Guild Wars 2

I’m sorry but I thought the name of the post was “State of Guardian,” not “State of Dragon Hunter.” Point being, if a guard uses anything but Long Bow he doesn’t stand a chance. With longbow, well….you might have a chance against scrubs. Either way, I’d say Guardians in general are in a sad state when compared to some of the other professions and their elites.

Guardians have a right to be this frustrated imo

Excellent post, but you might want to try posting this in the pvp forums so it gets noticed by a dev. Even then probably wishful thinking.

•Guardian received the only F tier vote
•Guardian’s highest vote was C tier

Pretty much says it all…

So I was a long time Guardian player before HOT. I pretty much left the game once my beloved profession turned into a panzy ranger wannabe. Anyways, I occasionally peruse the forums and was hoping to see some decent positive changes for us Guardians, but I see things haven’t changed much in the way the devs see the profession. Sadly, I think Nike might be right in that they have a certain vision for Guardians, and unfortunately, that vision isn’t shared by most of the Guardian community (IMO).

I also agree that if you want to let the devs know how you feel, stop playing the profession, or like me, take the extreme step of stop playing the game in its entirety. It’s unacceptable that after all these years the same problems persist (Signets, spirit weapons, consecrations, weapon skills, etc.). I lost hope a year ago, and it’s quite evident there is no hope in the near future for this profession.

Also, I find it kind of funny that I still see the same fanboys supporting ANETs decisions regarding Guardians as when I left….and you know who you are. I said it then, and I say it now, you are supporting mediocrity to your detriment.

Drennon, it’s like you are reading my mind. Thank you sir…sometimes I read these forums and wonder if some of these guys want guardians to be in a “good place” forever, i.e. past over by the power creep.

There is literally a poll on the pvp forum of the best/worst elites and DH is consistently on the bottom in most polls, yet for some reason I keep seeing the same players praising this abomination as if it were the 2nd coming….

Oh I didn’t know that…no offense intended mate.

Isarri, I would agree with you if I felt that a perfectly written, non redundant post would make any difference in the world. There have been many exceptional posts on this forum giving recommendations on how to make guardian and DH better. Yet still, spirits suck, signets suck, scepter still misses, sword still misses, torch still has los issues, shield still sucks (imo, even after the supposed “buff,” but we shall see), overall dps was nerfed for no reason with the trait changes, DH got traps?, etc., etc. etc.

Will the post get delete, probably. But as I stated, I understand the OP’s frustration.

All threads here are full of QQ, in fact most threads in all MMO’s are full of QQ. The real question is whether it’s warranted. In this case, in my humble opinion, it is.

Nike, I think for the first time I actually agree with you. I guess the problem is that it shouldn’t be this way. As a fan of Guild Wars 2, it sucks that after a long awaited expansion, I feel I have nothing to look forward to when it comes to my main (Guardian).

Obviously this is subjective, but it appears I’m not alone. Now, I’ve started doing exactly what you said, I’ve been trying to main another profession (Ranger) because I like the idea of playing a druid/healer and want to be prepared. And let me tell you, if a noob ranger like me can go into matches and own guardians from half way across the map like I’ve been doing these past couple of days, something is very wrong.

Isarii.2804:

Well that was certainly marginally intelligible, I suppose. That’s not “a point”, it’s an overly dramatic rambling whine, never quite forming into a coherent thought. I can’t imagine why you thought this deserved to be reposted as its own thread in place of something constructive.

Whatever dude….op’s frustration is felt by many. In fact, I would go far as to say you are in the minority.

Again….prepare for the white knights to inundate this thread. OP, I feel your frustration. The power creep has passed us by at least two fold.

Our elite sucks, our elite name sucks, and are dev….well, I won’t go there.

Ragnarox.9601:

Sauncho.8076:

Prepare for the Karl/Anet white knights to inundate this thread at any moment proclaiming how excited they are with the DH, and how we are all wrong and crying over nothing…

Oh cmon, you know what’s coming, more cd reductions and buffing attacks by 5% xD

I literally lol….

