Guild Wars 2

Manasa Devi.7958:

mtpelion.4562:

If you were there at the beginning of the Boss Blitz, then you should be in one of the fighting groups.

If you arrived late and asked if any groups needed help and they don’t, run to a boss, hit it, then go do something else.

When people keep pulling others into a ‘gold pavilion’ until it’s hardcapped, there will be too many players. The system relies on people being afk at the center, or doing the gauntlet. In ‘gold pavilions’ that people are actively keeping hardcapped, sometimes not enough people are afk. It’s impossible to arrive late, unless you were one of the afk people.

The problem with this content is that the event doesn’t keep everyone who’s playing it occupied, and if people decide to occupy themselves by helping out somewhere, stuff starts going south. Expecting people to actively not do anything, even get near a boss they’re not supposed to, for kitten’s sake, that’s terrible. It’s really just very, very badly designed, which is quite surprising, after they figured out how to make things work with the color pool buffs at Scarlet’s knight events.

I agree. There’s really no excuse for this bad a design for this type of event at this point. They’ve done it before successfully and all they needed to do was add something in the UI to help. Tons of decent to very good suggestions have been made in this forum so far. Implementing any of them would have been a significant improvement.

Hitting the hardcap appears to be relatively easy for an organized instance. Tried about 20 times to taxi into gold instance recently and never got in. Probably should have just continued to spam trying to get in since it seems like a major portion of this event when done “correctly” involves hanging out doing nothing. /sarcasm

Velimere.7685:

¿Que?

…I couldn’t help myself!

OP – you meant “queue” – probably one of the most misspelled words in the English language . . .

Agree with the OP on this. I just tried about 20 times to get taxied into a successful, organized instance. No luck. I probably won’t bother to try again – not unless they change how they are implementing this event over the next month plus it will apparently last (assuming they run it up to the start of season 2).

Another thing about them that threw me was that the stations require a crafting skill of 425. Crafting Bloodstone Bricks and Deldrimor Steel Ingots requires a crafting skill of 450. This is the only example I can think of that requires less crafting skill to craft the item than to craft the item’s components. There is absolutely no reason to think that a crafting skill 425 item would require ascended materials . . . that you could not craft if you were less than crafting skill 450.

I saw the Station Recipes for sale at the festival vender and thought “sure why not, might come in handy for maybe a guild challenge or Teq or the 3 Wurms.” Also those were the only things that did not have. So I bought two of them (the Stone Station and the Oil Station). Figured the recipe would be something involving T5 or T6 materials. I just looked at the recipes:

Sharpening Stone Station:
1 Bloodstone Brick
30 Crystalline Dust
5 Deldrimor Steel Ingots

Maintenance Oil Station:
1 Bloodstone brick
30 Crystalline Dust
5 Elonian Leather Squares

The boost is the equivalent of a master level bonus for that type of item (Sharpening Stone or Maintenance Oil) that lasts 1 hour and the station sticks around for 5 whole minutes.

Wow . . . just wow.

I don’t know how to ask this any more gently: Were you under the influence when you thought this up? Are you serious ANet? Are you trolling your player base with this? You are aware that is at least 17.5-25 gold worth of time-gated materials right?

I’d like my 1600 tokens back to spend on level-up scrolls for one of my alts.

Can I get a refund? Feel free to remove the recipes from my account since I cannot imagine being so wealthy in game that I will ever use them . . .

Just hit it a bit solo and its definitely bugged. I used to kill it solo frequently and relatively quickly with my thief and now I barely make a dent in it and it hits harder. It seems like a champ (or legendary?) now.

Also stuck at 9/10 – looked through Dulfy’s guide and rechecked most of them (not #5) none of them functioning.

Vesuvius.9874:

Dusty Moon.4382:

They read the forums but probably only for objective criticisms, not the ‘Bye GW2’ threads

This^ They’ve also stated that pretty clearly that if people want themselves heard, stop QQing and start providing constructive criticism. They didn’t become a multi-million dollar company by making their player base miserable. The fact that this game exists means they’re doing something right.

If people want things they’d like to see in game, they need to listen to what ANET is saying (about constructive feedback). It’s only fair that they will listen to you then.

There has been tons of constructive criticism – it just does not seem to be heard which leads to people feeling ignored which builds frustration and that leads to less civility from the player base.

This change is a typical example of ANet half hearing what the players are saying on these forums and ignoring the uncomfortable and difficult to hear stuff. The loot is NOW where it should be. You should have always been getting a minimum six loot bags for killing 6 champion bosses, and the add-on tokens are appropriate but nothing great by any means (one simple event in the Bazaar yields 40+ tokens). What is missing still is an appropriate UI for this event. The game’s existing tools are totally inadequate – if you try and use the very limited in game tools (map chat, say chat) you can very well find yourself suppressed by the game. Many people have made smart suggestions what sort of improvements are needed to help a Megaserver full of strangers complete this event at the gold level with some reasonable consistency. Where are those improvements? Stop kissing ANet’s “feet” – they have done the single easiest to implement change. Like the recent to change how some of the traits earned it was a good first step but they need to do more. They may stop making changes now and say “All good and done!” but they are sure as hell not finished in my opinion. I’ve been to the Pavilion recently and saw maybe 40 people not doing the Gauntlet – horrible given the Megaserver. It could well be that the event really isn’t even salvageable at this point.

As for this game and how well its doing: I’ve played since launch. Soon after I joined a guild that has since been largely abandoned. I’ve not left that guild but rather simply joined other guilds since then. Occasionally I look at the roster to see who is online from the old guild. Of the 76 members of that guild still listed I have not, for many many months seen more than 2 people online (myself and maybe one other). Everyone else is listed as last online “Unknown.” By my calculations that means GW2 in this case, has had about a 2.5% retention rate. That just doesn’t seem something to brag about . . .

