Guild Wars 2

“… the opposite of guardian.”

That is what I have always thought, too. Guardian is great goup AoE support and very tanky. Necromancer is tanky, too, but its support is in crowd control conditions rather than party boons.

Necromancers give great party AoE support… when facing multiple mobs. When facing a single boss, the return is much less outside of a glass cannon. Warriors can stack bleeds very quickly and Necro’s have difficulty with single-target condi-damage as other professions can do better. The lack of evasion skills is tough on the Necro. Only minions take aggro and damage before the Necro. Otherwise, dodge and DS are the only real damage-mitigation skills and niether are automatically active so the player must keep an eye on the opponent and hope for enough stamina or completed CD/LF for DS.

Necromancers are generalists. They have lots of mediocre AoE, a huge array of weapon ranges that reward risk with more damage, are both tanky and vulnerable, and have lots of pets to kill over and over, again.

Necromancers are confusing. You have to learn from experience which build to run, where. Arguably all of the utilities are useful even if some are less popular due to the uniqueness of their utility.

Necromancers are under-powered. Sure, a glass cannon build is powerful but the profession is horrible at escaping focussed fire. When things go South, just know you won’t be getting out alive and spare yourself the disappointment of misplaced hope.

Necromancers are farmers. Go where death lurks and spawn a pet for bait. Be a tank and wade into a cluster of mobs to mine that node before dropping marks and wells all over yourself, then DS4. Tag everything in an undead invasion and collect the spoils after other professions finish off the mobs.

Necromancers are prime targets. They can easily turn a fight but are also easy to focus down. lots of kills are made of Necromancers, partly because other professions cannot tolerate leaving a necro free to torpedo their battle plan.

If you want to run wells, first decide on play style. That is, whether you want to get in close and deal a lot of damage, or prefer to hang a bit back and nuke the line like an arrow cart.

In either case, if you run wells, take Ritual Mastery for the CD reduction. If you want to bomb the fighting front from a little behind the front, then you will also want Focused Rituals and might as well put 20 into Death Magic for Staff Mastery and Greater Marks. If you prefer max damage and standing in your wells, then put the remaining points into a power/crit build.

The main competition for utility slots is from Corruption skills. The curse tree’s Master of Corruption CD reduction will tempt a well build toward conditions. The Necromancer profession has a lot of build variation, though PvP rewards power/crit builds more than condi, minion, or tank. WvW leans heavily toward power builds but hybrid and condi-bombers have a place, too. Condi-bombers are great for sieges.

Wells work for both kinds of builds but require you sacrifice other great utilities – just as it should be. Try everything! Despite what you may read on the forum, most of the Necromancer’s skills work pretty well but you need to design your Necro around the skills for best results and different builds are better or worse than others depending on the situation. There is no Everything build and no Easy Button. The challenge is part of Necromancer’s fun.

Aphix.9846:

Try and not build into a bunker necro, you become useless …

This is what I think Arenanet needs to look at real hard instead of buffing dps. Make the bunker-Necromancer useful.

I have said this a number of times but what I think Necromancer needs is not higher dps but higher heal scaling. Necromancers need a stat bonus that grows according to incoming damage. So do Warriors. Spectral skills could help but Protection is a flat damage reduction with a terminally long cool-down – not at all what the Necro needs.

Some kind of reward should be due to Necromancers running with significant toughness and vitality. Putting points into either line is, for me, taking a nerf for a specific skill set rather than a choice of defensive play. Consider these two points: High toughness does not prevent being kicked around like a football. High vitality/heal does not do much for anyone but the necromancer.

To correct some of this, one idea is for a trait in Death Magic to proc stability on knock-downs. One for Blood Magic is a trait giving % CD reduction on healing skills for spike damage over half the Necro’s health and to proc a life-steal from all in range if health drops below 20%.

Even if I have 0 points in Death Magic, I still often run with staff and here is why: I can drop 4 marks on a target pretty fast, then switch to a traited weapon and not suffer long CD on its skills. This works great in open world PvE.

