Guild Wars 2

I called specific things elitist. Ok in admission me and a -lot- of people have abused that word as of late, but it still stands. As well, I use the word to it’s definition, not a straight insult designed to make another group feel bad. I feel for example that the expectation to follow one single set of instructions to win a dungeon and getting insulted when choosing to speak against it, is elitist. that isn’t to insult personally everyone who feels that it, its not just a blanket attack to hurt others.

Ok, that’s not a full justification, but keep in mind, a lot of people insult me quite heavily for those words, why should this guy get a pass?

It’s almost like the people complaining has a point, that people stacking in a wall in such a way that it clearly was not intended, was not a good thing. And when people rightly complained, we are somehow bad people? Do you even know what the word casual means? The fact your using it as a rather offensive insult claims otherwise.

News flash, if Anet felt that was an intended fair action, they wouldn’t have tried(and failed) to punish the action.

Talk about condescending. You just threw the “Casual” label to insult an entire group of people, all because they had an opinion that wasn’t your own. You made malicious and callous words designed to hurt the people you in an extreme and ridiculous manner.
Then you make a personal insult to me, when I have no idea who you are, with a nickname I clearly did not pass off on, and use me as a scapegoat for your malicious attacks.

Anyone who claims that the society is perfectly healthy, the fact I get THIS treatment on my mere existence, is proof enough we have a problem.

You know…I know why Anet did this. I know why Anet added the poison thing. People were stacking to such a degree that is actually stopped being meaningful. The problem is all it did was make the boss needlessly more difficult to try and punish the people abusing stacking.
Anet needed to let us, the players, deny using that “stack against the wall” garbage, not punish the people who don’t do that. So yeah, many of her updates need to be nerfed back to their non-existent states.

1) Ok…I conceed on the build thing a little bit. Yes there is still a bigger problem of only one strategy. But either way, multiple tactics still so it’s a start.

2) Hardcore are people who put a lot of effort into the game and it’s systems. They are the people who work to develop new strategies, ideas, and expand the game through making all those ideas as strong as they can to the respective goals. Being active and just going through the dungeon claiming “Efficiency,” is not hardcore. again, see my instruction guide comment.

3) You’re first sentence killed the rest of the comment. “This build is best” is not the though process of someone whom truely understands this game, nor understands real hardcore gaming. the rest has nothing to do with my quote so I won’t address it.

4) See you’re own post when you say this. “The “instruction guide” is best” isn’t that case in point of the elitism? Anyway I do agree, it’s ok to ask for a speedrun group in LFG and kick when people don’t listen to your demands. However as I said, my issue is the frequency of them appearing. I have done dungeons enough to say this. -EVERY- time I try to dungeon run, 4/5 groups want “lvl 80, exp, zerks only.” It’s not that they exist, it’s that it’s become the expectation.

5 and most important)———————-

Did you not read what I said? 4/5 groups want to put zero effort and kick anyone whom doesn’t obey their one instruction guide called the metagame. Baulder’s Gate II has more of a metagame, and that game has terrible balancing. I was Told to “F&&&&&& KILL YOURSELF” for telling people not to abandon those whom were downed in a world event. I was called a burden, moronic, and a fool, -multiple- times on this forum and in game(worse in game) because I state that playing the game by one variable(DPS) is just stupid. I was told it was morally ok to kick people because they weren’t died all pink. All of that and you want to say there isn’t a problem?

All that being said….I do have to admit you made me rethinking my perspective a bit. What I’ve gone through in the tail end of me playing the game(I still haven’t decided if I want to play anymore, I hope I don’t get the treatment I did before) was just inexcusable. It’s left me very jaded and I shouldn’t be so pessimistic. Thank you for showing me that I have to let my previous anger go.

Can someone explain why this is somehow “wrong.” Yeah it sucks but again, why should Anet start setting off suspensions and bans because you get kicked to make room for a good friend, or because someones a jerk. Ok, someones a jerk…what can Anet do?
You can add a requirement to list a reason for the kick (see TF2 kicking, with more options), but really, why should Anet go berserk on people just for being jerks.

CalamityO.2890:

No Pulse.2967:

I was pugging AC P1 once. They decided to skip Kholer so I lured him into the burrow room where he obliterated everyone. 10 seconds later I saw the Plains of Ashford loading screen.

That is really bad in one way, but hilarious in another! xDD. Not surprised you got kicked.

I think it’s brilliant, I about died of laughter reading it, well done. But yeah that kind of made sense to kick.
However I think this is an issue to some degree Anet can do nothing about. What are they doing to do, suspend accounts for a while whom kick others to make room for friends? It’s not different then the people whom demanded pay to go into fractals, there just jerks. As much as I WANT this society to change, Anet won’t do it by issuing suspensions to anyone who causes mild trouble.

A chat update btw would be very nice, but won’t help.

Vikkella brings up a point
It doesn’t help that plays abused the living crud out of these things to such a degree they had little choice. Personally I don’t think it;s possible for full reflection to be balanced without becoming unreliable.

However I also agree with Axel on this one. There’s a general problem in the game of severe elitism, to the point I don’t play anymore until it’s fixed. But heres a better example. Look at the spider queen in the AC dungeon which has become infamous. Because players really stupidly stacked in a corner in this very counter-productive way, then kicked/insulted/pushed everyone to follow suite, Anet had to add in using her poison field move to even melee attackers, which only further forced people back into the “DPS over all” garbage.

That’s the problem, instead of making a lot of balanced ideas that show how reflection isn’t some god form, now we have one strategy being sued so heavily that Anet is -forced- to act. If we have tons of different styles of play running around this wouldn’t be big enough for Anet to be pushed into fixing.

But thats just my take.