Maybe this will help: ANet, please take my money . . I WANT to pay for an expansion.

The new trait system, as other have noted, is a very poorly implemented excellent idea. In my opinion it is also the most worrisome part of the recent update. The system is much harder on new players than established players and creates a “barrier to entry” that is likely to result in fewer new players staying with the game over time. To thrive, every MMO needs a constant, healthy supply of new players to replace those who (inevitably) leave the game.

First Suggestion: Get rid of the unnecessary and unwarranted delay in attaining traits. Delaying them an additional 10 levels was completely unnecessary and did not improve game play at all. In fact you went the exact opposite direction you should have gone. Players should begin earning trait points every 5 levels after level 10. They should have an incentive to hunt for traits and see the attainment of traits as part of developing the character. Backloading/delaying the availability of traits until well into the game makes that portion of the game more onerous than it should be.

Second Suggestion: Traits should be separately earnable within both PvE and WvW (I am assuming PvP character have access to all traits, if not they should). I think your community thought the message about not forcing them to play styles they did not like had penetrated – apparently not well enough. Anet should move the WvW obtained traits into PvE and open up a CDI with the WvW community focusing on how players who focus on that area of the game can earn the traits by playing WvW.

Third Suggestion: The biggest issue with earning the traits (as opposed to buying them) is clearly with the adept level traits. The work needed to unlock a trait should be appropriate to the level of the character that would be using the trait. This is all too often not the case. Also, all three trait tiers need variety in how the traits are earned. ANet should open up a CDI for each of the races and/or classes that focuses on PvE and solicit suggestions for different methods for each race and/or class to earn each of the traits.

Fourth Suggestion: You missed an opportunity to add build diversity with the update. There is no good reason to have mandatory traits. There never has been. There are no mandatory skills. There should be no mandatory traits. The basic level traits at each tier (Adept, Master and Grandmaster) should be simply another option to choose from. So, for example: the 16 total traits would become available in two sets (Basic, Advanced) in each of three tiers: Adept – Basic #1-4; Adept – Advanced #1-7; Master – Basic #1-10, Master – Advanced #1-12, Grandmaster – Basic #1-14; Grandmaster – Advanced #1-16. As part of the CDI in Suggestion #2 ANet should solicit community feedback on the rank/number/order of the traits as well. ANet has consistently failed to acknowledge some of their traits are extraordinarily underwhelming or simply completely outclassed by other options, and while they will have to pull the wheat from the chaff, here’s a hint – players asserting that “Executioner” is an Adept – Basic trait are trolling, those that think “Hard to Catch” is a Adept – Basic or Adept – Advanced trait are not.

Fifth Suggestion: Do not allow players to buy traits. If you have a sane, reasonable trait reward system that does not mix PvE and WvW you do not need, nor should you have a short cut system. You don’t allow players to buy skill points or levels, don’t allow them to buy traits. Earning traits becomes part of the process of learning how to play your profession. BTW: Those who think buying the traits is a gold sink are right to some extent, however, it seems to me more of a skill point sink.

Ran into this issue tonight while trying to complete a guild puzzle. Had people on two different servers and didn’t realize it until almost too late. Caused confusion because we all thought we were on the same server since as Anet has previously indicated we should have all been on the same server. On top of that we had one guild in the puzzle when we arrived and at least three more guilds show up as we were waiting. Everyone went at once and while it was confused we did manage to complete it. Anet should consider making these events instanced.

Both characters armor infusions are gone.

So . . . all of the infusions I added to my thief’s ascended armor are gone. I bought those at the laurel vender since I don’t do fractals so they are just the 5 pt versions, but I would like a refund for the laurels or to have them replaced. All of the other infusions on the weapons and trinkets all still there. I have one other character with ascended and infused armor that I have not checked yet.

This is the task Anet has set itself up for: Balancing classes to make them viable, fun and enjoyable to play when at the core they are fundamentally, deeply imbalanced.

The level 80 Warrior has the highest/best base health (18372) and armor (1271) in the game. Health and Armor can be translated into the attributes of Vitality and Toughness (10 points of Health and Armor per point of Vitality and Toughness). Vitality and Toughness are the two primary defensive attributes in the game. In terms of attribute/trait points this means the Warrior starts with a clear attribute/trait advantage against all others. The level 80 Warrior has, in comparison to level 80:

• Light Armor Classes: +30.4 more attribute/trait points from Armor (calculated based on a full set of Ascended Armor).
• Low Health Classes: +756.7 more attribute/trait points from base Health.
• Medium Armor Classes: +15.3 more attribute/trait points from Armor (calculated based on a full set of Ascended Armor).
• Medium Health Classes: +329 more attribute/trait points from base Health.

So this means the other classes effectively have the following attribute/trait point deficits in relation to the Warrior:

• Elementalist: 787.1 attribute/trait points
• Thief: 772 attribute/trait points
• Guardian: 756.7 attribute/trait points
• Mesmer: 359.4 attribute/trait points
• Engineer: 344.3 attribute/trait points
• Ranger: 344.3 attribute/trait points
• Necromancer: 30.4 attribute/trait points

Warriors do not have flexibility in spending those additional attribute points they all have, but they are important almost universally beneficial attributes (exception being toughness vs. condition damage). This imbalance simply makes it very difficult to have credible discussion about class fairness and balance concerning traits, weapon skills, healing skills, utility skills and class mechanics. Anet need to take one or two of their fingers off the scale in favor of Warriors and a good place to start would be by addressing this imbalance by moving those classes up toward the Warrior.

Impact.2780:

scabrous.7835:

Put me right if I’m wrong but somebody did the maths of old ini+traits vs new ini+traits and it came out that we actually have lower rate of overall recharge.

