Guild Wars 2

I wish we knew! I’m hanging onto Proofs of Heroics and unopened Skirmish Chests just in case.

This is the exact build I’ve been sharing in various threads….it is indeed quite functional and fun!

Can’t be noticed?!? It’s a giant golden globe of run from me fast.

It’s rather infuriating, especially when I’m desperate for a burst or condi clear with arcing slice which is subsequently wasted on thin air.

Anyone else notice this missing, a lot? Been struggling with it in PvP and now it just happened in WvW.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAnXRjMdQVI22BmdAnIGICK9Lm+YwCgIonxW/FGBA-TZxHQBA4QAEwzAwAeAAXrMgG2fAA

Only thing giving me real fits is block and stability heavy DHs and a good necro.

Just because statistical principles exist doesn’t mean they apply or are even being applied. It’s not a static environment, there’s a number of variables and each variable has a number of possible values. Given enough replicates, yes, it can be modeled. However, you’re never going to accurately account for the values and variables generated by the individual. They’re infinite and sporadic. The system we have has chosen a number of variables deemed adequate and gone with them. They’re not adequate.

We’re also not in an infinite generator. All things being equal around the average you have a high probability of eventually getting the average. First of all, they’re not equal and second of all, amassing a number of replicates that accurately hovers on the average is rare if not impossible.

What you’re implying is that in 10 placement matches you’re going to accurately get the average. Impossible. The average you do get immediately becomes part of your algorithm. Now, let’s say you get….high gold. You play another 10 matches with teammates that just ranked gold as well, the algorithm is going to handle the variables it has for you the best it can with what’s in the que, but it’s inherently imperfect because it really has no idea if any of you are legit gold or not because it only has a sample size of 10.

Now, if one of you is not legit gold, they are going to hide amongst legit gold for quite some time, that time likely related to the variables the algorithm doesn’t account for: class competency, ability to read the map, latency, skill clicking, nose picking, lack of sammiches from mom, etc. Given an infinite number of generations you would begin to approach the average, these generations are not available.

The inverse is true, as well. If four of you are not legit gold the entire team is going to fall accordingly. Now, the legit gold is swirling the drain working against relatively insurmountable odds because he’s hiding amongst silvers. The variables the algorithm accounts for keeps him there while the variables it doesn’t account for: understands the map, can do basic math, can read a comp, doesn’t need sammiches from mom cause they’re a big kid. Given an infinite number of generations he would approach the average, these generations are not available.

This continues in runs of for simplicity sake 10 and the result of every 10 is the sum of the parts which is the team, you can’t get away from it and it is in no way whatsoever an accurate measure of personal rank.

Now, my original point wasn’t related to personal rank whatsoever. I only care about personal rank as it relates to where the crappy system we just discussed decides I belong. What I wanted to talk about was why another system isn’t suitable. Your “personal rank” is still going to be a function of the variables around you. If I que with two plats that carry me, it’s no different than getting into plat with the crappy algorithm. By your logic your personal effect on the team, given infinite generations, is going to produce the average anyhow….

megilandil.7506:

Tinnel.4369:

megilandil.7506:

said many times, ranked is for building a personal rank, team qing (duo included) only shadows your gaming skills whith the ones of your friends. Only form of calculating that personal rank is pure solo random q.
ways for team playing have to be implemented, there are now AT but this isnt enought it seems for the ones who want to play in teams, if a ranked team play exist have to be for ranking teams without afectation to individual score and for estable teams, pug teams have no sense in any sort of team ranked

Personal rank in a team based environment where your success depends on at least 60% of your team being on close to the same page?!? If you think this results in accurately calculating personal rank….. Let the absurdity of this argument sink in for at least a second. Now that it’s sunk in, realize that this is what ANet has determined as “good”. Your personal rank is tied directly to your team…..

My gaming skills are being shadowed, no drowned, by the average of at least 2-3 boneheads I end up stuck with. The only accurate way to calculate personal rank/ability is in a 1v1 environment.

Ranked is also the only source for pip’d rewards and ascension achievements which is a primary reason it becomes jam packed with people that have no clue what to do and no desire to improve as long as the rewards roll in. Shockingly, there is a large majority of players that would like to earn these AND have a real shot at winning.

another: i lose cuz the others are bad i play no fault

this is a false argument, in a pure random solo q you get your doze of boneheads, your doze of decent players and your doze of better than you players and that is what determine your rank, the times that you can carry the bonneheads and the times you drag down the better than you players.

In a team q format the skill of members have a tendence to throw a illusory mid term rank of “real skills”, the good ones boost the bad ones and those drag down the good ones.
the 1v1 solution is not in a game where classes are important, some classes at a true equal skill level have low odds to beat others, in a 1v1 system you can determine who is the better guard , warrior… or the most boring ele or druid but not the best player

So, like you just said “in a pure random solo q you get your doze of boneheads, your doze of decent players and your doze of better than you players and that is what determine your rank”. This is not personal rank, this is rank of random chance of what you get in the que, by your own words it’s obvious that you understand even if you still haven’t figured it out for yourself yet. The law of averages doesn’t apply when the parameters aren’t identical on each sample.

Further, this "In a team q format the skill of members have a tendence to throw a illusory mid term rank of “real skills”, the good ones boost the bad ones and those drag down the good ones." Is exactly what is happening in solo que and producing the ranking frustrations we have. Do you read this stuff before you post it? It doesn’t matter how good or bad I am in solo que, the outcome is a sum of the parts, the parts of course being, THE TEAM!!!!

“Get good and carry” is a nonsensical argument that is at best situationally functional. It’s a team based play mode.

