Guild Wars 2

Kirito.3591:

Infernia.9847:

I have already stated my opinion on this matter so all I’m going to do is post something simple.
Here’s the thread with a number of posts 17days ago asking for clarification. There was no response until the ‘banhammer’ had already dropped. It was in the BUGS sub forum where most people would go looking for the answer to the question whether it was a bug/exploit or an intended recipe:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Is-this-intended-with-the-snowflakes/first#post1136155

Here’s where the timely response was when the question was asked 17days ago and answered a day later… in the BLTC sub forum under a title that most legitimate players wouldn’t be searching in:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/How-to-make-1-glob-of-ectoplasm-into-stacks/first

I said I was on the fence because I didn’t like: the exploit, the way the guilds have no way to re-establish leadership with a banned, deleted, abandoned leader account, or the fact it was a permanent ban and not temporary ban with a fine.

What is so wrong with a net sending out an email to announce the exploit and punishment or even an announcement in News to make sure everyone knew they were risking their account. COMMUNICATION is very lacking and had it not been many of the grievances would never have occurred.
EDIT: I am not saying this isn’t an exploit, I am saying it wasn’t clear to everyone that it was and therefore timely communication could have saved a lot.

I recall seeing a post stating that Chris Whiteside from ANET wanted to improve ANet’s communication with its playerbase… This seems like a huge failure in that regards. As you said, a simply announcement/email/etc would have done wonders for informing players. Maybe an in-game mail to all players when they log in. But that’s not all, you have ANET employees refusing to answer or even attempting to answer the question when asked in-game (http://i.imgur.com/0SICA.jpg)

TL;DR: I agree that there needs to be more communication between anet and the players.

While many people will say that those who use the forums only represent a minority of the total playerbase, ANet has other means of making announcements. The launcher for example. A quick blurb “The XXX recipe has a bug that can be considered an exploit. >>Click here to find out more<<” Or an in-game mail explaining that there’s a bug with the salvaging of XXX and that exploiting this bug will result in a ban of XXX days (or indefinitely, whatever).

That would be great if they could use the features they already have to inform us.

Send us an ingame mail or an email to our registered accounts on stuff you expect us to know instead of reporting to other websites and forcing us to use the dev tracker.

Skyrant Kangaroomouse.7458:

ReginaBuenaobra.6953:

The number of accounts terminated as a result of this exploitative activity is actually very small—fewer than 200. However, these people are the very worst offenders, and engaged in this exploit to egregious levels—hundreds and even thousands of times. They knew exactly what they were doing and they knew that their activities would damage the economy.

As a reminder, when we dealt with the karma exploit incident in September, we said that we would show some leniency for that particular incident. However, we made it clear that future exploits would be dealt with more firmly. As a result, we have terminated the accounts of the worst offenders in this most recent incident.

As always, if you have an exploit to report, please email exploits@arena.net.

Thank you.

This is not an exploit. It is a regular recipe you put into the game without testing or checking the implications. If you do not check then you can not come after the fact and ban people for abusing it. Why do you have an Economist on staff? I guess he is nto much of an economist if he can’t even prevent things like that. AND THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME!

You #% are too #^& to make a stable economy and balanced crafting since DAY ONE. How about you pull your head out of your $%#@ and pay attention to what you are doing.

Your incompetence is unmatched.

I’d CC that email address to this post. Cause it’s 100% correct. As much as I’d like to hear a dev/mod post, I don’t want them to post anything repetitive into the discussion. We know what they have to say but are they really listening to what we have to say?

Loyn.2830:

Skin Changer.8073:

Sorry for bad grammar, I tried my best.

Let’s see the “Exploits” section of the below link first.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-state-of-the-guild-wars-2-economy/

After hours of thinking, I think I have the answer why they got perma banned. And I think they deserved to be punished.

“Exploits are errors in the game or third party programs that create opportunities for players to move outside the conventional means of gaining value (gold, experience, skills, etc.).”

Since crafting rare silk shoulders and snowflake mithril earring of winter are pretty similar.
And John Smith said “I always keep a quote from Edward Coke around to remind me of the effect of informed individuals. Coke states, “Certainty is the mother of quiet and repose, and uncertainty the cause of variance and contentions.”
People asked if snowflake is an exploit 17 days ago, and didn’t get the response. So if snowflakes is an exploit/error/bug sounds “uncertainty” to many people(also to me),but that is not the reason they got perma banned. I believe Anet wont sentence people whom are not well informed to death.

“For example, a player discovers a recipe that allows them to craft items from vendor goods for only 50 copper and then sell back the crafted item for 100 copper. The player now has an infinite loop of value gain. If this were working as intended the game’s currency would hyper-inflate very, very quickly as all players swarmed to this recipe to generate gold”

This looks like the answer, but let’s look the following examples.

Plague crafts from Orichalcum Band*1 Orichalcum Setting*1 CM tokens*200
sells on TP at 31G(highest order is 14G).

Selling a legendary GS at 9500G.

Buying jug of Friesson’s ale from vendor at 16c and selling on TP at 76c.

They all find a recipe or a way that allows them to have an infinite loop of
value gain. Do they get banned? Nope.

Also buying items from vendors and selling back is different from selling on TP.
The former can be seen as exploiting a flaw in game, while the latter ? Since when people pursuing the wealth through the free market is a “crime”?

“Exploits come in waves of mass participation and in the end, if they aren’t dealt with, the economy becomes hyper-inflated. “

ReginaBuenaobra North American Community Team Lead also said
“The number of accounts terminated as a result of this exploitative activity is actually very small—fewer than 200. However, these people are the very worst offenders, and engaged in this exploit to egregious levels—hundreds and even thousands of times. They knew exactly what they were doing and they knew that their activities would damage the economy”

Do you see the answer now? Anet banned them because those people are hurting the economy. That is a serious crime if you are hurting the “gem economy”. Those people just violated crime of incitement to overthrow the state. If earning gold is that easy, who will buy the gems? How does Anet profit ?

PS.I am “100%” support Anet’s decision this time, so I hope this article won’t get deleted. I should not debate Customer Support decisions or actions. I was a fool and now I learn my lesson.