They calculated for opportunist being a constant, when in reality you’re not always attacking. Certainly in PvP, time spent evading or in stealth is time in which you’d gain more initiative from the increased regeneration rate and gain no benefit from opportunist.

I did the math that way true enough. However, for me since I play just PvE I in fact could and still do attack almost constantly using Signet of Malice for healing. My “disengaging” typically consisted of backing off and spamming Unload. Seriously though,net of the nerf’s Anet’s “massive” buff came to about 3-5 extra initiative per minute. I had to stay traited the same as before to receive any real buff to initiative. The only thing I notice is it is slightly easier now to run D/D since I can C&D maybe once (at most twice) more per minute.

I was able to complete if first day by moving partway down on the right then sliding down to the pillar on the right to stop. With 50% falling damage reduction traited a a lvl 80 thief I made it but still took considerable damage.

Can also confirm the change in falling damage and the graphics bug on entry.

Daggerstorm first. Thieves Guild second choice. Both very good elites.

Karolis.4261:

There is no need for more conditions clearing for general pve then you get from signet of agility. And there is no advantage of stealth in pve besides skipping stuff.

Most general PvE this is true. However, I’ve found the latest temp content to be much heavier on conditions that the rest of the game. Been the trend for some time now. And they are annoying conditions that most of the “class B” condition removal thieves have won’t cleanse (examples: torment, confusion). Not necessarily a problem even then until multiple mobs start stacking them on you – which will happen if you play aggressively. Signet of agility really isn’t enough by itself, and if you don’t use a sword its either Shadow Step/Return or removal on stealth.

1) D/D and P/P
2) 0/30/20/20/0
3) PvE

StinVec.3621:

Arrow.4619:

Why delete it? Just use it then never use the finisher if you don’t want to.

Also, Arrow, if you have the permanent vigil megalaser finisher then you cannot activate the limited-use one to get rid of it. And since it couldn’t be delete due to this naming issue then players are stuck with it permanently taking up an inventory slot.

Considered that but it didn’t seem likely or logical. Wouldn’t you use the limited use finisher to find out whether you wanted it before buying it? The limited use finishers stack so if you have multiples there is no reason not to use them all when you get them. I suppose it is possible someone saw someone else using it and decided they had to have it . . .

Why delete it? Just use it then never use the finisher if you don’t want to.

Took me awhile to realize the sunken Dwarven ruins in Mt. Maelstrom were the ruins of Droknar’s Forge. I finally realized it when I remembered the shrine to Grenth in Lornar’s Pass in GW 1 and found that shrine again recently in GW2. Also, it looks like what is now Lornar’s Pass is a combination of Lornar’s Pass + Dreadnaught’s Drift since the statue of Dwayna is also in GW2’s Lornar’s Pass. Which means the unexplored mountinous area south of Lornar’s Pass is Snake Dance.

I remember purchasing a run or two to Droks . . .

So lagging so bad on TC right now that I just watched the last 5 minutes of Shatterer pass without attacking once or seeing anyone else move. No disconnect yet but hideous lag.

If I remember correctly my calcs I lost about 12-15 initiative per minutes to the nerfs (opportunist, the signet and the acrobatics line nerf) and gained 15 initiative to the baseline initiative regen buff. I know I’m somewhat the exception but . . . not a “MASSIVE” buff for some.

Very well said, thoughtfully presented and about 100% correct.

Sir Morgan Malory.2069:

They want to merge PvP and PvE skills because they consider WvW and PvP endgame. Static nature of PvP keeps it fresh than PvE which cost more money to keep adding new content. They want the PvErs to transition over to PvP to keep them in the game. They really should be concentrating on having PvP fun if they want people to start PvPing.

If what you indicate is so, they made a fundamental “thinking error” and they should reconsider. WvW/PvP attracts a relatively small portion of the player base relative to the PvE. Thinking that the entire player base is going to happily transition from cooperative open world play to competitive PvP or an open world PvP gank fest is questionable on its face. Sounds like the intent was to keep people playing “on the cheap” and lower their overall development costs (i.e., over 16 months into the game and no significant expansion).

When you say “static” what I think you mean is “dynamic” and if so I have to disagree. The entire game is “static” except for the living world (like it or hate it). PvP/WvWers might disagree but really, is fighting endlessly over the same patch of ewasteland week in and week out really that much more “dynamic” than running Arah for the 10th time or level 30+ fractal for the 50th time? The only difference is that it varies in the level of “challenge” but that is not the same thing as “changing or energetic or new and interesting.” “Challenging” will keep some players engaged, “new and interesting changes” will keep a lot more.

OP got it completely correct IMO. However . . . this but this is one of those “everyone understands Anet is messing this up so why don’t they fix this?” threads. The reality is that they will likely never fix it. Probably due to a combination of money (it would cost them significant time and resources) and hubris (one part “were not like other mmo’s” and one part someone having to admit NOT doing this in the first place was a mistake).

Very unfortunate because its probably the one thing they need to do more than anything else to help this game’s viability in the long term.

DeWolfe.2174:

Wow, thieves coming in to defend the class and say it’s all fine. Surely no one saw that coming….

Wow . . . bunch of people who never played a thief and never bothered to learn how to counter stealth wailing for a nerf to stealth.

Unfortunately . . . every thief player saw that one coming.

BrunoBRS.5178:

what thief needs is a 50% damage reduction all across the board, no more stealth, no stun breaks, and perma-cripple.

am i doing it right?

Yes you are. I think this belongs on the Thief Nerf Wish list (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Nerf-Wish-list/page/5).

Ghostextechnica.3270:

I think this is bugged in some way.

I have an SSD so load in straight away, I dodge whatever mari does and stay unhit for the whole event, and finish the event (cut the chain) successfully, and nothing happens.

Many, many times.

All lanes.

All I’ve done over the past week is run Mari – and I still have none of these dodge achieves.