You further make my case for me with “some classes at a true equal skill level have low odds to beat others, in a 1v1 system you can determine who is the better guard , warrior… or the most boring ele or druid but not the best player” ANet determines our comps for us and when the majority of your team can’t read the comp and switch to another class accordingly that should obviously be reflected in your rank…….

Weeeehoooo, I’m starting to understand the general PvP mentality now.

megilandil.7506:

said many times, ranked is for building a personal rank, team qing (duo included) only shadows your gaming skills whith the ones of your friends. Only form of calculating that personal rank is pure solo random q.
ways for team playing have to be implemented, there are now AT but this isnt enought it seems for the ones who want to play in teams, if a ranked team play exist have to be for ranking teams without afectation to individual score and for estable teams, pug teams have no sense in any sort of team ranked

Personal rank in a team based environment where your success depends on at least 60% of your team being on close to the same page?!? If you think this results in accurately calculating personal rank….. Let the absurdity of this argument sink in for at least a second. Now that it’s sunk in, realize that this is what ANet has determined as “good”. Your personal rank is tied directly to your team…..

My gaming skills are being shadowed, no drowned, by the average of at least 2-3 boneheads I end up stuck with. The only accurate way to calculate personal rank/ability is in a 1v1 environment.

Ranked is also the only source for pip’d rewards and ascension achievements which is a primary reason it becomes jam packed with people that have no clue what to do and no desire to improve as long as the rewards roll in. Shockingly, there is a large majority of players that would like to earn these AND have a real shot at winning.

Mix of marauders and bersekers with durability runes.

Oh, I’m no stranger to gaming forums, but thank you!

It just really gets me that it was this or full team ques when it seems the sensible middle ground is some version of what I suggested. It gives bigger teams good matching and helps protect the solo que’rs if not even give them a better shot at getting a team of 3 or 4 that if they know their biz they can really contribute. Instead we have up to 5 headless chickens running around bickering to their demise.

I feel like Defense will be easier to let go of then Discipline come Spellbreaker, replacing Defense with Strength. Mostly for fast hamds, Condi clear on swap, and sprint. I don’t know yet if the sustain is a wash between Spellbreaker and Defense, but Spellbreaker brings quite a bit, more is my initial impression depending on the build. That at least leaves you condi clear on a short cd and Might Makes Right unless you want the hammer trait. You’ll never make full use of the clears through Defense with Spellbreaker anyhow.

The connundrum is that condi meta corners you into maximizing clears and resist. I’d feel better about dropping Discipline, camping a weapon a little longer and using some offensive utilities if I knew I wouldn’t melt.

For core you have to have fast hands to utilize cleansing ire else you’re sitting on 3 bars but the burst is on CD.

Even if they baseline fast hands in this meta you still have to tie it to condi clears from at least one trait….

Silv.9207:

back in time too much people on the forum came to cry about got slaughtered by a team while they was more or less all pug or a half team+pug.

ANet made us Vote to chose if we wanted a Team queue or a Solo/Duo Queue. Almost all the forum users chose for the Solo/Duo Queue and since there we can’t join a ranked with more than one friend.

There was other great options to balance better the game, but that was what players chose and now we have a team based game where we can’t play as a team.
There was too much players too lazy to make a team to join a ranked fight and not enough organized players to play the game as a full team.

If you don’t care about the leaderboard or the rewards, play Unranked and play with all your friends.

I see, thank you for the answers. The main benefits to me are the rewards and the game play itself, but who wants to lose just cause…..

Really odd to me that this system won a vote.

Forgive my ignorance/laziness for not seeing if this topic has already come and gone, but I don’t understand why we can’t reasonably que 3+. It seems simple to me to be able to match games based on party size. If you want to que 3+ you wait for 3+, or even a +1/-1 system where if you want to que 3 you have to wait for a party with 2 or 4, likewise with 4 you wait for 3 or 5.

I can see where some would argue it would slow ques, but I don’t see where it would be that bad. The majority of people that are legitimately trying to climb are going to favor a group to do so and if I can get a group of 3 I’d rather wait a little longer for a better shot at winning against arguably a more organized and thus better team then suffering the equivalent time through the hell that is a solo or even 2 que match. I’d even rather pit my 3 against 4 or 4 against 5 with the knowledge that you at least had a real fighting chance against minimizing the kitten factor and legitimately out playing another team…..Thoughts?

Personally, I love it paired with Bull’s Charge cause you have a real chance to get on top of them and maximize it. You then have a full charged burst for Eviscerate. Condi clears are on weapon swap and adrenaline bursts, and I run Heal Signet and Berserker Stance. It’s counter to the popular shield and invuln route, but with the right Sigils and food it plays really well with Might Makes Right and Axe Mastery.

SWI is mostly correct.

We have no real solid place in the zerg, though you may find purpose pugging as full zerker dps GS/Hammer or Shouts build.

With Path of Fire on the horizon nothing very innovative in builds seems to be going on. However, recent changes have given a great buff to core warrior builds. Discipline, Defense, Strength is full serviceable. I’m having good success with axe/axe and GS running some Physical Skills. It’s great mobility, CC, and burst that most people still aren’t expecting from a warrior. They’re often down or on their heels fast and you have decent chase potential.

WvW just feels meh to me right now having played Spellbreaker. The elite specialization doesn’t really revolutionize the class the way other classes elite does, but it does give us some very nice tools and looks to put us solidly back in the zerg. It also adds more active strategic game play, over the standard issue Warrior play that’s become fairly standard, that rewards you with deadly 1v1 or 1v2+ potential.

My advice is tinker until PoF then invest in a build.

Discipline only buffs the skill. Does state number 3 is Vengeance. Notice when you use it the icon will show up with your buffs.

