Can’t speak on EvE Online. But I do know I face a bigger grind going back into GW1 to finish my Hall of Monuments title track. Not to mention the grind for “God Amongst Mere Mortals”. There will be an incredible grind for those last 15 points or so, not to mention 20 title tracks.
I am not one of those who will argue that GW1 did not have grind. I didn’t encounter it, but I know others did. Still, GWAMM and HoM grind were for cosmetic options, something we were told would be how grind was handled in GW2, for cosmetics only. GW2, instead, has implemented time gated vertical progression gear grind.
I’m going to try not to laugh loud and hard about that statement of “Time gated vertical progression gear grind”.
I could list, again, a lot of things I know I found grindy in GW1 and I only just hit the tip of the iceberg.
Feel free to laugh if you like.
I pointed out that the HoM title grind was a matter of cosmetics as was indicated would be the case in GW2.
I never denied that GW1 had grind for some people.
If Anet didn’t want people to have to face the very real possibility of other players attempting to prevent them from completing the JP wouldn’t they have put the puzzle in a PvE zone ? Working as intended.
My sympathies to the OP. Sounds like a frustrating experience. Unfortunately going into a PvP instance without an interest or desire to participate in a PvP experience is likely to produce frustration.
My preference would be to see a minimum participation threshold for event rewards added (or increased). Currently I can get rewards for events by running past them on my way to someplace else without pausing to interact with the event at all. I am not suggesting some requirement for elite performance or anything, but something more than, “I was in the general vicinity of the event without even knowing that ti was running and I got bronze reward,” seems appropriate.
I’ve played over 5000 hours of Guild Wars 2.
Seriously ?
Not trying to flame you or anything but 9 hours a day, every single day of the week, every single day of the month, since launch ?
Wow. That is amazing to me.
Question is: why would GW2 has anything from GW1? Except some Lore continuation?
Because the developers said it would when selling the game to GW1 players.
Can’t speak on EvE Online. But I do know I face a bigger grind going back into GW1 to finish my Hall of Monuments title track. Not to mention the grind for “God Amongst Mere Mortals”. There will be an incredible grind for those last 15 points or so, not to mention 20 title tracks.
I am not one of those who will argue that GW1 did not have grind. I didn’t encounter it, but I know others did. Still, GWAMM and HoM grind were for cosmetic options, something we were told would be how grind was handled in GW2, for cosmetics only. GW2, instead, has implemented time gated vertical progression gear grind.
1) Allow Rangers to forgo having a pet, grant a character buff instead.
2) More weapon skill selection.
3) Reduce skill graphics dramatically (or provide a player side option for the same).
4) Elimination of ascended gear.
5) more weapon and armor skins for horizontal progression (including more medium armor options without waist capes or trench coats).
So, why not make them instanced instead? Those 90%+ aren’t doing Teq and Wurm now, so why should they care? At least make them more convenient to others.
Because the current set up makes it easier for an individual to try the content out.
“I don’t like raids and instances, and I wouldn’t be doing them, and I don’t want them to be added for those who enjoy them.”
More like, “I am not interested in large instanced raids and don’t want existing open world content taken away from open world PvE.”
And exactly who would stop you trying instances?
Honest question here,
have you ever plaid an MMO with raiding ?
Because way-pointing into the zone where an open world event is going to happen soon(ish) in order to try out the big event with a bunch of other people already there for it is very different than trying to get a raid group to accept you.
Over a grand, but stopped spending anything after certain development direction decisions by Anet.
So, why not make them instanced instead? Those 90%+ aren’t doing Teq and Wurm now, so why should they care? At least make them more convenient to others.
Because the current set up makes it easier for an individual to try the content out.
“I don’t like raids and instances, and I wouldn’t be doing them, and I don’t want them to be added for those who enjoy them.”
More like, “I am not interested in large instanced raids and don’t want existing open world content taken away from open world PvE.”
Have to agree with Smooth Penguin on this one. Not every bit of content will be aimed at every player. Having a variety of things to do for a variety of play styles is the spice of life for an MMO.
Not everyone enjoys crafting
Not everyone enjoys dungeons
Not everyone enjoys personal story
Not everyone enjoys jumping puzzles
Not everyone enjoys exploration
and not everyone enjoys large scale organized team play.