Of all the days to come back and try to talk to people…

Anyway I’ll spare my usual diatribes as I have a much bigger post to make elsewhere.
My problem is two-fold and is why I use the word “elitist”

1) http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Assault_Class Look at this link. You don’t have to play because I’m going to tell you, Xcom has a real lack of in-game tactics and strategy. There’s a lot of basic stuff, but really, I have played this hardcore enough to see the real lack of options in single player. But look at this, there are three different builds on the wiki alone, plus I personally know of 2 more to boot.
Now compare that to guild Wars 2, a game with an incalculable number of options and lots of different things to do. Admittedly more in strategy than tactics but that’s not the point. what is the point is this. In a game of such amazing diversity and game balance…there is only one meta-build. No, really, I looked, I struggle to find even a second “accepted” build for say, my mesmer; it’s all just ONE strategy with ONE instruction manual for it. Thats not a hardcore society, thats a bunch of casual fools pretending to be “pro” while pushing away anyone else with the label “casual” as an insult, one I’ve been given a lot in and out of this forum.

2) Now, I have no issue with people whom want full berserker speedruns. Those aren’t inherently “evil” in that. However, the problem is that “experienced only”, isn’t used to mean experience, it’s used to mean you follow the single running instruction guide. My problem is that out of 5 groups in the LFG, there is maybe ONE that isn’t “lvl 80 only, zerk only, exp only.” It’s not the strategy that bugs me, its the abysmal over-saturation and the arrogant assumption that the instruction guide is best.

That is why I call those elitist fools, elitist fools. When you don’t want to put any effort at all into the game, and are instead throwing around the word efficiency, you have no right to be lecturing others.

edit: And no, the pug environment is poisenous, full of people whom skip and stack at ever interval even when the game whom made the party asked not to(first hand experience,) and where 4/5 groups are all “lvl 80, exp, zerk only.” Need I even mention the point I was told “F**** KILL YOURSELF” for going against the instruction guides? Sound healthy to you?

To be fair Jerus some bosses are like that with good design. Take Arc rise phantasia famous beach battle. I beat that boss my first try before, but now im struggling with it despite knowing the 8 turn sequence by memory. even sonny two has it’s famous Baron Braxis battle that is hard even if you know his AI. The point is overcoming the potential problems with a strategy of you’re own.

But yah, its difficult to tell when its bad design. For example I call the graverling burrows bad design because they spawn way too fast to kill the burrow before they -all- spawn, and are too strong to handle the swarms once they do. Making it only possible to win through being so single minded you can’t really adapt. Whats the point of giving us the burrows to kill if the enemies spawn faster than we can handle, and if there so strong that we basically can’t fight them, then how do we stop the swarm while dealing with the spawns?
I feel like im taking on the interceptors from starcraft if they all 100 attack each.

while I agree the traditional market of meeting your seller is certainly not efficient either, the way is stands is just as bad. We are left in a situation where buyers are afraid to demand price drops(at least in a number meaningful enough to care), and sellers cannot give any indication whether or not they are willing to go beyond the price point,

ex: Say you have an item that requires some set in-game price. When you sell that item, ignoring time and labor, you sell it close to the original cost of you making it. Even in TP, these kind of synthetic items can have this as well. So if a seller knows this, he knows he -can’t- go any lower, and thus almost no merchants post low prices, driving a market value more solidly.

However in lets say silver doubloons, where the price is more subjective, the buyer has to find a price point that can be considered fair, in this scenario we have sellers posting a huge variety of prices, some the cost of their pebbles, others the cost of their time, in all cases the seller can show where they are willing to draw the line based on those prices posted both ways.

However, as a buyer(and I did put myself in this position), you end up being unable to know when this happens, you can’t tell when a price is at its minimum, or if it can be lowered due to subjective value. the only way to know is to the the item in deep detail, I have no idea why say ancient bone is so rare, nor would I know why iron and steel items are so rare as well, and unless I knew that I could wait months before an order I forgot I made was filled because theres no way to gauge when prices can be dropped without the market giving some kind of indication.

this is the problem, without -some- kind of setting from both the seller AND the buyer, a market can never hope to be efficient, as neither can truely gauge the reaction of one-another in any kind of interaction. It’s important as a buyer I be able to know when a price is actually debatable -without- knowing the item, but as it stands, the seller has zero means of communicating. And because of that, buyers like me who lack the time to research it, are left in the dust.

However, keep in mind what Is aid about .hack//roots, without those players dropping prices significantly, that worlds trade would have been dead and gone because no one would bother showing up thinking prices would never change. If you’re a buyer and see a ridiculous price you know won’t change, would you come back to the post, or just spend a few days getting the item yourself. Without the indication that the market is willing to change, the buyers with the courage to change things, will always pick the later.

In fact, this is where the OP is out of his mind, Markets are always undercutting eachother, its necessary, ESPECIALLY in a faceless market, to have those varies prices set by the seller so that the people can tell when the price is where it -must- be, or whether it’s where it -can- be.

While that explains the cost of shield part, you are making a mistake by oversimplifying the market with nothing but supply and demand. I’m well aware the nature of silver doubloons as rare items comparatively combined with the demand as a legendary part skyrockets their price.

My issue is, how does one fix that. You can try and make excuses all you want for the prices, they’re all interesting, but the fact its happening and the seller has no ability to work with a buyer and fix it(nor do the buyers have reason or motive to believe sellers will do so when sellers cannot give an indication), so you end up with a lot of potential price problems that are just plan absurd with no justification other than pure luck caused it. If supply and demand are the SOLE drivers for profit to the point no one can have any power at all, then the market is quite frankly broken.

so again I ask, what can be done, how would the game fix this market and make it something anyone could get into an effect, and actually have fair dealings with buyers -and- sellers working together, instead of leaving sellers powerless, and buyers too afraid to make a meaningful move. to that, i have no answer.

tolunart.2095:

You’re free to express your opinion. The game is nearly two years old, and this is the first time I’ve heard of someone complaining because they make too much money.