In PvE dungeons, I get by with staff mastery and use traited Epidemic. It is WvW and SPvP where Greater Marks really shines but then builds tend to diverge. I would not mind if both staff traits in Death Magic were advanced up the tree to prevent an OP build but wish I only needed to use one slot. Maybe if both GM and SM were master level minor traits in DM and some other line, or if Staff Mastery were combined with the 10% power boost in Spite while GM was moved to master level.

What I would personally like to see is a shorter cool-down on the transformation but not on the boons given. That would further encourage quick fingers to use DS to ablate incoming damage. Life Force generation could stay the same.

Don’t forget that placing points into non-damaging trait lines can reduce AoE dps. I see less a problem with adjusting the Death Magic line to combine the staff buffs or shift one to a minor trait if it forces the player to trim damage output.

I have long believed that the DM tree has too many attractive trait skills packed into it. The Blood Magic tree could be more attractive if healing scaled a bit better. The main problem that still remains for Necromancer is that bunkerish builds are not attractive enough. Berserker traits are too difficult to pass up because the reward for toughness and vitality traits just misses the mark. A tank build for Necromancer could be more convincing in sustain than it currently is.

Flow, I will choose Staff Mastery over Greater Marks and, if my build does not have more than 10 points in Death Magic, then Staff Mastery wins and I just need to be more accurate with my marks. Shortened CD is nice for Putrid Mark along with the other staff skills. I really used Staff Mastery a lot when Reaper’s Mark was an interrupt for bosses.

I wish Greater Marks and Staff Mastery were combined or one of them was moved to a minor trait skill but, if I plan on using staff a lot, I put 20 into DM for both and lean toward a condition build with Epidemic. I hate to quibble too much on a topic we all seem to agree on, combining both staff traits to thin the DM tree a bit, but I do not feel like the case for always taking Greater Marks is quite that solid.

WvW and PvP condition builds certainly benefit a lot from GM due to the rampant chaos of battle but in PvE it is less necessary, though still helpful. Mainly, I would like one of them to replace Reanimator (or have PotH replace Reanimator and have GM take its place at 15) so that when I do put 20 points into DM, I can also pick another trait skill.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if somehow a celestial set should somehow be “good” with a 20/20/x/x/x arrangement. Traits should be non-linear in order to stack properly with an elite gear set but they cannot be OP or UP. The celestial stats are like runes of Divinity in that they are relatively weak for one focus area but neither too weak, nor too strong given the combined stat boosts.

Trait skills, accessories, and consumables go a long way toward focusing the Necromancer’s utility skill set

I run wells and marks on staff using builds that lean more toward hybrid or a balanced blend of stats but do not run fractals that often, though always in PUGs. Under water is pretty simple using Bone Fiend, BiP, and Epi. On land I switch utilities depending on the situation but usually take the Corruption trait for BiP and Epi CD or targeted wells ans ritual mastery. I run a lot of ranged AoE and Consume Conditions.

Gear is Rampager, Rabid, or Soldiers with an eye toward precision. I try not to be too glassy or too tanky.

I wonder if the gear is really that bad and plan on getting a set to work with. Focus can be gotten via traits, accessories, runes, sigils, and consumables. I won’t be 100% of one thing or another but celestial rear is powerful and flexible. If Arenanet does something about Necromancer’s healing for better sustain when under heavy fire and unable to avoid damage or escape, then I can see how a balanced set might be useful.

The Grenth temple set was not horrible when I had it. It was not optimal for anything but it was also not bad at some situations, either. When things go wrong in a PUG, it is nice to be able to pull out a set that more supportive rather than troll or leave the group.

I have been running the temple Melandru set on my Warrior for months with little desire to change it.

If you want silly, how about if Shadow Fiend’s skill became a location exchange (teleport) with the Necromancer. When it dies, it explodes with a stun. When not in combat, a string tied to it will allow the Necromancer to float over Tyria.

Fluffy Bunny Hopkins?

<3 ~magics~

Thanks, Softspoken. That was wellspoken.

Hybrid is the best option for Dhuumfire. Need enough precision to proc it though condition damage give it more punch. Even so, the case for it is dubious.

