Guild Wars 2

We recently had the addition of hold-and-release ground targeting, something that has drastically improved the quality of life for many classes.

I would like to suggest that in a similar fashion, we could have a new option for how auto attacks are handled.

Currently, there are two options:
1) Once initiated, the character continues to auto-attack until they are unable or the action is cancelled.
2) Each press of the button prompts an attack.

I propose a third.

3) While the auto-attack button is held, the character will continue to attempt auto-attacks in the manner of option #1, but will stop attempting once that button is released.

I believe that this option could be of great benefit to many classes, especially those with stealth mechanics. It would also be a boon for players who participate in coordinated group WvW combat, where periods of auto-attacks without a constant or consistent target are sometimes called for. I am sure grenade and bomb engineers would also greatly appreciate the option.

It would be a useful addition for many kits, transforms and siege weaponry, especially when using WvW siege golems who require long periods of auto-attacks but who can become stuck in place if auto-attacking is enabled, held still by constant immobilizing strikes they themselves perform. The alternative is the press the key for every attack, but not only can this cause attacks to fail inside of golems or when using rams, but this becomes very tedious (and painful on the fingers) when destroying a heavily reinforced gate.

I believe this is a simple, practical addition to the game with many benefits to almost every aspect of play.

Sagabatou.1076:

JetLu.1874:

I’d like to know, how a dead, not downed, but totally dead player’s health kept rejuvenating until he rose from the dead. You could actually see the red health bar increasing. Void was the guild. How do I know, because this player actually arose and started fighting. I am thinking that YB and EB are using quite a few exploits in the matchup. Cheating is for losers.

Either invis thieves or mesmers or something else.

Or a revive orb. Those res you very slowly over a long period, as described.

Fungalfoot.7213:

If you want to zerg that’s perfectly fine but you should not reap the same rewards as somebody who puts in way more effort than you.

I disagree with this statement. I am part of a coordinated, dedicated WvW guild who primarily work in groups of 15-20, often with a significant group of pugs and members of other friendly guilds. We are often a zerg, and we put in a hell of a lot of work to do it right. We maintain an Spvp arena for maneuvers training, take part in regular drills for both WvW and GvG matches and coordinate scouts, small squad actions and the main train to maximize our effect. In addition we put time, gold and effort into producing the siege and materials we require as well as keeping our builds and strategies competitive.

It pays off. We regularly destroy groups two or three times our size, and backed by the rest of the people I mentioned above we can shatter entire maps and take the most tenaciously held keeps. We work for those results, and see the rewards for them, and when we play poorly we are defeated as we should be.

Small groups have a role to play taking camps, undefended towers and severing supply lines, but to suggest that they work harder due to some mystical inferiority complex is ignorant at best. Of course random players ride zergs for easy rewards, but punishing the workhorses of those groups for being successful and drawing in fair-weathers is pointless.

To address the topic itself: The reason zergs exist is because of AoE capping, map size, siege mechanics and, yes, uniform rewards. A supply cap of 20 would assist smaller groups, but do nothing to stop zerging from being extremely popular, and indeed would only make large-scale operations easier.

Watching prodigy slowly go more and more manic in this thread has been the best part of the match-up.

Necrotize.2974:

The problem I have with HS is not that its hard to deal with, it is just the passivity of basically all of warrior’s healing. Warriors should have to properly manage their heals like other classes instead of just having slot and forget traits/skills that just do it for them and aren’t worth using. A slight minor problem that emerges from this is that it is impossible to interrupt their passive healing because there is nothing to interrupt.

Emphasis mine.

Here’s a serious question in rebuttal: Why?

A thief has no weapon cooldowns, something every other class has to work around. A mesmer gains distracting clones for performing their most basic functions, a benefit that no other class enjoys. Necromancers get a secondary health bar, and rangers have a ton of their DPS bound up into a creature that, ideally, should run itself (I know it doesn’t, but that’s a failure in realization not conception). Why is is so inconceivable that one warrior heal should act differently to every other in the game, by being a ‘passive’ asset?

And let’s consider that for a moment, how passive is the signet, really? As you say, a warrior who creates distance, safe haven and blocks/dodges well can regain a sizable portion of their health bar through their healing signet… but that isn’t passive play. Avoiding spike damage through those active measures is a conscious action that a) neuters their damage output and b) is reliant on cool-downs and c) is the result of active, personal and reasoned judgements . Add in the fact that the signet active is a pile of trash and it becomes a serious trade-off to take HS over one of our more active heals.

On top of that, a warrior doesn’t heave stealth, protection, aegis, illusions, death shroud or any other method of buffering their health bar from hurt. We eat damage directly, with only our toughness and vitality in between us and a re-spawn. Do you remember what the warrior was before the healing signet? Our class was joke, because the game is built around classes who all have some way around the problem of how to separate themselves from a direct comparison of DPS v Effective Health. Why does it knot so many panties that the solution for warrior was one different to that of any other class, and one in keeping with their design direction?

The real reason people get mad about healing signet is that it represents a direct counter to the condition reliance that many builds currently find popular. If the meta swung the way of burst damage, all these complaints and ‘suggestions’ would vanish.

If the bleed on the auto was changed to vulnerability, that would make a big difference right off the bat.

To the people complaining that banners are much better than their static utilities, and thus do not need work; Someone missing a hand does not need to stop hoping for a prosthetic just because other people in the world have lost their legs.

Banners are clunky right now in a way that conflicts with their purpose and, I would dare say, the hopes that the designers had for them. Asking for something simple like a means to retrieve them without stunning yourself for a second is not overkill. Hell, the core of my earlier suggestions all revolve around a simple fix; make the animation to pick up a banner the same as the one for improved supply pickups. That’s not OP, that’s not intensive coding, and it’s not an insult to you just because your spirits or traps or things aren’t that great. It’s just fixing a problem that exists.