It’s more the lack of control. Both a buyer and seller need to be able to effect the market as seen fit, markets must be fair and cannot take away from either side. My complaint is I can’t effect anything, I have to run by what is expected by buyers regardless of personal opinion in any direction.
and I find it hard to believe no one has brought that up before.

Rasimir.6239:

CalamityO.2890:

I sometimes pug and ask the same thing, “is this their first time”. And like you said, it’s normally not answered straight away.

I have to admit I often don’t know how to answer this kind of question. I’ve done a ton of dungeons with my friends / ex-guildies, finished every dungeon path at least twice, and have a solid understanding of most paths and their mechanics. But since the people I mostly have run with so far hardly ever skip or stack and range most bosses (successfully, with a colourful mix of builds and equipment), I have next to no knowledge of pug tactics. Am I “new” to the dungeon by your definition or not?

I would say you’re more a pro than people who claim the be “pro’s” publicly. you have excellent practice in critical thinking, adapting, and teamwork, as well as strategy and planning on an immediate time scale. That puts you far ahead of even most dungeon experienced players.

curt….wrong. So wrong.

1) there are -lots- of ways to play QB, heck, we have a debate between three different QB styles TO THIS DAY, and one is not better than the other, there just different. and you -still- didn’t address the saying. You are right in saying there are better ways then others of player some games, but GW2 thankfully avoids that trap, there is no single ‘best’ way to play a class for all time.

2) No you jerk, you -don’t- have the right to kick someone because they aren’t fitting your standard. You’re just spouting the same ideas of the previous guy while changing the words. You don’t claim a right to kick simply because they don’t follow your exact expectations.

3)As well, the -expected- should be that any potential style and goal for a character is viable, if you want pure unlamented unrestricted mathematical efficiency, -thats- it not the expected in a GAME. Short instant battles tend to be boring, we like putting in effort, its why games like I wanna Be the Guy exist.

tolunart.2095:

That’s called a great opportunity for speculators.

I understand where you’re coming from, it’s just a limitation of computers, they can only do the things they are programmed to do. Like RPers complaining because they can’t do something as simple as sit in a chair and drink a mug of ale… the program just wasn’t designed to do this.

Agreed, though this is more major a mi-step than the former.

Rasimir.6239:

VideoGamermike.5813:

Learn what your words mean before you use them

Abominations

Ok, I applaud, that made me laugh, 10/10 xD

I psot in this what I posted in another thread. This TC is complaining because someone is willing to take less profit then him. I.E someone isn’t selling at his expected value.

why take someone that greedy seriously again?

No a clearance sale does make sense if someone is quitting or has too much of an item and is just rich.
but the fact I lack any control as a seller, just make me not want to trade here. Either way this thread is a question, not an argument, see my post in another thread a few minutes ago more details.

Bellehagh, this line made me stop reading anything you said after.
“The notion fo selling ti for less than the current highest offer is unimaginable, thats what an efficient market does”

where do I even begin with that? claps hands together, ok, I’ll play you’re little game. Lets start this for the two very obvious problems and fallacies.
1) efficient markets are one that send out reasonable acts of trade with little effort on both sides of the trade. so both buyers and sellers can walk up, make a price, and walk out, with as little effort as possible. Markets are not entered around the merchant making money and no one else mattering. Right now, as a buyer, I feel cheated when I look at a great many of the items, prompting me to put effort into waiting for a reasonable price, or simply not trading, thats not an efficient market.
2) Eveyrone joins markets for their own reasons, sure, to some people passing up a deal that give you a passable profit is assanine. But guess what, that still doesnt work. Many people go into markets like this for Many reasons, some people for the sake of just making fair trades, some people for the sake of dumping their useless items, and some people for the sake of philanthropy, they all set a price that -they- choose. As such, being willing to sell something for below the expected value is not an act of stupidity.

Oh and, guess what, look up a few episodes in .hack//roots, where three merchants ended the insane overpricing of items pushed onto other players by simply using their free will and courage to call current prices unfair, and drew a hoard of new customers to the markets with fair and reasonable pricing, only possible when they went against the expectations of the buyers. Seem ‘stupid’ to you? Well they made a wondrous profit off all the new customers they got.

now that thats over lets get a bit more complex
3) See my example up there going nice and strong? Thats not possible in this game, even if the seller wants to go below market value to encourage trade and lower prices, perhaps in the hope that when he goes to buy similar items, those prices will also be much lower. so then both buyer and seller become completely powerless when items become all that expensive, as buyers cannot wait the days it would take to go all that noticeable under current values(nor have incentive to), and sells have no power to effect the market at all if they feel the pricing is not to their likeing. So now both sections of the economy feel powerless, and choose not to partake. Still freel the market is efficient and proper?

4) The fact is, any market system that makes both buyer and seller feel worthless even after spend days trying to find a solution, simply because of a choice of design, is not an efficient market. I am not the only person who feels this way, and I have talked to entire maps at once that literally abandoned the TP because of lack of real control, and insane prices with no real hope of fixing anything. Thus, the market system is pushing people away because of major flaws and lack of ability to adapt. Thats not efficient, its broken.

Ok…I -tried- to give the system some leeway and put myself in it, I tried, hard. I really did people. But…this is insane.

some of the things are way too expensive, just look at the cost of say, Iron shield parts, I caught one Iron shield part worth -more- than the darksteel equivalent. What kind of sense does that make?!

