based on its various sources. It just opens up for too many things that could go wrong.

You seem to look at it as more advanced than it really is. A simple way would just be to make the trait something like:

“Any ability that cause chill now also add x bleeds to the target(s)”

That’s just like the Thief trait “Serpent’s Touch”, which cause stealing to also inflict poison. Only now, instead of just one ability it adds an effect to several (all those that cause chill). This way it will be strictly linked to necro abilities so it won’t work with any “random chills”, and the way to implement it is already used in other traitlines in the game.

Look at it as more advanced? Huh?

Again. You’re assuming that the game differentiates between the sources of chill. As if it can tell if it comes from a skill vs a utility vs a proc vs a environmental weapon.

No, I do not assume that. My idea is to avoid that all together, but it seems you misunderstood my previous post or something.

My idea is basically that you link Deadly Chill to abilities. It simply links it to the abilities, not to chill. Now, obviously they link it to those abilities with chill, but it’s not directly linked to chilling. It’s a rather simple solution if you want to remove the effect from “random chills”. Not sure why you insist on talking about telling the difference from skill / pro / enviornmental.

You state that it’s simple but as I have said at least twice before: the game doesn’t differentiate chilled between skills, utilities, procs, and environmental weapons. What you’re suggesting is really no different. Whether directly or indirectly, you’re trying to have that trait differentiate chilled between skills and everything else as well as between the skills that have chilled vs those that do not.

There’s precedent for adding ICD’s so we’re more likely to see that. It’s easier to add since other traits have had ICD’s added before as well as food procs. It’s also easier to maintain as everything is contained within that trait and not upon which skills have chill.

I try a third time, as you yet again don’t understand. You keep saying I want the game to differentiate all kinds chill sources, but my idea (as I’ve posted twice) don’t need to. It REALLY isn’t a hard concept to understand, but I’ll try to explain again;

Deathly Chill should add bleeding to SPECIFIC skills, and the skills Anet decides to put it on is those with chill. It’s attached to SKILLS, not CHILL. In case this still isn’t understandable, it’s like this from the games view:

“When Deathly Chill is taken, bleed is added to skill x, y, z, etc.”

The skills x, y, z are some that Anet decide. Now, Anet decides to pick all those skills with chill on it. it doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with chill as far as the game sees it, it’s just Anet that decides to put it on all those skills that have chill.

Which is differentiating between sources like I stated in my post. You’re just using specific skills as the “middle-man”.

You say the game can’t differentiate between sources and my solution doesn’t HAVE to differentiate. In my solution it has nothing direct to do with chill as far as the game sees it.

But it seems you just don’t understand it (or don’t want to admit it). Either case you are either too arogant to discuss with or you got no idea about how the game actually works – in both cases I think this discussion is at an end.

Ayrilana.1396:

Rezok.2709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Rezok.2709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Justine.6351:

Ayrilana.1396:

Justine.6351:

Ayrilana.1396:

They’ll likely just add an ICD to the trait.

I actually thought this trait was linked to skills that caused chill rather than any chill at all. It would actually probably be easier to balance if the source of chill was limited to that instead of any random chill. Thinking of the difference between a random icd procing chilling bolt combo vs guaranteed 600 chill shouts always procing as extremes.

Except I don’t believe the stacks last all that long so something like 2 seconds may be enough to make it not be so OP.

No,
I mean if you put an icd on it then random procs of things like chilling bolt can make you sadface because it denies you potential 600 aoe 5 target bleed if you cast a chill shout like .5sec after that. I think it would be better to tie chill bleed to the actual skills that cause chill for this reason.

Is there even a precedent to separate a particular condition by whether it’s “random” or not? I don’t recall them having ever separated a condition based on its various sources. It just opens up for too many things that could go wrong.

You seem to look at it as more advanced than it really is. A simple way would just be to make the trait something like:

“Any ability that cause chill now also add x bleeds to the target(s)”

That’s just like the Thief trait “Serpent’s Touch”, which cause stealing to also inflict poison. Only now, instead of just one ability it adds an effect to several (all those that cause chill). This way it will be strictly linked to necro abilities so it won’t work with any “random chills”, and the way to implement it is already used in other traitlines in the game.

Look at it as more advanced? Huh?

Again. You’re assuming that the game differentiates between the sources of chill. As if it can tell if it comes from a skill vs a utility vs a proc vs a environmental weapon.

No, I do not assume that. My idea is to avoid that all together, but it seems you misunderstood my previous post or something.

My idea is basically that you link Deadly Chill to abilities. It simply links it to the abilities, not to chill. Now, obviously they link it to those abilities with chill, but it’s not directly linked to chilling. It’s a rather simple solution if you want to remove the effect from “random chills”. Not sure why you insist on talking about telling the difference from skill / pro / enviornmental.

You state that it’s simple but as I have said at least twice before: the game doesn’t differentiate chilled between skills, utilities, procs, and environmental weapons. What you’re suggesting is really no different. Whether directly or indirectly, you’re trying to have that trait differentiate chilled between skills and everything else as well as between the skills that have chilled vs those that do not.

There’s precedent for adding ICD’s so we’re more likely to see that. It’s easier to add since other traits have had ICD’s added before as well as food procs. It’s also easier to maintain as everything is contained within that trait and not upon which skills have chill.

I try a third time, as you yet again don’t understand. You keep saying I want the game to differentiate all kinds chill sources, but my idea (as I’ve posted twice) don’t need to. It REALLY isn’t a hard concept to understand, but I’ll try to explain again;

Deathly Chill should add bleeding to SPECIFIC skills, and the skills Anet decides to put it on is those with chill. It’s attached to SKILLS, not CHILL. In case this still isn’t understandable, it’s like this from the games view:

“When Deathly Chill is taken, bleed is added to skill x, y, z, etc.”

The skills x, y, z are some that Anet decide. Now, Anet decides to pick all those skills with chill on it. it doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with chill as far as the game sees it, it’s just Anet that decides to put it on all those skills that have chill.

Ayrilana.1396:

Rezok.2709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Justine.6351:

Ayrilana.1396:

Justine.6351:

Ayrilana.1396:

They’ll likely just add an ICD to the trait.