Prepare for the Karl/Anet white knights to inundate this thread at any moment proclaiming how excited they are with the DH, and how we are all wrong and crying over nothing…

I’m glad to see that players are now realizing how bad this elite really is…this is what happens when ppl perpetuate the notion, “Guardians are in a good spot.”

Seems like guardians and druids switched roles, wherein Druids can support and we are now back line support, except we got the short end of the stick.

Obtena.7952:

^^ Don’t worry, you are wrong. Nothing has made Guardian class irrelevant. If HoT is the challenging content Anet says it will be, people won’t shy away from it.

My previous post was directed towards spvp. If you are referring to Raids in pve, then I agree with you.

Misguided.5139:

Guardian’s role isn’t being diluted. If anything it will be more important because of how well it complements Revenant.

Your name is quite ironic…if you think guardians will compliment Revenants then you are truly misguided. Why bring a guard when you can bring a thief, 2 x eles, and a mesmer along with the Revenant.

However, in all honesty I hope I am wrong and you are right.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Whether Dragonhunter is “good” or not is an opinion. Just because you dislike it doesn’t mean the idea or execution is bad. It’s okay to like good things. Kale tastes terrible and yet with some garlic and oil it makes conditions I inflict last longer. Dragonhunter does what it set out to do. You don’t have to like any aspect of DH for it to accomplish what it’s supposed to do.

Sauncho.8076:

I made a post titled “Sorry boys….we got the shaft.” Of course that was locked.

Sounds like you’ve learned nothing from the experience. If it was obvious the thread would be locked, couldn’t you have phrased yourself differently?

Arnath.2319:

I enjoy eating pizza, doesn’t mean it’s good for me.

Continuing with your analogy, maybe you’re eating the wrong kind of pizza. Pizza itself isn’t automatically unhealthy.

I was ticked off and really it doesn’t matter anymore, 2 1/2 years of recommendations on these forums and hardly any QOL changes.

Obtena, are you defending traps just to defend traps, or are you really excited about them. I ask because I just don’t see how anyone can be excited about dragonhunter. From the name, to the traitline, to the bow, to me it’s all been a hot mess. Of course you can get anything to work in very specific circumstances, however that does not mean traps are mostly effective, and more importantly fun to play.

I do appreciate your optimism however, but I lost hope about 1 1/2 years ago as most of the guardian QOL issues have not been addressed. Seems to me most of the dev focus has been on Rev, and we were left with this abomination (that’s just my opinion though).

If you are using traps then you are a complete scrub….end of story.

I made a post titled “Sorry boys….we got the shaft.” Of course that was locked. Regardless, I still feel the same way. From the name of our “elite,” to the elite trait line, to the longbow, to the shield, to spirit weapons, to signets, to the sword missing, strafing our orbs, and everything else, it’s just sickening.

I have literally been using the same heal (shelter), same elite (renewed focus), and the same 3 medi utilities for the past 2 years. And now I have this kitten to look forward too? Please….And all Obtena has to say is, “don’t play it then.” Give me a break.

Say what u will, as of the writing of this topic dragonkitten is complete garbage…

Title says it all….Dragonhunter, like the name, is a complete joke. Especially when compared to other professions. I don’t even care to write out a well thought out response as to why, because it won’t make one bit of difference. But at least “we are in a good spot.”

Are you new to the game? This is ANET SOP (standard operating procedure).

I don’t know, I haven’t had any issues dealing with burn guardians. Probably the same reason I have yet to see any burn guardians in higher levels of competition. It’s not a coincidence.

That’s because med is mediocre when compared to Mesmers, Eles, and Rampaging Warriors.

Burning is a one trick pony that only works on players who don’t bring condi cleanses.

I agree with the amulet comment. Losing the ability to gain attributes from our trait tree hurt our class the most IMHO, and the PVP amulets don’t adequately compensate.

I won’t list pros and cons as they are pretty much covered. But my general feeling is this, for the most part we stayed the same, maybe a bit nerfed (spvp).