Heres my problem, the way it stands a lot of the items that peopel would even go tot he trading post for, are so insanely expensive that players with the kind of courage the trading post desperately needs, will just go and get the items themselves. sure Ancient bone isn’t exactly common, but for the time it would take to get 66 silver you could just go and find the item yourself. Then to many sellers(and I’m not alone in this, I asked people outside my circle), they abandon or never enter the system because of the lack of any kind of control. People like me and many others feel powerless to the powers that set market value and don’t get any decision about their own items sale.

Yes, some people don’t mind making as much money as possible, but some like me and -many- others, feel like cheats and jerks when we sell items for more than it’s even remotely worth by our standards. Whether the prices are and wrong is a non-issue, but the fact the seller has no decision, and the buyer’s dont have the courage(or intensive) to wait for much of a lower price, it just ends up pushing everyone out of the trading post.

I don’t claim to be an export but this is out of hand, and I don’t know what can be done to fix it. And don’t tell me that my first example, the price of silver dubloons, and the price of charged lodestones(both of which are abusing the fact legendaries require it) is fair. the fact is, many people like me are getting pushed out of the system due to any lack of control, and none of the buyuers have the courage to fix anything(or again, the insensitive).

so….any ideas? Because I’m up to finding a solution that makes it much friendlier to trade, both as buyer and seller.

Thank you penguin for that, that answers things a lot.
Forgive me if this seemed angry, I’ve long passed my issues with TP, but this one physically baffled me, it made absolutely no sense. So yah, needed clarity, thank you : D

thank you very much for the answer.

Oh and Tolrunt, I agree, the designers never thought people might want to sell lower than most people expect, but it’s still shocking to me no one thought that sellers shouldn’t do the same, ever heard of a sale? Sellers will drop the price all the time for tons of reasons.
Ex: Someone might push a price drop on silver dubloons to lure a lot of buyers into dropping in to at least check the price, luring in new potential sales for a while before turning them to a higher price.

anyone else we should edit this to be a bit mroe general. Like instead of “Berserker is OP” put “specific build is OP” or “Nerf Item X”. Then you can take the bingo anywhere!

GrimmR.3541:

I usually play ranger myself but i still tend to kick other rangers from my partys. But not immediately, i let them come in and when i see any passive signets, a bear or spider or bow/axe they will get instakicked. Then they have obviously no clue how to play their class in the proper way

This is what the TC is talking about. Your personal ideas and style define what is right/wrong, and you kick someone. Really think about this, your kicking someone because they don’t have what you personally dream the ‘proper’ signet. Seriously kicking someone because they aren’t following you’re exact orders or expectations is just not ok.

People, don’t learn from guys like this, remember the famous saying “insanity is expected to do something twice and get the same result.” There is no single “proper” way to play a game as complex as GW29at least generally). If you really want a proper way, this isn’t one of them.

Sorry if this seems like a ran but I feel this is such case in point I had to highlight it.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Oooh! Ooooh!

19. There is a stigma for efficiency in the gw2 forum.

I’d say there’s a stigma for time. Seems players want to finish ASAP with no regard to anything else. Speaking of which…

20. every gamer is impatient and wants things done in 10 minutes

TC, you get a win in my book for making me laugh, those pictures are great.

I also lvoe how Fafnir took this seriously and talked about the physics of stacking. Hes 100% right mind you but its still funny.

I would argue the worst part of any public group are the people of all kinds who refuse to talk, are the worst. Its pretty interesting that I get this on both sides of the level bar. sometimes I see newbies who don’t know how answer when asked “hey, what healing skill do you use”, and sometimes I see so called ‘pros’ with dungeon titles refuse to speak when asked ‘why are we in a corner again?’

I also get peeved at the people who have blind expectations, I.E the less than sane groups who believe they should be able to throw around any stats/skills/weapons randomly and play the same every time, as well as the people who played a dungeon 10 minutes ago, and want to do the exact same run step for step.

those are my peeves anyway

P.S. And jeesh pulse, “abominations”. Sure fall damage reducing is useless in virtually -every- game, but “abominations” is seriously too harsh. Learn what your words mean before you use them

1) My bets advice is to figure out what you want from your character first. Keep in mind what kind of strategy you want to lay, and what the goal of that strategy is. Are you like my Mesmer who resists attacks with a barrage of toughness, returning fire with hgh precision crits? Or are you more a man of damage soaking in mind who presents high bits of vitality to keep himself alive. If you choose to keep your current Berserker ideas, go for it, if you want to run something different, use that to. don’t be afraid to experiment despite the garbage I got. A big part of this level of gaming is the fun of working out all kinds of various strategies and how they all work just as well.

2) Once you have a goal, keep in mind how to reahc that goal, If resisting strong attacks is your game, then you need toughness to increase the strength of the hits you can take. If you want recovery from near death, you might want to pick up healing power, if you want sheer DPS, power is your call. Once you have your stat priorities, learn each weapon and which one works best for that output. I.E no Mesmer in his right mind would pass up using a staff for condition effects.

3) The most important part is communication. Always try to talk with your team and work things out. There were jokes here for example of people refusing to speak at all when asked questions or having strategy worked out. You want to talk. Sure, you wont always agree, I’ve told people I won’t slot specific skills, and that we will have to work something else out(some rare exceptions apply) I find the single greatest part of any dungeon is working together with all kinds of builds to figure out how to win.

4) Strategy, never go into a dungeon expected to play the exact same way every time, unless you are calling for an extremely specific strategy for your party, be willing to lose and work with eveyrone’s skill to problem solve whatever may be ahead. Take your time and enjoy learning as much as playing.

Forgive me if my advice is general but thats how me and all my friends(heck anyone I talk to) seem to agree on. good luck my friend!

