Apply the same to thieves and eles but also use a teleport and you’re sure to get ’em most of the time.
You’re in the wrong thread. This thread is about elementalist vapor form.
It’s a proof of concept. Double tap + teleport does work on eles with you time it right. Eles by norm has to use 3 skills to achieve one effect, it’s perfectly reasonable enough that other classes have to try a little harder stomping them.
Both are based on player error… I wouldn’t consider either a counter because of that.
Why the kitten does eng have such an easily countered downed state when it’s the class that needs the most input to achieve a result? Eng should have the best downed state in the game if that was their criteria. Sounds like very odd criteria for balance btw…
@OP: If ANET is basically going to admit they messed up and then implement this ferocity change, they should at least give everyone the ability to change armor on a 1 time basis. […]
the sarcasm is strong with this one….
I don’t think a refund will be necessary though. If they some sort of refund for lesser reasons already then fine, otherwise I wouldn’t mind either.
Must be PvE only or not have ascended gear… in either of those cases it’s very much deserved. WvW you want to min/max more than just one stat/aspect. Ascended gear is far more painful to replace. In either case it’s needed.
how will zerker not be the maximum dps gear anymore? care to explain?
Where did I say that?
OP is about refunds for zerker gear. If you wear zerker pieces in wvw they will just be as useful for their purpose post patch as they are now(relatively to the other stat combos). Feel free to correct me though.
My post was saying that anything with crit damage should be allowed to change, not just zerk.
Zerk will still be the best damage gear, but even then other combinations of gear may well be better. It depends on how much def you get vs. how much offense and what you’re trying to do with your character. Not everyone goes full dps (we call many of those rallybots) or full tank in WvW. Many go with a more balanced set up so they can take hits and deal damage (just not as much as zerk). For some (like Stx) going full/heavy zerk isn’t as good as some other options. Having him redo all of his gear because of a fundamental change in the game stats well over a year into the game is redic.
Then there is also celestial… which sounds like the crit damage is getting wrecked, but other stats are getting increased. It’ll greatly depend on how much the other stats are being increased, but regardless for my ele she’ll probably be changing at least some of those peices (she doesn’t need more pre).
@OP: If ANET is basically going to admit they messed up and then implement this ferocity change, they should at least give everyone the ability to change armor on a 1 time basis. […]
the sarcasm is strong with this one….
I don’t think a refund will be necessary though. If they some sort of refund for lesser reasons already then fine, otherwise I wouldn’t mind either.
Must be PvE only or not have ascended gear… in either of those cases it’s very much deserved. WvW you want to min/max more than just one stat/aspect. Ascended gear is far more painful to replace. In either case it’s needed.
how will zerker not be the maximum dps gear anymore? care to explain?
@OP: If ANET is basically going to admit they messed up and then implement this ferocity change, they should at least give everyone the ability to change armor on a 1 time basis. […]
the sarcasm is strong with this one….
I don’t think a refund will be necessary though. If they some sort of refund for lesser reasons already then fine, otherwise I wouldn’t mind either.
Must be PvE only or not have ascended gear… in either of those cases it’s very much deserved. WvW you want to min/max more than just one stat/aspect. Ascended gear is far more painful to replace and requires a far greater investment. In either case it’s needed.
1. You get downed, med kits spawned, but you’re in downed state. An ally runs over to revive you, running through all the med kits. The med kits actually heal you in downed state, making your revival quicker.
Why I hate ppl that justify any freaking nerf? Oh way I hate them AS ENGINEER DOES NOT NEEDS NERFS BUT BUFFS…..
Not sure if this is directed at me or not, but I’m not for this change. I would be for a change in how immobilize stacks though… It seems as if they’ve started to treat the symptoms but not the cause.
Imo it’s because of root stacking. If that wasn’t around this wouldn’t be as big of an issue. As it stands right now you can crate->net shot->etc. That’s the real problem and not net turret. But they are treating the symptoms and not the cause : /
Crate inflicts a stun and net shot inflicts an immobilize, which tick concurrently. They don’t stack… so with that in mind, I have no clue why this nerf is happening now. Supply crate doesn’t immobilize people for 2 + 3 = 5 seconds, it immobilizes people for 2 seconds and one lucky target gets it for 3 total seconds.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Net_Shot was what I was referring to with stacking on more immobilize in addition to the turret. It’s the stun + root + other roots being able to stack on top of that which can be problematic imo. Sorry for any confusion caused by my wording.
The character is invisible, of course you can’t see it.
And it’s when they ARE visible when you can read the obvious tells.
You are trying to describe guessing. To read something you have to be able to observe it. Once they go stealth then you are moved out of the realm of being able to observe to the realm of guessing what they will do.
Unless you are fighting artificial intelligence, then its unlikely you will be able to apply the same guess over and over again with success.