The so called “burn meta” is a one trick pony, i.e. will only work on scrubs who don’t bring condi clears. Bunkers are outclassed by Ele’s, and medi hammer is no longer feasible due to the placement of glacial heart on the trait tree.

Signets are still garbage, spirit weapons are still garbage, shouts are ok, however are mostly used in support/bunker builds (see above for bunker feasibility). Shield is still garbage, scepter is still too slow, hammer is still too slow, Littany of Wrath still can’t compete with shelter, and none of the other elites still can compete with renewed focus (Spvp). And yes, Anet continues to force Retaliation on us for some unknown reason.

This is the reason why most guardians are coming back to the standard med dps build. The only problem with this is most of the other classes were buffed to such a degree it’s harder to compete. You will get insta gibbed by Mesmer, Necros can tank your damage forever, Warriors can one shot you if you miss a blind/block during Rampage, and Eles will win a war of attrition against you.

Maybe the bow will be our saving grace, that is if your willing to spend the $50.00 to get it.

Drennon.7190:

Seems like everyone is having about the same luck. I feel like everything I do on DPS guard, I can do better on my thief/Mesmer/warrior

I agree, yet you will still have players come here and say that we are fine. This mentality of “we are in a good spot” is why we are subpar.

“Notable Counters
•-D/D Fire/Arcana/Water Elementalists is your biggest counter. If they go Earth and use Diamond Skin, it just means they’re making fun of you and everything you represent. Just ignore them at all costs in a 1v1 stand off.
•-Engineer’s CC abilities, their Healing Turret cleansing 3 conditions, and the rng condi cleansing trait of theirs can counterplay you if you’re not careful. Their mobility in general is your Achilles heel and you’ll likely never beat a good Engineer player 1v1.
•-Absolute Resolution Medi Guards. Your only choice is to kite them the best you can, work around their cleanses (if you can) and not eat all their spin-to-win attacks to the face.
•-Perma stealthing Mesmers. Mainly the fact they can kite you all day while their clones removes all your blocks. I would avoid them in 1v1 stand offs.
•-Perma stealthing Thieves. The fact they can reset battle with stealth alone means they’ll out sustain you, eventually.
•*-Necro’s Condition transfers. If you’re not careful, you’ll likely kill yourself with your own burns.”

Thank you for the guide….however my problem is the “notable counters,” i.e. most of the players I come across are these notable counters., especially the mesmers.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

I don’t understand this at all.

Also why is blinding dissipation still allowed to blind through dodges?

I’m all for the class being viable, but this class is just simply too strong, they’re not fun to play against at all.

Everytime there’s more than 3 mesmers in a game, i just leave instantly, because it just will not be a fun match, they are genuinely sapping the fun out of the game for anyone who is not playing one.

Prepared to be flamed by countless Mesmers who will defend their class even in the face of both objective and subjective reality….incoming!!!!!

SnowCow.5914:

Dps guards, have some nice new tools like Smiters Boon on heal and immob on justice activation in the radiance line, but our 300+ armor pre-patch is surely missed, but that can be some what made up with Strength in Numbers . That if you play GS, I’m sorry for the hammer dps users tho, with having Glacial Heart in the same line as Absolute Resolution. I believe they should’ve just put it back in valor where it actually be used and not compete with Absolute Resolution.

Condi guard on the other hand is more fun than ever, but it’s a janky build and shouldn’t be used a actual serious play.

As for Bunker guards, to me, it’s still in question if it’s actually viable in high level play. I mean we did get some nice tools and trait spreads, but the question I always keep telling myself “Why play support guard when you can just ele and do EVERYTHING AND MORE!” Kitten, they even can 1vX far better due to stone heart being a thing. Simple answer “Feel my Wraith,” This single skill alone is only thing that’s holding bunker guard in. Cause no other other class can supply group quickness so often at key moments to make big plays. One could argue about the rezzing too but with mesmer, thiefs, and necros hovering over that nearly dead teammate you got there is gonna give you a bad time… Considering those classes, bunking is much more harder/active abet funner now. 13k hp clerics but with lots of healing, oh boy better learn to dodge and have the reflexes to stun break/block cause you’re now borderline 1 shot material.