“Rally and fight normally for a brief time. You have a chance to fully rally if you kill an enemy. When the vengeance ends, you are defeated.”

I think maybe you mean Vengeance? If you hit 3 when it’s off cool down you’re going to Vengeance.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vengeance_

Apolo.5942:

Warrior having a lot of access to invulnerability, is a MYTH.

Warrior has access to 3s on shield, instances of 2s through Endure pain and 2s through Defense trait line.

It is very comparable to the BS amount of doge from Thief, Blocks from Engineer (hammer, shield and wrench kit), mesmer shield and so on.

We lack gap mobility and damage compared to more offensive classes, the trade of is healing, as simple as that.

Assuming you’re seeking to be taken seriously by ANet you should at least attempt to be correct.

Mikeskies.1536:

Tinnel.4369:

I think when making statements about the merits of a skill it’s important to relate it to the game mode to keep the feedback relevant.

Imminent Threat in WvW is actually quite useful. It’s a large adrenaline generator, retaliation, and when used properly keeps people where you want them during the taunt, i.e. WoD. It’s in line with the theme that we’re there to make your life hell through cc while ripping your boons so us or our buddies can wreck you. The problem is its cooldown.

Break Enchantments, again, in WvW is pretty much a must. Adrenaline generation, boon rip, AoE boon rip, and it can crit over 3k. Unblockable on a 15 sec. CD. Keep in mind that if you drop Defense and SoR adrenaline generation becomes an issue. Your only way to replace this is boon rip and when done right it’s plenty of adrenaline.

Imminent Threat is a good skill, but it needs to be on a 20-25 second CD and also grant 1 stability for 4 seconds per enemy taunted.

Break Enchantments is okay, but could use a damage buff. Loss Aversion for that matter could use a damage buff as well.

Don’t really disagree on Imminent Threat. I look at Break Enchantments and Loss Aversion solely as boon rip and adrenaline which directly translate to more damage, that they can do unblockable damage is a little bonus. Like I said Break Enchantments can really do a chunk of damage.

I think when making statements about the merits of a skill it’s important to relate it to the game mode to keep the feedback relevant.

Imminent Threat in WvW is actually quite useful. It’s a large adrenaline generator, retaliation, and when used properly keeps people where you want them during the taunt, i.e. WoD. It’s in line with the theme that we’re there to make your life hell through cc while ripping your boons so us or our buddies can wreck you. The problem is its cooldown.

Break Enchantments, again, in WvW is pretty much a must. Adrenaline generation, boon rip, AoE boon rip, and it can crit over 3k. Unblockable on a 15 sec. CD. Keep in mind that if you drop Defense and SoR adrenaline generation becomes an issue. Your only way to replace this is boon rip and when done right it’s plenty of adrenaline.

Mthe mystery.4615:

Apparently spellbreaker is getting a nerf. Just what i heard

I’d be a little shocked to see anything more than minor tuning (damage, durations, cooldowns) come out of the demo weekend. It’s hardly a realistic data set. We didn’t see the specs in PvE, we didn’t see them in capable hands, and we didn’t see them against capable hands. Most players spent the weekend trying to figure out how to play them or play against them. It’d be the equivalent of redesigning a car based on input from someone who’d never driven a car in a testing ground the car wasn’t even intended for.

It’s pretty realistic that, at least for awhile, we’re going to see a fair mix of each kind of specialization (core, HoT, and PoF) until people start to flesh out what works where, how, against what. ANet has the challenge of balancing all of this as a whole…..

Fideles Erbstück.7382:

After i tested and tried everything i came to the conculsion spellbreaker is jsut too weak.
its still lacks the typcial warirror problems. the new f2 is nice but not nearly strong enough to make up for it. it should give quickness. and heal on its own. it has too much counterplay too make i tviable. ( itc can get interrupted easily and dodged )
so pls make the cast faster.

so far spellbreaker is literly unplayable in pvp . you get farmed by literly EVERY OTHER elite spec in PoF

pls anet consider this

Then you didn’t really test and try everything.

Spellbreaker looks great in WvW (roam and zerg) and PvP. These voices pushing it down with, “I’m high level competition or I’ve played it since XXX and thus know exactly what I’m talking about.” Or, “I have an even more elevated view of balancing and the associated challenges then ANet and can thus demand that my opinions (not facts) concerning their motives and shortcomings are valid by using big words.” Really mean they watch videos of high level competition and skirt the far periphery of that community and have had a warrior sitting on their account since XXX and that they’re now aboard the troll wagon of perceived disappointment and lashing out at ANet seems fitting.

They’re the same voices that once the rest of the community figures out the builds that work will go happily play them and sing the specializations praises and comment on the high level competitors videos about how they’ve always wanted to love that class and now they see how they can and can they please have the build.

I strongly agree with most of this. I would argue that with the recent changes to Strength and Physical Skills that they have become legitimate choices if you choose strategic play over face-roll invulnerable. I’ve been roaming WvW with Bull’s Charge and Stomp and feel they are offering a lot in the way of damage, cc, and even some sustain with Stability on Stomp. They undoubtedly take the place of Endure Pain, Dolyak Signet, or Balanced Stance, but their benefits are real.

After playing PvP a lot yesterday with essentially the same build as I roam with I did come across one frustration. With a little more tactical approach I find myself much less willing to get in a Dragonhunter or Reaper’s face. It’s better to circle them while traps, wells, and shroud cool off, but we’re left with no short range weapon option to harrass with in this case. I found myself frustratingly circling a point until I felt confident leaping in. Can’t have our cake and eat it too, but still something I noticed. I think that the sustain Spellbreaker brings to the table will help change this, as well as the knowledge that if we get on you we’re gonna rip your boons and then punish you severely.