That’s prediction, not guessing. If you use the information available to you (hp of both players, objectives, etc.) well you’ll have a higher likelihood of being right. Just guessing has no information taken into consideration. Other people say luck, but luck is 50/50. You should be able to do better than that. It’s not 100% though granted.
What prediction, guessing and luck have in common is the result of your choice is uncertain. So in that regard depending on how the individual are expressing those words, they are interchangeable.
Playing against a invisible character is like playing a game of chance, except stealth character determines the outcome of the roll.
How uncertain they are comes down to player knowledge and skill though. That’s a significant difference between the three. Some situations are pretty obvious. See a downed ally, see the thief stealth… take a guess where he’ll probably be. If the thief is using a dagger MH he’s probably not going to be trying to frontstab you etc. etc. It’s not 100%, but using the information you’ve been given about what’s going on and experience it shouldn’t just be random luck.
Thief in particular can also be stopped from stealthing in the first place (save blinding powder).
In larger groups (WvW) conditions are cleansed so frequently and often that they aren’t very viable at all.
The only condition I can think of that needs tweaking is immobilize which never should have stacked in the first place. At most the highest duration one applied should take priority.
Imo it’s because of root stacking. If that wasn’t around this wouldn’t be as big of an issue. As it stands right now you can crate→net shot→etc. That’s the real problem and not net turret. But they are treating the symptoms and not the cause : /
The character is invisible, of course you can’t see it.
And it’s when they ARE visible when you can read the obvious tells.
You are trying to describe guessing. To read something you have to be able to observe it. Once they go stealth then you are moved out of the realm of being able to observe to the realm of guessing what they will do.
Unless you are fighting artificial intelligence, then its unlikely you will be able to apply the same guess over and over again with success.
That’s prediction, not guessing. If you use the information available to you (hp of both players, objectives, etc.) well you’ll have a higher likelihood of being right. Just guessing has no information taken into consideration. Other people say luck, but luck is 50/50. You should be able to do better than that. It’s not 100% though granted.
I’ve been hit for 10k backstabs, and 11k Eviscerates with 2000 Toughness…
Its really not that rare… and its why I run Bunker Build, cause if i’m getting hit for that much with 2000 toughness, imagine if I had less
You might want to check your armor set. I run 2K toughness as a thief and a backstab only hits me for 4K.
I have 2,105 toughness/3440 armor and backstab hits me for 4,639 damage. I have 400 more armor than the OP, backstab’s damage was lowered by roughly 1.2k damage. That isn’t a big reduction considering: its a instant attack, that you can’t counter play and that you can’t see coming.
Backstab isn’t instant… you can pre-cast then use a teleport though (several other classes can do this as well).
Maybe but to tell the truth there is NO prediction in this game.
Expecially www…..
There is luck, you can t reliable predict a player you never met before and you didn t have time to study….
Also there is no risk/reward balance so predition that is already borderline luck in fighting games (and something that needs a really balanced risk/reward) doesn t apply at all in gw2.
Oh while we are here….why doesn t warrior gives bags after they go in vengeance?
So say I’m on my eng and I do a magnetic inversion on a downed player after seeing a thief c&d off of him that’s just luck that the thief got interrupted mid stomp and has nothing to do with the knowledge of what’s about to happen? I disagree. I don’t see what this has to do with the downed states being imbalanced though…
As often happens you can miss…and both your target will be elsewhere.
The point about prediction is:
You can be predictable and thus a bad player.
You should be unpredictable and totally remove skill in the equation.
Best part is infact thief, the only profession able to avoid MANY stomps….
I disagree with it being 50/50 (luck). You should be able to make an educated prediction based on what’s going on. Will it be 100% right, no. But if you use the information you’re given you should be able to tell most of the time. I don’t know how else to explain it in text. At this point it just seems as if you’re playing devil’s advocate.
Technically eng can avoid many stomps as well. It’s just done in a total rubbish way that’s far easier to counter. Similarly thief can avoid 2 stomps but it’s not 100% they’ll even live past the first attempt. Ele can avoid any number of initial stomp attempts (until vapor form has been used & ended). In either case of how you meant it…
Then, elementalist’s counter will be immobilize and aoe teleports like blink and lightning flash.
You stated it yourself. Only 1 certain class can counter a mesmer’s #2 while many classes have access to immobilize and aoe teleports to counter Vapor Form. Immobilize and blinks are currently the counter for vapor form.
Are you sure you should be aiming to nerf Elementalists’ Vapor Form which has many counters across all classes instead of mesmer’s #2 which you stated that can only be countered by Rangers?
I’m not saying that Mesmer #2 should be nerfed but I think you got your priorities wrong.
If you’re able to stomp an ele on the first attempt it’s a counter. Rooting the ele and teleporting will not do this. It is not a counter. Rooting will potentially stop the ele from moving in vapor form… but that’s not the same.
To get the teleport to work they would have to use vapor form at the very beginning of the stomp. Unless the ele is very inexperienced/bad this is not going to happen. That’s not a counter, that’s massive player error.