As for condi management, it’s takes a different approach. With the way condi stacks up, you have too not cleanse so aggressively. Wait for condi to stack up a bit then cleanse when they reach that threatening threshold. That’s just for the ones that do damage, I’ll remove immob right away is I see it on my teammates if I can sense a burst incoming like a mesmer’s immob.

It being much harder to 1vX now, it’s wise to always be around allies to take advantage of AH. Teammates gotta also let you rotate to team as usual how bunker guard rotations work. Almost 90% of my play time is on guard after patch, I’ve played and place in top 3 in many ESLs and mistpedias on my guard when bunker guards were still a thing before cele meta. It’s a class/role I grow to find very engaging to play in-spite of many naysayers. I feel you brother about being outshine by other professions. There’s still those occasional bugs that needs to be fix like every other class, but I’m pretty sure those will be weaved out soon enough.

Hopefully…

TL:DR “Why guard when you can just ele and do EVERYTHING AND MOAR!”
ANSWER: “FEEL MY WRAITH” nerf this, bye bye guards… burn guards lulz

Thanks guys….very informative!

Just wondering how you guardians are doing out there post patch (SPVP related). What are your general impressions? Any general comments when it comes to Bunker / Med DPS / Support / etc? The patch has been out a couple of weeks now and I’m wondering what guardians are doing to adapt.

My general impressions are negative, but I’m not the best player in the world. I feel like burst and bunkering are still outshined by other professions, and speccing burn is a one trick pony. Again, just my opinion. If any of you elite guards had any success and are willing to share builds it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

So now I have to spend another month being insta gibbed by mesmers and clearing a half dozen condis every 3 seconds? Am I missing something?

The amount of condi’s flying around now is out of control. They are applied, I remove, they are re-applied in seconds. And instead of being DOT (damage over time), they are used like burst and melt you down in a matter of seconds.

Playing whack a mole condi removal is not fun. All my utilities need to be condi clear, which of course limits build diversity.

There is no longer a feeling of having the familiar archetype roles anymore. Burst, sustain, support, tank, etc. It’s glass dps/burst or condi/burst, or gt-fo. This is not fun to me and hate to think what it’s going to be like when Revenant comes on the scene.

OP, I think you missed the boat on this one. When the news of the new trait system first came out these forums exploded with outcries from people complaining about it destroying diversity. And mathematically, there is no denying it does.

Unfortunately, this is the path most MMOs go as it’s easier to balance. WOW is a perfect example. WOW used to have a big talent tree that at least gave the illusion of diversity, now its just a shell of its former self where each class has like one or two builds. It sucks I know, and I feel your pain.

Arken.3725:

You’re right, the name doesn’t really fit the theme of the Guardian profession. I just think the name itself is kind of neat and that’s it. I was honestly hoping for something like Justicar, Winged Knight or even Vanquisher to name a few.

Oh thank god….I feel better now. Thanks!!!!!

@ Obtena and Arken, I am kind of disappointed in both of you. Both of you are relatively well known in the Guardian community and both of you like the name “DragonHunter?” Ugh….I’m not sure what to think.

It’s easy to come up with some kitten lore about guardians answering the call to kill dragons with arrows, but in reality, it just doesn’t fit the theme of what a guardian is…

“protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory.”

DragonHunters will still have 2/3 Guardian traits. So why then are we changing the theme of the class?

Nike.2631:

Genesis.8572:

The name also feels very disassociated from the core concepts of the ‘guardian’ profession. Why is the ‘guardian’ even being imagined as a ‘big game hunter’ in the first place?

Because its NOT A GUARDIAN?

Fundamental issues here. New profession icon. New weapon. New utility skill set. If you choose to you can make your entire skill tray have ZERO overlap with any guardian ever.

It’s not the same profession and that they’ve come up with something people think is so far from the base by swapping 1/3 of their trait lines that is a monumental resounding success in design.