Ok, I have to comment on this, it’s been almost a month since coming here last…..is this -still- going?
There are three pages of people trying to define exactly how to use staff guardians for a SINGLE build, as if the only thing that matters is -one- variable(which isn’t even defensible for any problem as complex as this game), or bashing anyone who uses staffs.
Sorry to comment but this is actually funny, its like watching a religious parody directed to a weapon style in a videogame.

I was arguing with someone about the nature of fair pricing over chat a little while ago and started quoting ridiculous prices(some morally, some attacking the logic behind it), and when I looked, I realized this little gem.

When I go to tell my items, I cannot go below market value by an estimate of 10%(my guess), so if I cut the price in 3, it won’t accept my price and sets it to the highest buyer regardless of my actual morality, choice, or ideas. Heck, it won’t even let me post my stuff at my own price.

Now, this is where I really hope I am wrong….can someone explain why these same items are selling for 3x the ‘market’ value? Yah, get this, a lot of items are selling upwards of 4x their lowest price, but I am not even allowed to go downward. For reasons of morals I can’t test that so I need an answer.

Can I sell items at as high a price as I desire, but not the other way around. why is it allowed to go 4x above the minimum posting, but not the other way around?! Am I missing something, can someone explain for example why mithril ore, which I can sell at minimum to 46 bronze, has over 14k available items worth 1.5 silver?!

This really will be my last post as I do want to answer a question given to me as it did legitimately aid in my understanding of this issue, and why I had such trouble comparing ideas for fighting(and why I didn’t see much math as useful).
Thats because….you can’t. You can’t compare one set of stats/gear to another, they are nothing alike in purpose or execution. The fact is, because of the different goals we can’t compare.

Take kyosuke, the character I brought up before. I actually brought him up incorrectly as he is more of a duelist style, using high armor to tank a lot of attacks, then picking the open point and ripping right in. In on fight, he gave up his mechs right arm, to stab a revolver through the opposing mechs head. He won, but it was only when he forced an using with his high armor, rather than going all-out. Translated to GW2, this style would focus on tanking hits until the point when the enemy is vulnerable(or at least finished with his special attacks), then striking at all hell with high precision damage. That is the goal.

This is where the difference comes in. If we compare that to a berserker build…it can’t be compared. One is centered around sheer killing power based on the derivative over time, while the other is based on both how much damage can be held(how much crunch power can be withheld,) as well as the amount of damage returned during that limited opening. As such, you can’t compare them because they very different goals, and thus, have different variables.

My issue with this berserker religion, is the idea that one is “better.” For some, sure, but for others, not. What’s important isn’t finding a single variable to any idea, but instead to identify what the goals of the build is, and how to bets meet that goal. So what would be judged as quality would be how effective a build is at the particular goal.

This means that beserker is not the best, only the best in getting as much damage as humanly possible, as fast as humanly possible. If the berserker build fits you, excellent! but I refuse to believe I am the only one who bases my strategy on the character, and wants to adapt and perfect each new style developed as a result of that character, each with their own goals and end results during a fight. I don’t want to play one build over and over, I want to enjoy the game over and over, each with a new strategy and technique. And I can’t be the only one who doesn’t just pick one style.

thank you to whoever asked that question, it was very insightful to answer and I feel helped me understand my goal in this game far better, thank you for that introspective look on myself.

Note before post: Thank you tree for -trying- to defend me, even though it’s clear, like everyone else, you understood nothing of what I’ve been saying. and dutch…thats what a forum is partly for, argument. I do think this ideology of one variable defining everything is stupid, and it being followed like a religion is nuts(there are people here and in game who treat the stacking/zerk like a religion.) What better place is there to discuss that than a forum? where you expecting me to just keep quiet unless the prominent culture liked it? “Just what the hell did you think you were reading from my work?”

this is my last post here, I tried coming back more mature but no one’s bothering to listen one bit. Anyway, this is the logic of the ‘supirior/inferior’ stat and gear builds I’ve been seeing, in particularly, the berserker(and stacking but i’ll talk about that in a moment).

A) The best way to judge quality is by means of the time and effort I have to put into my fighting. the less time I have to spend using it, the better something is, and as such, the more DPS I can do, the faster I can finish, and the better of it is.

B) Berserker is the best DPS

c) Beserker is obviously supirior.

If you agree with A, B, and C, you are correct, berserker rushing is the only way to go. However, I only agree with B and C(purely because B is pretty much undeniable and C is a consequence of A+B).

However, I think A is a load of garbage. The fact is….we want effort, we -want- to be challenged, we -want- to actually fight. A fight that ends in 10 seconds(in a game anyway) is hardly exciting or filled with tension, it has all the tension of a simulated battle in a PC risk game. That, is boring. And you know what, It’s ok to disagree, I have nothing wrong with people who want to run as fast as they can. I have issues with going to a public section and pushing this to such an extreme that it becomes expectations. Even when I make my own parties, or join a ‘having fun’ party, I have to fight someone to not skip, stack in a corner, or ramble about DPS. -THAT- is my issue, that is why I am getting fed up with this.
A poster here gave me an article, that while biased and filled with a fallacy or two, did make one thing positive, it shows that developing new ideas, no matter what they may be, is the point of this level of gaming. Just as there isn’t a build or strategy that is ‘cheap’(we’re talking generally here), there is no such thing as one that is ‘better’. A build that focuses on precision, toughness, and condition damage, is not any less quality because of a single variable.

Yes, I am well aware berserker can work, just as stacking can work, that doesn’t mean it’s not without flaws or any better because of it’s inherent existence, or a single variable. I find stacking not to be stupid, not useless. I am aware I can dodge and see my opponents attacks while in a corner, but the timing is either far more difficult, or impossible(condition fields), making the enemy much harder to dodge and prevent(especially given it’s harder to see as well). I don’t find it to be very wise or intelligent a strategy, and there are ways in which it has hurt the community by pushing DPS to such extremes it’s begun to be expected.