Minion Master is very much improved over it was but the profession is not really like GW1. Consider yourself lucky not to have experienced minions as they were released. Sit back with your ugly flesh lumps and relax. They will not wither when anything looks at them cross-ways, or scurry away in search of trouble only to bring it back and lay it at your feet like a proud kitty-cat while you are still on cool-down from the last fight.

Tests can give misleading results. First, if you are in a group that can give 100% burning up-time, then taking Dhuumfire over Close to Death is just wrong. Second, Close to Death only turns on at < 50% health but it always turns on and always for the stated bonus. This works differently on trash mobs, bosses, and other players so you need to consider your situation. Third, results are very similar for the two Grandmaster traits and Dhuumfire does not really address Necromancer’s “sustain” so I keep wondering why Necromancer needed it in the first place. It may be that something was necessary in that Grandmaster block that would not be OP but would allow Axe Training to be moved down to the middle tier.

In any case, adding a burning condition really goofs up equipment loads because I was (successfully) tempted to use two runes for extended burn duration when there are no other skills that add that condition.

Yup. It has been that way. Use Life Transfusion at the end of DS, if you like.

Spectral walk returns a person to the point of origin. Flesh Wurm is a teleport and, as such, has restrictions that will make you wish you had slammed you hand in a car door, instead.

Grasp will not pull an ally or NPC off an object or area into another area (usually of different elevation). Bosses, too, are immune.

I am sure it is better now but, in dungeons, when it was not on CD I was thinking, ‘Holey doughnuts, do I spend it now… do I?’ Use Consume Conditions with it as a reward for your masochism. In PvP, it should be fine but I developed an aversion to it early.

This post reminds me to dust it off and see how it works, again. Thanky.

I have been thinking about this topic and decided I just do not know, anymore. I leveled Necromancer right after the beta-nerfed game release well before the patches to improve minions and dps. Now, I run around level-adjusted but with the entire skill set. Other professions I have been leveling since seem a lot less squishy and more capable than my original Necro but that is not a fair comparison.

I agree with cyst. Staff may have some longer CD skills but firing off the 3-4 combo and the other marks is pretty rapid. After that, switch to another weapon set. Staff 2 has regen and is helpful in healing both you and your minions. Use DS as a third weapon set. In all, you can rotate through 3 weapon sets and utilities without much waiting on CD just like with other jobs.

I understand both of your concerns but Blood Fiend is an under-performing healing utility. Other means of condition management compete with it or builds that would use it are not very good. The best condi-removals are Putrid Mark for staff and Deathly Swarm for off-hand dagger, though the dagger on a minion build is not nearly as popular as a focus, which has synergy with axe for vulnerability stacking.

As for the rest, Consume conditions is the most popular of the three heal skills followed by Well of Blood for group AoE support. Signet and well utilities do not work well with a minion build with the signet being especially weak. Spiteful Removal only procs on an oponent’s death so it is great for casual trash mob farming but little else. Shrouded Removal competes with the minion traits in that line. Fetid Consumption is only available as Grandmaster in the healing trait line.

The limited functionality of Blood Fiend means many running minions use Consume Conditions, instead. An improvement in Blood Fiend would just get it up to par with the other healing skills, not make Necromancer OP.

Sorry about that, sorrow. I read the suggestion to not give bonus heals for conditions but Life Force, instead. That sounded like a nerf.

Problem: Blood Fiend does not remove conditions or dodge incoming damage and, when beside me, can be one-shotted by the same AoE that hits a Necromancer thereby putting a needed heal on cool down; especially if the minion has already taken damage.

Suggested solution: Allow Blood Fiend to remove 1 condition per X seconds by default and make it sacrifice itself for the Necromancer becoming 25% Life Force and auto-triggering Death Shroud. It would be nice if the Necromancer could alternatively gain a heal if already in DS.

1 condition removed per x seconds
On death not triggered by the player – trigger DS and add LF or, if already in DS, add health

I agree completely about Blood Fiend, Rennoko, but am not as negative about minions in general. The two things to remember about them is they need to be traited to work halfway decently and they are the Necromancer’s closest build to an Easy Button. Just set them out and know most of them will work for you most of the time while providing a distracion you can use for damage avoidance.