The problem is example after example, people did not do this to influence, the market, the didn’t influence the market, they had no affect other than buy up raw materials. I know first hand many people who got banned for this who a) did NOT make bunches of gold b) didn’t sell any ectos but used them to craft things for themselves.

90% of the people I know that got banned fall into category A, and ALL of them fall into category B.

I ask again, if this killed the market economy why did they wait 17 days to ban people?

Hasn’t most of the “ill-gotten” gold already been dispersed into the game?

Didn’t the overall effect us usage of the TP actually remove gold from the game?

Right, totally agree. The friend I lost due to this awful incident only used the ectos for himself for his ascended backpiece. No harm done there? I’m sorry that someone out there didn’t get to profit off of him? But it’s not like you can anymore anyways cause he got BANNED due to poor design. And a bunch of people who do not understand how much it saddens oneself to not be able to play with a friend and witness a friend lose all of their stuff by doing no harm to anyone aka not putting what he made into gold production but own personal use. In that regard, I consider this a non-permanent ban situation—I don’t see how this hurts anyone let alone the economy. And regardless, it’s not just 200 people who lost their ability to play. I feel it hard to log on knowing that I can’t play with as many friends again.

Let me know, I’m pretty much done with this game and I want to help people catch up for all the time and hardwork they lost.

One thing I want to add is looking a this problem on a bigger picture.

We are all new players. This is our first mmo. We all find this new recipe for a special event during winter and it seems to grant us good ecto supply. We all use it for ourselves to make those clovers we want, the capacitors from fotm, the other things that use this high tier mat.

If all of us used it, would it be a perma bannable exploit? Can Anet really ban all of us? What draws the line on when they’ll bite the bullet and accept that they made a mistake? What draws the line on where they’ll care more about how many people are playing than how well the economy is doing?

From this incident, all I can see is that ArenaNet doesn’t really consider the basic laws of morality, 2nd chance.

Since the beginning of every single exploit, it should have always been 1st offense = temp ban. Then 2nd offense = perma ban. I doubt anyone argue about anyone’s legitimacy in that regard, because a lot of people don’t know it the first time, but they’ll always keep it in mind a second time. But putting first time offenders with constant offenders is just horrible.

I don’t want to imagine that everyone I’m playing with is a hardcore “kill all the exploiters”. Freaking, they are players too and I want them to play still, but what Anet can do is do things the right way and put them back on the right track.

Never knew this game was a sanctuary of purists who can’t take the time to teach the people who play mmos for the first time, or finally found a game they like playing, the honorable way to play.

I request a defiant stack for each player for immunity towards the first offense but it removes all buffs when you use the banhammer skill. Then you can use the banhammer skill to full effect on the next attack.

Ellie.5203:

i’m interested to know, how someone i know who made a vast amount of ectos (over 250) still has his account, yet someone else i know actually LOST gold on this recipe got banned.. logic ? if the worst offenders were banned, how are some of them still running around the game while others are not ..

i also think to introduce a recipe, and then declare the ingredients were meant to be something else, how can you blame the players for this.. because we should magically know what you intended the recipe to be? (and for the record, i do not even have JC craft, was not banned and did not make a single item so i’m not posting this because im kitten i got caught or anything) but i still find it crazy people have been perma banned over this,

if YOU make an error in a recipe YOU add to game, players do not deserve to be perma banned for it.. We cannot be expected to KNOW that it’s wrong.. and also to say that you made a public announcement after the karma thing..so people should have known this would happen.. not all people were around at that time to read that post, not all people check every day on the website to make sure you didnt make a mistake again and have posted about it.. try sending out mass emails or in game mails to the player base to make sure they are aware of what is going on, not just leave it on our backs to check you guys havent made more mistakes

take back the items, re-roll the chars, remove the gold whatever, but to mass ban people for a recipe you made a mistake on is absurd, you cannot just make the assumption all players should know what you guys intend to be right or wrong, we are here to play the game not step on eggshells over every new items/recipe/content you add for fear that we make a step wrong and get perma banned over it.. ridiculous

Right, really dislike how they expect us to read stuff they put out through other party means and don’t really stand out. “You guys should have all read that one post in mmorpg about such and such and you would have known we wouldn’t take anymore crap like this”. Wait what? I didn’t even know about the whole karma incident until this snowflake thing poppped up. And I check the forums frequently!

laharl.8435:

So is this a good skill versus the Grawl fractal boss? I’m having trouble with him at scale 30. When the Lava Elementals come out, are they using projectile attacks?

Yes they are. So use spirit shield and wall of reflect, and you’ll see a lot better results.

Other.1037:

Craziplaya.2103:

Choxie.9438:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

If you want to progress in fotm and don’t want to farm for the better infusion recipes, then just grab the 75 relic ones in the store.

That’s exactly what I’m asking, what’s the point of the better infusions? Since they only give +5 stats, I mean if it was like, +50 then maybe I’d consider it. But since the simple infusion gives you +5 AR already, seems abit off to spend a whole bunch of mats on the +5 stat +5 AR infusions

You need more AR per tier. 15 for T2, 25 for T3, etc

Yes you do but the question raised is whether there’s a real reason to craft an Infusion such as a Healing Infusion for example instead of spending some relics on a Simple Infusion. One’s costly to make and the other can be easily brought with materials earned through completing the lower level FOTM content and the only real difference is a small stat increase that doesn’t affect AR.
Aside from some edge cases there’s not much reason to chose a crafted infusion over a bought one at the moment. Honestly I think if you personally can’t think of a reason why you’d need the fancy one yourself then you probably don’t need it at all for the time being. Just buy the ones from the Golem OP, they’ll likely do you quite fine for now.

To answer you question.

No. If you aren’t a completionist who wants the 15 extra points in whatever stat, then no. It’s easier just buying the 75 relic one in fotm.

BroScientist.9875:

Being perma-banned seems kind of harsh. A much more reasonable action would have been maybe a two week suspension. There would have been much less of a community outcry while still punishing the offenders.