More classes than just ranger can counter mesmer’s downed state… I’ve done it in on my eng and thief as well. If you deny them a target, they can’t use the skill, and you’re free to stomp.
Maybe but to tell the truth there is NO prediction in this game.
Expecially www…..
There is luck, you can t reliable predict a player you never met before and you didn t have time to study….
Also there is no risk/reward balance so predition that is already borderline luck in fighting games (and something that needs a really balanced risk/reward) doesn t apply at all in gw2.
Oh while we are here….why doesn t warrior gives bags after they go in vengeance?
So say I’m on my eng and I do a magnetic inversion on a downed player after seeing a thief c&d off of him that’s just luck that the thief got interrupted mid stomp and has nothing to do with the knowledge of what’s about to happen? I disagree. I don’t see what this has to do with the downed states being imbalanced though…
Same reason eles don’t give WXP after they vapor… it’s a bug and I wish they would fix it.
Uhhh, I find it very useful away from a tower/keep portal. It will always give your team/server more time to get to you. It also works as a downed cond clear… another thing no other class can do.
Same as almost every single profession ..
Thief? Guardian?
What about rangers ? i mean its quite hard to kill a downed ranger….underwater its almost impossible in 2.
Give me the downed state of thieves and i ll be happy forever….
P.S. prediction is LUCK not skill.
On land, Guard/Ranger – blind/stability & stomp – no extra time given to the team. They aren’t bad downed states, but they aren’t 100% no matter what like my ele is. IMO they are middle of the pack.
Underwater ranger needs adjustment I agree, but that’s mostly because of the lack of stomp type options. They’ve said in the past they want to give players a stomp like thing under water in the past. I would really like to see them come through with that.
Prediction is part luck plus skill. You have a limited amount of information, how well you use that will determine how much luck and how much knowledge is put to use… just like with any prediction. Scientists make predictions based off of things they know all of the time. That’s not just luck. Just luck would be tossing a few random chemicals together and winding up with a cure for cancer. It’s not like the two things are mutually exclusive or anything…
low tiers dont run more glass
lol
take a vacation someday
In lower tiers I saw far more people running their PvE stuff in WvW. In general they also don’t know how to deal with a burst as well as players in higher tiers. There are of course exceptions. There are some high tier zerglings that don’t have a clue what to do other than PvD, and low tiered players that do.
The only other trait against conditions warriors have is restorative strength
(10 points in strength, removes weakness, immobilize, chilled and crippled when using a healing skill)
Pretty kitten worthless. dogged march , runes and lemongrass make it completely obsolete.
Other than that and cleansing ire, warriors have no other trait that deals with conditions, at all.
33% less cc time + regen is not worthless. It makes war even harder to cc on top of those other two (it’s also stronger than other class’s similar traits and is an adept vs their master). 65%→98% is very noticeable and worth while in such a cc heavy environment.
I have no problem that it’s remained for over a year — I don’t find it broken. I wish other professions had something as useful as mistform. It actually makes sense for an ele thematically.
Again, the only time you are thwarted is the limited scenario of mist-forming into a keep. It’s not a surprise, it’s not unexpected, and it’s not usable outside of that scenario. Everywhere else in WvW mist-form merely delays the stomp. That should not be a problem — especially considering ele is the lower armor, lowest HP profession in the game.
As I also mentioned in this topic, I find stealth-stomping (and other gimmicks like teleport stomping) to be a bigger problem. You mentioned Mez #2 requiring a target, making stealth-stops a 100% hard counter — yet this isn’t a concern?
I agree that some of the others need to be brought up.
You’re thwarted on your first stomp attempt on an ele every single time. That gives your allies critical time to get you back up.
Stealth stomps can be prevented by allies easily and will often cause the death of the stealther (you know where they are). There is good play/counter play in that. Unless they blind + stealth it can still be prevented on some classes. No a counter isn’t a concern… every single other class can be countered in downed state other than ele. I find that to be balanced at least in that way. Some are too easily countered in a number of different ways though (ex eng/necro/war you don’t even need to pop any cd’s or use any weapon skills to secure a stomp).
In the case of mes, any target at all will do. So either everyone you were fighting stealthed or you were in a 1v1 (and if you go down first in a 1v1 you’re as good as dead anyways). I see zero problems with that.
We are against discussing a downed skill that is useful only in front of a friendly keep?
What about binding roots? they are OP in some situations…
This game is full of situationally OP skills.
Are them gamebreaking? i don t think so.
Outside that ele downed skills are awful.
An ele with vapour form will die and enter a keep.
A guardian/warrior will trololol in the middle of the zerg and enter the keep anyway….
The only class you won t see entering a keep is the thief.
Uhhh, I find it very useful away from a tower/keep portal. It will always give your team/server more time to get to you. It also works as a downed cond clear… another thing no other class can do.