I agree. I’ve ran this event many times – enough times to collect enough fragments to open all 5 boxes on 5 different characters. I KNOW without a doubt that went several times successfully through the boss event, with the lane succeeding, without getting downed and without getting hit by Mari’s attacks and not gotten an achievement . . . on more than one boss.

Its bugged to hell and back.

Zero Day.2594:

Enenion.8127:

That’s not a bug, it’s a feature. Hard to Catch triggers on CC and Tow Line is a form of self-CCs. Now try it with Stability, which will cancel the effect of Tow Line but still trigger Hard to Catch because you targeted yourself with CC.

The fact that you can trigger an anti-stun trait yourself just goes to show exactly how bad they are.

Try with stability he says….

LOL

Well of course it will work perfectly with stability! What a brilliant idea! Now which skill was it that gave thieves stability . . . oh yeah . . . Dagger Storm! Err . . . .

reikken.4961:

that’s nothing short of hilarious

I’ve seen this request/post or another one very similar elsewhere and when I read it the first time I laughed so hard I cried. Pretty much sums up the thief experience . . at least sometimes. Whether any thief players recognize it or not apparently thieves are so OP with a spear gun they really only need 4 useful skills and not a full 5 . . .

I previously noted in my response to that other post and its worth repeating: Some anti-thief troll will inevitably intone in all seriousness “A great skill and a great trait that work great together” even though Hard to Catch and Tow Line are recognized throughout the thief community as entirely worthless.

Happened to me recently while in Arah exploration mode. Triggered I think by interacting with one of the cannons on the ship. Logged out and back in to fix the issue. Also, encountered the same bug at the Marionette event and I know others have as well.

1. PvE
2. Had a reason to check this recently – played a thief 1,829 hrs 39 minutes over the past 500 days.
3. Shorter. Certain content is simply too difficult for thieves as opposed to other classes to complete so I frequently use those classes. Same reward, less effort, more enjoyment (since I don’t spend as much time downed, dodging, moving in stealth or waiting in stealth and getting rezed).
4. No. The learning curve on a thief is steep. It requires constant attention and situational awareness to play one well. Changes made to the class over the past roughly 16-17 months have slowly eroded the classes effectiveness overall. That coupled with Anet’s recent trend toward heavy condition damage and higher damage content in PvE makes the thief a much poorer choice than it was a launch to tackle most of the newer PvE content. I would probably have started my second character well before reaching lvl 80 as thief and never looked back (even though my thief is my GW1 legacy character).
5. No. It took me some time to start playing additional classes, but once I did I came to understand that the thief didn’t start as a well balanced generally effective class and its treatment by the Anet balance team has only marginalized it further. I will put together a list of what I view as the specific balance issues for Thieves and post later.

@ Interceptor

Spare me. I’m a career Thief: been playing since beta, I have 700+ hours logged on just Thief alone, probably will have several hundred more in my future. Played every build except S/D (missed the meta when it was good), played every mode except sPvP.

I like this class, I think it’s in a good place. You and others are making silly arguments with made-up criteria.

Wow, a whole 700+ hours and you’re a “career Thief” eh? Let me check my thief. Hmmm it says:

You have played this character 1,829 hours, 39 minutes over the past 500 days.
Across all characters, you have played 2,928 hours 10 minutes over the past 500 days.

Not sure if I should mock you for being a scrub or myself for not having much of a life. Try again, and this time throw down something impressive (even if you have to make it up).

Well, sign up for his newsletter. But before that, tell me why it should be that way, a reason other than 1) you want it to be or 2) “fairness”.

Better question is: Why don’t you tell us why you find it acceptable that you have a class mechanic that can quite often amount as nothing more than a glorified shadow step gap closer useable at most twice a minute?

Not only do I think this is a poor metric to be judging things by, but I don’t even agree with you. Steal is better than people care to admit, and Virtues are not as good as people think that they are.

Fun fact: I play a Guardian. If you’ve ever wondered why I comment on every Thief vs. Guardian comparison, that’s why. Guards are not bursty in the same way that Thieves are, generally speaking.

Fun fact: So do I. Regarding you point on Guardians mobility and DPS I’m again unimpressed. Two of the other characters I play have roughly the same amount of in combat movement in two crucial areas: Actual movement in a combat situation (Asuran Greatsword/Scepter/Focus Guardian with Traveler Runes); and dodging (Human Longbow/Sword/Horn Ranger with all of 10 points in a trait that increases endurance regeneration and provides vigor on heal). Both characters readily shrug off conditions that would inhibit movement through passives. Really the only way my thief is significantly superior in movement to those characters is through shadow step (Steal, Infiltrators Signet, Shadow Step/Return). Would it surprise you to know that somehow I managed to make it through all this time without Stealing very often or using ever using Shadow Step/Return? Neither skill impress me for PvE play, probably never will. As for DPS I would have to say my Greatsword Guardian comes awfully close to my thief. Oh and here’s another “Fun fact” – Three virtues are clearly superior to one Steal.

In response to another post of yours:

You point about mobility as the key focus for the Thief class is underwhelming. If GW2 where a race or a gymnastics competition that would be really really cool for Thieves. Too bad GW2 is neither of those. Too bad too that they just nerfed vigor since you seem to think movement is so important. Must have annoyed you right when Anet did that? Or did you just “adjust” cause you’re in such a “good place”?

You point about “frontline fighters” is just silly. If your best damage is hand-to-hand, guess what: You are a “frontline” fighter if you want to do your best damage. Since you have absolutely no control over who decides to attack you (PvP) or necessarily how much aggro you will draw (PvE) you better be prepared to be a “frontline fighter” whether you think that term applies to you or not.

Interceptor.2653:

Arrow.4619:

And we pay for Steal by being tossed into the bottom rung in spite of our role as a hand-to-hand combatant?