I think that’s the main point of this incident. I don’t care whether it could be deemed an exploit or not. But the punishment was way too harsh for it’s degree of impact. Unless ArenaNet could show how many people left the game due to this problem. But in addition to a temp ban, a gold reset too or individual rollback if their tech is powerful enough).

@Doc @TrapjaW I totally agree. Another thing that’s been bothering me is how much it really affected people? And do people know why exploiting is bad?

It’s bad when it hurts you. The major thing is affected was the ecto selling (NOT buying) business. Do we really have a lot of people selling ectos? And regardless, ectos is used so much, I would like to think having more ectos more accessible was a good thing for most players (maybe not the economy). If you really don’t want people to be rich—-it’s pretty easy—Don’t buy from the TP

But sometimes I get the feeling that most pro-ban people are witch hunters with pitch forks. But it really caused no detrimental harm. It didn’t cost anyone here there lifetime savings nor their hours invested, but you know what, it cost the ban people everything. And looking at how some people react to the situation, it’s just so wrong. I don’t know how other players can look at them that way. They weren’t grieving you or anything. And I can’t imagine how much they impacted your day to day life except it would be 200 people richer than you that you would be possibly jealous about. But that takes an easy (gold reset) and a temp ban so they fall behind. A perm ban is just too much for this incident.

Rogacz.9865:

Just like every other jewlcrafting recipe.

Oh just like every other jewelcrafting recipe? Like this?
Beryl Mithril Ring
Ingredients:
1X Mithril Setting[s]
1X Mithril Band[s]
3X Embellished Brilliant Beryl Jewel[s]

3X Embellished Brilliant Beryl Jewel[s]

3X

3

I wouldnt say just like when other jewelcrafting recipies you at most get back 1/3 of jewels back. Again, deliberately ignoring the obvious.

You are ignoring the new component — the snowflake. Sure it can be reused, but what if you lost it and they were priced at 1g? This was a new recipe--it’s hard to believe that all recipes would stay the same with new updates and whatnot.

This is not a continutation of the snowflake ban protest, but it is related. But let me ask you, what damage did it do to you? Like seriously, what did it do?

Right now, in this day and time, what did it do to you?

For me, it did nothing for me, because I don’t buy many things from the TP…I..you know…dungeon or farm them?

And you could say they didn’t have an impact now, but later if they weren’t banned (why not just take away all their gold)?

And you are telling me 200 or less people can affect 2million copies being sold?

Red Falcon.8257:

Permabans were only given to people who purposely abused of this, aka did this dozen of times.
If you did it dozens of times then you knew you were abusing a bug, and therefore you were flat-out exploiting.
Those who did not abuse this were not perma’d.

This already happened during release days with the karma things… at that time you could say “it’s all new, I didn’t know!” even if you bought 100s of those items, but now you get perma’d.

Make a new account and play LEGIT, or don’t come here ever again.

When did it become a crime to make money given a recipe. Regardless if it gave you a lot of money, why should I ever second guess a process when it makes it into production supposedly going through test phases. I mean doing it twice in unit testing could have shown any developer that its not a viable recipe. But instead they gave people a trap.

Rising Dusk.2408:

A good friend of mine was banned because he helped me make ecto using this method since I wasn’t max jeweler at the time. The only reason his numbers must appear so high is because he literally crafted enough of these things for me to burn through all of my BL salvage kits (I had like eight).

Anyway, let me put some perspective to this. When I first realized that this recipe existed, I thought the following: “ANet is intentionally trying to drive down the price of ecto because it is getting out of control, and I applaud their active stance in helping players” Do you know why I thought this? They added dozens of recipes to the game that require full stacks of ectos in order to play the deepest and darkest difficulty FotM that exists currently. They even made posts in their change logs about their continued monitoring of the prices and costs associated with ascended items and how they were going about balancing that. It made perfect sense to me that they did this intentionally. I said to myself “Man, what a great opportunity to get myself some storage space back and maybe get some stuff that requires ectoplasm!” By the time I started having my good friend craft these for me (for which he was banned today), the market had completely normalized; there was no profit to be had from this at all. It cost the price of an ecto to get the materials to gamble for ecto. The only difference was that I had accrued many a Black Lion Salvage Kit through gems and otherwise (which all costs quite a bit of gold), so I only had to make one of these snowflake items. Great, I thought! How wonderful of ANet to help the market like this, I thought!

I didn’t think anything of it until the recipe was removed and subsequently changed. I had already done the deed, but I had no worries because the market had completely stabilized around the new conditions. It had become no more profitable than crafting level 75 rare tailor items to salvage for ectoplasm, which told me that it was totally legitimate and that ANet decided post mortem that “ehh, maybe we went a bit too far”.

Now, because my friend crafted a bunch of these stupid snowflakes for me, he has been banned. I’m not okay with that. If ANet wants to drive their loyal playerbase into the ground, including people like me who have been customers for a few years shy of a decade, then so be it. I have been in good standing in ANet games (and all games) my entire life, and am shocked that I should have been banned for this, and am even more hurt that I have somehow brought a ban upon someone else for this. I have submitted a support ticket in the hopes that I get banned in his stead, but regardless, I need to say it here that I do not condone this ban. I agreed with the karma item exploit bans, but not this. This was market stabilized in less than 24 hours. This seemed fully in-line with everything that was said by ANet in the change log. This appeared to me fully acceptable within every known parameter in-game. This had a profit margin less than that of standard day-to-day market flipping and manipulation. I had every bit of confidence that this was okay by ANet, and that is why I did it. If ANet had made an announcement, maybe in GW2 (the game)‘s news feed, I would’ve stopped or avoided it, but they didn’t. They kept silent until it was too late, and our fates already sealed. I’m not okay with that. I can handle a lot of things, but this takes the cake. I am sorely disappointed with the company for their actions this day, and as little as I’m sure anyone (including their employees) cares, that’s one less faithful fan for the company.

Well said. In fact, I would trade my account for my friend’s and pay for a new one because my friend was much more dedicated that I was, I just hate that my gameplay has greatly depressed because of the lack of the fun people I play with.