I actually thought this trait was linked to skills that caused chill rather than any chill at all. It would actually probably be easier to balance if the source of chill was limited to that instead of any random chill. Thinking of the difference between a random icd procing chilling bolt combo vs guaranteed 600 chill shouts always procing as extremes.

Except I don’t believe the stacks last all that long so something like 2 seconds may be enough to make it not be so OP.

No,
I mean if you put an icd on it then random procs of things like chilling bolt can make you sadface because it denies you potential 600 aoe 5 target bleed if you cast a chill shout like .5sec after that. I think it would be better to tie chill bleed to the actual skills that cause chill for this reason.

Is there even a precedent to separate a particular condition by whether it’s “random” or not? I don’t recall them having ever separated a condition based on its various sources. It just opens up for too many things that could go wrong.

You seem to look at it as more advanced than it really is. A simple way would just be to make the trait something like:

“Any ability that cause chill now also add x bleeds to the target(s)”

That’s just like the Thief trait “Serpent’s Touch”, which cause stealing to also inflict poison. Only now, instead of just one ability it adds an effect to several (all those that cause chill). This way it will be strictly linked to necro abilities so it won’t work with any “random chills”, and the way to implement it is already used in other traitlines in the game.

Look at it as more advanced? Huh?

Again. You’re assuming that the game differentiates between the sources of chill. As if it can tell if it comes from a skill vs a utility vs a proc vs a environmental weapon.

No, I do not assume that. My idea is to avoid that all together, but it seems you misunderstood my previous post or something.

My idea is basically that you link Deadly Chill to abilities. It simply links it to the abilities, not to chill. Now, obviously they link it to those abilities with chill, but it’s not directly linked to chilling. It’s a rather simple solution if you want to remove the effect from “random chills”. Not sure why you insist on talking about telling the difference from skill / pro / enviornmental.

Ayrilana.1396:

Justine.6351:

Ayrilana.1396:

Justine.6351:

Ayrilana.1396:

They’ll likely just add an ICD to the trait.

I actually thought this trait was linked to skills that caused chill rather than any chill at all. It would actually probably be easier to balance if the source of chill was limited to that instead of any random chill. Thinking of the difference between a random icd procing chilling bolt combo vs guaranteed 600 chill shouts always procing as extremes.

Except I don’t believe the stacks last all that long so something like 2 seconds may be enough to make it not be so OP.

No,
I mean if you put an icd on it then random procs of things like chilling bolt can make you sadface because it denies you potential 600 aoe 5 target bleed if you cast a chill shout like .5sec after that. I think it would be better to tie chill bleed to the actual skills that cause chill for this reason.

Is there even a precedent to separate a particular condition by whether it’s “random” or not? I don’t recall them having ever separated a condition based on its various sources. It just opens up for too many things that could go wrong.

You seem to look at it as more advanced than it really is. A simple way would just be to make the trait something like:

“Any ability that cause chill now also add x bleeds to the target(s)”

That’s just like the Thief trait “Serpent’s Touch”, which cause stealing to also inflict poison. Only now, instead of just one ability it adds an effect to several (all those that cause chill). This way it will be strictly linked to necro abilities so it won’t work with any “random chills”, and the way to implement it is already used in other traitlines in the game.

That’s an absolutely horrible idea. People payed to play a game. They can play whatever profession they want. What if they only have a thief? And even if they have something else, it’s not up to other players to decide what someone should play.

Natto.5819:

Players should play more than Theif. I have Ranger, Thief, and Warrior.

And to this; no. Players should play exactly how much they want. Congratulations on having 3 characters, I have all professions. Still, when I log into my thief I want to play thief, otherwise I’d have logged into something else. PuG PvP equals frustration from bad teammates, bad team comps and bad behaviour. That’s how it is in all games and it’s what happens when you allow different people to be randomly tossed together. Quit PvP if you don’t like it.

Vague Memory.2817:

When you’ve played sPVP for a few years you can clearly see the different between those who use and those who don’t. Especially if you play those classes, and realise that is the only way they can pull off certain combos that quickly and consistently is with help.

No, just because you think you r ealized something doesn’t make it true. You might have bad keybinds leading you to think that it’s impossible, but there are people who practice doing combos as fast as possible. If you have both keys on your mouse and keyboard you can do it even faster.

You have 5 fingers on your keyboard and can have a few fingers on keybinds on a mouse aswell, personally I have 1 finger for key binds on my mouse. That’s 6 fingers I can click with. How do you fail to see that this allows me (or anyone else) to click 6 buttons?

Vanchatron.2306:

I know they are called ‘Elite’ Specializations, so does that make them 100% worth taking? Am I gonna be gimping myself somehow by not running Daredevil?

I’d like to point out, that despite their name, Elite Specializations are in NO way meant to be superior to the old trait lines. This is something Anet have said several times. Problem is, they just so happened to make pretty much every ES at least in the top 3 trait lines for their respective profession. But it might change if they get the older trait lines balanced – so don’t get too much into the “Elite stands for better” kind of thought.

I’d recommend DA/Tr/DD, or CS/Tr/DD. Tr and DD is simply too good to pass up.

thunderfall.8095:

To be fair, D/D cheese I’d actually hard to play. It may be spammy, but trust me, it’s not easy to pull off.

I agree to some degree – It’s too easy against ‘noobs’ and in my experience, against other thieves. But they lack condi bombs. The only way you get that is by using all utility on it, and then it’s only one bomb. It’s easy to counter since most people run with condi cleanse.
I’ve played it myself, before HoT, and it isn’t as easy as it looks against proper enemies – that I agree with. Personally I always found P/D more fun though.

Hello there, and welcome to the thief profession! I’ve played thief as my main since pre-release myself.

Go to bottom for builds, right below is a description of playstyle.
I’d personally recommend D/P or staff.

Playstyles / weapons:
Thief can do both condi and power builds, but tbh condi is mainly cheesy builds vs very specific enemies or below average players. I’ll skip those with saying it’s mainly D/D Death Blossom (#3) spam with poisons and Daredevil trait for condi on dodge. Another condi build is P/D, this plays on pistol stealth ability as well as auto attack for bleedstacking. Most play with poisons for this too.
If this sounds interesting, just ask and I’ll show you some builds and more in-depth about those playstyles.