This is nonsense. Guardians gave up health pool in trade for sustainability and damage mitigation. It’s a direct relationship: their overall tankiness on both end

Have to disagree: Its never time to stop making cross-class comparisons since those comparisons allow you to determine what the characteristics are for a reasonable class mechanic.

Then give some iota of a reason why class mechanics should be balanced against each other, other than the fact that you want them to be. Classes are balanced against each other.

No, I think you’re the one spouting nonsense here. What did the thief in your opinion get for “giving up” health? What “direct relationship” bonus did the thief get? Initiative is just a variation on cool downs – its primary bonus is to allows for more flexibility in attacks and generally more attacks (btw in case you haven’t noticed this is well balanced by generally having the attacks do less base damage than many other classes attacks). Stealth – you mean the same skill as Ranger’s and Mesmers have now (btw – both of which are mid-tier health wise). The skill of dubious benefit in many situations other than PvP. Oh, and Steal. What’s the “direct relationship” between Steal and having crap for health?

Don’t consciously mis-read me its annoying and ridiculous. First, they shouldn’t be balanced against one another they should be generally beneficial to the class in and of themselves on regular, reliable ongoing basis. Tell me exactly how does Steal meet that criteria? Why should one class have a class mechanic with dubious benefits when every other class gets a genuinely consistently, beneficial class mechanic? Simple fairness to the players of all classes would suggest it should.

@Interceptor

And we pay for Steal by being tossed into the bottom rung in spite of our role as a hand-to-hand combatant? Seems to me based on that analysis, Guardian’s got a good deal and Thieves got the fuzzy end of the lollypop.

Have to disagree: Its never time to stop making cross-class comparisons since those comparisons allow you to determine what the characteristics are for a reasonable class mechanic. Based on my experience with all but two of the classes, I would argue that a class mechanic should be reliable and generally beneficial in all (or very nearly all) cases since I’ve yet to see another class with a class mechanic that isn’t (don’t know the Engineer’s and Mesmer’s). Don’t see how those Steal can be described in those terms.

This is from just a PvE perspective:

No. Steal is in and of itself not much. It has all of the limitations previously mentioned, being subject to missing your target being the chief one. Second of course is not knowing what you will get. While I understand the PvP attitude/response of “since you know what class your stealing from you know what you will get,” that has no relevance in PvE. Go to the Slayer tab in your achievements pane – is it reasonable or realistic to expect anyone to know what “class” and of those targets are and therefore what you get from steal? I can see doing that for PvP but its just silly to think more than 1% of the thief players would be able to use it in a PvE situation with the same effectiveness. You get random c**p that may or may not be helpful. I’ve considered traiting to get mug, but again, given its basic unreliability (by missing your target for instance) decided against it.

I can give you three examples of other profession mechanics that I know from first hand experience are clearly, unambiguously superior: Guardian, Ranger and Necromancer.

Guardian: I do trait somewhat in the professional mechanic and I’ve found those points a very sound investment. The first (Virtue of Justice) I use almost constant damage buff (required 20 points spent in Radiance), and the second and third (Virtue of Resolve and Virtual of Courage) I’ve used countless times to stay up and fighting. With just a 5 point investment in Virtues I get three additional boons on activation. The Renewed Focus elite allows you to use all of those class mechanics at least twice in every fight no matter the target. Given my experience with this class mechanic I believe I would still use if them more, and more effectively even without any trait point contribution than I do Steal now.

Ranger: Only traited about 10 points in the profession mechanic and with for those 10 points I get an effective PvE meat shield/tank/rez helper. Universally useful. The pet is what allows the Ranger class to solo champions even at relatively low levels.

Necromancer: Absolutely no points in this mechanic and its still more universally more useful than Steal. In fact I’d trade Steal for a similar “shadow form” health bar in a second.

I’d say for Steal to be anywhere close to as useful as all other mechanics I’ve used it should: 1) always hit (but never critical), 2) apply a condition to the target based on its class, and 3) give you short boon (5-10 seconds) based on the target’s class. Sort of like an improved version of Prayer to Lyssa.

That . . . is priceless my friend. I laughed so hard I cried. I’m sure all thief trolls will declare it “Two great thief abilities that work just great together!” Pretty well sums up the state of the thief class.

Viking Jorun.5413:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Arrow.4619:

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class.

Least played? lol Go to wvw and roam a bit. 50% of solo-ers are still thieves. (bs’ed numbers, but its not that far off from 50%)

Because thieves aren’t good at zerging, so they’re forced into roaming whether they like it or not. Every other class has some place inside of a zerg other than “blast finisher dump”.

Too bad he couldn’t be bothered to read the entire post. I believe I wrote something along the lines of:

Very good players will continue to play it but at some point even most of them will only play it in more limited ways and use it in only limited roles. As someone mention it makes a great harvesting character which deserves a “lol” in that the statement is so sad but true its not funny. Modestly skilled to good players will walk away from it in mass – in fact they already have.

First Point: Congratulations on having discovered the one thing the thief class is apparently good for as pretty much everything kittened up. The fact that solo roamers are often thieves doesn’t mean the class is played by a significantly large portion of the player base – rather that it is in fact played by a tiny minority of the player base at this point. Congratulations for making my point for me.

Second Point: So what if they are? What is it exactly the solo roamers do that is so terribly important or effective in the larger WvW scheme? I’ve done it and I know its fun but so what? I’d really like to understand why anyone thinks this important – to me its a lot like saying: Well there are 3 or 4 dungeons that the thief is really good in! Yeah, too bad the game is a little bigger than that . . .

@Impact:
You’re right this is is a troll thread since they are pretending something is in fact possible that isn’t.

