Guild Wars 2

Coulter.2315:

Do you really believe that there is very little difference between a 1sec cast and a 3sec cast??

In the space of 3sec trying to stop the stomp you can strip stab and rupt, perform a stealth blast combo, burst the stomper, run in and save the down’d person from offpoint.

If you’re stomping you need to burn CDs to cover you for the 3secs, perform teleport/los moves to be safe, keep poison up and CC their allies, interupt res banners etc.

All this gameplay BECAUSE its a long time, dropping it to 1sec means all of this gets removed. Not good for the game, bad idea.

See what I’m saying is I can do all those things to a shorter cast time (i.e heal) and so can many other players. All of those mechanics would still be present.

Justine.6351:

Yeah could use some normalizing, maybe:
-you gain 3sec of reveal for every second you were in stealth.

That would be……interesting. Maybe even Reveal = how long you were in stealth period would be neat, too.

Haleydawn.3764:

Arkitech.9158:

Haleydawn.3764:

Disagree with OP and here’s why.

A lot of you are just thinking about the ress time of the downed player, what about utility/elite skills that revive them? They would need shorter cast times too.
Downed state abilities would need a rework to add counter play to it too, some need a rework anyway. Reducing the stomp cast time would be chaos and you may aswell remove downed state from the game

Edit: In response to your suggestion to just remove it, that seems counter to your argument. As removing it would mean rebalancing or removing all of those things you mentioned. Rebalancing a shorter stomp would probably be just as difficult as removing it entirely.

That was sarcasm and clearly so in how I wrote it.

The whole point of downed state is supposed to be slow, you’re bleeding out needing help, 3 seconds for a stomp is not much really, you can still stomp people in those 3 seconds, reducing it makes it meaningless.

You see, I hear you saying that it’s pointless, but I don’t hear any reasoning behind it. I’ve already stated several reasons why it wouldn’t be pointless. For the sake on convenience I will restate them. Most healing skills, which have very obvious and considerably long animations, can be interrupted on reaction. A shorter stomp with a similar cast and animation would make sense in terms of counterplay and usefulness, if, everything else involving down state is balanced around it(down state health, resurrection utilities, down state abilities, etc.).
The amount of play and counterplay remains roughly the same, although to be truly sure it would have to be tested. The difference is you just have to do the play faster, which would make sense in gw2 seeing as everything in gw2 is faster.

3 seconds is a long time in this game.
People live and die in 3 seconds in Guild Wars 2.

TheDuck.4526:

Agree wholeheartedly. Making the downed state / rally system more “clutch” would certainly help the flow of PvP. Right now, combat on your feet is incredibly fast-paced and high-octane. But when downed-state stuff starts happening… combat slows to a crawl.

Not to mention the amount of frustration that takes place when you’ve downed 2 people solo— how many interrupts, teleports, stealths, etc. you have to get through to finish off two people who are just laying on the ground and bleeding out. It’s just such a long process. Doesn’t match the pace of normal combat. Especially in those awkward team situations when everyone is mashing their swords into one person’s face, desperately trying to cleave them down while their teammates are by their side stroking their leg as their health bar bounces back and forth. A quick pickup or a swift finish would be much more smooth, IMO.

Couldn’t have worded it better myself. Excellent points and exactly what I mean. Down state does not feel like it matches the pace of the rest of the combat in gw2.

Haleydawn.3764:

Disagree with OP and here’s why.

A lot of you are just thinking about the ress time of the downed player, what about utility/elite skills that revive them? They would need shorter cast times too.
Downed state abilities would need a rework to add counter play to it too, some need a rework anyway. Reducing the stomp cast time would be chaos and you may aswell remove downed state from the game.

Realistically it’s not a huge amount of balance. Although it’s true a lot of things that center around the down state would have to be rebalanced, these sweeping balance changes to a single mechanic is totally something Anet would do, have done, and are doing.

Edit: In response to your suggestion to just remove it, that seems counter to your argument. As removing it would mean rebalancing or removing all of those things you mentioned. Rebalancing a shorter stomp would probably be just as difficult as removing it entirely.

Maugetarr.6823:

DeceiverX.8361:

Cyhann.2609:

Fun fact (iirc):
The change was actually brought in for WvW as a counter measure of culling problems the game had with stealth in there, which resulted in fewinvisible frames for thieves even after reveal.