Not a Guardian? Wait what….. am I misunderstanding something. I thought in HOT we were going to be choosing 3 trait lines out of six (one of which being the new DragonHunter trait line). That means if you did pick the DragonHunter trait line, the other 2 are still guardian specific trait lines (valor, honor, etc.). The DragonHunter trait line comes with additional perks of having the bow and additional utilities.

So doesn’t that mean your still a Guardian, just with some additional “goodies?” How is there “zero overlap with any guardian ever?”

phokus.8934:

I want this thread to be archived for when this goes live and people do a 180 about this specialization. Or I’ll be eating my own words.

What more were you all expecting? Guardians lacked a true range weapon and longbow, so far, is fulfilling that. We will certainly know more tomorrow about all of the skills and utilities so hang in there.

In regards to the long range weapon, I hope your right. It just seems from what I read and saw the longbow plays more of a support role as opposed to a ranged “weapon.” I hope I am wrong and it does both, we shall see.

I guess my problem is I didn’t main a Guardian to play like a Ranger. If I wanted to play like a Ranger, then I would have main’d a Ranger.

We shall see how it pans out though…I still hate the name though.

“then again. I guess fighting the Shatter’s toe is kinda the same thing. "

This made me lol….

If you like this generic kitten name you should go apply to work for ANET. I’m sure you’d fare well.

How a group of developers could sit around a table and come up with the name “Dragonhunter” is beyond me. And how a boss could sign off on it is beyond words.

No wonder Guardians have been “in a good place” forever and a day. These guys don’t have a clue. And now traps?

Iozeph.5617:

“Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?"

And just what in this game is high end? The same dungeons everyone has been running for the last two or more years? Or the same fractals everyone has been running for a bit less than that? It certainly couldn’t be world bosses. Near every aspect of play in this game -as in going out and hunting monsters- is built around inclusiveness. So I don’t see what that’s about.

As for the trait changes themselves it seems to be the same brand of doublespeak that was thrown about before the trait system revamp of Lord of The Rings Online.

There, as it seems now here, it was bandied about that there was, ‘skill bloat’ ‘too many traits’ and that it confused players. So they simplified it. They gave us trait trees, stripped some out, and gated certain skills, once utilised regardless of traiting, behind individual trees whilst making it restrictive to hybridise as before. All in the interest of ‘focusing class roles’ and making it ‘simpler to implement and balance group oriented content’ None of which ever materialised. And yet those class changes stuck. The upshot? Beyond griping, or holding its current incarnation up for ridicule, nobody talks about lotro anymore. So few that lotro is all but abandoned by its former community.

If you’ve played through a few of these games- and their changes over the years you begin to gain a feel for what’s coming- or rather see familiar patterns reasserting themselves- things which factor in whenever someone asks you, “Why did you leave your last game?”

What I’ve read today is that trait lines will be changed, skills will be changed to make choosing them more compelling, but there again I only hear doublespeak with as hyper, positive, and as hard a sell as possible to make readers ignore/forget the past as well as whatever current feelings of dread they might be experiencing. It isn’t working.

Making it such that I’m no longer able to choose three adept skills, two adepts and a master, or one adept and two masters isn’t making the choices to come more compelling. Having it such that I’m stuck with three trait lines rather than the ability to distribute points as I see fit within and up to as many as five lines isn’t widening my scope of choice. Making it so that after these changes my choice of armour attribute(berserk, knights, carrion, cleric’s etc.) will further exalt me or make me a pariah to a community that will even more heavily embrace meta equipment builds afterward isn’t enticing me toward anything more than choosing some other option for how I spend my free time.

After these changes demands for pinging armour/gear will be that much more strident as your build will no longer be the abilities you choose but rather what your character is wearing.

What’s happening is that by dint of a system which, in future, will be much more restrictive, I’m going to be compelled to choose something which I won’t necessarily want or need in order to be included. Something wrong with that as the current appeal for this game is in having the ability to log in, join a queue, and then get into something group-oriented quickly, and without much fuss. This, even with the current dungeoning environment being as toxic as it is.