It is fascinating the obsession with Stealth. To me, as a PvE player Stealth is at best a modestly useful ability in PvE encounters (saved me many times while I was learning this game) but I can easily see why its viewed as critical in PvP and also despised by others in PvP. I say “modestly” useful in PvE because it basically only grants a reprieve in which you can run away or reposition or heal. That last is assuming it is even wise – which it might not be if you are say using Signet or Malice – or doable which it wont be if your heal isn’t on CD. AOEs and “environmental” effects still smack you around just fine and channeled attacks (like a Ranger’s longbow #2 Sanduskal that start before you stealth track you just fine. Most importantly, when you are either in Stealth (or dodging for that matter) with a thief you are not damaging your opponent and therefore not progressing in the encounter. In team play you are probably doing nothing to help your team succeed either (unless as someone put it you are invisibly rezzing the downed Warriors). This again rolls back around to the single biggest problem I have with the thief class as a PvE player – nearly every nerf that has made since launch has its source in trying to balance PvP. Zero thought given to the impact on PvE – zero thought given to players that don’t want to spend their time ganking other players or being ganked by them.

Relevant to your other point regarding alternative builds: I just play PvE and I don’t play a Stealth-reliant thief. Haven’t since the now long ago nerf to Stealth. Which means my build was not x-30-30-x-x. SA is nice trait line but in PvE the additional toughness from 30 points in SA is significantly offset by the amount of aggro a tougher character can drawn. So I have to ask: Why is it that Anet’s stated goal of “making alternative builds more viable” didn’t seem to include mine? If they really wanted to “make alternative builds viable” they should have 1) buffed base initiative regeneration as they did, 2) left the initiative traits in Acrobatics and Trickery, etc. as the were, and 3) not nerfed vigor in any of the trait lines. That might have given players an incentive/reward for traiting heavily in something other than CS/SA or even going full damage zerk-style 30-30-x-x-x and relying heavily on stealth for fleeing. Instead I now actually feel pushed to use stealth more now than I ever did before and I’m considering going to the x-30-30-x-x build to maintain effectiveness.

If Anet wanted to encourage more diversity in thief builds they could have made a single, simple change and accomplished that: Put thieves in the mid-tier for health. When you can actually take damage and not crumple like a piece of paper you have the “luxury” of not having to be optimal in dodging and dodge every blow you can by relying on vigor, you don’t have to scrape for every scrap of initiative so you can “flash” down your target before it hits you, and you don’t have to be overly reliant on stealth to regen/heal or flee. If Anet really wants to make “reward” thieves who are willing to claw through an encounter (any encounter – against long odds or short) and not flee that’s the one change they can make that would likely accomplish that. No more futzing around tweaking traits etc. They just need to give a hand to hand class with access to modest armor and no defensive boons other than vigor and/or regeneration the reasonable/appropriate level of health to enable them to stay in a fight.

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class. More nerfs of any kind will simply push it further and further into obscurity. Very good players will continue to play it but at some point even most of them will only play it in more limited ways and use it in only limited roles. As someone mention it makes a great harvesting character which deserves a “lol” in that he statement is so sad but true its not funny. Modestly skilled to good players will walk away from it in mass – in fact they already have.

I think the real question is: At what point does working harder than any other class for the same reward stop being “rewarding” and become “foolish”?

Clumsy.6257:

Arrow.4619:

If thieves are so OP in PvE there ought to be tons of them – right?

Absolutely not. The most popular class is always going to be the easiest. After that you have to consider what the majority of the population actually does. In this case the majority likes to run around in open world zergs, a 1200 range-fest.

Arrow.4619:

Better yet, go to an event – any world event and do the same survey. Do it enough times and you get the same result pretty consistently. What is it that all those players don’t know about how wonderfully OP the thief class is?

How is the number of a class a representation of how strong a class is? If anything, its a representation of how easy a class is. And I’m not sure about the population of TC but it can’t be as many as Blackgate and we have plenty of thieves running around.

ive tried going routes like this in explaining it. they just dont let it sink in. between the trolls and thief haters….it just …. wont sink in. excellent points tho.
heres another… check the LFG status. they actually have “no thieves plz” in the lfg status.

And how does that represent a classes ability to perform well? That just shows how bad the average thief is and why most people believe thief is UP.

Clumsy, Clumsy, Clumsy . . . cannot figure out if you are just a troll or an apologist for Anet.

Sparrow already tried to head smack you with the obvious point you overlooked so I won’t bother. This entire thread is about PvE balanced being sacrificed for PvP balance. Anet made a really fundamentally flawed decision long ago not to separate the skills/traits/etc. between PvE and PvP. PvPers may take exception when PvEers point this out but most of that exception is taken because class balance is as broken for them as well. The only people who don’t get it are people like you, one ot the “I’m an uber player so you should just shut up, man up and just l2p crowd” that everyone else finds rather pathetic.

Arrow.4619:

Oh and just for the heck of it: while your at it just to prove the thief’s PvE OPness try the Inquest Golem event Mount Maelstrom (I hope you about a 10 ms ping and no noticeable lag. Have fun!.

Is this supposed to be hard? Now I see why your having so much trouble with your thief. It might be somewhat difficult if I solo it.

Now try not to be silly (although your response was partially my fault I suppose since I wasn’t clear enough). I can solo the event now . . . anyone could with the right class. I could do that on my thief but would I could very well have to spend more than I make from the event on repair bills and way pointing out. I’ve completed it once with my thief without getting downed and I realized after that the event is simply not worth the effort with a thief. As a thief your range is 900 which means you HAVE to be on the platform in the “kill zone” for the Inquest Golem event, which also means that unless you know and/or can see the electric filed pattern and have very very good reflexes you will get downed instantly at least once and probably several times (whether it be from lag, failing to notice the wisps as electric field starts to come up, or just simply missing that dodge or Withdrawl or Shadow Return by a fraction of a second). There is no room for error and its simply foolish to bother with that event if you have to get within 900 range (let alone hand-to-hand). The only class that can do that event at 900 or less range with any reasonable chance of walking away unscathed it the Warriors (as the can either make themselves immune to direct damage or conditions for long enough to get away from the field). I compare my experience as a longbow ranger in that event (which I did “2 man” but not solo just recently) with my experiences playing the thief. On my ranger I never used a heal and face tanked/Rampaged my way through the entire event. If you are at that event as a thief you are the least OP player at the event . . . guaranteed. You either get that or you don’t.