A recent argument made me compare Consume Conditions, again, to Blood Fiend so I ran around farming mat’s in Cursed Shore. The minion lost that argument, again. It needs to remove conditions or heal a lot more before it has even a chance. ConCon heals more with conditions and its CD is somewhat guaranteed where Blood Fiend can get one-shotted by the same AoE that just burned down my own health so it is not ther when I need it. That gives me an idea to post in the suggestion area, though.

Playing around with Necromancer and Engineer, I wondered if one of the utility skills could be replaced with a potion kit similar to that found in Engineer. The kit could have a mix of AoE conditions and heals. The skill could also be grandmaster modifications of Acidic Poison Cloud to change the weapon set to medium range, mark-sized group support utilities.

Minions do not dodge. Use them in situations where they do not have to. Open world PvE is good for minions as is holding a point or line to some extent. Some dungeons work better with minions than others. If you are looking for the one build that does everything really well, Necromancer is probably not where you will find it.

Plan your build around what you intend to do ahead of time and caugh out the silver when you want to do something else is my advice. I do wish Arenanet would allow builds to be saved as favorites along with equipment, though.

Please no nerfing Consume Conditions. It is not over-powered and is a core part of many builds. If anything, Necromancer’s heals are barely sufficient for its health and, without the condition removal, Necromancer would be sub-par compared to other professions. Remember that Necro has only Flesh Wurm as a gap opener and poor damage avoidance skills. Necromancer’s heals have to be better than average because the profession is designed to take more damage.

Minor grammar goof

Consume Conditions, Well of Power, Deathly Swarm, and Putrid Mark are our main condition removal skills. Consume Conditions heals more for each condition and gives 5240 in 1 second where Blood Fiend can do a bit more than double that in 25 seconds, which does not include Blood Fiend’s 90 second CD if it dies or its lack of condition removal whereas CC will change conditions into health every 25 seconds. The minion was buffed in its heal during a recent patch but is still difficult for me to justify its lack of condition clearing.

Well of Suffering only does 7525 base damage but that damage scales rapidly with Power where minions do not and that damage is applied within 6 seconds in a large AoE able to hit several mobs at once if they are kind enough to just stand there without dodging just like minions. Trash mobs can be eliminated more rapidly with AoE so the Necromancer will have fewer enemies to worry about taking damage from.

Being able to do spike heals that reward condi-removal and rapid AoE damage is more valuable to me than carrying the maximum number of minions. When playing in a group, being able to do support heals with Well of Blood and raise downed players with Signet of Undeath may detract from my damage output but it pays back in helping to keep the group dps up. I have no qualms about changing my play style and skill set as needed. I use minions as distractions, meat shields, explosive bait, fire-and-forget weapons, and as knock-downs but I do not love them overly much.

When it comes to crowd control, minions are only expendable bait. AoE damage is my trump card. When playing 1v1, minions are great but I would still only carry enough healing to keep me alive and devote the rest to dealing damage. I do not want minions to die too early but also will not limit my own damage just to keep them alive longer.

The OP’s build has so much healing that damage output suffers. There is no additional precision beyond what you get without any armor or trait points. I would only run that on a group support/heal build but that is just my opinion. Like AgedGnome said, without enough damage from the player, the OP will be dependent on the minions and they could easily be in cool-down leaving the Necromancer with only staff, focus, and dagger for minor heals and condition management.

Your facts are correct.

With that conservative a build you will be using your minions as bait. AgedGnome has the right of it, I think. Minions are created to die so let them and respawn when their timer is up. That may sound harsh but they are not meant to be beloved pets. I used to hate them with a passion back when they had behavioral problems and could be one-shotted so I admit to being biased.

Anyway, Blood Fiend and Shadow Fiend are still not my favorites. There is no reason why you cannot mix a few other utilities into your hot bar. Well of Suffering is a great way to welcome any mob that approaches and will do plenty more damage than Shadow Fiend with your Spite. I have tried running all minions but there are other skills that are better in some situations. Feel free to moderate your choices as the situation merits. Necromancer is fairly forgiving that way.