Yes, numbers maybe sounds nicely. but. As ele, if you are dueling with someone and both of you end in downed state at same time, there is no chance for you to win. I experienced this many times and I never won in downed state duel.
That’s so very rare that two players both go down at the exact same time… even so, would it really beat an eng? I’m not so sure about that. Healing while in mist/vapor + 2nd downed cond clear and grasping seems like it would win out (I have not tested this at all though obviously).
I’m sure you realize, as it’s been stated many times now, that mist form simply delays the stomp — just like most of the other #2 skills. Thief stealth and mesmer stealth/clone do exactly the same (you cannot prevent it, but it only delays the stomp).
The exception is mist-forming into a keep. I don’t have a problem with this either as it’s a simple fight reset. There are other situations where fights are reset (stealth anyone). If your WvW experience is ruined because a downed ele misted back into a keep, then you probably need to find something else to do.
Seriously, this is the highest priority problem you found to discuss in the forums?
EDIT: Also it’s been stated many times that you can CC the ele before the mist form (it’s not a surprise, you know it’s coming right?). It’s not brainless, but it’s possible with well timed play. So yeah, there’s a counter.
Thief – teleport to them, Mesmer – stealth (deception requires a target to be used). CC-ing them ele does not stop vapor form from stopping a first stomp attempt 100% of the time by any number of people. It does not counter vapor form.
I wish balancing downed states was a higher priority to the dev’s. Sorry you disagree. This is hardly exclusive to just vapor form for me though (I can’t speak for the OP). #2 is supposed to delay a stomp I agree, but how well it does that varies far too much from class to class. It varies from 100% no matter what down to single target projectile. Not cool this has remained for over a year.
No, no, no, no ,no. This is not the correct way to add counterplay to the thief. IT WILL BUTCHER DAGGER MAIN HAND.
You are supposed to be punished with a back stab if you allow the thief to get stealth. Preventing a thief from stealthing is what you need to counterplay not the back stab. Preventing a thief from stealthing prevents them: regen on stealth, initiative on stealth, blind on stealth, burst, survivability.
The problem with counterplaying entering stealth is (as always) the D/P weapon set. There is no counterplay to stopping the thief from entering stealth. You can’t block a leap finisher. On a D/D thief it is much easier to evade, blind, block the Cloak and Dagger to prevent them their offense AND defense.
You can’t fix one weaponset by murdering the other.
Knockbacks/cc’s stop the thief with D/P… I do it all the time on my eng with magnetic shield/inversion and the awesome capt america shield toss. Mes can do it with gs5. Dazes will work… want me to keep going?
Well, in that case I’d be very indirect about how to nerf it. Two things:
Prevent movement through doors while in vapour form.
Prevent rally from working on vapour form. So if you vapour, you commit to it. You cannot be stomped, but you also cannot benefit from a kill your teammates cause.
That puts in some risk/reward to it which is nice, but the counterplay still isn’t there. Still one of the better proposals I’ve heard none the less though ^^
I will reiterate: apply an immobilize immediately prior to vapor form and the ele will go nowhere.
Or perhaps stop killing them right next to portals.
You can certainly argue the merits of allowing a vapor form ele to pass through a portal, but there is a counter to vapor form like there is to every other downed #2.
Even in that case when you’re able to apply a 3s+root it still prevents the stomp 100% no matter what…
Because not all #2 are exclusively about preventing a stomp. If that were the sole reason they exist they’d simply do that. “Prevent a stomp”. Occam’s razor, there’s no reason to design it any further.
But some cause damage, some allow you to move, some stealth you, some pull targets away from other targets, some stun, etc. Those all do things. As in, they can do things apart from preventing a stomp.
I mean if we were to update all #2 to always prevent a stomp, then the ones which have side effects of indirect impact would automatically be overpowered. So would we remove those? Like Engineers or Rangers preventing stomps on someone else, something Mesmers cannot do?
And so on. I really feel that the focus on preventing a stomp is wrong, rather I’d improve the power of the #2 moves so each feels really strong at what it does. The Engineer #2 for example I’d replace with a harpoon gun firing the line, 1500 range, cannot be blocked or prevented. The ability to pull a very distant enemy close to my group (which pretty much guarantees the rally) seems quite interesting.
I’m not sure if you’re trying to say that the 200 damage + pull on eng makes up for the single target cc rubbish downed state? If so I disagree. What about necro’s fear? 2s CC no damage, single target, still easily countered in a myriad of ways. Every single #2 is meant to stop a stomp. That’s its primary purpose. The way they do it is very different and meant to be different and make sense within that class (basically RP type reasons), but the quality of the effect varies far too much.
Even if they were to make eng’s pull stronger, as long as it’s still single target it’s very easy to counter… it could have more potential… but situationaly. Compared to ele which is highly useful regardless of the situation. I (obviously) think that eng/necro need downed state love. The only sort of saving grace for the other single target one is that war can get up and become potentially the highest (by far) downed dps… but it’s not very often they get to use it because of the rubbish #2 : /
As others have said in practice an absolute 100% stomp prevent is still a bit strong considering every single other one has some possible way to counter it. That yields better skilled game play imo.