If there is a particular type of content that doesn’t appeal to you…..do something else. Removing the large scale and organizational aspects of the encounters through down scaling would make the effort put into playing the encounter at the upper end of the scaling/organizational spectrum superfluous and irrelevant.
Anet has already begun to address the issue with ascended/ vertical progression directly with a CDI.
Does ascended gear still exist ?
Has there been any indication from Anet ni the CDI thread(s) that ascended gear will be removed from the game ?
The issue still exists.
Actually, as I’ve stated, AFKing the LA event can be seen as “exploit”, since you gain rewards without doing anything.
This would mean that traveling in the general vicinity of an event could be seen as an “exploit” since you can gain rewards without doing anything.
The same would be true of going AFK for as little as a matter of seconds in the general vicinity of an event.
Personally I think that the participation threshold for gaining event rewards should be addressed.
So far, all the people here are agreeing they are STEALING rewards by MISUSING a feature for personal gain.
My apologies for being blunt but you might want to reread this thread. “all the people here,” are not agreeing on anything, let alone this one particular point.
Yes I can. And yes that is what they intended. If it wassn’t their intention then why is it possible? Its not a small oversight. If it was an oversight, well, there was 3 patches since this release they could have fixed that.
Wait, it same system like in rest of game you say? Then it surely is intended or it would be changed durring year and half of games existence.
Besides, having dev friends makes you biased and your arguments have no credibility. But you must feel really important in gw2 universe, good for you…
Thankfully there are GMs who take care of people who feel that it’s ok to AFK like how you think it’s intended. And they seem to be quite lenient on the punishments. Where else would you get to have multiple warnings before you’re hit with a 72 hour suspension? I personally would drop the “exploit” tag on them, resulting in perma-bans. But that’s just my own biased opinions.
Is that part of:
I said to debate whether or not Anet intended for people to be rewarded for doing nothing.
???
It looks as if he is attempting to comply with your request for debate on a specific topic.
You missed the part where I said to debate whether or not Anet intended for people to be rewarded for doing nothing.
100% (or close to it) of all events in the game can or will reward people who do not participate. People who are AFK. People who do nothing.
This has been the case since beta.
This is not an unknown or obscure bug. New events added to the game include this, “feature.”
Pretty solid evidence, in my opinion, that this is intended.
I am fairly sure that getting rewards for events that occur while you are AFK is intended. It has been this way, known to be this way, since beta.
Getting rewards for events in which you did not actively participate is the norm in GW2. I have frequently experienced situations where I ran past an area to get to a destination further along only to receive reward for completion of an event that I had not even know was in progress and which I played no part.
Personally I find this to be a bit weird. I would much rather see higher minimum participation requirements for events, but any claim that standing around in a PvE zone is an exploit is a bit off. Any claim that getting rewards for events in which one does not participate is unintended or an exploit is completely inconsistent with the established and existing pattern of event rewards in the game. Such a claim would need to be accompanied by an additional claim that essentially 100% of all events in the game are not functioning as intended because they can all provide rewards for minimal or no participation.
My experiences are that the game is extremely far from dying. People have just moved away from the content that most new people are entering.
Pretty much what he said.
Then why do you care so much about getting stronger in old content only?
I don’t. Never said I did. The reference to older content was merely a way of demonstrating readily that the character is more powerful relative to the world as a whole.
If it is handled properly (the way it often would be in a Pen and Paper game) gear progression is an indication of getting more powerful at the top tier as well. This is done by changing the nature of the opposition. Instead of facing Orcs with more hit points who hit for more damage at the new top tier you face larger menaces which brings home the sense of increased power level for your newly progressed character.
One form of “progression” I could endorse is the introduction of new skills that would add new tactics necessary to beat fights.This kind of thing actually improves the gameplay.
Completely agree. Adding elements to encourage players to grow their skill level is much more interesting to me than just inflating numbers.
Inflating stats on gear doesn’t.
To clarify, I never claimed that gear progression was a good thing. The addition of ascended gear in GW2 has me voting with my wallet. I spent approximately $100 per month on the game previously, now $0.
I was discussing the mechanics of gear progression and the impact on character power level, not the merits of such.