I guess it stayed in spvp because the devs didn’t like to redo their current change in balance that quickly since the culling problem was solved soon after that.
You know pride ’n stuff.

It was never 4s in WvW, or if it was, it didn’t last beyond a patch cycle. I do believe it was done as a balance change for sPvP as the meta back when it was implemented was focused heavily on hyper-aggressive DPS from all classes, and stealth-based builds were just too strong with too few windows to attack them. At release, the revealed condition didn’t even exist, so stealth classes could repeatedly attack from stealth or re-gain it before it expired. This early change was just experimental I believe.

I’d argue at this point the duration could absolutely be changed to 3s, but it’d need some monitoring and might need revisiting with future changes to the sPvP meta.

It was in PvE/WvW. Lots of thieves left and I don’t think it even lasted two weeks.

This is true. I actually took a break for a month or so because of this change. Felt I was too used to the old system to comfortably play and wasn’t having fun. Now, since it is split, I mostly only WvW.

I do agree though of course. All changes should be monitored after they’re released. Unsplitting it would definitely help take down the wall that keeps a lot of thieves out of sPvP. Is that good? I think so.

ChoChoBo.6503:

They should just remove the rally system altogether. It is broken.

I disagree. If you would like to discuss why you think it’s broken and how that can be fixed then you’re in the right place though. As I said i actually enjoy the mechanic though and like the play/counterplay it brings to the game.

Curunen.8729:

The bright orb is “magic” and I like the effect.

I also like the current animations and feel they are just right – gives a chance for ressing/interrupting and so on…

Why would a shorter cast on stomp and rez change that? Currently with long cast time’s like on most heals, you can interrupt on reaction. Giving a stomp a similar cast as heal seems reasonable from my perspective.

Can we get Revealed time normalized in PvE and PvP?
Having it at 4 secs in sPvP is probably the main reason I can never stick with it. I can get used to it after a few games but having to go through that every time I hop into PvP is frustrating. I play WvW primarily and sPvP (casually) on the side, mainly because of this split.

I would of course prefer it to be 3 secs in both PvE and PvP for a few reasons but mainly because D/D becomes far inferior to other weapon sets with the 4 sec reveal. While most weapon sets on Thief do not suffer from the 4 sec reveal. Sword auto chain and d/p auto chain + blinding powder both equal almost exactly 4 seconds, making getting a feel for the comboes with those weapons feel pretty smooth at 4 seconds. Dagger auto chain + cloak and dagger takes almost exactly 3 second, making the 3 second reveal feel natural and causing it to feel very strange when it changes to 4 seconds in sPvP.

Also the main reason the thread is a question is because many things were normalized during the HoT balance changes. I’m not sure if everything was, but a lot of things at lease. I’m curious if this can join them.

http://strawpoll.me/4738561

tl;dr Set Reveal debuff in sPvP back to 3 seconds.

Mind you this would also mean it would take shorter to resurrect someone from the down state.

Coulter.2315:

Bad idea, the amount of play and counterplay that revolves around down’d players is very important to PvP.

Oh I agree completely, but the same amount of “play and counterplay” can exist within that shorter time. The plays may be different, but I feel it would be better overall. Although I have no real proof of that, besides the Gears of War series which is almost entirely unrelated to Guild Wars 2 so it’s a terrible reference.

The thing is I’m certain they have tested this before. Most likely before the game even came out, like in beta and stuff. Thing is the game has changed a lot, and is about to change much more. This is kinda why I brought this up now. Although I would have gladly loved to see these changes tested on live even in the current version of the game.

Just a suggestion to change the “FINISH THEM!!” in Guild Wars 2.

1. Shorten animation and channel time of stomp by a large amount. Making stomp take something closer to 1 second instead of the current ~3secs.

2.Lower the amount of health players have while downed to roughly 1/3rd of what it is currently.

To be brief, I love the idea of down state and what it does for the game. It’s super fun and interesting and makes for some really interesting gameplay decisions; however, the game seems fast paced enough (the TTK is low enough) that a shorter stomp time and lower downed health seems viable. Currently when you get downed you feel way too tanky. I honestly feel like I have way more health when I’m downed then when I’m alive. Although this may not be true, the fact that I feel tanky while I’m bleeding on the floor about to die doesn’t really feel right.