It’s a problem when one class gets a 100% no stomp while others get a single target projectile to stop that crucial first stomp attempt.
This “imbalance” affects a tiny detail of the class. Also keep in mind that in PvE, about everything is better than vapour form.
But really thing is: why does it need to be balanced. Escaping into the tower I could see as an issue because as you say it gets problematic when a large amount of elementalists get organized. But beyond that, why would I want to reduce class uniqueness?
It’s WvW! Both sides have access to this. In the big picture, in equal numbers. So long as whatever each class uniquely brings to the table is very strong in itself, each class has things they’re known for. And that’s what makes a class a class, strengths and weaknesses.
If you couldn’t tell, I don’t subscribe to the idea that RPGs ought to be balanced, especially for any smaller scale PvP. Goes against the very underlying premise of classes as a form of specialization, IMO.
I want things to be overpowered. Ideally, everything should be overpowered in it’s own little niche. I’d rather have solid class design and “feel” than balanced 1v1, especially as that can’t be achieved anyhow. Seems a bit futile to chase it.
Ofc, fleeing into the tower can be problematic, granted. Prevent the use of doors maybe. So if I can flee into or behind a friendly zerg I’m good, but I can’t easily flee back into a tower.
PvE/WvW/sPvP should be balanced separately. 3 very different environments. You don’t get stomped in PvE for example (lol). There have been many nerfs that have harmed classes in PvE that did not need a nerf because of PvP reasons. That’s not good.
That’s still not mutually exclusive to have classes be very strong in their own way, but overall still balanced.
I’ve played games where one class could juggle another class from 100%-0% while other classes could freeze them in place, knock them down and keep them down, another class could take the hits that these other classes would use to 100-0 them and knock them around instead… and it was pretty well balanced overall.
I don’t want every single class to have the exact same downed state. Them being overall balanced when down though… yes. I can’t see a reason why one class can avoid a stomp 100% while another is so very easily countered because it’s a single target projectile. I don’t see the overall balance in that.
Rather than nerfing the good downstate – why not buff the rubbish ones?
The only thing strong about Ele downstate is the fact they can Vapor through doors, which i see no problem with, its happened to me loads of times. Considering they are the only class with Low Health and Low Armor they SHOULD have something and i think Vapor is that something.
I agree the lower ones should be brought up, but that’s not to say that some of the higher ones still shouldn’t be brought down as well. It would very much depend on how they did it.
Nah, ele needs other things to be able to deal with having low hp/armor. Vapor form is not the answer to that. It shouldn’t matter that it has the lowest hp/armor since it should be balanced around that when the ele isn’t downed. No extras when downed should be needed. If vapor form is what’s keeping them from fixing my ele when she’s not downed… then holy kitten please change it right now.
There’s another problem I have with the “Vapour form whining”:
What’s the actual reason it needs to change?
That is to say, yes, Elementalists can ~freely harass you around a keep/tower gate.
So?
Engineers can build a Mortar and Necromancers can turn into a poison mist. You don’t exactly see much complaints about those unique skills, do you? But Vapour Form needs to change?
What’s wrong with Elementalists being “the best” at defensive harassment? I mean, in what way is it a specialization worth killing off?
The So? =‘s it does not yield skilled gameplay. It’s poorly designed that an ele can vapor form into a tower/keep. What I’ve done in the past is get a few eles together, bum rush rams, then vapor form back into the keep (since the portal is right next to the gate) and repeat until the rams are down.
You did not seriously just try say imply positive about eng’s mortar or compare an elite skill to vapor form did you? There are several racials better than mortar. That’s why no one complains about it. Also… apples and oranges much?
It’s a problem when one class gets a 100% no stomp while others get a single target projectile to stop that crucial first stomp attempt. If the other classes were on par with mes/thief… ok fine. That’s not the case though. That’s the reason that something needs to change. Either the bad ones need to be brought up or the top ones need to be brought down.
As far as the OP… idk you would need to ask him his reasons.
They can do this in exchange for giving eles 5k more base health.
Tbh… I don’t think that would fix ele’s problems…
Neither do I. Arcana and attunements are just so badly done, and most of the traits suck. There is also the 40 year long cooldowns, even for the utility skills (which should be equal to other classes, but are not).
I would probably agree with you on a lot of that. I don’t agree that vapor form and the downed states in general are balanced though : /
They can do this in exchange for giving eles 5k more base health.
Tbh… I don’t think that would fix ele’s problems… personally I would rather them do thinks like fix RTL to not go on 40s cd because of a block etc…
I’m not some ele hater, don’t get me wrong… I’m not crying nerf ele. I have an ele and I play her every day, and ele does need some love. But the downed states overall just need balancing.