So how is making it more toxic a good or even better thing?

The quality of finding something compelling- or alluring, is not the same as being compelled- or forced against one’s will. But here we’re being given the latter sold as the former.

And hey- I’ll say it. Hang gliders aren’t that cool either.

…extremely well said

Solori.6025:

Sauncho.8076:

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

They explicitly said they’re going to do their best to support currently existing builds under the new system.

That being said, “SO”? We’ll likely lose some builds, we’ll likely gain some builds.

Even more likely there will be old builds that still exist that are overwhelmed by new builds and made obsolete

We can’t treat any build like it’s sancrosanct or special, as long as the general style continues to exist and be viable

they will lose a lot of builds, thats a given.

And there will be a lot less possibility.
They may increase the amount of super top end builds from by a factor of two, but they will kill a tone of middle ground builds by a much larger margin. They will also like force synergies
truth is, the options will be far less.

first of all there are only 10 possible specialization choices in the core
then there are only 27 possibilities to choose for any one line.

many of these choices will likely have no synergy with some builds.

like you wont take anything dagger related within a trait line if you dont use dagger.

so out of those 27 possibilities, a great many will be false choices.

so yeah, a lot less builds by far.

now, you my think that is ok, as long as you get a few more top end choices. But lets not kid ourselves, a lot of viable builds will die. there is noway around it.

True, but how many of those will be replaced.

How many middle ground builds are there that perform at a subpar level when compared to the high end builds

It’s why I asked the question earlier if you missed it.

Maybe all of this will be answered tomorrow?

reducing possibilities will never increase variability. Thats not actually possible.
making better traits MAY increase high end variability, but making better traits has nothing to do with how many possibilities exist.

If any new better builds exist, it will be because they made some traits better, thats it.

But how many variables are viable?

This is my main concern and what I hopefully portrayed in my earlier question.

You can for example have a 6/4/1/3 that is outperformed by a 6/4/0/4
Under the new system you lose the 6/4/1/3 but have a better build because you get to choose 6/6/0/6
and have access to two new grandmasters.

Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?
( not an actual number but you get my point right?)

We lose a lot of builds for a focused few.

If you feel you lose builds that perform on the same level or better than the current builds listed as meta, then bring them forth ( I use you as a general you, not directed towards any one person)
If we have a list (hopefully a large one) of builds that are viable ( When I use viable i mean a build that contributes significantly in a group setting) and have no replacement or modification with the new system then maybe we wont have to wait a year like we have for them to fix it. ( new player experience which should have been fixed 3 months after it was released because it is horrible, in my opinion of course.)

As a community assume the changes are going to happen. Instead of yelling at the screen about how you lose choices show the choices that you lose are significant, and have no alternative.
If you come up with a thread full of viable builds that have no replacement or alternative with the new system do you really think arenanet as a company that needs players to continue to function will ignore you?

“and have access to two new grandmasters.”

This assumes you want the two new grandmasters. Because as it stands now (as a guardian) I’d rather have one grandmaster and two majors. Can’t do that anymore.

Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

If you feel that your build choice that’s getting removed wont be replaced by another viable option then show it. Explain why ( like I have) and lets stat compiling a list.

“Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?”

Freedom of choice…freedom to choose wrong/garbage builds…freedom to experiment. The freedom to choose is more important to me than “quality.” It’s kind of the American Way. I can choose to got to McDonalds, Jack in the Box, In N Out, Whattaburger, Mid Range Restaurant, Expensive Restaurant, etc., as opposed to being forced to going to Restaurant A because communist country said it was the best for me.

Teon.5168:

Sauncho.8076:

Regardless of whether everyone uses 6/6/1(2) builds (which I don’t think is inherently true), this new system will absolutely kill the perception of diversity. You can’t dispute math. The argument is of course that only 5-10% of available builds in the old system are actually useful. And this is absolutely true, but at least you have some choice to divert if you want to. That’s really the whole point, if I want to run into a quick pvp match with a 4/4/4/2 build, I should be able to even if it is complete garbage. Now I won’t be able to.