Just because it’s just a smaller problem than yours doesn’t make it it invalid.

RazGerb.6173:

Ran in EBBL whole reset with [BLOW] and [SM] Running together to match up against these insane numbers.
Was some fun fights, but overall I died more than I got kills.
Kind of hard when you have much more experienced Skill groups running around.
Props to [RET],[GLOB],[ATK],and [CORE], well for giving us something to fight which didn’t end up well most of the time.
It’s great practice to go up against guilds like these but we have nowhere near the experience to wipe any of them, not counting how they blob together sometimes.
Yeah I was that Bronze Squire jumping around the map putting supply traps everywhere for fun.

I had 4 supply. 4 supply that was the product of a supply-mastery proc chain that had so far netted me something like 8-10 freebies, and we were going to go after even more together. But you took it away, before its time. You are a monster.

This is a copy-paste from another banner revamp thread, one in which back-mounted banners were suggested, but I think my suggestions are valid here also. Banners don’t need much work to jump from sub-par to competitive, my first (#1) suggestion alone would likely do this.

Ultrajoe.8674:

While back-banners are a popular idea, I think that takes the ease-of-use of banners too far the other way. They currently occupy a nearly-unique niche in the diverse moveset that the game offers. They’re indestructible, potent and have a high uptime, but currently they’re almost unusable because of how difficult they are to manage. The issue, however, is that that clunky management system is also what keeps banners balanced.

Any change to banners needs to keep all three major game modes in mind, and avoid buffing banners into must-have territory. To this end, my suggestion is a four-part addition to banner functionality.

1: Banners can be retrieved while moving, or the action is instant.

This change is a very simple one, conceptually. Currently, warriors or their allies must pause for a considerable period to retrieve a banner. This makes picking one up on the retreat, while trying to catch up to allies or in the middle of a fight a serious disadvantage. Hell, just dropping a banner preemptively is a pain, the anticipation factor is negated largely by the animation to pick it up! With this change, many issues with banner functionality are immediately solved. Nobody minds picking up a banner as they move on or give chase when they don’t have to self-CC to do so. As banners are currently a supportive bundle, I do not think this change is too powerful; to return to offensive actions, their bearer must still drop the banner.

2: #5 is no longer a blast finisher, and can be cast while moving. Now, Banner #5 has an effect on the banner itself. When placed with #5, the banner receives a small but persistent buff to its effective radius, removed when the banner is retrieved once more.

This change addresses the fact that, for the most part, it is usually more practical to drop a banner using your weapon swap rather than placing it manually. The blast finisher is quite nice, but roots the player for time they could better spend in most other situations. Now, for a moderate cast time, the player can plant their banner more deliberately for greater coverage, or drop it unceremoniously in a pinch. I also think it is important to remove the blast finisher from this skill, given change #1, which would make chaining finishers too strong even with no other alteration.

3: Banners have a burst skill (for warriors only, of course). When holding a banner, a warrior’s F1 skill becomes a 900 range ground target (120 radius). After a short cast time and animation (quite obvious, given the huge banner they are holding), the warrior hurls their banner at high-speed into the ground at the target location, bleeding (or tormenting, maybe) foes nearby, and triggering a blast finisher. This unequips the banner from the Warrior.

This is the big change, but the one which safely (I think) increases the appeal of banners without elevating them into stupidity. Now, only their parent class has access to this new ability, but one which makes banners more mobile, more threatening and More Active. Any player with eyes can avoid or dodge such an obvious cast, but in a team situation (which the banner is for!) the humble banner becomes an active, fun and offensive tool in the warrior’s kitten nal that can also trigger combo fields more precisely.

With all three changes:
– Banners are easier to move but remain distinct from an aura centered on the warrior.
– Others will not be disadvantaged by picking up your banner, allowing better team utilization.
– It still requires effort to move and place your banners, and rewards thoughtful placement of your banners both directly (through a larger radius) and indirectly (place it right the first time, and it won’t need much moving afterwards).
– Warriors are not denied their class feature when bearing one of their classes signature utility types.
– Warriors don’t feel carrying and replanting their banner is a chore.

I also do not think these changes favor any sector of the game over others, resulting in an overpowered move. All aspects of play have the main problems with banners addressed, without destroying their core functionality.

And hey, who doesn’t want banner-javelins, am I right?

The reason I quote this here is that I believe my third suggestion might be relevant to the OP. Why re-summon a banner for damage when we already have an under-used class mechanic to combine it with? While we’re at it, give Rampage a burst skill for god’s sake.

Just to add another voice: We had a host of disconnects and black-screens at reset on EBG, mostly centered on our AUS players.

Aside from that: Great opening action from all sides this week, I’m honestly not sure how it will pan out. Here’s hoping for good action seven days straight. GLOB will likely be looking for GvG later in the week, so keep us in mind if you’re after a match.

nomdeplums.5780:

Sincere thanks to GLOB for taking the time to GvG both RET and HOPE back-to-back. Those were some fun fights to participate in and watch.

We hope that GLOB stays active in the GvG scene, and that more YB guilds become interested in it and rise to the challenge. It would be very nice to see a larger field of competition in silver league.

It took a post in the matchup thread, by someone from a different server, to inform me that I forgot GvG in order to watch Disney music remixes on youtube.

I’m in trouble.

I just hope they don’t break the class because of our dominance in SPvP with the UF build. I play a sturdy WvW warrior, and like where we are currently as a frontline thug.

I honestly think the only problem not tied to how we counter the current Meta is the massive base damage on hammer. Just make it into a controlling weapon instead of a one-stop rock-shop, and most of the other secondary issues fade into the background.