Moving on is the power builds, those thief are mostly known for. D/D power build is pretty much dead, since D/P does far better utility / ways to stealth and both got backstab as their main damage.

Black Powder (pistol #5) and then either Heartseeker or dodge (with Bounding Dodger trait) will grant you stealth. Heatshot (pistol #4) is your interrupt, mostly heals, channeled attacks or ressing will be targets for this skill. With the right trait you can also do nice damage with interrupts. Dual skill (#3) is your gab closer with a blind and some pretty damage. Heartseeker is another gab closer as well as an executioner ability. Auto attack, as you might now, have been buffed to do great damage as well, but careful; you can’t stand there and take hits yourself.

Another way is the new weapon, staff. This is mainly using vault and AA as your damage along with Bounding Dodger if you choose to use this. You don’t really play with stealth, but you get a lot of evading, since Vault is an evade. You also get a retreat, an AoE blind and a weakness attack.

S/D isn’t what it used to be, but some enjoy it. It’s less bursty than other power builds, and it’s main selling point being evade isn’t really better than staff evade.

All build will use Shortbow as second weapon due to it’s mobility and AoE, as well as being ranged for when you can’t stay close.

Builds:

All builds are made in PvP editor, but you can use them for WvW as well.

D/P:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVn0MBFmilOBGOB8PhFYCTLBEA2NzdwT4K0LNcGaDA-TJBFABxv/g4lBE4UAAwTAAA

You can choose to change Impacting Disruption with Escapist’s Absolution. Also you can change Bountiful Theft with Trickster. Some might even use Executioner over Improvisation, but I’d recommend not using Executioner. Also the utility Bandit’s Defense can be changed for Fist Flurry to get more burst but less defense. Runes can also be ‘of the pack’.

Staff:

http://de.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVn0MBFmilOBGOB8PhFYCTLBEA2NzdwT4K0LNcGaDA-TJBFABxv/g4lBE4UAAwTAAA

You might use the trait bBrawler’s Tenacity and combine it with the heal Channeled Vigor. Unhindered Combatant trait can be used for less damage but more mobility.

It became a bit long, but there you go

Nethod.7068:

Deal with the design guy, just deal with it and good luck.

I can’t even play that raid.
I can’t because of the design and you want it to stay that way.
You want me to change my build and the way I have always played and learn a completely different way to play so I’ll be able to enjoy this raid.
You want me to swap characters and gear just for this raid because if I don’t I just wont’ be able to play it. THanks guy, you care.

Can i get a refund yet ANET? I can’t even see what I paid for.

Let me just get this right: you want your specific build to be viable in raids? Do you know how many build combinations the trait + weapon + stat allow? if they should all be viable you’d have to make raids faceroll easy – like dungeons. And that just result in people only wanting max damage builds to make it faster and get over with the boring gameplay just for rewards.
Or they would have to remake the whole stat, trait and weapon system to something simple where you can balance everything. Not gonna happen.
Just understand that this isn’t a tank, healer and dps game. dps is ruling GW2 with support as a PvP / WvW thing.

Link.1049:

I’ve given up. Even with this last balance patch my thief with toughness build is a 1 shot… I can manage 2 shots if I do toughness and vitality. I HATE HoT. I keep changing my build up to see if there’s anyway I can survive better… but no luck at that. Any AOE field and I’m toast.

To be honest, thief isn’t THAT bad anymore. Sure, we are squishy and need a bit of love, but roaming and non ranked PvP (there are no ranked anymore anyway) are fine for thief. Sure it takes a bit more work than some other professions, but it’s not unreasonably work.
Again, not saying we are 100% where we should be compared to other professions, but we are very playable.

I agree with everything about the runes / sigil.

I do, however, disagree with your thoughts on Mug. It used to crit, but without the healing. I’d say the healing is much more important. Besides, the damage combos you could do with Backstab, Mug crit and sigil procs were too high. I know some profession can do same kind of damage at the moment, but thief don’t need more buffs, other professions needs nerfs – otherwise it becomes a “who one shots first” game.
I also disagree with your statement about Mind Wrack. You can’t compare one skill to another, you need to take the whole profession into account. Mind Wrack is the whole point of a shatter mesmer, and to be honest they would be VERY underpowered if it could not crit. It’s like if a thief couldn’t crit Backstab, it would ruin any Backstab build.

Still, most of your post really address some issues that should be looked into.

Peace out!

Mor The Thief.9135:

reikken.4961:

From my tests, chain takes about 1.87 seconds now, down from 2.52

OK, but does it translates to a 30% dmg buff thanks to the fact that sword is hitting faster?

Doing a really quick math check using above posts numbers of attack speed aswell as my berserker thiefs tooltip damage, the dps went from 909 to 1225. Bear in mind that this is just the tooltip damage, so crits and such hasn’t been taking into account.

Name: Karyn Desera
Race: Human
Gender: Female

Joshhh.2076:

Knowingly (key word) interrupting a duel doesn’t prove anything, it doesn’t make you better, or cooler, and it doesn’t really help your server.

Thing is (speaking for myself at least) – being cool, better or helping the server isn’t why I do it. I simply find it entertaining to attack enemies. Under all circumstances. And I play the game for my own entertainment.

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

He is not a new player, read again, there’s your clue.

Sadly you don’t understand unwritten rules, you only think that because it is open world pvp. So yes we can just do what we like, still, players are enjoying wvw how they prefer, but they know what’s respectful towards those; who know the unwritten rules, wvw/gvg guilds don’t jump into one guild as a group of 2 or more, unless outnumbered. After all this time, players should know by now.

You shouldn’t have to obey unwritten rules – there is a reason why they aren’t official rules. There are a lot of people going by “if it’s red, it’s dead”. Let’s just start calling that an unwritten rule as well, then you can’t call us disrespectful, we just follow another “rule”.