People will adjust to what warrior’s are coming up with that’s not the standard issue of the last couple years. For now though I’m enjoying delivering unexpected cc and bursts and watching thieves and rangers think twice about pressuring me to invuln and then have their way with me. Looking forward to putting Spellbreaker back in the mix!!

CrashTheGrey.1492:

You guys try roaming on it? I was using some marauder and zerk stuff and thought it seemed pretty stronk. d/d was meh, mace shield and GS was good. Want to use hammer but the mobility then becomes atrocious.

d/a GS with Bull’s Charge and Stomp is pretty nasty. Bull’s Charge to axe 5, to Stomp, to dagger 2, 3, F1, F2, F1. You don’t really ever need to get to GS and if they have anything left to run you have GS 5 and 3 left and Bull’s Charge on its way shortly.

d/d works much the same with dagger 3, 4, F1, F2, F1.

It really plays a lot like a kittened off tanky glkittenter interrupt mesmer. Stun, burst, stun, burst, BIG BURST, collect glory.

It’s hard to give up sources of adrenaline from Defense and SoR, but lean on the boon rips to keep you full. Break Enchantments actually crits kinda high and helps keep endurance rolling in especially in +1, 2, or even 3 situations. Don’t underestimate WoD in outnumbered. Depending on your grandmaster the sustain is really kind of ridiculous. I lost a lot of outnumbered fights but not without punishing them severely. Now back to core and the sustain difference really is night and day to me.

Rifle and Axe definitely take a big hit with Spellbreaker. Hammer and mace lose some stun time, but still play well with Spellbreaker because they result in the boon rip > AoE boon rip > adrenaline generation..

Mikali.9651:

alright, let’s do it:

Dagger weapon skills:

1. Autoattack -+30% Base Damage¸ Critical Damage Increase from 15 to 10%

2. Aura Slicer – faster animation, range: 450, slow: 2 sec

3. Disrupting Stab – Now have 2 stages. The first one is the original skill, the second one is Wastrel’s Ruin

4. Twin Moon Strike – Damage (2x): x (half of the Axe’s Dual Strike) – remove condition with each strike – heal for x for every condition removed, cooldown 10 sec

5. Bladestorm – damage increase 10%, range 450, grants swiftness to up to 5 nearby allies

6. Breaching Strike: faster animation

Traits:

No Escape: Immobilize opponent (0.5 sec) after daze and stun you apply are gone

Sun and Moon Style – Gain bonuses for each dagger (max 2) you have (now counts both weapon sets), which means you can have both bonuses even if you wield one dagger per weapon set.

I quite like most of this. I don’t know that the Sun and Moon suggestion will ever float. As it is I feel like the interrupt is dicey to land, especially with the range on 3 and demands shield or mace on at least one weapon set. While you still get a stun out of mace it’s duration is kitten by one adrenaline bar.

While I’m not in the camp that the spec is a complete disaster I do have trouble taking utilities in confidence. It’s not that they’re bad it’s that they’re still just not better than stances and with the recent changes physical skills either. Roaming I’m going with heal signet, zerk stance, stomp, bulls charge, SoR.

Dagger MH and axe OH has felt very nice, but I do feel that the dagger is just there to fill time until I can burst with it. With Bulls Charge and Stomp I have little to no trouble executing axe 4 and 5 for very nice results. Otherwise I’m relying on Full Counter (which is amazing) and burst or weapon swaps to GS.

I’ve tried hard to stir in Arms or Tactics and can find reasons to, but only for a trait or two. With Tactics, Hammer, and Slow Counter you become a cc monster (any source of cripple really), Shake it Off and PS can round out Tactics. However, Discipline is still just a must, a must. If you want to make full use of your burst and Full Counter you need a steady stream of adrenaline and this corners you into either Defense or SoR. Running Defense with WoD in the zerg works, but now Strength is out which means buffing your physical skills, GS, and Hammer or sustain or more burst are now out. Running SoR with Strength to roam works fine too.

Arms I can’t really find a place for with Spellbreaker unless there’s a hybrid build with Discipline and the right weapons that can also play off of Revenge Counter. However, then you’re tied to sword (blech) and your only condi applications are bleed and maybe torment, you have no covering conditions.

WoD is a really nice skill, but it’s animation screams run from me fast from 300 miles away. It has the possible advantage of making the blob scatter and fall apart, but commanders will get past that reaction. To be fully effective it relies on being able to get the cast off inside the blob which points you back to stances and signets for sustain. It then depends on leaps from the rest of your team to keep people cc’d in it. Outside of a really nice choke, you’re not going to get the full 10 seconds out of it. Without it you’re free to run SoR and Strength for more damage. If it were even 300 range targettable or pulsed a stun halfway through? I dunno here. What if another utility had a bonus effect if executed inside WoD? Stun, cripple, etc.?

Weapon wise in the zerg it’s Hammer and GS it seems for now. Dagger/Mace seems to work ok. Mace 5 into the zerg instantly maxes Attacker’s Insight and is a 1200 range AoE boon rip. Without GS I feel like Bull’s Charge gets really attractive for the gap closer/escape which makes you want to take Strength to boost it which leads to wanting to drop WoD for SoR for adrenaline. Bull’s Charge and Stomp are also nice cc that generate AoE boon rips. Dagger is meh cleave, but can still produce AoE boon rips inside the blob. Mace 4 is nice vulnerability application and hits pretty hard, but only 3 targets.

Remember that with only one bar weapons that scale off adrenaline have taken a hit, axe, rifle, mace….