I’ll repeat my long-standing trio of banner change suggestions here;

1: No pause to pick up a banner, the same as upgraded supply mastery. That’s half the problems with ease-of-use solved right there.

2: Banner #5 is no longer a blast finisher. Now, banner #5 provides a buff to the banner itself that increases its range of effect until it is picked up again. Why no blast? Because with change 1 it would be too easily abused for stack-buffing. Now it serves as a distinction between discarding the banner and placing it more deliberately.

3: When holding a banner, Warriors have access to a banner burst skill. There is no reason for a warrior-unique utility to block a warrior’s access to their profession skill, same goes for Rampage. Warriors can activate this burst skill to hurl their banner (lengthy, obvious animation, but near-instant projectile speed) as a ground target (900 range & 160 radius, IMO) blast finisher, to replace the removal of blasts from suggestion 2. What should this ground target do? I don’t know, what do you think it should do? Damage? Buff allies? Apply conditions to foes?

These three changes retain the character of banners, something that back-mounting them does not do. With these changes banners are now more mobile, less self-disruptive and have three ways of getting into a useful position; dropping, placing with #5 or being hurled via burst skill. Their utility in PvE is unaffected, while the problems they face in SPvP and WvW (the mobile nature of the fights) are largely salved without making banners automatic perma-buffs.

Banners are amazing as is, but you should need to put effort into keeping them near to you. The solution is to make that management less painful, not to remove it, that just makes banners overpowered. With these three changes, you can manage your banners without self-stunning yourself every time you need to shift them.

I know I (An avid WvW player) would use a banner in every build if these changes were made, as it stands now I can’t afford to spare the seconds it takes to shift the kitten things around. Remove that roadblock, and we’ll see more of these amazing utilities.

If I might offer an idea: Circumvent the issue of world population.

Why are teams and scores based on servers? A server holds all sorts of players. Some hold so many or so few players interested in WvW that the experience becomes horrible because of queues or a constant state of outmanned.

Why, instead, are we not assigned (by ourselves or another agent) to a Team/Army? In addition, or instead of said teams, why is our score tied to our server? Perhaps players could accrue score tied directly to their character or guild, so that they are not let down or propped up by a lackluster/stellar population in other timezones in their server.

Is it possible to approach the idea of a Meta WvW achievement/reward from the other end? Instead of tying eligibility for the reward to a floor-level of WvW participation, maybe players or guilds could sign up as ’Soldier’s of Fortune’. Only players who have elected to be in this state can receive the veteran title, the meta chest and any of it’s attendant rewards.

While a Soldier of Fortune, or ‘Mercenary’ or something, guilds or players can fight on behalf on any server/team (with a limit on switches), and generate score tied to themselves directly. Now, in achieving score during a league they unlock higher and higher tiers of reward for themselves, and in doing so prevent others from achieving those rewards, retaining the competitive spirit of WvW. Perhaps joining beleaguered servers invokes a beneficial score adjustment? There would need to be limit on how often you switched teams, obviously.

TL;DR This is a big mish-mash of ideas, many conflicting and very likely flawed, but all tied to the idea that once you sever rewards and WvW allegiance from the player’s hosting server, the population issue simply ceases to exist. Perhaps other players have ideas on this theme?

A separate idea: When you have the out-manned buff, your ‘home’ (your third of EBG and everything in your BL except the southern towers) objectives on that map are worth more score to your team, up to a maximum total PPT (So if you would generate 300 naturally, this buff wouldn’t kick in even if you were outmanned). This provokes the enemy into attacking, instead of just holding their lead and extending the gap (because that gap will grow much more slowly with this buff). It makes defense a viable tactic for the out-manned, instead of dooming them to the impotent situation of needing to attack but being unable. It makes said defenses worthwhile, and it prevents an imbalance in one timezone completely undoing the otherwise balanced clashes of the teams in prime-time. It also makes striking at a borderlands controlled heavily by the enemy, but poorly defended, not only attractive but essential in pushing down their score to allow your team to pull ahead.

Loken.9724:

No actually we don’t draw pugs. Its not our job to hold some kittening baddies hand around wvw. We typically tell them to kitten off or we get our friends from other servers to come over and kill them and than we /salute and move on with our lives.

I’m not sure if you’re joking or not, but if you aren’t it would correlate with some of what we’ve been seeing from you guys. And quite seriously, that might be all that has turned the score into what it is, good use of pug resources. You’ve got to work with what you’ve got, unless you’ve discovered a way to preference your guildmates and WvW crew in the queue. I would say our pugmanders and community coordination have been our biggest asset this matchup.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

LOL YB run in 15 man groups??

Either you are literally the only 15 man group, or you are just full of kitten. I wish I could see YB do anything other than massive zerg. It would be really great, and probably wouldn’t have tainted my opinion of your server. So far in every single 1v1 it’s been a win, I’ve accumulated over 50 kills, 10 stomps by catching your guys running to the zerg. The absolute worst part is that no one even fights back anymore. Once I’ve caught them and applied 10-15 bleeds they just stop and wait (some f4 ). I don’t stomp the ones that fight, those others are dead.

Hi. I am from GLOB, from YB. We are almost exclusively a small-group guild. At the peak of our guild WvW we can reach 20 people. We are only one of 5-6 similarly sized guilds. I have no reason to lie about this, you can check out our videos or streamers, we aren’t a blobby group of folk.

So, I don’t know where this confusion about Yak’s being universally serverblob came from, but I’m just dropping by to let you know that you’re misinformed about our unit sizes. Maybe you’re just unlucky with the groups you run into. It must be said, though, we don’t have a very large roamer community, so maybe that’s why you’re having trouble finding duels. Maybe if you had less roamers and more WvW players you’d own your borderlands? Who knows.

One of Vallun’s guildmates here. If this guy is a bot we’re all doomed, because they could outplay just about all of us. Please unban him, we need him for GvG tomorrow.