The event itself is actually a perfect example of of how PvE class balance has been unnecessarily broken by balancing for the sake of PvP. The thief range limitation is clearly about making sure a very mobile class (the thief) cannot simply hound players at range forever and never get caught. A totally unnecessary restriction in PvE since any class at 1000-1200 range can simply run away and escape most PvE encounters if necessary. A thief with a 1200 range is no better or worse off than any other class in a PvE encounter. A thief in an encounter where a 1200 range is a virtual necessity is clearly at a distinct disadvantage.

Having Assassin’s Reward remove a condition per so many initiative spent or so much healing done is the best idea I’ve seen to making it worthwhile Grandmaster trait. I recently finally caved in and went to 20 Shadow Arts simply to take condition removal on stealth. I was quite happy with 10pts in Shadow Arts as it gave me access to the trait I wanted/needed (Cloaked in Shadow) as a high initiative PvE thief . Didn’t want to invest in SA (the higher your toughness the more aggro you trigger and I find increased Health to be a better choice) but felt I pretty much had to. I would be quite willing to take Assassin’s Reward as Grandmaster with the same healing as before but with the additional feature or removing any condition (note “any” – enough of this getting rid or one or even three of a limited set of conditions which is pretty much how most of the Thief condition removal is structured).

@Clumsy, Azure and all the others who insist that thief is OP in PvE:

Here’s a suggestion: Go to Lions Arch on your server at a busy time and try and count all the various classes around the bank, the crafting stations, the mystic fountain, and the trading post. I just did this in TC – one of the more populous servers – and found about 5 thieves. What I found mostly instead were a lot of were the real OP classes: Guardians and Warriors. They were followed by Elementalists and Rangers (in a reasonably close tie), than Necromancers and Engineers. If thieves are so OP in PvE there ought to be tons of them – right? Better yet, go to an event – any world event and do the same survey. Do it enough times and you get the same result pretty consistently. What is it that all those players don’t know about how wonderfully OP the thief class is? Maybe you should share that knowledge with them – spread the gospel. I’m sure it will be well received once they all understand. After that it will be thieves EVERYWHERE!

Oh and just for the heck of it: while your at it just to prove the thief’s PvE OPness try the Inquest Golem event Mount Maelstrom (I hope you about a 10 ms ping and no noticeable lag. Have fun!.

MyCondolences.8172:

PVE Thief Build

Do you have a slow computer or high ping?
Are you always getting downed?
Or just want something with a bit of room to breath.
After spending a bunch of time playing on calculators and doing dungeon runs ingame I came up with the 0/30/10/30/0 build.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAoYlYmiPXcS4E95Ey2jdqC5JuCOV3jsS+0KA-jUBBYfBM3sIasFXFRjVXDT5iIqGA-w

This build maintains around 80% of the DPS of the meta 25/30/0/0/15 build with a whooping boost of nearly double eHP, assuming they werent using practiced tolerance. Also has bonus heals from Assassin’s Reward for better sustain.

Why not 30 points in shadow arts? On paper it offers better heals and over all better sustain through access to perm regeneration and a larger heal during stealth via Shadow’s Rejuvation. I ran 10/30/30/0/0 for awhile and i found that because of aggro mechanics and due to the fact that 3 things affect aggro; range, dmg and toughness, the added toughness meant that i almost always had aggro and i just didnt have enough healing to stay alive.

30points in Critical Strikes
This actually accounts for a bulk of the DPS in any thief build. Just 30points in critical strikes puts you at about 30% less dps then the optimal DPS build of 30/30/0/0/10. It also has alot of useful traits.

10points in Shadow Arts
This is a gem. It allows you to choose between
1. Infusion with shadows
2. Shadow Protector
3. Shadow’s Embrace

30points in Acrobatics
Assassin’s Reward doesnt offer alot of passive healing, but its passive healing non the least. You also get feline grace, near perm swiftness(depending on the circumstances) and a nice 10% increase to dps when your endurance isnt full(and how often is it?). As i said before, in PvE i found a slight DPS boost and i rarely found myself going down compared to the 10/30/30/0/0 build.

Other Notes:
You can easily swap out Valkyrie Armor for Berserker. It would add a bit more then 5% DPS to the build.

This isnt some super OP build or a build i would advise to a player that currently has no problems running a glass cannon build. This is for players that want to play thief and feel they are too squishy and go down to often. I tried to find a build that can still maintain dps without going down so easily. A dead player does no DPS.

Hope this build helps some players.

This is a variation on a build I’ve been running for many months now: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYUQRAoY6alcmaOHcS5E+5Ey2jKUo4JuCJV3jryq0KA-jgEBYfhGVMQYLI4LYEEhmwAg0AhIBiIALzcas5PBpqpIasqaCy6jYKXJ1eLR2ca1WdASBsxyI-e.

Originally with Rampager armor for the crit chance and now I’m moving to Berserker Ascended. Its still squishy, but I’ve found it better than x-30-30-x-x for staying up and mobile while still allowing me to fight toe-to-toe with multiple opponents (and yes I do dodge a lot but I will also solo engage half dozen or more mobs or multiple veterans at the same time, and a solo elite or an occasional champion). I’ve never been that impressed with the last 10 points in the Shadows line so I’ve never found past 20 pts worthwhile. I’ve also never been fond of Withdrawl – on paper its nice and does all the right things but I dislike uncontrolled movement on my character and I frequently am in fights where throwing the character backwards suddenly could be very bad.