This new change to the trait trees are exactly how WOW runs there tree now, and seems to be the trend in most MMOs. The thing I liked most about GW2 when it first came out was shear number of available points I had to use in the trait trees as opposed to what WOW changed to after Cataclysm. Then of course GW2 reduced the number of points allocated for traits last year, and now it looks like they are going to completely streamline it (noobify it) in HoT.

I mean I get, it has to be a lot easier to balance with this new approach, but I still don’t like it.

I couldn’t disagree more. You state your opinion as if it were fact. It is not. My opinion is that this change will open a whole slew of new balance problems.

I hope I am wrong. I am excited about the changes. But if they’re implemented badly, this game will have a whole new set of issues when it comes to balance and the nerf bat.

The only reason I think it will be easier to balance is because there will be less builds to balance. Again, you can’t dispute math. As stated however, I still don’t like less options even if they are perceived.

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

They explicitly said they’re going to do their best to support currently existing builds under the new system.

That being said, “SO”? We’ll likely lose some builds, we’ll likely gain some builds.

Even more likely there will be old builds that still exist that are overwhelmed by new builds and made obsolete

We can’t treat any build like it’s sancrosanct or special, as long as the general style continues to exist and be viable

they will lose a lot of builds, thats a given.

And there will be a lot less possibility.
They may increase the amount of super top end builds from by a factor of two, but they will kill a tone of middle ground builds by a much larger margin. They will also like force synergies
truth is, the options will be far less.

first of all there are only 10 possible specialization choices in the core
then there are only 27 possibilities to choose for any one line.

many of these choices will likely have no synergy with some builds.

like you wont take anything dagger related within a trait line if you dont use dagger.

so out of those 27 possibilities, a great many will be false choices.

so yeah, a lot less builds by far.

now, you my think that is ok, as long as you get a few more top end choices. But lets not kid ourselves, a lot of viable builds will die. there is noway around it.

True, but how many of those will be replaced.

How many middle ground builds are there that perform at a subpar level when compared to the high end builds

It’s why I asked the question earlier if you missed it.

Maybe all of this will be answered tomorrow?

reducing possibilities will never increase variability. Thats not actually possible.
making better traits MAY increase high end variability, but making better traits has nothing to do with how many possibilities exist.

If any new better builds exist, it will be because they made some traits better, thats it.

But how many variables are viable?

This is my main concern and what I hopefully portrayed in my earlier question.

You can for example have a 6/4/1/3 that is outperformed by a 6/4/0/4
Under the new system you lose the 6/4/1/3 but have a better build because you get to choose 6/6/0/6
and have access to two new grandmasters.

Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?
( not an actual number but you get my point right?)

We lose a lot of builds for a focused few.

If you feel you lose builds that perform on the same level or better than the current builds listed as meta, then bring them forth ( I use you as a general you, not directed towards any one person)
If we have a list (hopefully a large one) of builds that are viable ( When I use viable i mean a build that contributes significantly in a group setting) and have no replacement or modification with the new system then maybe we wont have to wait a year like we have for them to fix it. ( new player experience which should have been fixed 3 months after it was released because it is horrible, in my opinion of course.)

As a community assume the changes are going to happen. Instead of yelling at the screen about how you lose choices show the choices that you lose are significant, and have no alternative.
If you come up with a thread full of viable builds that have no replacement or alternative with the new system do you really think arenanet as a company that needs players to continue to function will ignore you?

“and have access to two new grandmasters.”

This assumes you want the two new grandmasters. Because as it stands now (as a guardian) I’d rather have one grandmaster and two majors. Can’t do that anymore.

Regardless of whether everyone uses 6/6/1(2) builds (which I don’t think is inherently true), this new system will absolutely kill the perception of diversity. You can’t dispute math. The argument is of course that only 5-10% of available builds in the old system are actually useful. And this is absolutely true, but at least you have some choice to divert if you want to. That’s really the whole point, if I want to run into a quick pvp match with a 4/4/4/2 build, I should be able to even if it is complete garbage. Now I won’t be able to.