1: Account bound WXP
2: Commander Functionality
3: Blob Meta/Server imbalance

Thanks from [GLOB] to EB and BP for the fights on EBBL these past 5-6 hours. It has been a blast from the start. Excellent displays of skill and tenacity from all three teams, on the open the field it’s been more fun than I’ve had in a long time. For every triumph we seemed to achieve (Highlight; Holding swiss cheese bay) you were right there to smash us apart with your own victories. Loving this matchup so far.

Credit to EB for retaking control of the map as of now, I thought we might push and wrangle control of garrison, but you guys die kitten , kitten hard.

PizzaSHARK.2741:

Either way, the idea is to make banners a little less of a pain in the kitten to micromanage without making them too good.

All you need for that is the ability to pick them up without stopping. Be that instant or on the move, that one change makes banners far easier to move for warriors or their friends alike. People without AoE swiftness will pick them up when moving as a group, people without a blast finisher will happily tote them to a stacking point, in general they become appealing beyond their basic buff function.

As mentioned in my earlier post, however, if they become an instant pickup (as would be preferred), they then become too strong as a blast finisher, which is why I suggest that functionality is removed from #5 and placed on the burst skill, where it is limited naturally by adrenaline production and cooldown.

Ahlen.7591:

Banners are fine, what fights are you doing where banner doesn’t cover the entire area of the fight? Once the fight is over, collect your banner and move to the next fight.

Almost any WvW fight will spill outside the area covered by your banners, sometimes immediately. This is a lesser problem in PvP, but still a factor that limits the usefulness of banners. Most suggestions here are intended, I assume, to address the problem of banners in WvW and PvP, without affecting their viability as a PvE asset.

Arius.7031:

milton.1796:

I didn’t feel like I was praised at the end…

Really? All of the cheering/bowing/saluting of almost every single NPC in fort Trinity for you after both the Source of Orr and Victory or Death didn’t make you feel praised? The fact that each member of Destiny’s Edge literally gave you credit for defeating the big bad didn’t make you feel praised? What will make you feel praised? People sacrificing themselves upon an alter, in front of a statue of you, while muttering your name?

You’re confusing script with substance. Applying similar semantics, the Starship Troopers movie is a glowing praise of militarism and war. I mean, they all cheer about it and smile about battle! The fact is, that just because a story has the trapping of a narrative, does not mean readers of the media will find it a true representation of that narrative. There are two parts to this;

1: Performance.

If all performances were the same, a production of ‘Waiting for Godot’ from a bunch of hastily-schooled homeless would be no less engaging than one by Sir Ian McKellen. The extreme here is valid, I am demonstrating a clear difference.
How does this apply to Trahearne? His voice acting is dull. It is monotonous and lacking in character. I do not see how you could contest this point. His variation in tone is mostly nill, his pace of speech is dogged and constant, and he mistakes emphasis for excitement. He does not falter in pace when talking about his doubts, he just pauses more. He does not raise his voice when trying to rouse troops, he just increases his volume. Theodin, Kirrahe, Henry V and others did not inspire fervor by merely talking loudly, the difference is the same between talking quietly and whispering, they are entirely different ways of using your vocal chords. I am sorry, but I do not think it can be contested that Trahearne is a failed performance, he conveys no emotion (the stuff of character) with almost all of his lines.
In a lesser manner, Trahearne’s relative uselessness as an NPC companion does a similar job of undermining his believably as a military leader with a magic sword as his flat affect does for his commanding rank.

2: Story Structure/Agency.

You say the player is the hero of the story, because we are showered with accolades after victories. I think this is ignoring entirely the issue of agency.

In our personal story up until the introduction of Trahearne, the player character is depicted as a very active agent, both in the narrative and in terms of player choices. The player determines much of their direction within the story, and on a closer level their character expresses expertise and awareness. The early Asura quests are a perfect example of a very active character. The player character injects ideas, objections and observations directly into conversations on their own initiative.
Low-level Asuras surprise others with their actions and intelligence, and often act without the knowledge of their current overseer, Zojja. In one story arc (infinity ball), they disobey Zojja’s express orders to pursue an endeavor suggested by another character, whom they deal with as an equal and whose ideas they develop and contribute to directly.
This agency and initiative vanishes with the introduction of Trahearne. He is an all-knowing Orrian scholar, command figure and information nexus. He directs the player through tasks with only cursory explanations of their larger implications, summons a fort from nowhere (in terms of the player’s own participation) and accompanies players on missions that do not contribute to a larger narrative arc. This is all terribly jarring for those players who did not encounter Trahearne earlier in the story by picking a Sylvari character.
The player is not in control of their own actions, they lack agency, the stuff of heroes. The player does not input anything to the story, they are actors in the unfolding story of the pact, and by extension Trahearne. It is not their own.

Trahearne’s role eliminates player agency, which directly takes the personal out of ‘Personal Story’. This is fairly basic narrative construction stuff, and it’s fairly obvious when you look at the story before and after the introduction of the Marshal. The player ceases to contribute to the story in any meaningful way. It’s the same reason the ending to ME3 was so poorly received, a game based on player agency ends in a sequence devoid of any of that same stuff.

To put it another way; Where there’s smoke there’s fire. Standing in opposition to an unsatisfied majority and telling them they simply don’t understand is missing the point. It doesn’t matter how many technicalities you invoke, a story that fails to resolve the expectations of its readers is a failed story. Unless you mean to imply that Guild Wars 2 is a gigantic deconstruction of the fantasy archetype, in which case I salute your cojones.

While back-banners are a popular idea, I think that takes the ease-of-use of banners too far the other way. They currently occupy a nearly-unique niche in the diverse moveset that the game offers. They’re indestructible, potent and have a high uptime, but currently they’re almost unusable because of how difficult they are to manage. The issue, however, is that that clunky management system is also what keeps banners balanced.