I like this build because it suits my play style, I like being constantly, aggressively on the attack. I play around with several variations in the traits and skills and the #7 skill I swap as needed – normally the Signet of Shadows is just my back up blind for when I don’t have a Cloak and Dagger/Cloaked in Shadow available. I’ll swap just about anything for it as the situation dictates. I also swap out Pain Response for Assassin’s Reward or the Quick Recovery (more the former than the latter). I ran Hide in Shadows forever but now only use it occasionally.

The weakness I’ve found in the build is lack of a decent reliable on-command condition removal utility – that should be the Signet of Agility but it isn’t (it really should just be a remove all conditions – give it a longer cool down if necessary to balance). Normally conditions in PvE are not that big a deal, but sometimes (toxic tower event etc.) they are, and when they are it can truly suck. I run everything with this character first but I can attest that its still glassy in ways that my secondary character, a ranger has never been. To me its telling that I’ve spent 30 points in vitality on my thief but my ranger, who has spent about 10 or 20 has 4000+ more health. Because of course with Anet’s logic the class with a longbow multi-attack vulnerability-causing skill with a 1200+ range and an 8 sec CD and a tanky pet to draw and hold aggro is clearly one one that needs 22K+ hit points . . . not the point blank “look em in the eye when you stab them in the other eye” thief.

Scrambles.2604:

Arrow.4619:

What a totally unnecessary and unwelcome idea. Put that feature in PvP or WvW land where it belongs. Most of the people arguing for it are exactly the reason why most of the rest of the community thinks the idea sucks. The “come at me bro” crowd doesn’t need a special system to be more strutting, obnoxious and annoying. And please don’t say it “has” to be in open world – if two players want to duel they can do it in PvP or WvW “arenas” and leave the rest of us out of their “little” measuring contest(s).

i can’t comprehend why people are so quick to suggest putting duels in sPvP or WvW “where they belong.”

I bet your sPvP team is going to be real stoked that they keep losing because two guys on your team are back at spawn dueling eachother, while the other team has the whole map capped.

WvW is even worse because there are queues to get in. If i am taking a spot in WvW you better believe i am trying to do something productive for the server. I would hate to think i am sitting in queue for 30 mins to an hour because WvW is apparently the only place to duel your friends. If you’re taking up a limited spot in WvW, you should be helping the war effort. That is a terrible place to duel.

Why are you being so contentious? You obviously haven’t put a lot of thought into this with your haphazard suggestions. You are only thinking of the repercussions for yourself and no one else. And this is assuming there even are “repercussions,” because i still maintain that open world duels will not effect you if you choose not to duel.

and for what? To prevent “little measuring contests?” Why is everything about e-pens with you guys? Could you stop being so bitter for a moment and think some people enjoy friendly sparring matches, out in the mostly empty, unused open world, with no rigid rules or distinct goals?

I don’t know why everyone seems to automatically associate duels with malicious behaviors. Do you just assume everyone who enjoys sPvP are also evil bullys? Is everyone that does WvW a jerk as well? Are we so far gone into carebear mode that we view anything remotely competitive with disdain???

Lastly, are costume brawls not an existing model for duels in the open world? Where are all the threads about harassment stemming from costume brawls??

First: The idea that the only way this could happen within with the existing infrastructure in PvP or WvW is silly. You would enter the PvP annex and just simply have an option to enter a dueling arena through a new NPC or something similar. Same with WvW dualing – you would enter the keep and have the option then through an NPC to enter a 1 v 1 dual. Why this is so hard for the open world dual crowd to get I don’t get.

Second: Yes, I have enormous disdain for the competitive aspects of the game. Have not enjoyed them and probably never will. I haven’t enjoyed PvP since I was in college and even then it was getting old. I have discovered over time a simple truth: the more someone is into PvP the higher the “jerk” quotient seems to be. Its not a given but it correlates fairly well.

Third: The costume brawl is as big a red herring as any I’ve seen from the open world dual crowd. It almost always occurs on days when its a daily. There is really nothing about it that is competitive, and typically people simply take turns being brawling champ. Do you really imagine something similar happening with open world duals?

I have some simple questions for you: What do you think you’ve proven when defeat someone in PvP? Have you proven somehow you are better? Or is it just that you have better twitch reflexes? That you have better gear? Do you ever think that have gotten lucky Or maybe you’ve proven you have a better internet connection? What is it exactly that you get from it? Is it just fun? If its fun, wouldn’t it be just as fun set off in a separate instance? Why is it you need the audience? What does that do for you? What does that need say about you?

What a totally unnecessary and unwelcome idea. Put that feature in PvP or WvW land where it belongs. Most of the people arguing for it are exactly the reason why most of the rest of the community thinks the idea sucks. The “come at me bro” crowd doesn’t need a special system to be more strutting, obnoxious and annoying. And please don’t say it “has” to be in open world – if two players want to duel they can do it in PvP or WvW “arenas” and leave the rest of us out of their “little” measuring contest(s).

evilapprentice.6379:

Big Tower.5423:

Offhand sword first.

I’d prefer the weapons we already have access to be well designed first and foremost.
P/P is a joke
D/D is mostly inferior to D/P and still has a condition based skill smack dab in the middle of 4 power/crit skills
S/P’s dual skill needs more than a band-aid
S/D needs 5 skills worth using rather than 2 and a half.

D/P and Shbow are the only well designed weapon sets thief currently has access to.

All they need to do with D/D #3 is change the condition to a reasonable amount of Vulnerability (bearing in mind that it can be spammed). More useful and effective overall . . . so of course it would never happen.