Point being, it’s not us who are disrespectful for interrupting a duel. WvW is made for killing enemies, not standing around waiting to see if you are “allowed” to do so. If you don’t like it then WvW is clearly not for you.

kash.9213:

I’ve stopped using Bandit’s Defense in pve now as well. I wanted to love this one and it’s really a nice utility but even if some rat accidentally sneezes on your half of the map you’ll scoot right past all of the bad guys out of the place you intended to bunker down to knock down your main threat and drop kick the rat while you get fried by all of the aoe you weren’t in a second ago and there’s a good chance you’ll fall off a nearby cliff.

Hahaha, this is a pretty accurate description of the skill.
But yeah, in being serious I did use it in the start. I wanted to use it, a block on thief is great – and coupled with a cc? Even better. But the way it works, and with how squishy thieves are outside evades the melee locked animation just makes it your death more often than it saves you. Only time I’d use it is in a duel versus a warrior maybe.

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

I find it incredibly difficult to land Fist Flurry in PvP, so I end up just taking either Bandit’s Defense or Blinding Powder instead.

Yeah, Fist Flurry can be hard to land. I use to avoid it due to that, and I still do in staff builds. I did find it to work great with D/P because you can do a stunlock. Try this: Basilisk Venom stun, then hit the target from behind to get haste from traits. You can do the whole Fist Flurry + the follow up attack within the stun. The follow up attack also adds another stun, forcing him to stun break or die.
Blinding Powder could be useful, Bandit’s Defense I’d never use in PvP. If a melee attack is blocked you get into an unstoppable animation, basically CC’ing yourself – any skilled player that sees you do BD will use it against you for the rest of the fight.

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

I’ve been trying to run Trickster instead of Bountiful Theft for awhile, and I find that the higher uptime and condi clear on Withdraw is rather nice. I’m not sure which is better though honestly…

Ah, yeah – was actually a mistake, made the builds fast, and I used to run it, hence habit made me click it. I run Trickster usually. In WvW i do sometimes run BT, but then I also use the Physical heal and the trait to reduce Physical skills CD. This is more of a “fun” build, not too serious in my case.

I am assuming you are talking about PvP and / or WvW.
Thief isn’t really a support profession, but obviously some builds fits more for team play.
I’d go for a D/P – SB build. SB is widely used as a utility weapon by thieves. D/P allows you to get the backstab / heartseeker burst, but also use headshot for interrupts and black powder for blind. Also, in this combo you can do the BP > bound or BP > HS for stealth.
Traitwise I’d go something like DA / Tri / DD. Impacting Disruption allows you to keep damage up while using interrupts from your pistol.

Staff can be fun too in my experience in WvW with a partner. The Ranger can stay behind and shoot while you jump the enemy. With the countless dodges you can evade tank while doing nice damage, and with a ranger longbow from the back you should be able to kill before you run out of ini and utility skills.
Also, improvisation is great. Gives you two times stolen skill, if you steal stuff the ranger skill and use short bow to blast in it you can heal nicely for both you and your friend.

I use this for D/P – SB:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVn0MBVmilOBGOB8PhFYCzLMEHaDzdwT4KULBEA2NA-TZBFABCcCAEvMQN7PswhAAgnAAA

And this for Staff:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVn0MBlPhlOBGOBkmiFYCzLNcGaDzdwR4KULBEA2NA-TZBFABCcCAEvMQN7PswhAAgnAAA

Sometimes i change the heal or a utility (always keeping shadowstep, and for DD builds I keep SoA all the time too.)

Bhawb.7408:

Thief can stealth, so while they can’t directly fight who cares if they stealth and are 2k units away nearly immediately.

Thieves dies way easier than a necro. Yes, they have shadow steps which makes it easier to run, but that’s not how you win anything. Both thieves and necro needs a better way to stay in the fight.

Bhawb.7408:

Everyone else (besides us) have a ton of blocks, invulns, immunities, etc, all of which easily add up to 10s of negation. They might not be able to last forever, but there is a reason every other profession in the game can successfully run full glass damage builds in PvP without being instakilled, and Necromancers haven’t (with the rare Lich cheese exception).

Now I’m puzzled, did you read my whole post, or just the first part? I did mention that most other professions got either blocks, invulnerability or both – and that’s what necro is missing. Don’t just jump on the “I’ll defend my profession no matter what” train. I did in my other post agree that necro needs some way to survive for a few seconds in order to get out of sticky situations, just like any other profession.

Bhawb.7408:

Rezok.2709:

Isn’t being outnumbered supposted to be a struggle for EVERY profession? Otherwise you are the very definition of overpowered.

While true, every other profession can stall for pretty significant amounts of time regardless of how many opponents they face. Mesmer bunkers right now can stall for 15s+ against infinite enemies dealing infinite damage, whereas a Necromancer would be killed immediately.

I agree, necro die fast when outnumbered – but IMO that’s not an issue. I’d rather see that professions that can stand their ground vs too many should be nerfed. (Unless you run bunker with no damage, then obviously you should be able to stand your ground).

And tbh, beside mesmers and ele not many can stand their ground outnumbered (assuming the enemies are skilled). The difference is engineers, warriors, rangers and guardians got either block, invulnerability or both. Necro most likely didn’t get it because of their second life bar, but the more enemies you face the worse it gets compared to what others got.

LegendPlayer.2418:

Everyone knows that necro’s main struggle is when they get outnumbered

Isn’t being outnumbered supposted to be a struggle for EVERY profession? Otherwise you are the very definition of overpowered.

franxi.6513:

Why the character that by definition has to got the Higher singletarget damage DONT have it?

And where is that definition from? Sure the single target damage should be higher than supporting professions or AoE damaging builds, but why should thief be THE highest single target? Why should, say, a LB ranger be worse than a thief? That’s just asking for your personal favourite profession to be god-mode.

franxi.6513:

-Why one of the class that need more skill to play is so nerf now?

While thief isn’t the easiest, it isn’t the hardest either. Now, playing it as main since the start I might not be a good example, but thief ain’t THAT hard to play, just need to understand their strength and weaknesses. I DO agree that thief got some problems atm, mainly in PvP (they seem fine for WvW and PvE), so does a lot of other professions. That’s just how MMORPG is.

franxi.6513:

-Why everyclass can make critical damage with his Fskill (f1 warrior, shatter mesmer, necros, etc…) and thieves with steal DONT?