Calae.1738:

I agree with the ban as well. Although we can argue about this forever; exploiters are a minority and they will generally continue to exploit. Deleting thier characters should teach them a valuable lesson. Hopefully; they don’t come back to the game.

Why does everyone group exploiters into the category of repeatable offenses? Quite a few are not, believe it or not. And that’s what I’m discussing about. Not exploiters in general and the glutton exploiters. Why not make it so (at least in America) everyone who speeds gets a ticket and doesn’t have a “prayer for judgement” or a way to reduce the cost. No, let’s give them the whole deal because they did it the first time. I am seriously considering the other side arguments, but it makes no sense put the same people who steal for the first time in the same category as a con artist.

If you are tired of these, threads, please discuss somewhere else. But rollback is what I think should be the best option and a flag for a warning so the 2nd offense would get you banned like an kitten nice person would.

azurrei.5691:

No, the punishment was not harsh. I’m so glad people got perma-banned this time – I guarantee you a lot of the same people who have exploited other things in this game exploited this as well (orichalcum realm xfer exploit, karma weapon exploit, etc.) Arena Net needs to take a hard stance with exploiters so people think twice about doing something that obviously was not intended.

And I know at least one guy who didn’t exploit other things except this but not even to the extent which I think Gaile was talking about, but still suffered the same consequences, but sure, let’s punish all people with a very small tolerant level. Profit a million, death penalty—-profit a hundred, death penalty. Seems fair. (sarcasm)

or use a tool to keep things under control and keep your community because all it takes is one good friend for me to consider leaving.

heck, maybe give your QA team some good treats if they would bother to play the game and know how recipes work.

MistyMountains.3751:

Its in ToS, you agreed to said ToS when u signed up for an account, before you ever started playing. You’re friend agreed to ToS, broke ToS, was then punished for his actions.

Lesson to learn- Play the game fairly so that everyone can enjoy the game instead of trying to find and abuse bugs, and exploits.

Might as well start complaing about other stupidity like " I downloaded a hack got caught hacking and was then banned, omg why didn’t Anet patch this hack before it was made, I shouldn’t be punished for this." …I’m sorry this thread is full of stupidity lol…

Wait what? I am not much of a name caller, but you are a meanymeanykins. But seriously, what is fair in this game if it’s something that was released in a patch that everyone had access to who had to work for their 400 JC. I don’t think the people who were banned try to find these bugs…I’m pretty sure they tried it out because they liked Wintersday and then it hit them on how profitable the recipe was. However, profiting from it actually used ingame mechanics that seemed normal, it’s just the output was abnormal, players don’t have control over the output.

And I’m sorry, but hacks are third party software that wasn’t developed by ANet so I wouldn’t blame them nor try to defend my friend for using it. But it’s like a witch giving snow white an apple and telling her to eat it

Gluttony.2017:

“2. It’s not like stealing from the store. It’s more like that time I saw a pack of cheese for 1 euro and took 5 even though I knew that pack was way too cheap. When I got the the register, they wanted to charge me 3 euro/pack. I refused and pointed at the label. What do you think happened?
a) they banned me from the store for trying to exploit
b) they apologised for their mistake and I got the 5 packs for 1 euro per
Hint: It wasn’t a.”

Great, you only bought 5! Imagine you would have walked up there and said “hey, i want 500 of those!” and then stood infront of the store, selling the cheese for 2 euro each. Its either highly unlikley to happen, and if it does happen its illegal.

for number 3) Anet did the same for the karma exploit guys, were some people were let of the hook if they apologized and destroyed all profit/weapons. Im assuming that they said “screw it, if people want to exploit we show them what happens, off with the kid gloves”.
Ill give you number 4. Still doesnt excuse it though. two wrong doesnt make a right. Although I would like to see the guy who screwed up getting a pay cut/serious scolding. or atleast a public apology.
5. Is a totally different scenario. In the one we are talking about ectos were made out of nothing. In your example, killing the boss trough an exploit or something along that line doesnt mean you suddenly get better loot, and even with skipping/exploiting it would still take 10-15minutes to do, unlike the crafting exploit that allowed you to make a dozen ectos in less then 2 minutes…

Moving onto another post:
“the message sent by ANet is “You made profit from salvaging a crafting item, therefore it is a exploit.”” yes that was totally anets intention. Couldnt possibly be that they are trying to say “if its to good to be true and only avaialbe under certain circumstances that apply to nothing else, thus allowing you to create a huge profit out of next to nothing then its most likley an exploit and should be avoided”.

People really love to over-dramatize things to make it look one party is inocent…

Not innocent, punishment was too harsh, basically perma ban in a game is like the death penalty in real life. We are arguing about 1) if it is an exploit 2) is right to punish with an ingame death penalty. Except you get to be reborn at a cost of $60.

If you want to progress in fotm and don’t want to farm for the better infusion recipes, then just grab the 75 relic ones in the store.

coil.3420:

sooo…a short lived, market-corrected net-ecto salvage requires a perma ban but karma-precursor exploiters are temp ban and not required to delete?

like said before, test stuff before you release & utilize your account rollback system.

no need to be so harsh for such a silly (creative/clever) mishap. it is wintersday after all…

Ho ho ho you’ve been bad this Wintersday, so PERMA BAN FOR YOU. -_- But seriously, how can people who enjoy making these games do this to their players. Especially when a rollback tool should be already set and ready to remedy this development issue.

Wouldn’t this be exploiting?

TWMagimay.9057:

A few things…

1. I absolutely disagree with perma bans for exploiting. Players are as much to blame as devs/publishers. With that in mind…

2. It’s not like stealing from the store. It’s more like that time I saw a pack of cheese for 1 euro and took 5 even though I knew that pack was way too cheap. When I got the the register, they wanted to charge me 3 euro/pack. I refused and pointed at the label. What do you think happened?
a) they banned me from the store for trying to exploit
b) they apologised for their mistake and I got the 5 packs for 1 euro per
Hint: It wasn’t a.