I’m running d/a gs with disc, str/def, sb with healing signet, zerk stance, stomp, bulls charge, and SoR roaming WvW and doing just fine success and fun wise. Certainly a lot of people are caught off guard cause they have zero clue how to deal with the class yet, but the damage and sustain are very real.

If you’re convinced otherwise based on I don’t know what then that’s great, but it works and works well and we’re definitely back in the zerg.

lighter.2708:

GhandiBot.6257:

Only thing I can think of is the aoe boon strips and reveals for pvp. Other than that, a vanilla power warrior who goes into Strength, Defence and Discipline with Might Makes Right is better. Puts out a lot more pressure than Spellbreaker.

why take spell breaker when you have scourge with sand sade aoes and elite converts every boon to condition

For high resistance uptime, condi clearing, the ability to toss condis right back in their face, superior cc, boon ripping, and general ass whoopery.

I seriously think the majority of you are playing a totally different game/have invested absolutely zero time in understanding what you’ve been given.

Ahlen.7591:

Stacwad.8250:

It’s so funny going into each new elite spec forum and reading everyone complain. Neckbeards will never be satisfied. This new power warrior is fun

What’s new about it exactly? We don’t get something neat like Firebrand tomes, or the summons of Rev, or the new playstyle of scourge/soulbeast/holosmith.

We just get a plain weapon with plain skills, crappy utilities, and an insanely situational elite.

Spellbreaker straight up feels like an afterthought compared to everyone else. Not even mentioning the fact that it’s weak, the lack of thought in adding new and interesting mechanics/playstyles is the worst part.

You’re right – an unblockable burst on 7 second cooldown that grants stability, protection, resistance, absorbs an attack, gives an evade, does ridiculous aoe damage, copies 5 conditions to 5 targets, aoe interrupt/daze, and aoe boon rip puts me to sleep too. I feel so mistreated and underpowered.

We’re still chained to discipline and maybe even defense, but even still the spec changes the game play.

It effectively nukes main hand axe or mace and rifle due to the adrenaline tier scaling, but mainhand dagger, gs, hammer are legit.

I agree dagger need some help in…I dunno damage, range, cd’s, I’m not real sure what just yet. However if you stack adrenaline generation (like most builds do anyhow), the burst is quite legit. If you do it right you can F1, F2, which immediately resets F1 CD and you’re left with two full bars of adrenaline.

I think the Full Counter mechanic adds a great flavor to the game play, it gets klunky if it misses, you have to favor walking into damage to make it go off, but the burst is legit and the traited bonuses are as well.

In the zerg w/hammer traited appropriately you are a cc spamming boon ripping nightmare. Pair it up with GS or d/m and weeeeeee.

When you think the weapons define the spec and can’t see your way through even trying to optimize them.

It’s a immob spamming, boon ripping nightmare, we’re back in the zerg baby.

Apolo.5942:

Tinnel.4369:

I’m by no means saying that they’re doing an ideal job of it, but the idea is that you can find synergy across multiple trait lines to put together a functional build. By allowing the synergy across multiple trait lines + multiple weapon combinations + multiple utility combinations + gear stats + runes + sigils + food/wrench you get what I believe they’ve sold from the beginning – diversity, flavor, endless options (even if they aren’t all “meta”). Build wars if you will.

You should have to choose your traits wisely, not commit to an entire trait line based solely on the preferred damage mode.

This is a BS argument, if you can find synergies, then you can find the optimal choice for what you want to run, it makes no difference what so ever if they are in a single line that is easier to balance and makes much more sense over all or 3 spread around that force you to run them because they are the optimal choice but make no sense what so ever.

Not really following this at all. They don’t magically become easier to balance by virtue of being in the same line. What does “force you to run them because they are optimal choice but make no sense whatsoever.” mean? How is it the optimal choice and make no sense whatsoever concomitantly?

I agree that there’s the occasional, “I want these two traits, but to get them I have to take an unfavorable trait to my build in the first tier.” I don’t see how you completely eliminate that possibility for everyone given the endless build possibilities based on all the combinable factors previously mentioned (“optimal” is an irrelevant argument here) simply by stacking them in one tree. Stacking them only favors shrinking of build diversity towards an easy tell me what’s optimal to win mentality.

You don’t just simply have power. You have power weapons, power utilities, power builds from raw power, crit builds, crit power builds, etc. How do you propose you cram all of that into one tree without severely limiting build diversity?

What if I want a hybrid damage build with defensive abilities focused around two specific weapons? Can you detail how you get that out of focused trait lines?

Apolo.5942:

The real problem, and i have been saying this for a while now, is that trait lines are generally speaking, a complete mess with no archetype/gameplay in mind what so ever.

Take warrior. You have traits that directly impact your power based damage on at least 3 lines out of the top of my head. Why?.

STRENGTH should afect power based builds EXCLUSIVELY.
ARMS should affect conditions builds EXCLUSIVELY.
DISCIPLINE should affect NEITHER.

As it stands:
STRENGHT has a grand master that directly affects conditions builds through appliying confusion.
ARMS has several traits that affect power through crit, fury and burst crit and attack speed.
DISCIPLINE has a grand master that increases crit damage by 20%

This dessign is attrocious. You have to mix and match trait lines that might have nothing to do with your build in order to get access to traits that should be focused on a single line.

Lines should define AND encapsulate bonuses as to not overlap with each other and offer on the same column 3 variants of the same “bonus/utility”.