Because it’s a different profession, obviously. Other professions don’t have backstab damage linked to their #1 skill. If thief got that you could just use trait for stealth on steal. Basilisk Venom pre-fight, steal into fight for half their hp and BV stun, then guaranteed backstab hit for the kill. (Like back when Mug were overpowered). That’s just stupid design.

franxi.6513:

-Why everyclass has 1 way to counter thieves with “revealed” and thieves dont have counterskills to other class?

Every profession does not have revealed. 4 profession does. And not even all of those 4 can play good builds that involves it.
How does thief NOT have counter to other people? Insane mobility (especially with the new DD traitline), great control and high damage. That’s enough already. Sure thief might be in a little tough place atm, but don’t forget they have been masters of 1v1 since release more or less. I think we can let other professions shine just a little for now.

franxi.6513:

-Why you dont answer to thieves comunity to say that you care about thieves, and how do you think to make this class playable again in high level (making posible to duel)?

Of course they intend to make it playable (which it already is). It’s not like they can just tune up thief and call it a day. It affects all of PvP and WvW if you buff one profession.

franxi.6513:

-Why there is no balance between thieves and another characters? Why you buff characters with top builds in the past (like meditation builds) now with ONESHOT traps?

It’s a whole new expansion. Of course things need tweeking, that’s how it is in every MMORPG. Remember it’s mere mortals making the game, it’s not as easy as sitting on a forum yelling about buffs and nerfs.

franxi.6513:

-Why all the classes has blocks and invulnerabilities and thieves no?

Because thieves are great at mobility, dodges and got stealth. You can’t have everything, why would you think thieves should have that? If every profession got everything, then what’s the difference between them?

franxi.6513:

-Why you HATE thieves?

Stop spreading hate.

There you go, answers to all your questions. Peace out.

While I haven’t played berserker enough to comment on their state, I’d like to point out that the idea about elite spec is NOT to make it mandatory to use. You say you prefer using a regular spec rather than the elite – that is fine. Some people will prefer the regular trait lines.
Again, I cannot tell if berserker is useful for some place in the game yet, but I’m glad they don’t seem to be the only way to play. Elite specs should be a way to get new builds, not a way to get the best builds

Yashuoa.9527:

Thief seems lot of fun in pvp to me with all their tricks vs real players but that might be different in pve vs npcs.

Do you find thief fun in pve too?
Why?

Thieves are great for PvE too. World bosses aren’t our best thing atm, since P/P was our ranged weapon and it lost an important trait, and we are too squishy to stand in melee, but vs world bosses min/max won’t matter much, so play whatever you like.
In PvE zones like the Silverwastes thieves excel because we have such great mobility. You can easily go from one play to another (since those zones don’t have a lot of waypoints). This makes stuff like chest farming (google it if you don’t know it) way easier, and we are great at doing the events in level 80 zones too, having high damage aswell as essential abilities like group stealth on NPC carriers to make sure they won’t die or or quickly move to another point that needs help.

Hello and welcome to the world of thieves! I’ve been playing thief as my main since pre-release. Here’s my take on your questions:

Yashuoa.9527:

Do you use a sword in your pvp build (weaponswap) for the infiltrator’s strike?
That ability makes me superduper happy.

A lot got jumbled up in the recent patch, and this means that for high tier pvp you will not use sword. D/P with shortbow is the way to go there.
HOWEVER in unranked play or hotjoins sword is just fine. S/D was very viable before the patch, and I suspect it will be again once Anet gets more balancing done.
As for WvW, S/D is still fine aswell.
A quick view of weapon sets (not set in stone, but it will give you an idea about it):

S/D: WvW / unranked PvP
S/P: PvE
D/D: WvW / Unranked PvP / PvE
D/P: WvW, Ranked PvP
P/P: not too great atm, only used for fun
P/D: WVW (being our condition set)

[quote=5349250;Yashuoa.9527:I read how thieves arent good in large scale fights but they have so much mobility and thus escapes. That should not make large scale fights hard right? You can pick targets out in all the chaos of a large scale fight. It could even be in your advantage.[/quote]

The problem with a thief faces in a large scale fight is, that even random AoE to each side will deal heavy damage, and might even down you. As you point out yourself, our way of avoiding this humiliating death is mobility. The problem is, that if you shadowstep away to survive, you will not be helping your team. Take a guardian instead, they survive through heals and blocks. This means that they can continue to stay in the fight and be of help. That’s why people would prefer other professions for large scale fights. Should be noted that shortbow can help in quite a bit if you get a nice position for large scale fights.
Another thing is, that since thief got much mobility they can easily move between points, actually faster than anyone else. Also we excel at taking down a unaware target, so it’s simply better to stick to what we do better. Should be noted that if you see a large scale fight you can do certain combos to great effect, like shadowstep in for a backstab then shadowstep away and get back to your business – this will help your team down an enemy and hopefully win the point.

Yashuoa.9527:

When people talk about professions that are most difficult I read stuff like ele and engi.
Isnt thief the most difficult? To me it seems the profession with the biggest skillcap with all the options that you have with your positioning, timing, shadowsteps, dazing abilities and such. Right?

Ele is difficult in that they have many abilities. Also they got many roles, being kind of a hybrid.
Engi is the same way, with weapon kits and being hybrid.
Thief do have a bad reputation though. Many people have been taken by a stealthed thief suddenly popping huge backstabs and it can be frustrating. This often leads to people believing thieves are easy to play. Just stealth and backstab. This is often the case in WvW where you can buff your stats to a bit overpowered levels with food and other buffs, but a lot of other professions can do this too.
Personally I’d say thief is among the harder to play in some aspects, but once you learn how other professions work, and how most people react thiefs are not as hard as an ele or engi. Especially because we can almost always just reset the fight or leave it if we don’t think we can win.

Yashuoa.9527:

Does anyone know some recommendable pvp vids/streams of thiefs that I could watch?