Get the top tier gear. Then go play non top tier content.
What’s the point? That you keep repeating old tier content when you get new gear, rather than doing new tier content, because you have a keen interest in playing games in easy mode?
It was a demonstration that the character is more powerful with higher powered gear despite claims to the contrary.
Personally I prefer to play games that have different difficulty levels (such as GW1) only in hard mode. I have assisted guild-mates and friends by assisting with lower level content with which they are having difficulty, but generally am not doing so for my own sake. You might want to reread my post(s) as you seem to have developed a completely false opinion of my interests. I think that you will find that I have not once indicated a personal interest in easy mode or repeating old content.
That’s all an illusion of vertical progression. Here’s the deal. At stage VP1 all the players and the environment are at power level X. VP2 occurs and all the players hop on the treadmill. They emerge at power level Y. Because you don’t want trivial content, the environment assumes power level Y.
There is no relative difference in power between players before or after vertical progression has occurred. Additionally, there is no relative difference in power between players and environment before or after vertical progression. The emperor has no clothes. No one has actually gone anywhere. Everyone has simply gone on a treadmill ride. They got on and off at the same place.
Afraid that I have to disagree. Characters with the new vertical progression (whatever form it takes) are more powerful compared to the game world as a whole than those who have not acquired it (yet, or never will). In general only the newest content, filled with the newest foes, maintains any sense of power level comparable to the character.
Is a character with the new VP gear balanced against the new content ? Ideally, yes. Does that mean that he is not more powerful ? No. This is objectively demonstrable. Go into a game with VP. Get the top tier gear. Then go play non top tier content. Compare the degree of difficulty in completing this content now, with the gear, to a period when you did not have the gear. Odds are you will complete the content faster, with fewer deaths, generally with greater ease. By definition this means you are stronger compared to that content than was previously the case.
Whats the deal with everyone naming topics after famous songs..?
Movie actually.
I prefer the book
http://www.amazon.com/Live-Die-L-A-Gerald-Petievich/dp/1466219645
Yup. I just meant that I was referencing the movie, not the song (of which I had never heard), in the title.
Whats the deal with everyone naming topics after famous songs..?
Movie actually.
I guess that might matter if your goal in life is to trivialize old content and run the same crap all day.
Not for me, but people do sell dungeon (or mission in GW1) runs, power leveling, and so on. It is a way of “farming” I suppose.
Personally I think that anyone who has anything related to playing a video game as their, “goal in life,” new content, old, or otherwise might want to reconsider.
—> you’re back to the same status of power as you had before that gear and content was introduced. No more stronger or weaker when completing the new content.
You are a lot stronger when completing old content though, which is why old content in most mmo tends to be rather abandoned or boring stuff. Anet tried (and failed) to keep a semblance of balance so that the older content doesn’t get abandoned, by introducing downlevelling in lower level dungeons, but the problem is that lvl 80s are still a lot more powerful than the actual intended levels for these dungeons, and ascended gear’s higher damage is also noticeable if all 5 in the party wears it.
Which means that characters who have acquired more power (in the form of stats in this case) can blow through older content, such as dungeons, faster, acquiring the resulting rewards and wealth more quickly, perhaps even being able to sell instance runs or power-leveling (in some games).
Except that inflated stats has nothing to do with challenge, try again.
This is incorrect.
If your stats increase the level of challenge decreases. This is a direct correlation that is far from, “nothing.” You acknowledge this factor in your own post when you say:
In fact, the introduction of more ascended gear trivialized fractals.
To illustrate the point made in my previous post:
Character A has a degree of strength due to stats equal to X.
Character B acquires gear that gives him a degree of strength due to stats equal to X*2.
Assuming positive integers, X*2 cannot be less than or equal to X and therefore character B’s degree of strength due to stats is greater than A’s.
(edited by Ashen.2907)
Did you actually get stronger ?
Yes. You can now face tougher foes than you could previously. That is one definition of becoming stronger or better, the ability to accomplish that which was previously beyond your capability.
A chess player who practices a lot so that he wins more, increasing his ELO rating, will then be matched up against tougher opponents. The fact that he now faces higher rated opponents, more of a match for his new skill level, does not mean that he has not become a better, or, “stronger,” player.