If you put too much effort into keeping your minions alive, you are not playing them as Arenanet intended. They have to die and deserve it.

They are going to do it in a way no one expects.

Flesh Wurm portal has a lot of limitations but, if you need to take or hold an area, Flesh Wurm is a lot like Bone Fiend with its ranged attack. I use both of those minions for Tequatl because I can pop them in a relatively safe place and their ranged auto-attack really adds substantial damage. The Wurm’s vitality was improved recently so it does not die when people frown at it. Adding Flesh of the Master and Training of the Master also help durability and damage.

I like your thoughts, AgedGnome. I do not hate Dhuumfire but I have to wonder why it has to compete directly with Close to Death while not doing anything to help what is supposed to be an attrition class with dps based upon stacked conditions and no combat escape mechanisms.

Necromancer needs an alternative to Close to Death that plays differently rather than a condition like Dhuumfire; something like where the player gains some Toughness or Vitality on timers depending upon incoming dps, along with gaining Vigor. If Necromancer is going to be a profession that cannot escape and can barely dodge when not exhausted, then it needs a trait that rewards damage taken.

It needs a trait skill that rewards Masochism!

Edit: In fact, a trait skill could use a formula to add large healing and smaller power and precision bonuses depending upon incoming dps. That would force opponents to monitor how quickly they unload on the hapless Necromancer. A backstab may proc regeneration, life leach, vigor, fury, stability, and might. That’s boon access typically rare for Necromancer. Something like that will also encourage powermancers to use more boon duration boosts and can be counteracted by conditionmancers running corruption or well skills. Proc’ing stacks of boons and heals enumerated by damage received will also encourage players to put points into the Death and Blood Magic lines, which will be impossible if the intent is to make a high-dps build. It is a classic allocation problem Necromancers have always had to deal with.

darkace.8925:

I’m not sure why you’d expect a trait in the Power/Condition Duration trait line to add survivability or crowd control counters. If you want healing or toughness boost traits, perhaps you should look into the Toughness or Vitality trait lines?

Those lines are already packed but there are complaints Dhuumfire makes hybrid and fear builds too powerful while Necromancer survivability for focused fire is still pretty bad given the lack of mobility and damage avoidance skills. Necomancers cannot escape a fight so, if putting a condition that requires a lot of precision in a power trait line is okay, why not replace it with something to make it tankier instead of doing more damage but not addressing the easy prey problem?

After playing around with it, I found Dhuumfire only benefits glassy builds by increasing dps, not by improving a Necromancer’s ability to survive sustained damage and mobility control.

Dhuumfire seems designed to replace Close to Death if a player is willing to devote enough trait or equipment toward precision. This does nothing to improve survivability but encourages players to run glassy builds, until they find out those builds are still as glassy as they ever were.

Please replace Dhuumfire with a healing or toughness boost trait.

Ah, well, Necromancers are used to picking at their own scabs just to see what is underneath.

I, personally, do not think Dhuumfire is OP but I also do not think keeping it is worth screwing up Terror. Nor do I think Dhuumfire will “fix” the class as it actually only benefits glassy builds. The need for enough precision to proc a condition in the power tree and outdo Close to Death is a tough sell. In other words, why try to obsolete Close to Death in the first place? Why not just make it apply at less than 75% health? I do not understand Arenanet’s thinking.

The difficulty I have with Dhuumfire is it works great in a glass cannon build with Terror. Dhuumfire does little, if anything, for more conservative builds. Did hybrid builds need more rapid damage, or something to help make a profession without a gap-opener besides a couple of short Fears and very limited stability and boon access better at attrition?

I wish Arenanet would combine Greater Marks and Staff Mastery.
I wish they would replace Reanimator with Dark Armor.
I wish they would shorten CD on Spectral Armor.
I wish they would do something to counter spike damage like a non-linear heal curve.
There are a lot of things I would prefer over having to choose between Close to Death and Dhuumfire.

I guess I would vote for just putting the Spite tree back the way it was and looking at potential improvements to spectral and healing skills. Te ability to withstand high damage is a core part of the Necromancer’s design principle. Protection, healing, toughness, rezing; those are skills that need to be tweaked and extended to cover allies, not adding spike damage.