Not watching too many streams, but I’d say go to youtube and search for “Thief roaming” or “Thief PvP”, or anything like it. Try to take new videos, preferably those after June 23, 2015 – this is where a big patch just landed, and watching older videos will often give wrong information about other professions they fight. Thieves have kept much of our old gameplay though, so you can watch older videos to learn how to use your abilities in PvP or WvW.

EvilZombie.6801:

use rune of the undead with rabid gear :P

I’d note that in general PvE like Silverwastes you will not need rabid gear, as toughness will not add to your damage, and you don’t need it to survive.

Sinister gear is the way to go (power, precision, condition), since even as a condi engi you have the potential to do great direct damage through grenades and bombs.

Sifu.9745:

Staff autotacak applies Weakness on my opponent, which means 50% less damage taken

This isn’t actually how weakness works. Weakness turns 50% of your attacks into glancing blows, which means 50% less damage. This is an important difference. Over the long run it should statistically be a 25% damage reduction, but it’s a bit different when it comes to burst, thanks to the RNG gods.
Take for example a thief. He will often rely on big backstabs or heartseekers for burst. Those may all be full hits, and only some auto attacks inbetween will be 50% less damage, meaning the burst is still high.
Same goes for other professions, like a warrior might be lucky on a hundred blades and only get one glancing blow from all the hits, making it a minor reduction of damage. Remember, weakness isn’t just about damage reduction, it’s also about reduction of endurance regeneration, making enemies active defenses lower.

Furthermore, weakness only works on hits, conditions will still kill you – especially burning.

You also mention that blind should give you immunity to damage, which isn’t correct either. It simply makes the next attack miss. Only one attack. Any experienced player will try to counter this. Blind can be powerful, but only if you use it smart. A necromancer with warhorn can make their Locust Swarm take away the blind, condi clearing abilities will remove it and a simple auto attack will remove it.

Also remember that GW2 is about active defenses. Spamming auto attack in a defensive attunement can only do so much. You need to use earth defenses along with blinds, heals, dodges and counter pressure to stay alive.

edit Additional information.

Good to see someone trying to adapt instead of complain!

There are several things that changed in the june 23 patch that seems to be the cause of your problem.

The first thing is that stats were removed from trait lines and rolled into party base stats and party gear stats. Since thiefs usually don’t run with vitality on all their gear, this is a loss in our health pool. Same goes for toughness and healing power.

Secondly, conditions like burning are currently a bit overtuned in most opinions – they were changed to stack like bleeding instead of in duration. This means, that you can actually get to 8k ticks of burning in a few seconds, especially guardians or engineeer.
All power based builds seems to be stronger aswell (goes for thief too, try using DA, CS and TR and you will see a great increase in your damage compared to pre-patch). This obviously means you will die easier to enemy burst.

Thirdly, thief took a hit to their survivability from traits. Shadow’s Embrace were nerfed, and Cloaked in Shadows + Shadow’s rejuvenation got moved to same tier, so you can’t take both (the last one is quite a hit to D/D thiefs). Also, Acrobatics took a big hit, especially due to Feline Grace being nerfed to Vigor for 2 seconds. Furthermore, Vigor got halfed in effect (through you get it to be 75% if you use acrobatics). And you no longer get ini back when going stealth if you used to trait that (it was removed).

Now, how do you proceed with your thief? Well, Valk armor is obviously an easy way to regain some lost health. You also need to think of changing your build. You can only choose 3 lines, but you get to max all 3 out. If you are uncertain about builds I’d advice to just read all the traits to see what changed, use MetaBattle or PM me and I’ll help

Now, the hard truth is, that you will have a harder time on your thief right now, especially if you try S/D which relied heavily on Acrobatics, but it’s still playable. It seems like D/P is the way to go for most thiefs, but I’ve seen an increase in D/D thiefs around, while S/D are much more rare as far as I’ve seen. D/P DA SA TR seems to be the current meta for PvP, and should work in WvW too. Some people like CS too through, and some even still use Acrobatics. Try it all yourself, maybe non-meta will fit your playstyle better.

Another thing I’d advice is looking at the profession forums and reading the patch note to see what changed for other professions. For example, it’s never been more important to avoid a mesmers shatter combo. Try to use headshot or steal interrupt on channeled skills instead of just going stealth. Remember what traits were nerfed, but also which one got buffed (TR is a really great line, I’d advice you always take it).
Also, you need to think more about your ini, since you can’t trait for ini back on stealth.

And remember to embrace the oldest and nobelst of our traditions; you must fight, to run away. (Quote: Jack Sparrow).

Rin.1046:

Rezok.2709:

You can’t compare one skill between professions. Following your logic mesmer should get something similar to backstab when they attack from stealth because, well, thiefs got backstab.

Yes, Jade Wind seems stronger than Basilisk Venom, but that’s no reason to buff BV. You balance a profession around ALL of their abilities, not just because x got a stronger skill than y. Yes, I believe thiefs needs some buffs (and nerfs for some things aswell), but saying one skill needs a buff because another profession got something stronger means you’re not looking at the whole picture.
Revenant haven’t gone live, they might get crap damage compared to thief when HoT comes, or they might have to rely on that ONE elite for control, where thiefs got plenty of control. You simply cannot say BV needs a buff because a profession, that isn’t even done yet, got one skill that’s stronger.

That is a fair comment, and to some degree I agree with you. When the right traits are selected BV can be very strong. But I still believe it needs a buff. Personally I think elite skills should be strong in their base untraited form, and not require traits to make them elite. BV to me seems to be designed that way. With venom sharing BV can be devastating, but it should be able to turn the tide of battle on its own, without traits. JW, untraited, has the potential to turn a fight in your favour. Just picture it, a 5v5 fight is occuring, when all of a sudden all 5 enemies are stunned. Now BV can do this too, but only if traited, which means you are sacrificing something else to do this.

You are right, you cannot really compare one skill to another, because your entire build should also be considered, but when there are so many variables to take into account, the only thing you can be sure about is the capability of each skill.

I guess, instead of comparing JW vs BV, we should consider whether BV deserves its elite status. It seems clear to me JW does, but I am not so sure BV does. At least in its base form.