3. I played 9Dragons for a long time under Acclaim(arguably the worst publisher in history). They used to give the occasional free item from the cash shop, 1 per account, not tradable. At some point they were giving weapon safety item*you attach it to a weapon and if upgrading fails, the weapon doesn’t break). People saw the loophole instantly. Make new account, get item, put on weapon -> bam, tradable. Some got over 1000 items like this. What did Acclaim do? They banned all accounts from the same IP that got more than 5. Then they announced they will unban the accounts for 48h and give players the chance to restore the exploited items. Those who delivered, got their stuff back. Those who didn’t got permabanned. Even Acclaim were pro enough to know that it was ultimately their mistake. And Acclaim sucked as a company.

4. So, all of you saying a lvl 400 jewel crafter should know the patterns and instantly realise smth’s off…how about the person who writes the recipes? Shouldn’t s/he know that even better?

5. Last night I was doing fotm 8 daily. One of them wanted to exploit the last boss in frozen fractal. When me and my friend refused, we got scolded and insulted. Should I expect that guy to be banned for exploiting? And why can’t we even report exploiters? Oh, right, because if they banned everybody who exploited the game, they’d have exactly 0 players left. It doesn’t matter how clean you wanna play. If you ever hit the last seal with a skill, you are an exploiter. If you ever took a shortcut in a JP, you are an exploiter. If you ever used los to fight a boss/mobs, you are an exploiter. If you ever took a mesmer portal in a JP, you are an exploiter. Next time you point your fingers and screams “exploiters should be banned”, remember that there are 3 fingers pointing back at you.

Spot on. Great examples. Are we your customers ArenaNet or are we your servants?

Raideen.5973:

I agree with you Arc TheFallen. That, and there is nothing in this game that makes me want to play anymore. Used to be when I would get bored I would log on…now, I watch crummy movies on netflix from the 80’s. Heck reading the wow forums is more entertaining than GW2 anymore…I hate to say it like that but its just my honest opinion.

I can’t believe that this game did not last me as long as SWTOR did and that game was pure punishment.

Yeah, time to put my money into netflix where it’s more worth it. But seriously, not even a “hey, if you were incorrectly banned come to us (as a nice gesture) to sort things”, it has to “i am the law, and this is what it is”. Sorry but, I don’t want that kind of virtual overseer.

Scourge.4317:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Scourge.4317:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Scourge.4317:

Sky.7610:

The decision to permanently ban “exploiters” were made in good faith but the harm associated with the precedent set by ANet with this decision by far exceed any gain. In essence, ANet has sent the message that ANY profitable salvaged material is an exploit, (eg: salvaging a yellow for ecto). I do not think ANet fully comprehend the magnitude of the harm set by this precedent…

The message Anet has sent is actually a good message and does no harm. You cheat the system you get banned. Its that simple. It seems like a lot a lot of common sense is missing in some of these post. The only ones to get banned were the ones that really abused it. Its so easy to make gold in this game if you put in a bit of time but some lazy kitten gamers are always looking for a way to cheat the system. I mean how clueless does a person have to be to not realize that that wasn’t intended?? Come on now be for real. Don’t make excuses for those lazy gamers.

What about the lazy developers who push things into production way too fast. Seriously, he should get fired and I’ll be done with this thread. He gave an opportunity to people that costed them their game.

Making excuses for people who knowingly cheat the system. No he/she shouldn’t get fired because its on the player to have enough common sense to not exploit something that was obviously not intended. Whats done is done and what they did was right. Those that cheated for big gains got caught and paid the price.

When did all of us become players who knew anything about an MMO. Why do you assume everyone in this game called GW2 would ever think that a recipe wasn’t working as intended, because it took effort to get the stuff for the recipe let alone get to 400 jewel crafting. Maybe someone thought that was the benefit of being a 400 jewel crafter and it was a source of profit that the market hadn’t catch up on yet?

How the kitten do we know. When all the posts about it was never answered.

I have 400 JC and i knew enough to not even mess with it and I’m sure plenty others have also. Its hard for me to show any sympathy for people who got banned because I’ve heard this all before in previous mmo’s. Only difference is in this one the only ones to get banned were the ones who really REALLY took it to far and not the ones who maybe did it once or twice. So i don’t see why you and others are trying to defend them. I’m guessing you know someone who got banned?

Correct. As I stated in the opening post. And taking it too far is different imo. If say a person made 500 ectos to get their ascended backpiece. I don’t see that as taking it too far, but some will. But it doesn’t harm anyone actually. But if they did it to make a million gold then yes, that is taking it too far. However, the friend I knew made about 250 for himself and 250 for his friend who did not have 400 JC to save time on fotm runs for themselves. To me, that doesn’t fit into the fine lines of why they banned the exploiters. But I guess they just don’t want to ever cater to individuals and want to base thing on quantity and not quality.

PowerCat.5738:

MMORPGs are a dictatorship. We live under their rule, and we are at their mercy. They have unlimited power over your account and there is nothing binding them to anything.

If they decide to ban you, tough luck. Find another game. Maybe this will affect their PR and lessen their sales?

Sad, it may be time to move on then. I don’t like the way this was handled at all. Thanks for all inputs guys.

Scourge.4317:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Scourge.4317:

Sky.7610:

The decision to permanently ban “exploiters” were made in good faith but the harm associated with the precedent set by ANet with this decision by far exceed any gain. In essence, ANet has sent the message that ANY profitable salvaged material is an exploit, (eg: salvaging a yellow for ecto). I do not think ANet fully comprehend the magnitude of the harm set by this precedent…

The message Anet has sent is actually a good message and does no harm. You cheat the system you get banned. Its that simple. It seems like a lot a lot of common sense is missing in some of these post. The only ones to get banned were the ones that really abused it. Its so easy to make gold in this game if you put in a bit of time but some lazy kitten gamers are always looking for a way to cheat the system. I mean how clueless does a person have to be to not realize that that wasn’t intended?? Come on now be for real. Don’t make excuses for those lazy gamers.

What about the lazy developers who push things into production way too fast. Seriously, he should get fired and I’ll be done with this thread. He gave an opportunity to people that costed them their game.