I had suggested a non-linear healing scale for Necromancer and Warrior based on the amount and rate of damage taken but we got a condition in the power tree, instead.

I played around with burning in Malchor’s Leap last night and decided it was very situational whether it is worth traiting for. I needed enough crit chance to get it to proc as often as I wanted. That meant putting a lot of points into Curses or wearing a lot of precision gear. It forced me toward a glass cannon build, which would be nice if I had better damage avoidance skills. It worked okay for trash mobs but trying to take on veterans with knock-downs while attempting to dodge catapult fire highlighted the low stamina of the class. I started wishing for a more tanky build after trying on all of my gear types.

Having a condition that procs on crit placed in Spite at Grandmaster is just goofy. It is like Arenanet wanted to nerf it from the outset. If they wanted to limit Necromancer’s dps, they could have placed it in Death or Blood Magic. Instead, Dhuumfire seems made for the hybrid glass cannon or power/fear builds. This probably contributes to the perception that Necromancer is OP.

If Arenanet wanted to improve Necromancer’s sustainability in combat, I would have buffed spectral skills more; particularly in shortening SA’s CD and making SW an AoE dome to add more tankiness rather than encouraging the glass cannon builds. I would love to have a dome that adds protection and vigor or retaliation instead of a wall that adds protection and fear

Rennoko.5731:

Anchoku.8142:

Please do, Rennoko. I have not verified it with Fraps but assumed it true after less rigorous experiments combining multiple methods of condi-duration increase.

I can verify that lingering curses has no effect on Earth Sigil or the burning from 30 points in spite. Both effects last the same duration lingering curses on/off.

Thank you, Rennoko. The encouraging results I had from using Dhuumfire on scepter must hace been only from Spite, runes, and food, along with the extended bleed and poison duration. I plan on spending time in rabid gear using scepter and axe on a hybrid build to get a better feel for comparative strength between weapons. Dhuumfire definitely favors a condition damage / duration build versus target the weak.

Will investigate more after work and over the holiday.

Please do, Rennoko. I have not verified it with Fraps but assumed it true after less rigorous experiments combining multiple methods of condi-duration increase.

I thought damage was pretty good. It certainly had not noticeably changed in my eyes but did not pay it much attention. I am just giddy with joy for not going straight from downed to dead anymore.

Hanzo, it sounds like you are disappointed by Dhuumfire. I tried it out, myself, and found it synergizes best with the Curses line’s Lingering Curse scepter condition duration buff. Add a slice of pizza and some condi duration runes with proc on crit sigils or just sigil of force. Scepter, to me, seemed like a power/axe build equivalent that plays a bit more like conditionmancer.

Dhuumfire does very little, if anything, for MM, wells, and spectral skills. It has some potential with corruption utilities, specifically BiP and Epidemic, but if you are running axe the trade between axe training on a powermancer hybrid and lingering curses on a conditionmancer hybrid may not be significant.

Dhuumfire buffed another hybrid variant for those who want to run scepter and slipped axe training down to master level for those who like axe. The change did enable more damage overall but it is not an OP buff as many had hoped.

I actually think MM is the easiest. All of your utilities are on autopilot, for the most part. Put 20 into spite for 30% minion damage boost, 20 into death magic for minion master and flesh of the master, and 20 into blood magic for the vampiric traits. The remainder can go wherever you like. Use consume conditions for your heal and the rest of the utilities are minions. It is an uncomplicated, durable build. All you have to do is make sure your minions are out and activate their skills when you like.

Like Badjas, I recommend staff and scepter/dagger. You have to be practically looking the other way and at a different elevation for scepter to miss, unlike main hand dagger or even axe.

If you want some vitality mixed with your armor and have more than enough precision but will not sacrifice any of your high critical hit bonus, then use some Valkyrie in place of your Berserker. You can also mix your accessories to the same effect without touching the armor. It is up to you to determine when your build is too squishy. In a full berserker, you probably use DS for the boons and emergencies, anyway.