Any change to banners needs to keep all three major game modes in mind, and avoid buffing banners into must-have territory. To this end, my suggestion is a four-part addition to banner functionality.

1: Banners can be retrieved while moving, or the action is instant.

This change is a very simple one, conceptually. Currently, warriors or their allies must pause for a considerable period to retrieve a banner. This makes picking one up on the retreat, while trying to catch up to allies or in the middle of a fight a serious disadvantage. Hell, just dropping a banner preemptively is a pain, the anticipation factor is negated largely by the animation to pick it up! With this change, many issues with banner functionality are immediately solved. Nobody minds picking up a banner as they move on or give chase when they don’t have to self-CC to do so. As banners are currently a supportive bundle, I do not think this change is too powerful; to return to offensive actions, their bearer must still drop the banner.

2: #5 is no longer a blast finisher, and can be cast while moving. Now, Banner #5 has an effect on the banner itself. When placed with #5, the banner receives a small but persistent buff to its effective radius, removed when the banner is retrieved once more.

This change addresses the fact that, for the most part, it is usually more practical to drop a banner using your weapon swap rather than placing it manually. The blast finisher is quite nice, but roots the player for time they could better spend in most other situations. Now, for a moderate cast time, the player can plant their banner more deliberately for greater coverage, or drop it unceremoniously in a pinch. I also think it is important to remove the blast finisher from this skill, given change #1, which would make chaining finishers too strong even with no other alteration.

3: Banners have a burst skill (for warriors only, of course). When holding a banner, a warrior’s F1 skill becomes a 900 range ground target (120 radius). After a short cast time and animation (quite obvious, given the huge banner they are holding), the warrior hurls their banner at high-speed into the ground at the target location, bleeding (or tormenting, maybe) foes nearby, and triggering a blast finisher. This unequips the banner from the Warrior.

This is the big change, but the one which safely (I think) increases the appeal of banners without elevating them into stupidity. Now, only their parent class has access to this new ability, but one which makes banners more mobile, more threatening and More Active. Any player with eyes can avoid or dodge such an obvious cast, but in a team situation (which the banner is for!) the humble banner becomes an active, fun and offensive tool in the warrior’s kitten nal that can also trigger combo fields more precisely.

With all three changes:
– Banners are easier to move but remain distinct from an aura centered on the warrior.
– Others will not be disadvantaged by picking up your banner, allowing better team utilization.
– It still requires effort to move and place your banners, and rewards thoughtful placement of your banners both directly (through a larger radius) and indirectly (place it right the first time, and it won’t need much moving afterwards).
– Warriors are not denied their class feature when bearing one of their classes signature utility types.
– Warriors don’t feel carrying and replanting their banner is a chore.

I also do not think these changes favor any sector of the game over others, resulting in an overpowered move. All aspects of play have the main problems with banners addressed, without destroying their core functionality.

And hey, who doesn’t want banner-javelins, am I right?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

You wrote a big chunk of text about your stats that I didn’t really read, because your damage is still going to suck if you are in soldier gear. Any DPS you are managing to scrape out from your gear spread is from the zerker gear, not the soldier’s. You could drop the soldier pieces for clerics or any other similarly defense-only prefix and not notice much difference in the speed anything dies.

Again, if you want to tank, go conditions. That is why they exist, they’re the low-investment, moderate reward option for damage, versus direct damage which is high-investment, maximum reward.

But in WvW soldier’s, shouts and hammers go together like a great meal. If you’re not talking about WvW then ignore me all together, I have misread your comments.

Conditions might maximize the mileage you’re getting out of your offensive stats, but how much of your play as a melee meatwall will benefit from this? Your hammer doesn’t apply conditions, and while your sword does apply them, the only common reason you’d have it out is to leap or toot the warhorn. The current warrior meta build is a workhorse for boons, conditions, healing, mobility and stuns, but the one thing it doesn’t have is consistent condition uptime. PVT gear plays to the strengths of our most valued role, which is not determined by stats but by what we can bring to the table, which is a seriously beefy offensive support toolkit. The damage we deal is direct, often indiscriminate and secondary to our other functions, perfect for a nice big power score.

For myself and a few other players in my guild, leaving an Alpha Siege Golem has resulted in a frozen game client. This has happened twice to myself and multiple times to my guildmates.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Hence, this is why I believe the key to balancing warrior is through our burst attacks and weapons.

Give us a way to mitigate damage or stop attacks without giving passive defenses and you will make even some dps builds somewhat reliable of living longer.

The problem is that as a platform for features, the warrior runs the risk of loading way too much of its ability into very few skills. Barring our utility skills (which are probably fine as is), all we have are weapon skills and our burst, which is an attack bound to a fairly basic resource bar. Mesmers have clones, engineers their kits and most other classes a form of alternate play that can be loaded with features and thus distribute the concentration of power. I don’t think warriors need more features like this, and I don’t think other classes need less, this isn’t a whine about the toys other players get. But it is the primary problem when talking about adding more sustainability to the warrior; Where can you put it that it isn’t going to be too strong and mandatory, or worse, passive and boring?

Active mitigation is awesome, and warriors would relish the heightened skill cap that comes with such a change, but we already have a great deal of blocks and few other options fit the warrior style. Protection and Aegis are the forte of the Guardian, I don’t believe they are ours to request or want. Blurring/autoevasion moves are not aligned with the solid and bruiser-like aesthetic/design of the warrior, and healing buffs rapidly scale from sup-par to monstrous when used as a salve for suitability issues. Where does the Warrior turn to for his mitigation?