Either way this is just a suggestion, I remember you guys changing the down state health back in the day, and then promptly changed it back due to it making no one ever stomped, they would only dps downed players. Lowering the channel time on stomp at the same time would probably alleviate this issue.

Side note, changing the animation to look like and actual stomp would be really cool too. To compensate for the short cast, a shorter animation would be needed anyways. It would also make sense to stomp on a persons face to finish them. The bright orb thing is kinda weird and doesn’t make much sense either. If it does make sense it is never explained why.

Edit: Also note, this would also have to lower the time it would take to resurrect someone.

tl;dr Suggestion to shorten stomp channel time and health in down state

Another big thing here to keep in mind is that all three master slots in Shadow Arts are, arguably, quite useless (post patch).

The thing is this is currently an adept trait, its being moved to GM without any changes at all. I mean I’m going to run this trait no matter what, I think, but I can’t help but think that I’m going to constantly want to switch to Shadow Rejuvenation because it is so obviously better. It’s like the current state of a lot of traits, its flavorful and fun but it cannot compete with the other things in the slot. This seemed like something that ANet has been trying to get away from and this is why I am saying something. Especially considering the other traits in Shadow Arts Major and Adept right now. There is really only one good choice in all of those. Once again I thought this was something they are trying to get away from, but Shadow Arts seems to be suffering greatly in this regard in the current iteration of the new trait lines.

I mean, maybe not many people run 6 in SA but I tend to run Shadow Rejuvenation, Cloaked in Shadows, and Shadow’s Embrace. Little disappointing I can’t anymore. Main reason this is true is because of patience getting rolled into Shadow Rejuvenation. I mean I was thinking you could just run the Shadow Protector with Cloaked in Shadows but idk, Patience getting rolled into Shadow Rejuvenation just seems way too good to pass up. I guess we will see just figured I’d say something. Dagger offhand without blind on stealth has never been all that great though.

problems tend to happen when programming. you have NO IDEA how many issues we would face without EXTENSIVE QA testing they do internally. Trust me you don’t know the half of it.

I’m honestly a little upset that EU gets to have fun with a funny bug and we don’t get to join in on the festivities! oh well, got all excited for nothin. Not a big deal anyways.

Ima go ahead and say this right now, the nerf to teleports is for LoS with on target teleports. So if you use steal and down have line of site “obstructed” the ability will not go off. The patch notes don’t say anything about range so no idea where you all got that idea. If you really want to know you should ask anyone who was at pax, the test client had the “nerf” in place and all those guys got to experience it first hand.

Just gunna throw this out there, signet BS thief used to be able to do ~17k in 1 backstab. It’s nerfed now so the max is like ~14k i believe, haven’t tested in a while. Tbh this kind of spike damage is normal if you all in invest into it. Idk why you are surprised.

Travlane.5948:

not gonna use it til evade is atleast 1/2 sec

Makes sense as flanking strike is 1/2 sec, but meh. Different skill, different mechanic, and Death Blossom doesn’t have a second part like flanking does. It’s obvious that with the way Thief works with initiative there has to be down time on the evade.

Yeah I like the idea of keeping the animation and evade time but speeding it up and increasing the range. Maybe make it a 1/4 sec evade with a 1/4 sec cast time. As it is now it’s a 1/2 sec cast with 1/4 sec evade with an after cast. Think it would really neat if it were fast like Whirlwind and maybe add a bit more power damage. Really the utility is what it’s for though so damage would just be icing on the cake. But yeah, faster cast, longer range. Being able to aim it would be neat.

As it is Death Blossom is like a mini Whirlwind Attack on warrior greatsword. Think it would be cooler if it were a bit more like Whirlwind.

Still wish they would improve the dodge though.

Dahkeus.8243:

Arkitech.9158:

Actually been getting really good at using Death Blossom in my regular rotation with the latest buff to ini regen. Kinda annoying how it only dodges for half the animation but meh, It’s actually an effective move in a rotation now. =D

Yea, I’ve found the same. It’s a very niche skill, but it’s a helpful extra evade that does a decent AoE that helps against things like mesmer clones.

Yeah exactly, its particularly useful against mesmer clones. And having to dodge while immobilized.

2 months later, still want to hear peoples opinions on this subject (more people). No one seems very apposed to the idea, besides the ability to possibly stack on hit things which probably wouldn’t be an issue, but the lack of responses is a bit upsetting. I feel like a lot of people would like something like this.