For instance you would have to choose betwin a grand master in STRENGTH.
- 30% damage for your self for 10seconds every 20seconds. (burst/pvp)
- 10% damage for your self for 10seconds every 10seconds. (dps/general)
- 5% damage for your group sustainable. (raid/wvw)

I disagree, this favors the meta mentality where this is the clear single functional build for mode A, B, or C. Further, it perpetuates the “you nuked this line that was essential to this clear single build” and then we get threads like this that can’t see past the meta ultra optimization mentality that really constitutes but a fraction of the total community.

I’m by no means saying that they’re doing an ideal job of it, but the idea is that you can find synergy across multiple trait lines to put together a functional build. By allowing the synergy across multiple trait lines + multiple weapon combinations + multiple utility combinations + gear stats + runes + sigils + food/wrench you get what I believe they’ve sold from the beginning – diversity, flavor, endless options (even if they aren’t all “meta”). Build wars if you will.

You should have to choose your traits wisely, not commit to an entire trait line based solely on the preferred damage mode.

All good suggestions above. However, the thief doesn’t have to be glassy, you could beef it up and still give her a fast paced pew pew capable of open world, add SB and it’s just more pew pew.

Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485:

grifflyman.8102:

Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485:

I dont think a profession should have to rely on a single weapon to be effective. All of a profs weapons should be effective in some manner in most modes depending on the role they should have a few (especially warrior with its weapon laundry list)

I think Spellbreaker’s dagger skills are 3 target max.

i hope not

Disappointingly according to the wiki, at least for now, the offensive burst is single target, auto attack is 2 targets, and 2 3 and 4 are single target

Choppy.4183:

Tinnel.4369:

I’m finding it quite nice. Axe/Shield GS, Strength sigils, Plate of Roasted Cactus. The trick for me is remembering to spend the dodges and not just stand in and bang. Don’t forget Stick and Move bonus, I try and open with a dodge on first contact so I’m for sure getting that bonus on first burst.

Be sure to hit (or get hit) at least once before the dodge so that you proc Reckless Dodge. If you start with the dodge, you’ll lose out on a great unblockable aoe source of damage.

Exactly, I’ve been trying to do it after my gap closer depending on the cc state it does or doesn’t leave the target in.

I’m not sure we’ll see mounts in WvW?

Horn still has it’s roll in condi clearing and utility, but I wouldn’t complain about 10 targets at all.

Shouts warrior is still pretty functional, but is indeed outclassed by Guards and Revs that bring resistance or clears without occupying a whole weapon slot + all their other utilities. It’s the all the other utilities where I think Warrior gets lackluster so I’m not sure 10 targets really overcomes that.

I’m finding it quite nice. Axe/Shield GS, Strength sigils, Plate of Roasted Cactus. The trick for me is remembering to spend the dodges and not just stand in and bang. Don’t forget Stick and Move bonus, I try and open with a dodge on first contact so I’m for sure getting that bonus on first burst.

The one condi clear every 5 seconds is hardly relevant against a true condi build in this meta, you’re going to be relying on your resistance and Cleansing Ire anyhow. Stab gets stripped too…….

I agree the loss of Fast Hands and Versatile Power has a klunkiness to it, but not in relation to condition clears.

WUROCKET.5182:

babazhook.6805:

WUROCKET.5182:

babazhook.6805:

WUROCKET.5182:

This is much better for small scale fights: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAR5ejEdQXIWFCmdAnIGMCKcEy7TwCgGIn1t45vCA-TFCBABnpEEgHAwWKHwSJXFXAg80BUp6PBt/QAAEgbezAgbezb2m3sUAjt1C-w

Gear: Mostly berserk/assassins with a side of toughness (knights/cavaliers)

i am only going to speak to the Discipline versus Arms line.

To the advantanges of Discipline over arms in these particular builds.

The only thing I see would be the Condition cleanse on fast hands and access to the second weapon set faster.

Warriors sprint is superceded by Signet of Rage activated.
Adrenaline gain in Arms with high crit build is higher.
Might only stacks to 25 max. Using might on crit food and a sigil you can usually get there with GS without the might on weapon swap.
Burst mastery is generating a percentage of damage more on burst only. My build with a higher crit rate and ferocity will generate more damage on every hit including the burst.

I think people underestimate the amount of Adrenaline Furious can fuel . with a crit rate as high as my build has If I am cleaving 2 enemies just the AA cycle will generate 6 adrenaline for the AA chain. Using 100 blades can generate 16 adrenaline. Every single attack that hits has a 90 percent chance of giving adrenaline. I am not forcing myself to swap weapons just to get might and adrenaline. I just have to attack and there a whole lot of times I do not want to swap my weapons.

Can you detail what advantages your build has by taking Discipline over Arms?

-Fast Hands (this is a life saver trait, lets you switch to your other weapon to block, interrupt, or burst when you NEED to)
-With rune of lyssa, save signet of rage to use as condi clear (also lets you benefit from signet of rages passive, which generates a lot of adrenaline)
-Burst mastery, saves 10 adrenaline everytime you burst
-Generates 5 adrenaline on weapon swap
-Lower burst CD
-The extra condi clear lets you take Last Stand over Cleansing Ire, which gives stability and a lot of vigor. (vigor when combined with might makes right = infinite dodges)
-Mending gives 5 strength on a 15 sec CD (remember 5 strength = 700 hp and 10 endurance)
-2 might on weapon swap

Essentially what you get is: More bursts, more might, and much more mobility/survivability

I do not think you get more might given might is capped and I am already able to have 20+ might easily in my build.

I tested the adrenaline gain of both back and forth and I get more out of arms. Your return of might on your burst as example is 10 and you get 5 off a swap. If you do the math covering those seconds (and especially if you cleave) you are getting adrenaline every hit in arms and in the period of time for swap/burst you can easily get 15 hits thus 15 adrenaline.