I believe the answer is dodging. Dodging is powerful in proportion to player skill, core to the game’s features and not already loaded with a great deal of a warrior’s power. It is divorced from our burst, weapon skills and healing, so it can be tweaked without fear of overcharging any of those skills. In addition, while dodging a warrior is performing no other action, it cancels casts and only a warrior’s condition damage can continue reliably while dodging, it can only be a purely defensive action (barring reckless dodge), making it the perfect fit for our ailing sustain abilities while building for damage. It also meshes nicely with our existing strengths in mobility. I have been thinking since my first reply to this thread (and in others concerning Spikes) and I believe that across the board warriors would benefit from more opportunities to dodge, not just those with 30 points in defense.

Although, with the thread in mind, consider this as a replacement for spiked armor;

‘Roll With the Punches; Enemy critical hits restore a small amount of endurance (X second internal cooldown)’

This focus on dodging as a core source of mitigation can be implemented across the trees through more abundant vitality, direct restoration sources from traits and other sources I am sure I cannot imagine (feel free to suggest more). Anyway, that’s my big, fat 2 cents on the issue.

The issue is that spending adrenaline relies on the burst attack connecting, which bind and dodges can make quite difficult. I do not believe it is as bad as many players believe, but it does seriously restrict the usefulness of adrenaline-spent moves. Another player pointed out to me in a different thread the fact that retaliation is not, itself, a defensive asset when only active for a few seconds. It does not deter damage, even if it does assist your offensive potential.

In addition, gating our defenses behind enemy critical hits does mean they have a slight pressure trigger, but it also means that a defensive warrior needs to take a large amount of damage to… take less damage. This skill also means that to have access to protection, we give up our Adrenal Health regeneration, which is actually a problematic trade-off considering how easily boons can be stripped, stolen or converted. Not to mention it imitates too closely cleansing ire, and variety in traits is an important measure of how viable and interesting a class is.

I like this idea as a concept, even if not personally, and I am only voicing some possible problems with it as a feature of game design. There are plenty of positives on the face of the idea, so don’t think I’m just brushing it off.

TheGuy.3568:

A little break down about retal. Strong single hit skills will not maximize retal. Condition specs not running rabid will make the trigger intermittent. Please read my OP about “Empowered”. Retal no longer hits hard enough to be a true defensive dps deterrent ie, “I wont hit you because I fear retaliation” . As a defensive trait ti will not keep us in the fight an longer. It does not mitigate damage at all. 5 second up time would require that to fully utilize the skill you get hit during those 5 seconds. Due to our weak sustainability this is counter intuitive. A 30 point defensive trait should be a 30 point defensive trait that improves defense.

I concede your point, it is not an attractive defensive trait, which makes it inappropriate for the Defense tree grandmaster slot. It might be a valid tactics pick at Master, but that’s a different discussion altogether.

I myself am less keen for protection, I don’t see it as a Warrior class feature and it would be our only source of the buff. I prefer toughness and big health pools, well healed, over protection. It just strikes me as a Guardian thing. They’re the guys who go in for fancy magic shields, warriors just die kitten their own merit. I see block as a far more warrior-style form of damage mitigation, or applying weakness to our foes. Perhaps enemy critical hits can trigger one of those in an appropriate fashion? My objection is based purely in preference and my sense of what makes a warrior, protection just doesn’t seem like a part of our kit, mechanically or stylistically.

Edit: ‘Hard’, and then the word ‘on’, triggers kitten. I am amused and bemused.

Nretep.2564:

Imagine a PvP map with two players with the current system. One traited for underwater combat, one for normal. The first one disappears and waits underwater, the second one waits in the middle of his footings. No time limit.

But that’s precisely why the game has control points and methods of scoring beyond kills in every form of PvP, and some of those points are indeed underwater. There can’t be that kind of stalemate, the situation will never arise as described.

Nretep.2564:

Yeah, just because “you get wet”.

If you actively switch traits in fights (as good ppl do), you realize that almost none of the weapon traits make sense underwater. Do you think anyone would put a weapon trait only for underwater weapon into his/her default trait setup? Or all groundtargeted skills are lost. Imagine you’d put all your traits into a group of spells (like well necro) and once you are underwater all traits simply do nothing?

But that’s half the point, if you aren’t traited into fighting underwater then you’re going to do poorly when you get dragged into a nautical engagement. Some builds are glassy, others tanky, and others take traits that have usefulness in aquatic combat. Having a new trait setup take over for submerging makes no sense, it’s a handy feature from the gameplay perspective yes, convenient for sure, but it’s not consistent with how traits are currently employed.

Currently, the idea is that changing your allocations is all you can do without paying a fee, and even that is not designed with quick swapping mid-battle in mind. You are stuck with your point allegations for any conceivable challenge. Should you have a trait change for jumping puzzles, so you can have reduced fall damage? Should you switch to a tanky setup when you start taking damage, or have a different trait set for when defending a siege or attacking a tower? All you’re doing is going underwater, it’s no different from switching from single to multi-target battles or from a PvE to PvP environment, your traits stand as they exist regardless of the environment. You don’t need your hand held and your stats automatically made more appropriate for underwater, like any other part of the game you play with what you’ve picked.

Being able to swap trait configurations, as outlined in the OP, is an out-of-combat, deliberate action designed to offer versatility. Automatic application of a ready-made aquatic trait kit is unnecessary. As I said, you don’t get a tree for any other marginally uncommon situation you might run into; you play with what you picked, be that under the waves or atop Morgan’s Spiral.

Nretep.2564:

Has been suggested before … about once a month or so.

And to clarify,
Instead of just making a distinction between PvE, PvP and WvW they should make for underwater and normal as well. So a single character would have 6 different trait builds and skill slots.
Right now they have 2 different trait builds and 4 different skill slots … weird.