What I hope to god someone understand, is to stop judging quality on a single variable, and stop insulting posters because they call someone out on it. Just becaue you say think it’s better does not mean it is, and DPs in terms of time, ONE variable, is not a judge of quality. There is not Superior or inferior in this kind of environment(in general, there are specifics I can’t really argue nor care to), but entire weapon trees, gear/stat builds, and ideologies, don’t deserve the kind of very malicious attacks I got here.
I know at first I a fool, but I took my time and think about everything and posted with no shame in the last 2 days, I don’t deserve being called a mental case because I called people out on a superiority complex. And to those who were mature, I thank you for putting up with my earlier posts, and staying mature, even if we disagreed, I just hope at least one person bothered to truly read my words.

again with the really hurtful titles. You know calling someone’s entire fightingstyle “useless” kind of clashes with your attempts to be a gentlemen.
and curtoky…no one cares about what the staff is by direct comparison, focus on the staff alone. there are plenty of reasons to go staff, would you write a 20 minute freewrite in alphabetic order? You don’t get to call an entire weapon ‘useless’ no weapon is useless from what I have seen, its just more specialized. As much as we bash Anet, they got a lot of stuff right, balancing is one of them. It’s not perfect but then what is?)

1) @frifox. I have heard nothing but DPS in terms of gear and stat builds, no one(bar a few staff guardian guys, some of which were in pages I passed, sorry) has said anything otherwise. Dodging and predicting are all implicit for all kinds of builds, and there are some excellent ideas for how to run berserker. When I finally get one of those by luck I’ll look into them deeper, for now, all I care to do is point out the huge flaws that I keep seeing over and over and over and over again, purely because of blind expectation. I have nothing against the berseker building, I have issues with how its used, and the ideology that is being used to defend it.

2) @serial. I agree, this whole thing is my opinion, but the reverse holds true as well. Neither of us is right or wrong. My opinion is nor better, nor worse, than yours. and no, I do agree with you on the tree and troll. But, you don’t need berserker gear to do that, nor should be pressured into doing so, which is what a lot of people in the forums are doing.(not to mention the LFGs)

3) @serial(again). I have nothing wrong with people using berserker. I am have issues with people doing speedruns, I have issues when everyone and their brother is doing it and forcing people’s hand. And no, it is -not- the bets build, it has no defensive capabilities and is very easily killed if warmed in any way. It has -zero- defense, do not try to call that the ‘best’ purely because of one variable, DPS.(time is implicit and rather worthless here as aren’t discussing speedruns)

4) ok to be fair my stacking comment was a bit generalistic, but I have seen quite a few people here defend stacking purely for the same one-variable logic here. But yes, out of place and generalized, my fault.

5) @curtokey. I have no issues with people who want a very specific team member to fit their strategy, I have issues with people do it on expectation or impatience. And don’t try to tell me that “lvl 80 only berserker experts” isn’t being impatient.

and did you just say anything theory or philosophy is pointless? Do you know anything about argument? The only math can be done here is DPS and damage taken, which is hardly all that conclusive. When you’re dealing with strategy you tend to work a lot in the category of theory and idea. I’ve seen math -once- on this forum, don’t tell me therory is worthless.

6) @Curtoky. the only thing toxic is saying DPs( a SINGLE variable) makes an entire segment worthless. If you want to argue range is pointless….I don’t even to address the arrogance of that. Range attacks have no support?…what?! What game have you been playing, ‘support’ moved have nothing to with the range of basic attacks. There are certain supports only range can do, just as there are that only melee can do, neither is right ow wrong, my anger is directed at the arrogance that melee is the only way to go. My anger is at being called toxic and worthless for have some level of personal pride and not being bullied into specific builds.

edit: Missed page 6, dalanor, my last dungeon raid went much much better when I worked with my team and made a strategy based on our present skills, not when our so-called veteran was doing but barking orders based on his speedruns.
oh and, as the videos comment, thats because most people(like me) don’t have video editing software. I see a lot of “blind” runs on lots of games that get everyone laughing and working together. I’m sure all of these people would hate speedruns.

I can’t tell if people are running this joke into the near meme level, or acre playing it straight sometimes. I assume the former.

Why do all my games keep getting nerfed….this wouldn’t be a problem if people were allowed to ste their own prices and actually adapt the market more directly!

Ok to be more accurate I think this is an anti-botting measure like diminishing returns….which was and still is total BS. Why can’t I do the same dungeon over and over if I want? I may find that boring personally but that’s my choice to play that way, its just pure selfishness to punish people for a certain playstyle just to cover bots.
And what about those groups that can finish dungeons in record time, should they all just spend silvers at a time teleporting because of this? Dungeons are hard enough, stop punishing us Anet!

Arcade Fire.4895:

runeblade.7514:

If you don’t want to play Zerkers then don’t play with zerker only parties.

/thread

No, not thread. The argument now if the ethicacy of those parties. For very specific runs that need a single individual fair enough, but when you’re doing it purely because you just wanna run the same speedrun over and over as defined by someone else, thats not ok, and the fact that half the parties out there at are all ‘lvl 80 Zerks only’(three dungeons later, same situation), there is a problem.

frifox.5283:

If you finish the encounter without taking any damage while being a glass cannon then you have mastered the encounter. Be proud.

Strategy comes after you learn the encounter, not before. Strategy revolving around terribad playstyle and lack of knowledge is just that, terribad. This how those record speedruns are born, people have mastered every encounter in the dungeon and came up with a strategy/builds/partycomp that allows them to complete the path in shortest amount of time.