Actually been getting really good at using Death Blossom in my regular rotation with the latest buff to ini regen. Kinda annoying how it only dodges for half the animation but meh, It’s actually an effective move in a rotation now. =D

meh, That theoretical stuff is all well and good, I this.
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.5p.h15.8.5p.h19.d13.0.d13|c.5p.h1m.0.0.0.d13.0.0|5p.7i.5p.7i.5p.7i.5p.7i.5p.7i.5p.7i.0.0.0.0.0.0|2v.d13.2v.d13.3v.d19.2v.d13.3v.d17.2v.d13|a3.u28c.u46b.0.0|54.1|57.5f.5h.5b.5u|e

It preforms plenty well and has much lower theoretical values. Although with might uptime and the lack of calculation on Hidden Killer on both your build and mine and anyone else kinda makes those numbers inaccurate.

Also would be neat if something like this would also add to stealing from engineer turrets and other objects like them. Could you imagine stealing from a turret and getting its activated ability? Or even getting an ability that disabled the turret, or maybe even both! Like stealing from a turret disables it for a second and gives you the activated ability as the stolen ability. Pesky supply crate, I steal your net and use it on your pesky engi master MUAHAHAHA. Ahem, may have gotten a bit carried away there.
At least it wouldn’t be like the annoying steal from engi’s themselves and how it reveals you, I mean I have gotten used to it for the most part and still put it to good use most the time but it’s still annoying. =P

What Anet is doing, and constantly keeps doing, is just nerfing thieves to the point that the only choice is to play as passively as possible. To make the safest build possible. There is no encouragement to be aggressive, even though, at the end of the day, the thieves people complain about are the passive ones that play as safe as possible. When you fight an aggressive thief, it’s fun and engaging. You really feel like you worked for the win or they worked for the win. When they just just stealth > fail > repeat until win or decide to run, people get mad. Losing feels like you got cheated. No one has fun, the thief himself usually doesn’t want to have to resort to such mechanics honestly, but they have to. There is no other choice. Dodge survival build S/D? Pretty much a distant memory. Aggressive D/D builds? Why bother, D/P has far more useful abilities overall. (this is coming from a dedicated D/D thief, I refuse to live in the D/P pigeon hole that’s being made for me). Even then P/D pistol condi, played as passively and safe as possible it is at it’s strongest. Promote aggressive play. I still feel like the Infiltrator Return nerf is the most pointless idiodic nerf to ever happen to any class. It’s completely baseless and honestly unfair.

Well when you steal to an object like siege you get nothing, so it would be interesting if you stole from a siege weapon and got a stolen ability that could disable siege. Maybe even give it a utility against players as well so it wouldn’t be an ability you could only use on siege. Ground targeted disable siege for X amount of time would be a neat stolen ability from siege though.

so i just realized i forgot to add a 1 this entire time…..
max damage on full zerker ranger with exotic gear and no points in toughness tree = 20171 with 5 stacks of might.

perhaps he was naked? or wearing rares or an up level. all sorts of stuff. glass rangers are quite glassy also.

I’m on TC, should happen eventually. Not planning on transferring any time soon. =P

UGH I wanna get matched with BG already. wanna duel so many people on that durn server.

Hey I run that too Thief

Doggie.3184:

Arkitech.9158:

By the way, they got the suggestion for this change from a top play. A top Guardian player….. Just a heads up. Kensuda, thanks for suggesting such a pointless nerf. Still can’t believe it actually went through.

Well, they can’t let Guardian players go unhappy now can they?
I’ll remember this name as my most disliked in gaming then.

He is honestly a really good player and a solid member of the community. Pretty sure the suggestion was a joke at first. That’s why I can’t believe it went through. Cool dude, but the fact that he suggested such a nerf still kitten es me off.

What thunder said. Also the build in my sig is what I run in spvp and I use d/d. Its pretty good. You can always switch in more damage easily.

You should see his responses to threads. Comic gold. I think he takes himself seriously is the best part.

By the way, they got the suggestion for this change from a top play. A top Guardian player….. Just a heads up. Kensuda, thanks for suggesting such a pointless nerf. Still can’t believe it actually went through.