Why would you change traits when you moved underwater? All it does is change your weapons and available skills, and it doesn’t break combat or alter the game. If a fight spills underwater, as it often will in PvP, it would be very strange to have your loadout and traits change just because you dropped underwater. Hell, you could slip in and out of the water to switch your traits back and forth like crazy. Given what some of those traits do, that’s a pretty hectic change. Switching trait builds would be an out-of-combat action, for basic balance reasons, having an automatic switch take place just because you get wet is… silly? I don’t mean that in an insulting way, it just doesn’t make any sense.

Why not just toot your warhorn and use Signet of Rage? If you have just about any boon duration this achieves permasprint with far less hassle.

Change the 5 point tactics minor to ‘Blind Insight’, which provides a 3-second internal cooldown preventing a warrior being blinded after an application of blind has worn off. This is the first idea just off the top of my head. It requires an investment of points, is not a direct counter to blind and is not in a tree associated with damage.

TheGuy.3568:

Ultrajoe.8674:

Speaking purely from the WvW perspective, Spiked Armor is still fun even after the nerf. I would be sad to see it go, personally.

You have to put it in perspective. Compared to defy pain it just doesn’t add up as a 30 point trait. In most builds cross class it will not hold it’s weight. I use it too but I am not worried about losing it. As a trait it has no real place in the line. Half the lower traits are more useful simply due to the way the class is designed. I am not saying it can not be used but that it’s time for it to go in place of a true grand master worthy defensive trait.

Think about the first response moving it to 5 points.

I contest this, though. In any multi-target situation the skill will deal thousands of damage and will be easily triggered every cooldown, for a marvelous uptime and a nice fat chunk of hurt. Even nerfed, Retaliation is incredibly fun and combined with ‘Empowered’ it will even make itself stronger! As a minor trait it would grant us far too much for simply spending points, and make the defensive tree stronger than it already is. I also don’t think it’s underwhelming for a grandmaster trait. It’s passive and situational, but it’s also very useful in the cases it was intended for. I would counsel that, if at all, it should be moved down a tier to free up a grandmaster slot.

What would you replace it with, incidentally, if it was removed from grandmaster?

Speaking purely from the WvW perspective, Spiked Armor is still fun even after the nerf. I would be sad to see it go, personally.

Any opinions on banners? I’ve been toting them on behalf of my guild to decent effect, but I’m interested in your opinion.

EDIT: I’m running a full Defense and Tactics build, PTV armor and Melandru runes (they were cheap, don’t tase me bro) with banner traits and the other usual suspects. The last ten points changes from time to time as I work out the best use for them.

Cactus.2710:

So let me get this straight. Two thieves join together to alternately stealth each other, gang up to “focus” kill you while your 18 other buddies don’t do anything to help you, and you think thieves need to be nerfed as a result? I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at that.

18 players should have been able to chain stun the hell out of those two thieves who had to be right on top of you to kill you. Stealth or not, if you were dying, EVERYBODY had to know pretty much exactly where they were.

These kinds of lame kitten posts are getting pretty old …

Chain stunning a thief is a nice idea but with so many teleporting stunbreaks it’s laughable to any thief who can still press buttons on his keyboard. Hell, I play a thief and I think we’re overpowered. All you need to do is hang back until the enemy moves on and then attack, repeat ad nauseum, you can never be killed and the bags flow freely.

Fenrir.5493:

Imagine a burst ability that will buff your allies and make some AOE condition damage depending on the banner, would be awesome.

By the way, any suggestion is welcomed here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/The-Topic-that-will-fix-the-warriors/first

Any suggestions on warrior there plz.

I have already posted my banner suggestions on the suggestion forums separately. Feel free to quote me into that thread yourself but I would prefer not to say the same thing in multiple threads.

I think banners are nearly fine as they are, in terms of stats and boons, I run a full suite of them in PvE and WvW and I love what they bring to a group. Fully traited they heal your buddes, damage your foes and provide some of the best buffs in the game. I don’t think they need more grunt in terms of numbers.

Banners worn on the back are a neat idea to help with mobility, but then they become an AoE signet (one you need to refresh), very, very powerful for what they do and lacking the unique interaction that makes banners stand out. Carrying banners keeps their power in perspective, but currently it isn’t very enjoyable, it’s a bit of a chore. I like your suggestion, but I would offer an alternative way to incorporate your boon ides; Have them grant those boons upon being summoned.

Defense grants protection to allies when it arrives. Discipline grants fury. Strength grants might to allies, and Tactics applies a heal. Because of their very long cooldown, 120 seconds untraited, these relatively small effects only have one impact; They make placing banners important, they make their use something to be considered and the site of their placement matter beyond touching as many friends as possible. It rewards smart placement. It also brings them in line with the Warbanner, which itself has a powerful on-arrival ability.

I would also include one more thing (an idea I always go on about); When carried by a Warrior, banners have a Burst Skill, just like any other weapon. If we are expected (or like, as I do) to carry our banners, and have them take up a large chunk of our utility skill library, then they should not prevent us from accessing a vital class feature. Especially now, with Cleasing Ire so vital to handling conditions, a weapon that precludes us from carrying a warhorn needs to allow us to burst.

And, finally, have the ‘Inspiring Banners’ trait unlock an attack chain for banners when wielded by a warrior with that trait. If you’re putting that many points towards having better banners, I think you can manage something more impressive than slapping your enemy with it repeatedly. A simple, three attack cycle consisting of a slap, a stab and a slam, with the slam applying vulnerability.

Anyway, just my thoughts as a lover of banners.

My opinion; Rampage needs three changes to become viable.