Making excuses for people who knowingly cheat the system. No he/she shouldn’t get fired because its on the player to have enough common sense to not exploit something that was obviously not intended. Whats done is done and what they did was right. Those that cheated for big gains got caught and paid the price.

When did all of us become players who knew anything about an MMO. Why do you assume everyone in this game called GW2 would ever think that a recipe wasn’t working as intended, because it took effort to get the stuff for the recipe let alone get to 400 jewel crafting. Maybe someone thought that was the benefit of being a 400 jewel crafter and it was a source of profit that the market hadn’t catch up on yet?

How the kitten do we know. When all the posts about it was never answered.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Bans-for-Snowflake-Jewelry-are-unfair/first#post1132023

“I’ve seen the numbers, and the damage to the economy could have been substantial, if the exploit wasn’t closed down and if these people were allowed to use their ill-gotten gains. People whose accounts were terminated were the worst offenders. I’m talking a lot of ill gotten gains, and a significant risk to the economy.
Any time you take one thing and can make two, and then four, and then sixteen… ya gotta know that’s just wrong. (I won’t quibble on the odds, overall, doubling was not outside the rules of probability.) And to perform that action hundreds and hundreds of times? That’s call “exploitation,” my friend, and that’s against the User Agreement, the Rules of Conduct, and all that is holy.
I know the OP will disagree. But we’ve been more than kind, in the past, and everyone needs to own up to his/her errors and recognize: We all are part of the game economy, and those who exploit it are hurting the rest of us.
Exploit closed.
Worst offenders terminated.
That’s what has to happen to make things right for all of us.”

-Gaile Gray

This quote saddens me even more. Let’s exclude the people who reveal your bug to you? How could you have ever known how much impact someone could have done with it without someone reaching that significant number. And how hard is it to make their ingame gold into a 0 value?

And you need to chill out Gaile. Exiling people from your city for pitiful reasons when you are the king of the city makes sense. But don’t you have control over everything in this game. Too lazy to fix it though and drop the banhammer like a boss I guess.

Scourge.4317:

Sky.7610:

The decision to permanently ban “exploiters” were made in good faith but the harm associated with the precedent set by ANet with this decision by far exceed any gain. In essence, ANet has sent the message that ANY profitable salvaged material is an exploit, (eg: salvaging a yellow for ecto). I do not think ANet fully comprehend the magnitude of the harm set by this precedent…

The message Anet has sent is actually a good message and does no harm. You cheat the system you get banned. Its that simple. It seems like a lot a lot of common sense is missing in some of these post. The only ones to get banned were the ones that really abused it. Its so easy to make gold in this game if you put in a bit of time but some lazy kitten gamers are always looking for a way to cheat the system. I mean how clueless does a person have to be to not realize that that wasn’t intended?? Come on now be for real. Don’t make excuses for those lazy gamers.

What about the lazy developers who push things into production way too fast. Seriously, he should get fired and I’ll be done with this thread. He gave an opportunity to people that costed them their game.

AcidicVision.5498:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

It’s not a bug or a glitch. They wrote down a recipe that they didn’t think much about. And it doesn’t give a player an advantage over anyone else. The only advantage they get is more money to what…buy nice stuff? It’s not like they stole money from players directly. Again, you say ban, and I’m not disagreeing with you, but perma banning is totally not cool. I feel like everyone one should get a second chance, not just the people who had the first round of exploiting.

“An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc.”

I bolded the catch all for you because it looks like you missed it the first time you read it.

Yes, the advantage came from having more money and inflating the cost of mats for everyone else in the game. Check out the reddit links to gw spidy that demonstrate the effects this had on the mats used.

And those are only immediate effects of people discovering the recipe and buying the surplus to convert into more ecto or hope to resell at an inflated price. The effects of that extra gold then reach out further to buying rare items or materials to again manipulate the value or flip into precursors to ironfist that entire market like we seen after the godskull incident.

Botters and farmers cause market prices to crash. Exploiters cause market prices to inflate beyond the means of most players. And that is bad for everyone. Hence the extreme punishment. If you participate in an activity that affects players en masse and that can take weeks if not months to naturally recover from, then you don’t need to be playing with other people.

Not sure how it affects everyone in game, when everyone could have done it. If you say that most people didn’t know about it and they were taken advantage of, I’d like to say the same thing for this recipe. Who was supposed to know that it wasn’t intended if they were someone new to rpgs and didn’t understand the concept of losing money when crafting

Orion the Cursed.1206:

- On one hand, players have been warned not to not exploit the economy and report and suspicious activities that might break the game. Punishments must be enforced to prevent future abuses. Protect people who didn’t exploit.

- On the other, its a mistake of the developers. Bad planning. Not enough testing. Slow reaction.

I think the most important thing is that the developers learnt from their mistake and are more careful about releasing new content in the future.

Sorry, I like how you break it down, but to expand on it in my current negative attitude (you are a good poster though! thanks for your input ><)

-On one hand, not all people are aware of their plans/issues—-even on the forums because they are not very communicative.

-One the other hand, they could have just given kids transformer toys for $60 bucks and then took it back when the kids forgot to read the small print that you couldn’t transform them when you could have—but instead you need to buy the pre-transformed version of the transformer toy.

AcidicVision.5498:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

…No. You do not know what the words mean at all. And quit acting like you are superior, I’m talking on an even level here. But fyi,

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3A+cheating
…
Please don’t talk to me about definitions and stay on topic.

“An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game’s designers.¹ It is often colloquially abbreviated sploit. Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_

Hard to stay on topic when the OP isn’t clear what the topic is even about. An exploit is cheating. Exploiting and cheating are bannable offences. And thats all there is to it.

Fortunately, after the second chance that Karma exploiters were given on the goodwill condition they toss everything they earned from it, which most didn’t adhere to…these guys will likely not be given a reprieve.

It’s not a bug or a glitch. They wrote down a recipe that they didn’t think much about. And it doesn’t give a player an advantage over anyone else. The only advantage they get is more money to what…buy nice stuff? It’s not like they stole money from players directly. Again, you say ban, and I’m not disagreeing with you, but perma banning is totally not cool. I feel like everyone one should get a second chance, not just the people who had the first round of exploiting.