Good for sPvP, meh in WvW, meh for non-condition or non-zerker builds. Only really useful things are skill 5 and skill F1 (only with 20 pts in def line).
rifle
Lol.
I wouldn’t call longbow meh in WvW. Pin down alone…
Rifle isn’t bad in ZvZ, 1 shotting players while being hidden in a group works. It’s rubbish in PvE and sPvP though…
I agree the non-downed state could use some love. That doesn’t stop ele from having the strongest downed state and doesn’t mean that the downed state balance overall isn’t totally messed up. It’s not like these things are mutually exclusive.
Is it really that strong?
Sure, #2 is fun, especially in WvW.
But #1 is really really weak compared to other classes, and #3 is quite the letdown unless you can use it to prevent someone else getting stomped.
Balances out.
Yes it really is. The #2 skill is the most important (in a pvp enviornment). It’s your chance to save yourself. If that fails it’s gg right there. Take a look at eng (again) for example. I would put the auto on par with ele ‘s 1. The #3 isn’t that bad… but how often do you get to use it? Not very often because the #2 is so easily countered (same goes for war). Will necro’s #1 save him from being stomped? No. His #2 is almost as bad as eng/war and his #3 is rubbish as well. Does guards #1 save him? No… his #2 might but there are still a number of counters for it. Now look at ele again…
I think more ele nerfs, especially if its not to the instant-burst that can be achieved, should be a long-time coming.
However, there was one ele in the vVv tourney (in the finals no less), so its probably best to nerf them quickly so that nobody gets any ideas…
I would be fine if the lower ones were brought up as well… but they are currently very imbalanced. That’s not to say there aren’t other balance issues that need to be addressed as well, but this one in particular has been around for quite some time and I find it sad they haven’t many any attempts to balance the downed states other than the 2/3 swap on ele.
Why not just change the ability bar for elementalists so that when they see an opponent they instantly change into a lootbag which the the opponent can pick up.
Would that make it easier for you?
Of all the classes to complain about you’re picking an ele? Next you’ll be complaining about how op ranger pets are.
I agree the non-downed state could use some love. That doesn’t stop ele from having the strongest downed state and doesn’t mean that the downed state balance overall isn’t totally messed up. It’s not like these things are mutually exclusive.
To obtain something, something of equal value must be lost. It’s clear that Warriors are getting more than what they give. Let’s not talk about how “easy” it is to dodge “easily telegraphed moves” and put in L2P issues as an excuse.
10 points Defense Dogged March – 3 sec regen, 33% reduction to soft CCs
15 points Defense Adrenal Health – Level 3 Adrenaline is 360 HP healed
15 points Fast Hands – 5 second weapon swap cool down
So the basic needs of a warrior is X/X/15/X/15 which leaves them 40 points to play with.
These traits don’t deserve to be in Adept traits nor to be Minor traits because they’re too strong. Make warriors actually trait for these. They have to choose what they get, not get all these strong traits as “freebies” because they’re Minor traits.
Your 3 points:
Dogged march: warrior is a melee, means he needs the added movement impairment resistance so he isn’t kited continuously. The real offender is lemongrass + melandru that all other classes can use anyway, dont blame the warrior for that.
Adrenal health. The healing is per 3 seconds and assuming you have full adrenaline to get the effect. Current Meta is spending your adrenaline as soon as you have it so you trigger cleansing ire and set up a burst, not to sit on it. This trait is mostly useless in battle.
fast hands. not only this ability shouldnt even require 15 points, general consensus is it should have been integrated in the warrior class from the beginning, as a class feature.
At the very least it should only require 5 points and not 15.
So… we’re ignoring longbow/rifle and trying to trivialize more hps Ok…
This is hardly different than a thief teleporting in most scenarios. You wait until the last possible moment and move and A stomp is wasted. There’s prescedent from that aspect.
Not sure why you don’t like it.
Because if you’re fast enough you can still teleport to where the thief went (steal to them works).
This is a small slice of a much larger issue though. There are several tiers of downedstates. Ele > Thief/mes > Guard/ranger > War/Necro/Eng. They go from 100% can not be stomped on the first attempt regardless of numbers down to… can be countered with blind, block, stability, two stompers, person/pet/tiny rock in the way… it’s clearly far from balanced.
When I play thief I wait until people can’t react quickly enough to teleport, even if you try to anticipate it you can’t get the stomp off, maybe it’s server lag.
To stomp an ele on the first go you have to be a stealth class so they never see it coming.
You can’t measure the downstate on defense alone. The ele has one of the weakest offensive downstates. Measure the down state in it’s entirity.
Or they could have already used steal or not be fast enough. It could be several things but there is a solid counter to it.
Being a stealth class won’t help unless they never see you at all ever and don’t feel the need to use mist form. I wouldn’t call that a solid counter.
It is not a matter of “L2P”.
It is not whining for nerfs for thief.
Blocking does not tell you where they are, only that they could be in any position around you at that moment.
This change is for [all] and will affect any class that happens to be in stealth.