I fully agree with you that BV shouldn’t require traits to work (neither should any elite imo). I fully understand that people think it’s underwhelming as an elite. But still, you can’t just buff BV because JW is strong. If you balance a game that way, you would never get a profession balanced as a whole, you would just keep buffing every skill because there’s always something stronger. Either that, or you would end up with all professions having the same skills and basically being the same. Neither of those outcomes are desirable for any of us.

Trying to compare skills this way is basically the same as this:

Kid A got a small piece of candy and look at kid B who got a bigger piece of candy. Kid A asks his mom for a big piece of candy.
Kid B now look over at kid A, who got both a small and a big piece of candy, and ask for another big piece of candy from his mom.
The kids kept on asking their moms for more candy in order to never have less candy than one another, and in the end the devs… Their moms took away all the candy and thiefs aswell as revenants… No, wait, the two kids cried because they had nothing.

Zodryn.4216:

Rezok.2709:

You can’t compare one skill between professions. Following your logic mesmer should get something similar to backstab when they attack from stealth because, well, thiefs got backstab.

Bad analogy. Mesmers already have great (ranged AoE) spike damage, so they don’t need backstab. Typically BV gives us a single target stun for 1s (since it doesn’t stack) while jade wind stuns up to 5 targets for 3s each. That’s 15 times as potent with no cooldown. Venomshare helps, but depends on entire team coordination and a gm trait to even gain 1/3 of the effectiveness of one revenant skill. We aren’t asking for thieves to get Jade Wind, just for reasonable buffs to BV (cast time, stacking etc.).

Bad analogy you say? My whole point was, that you cannot compare one skill to another without looking at the profession as a whole. you seem to disagree with me, yet you start speaking of mesmers ranged AoE spike damage, which is exactly my point: mesmers doesn’t need a backstab, they got something else. I’m not talking about BV being strong or weak, I’m saying you can’t say it needs a buff based on another elite being more powerful.
So apparently, no, it wasn’t a bad analogy. In fact, you seem to agree with my point to some extend.
On the side note – yes, I do think BV could use a buff, but not too much, we wouldn’t want it to be something that secure us kills on everything but bunkers. Just a small buff of some sort.

You can’t compare one skill between professions. Following your logic mesmer should get something similar to backstab when they attack from stealth because, well, thiefs got backstab.

Yes, Jade Wind seems stronger than Basilisk Venom, but that’s no reason to buff BV. You balance a profession around ALL of their abilities, not just because x got a stronger skill than y. Yes, I believe thiefs needs some buffs (and nerfs for some things aswell), but saying one skill needs a buff because another profession got something stronger means you’re not looking at the whole picture.
Revenant haven’t gone live, they might get crap damage compared to thief when HoT comes, or they might have to rely on that ONE elite for control, where thiefs got plenty of control. You simply cannot say BV needs a buff because a profession, that isn’t even done yet, got one skill that’s stronger.

DHawk.2687:

Rezok.2709:

DHawk.2687:

At least for D/x, the immo is kinda useless do to the stability spams

Stability does not affect immobolize, so Panic strike allows you to stay at an enemies back and not allow him to turn around, dodge or flee – which pretty much guarantee a backstab or heartseeker, or force out a cooldown from him.

DHawk.2687:

And executioner is somewhat useless, since (at least for me) if the enemy is at 50% or lower 1 backstab will kill him anyway, no matter those 20%

It allows for high heartseeker, which is faster and easier to land than a backstab for D/P. It also means you can easier AA kill – and imo a good thiefs knows when to use those two instead of backstab. after all, using a black powder > heartseeker gives the enemy a lot of time to see what you are doing and react.
And then obviously 20% damage on enemies below 50% also allows for great shortbow damage (or S/x if you fancy such weapon sets).

Also you did not mention mug, Serpent’s Touch and Lotus Poison – all of which are really great.

Hope this helps you understand why DA is favored by a lot of thiefs

yes i agree that mug is very usefull, i just don’t think that executioner really benefits as much as it seems. I understand the situation you discribed, but i can blindpowder instabackstab faster in most situations then following up with 1 or 2 heartseakers, or even CnD backstab is faster sometimes, i just don’t feel the need for the damage buff becaues it hardly influences the time to kill, well i’ve not noticed it yet to be honet

I’m not saying it’s a bad trait tree, I love mug e.g. and revealed training imo is the strongest trait in that line, but i think it’s mostly not beneficial compared with other lines unless you are just aiming for high numbers

Revealed Training is indeed strong in PvE, but as I mainly play PvP and WvW I always take Panic Strike, as it can secure a few HS or a backstab, which to me is more important than the power Revealed Training provides.
I totally get that it’s not a must have trait line like some people seems to think, I’m currently trying some build with CS instead to see how they work.
As for Executioner, I admit it depends heavily on your playstyle, but if you fight very skilled players, a fight is usually not over just because someone hits 50% health. If you come out of stealth with a strong hit, they will usually try to use whatever they can to survive, like Protection, healing, etc. Think of Executioner as a trait that helps you deny enemy recovery – an important aspect of the thief gameplay, since you can’t stay for long fights, you need to kill them and deny them any chance of keeping themselves alive and fighting. And as I said in previous post, it’s amazing for shortbow aswell.

Keep rocking, thieves!

DHawk.2687:

At least for D/x, the immo is kinda useless do to the stability spams

Stability does not affect immobolize, so Panic strike allows you to stay at an enemies back and not allow him to turn around, dodge or flee – which pretty much guarantee a backstab or heartseeker, or force out a cooldown from him.

DHawk.2687:

And executioner is somewhat useless, since (at least for me) if the enemy is at 50% or lower 1 backstab will kill him anyway, no matter those 20%

It allows for high heartseeker, which is faster and easier to land than a backstab for D/P. It also means you can easier AA kill – and imo a good thiefs knows when to use those two instead of backstab. after all, using a black powder > heartseeker gives the enemy a lot of time to see what you are doing and react.
And then obviously 20% damage on enemies below 50% also allows for great shortbow damage (or S/x if you fancy such weapon sets).

Also you did not mention mug, Serpent’s Touch and Lotus Poison – all of which are really great.