Edit: Also, rereading your link, they have been classified as a form of cheating. That means it originally wasn’t. And it’s been a long struggle whether it was a bannable offense in some games—because they aren’t your regular definitions of cheating. That’s why they have a separate word. Otherwise cheating would be used and not exploiting.

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

AcidicVision.5498:

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

AcidicVision.5498:

Exploiters ’gonna Exploit.

Sounds to me like you’re actually condoning the lack of forethought, testing and inaction on the developer’s half. Yes people will try to exploit what they can to give them an edge over the others and the game mechanics, but by the developers actually ENABLING them to do it, who is actually in the wrong?

If you are checking out in a grocery store and the cashier looks away with the register open, who’s fault is it if you grab all the money and run? Who is going to jail, you for making a poor decision or the cashier for enabling you by not closing the drawer?

That rather depends on if the attendant is actually inviting you to take the cash from the drawer. That way not only would you be made to return it (if busted) but the attendant would also probably get reprimanded or lose their job.

Bottom line is don’t create this kind of scenario for people who want to exploit the game for all it’s worth. If there’s so many people working on it as you suggest, why can’t someone come along and test something for integrity? I think that word is really the thing that’s lacking with this game… integrity and basic function-testing, really the duck’s nuts of QA stuff.

I like the way you think. Totally agree.

AcidicVision.5498:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

There’s a difference between exploiting and cheating.

No. There isn’t a difference at all. Exploiting is cheating. And therein lies the problem and why you cannot be reasoned with. For whatever reason you think there is some philosophical difference between exploiting and cheating. But an exploiter is a cheater, plain and simple. They are using the exploit to cheat the system in place.

The two go hand in hand. Exploit a slot machine in Vegas and try telling the pit boss it doesn’t count as cheating. You’ll end up with a lot of broken fingers.

But as long as you actually believe that, there is no reason to discuss it anymore because you are willfully incapable of understanding.

…No. You do not know what the words mean at all. And quit acting like you are superior, I’m talking on an even level here. But fyi,

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3A+cheating

Act dishonest? No, it was brought up it forums plenty of times. Unfair? No, anyone could do it it didn’t put anyone at a disadvantage. But yes, they exploited something that wasn’t intended—-I can see why punishment is necessary, but I still stand by perma ban being way too harsh.

Please don’t talk to me about definitions and stay on topic.

AcidicVision.5498:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

I don’t remember Bungie calling me to return my Halo 4 disc because I exploited something in multiplayer. It’s called patching. It’s called roll-backs. It’s called warnings. It’s called having some game admin etiquette and being the good cop, not the bad cop.

No, they wont call you for the disc back. they will just ban your console or PC and IP from playing online. Like they did here…
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-05-26-bungie-bans-halo-reach-afk-exploiters-article

and here….
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/1600-Hackers-Cheaters-Exploiters-Banned-From-Modern-Warfare-3-37163.html

and here…
http://www.gamespot.com/news/blizzard-bans-several-thousand-diablo-iii-users-6401766

’nuff said.

Seriously?

1) Credit bans are NOT permanent bans. So no.

2) There’s a difference between exploiting and cheating.

3) Same as #2.

‘nuff said? Don’t act like you know everything. If they did 72 hour bans and a ingame money reset, that’d seem more generous. This kind of ban to keep this so called “integrity” is ridiculous.

AcidicVision.5498:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Or how about something we call a “warning”? You know…the kind of thing that gives people a chance? I’m surprised that arenanet has 0 tolerance for people who play their game and enjoy it; exploit or not exploit because exploits aren’t floating around everyday.

The warning was in the terms of service. The thing everyone agrees to. The onus isn’t on Anet for people that didn’t read it. Bans were also doled out for the karma exploit and the peppers exploit, which were the exact same thing as this. And most of those people were given a second chance.

Anet shouldnt have to issue a statement every few weeks reminding people to read what they click to agree to, or to exert a bit of common since if they come across something that can be egregiously exploited to the detriment of every player that isnt doing the same thing.

Well, I’ve never encountered a game that was as buggy as this. And also, remind me the next time you agree to a terms of service and I’ll tell the company to slip in a “…and you agree to pay $100 for the rest of your life to us” at the end. Who reads the terms of service. ArenaNet at the least could use their forums to announce incidents like the karma exploit or whatnot instead of going to third party sites or having the community report them because unlike us forum people, some people have no idea the things that are going on in this game.

And sure, ArenaNet doesn’t have to, we aren’t entitled to it; but I had a little hope that ArenaNet was more about making us into better players than punishing us for being baddies. They play the game and enjoy it. That’s all I’m saying. Botters don’t, they play for the money. But freaking game players who play with you everyday, pug with you, the good ones—-the guys you see running around the map to make it populated; not all people who were banned were straight out money hungry exploiters. Some were new to the game and took a risk, and some had no clue and possibly even thought it was working as intended as a special wintersday thing. But this punishment is beyond me. Was there an answer to any forum question on this matter? No.

Killul.9685:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

AcidicVision.5498:

My opinion on it pretty much echoes the sentiment of the reddit post. If people did this to an extent to get banned then they did it enough to know it wasn’t intended. And they didn’t care. They didn’t care that the ectos and gold flooding the market would have a negative impact on the vast majority of players throughout the entire game.

You can’t just strip the account of someone with that mentality. They will just do it again. I’d wager everything I own that the same people that used the karma weapon exploit and were given another chance, also did the godskull and snowflake exploits.

Exploiters ’gonna Exploit. Best to just get rid of them. In the real world when inconsideration costs you real money, it tends to make you actually think about your actions. Most of the time.

Culling isn’t intended, let’s ban all the thieves who use it.
Bugs in fotm isn’t intended, let’s ban all the higher level people who probably hoped for the bugged fractals and ban them.
Godskull exploiters weren’t banned? Ban them.

Or how about something we call a “warning”? You know…the kind of thing that gives people a chance? I’m surprised that arenanet has 0 tolerance for people who play their game and enjoy it; exploit or not exploit because exploits aren’t floating around everyday.