Do I have to bang my head on the wall AGAIN? You are not aiding your case, your defining skill and quality purely by speed and damage. That isn’t how that works. If you persoanlly think that, fine, but it doesnt make you any better or me any worse. Mastery and speed are not the same while playing a videogame. If you care about time, fine, but stop presenting time and DPS as the only means to judge quality, how many time need I say it?
But hey, if you can call sitting in a corner stacking your own steam so enemies can hit you with a single area attack as ‘mastery’ build on intelligent play, then by all means get yourself killed in games that make you think(arc rise fantasia.)

edit: No sins, thats not any correct way of thinking. Yes there will on occasion be those with a specific goal in mind, but there is no reasons(that I’ve seen or anyones bothered to defend) that isnt ‘it has lower DPS’. Thats not a viable argument on it’s own, and the majority saying something has no bearing on an argument or on facts. And the ‘your not the only player’ goes in reverse, why should I sit there and contend myself to other peoples ideals?
I’m not saying those parties don’t have a reason, but I can argue that doing it purely on the basis of ‘I think it’s best’ is just immature.

Dalanor.5387:

guanlongwucaii.3162:

a 12s howling king kill is terribly slow, even without corner stacking

just shows how little people know.

A few days ago when he made his own topic he obviously knew nothing about AC nor dungeons in general. Now he speaks like a dungeon guru.

12 seconds is terribly slow? The enemy not even getting to attack is terrible slow….do I even nee to address that? that is case in point of what I’m talking about. How can you fight something if it doesn’t have the chance to fight?! I just…how else can I prove it, a run that is so fats the enemy couldn’t even do anything is somehow terribly slow?! Seriously!
And dude, half the posters in that topic didn’t understand what they were even saying, I can -still- see a bunch of hypocrisy posts. I wasn’t the only one being foolish.

I don’t know, I never played necromancer.
I do see where everyone is coming from though, it does have synergy problems unless you build around it, which is a bit difficult to do.

No fox, thats -not- how you get better. You do not get better by telling people orders or by pushing DPS over all. you get better by identifying the strategy of the people around you and working to adapt a new strategy with each new team you get. Yes, you can dodge many of the enemies attacks and predict them, but even if you do that, you’re missing a key point.
If you finish encounters without taking any damage, or beating them so fast you’re not actual fighting, then you’re not really playing the game anymore. Sure I have nothingf against bersrker parties if thats the idea someone plays under, but its not better or worse based on time, and you don’t get better by pushing a single build that YOU’VE made over and over.
Take the thread of ‘handling’ staff users, even looking at it now I see a lot of people that, instead of identifying different ideas of how to sue the staff and advise those whom have them, a lot of the posters just hated the staff and told everyone how bad it is, demanding that people change any use of the staff guardian. What are you learning there? Pushing people to a -single- ideal is not learning, its not adapt, is stagnation.

edit: and btw sins you ask the kinds of comments I was talking about when I called out some people for pushing a single build as ‘better’ rather than actually adapting…well, case in point above. (no offense intended, thats just how im reading that post)

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Enaretos.8079:

Lucas.9157:

Point of the joke is to have lolz.

If you didn’t, I’m sorry. I promise I’ll come up with something that gives optimal laugh for everyone.

That’s too efficient, it’s not gonna appeal to them :/

Efficiency is a stigma.

efficiency misses the point, as I did when I was being a jerk before. The issue isn’t about the definition of efficiency(which is still an issue but it’s too complicated to work out here), but that efficiency is about as useful as power levels in DBZ. If you define your entire run 100% as nothing but DPS and time spend(do you really think playing the 12 second howler run is actually that fun past the planning and testing?), then your missing the point of a game, which challenges us with either ideals emotions and conflicts(like tales of the abyss/symponia, exnobalde chronicals, arc rise fantasia) or tests our own ability to think. This is why the personal stories here are so bad, they don’t understand that games and fantasy worlds aren’t an escape, there a way to better see our own world through the symbolism and people in said world. Games are no different, its not fun to follow someone elses orders to beat a boss in 12 seconds, its fun to find all the possible ways to beat that boss, regardless of efficiency.

But I digress, forgive my off topic post, I’m just trying to undo the more toxic environment I helped create from my own rash anger.

As a short responce to sins before I get back to some writing.
I agree that many people aren’t like that, my post is to the people who -are-. I did enjoy my dungeon run(s), and I have no issues with people playing berserker. However my issue is with the insults, the ‘this isn’t viable because it’s not melee berserker’ and the entire forum judging quality and saying some very mean things about builds(GS mesmer is ‘a waste of space’ said two different posters, and necromancer is ‘just selfish’ to even play)simply because they don’t match some perceived DPS.
I won’t get into those argument, but my words are not to the entire community that is quite good, but to those who don’t understand that and DO try to force berserker melee down everything throats.

Clloydio.3524:

One thing I suggest doing (as well as reporting the guy to ANet) is reporting him to his guild. If you don’t know it, try googling his username.

Most guild leaders will kick anyone doing this if you provide them with evidence that it’s happening.

He’s right, most people would never allow this kind of garbage. you might get away with it in private(though it would fail), but I’ve been in 4 guilds now and -every- guild I have been in has grumbled and griped about this problem. No one likes it, no one thinks its ok, and no one accepts it. If there doing it in guild, just report them to their guilds leader or other guild members.

If it makes you feel any better since yesterday I have forced myself to use “Zerker” to describe power gaming obsessed players who put DPS above all and forget timing or defense, and “berserker” for the actual gear and stat builds.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

The game isn’t antisocial, a part of its community is.