Hope this helps you understand why DA is favored by a lot of thiefs

Mattmatt.4962:

Not really superior since #4earth is on 45sec cd (untraited) and EarthEA cost a lot with nerfed vigor.
And you can do your combo only if the ennemy is close to you when using the #3 leap otherwise the travel time is too long and you can’t do a full combo if you dont finish by the leap.

I do agree that it depends on the situation if you want to use earth #4, but even without that it’s still superior to use earth before water. As for the earth #3, I’ve never had much trouble using it and still have time for water #3, so I guess that’s a matter of skills with position.

Water:
#3 blast on 15 second cooldown

Earth:
Evasive Arcana blast on 10 second cooldown
#3 aura on 12 second cooldown
#4 blast on 45 second cooldown

Earth Evasive Arcana alone makes earth just as good a choice as water – but with potentially another blast and a fire aura. And if you are good you can still do a Ring of Fire > Earth #4, Earth #3 > Water #3 (through this depends on the situation you are in).

It’s also better to use earth first since it gives you protection to migrate enemy burst faster, since burst often will come near the start of a fight.
Another thing is, since you take longer to get into water in the start of a fight you will most likely take more damage before you enter water, allowing you to use water #5 without overhealing to get it on cooldown. The faster that skill is on cooldown, the more times you get to use it in a fight, meaning more healing in the fight.

There is a reason why almost every good elementalist uses Air – Fire – Earth – Water as their main rotation, and only break it for emergencies like in need of water healing. This have been the standard for a long time, and it still is with this patch.

Coldtart.4785:

Linnael.1069:

Fresh air S/F is one of the strongest dueling specs out there. This is not a deniable fact.

That’s the one trick pony aspect I was talking about, and as you say, it’s mostly playable only because of the focus. The only thing that the scepter is really contributing is phoenix and lightning strike for the burst. If it wasn’t for those it would just be inferior in absolutely every way to D/F.

Furthermore, I don’t consider its viability in dueling to be relevant. GW2’s pvp modes are team games, so everything should be judged on its ability to contribute to a team. S/F fresh air contributes a burst and some moderate support, but is severely outclassed by medi guard and D/P thief which have much better support and much better control and mobility respectively, while both have much better sustained damage as well. There is nothing the scepter can do that isn’t outclassed either by another class using a similar build or the other weapons ele can use.

Dueling isn’t the only thing it’s good at. It’s a pretty good set for roaming. It might not be as powerful as D/D for solo roaming, but it’s nice if you like a more bursty approach than D/D celestial.
It’s also pretty nice in small group roaming, where it allows you to do spike damage quite often. Sure a thief could do the same, but they don’t have the utility of elementalists focus or trait lines like Water or Arcane (depending on what you run in your S/F build).
It doesn’t have to be on pair with the best weapons in-game. A lot of weapons are only available in one of the game types, be it PvE, PvP or WvW, and that’s fine IMO. A lot of ele loves it for roaming and find success with it, and that’s enough. We already got D/D as alternative roaming set and PvP and staff for PvE and WvW zergs, I’d rather they make staff PvE more fun than the current fire camping playstyle.

With all that being said, I do like some of the changes you suggest – they would certainly make the weapon more interesting – really like where you are going with some of them, but it’s not necessary to make scepter useful. Right now there is a lot more pressing issues to be fixed. And if it’s just a matter of make it more interesting I’d say other professions weapons are more pressing (thief P/P or warrior rifle), so IMO it should wait till Anet got a lot of “free time” for such stuff.

Mattmatt.4962:

Nope.
Air, Fire, WATER, Earth (for the additionnal blast on W3). At least on the few first rotations (this might get broken by an emergency cleanse/heal requirement)

No, it is Air, Fire, Earth, Water you can get to earth, use #3 and #4 and still make it to water and use #3. Or use Earth Evasive Arcana for a blast finisher instead. This also allows you to take more damage before you hit water, so you won’t overheal yourself (through with current damage I guess that won’t be a problem).
And even if you can’t make it through both earth and water in the fire field, earth is superior since it allows 2 blast finishers and 1 fire aura (#3, #4 and Evasive Arcana).

Well, a lot of build got nerfed across all professions, but at the same time a lot of new builds became available. It’s a nice change if you ask me – I love the new warrior traits.

And about Cleansing Ire and Rousing Resilience in the same tier; I guess it’s because they both are defensive traits. I mean, the fact that you don’t know which one to use means it’s no longer just picking the best trait, since they are both good. You need to pick the one you like the best, which I think is what the devs want – trying to make all traits useful.
I do agree through, that with the nerf to warrior gs mobility, warriors need some new stuff to make us survive

Zalavaaris.5329:

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression, I wasn’t coming here to complain just to get advice. Thanks everyone

First off, thank you for not just yelling for nerfs

Playing both an ele and a necro myself, here is a few tips from the top of my head:

Use something like scepter AA as your opener. If no conditions are applied, he is using Diamond Skin (previous posts explained this trait). This means you will have to somehow get him below 90%, which isn’t easy as a tou/vit/con necro. Look through your skills and see which are best at this (assuming you run Scepter and staff, Shroud skills are probably the best for this).

Strip his boons. This is always important vs D/D ele, but especially vs those with Diamond Skin, since protection and regeneration makes it hard for you to get him below 90%.

Most D/D ele use Air > Fire > Earth > Water > repeat. Water will heal and cleanse conditions, so try to deal enough damage in between his water to not allow his health to go above 90% again. Also save your strong conditions for after water so they will stay for longer before he get’s to cleanse them again (beware; most D/D got great cleanse on utility too)

As previous posts says, it is a hardcounter to your build, but hey, nothing is impossible Keep rocking your necromancer!

Lupanic.6502:

Checked the internet and found some build planer for the new patch. But it looks like I can only take 3 trait lines and in this trait lines I take something like 6/6/6/0/0

Is this correct?

Yes, this is correct. In the new trait system, provided you want to use all your traits at 80, you will have to pick 3 trait lines, and you will not be able to use the other 2 trait lines at all at the same time. All 3 of those trait lines will be maxed out, giving you a total of 18 trait points as opposed to the 14 trait points you currently have. Also, the stats in each trait line are getting removed and put elsewhere (higher stats on gear and higher base stats IIRC).