Blocking should cause revealed, because;
Being blocked counts as a hit, this should proc revealed and remove stealth, however, as it currently is, it doesn’t.
Why should any class spam and an endless amount of hitting attacks while in stealth with zero ill effects, it renders the point of a block very close to pointless against an opponent with stealth.
/Thank you-Come again.
Lets look at it from a gameplay pov.
You would have one opportunity to block a c&d (1/2s cast time with obvious animation) then up to 3s to block after as well. In the first case you’ve caused the thief to lose a large chunk ini, denied stealth, and the subsequent backstab. In the second case you’ve missed the first chance, denied the backstab damage, and revealed the thief. That’s too win-win for the blocker.
It’s not endless… the stealth will wear off and backstab has an animation time .
So… you had a chance to prevent the thief from stealthing and failed to stop him (only one you can’t prevent is the blinding powder utility). Now after risking 5/9 ini or popping a utility, some of you feel they should be easily countered by a block/blind/dodge? That would kill the thief class. No thief would ever be able to kill a non-afk guardian ever. Even just reveal on block alone would cause that. That’s not at all a balanced request.
If you can’t kill guardians without stealth then you probably need to try something else, seriously. Don’t mean to insult, but many of us thieves can kill guardians without stealth.
Sup San! I see you’re taking time away from the thief part of the forums. Sorry I wasn’t more explicit with what I meant. I don’t mean to insult but I thought it was very obvious. No thief that uses stealth would be able to. Thieves have a lot tied to stealth. A change like this would wreck that part of the class and require a full redesign of several traits/traitlines. Otherwise just toss the dagger oh out the window and the d/p set as well.
I would love to see your skilled thief gameplay btw. Please post it up in the thief section or here.
Hope that clears things up for you and I can’t wait to see it
It was allowed for quite a while on the PVT stat gear… and I don’t remember seeing any updates where that was changes… so it’s either my bad not noticing the note, a bug, or a ninja nerf.
So… you had a chance to prevent the thief from stealthing and failed to stop him (only one you can’t prevent is the blinding powder utility). Now after risking 5/9 ini or popping a utility, some of you feel they should be easily countered by a block/blind/dodge? That would kill the thief class. No thief would ever be able to kill a non-afk guardian ever. Even just reveal on block alone would cause that. That’s not at all a balanced request.
This is hardly different than a thief teleporting in most scenarios. You wait until the last possible moment and move and A stomp is wasted. There’s prescedent from that aspect.
Not sure why you don’t like it.
Because if you’re fast enough you can still teleport to where the thief went (steal to them works).
This is a small slice of a much larger issue though. There are several tiers of downedstates. Ele > Thief/mes > Guard/ranger > War/Necro/Eng. They go from 100% can not be stomped on the first attempt regardless of numbers down to… can be countered with blind, block, stability, two stompers, person/pet/tiny rock in the way… it’s clearly far from balanced.
The best tier food gives +100 and +70 in its major and minor stats. Based off of how traitlines work we can see they chose to value +10 stats as equal to +1% condition duration.. so why exactly they felt the need to say on food “Nope, we wont follow that pattern, we’ll make the foods x4 stronger.. That surely wont change anything!” remains a mystery.
I dont see the need for a cap though if the food is lowered.. because stacking it to insane levels would not be nearly as easy as it is now.
THIS!
The condition duration increase/decrease is literally 4 times stronger than it should be…. oh my kitten god.
No it’s not 4 times stronger… because of the way damage conditions work (tick only at the second or you get nothing) among other things which have already been explained at length in this thread.
People love overstating things to try to get their way : /
So your trying to say this food is not completely broken?
You must be a warrior…
Yes I am saying +40% isn’t broken.
My sig shows all the classes I play regularly. Tried war, but it bored the living kitten out of me. Several of them are relatively weak against conditions though…
The condition scaling per tick is a separate issue. Granted; it is exacerbated by the 40% foods, which are actually barring any further rework on the condition system from being done due to how badly those foods paper over the flaws of the system. Either the general duration foods need the hammer or the specific duration duration foods need an immense boost; and the second option just makes the current situation worse.
You may well see this very soon though, but not with foods. They said they would be adding the +20%‘s to the 4/6 slots of some rune sets so that people aren’t using 3 different sets. That means a possible +60% duration for some stuff… in the livestream they only specifically mention boons, but I would wager that it’ll be for condition duration sets as well.
I agree there are some flaws in the current system, but str8 up nerfing the +40% food without any adjustments in the system is certainly not the way to go.
Yes replacing an item is probably the best thing you can do, but greens are not the best thing to use them with. Best use I’ve found for them was to use one with three exotic dungeon weapon offhands. Those cost the least amount of tokens and the stone will give you a random type after anyways, so just use the cheapest weapons. Use the ones from SE level & below since above that you can turn the tokens into 70+ rares and just salvage for ectos.