I am not sure where you get added mobiity. It just warriors sprint and swiftness overwrites that. There certainly a downtime on swiftness where sprint kickin might help but it manageble with a lower signet of rage cooldown from Arms.

Fury uptime in arms is also higher.

To more bursts, you get all of one second shaved off in the time between bursts and I do not think it all that significant given Arms pumps out more damage on each and every swing including those bursts and the ones between bursts.

I understand fast hands for the condition clear and faster access to other weapon and as mentioned that the only real edge Discipline has so it gets down to "More damage (in arms) versus more utility/flexibility in discipline.

if you are hitting mindless dummies, then yes your build is better. However, your build has NO stability, and it’s only good condi clear is to land a burst. Anyone good is going to condi bomb you and they just need to dodge 1 skill and you’re dead.

Your build is for zerg or pve, which is fine. But you will get absolutely dumpstered in a 1v1 against someone competent, because your build simply does not have the tools to survive.

Wasn’t my experience playing around with it in WvW this morning. It’s only missing the condi clear on swap. You have tons of adrenaline for Cleansing Ire (literally a 3 condi clear on demand with SoF alone), Healing Signet resistance every 16 seconds and Berserk Stance. All of which are plenty to stand through a condi bomb and deliver big burst.

babazhook.6805:

What I am trying to do is prepare a build for the upcoming spellbreaker. I think I have established I can do quite well without Berserker line. I have also determined to my own satisfaction that both Arms and Stregth are now very Competitve lines and the Discipline can also be dropped.

Defense is the only one I am not sure on. I just can not see working without it.

So it going to be Sb/Defense and X with X being one of STR , arms or Discipline.

I am not seeing what Tactics can do in the build.

Natural healing might become my go to heal but that long time to cast is worrisome.
I know what an enemyg thief can do with that.

Coming to much the same conclusion. I ran your build for awhile this morning and it is indeed functional, but I find a dead spot without Fast Hands I have a hard time with so I’m staying with Disc over Arms for now.

Feeling like SoF is a tossup, the precision and on demand fury is nice, but with SoR I’ve already got more rage than my cooldown can handle. It’s kind of situational use between SoF and Zerk Stance or Endure Pain. 2x Bolas is situationally kind of nice too for those that insta run after your first burst.

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Some of us would like to hold people accountable so things improve.

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Keep us posted on how that works out, everyone else will still be in game.

CrashTheGrey.1492:

Do I need to dig up the team rosters for any high level tournament in the last long while?
I actually would like to see this, both as evidence of your next statement and to perturb your condescending tone and see if you’ll follow through.

You will notice that Warrior is completely missing.

People that understand #intricacies much more than most in this thread refuse to play this class, and one of the elite specs that was actually giving power some viability in lower level play just got nothing but a 66% nerf to its kittening class specific mechanic in multiple facets.
No argument that reasons to play warrior have lacked, doesn’t mean some people can and do play it, functionally. These reasons are, however, extend well beyond primal burst. The change didn’t occur in a vacuum around primal burst, it’s relative to everything else.

Now if we try really hard we can make the distinction that Strength got some positive changes, while Berserker ONLY got negative changes from where it was prior (in a not competitive state).
Agreed, but this doesn’t constitute gutted, destroyed, forcing me to buy the expansion, etc. There remain many options to play power and even Berserker functionally. We can disagree all day, proof is in the pudding as they say and anecdotal evidence has no legs from either side. I just see the results I see and disagree.

Bear with me dude, but would that not make BERSERKER as an elite spec even LESS viable? Can you arrive at this, that only nerfs were levied at an already underperforming spec in PvP?
Again, it didn’t happen in a vacuum. It’s relative, the tests of which certainly haven’t been fleshed out over night or even in a few days, we’re not even in a PvP season currently.

There is no argument to be had as this nerf was executed without any concessions to the elite spec that got hit, an elite spec that was already not good against anyone who can read a tell and the entire competitive scene.
Broadly invalidating arguments does not, by virtue, invalidate arguments. Mere speculation that there was zero concession. I refer again to the vacuum comment. If you were already disgusted with the class and are now further disgusted what is it you’re after?

Warrior’s not perfect, no class is, either play the class or don’t, either play the game or don’t. Rage, threats, accusations, and speculation aren’t likely to get any results.

Mikeskies.1536:

Tinnel.4369:

Mikeskies.1536:

Tinnel.4369:

Across multiple threads I’m still just not seeing the core of this argument as justified. There’s reason being sprinkled in, but it’s being drown out by angry tantrums.
(At least WvW and PvP wise, I definitely can’t speak to PvE).

You want condi clear and heals – don’t primal burst.
You want burst – primal burst.
You still have sources of resistance and invuln.
SoF and SoR are totally legit sources of adrenaline, damage, and boons.
You’ve been given the ability to might stack for damage and passively heal and gain endurance.
You’ve been given a 900 range, 6k+ source of damage, with an evade frame, and 3 second knockdown.
You’ve been given a 4-5k damage at 900 range with cripple. (both ammo charges of axe 3).
Berserker isn’t destroyed, you just have to adjust around the changes and not rely on headbutt, meme burst, good day sir.

I haven’t tried it, but there appears to be a strong condi build to be had with the changes to Arms. Seeing as how Berserker came with torch, a clear condi weapon, and condi-centric talents, but no strong support from other talent trees this is a nice addition for condizerkers.

Everything certainly isn’t perfect, but the world is far from coming to an end.
Disc, Def, Bers still works fine if you adjust your utils and strategy. Str is now a legit option over at least two of those.