I kind of didn’t want to say it but…well, I certainly didn’t help things a few days ago but yah…theres a group that seems to want to farm as much gold as fast as possible over enjoying the game and making friends. I would happily add 2 weeks to my legendary farming if it got me good friends.

why is this -still- going.
And yaki…there’s an entire game to play. I really do suggest you try starting over with another character. I know you worked hard to get to lvl 80 and enjoyed it…so enjoy it again, we have an entire game to play, don’t just play -one- part of it.

and wow…actual MATH…it misses the point but, actual MATH. Congrates man, I like that kind of proof….and yet it kind of misses the point. Staff guardians arent about DPS, so having a lower DPS is expected.
I think it be a wiser idea to push this thread to a better question. Lets not ask how to push people to stop being staff guardians based on DPS, lets instead discuss ways to -use- said guardians to their fullest. What can staff guards do, and what can you do with those powers. Try to discuss something besides DPs….sadly I know nothing about the staff guardian nor have time to research…so i cant help there. Sorry.

So what if they don’t have a lot for the group? let them tank. People said it themselves, if any class can kick butt solo, well, let them, everyone else can hit the enemy from behind or use range while this powerful solo does his job.

and flissy, knight made a great post, and a good point, you simply laughing like a jerk is not an answer, it’s just you being an immature prick. To move away from flame…I can’t say how accurate it is, but I can’t imagine an entire class having no damage per second power, and I’ve seen necros do a -lot- of damage so I don’t think knight is off the rails here.

(need a double post)
5) Look, my last experience in game had me dueling the ghost eater mono.e.mono because the veteran kept giving out orders like a drill Sergent instead of explaining things. We lost on try 1, 2, 3, and 4, and won on 5, because at the start of four I told everyone what was going on myself(after I figured out every detail of the boss on my own) because the veteran wasn’t explaining anything and just demanding blind orders. Our teamwork improved massively when the orders stopped, and the discussion started. We has greatswords and bow rangers, and still won try 5 very easily, even when we had to light a trap while surviving the boss(me and another guy has a duelist build so high armor.) I think my quote for Gai comes up here.

" There are only two paths you can choose. You can sit quietly and be selected out of this world, or you can adapt and change!"
Gai Tsutsugami (Guilty Crown)

We weren’t able to adapt when we had this single pin-point plan that only one guy understood, we wouldn’t change with the situation, we couldn’t adapt. When eveyrone understood what was going on and we could finally use tactics and critical thinking, our team flourished. I even learned a new way to tank with my duelist.

Now to the final point. The fact is, we lost because this so called veteran kept making demands of eveyrone to do the same thing he had done over and over. Instead of working with the building and finding new an interesting ways to fight with everything he had, he kept pushing everyone to fight and run in the exact same path he had done everytime, getting angry when people(mostly me) questioned him or flat out refused to follow his orders. My team agreed that the dungeon was much more fun when we DIDN’t follow the stereotypes. You can’t force everyone to your style and insult anything that isn’t based on DPS, we have hundreds ofd builds, and like Gai Tsutsugami, I will adapt and change, not stay glued to a single set of melee berserker ideas that everyone and their brother can’t break away from.
If you want to call yourself professional, you have to learn to accept the strategies to -every- style, regardless of time, and in the realization that games are not about efficiency, they are about fun and self-learning. -you- have to be willing to adapt.

HOT kitten this is still going?

And serial, thanks for a nice itemized argument period! Haven’t done this in a while.

1) Lets begin with your comments to efficiency as this is an important subject. As in it needs to die right here and now. Games are not about efficiency, games aren’t about how fast you can beat something and how little effort you can do it with. The people who beta howling king in 12 seconds(or without getting touched on the reverse end), pride to you….but those who think that is a good idea to -force- people to do, need to learn what a game is. People in games -want- to struggle, we WANT to be challenged reasonably, that why people defend dungeon difficulty in the first place, we all -want- inefficiency. I still have my gripes at AC dungeon, but I can’t regret going there. The fact is we all play for different reasons and want to put our effort in for different things, you wanna berserker rush, fine, but don’t get angry or say such really hurtful and mean things just because people like me don’t want to be Pete from Darths and Droids. Not all of us judge our fun by how fast and hard we can win.

2) Yes, if a party asks for pure berserkers, they have the right to ban for it. but that in itself is foolish, sure a few people might have legit reasons, but when everyone their brother is demanding nothing but lvl 80 berserkers, you have a problem. The point of this thread as I saw it was not to bash berserker building, but to bash those who do it purely because they want speed and DPS, and get angry when people don’t follow their personal expectations and likes.

3) Yes, “non zerkers” have the right to play without being beserker builds. You’re way is superior only in DPS. Not everyone wants to do that. I am not the steel Beowulf, I will not run on a “all-in” style, some of my character might do it, I know a fictional character(kyosuke nambu) who has a made military style out of picking the best moment and berserker rushing the heck out of that moment. But the ones I have now, are a duelist(precisions/toughness/shatter), and a protector(vitality/healing), are not. Thats not some kind of ‘wrong’ thing because it doesn’t match up to the DPS alone. There are hundreds of great builds to make bosses look like chumps, and like the article I was linked said, it’s a joy to find them, to struggle and work to find those new ways of play. But insulting other because they want something different than charging berserker, is not an act of professionalism, its an act of malice and hatred.

The fact is, there is no justification for “you used ranged attacks and aren’t a berserker, your a waste a space”(this has been said both on and off the forums.) that’s cruel and toxic. You want toxic environment, point to those kinds of comments.

4) You are correct, skipping is not a part of this. But stack sure as heck is. Not the act of stacking but the reasons behind it. That being the berseker is a root cause of it. No one would stand in the corner of AC if they weren’t confident in killing mrs.spider quickly, without berserkers, that whole idea is nothing. But yah, skipping isnt related here.