1) An attack chain on 1, and for 1 to be automatically set to auto-attack.
2) Give rampage a burst skill. I wouldn’t make Rampage end on its use, because generating and spending adrenaline is the basis for Cleansing Ire, something a Juggernaut would benefit from. I believe this skill should be a shout/blast/smash centered on the player that cripples and burns enemies within a 600 radius.
3) Allow the use of utility skills. Some utility skills would be too strong on a juggernaut form, so I propose that the form has its own utility bar, with some skills restricted like those available when underwater.

Its cool-down and the duration of its stability are another matter, but I believe the rampage form itself would be much more enjoyable to play and effective in its role with these changes. It is a highly disruptive form, but without an inherent threat all it serves as is a minor annoyance.

Other possible changes are a way to access might, protection or a large boost to toughness in the form. I did not include these above because I think these might be too powerful, and they are strictly concerned with numbers balance, while the suggestions above are about fun and usefulness.

runeblade.7514:

Kukchi.6173:

If you think warrior is fine and we received buffs, then you are ignorant.

A condition removal that removes 3 conditions for every 7-10 seconds is not a buff?

If the attack lands. I don’t know if you’re familiar with a little thing called ‘blind’, it got buffed this last patch…

Conncept.7638:

What about an impale skill? Or a jump skill similar to Dragoons in Final fantasy?

That would likely be too much like the warhammer burst, which fills the role of AoE leap very nicely. In keeping with the spirit of banners, I believe it should be both an attack (as it is a burst skill) and a group asset. I had a thought that perhaps it could be a leaping strike, perhaps with a 600 range instead of Eviscerates 300, that inflicts vulnerability (not much) on enemies near the target and grants might to allies in the same area. It compels the user of the skill to do what warriors and banners should do best; get into the thickest part of the fighting.

Additional note: With ‘Cleansing Ire’ now in the game, the ability to spend adrenaline is crucial to a warrior’s sustainability. Locking this away in warrior-only forms and weapon packages is a serious problem, something this change would go some ways to address.

Mist Y.5214:

What is a non-warrior picks up the banner..?

As they can’t use burst skills, they’d simply have access to the same moves and buff as before. This helps limit this ‘buff’ to warriors only, allowing them to have more fun, without risking any potential balance problems?

This idea is brilliant, it promotes the use of burst skills and rewards warriors for staying in the thick of the fight, which the class should always love to do.

Mungrul.9358:

Rampage is in desperate need of improvement, and giving it a burst skill would make sense.

I hadn’t considered this, and it makes perfect sense. For a warrior elite, it seems silly to not have an accompanying burst ability. I also understand why utility skills are restricted while in Juggernaut form, but perhaps a reduced pool of moves could be available, like while underwater? Perhaps as a Burst Skill, Juggernauts could consume conditions to increase the duration of the form? This change would help them deal with the sacrificed condition removal inherent to the form, as well as letting them be stompy for even longer.

Barring that, perhaps physically throwing a target enemy away as a ground targeted projectile? (They’d be immune to fall damage, obviously) It would be a very characteristic way for a juggernaut to handle some puny assailant, as well as play to the core strengths of the form; disruption of the enemy.

As a third idea, have it convert adrenaline into a buff for giving melee attacks splash damage, it seems odd that the ‘Ultimate Warrior’ lacks the multi-target abilities of his less angry brethren.

Currently, banners are lacking in appeal from a gameplay perspective, which is a shame because the stats they bring to any group are stunning. For all they contribute to a group, however, they take little skill to use and prevent the warrior from taking other, more enjoyable skills. Even if they only take a single banner, picking up that banner to move it or keep it applied to a moving group is an exercise in banality. For those rare warriors who like to provide two, three or even four banners to their party, the fun-factor of being such a group asset quickly plummets. And it is fun this suggestion is intended to address; it is a game, after all, played for enjoyment.

It’s difficult to buff the 1-5 skills on banners without making them too strong, especially given that any profession can pick them up. For this reason, I suggest that banners give access to a burst skill when held by warriors. This limits this ability and the inherent ‘buff’ to a single profession. Banners retain their role as mobile buffs and powerful group assets, but warriors who bring them to the show can now wade into combat bearing their cross a little more enthusiastically.

I would theorize that this burst skill would be the same for each banner, even the warbanner, for the sake of simplicity. I would love to hear any suggestions for what this skill should be, as I have little idea beyond the notion that this change would improve quality of life for warriors who elect to bear a banner for their party. Perhaps a short rage leap strike that transfers conditions from allies to that foe? Or an AOE stun on par with that seen on spears? A move like this would make it attractive for warriors to bear their banners, which is nice for everyone.

Ideas, additions or vengeful peanuts from the gallery?

Note: Reposted here from the Warrior board, as I didn’t know about this section of the forum before I made that thread.

Currently, banners are lacking in appeal from a gameplay perspective, which is a shame because the stats they bring to any group are stunning. For all they contribute to a group, they take little skill to use and prevent the warrior from taking other, more enjoyable skills. Even if they only take a single banner, picking up that banner to move it or keep it applied to a moving group is an exercise in banality. For those rare warriors who like to provide two, three or even four banners to their party, the fun-factor of being such a group asset quickly plummets. And it is fun this suggestion is intended to address; it is a game, after all, played for enjoyment.

It’s difficult to buff the 1-5 skills on banners without making them too strong, especially given that any profession can pick them up. For this reason, I suggest that banners give access to a burst skill when held by warriors. This limits this ability and the inherent ‘buff’ to a single profession.

I would theorize that this burst skill would be the same for each banner, even the warbanner, for the sake of simplicity. I would love to hear any suggestions for what this skill should be, as I have little idea beyond the notion that this change would improve quality of life for warriors who elect to bear a banner for their party. Perhaps a short rage leap strike that transfers conditions from allies to that foe? Or an AOE stun on par with that seen on spears? A move like this would make it attractive for warriors to bear their banners, which is nice for everyone.

Ideas, additions or vengeful peanuts from the gallery?