Core warrior wasn’t always just fine, the changes to Str for core warrior are significant. You now have the real option to choose Berserker to supplement a condi or power build through talents and utilities that fits the play style you prefer. You wanna primal burst, it’s gonna cost you some sustain.

Warrior’s place in the meta was never about damage or sustain it was about it’s overall utility to the group. That still hasn’t been fixed, but Spellbreaker is on the way..

Condi warrior is excellent in PvE as both PS and DPS. Condi warrior is also okay in sPvP. Spellbreaker is bringing an excellent PvP build.

The core issue I have Is how the new Berserker’s Power was implemented. This is a PvE trait for Power Warrior. The Devs stated the reason for this change was to make it feel good to use a level 1 burst consecutively instead of waiting for level 3 adrenaline. However, 10 seconds is too short a duration to reach 3 stacks of Bersekers Power for more than 1 second, and it’s impossible to even consistently maintain 2 stacks. Either the duration of Berserkers Power needs to be increased or duration needs to be refreshed. Without this change, this is a nerf to Power Berserker; Spellbreaker will have a similar struggle with the trait as is. The stated design intent does not mesh with how it currently functions. That is the problem.

Have you not tried SoR? Days of adrenaline for me….

The issue isn’t adrenaline. You can’t primal burst or level 1 burst fast enough due to cool downs to maintain 3 stacks.

This is true, I’m essentially waiting on the CD just to use 2+ preventing the use of just 1 or 2.

CrashTheGrey.1492:

Tinnel.4369:

You want condi clear and heals – don’t primal burst.
At this juncture it is clear that strength is a much better option, both for damage and sustain
You want burst – primal burst.
Larger Tells, Less Damage, and as you mentioned, not worth for sustaining. Strength Hits much Harder with BP, or it hits roughly the same and makes use of MightMakesRight

You still have sources of resistance and invuln.
This is a strawman, it has nothing to do with Berserkers Primal Burst being nerfed,
any mixture of build can use these sources of EP and B. Sance

SoF and SoR are totally legit sources of adrenaline, damage, and boons.
Another blantant strawman, These are useable by core and zerk and don’t tie into the addressed problems with Primal Burst

You’ve been given the ability to might stack for damage and passively heal and gain endurance.
If you run strength, which will always logically replace Berserker. Or you are running a gimmick build and obviously won’t have the current necessities to survive competent players in this meta and power creep

You’ve been given a 900 range, 6k+ source of damage, with an evade frame, and 3 second knockdown.
Another Strawman, and the traited version of Bulls Charge, certainly isn’t in the Berserkers Tree is it? Strength, again, dwarfing the choices for power builds

You’ve been given a 4-5k damage at 900 range with cripple. (both ammo charges of axe 3).
As if you couldn’t refer any more invalid points, you bring up a weapon that is usable by both specs, that has 0 weight on the addressed issue of primal burst

Berserker isn’t destroyed, you just have to adjust around the changes and not rely on headbutt, meme burst, good day sir.
“Adjusting” is playing the build that is not absolutely gutted by poor balancing decision. The arrival is that a player should always take strength if not spell breaker, and the reliance on def and discipline is too pronounced and has been an issue for a long while. Noone will use berserker as power with as much success as running strength for a multitude of reasons. As is agreed upon by so many others, core is pretty good right now, and there is no point in taking berserker for power builds

Everything certainly isn’t perfect, but the world is far from coming to an end.
Disc, Def, Bers still works fine if you adjust your utils and strategy. Str is now a legit option over at least two of those.
Strength is the better option to take over berserker, and not the other two trees because that would create a gimmicky build, one that will be laughed at and not used by anyone with half a brain.

Core warrior wasn’t always just fine, the changes to Str for core warrior are significant. You now have the real option to choose Berserker to supplement a condi or power build through talents and utilities that fits the play style you prefer. You wanna primal burst, it’s gonna cost you some sustain.
At the same time it costs you massive amounts of sustain, it will do far less damage,
be more easy to dodge on your typical melee weapon lay out, and make no sense to take because stacking 21% damage with BP makes infinitely more sense from the strength line while also supplementing sustain and condi removal.

Without contest, this is the most unintelligible defensive position I have seen written for this nerf.

It’s not at all clear that Strength is a much better option for damage and sustain. Berserk still maintains access to Savage Instinct, Blood Reaction, Dead or Alive, Bloody Roar, and Eternal Champion. Tier 1, 2, and 3 bursts ~hit the same and ~clear the same.

The rest of what you’ve surmised here is that warrior is indeed not destroyed, you just have to unerstand that if you take Berserker you have to choose between burst and sustain situationally.

Warlord.9074:

Tinnel thats because you don’t know the intricacies of warrior class.

When you are a warrior You are stuck to discipline trait line. Becasue the short CDs of your skills require fast hands for rotations in PVE, and for PVP u are needing warrior sprint and fast hands as well as other traits in there to be competatiove.

If it is PVE that is not a problem because u will take Berserk and another offensive traitline.

But if its PVP or WVW than you are mandatory stuck to taking defense and discipline.

So you take berserker spec that means whenever you are not in zerk you are basically just a weaker or kitten warrior becasue you don’t have str traitline or arms or somthing offensive.

You cannot just tell a warrior then don’t activate berserk becasue without it they are nothing. The condi spam in those game modes is too high and without proper cleanising which CI has never been enough alone you cannot play.

I understand intricacies just fine. If anything I think the lack of knowledge of intricacies is what’s fueling these cries of devastation. Warriors aren’t nothing without berserk. While lackluster Def, Disc, Tactics was serviceable before. Condi is broken for everyone and warrior still has some of the best options for dealing with it, even with this change.