Obviously they are like any other player and want to play this game; doubt they are just camping LA to wait for a new exploit everytime it comes around. But yeah, let’s go ahead and cut everyone hands off for taking a loaf of bread once.

They don’t ban people for doing it once they ban people who are clearly exploting it. They do it mutlpile times with full knowledge that Anet bans exploiters and that they are exploting. It’s the same as banning botters.

I don’t get your point. Why is it necessary to remove them in the game? Basically ArenaNet is telling him/her that…

“In order for you to play this game again, you need to give me $60, then I’ll let you slide.”

Is that justice to the banned people? I’m not sure, but at least Anet profits from it right? Wrong. Games are meant to be played and enjoyed. I don’t remember Bungie calling me to return my Halo 4 disc because I exploited something in multiplayer. It’s called patching. It’s called roll-backs. It’s called warnings. It’s called having some game admin etiquette and being the good cop, not the bad cop.

GlisteningDragon.3975:

I think every needs to calm down. The community’s response here is out of line. Anet has said, although their comments are now buried because of the horrid downvotes on Reddit, that they only banned the people who exploited this massively. I admit that this was a loophole that should have been caught. It was not and it was pushed and someone found it and published it and then exploited it and made tons of money. You know what, that is an exploit right there.

No one is saying that it’s not an exploit. It’s the punishment for it that’s harsh. Goodness, lock out their accounts for 5 years, take away their clothes, their money. But don’t take away their time. That’s such a horrible decision to make.

AcidicVision.5498:

My opinion on it pretty much echoes the sentiment of the reddit post. If people did this to an extent to get banned then they did it enough to know it wasn’t intended. And they didn’t care. They didn’t care that the ectos and gold flooding the market would have a negative impact on the vast majority of players throughout the entire game.

You can’t just strip the account of someone with that mentality. They will just do it again. I’d wager everything I own that the same people that used the karma weapon exploit and were given another chance, also did the godskull and snowflake exploits.

Exploiters ’gonna Exploit. Best to just get rid of them. In the real world when inconsideration costs you real money, it tends to make you actually think about your actions. Most of the time.

Culling isn’t intended, let’s ban all the thieves who use it.
Bugs in fotm isn’t intended, let’s ban all the higher level people who probably hoped for the bugged fractals and ban them.
Godskull exploiters weren’t banned? Ban them.

Or how about something we call a “warning”? You know…the kind of thing that gives people a chance? I’m surprised that arenanet has 0 tolerance for people who play their game and enjoy it; exploit or not exploit because exploits aren’t floating around everyday.

Obviously they are like any other player and want to play this game; doubt they are just camping LA to wait for a new exploit everytime it comes around. But yeah, let’s go ahead and cut everyone hands off for taking a loaf of bread once.

Pukknub.7368:

Could anyone care to explain what the exploit was about?
Im with very slow net atm so lurking around doesn’t work very well unfortunately.
But correct me if I’m wrong but the exploit was that people salvaged some event trinkets?

If the case is that, I agree that perm ban could be a bit harsh.

More info here. And the thread post contains the recipe:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/151wsw/punishment_for_the_snowflake_jewelryexploiters/

Basically it was a looped recipe to give you more ectos than you put in so it was a profit. Only thing that costed money was BL kits if you didn’t have any. But the only reason for it’s major profits was due to the majority of ppl selling snowflakes at low prices not knowing what they could produce for jewel crafters at 400. But seriously, out of all things to perma ban for, this? I think a total account strip is so much better. However, as it stands, basically you lost $60 and TIME. which is more valuable than anything for doing something that profited virtual game money which imo shouldn’t matter that much in a game where you can get most anything decent without trying. I just find this very wrong.

wildcode.5403:

While there are legitimate ways to make money in the game, if a player finds a more profitable way, the onus is on then to find out if it is an exploit or not. In the case of the snow flake jewels, those familiar with crafting knew there was something wrong with the recipe. And those who saw a quick buck are now banned.

Right, but you don’t get my point. I don’t care if it’s a 1 year ban for all I care. But a permanent ban is kinda harsh. They denied all of your work into the character. A total strip of their account stuff is better than a permanent ban.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/15uwja/fyi_mass_bans_were_handed_out_today_for_those_who/

fyi, if no one checks reddit.

3 ectos is what I’m reading on most posts…

From what I understand precursor >>>> 3 ectos, oh yeah but the godskull exploiters were fine? Not cool.

But regardless, how could anybody freaking know that the intensity of the exploit was a perma ban? Maybe if you let the players know or acted sooner/told ppl who were asking about it in the FORUMS, people would’ve stopped. I didn’t get banned because I’m not much of a crafter, but I can’t play with a friend anymore because someone is bad at programming/no one can answer questions or announce things well in forums. I can understand a temp ban for maybe a month. But a permanent ban?? Seriously, that’s like giving someone who profited too much money off a “backdoor” the death penalty because he took advantage of it.

Yes, because cities/dungeons retain your actual level.

A way of knowing how many people are there/where they are fighting.

Guardians

Cons
Low hp

Pros
A lot of options in defense aka reflecting projectiles, absorbing projectiles, blocking, healing
Can be very offensive while being defensive
Assest to team members due to our skills applying to everyone around you (not only just you)

Rangers
Pro
Can pew pew
Interesting style (haven’t played too much)
Pets can tank damage for a bit
Search & Rescue is super good with reviving ppl

Cons
Reading their forums, they are slowly improving but far from what they should be in potential
Also, your pet has a stupid AI

I like your ideas! Seriously, they should have something like this; it would make PvP more fun imo and sociable.

Was wondering if we could insert another option in PvP. I call it Colliseum, where we can pit against other people 1v1 BUT many players can go to the seating areas and watch the fights giving it a more lively atmosphere. Maybe use black citadel and allow us to fight against people form our current warring servers?

Edit: maybe not even 1v1, any spectating event where we can watch ppl compete live (not in camera mode) but as a real audience.

gw2lfg.com seriously, it saves a lot of time.