That is a pretty big nut shell. I spy a few things in there that are a bit ill advised, don’t feel like pointing them out but overall interesting. Should prolly rename to “A beginners guide to thieves by Bazoonga/a beginner”. Seems also rather biased/generalized. instead of discussing options you simply state “this is best” which is just begging for an argument, lots of people would disagree with there being a “best”.

I can pretty regularly keep far point decapped even with 2 people trying to take it back. If 3 show up I can easily play some mind games and get out to help the team fight or home point while 3 people sit around worrying about their home. Idk maybe its sub optimal for what people think thieves should be doing, but it does the job well. Lots of people underestimate how much damage you can keep while having sustain, and it not hard to kill someone then full cap, stealth or not you aren’t gunna cap a point when you are fighting someone on it, at least not as a thief.

its a personal preference. not for everyone but it works, and puts out good pressure. yeah I switch in shortbow sometimes, just depends. Heartseeker moves just as fast as shortbow ini for mobility wise, except for shortbow shortcuts of course.

It’s strong and it’s my playstyle. I play very aggressively so I can harass far point effectively keeping it de-capped until I kill my opponent. You are correct in assuming its good for solo queue, it’s what I mainly use it for. Also in a team fight, Thief shouldn’t be fighting on the point anyways unless they are stealthed. Thieves major strength in sPvP is mobility, able to back cap or get to a point before others and quickly return to the team fight when needed. It also has a good balance of defense and offence allowing me to be more aggressive than most thieves. Being more proactive in fights and actually being able to res in refuge and what not.

WvW build

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c;4Rw-1-N5FOFd0;9;49TT;02;017B53A;4Jom6;2ytbUytbUh-FTV6k2;2VhVlWqXv2147a2i-HV1a;5F2Coc2Cu;9;9;9;9;8E-6g

mostly for personal reference. If you have questions or want to know anything about the build or have comments about the build aside from “it’s trash” feel free to post.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c33F;1Rw-1-N5FOFd0;9;49TT;02;015B53A;4Jwl6;2KJG4KJG44RU

valk is generally more valuable with food buffs being based on vit and toughy. at least with hidden killer. zerker with executioner is fine too, but less reliable in almost all situations.

calculating max damage isn’t that hard. as you can see from my post, without guard buffs on the build I posted a max damage backstab is roughly 13,338 on a target with his armor. Again, this is with exotic armor, ascended trinkets, and no guard buffs. If you are curious as to why valk armor over zerker, more health = more power with food, so if you can get more health or armor without sacrificing power, crit damage, or damage modifiers, you should. The formula is basically

S = Skill Coefficient
W = Weapon Strength
P = Power
A = Armor
M = Damage Modifiers
V = Vulnerability Stacks
C = Critical Damage

{include whats in these brackets only assuming its a crit}
((S*W*P)/(A))*(((M+V) +1) ((C +50) +1)/100) +1)

So, lets take the build.
((2.405*1030*4516)/(2830)) * ((( 118 + 50 )/ 100 ) + 1 ) * ((( 60 + 3 )/ 100 ) + 1 ) = 17268

now lets add bloodlust and guard leech, 350 more power, and another 10 power from applied fortitude with sharpening stones.

((2.405*1030*4876)/(2830)) * ((( 118 + 50 )/ 100 ) + 1 ) * ((( 60+3 )/100 ) + 1 ) = 18644

Edit: forgot to add a 1 to the damage multiplier formula. fixed and variables adjusted. numbers are all right now.
also note that i have been testing and I seem to be missing something. the calculation tends to be 3-10% off. Not sure what I’m missing though.

bump cause this nerf needs more negative attention. =]

Yski doesn’t use the max damage version of the build. he makes some compromises. personal preference sort of thing.

Edit: Nvm thats his second video which has very close to the max damage version. less reliable though.

also forgot to calculate in guard stacks…

crap I forgot to use valk weapons to make the power higher from food. ugh, recalculating.

edit: Okay its just a 5 power difference, nvm not going through the trouble.
linking version with valk weapons for future reference.
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c;4ZwV0-N5V-Fd0;9;4OT;0E28-17B;43;0Lwl35;1udbTudbTt-FwV6s0T;1VhVlWqXv214752kVJV2q;5F2Cok2Cw;9;9;9;9;7VR-6u

this gives you 15k health with the same said damage. and enough ini to heartseeker away for the escape if you ever fail to land the combo.