At worst you’ve taken tokens from a dung and turned them into a random exotic that you can sell. At best you just got yourself a precursor (this method is actually how I got the chosen shield precursor). In no case will you lose any gold (unlike using greens/rares where you’re out that potential value).
The best tier food gives +100 and +70 in its major and minor stats. Based off of how traitlines work we can see they chose to value +10 stats as equal to +1% condition duration.. so why exactly they felt the need to say on food “Nope, we wont follow that pattern, we’ll make the foods x4 stronger.. That surely wont change anything!” remains a mystery.
I dont see the need for a cap though if the food is lowered.. because stacking it to insane levels would not be nearly as easy as it is now.
THIS!
The condition duration increase/decrease is literally 4 times stronger than it should be…. oh my kitten god.
No it’s not 4 times stronger… because of the way damage conditions work (tick only at the second or you get nothing) among other things which have already been explained at length in this thread.
People love overstating things to try to get their way : /
Downed healthpools are much larger, percentage wise theyre harder to dps down and the 17% pulse heals will heal significant amounts.
Really, its just an argument that Warbanner rezzes people up faster if both started the cast at the same time. But elixir R has other advantages.
As for the Warbanner rezzing Keep Lords, thats another matter entirely. Its stupid, shouldnt exist and also wasnt what this topic was about.
“significant amounts” left intentionally vague I take it?
It gives you a far larger window and far more that you can do to stop it Vs. warbanner (esp if it’s being tossed from the middle of a crowd). Vs. a warbanner they would need to be low AND poisoned to stop the res. R you can outdo the 17% (or 10% if poisoned) healing without many problems in WvW (especially considering the size of most zergs). Heck you can even knock some one out of it midway through a toss R attempt (again far harder to do if the banner caster is in the middle of many others).
R is also different in that you can cast it before you go down and try to res yourself.
Very different mechanics means it really shouldn’t be lumped together with the rest (just like illusion of life).
Glad we agree that banner ressing dead npc’s is rubbish ^^ It is a difference between the two skills and shouldn’t be ignored if you’re trying to equate them in WvW though.
To be fair, getting downed allies up isnt exclusive to Warriors. Necro’s, Engineers, Elementalist and Rangers have abilities that !!!CAN!!! do just that aswell.
Da heck you talkin’ about eng can do it just as well…
I did, I made note of R vs. Banner because it’s not an equivalent (what your post is and some others in here are implying). That’s like saying illusion of life is an equiv. of warbanner as well which is also is not even close. Again, please learn the classes and difference between the abilities before posting about them. Thanks.
Illusion of Life is an entire seperate ballpark as it doesnt actually revive anyone, its a temporary back in action where the rally-on-kill rule of being downed applies.
Banner has the advantage of being instant-rally, elixir R restores health tickwise. But Warbanner has a 2sec cast time thats interuptable and 2sec of not doing anything else, elixir R is 1/4sec cast and is virtually not interuptable, it also comes with half the cooldown and double the range but a smaller radius.
But with 17% healing per second, for 10seconds, on someone who gets downed at 50% health, those people are getting up. And since it pulses every second, it can rally more then 5 players as it can pick up new targets if it isnt at the 5 player cap.
Both have their distinct mechanical differences, but they fullfill the same task of getting downed allies up.
People complain about Warbanners because its a more common ability. Warriors are bloody everywhere in WvW, and we all know why that is… And its an easier pick for Warriors.
Engineer sacrifices more when he takes Elixir R then a Warrior who takes Warbanner, and the latter is also great personal utility. Whereas the Drink elixir R is woefully underwhelming.
But if Engineers were the popular profession, and every other player in WvW was one. And Elixir R was a great utility skill to have, people would be complaining about that and not Warbanner.
17% per pulse also means that it takes longer than warbanner to revive some one and you have more of an opportunity to just beat on their downed state to counteract that vs instant revive (you need to have them low and poisoned to prevent that rally).
If you happen to have more than 5 people downed in that small radius in WvW… the chances are pretty kitten high that they’ll still be getting attacked and most (if not all) of them won’t make it back up.
On NPC’s it doesn’t heal for the full 17%… it’ll get one from dead->about half hp… Vs banner which gets npc’s up. A lot of the warbanner complaints are because of how they revive keep lords.
I was just pointing out that the equivalencies were wrong and misleading… which they are.
Deception will stop any number of stomps with 100% certainty as long as you have something to target. The only stronger downed skill 2 is Elementalist vapor form. It does not need a rework or change.
Agreed. There are other downed states in dire need of revamps (ex. necro/eng), mesmer is not one of them.
You can also speculate. If you keep up on the info coming from a-net they’ll often tell you when something new will be coming or something will be changing. Based on that you can buy those items or the items that’ll be required to make them before people need them at a lower price.
Time limited items almost always go up in price as well. Things like time limited skins/dyes/recipies/minis etc.
There is more inherent risk with these two, but also more potential profit.