This new change to the trait trees are exactly how WOW runs there tree now, and seems to be the trend in most MMOs. The thing I liked most about GW2 when it first came out was shear number of available points I had to use in the trait trees as opposed to what WOW changed to after Cataclysm. Then of course GW2 reduced the number of points allocated for traits last year, and now it looks like they are going to completely streamline it (noobify it) in HoT.

I mean I get, it has to be a lot easier to balance with this new approach, but I still don’t like it.

Leo G.4501:

Sauncho.8076:

Zaklex.6308:

This is pointless, reread the blog post…trait points will be non-existent…that is one of the reasons they’re going from 5 -3 trait lines. Also, if you had bothered to read both blog posts, when you chose your Elite specialization you can chose to use the other 2 trait lines that you couldn’t use the first time. You can choose 3 of the 5 lines, without having to put points in them…that is what it says. The rest you can argue about until you’re blue in the face.

Hmm…I don’t understand this. Whether there are points to spend or not, you still are forced to use traits in only those 3 lines you choose. Whereas now you can diversify into all five. That’s why so many are upset.

Also, it appears there will be only nine major traits per line, and yet you can only choose one of three per tier.

I’d somewhat agree with you. A few of my character builds tend to dip in and out of trait lines to gain access to a few gems, thus sacrificing some specialization to get a desired effect. My Warrior can’t use full Strength, some Arms and vary points into Defense/Discipline. Now I have to decide do I want Defense line or Discipline.

BUT, l looking further into my build, rather than see what I can’t do, examine WHY I did what I did…

Strength, I max for the trait Burst Precision as well as either Slashing Power if I’m usuing my power build or whatever else if I’m using my hybrid power/condi build. The extra damage from the stats help for damage as do the minor traits but the rest of the line is more or less a necessity for BP.

Arms, I don’t care much for the GM traits so only go 2 major which are crucial. For the bleed on crit/bleed duration/damage bonus for sword on my hybrid build or Crack Shot/Forceful Greatsword on my power build. The minor traits are a bit wasted though.

Defense, also crucial, as being able to drop in Dogged March has saved me tons of escapes, Cleansing Ire and/or Sure Footed brings flavor to his build…

Discipline is usually there for the extra ferocity when using a power build + warrior’s sprint or signet mastery.

Now, with the de-coupling of the stats from the traits, that removes part of the reason I use Discipline and devalues Strength line a bit since my hybrid likely doesn’t need the strength tree at all. I could forsee going full into arms (no 100% crit on bursts which might hurt a bit but gives me access to other things such as increased crit on bursts. I might be able to turn his build into a quickness build instead!

With the power build, I might lose out on either discipline or defense but I stand to gain more than I lose. Slower recharges for my weapon swap, signets or slower run for a variety of defensive options such as Defy Pain or maybe Spiked Armor if they make it not suck!

With the ability to equip 3 grandmaster traits (especially if they are improved), that trumps practically all minor diversions into another trait line. As far as losing the ability to use multiple master/adept traits, that’s yet to be seen. I’m not 100% sure that was even stated.

All I can say is I’m optimistic but I’d like to wait and see what develops.

I can appreciate the optimism in ANET’s ability to deliver on three worthwhile grandmasters. I, on the other hankitten ot so optimistic based on the last three years and having main’d a guardian. There was on only one grand master I ever used, Monk’s Focus. Now, I will be forced to use 3 GMs, even if I’d rather use an adept or major from a 4th/5th line.

Sunshine.5014:

From gears/amulets. Everyone’s base stats are also increased to 1000. Which means we can all be less traits dependent. If you want vit, you can freely get a Soldier amulet now, while keeping all your new 3 grand master traits!

Sometimes I like the option of not using all three grandmasters. That’s the problem. With HoT I will have to. Sometimes it’s better to use an adept or major trait instead of a grandmaster from a 4th/5th line.