Yes that old in GW1 you had comment from me again.
So here it goes…
In Gw1 you hade balthazar faction that you could use to get some things for. One of them was zaishen keys and that made some of pvp players rich, very rich.
True, but even so it was not even close to the levels of wealth attainable in PvE (z-keys that is, not counting ultra-rare minis and such).
Overreaction of the year?
Honest question, do you read the news ?
Even so, I am not sure that logging out of something that is supposed to be fun when it annoys you is an overreaction at all.
Not him, but yes I do follow the news of the games I enjoyed or still enjoy.
My apologies. The point was that referring to logging out of a video game as the, “overreaction of the year,” when the news is full of overreactions like police shootings, murder, etc seemed a bit off.
Overreaction of the year?
Honest question, do you read the news ?
Even so, I am not sure that logging out of something that is supposed to be fun when it annoys you is an overreaction at all.
Quoting this from a different thread for relevance.
What Ascended is:
- A stat increase (no one should dispute this)
- An increase in the amount of time and/or effort to gain BiS items (since this is one of the stated reasons for it to exist, no one should dispute this, either)
- A perceived need (indisputable, no one gets to determine what someone else thinks they need or want)
- An increase in the overall effectiveness of the players’ characters (objectively provable; game effectiveness is determined by math; Ascended provides higher numbers)
- An enabler of arguments in the game’s community (dispute that one, I dare you)
- A gear tier that was implemented in a piecemeal and haphazard fashion (if Ascended had been a well-planned tier, stat increases would have been spread proportionally over the entire gear tier, using methodology consistent with other gear tiers already in the game. The Ascended tier stat increases are weighted towards trinkets, with the last implementation, armor, providing the smallest increases.)
- Cheaper to produce than robust cosmetic progression (throwing higher stats onto gear is a lot less resource intensive than producing weapon and especially armor skins)
- A change in direction for the game (statements were made before launch that looks, not stat increases, would be the game’s long-term goals)
What Ascended isn’t:
- A pass/fail requirement for participation in 99% of the game’s conduct (unlike raid gear in other games, content is not impossible without the higher numbers; I say 99% because it’s arguable that highest level fractals require infusions)
- The start of a gear treadmill (there is no design statement that additional tiers will follow, absent this, statements that there is a gear treadmill are premature)
- A violation of statements made in the Manifesto (ANet did make pre-launch statements to the effect that BiS would be readily attainable, but those statements were not in the Manifesto blog or video)
- Something that was necessary to retain players clamoring for something to do (there is zero proof that players would not have embraced cosmetic progression if additional, robust cosmetic options had been implemented instead of stat increases)
Most of what he said there is spot on.
That way we would get a new tier, but gaining it would be alot easier, than getting Ascended, but Ascended would be a prerequisite item that you’d need first to get your epic item. However, behind epic Items wouldn’t exist any time gating or so..
I think that if you examine this portion of your post carefully you will see a logic disconnect.
If getting a new, “epic,” tier of gear requires that you first acquire ascended gear, and then spend more effort to convert it to epic, then epic is not easier than getting ascended.
If ascended requires X units of effort and epic requires ascended +1 unit of effort, then:
Ascended = X
Epic = X+1
X+1 > X
My wife logged into her GW2 account to play the game for the first time in a few weeks today. Apparently her character was attacked and killed while she was in the process of logging in (logged out near the bank in LA), before she even had the option to act.
This annoyed her sufficiently to convince her to log back out. All of her characters are currently in LA. Is there a way to get them out of LA in order to log into them without this concern ?
Progression is the journey to get to the fight, and may color how the fight is fought and the reward. “What do I need to do to get to the dragon?”
Progression is anything that either moves one toward a goal, or provides an objective movement into a superior state of being. It can occur (be pursued) for its own sake even when not moving toward the next fight/match. A player who plays almost exclusively in the Queensdale champion trains, farming for enough gold to buy the legendary of his choice, is experiencing progression even if he never uses the legendary to fight anything other than those same Queensdale champions.
What you describe is one, but not the only, form of progression.
Time to get some sleep. Thank you for a very interesting discussion.
Except, those games use the same progression systems to make you buy more games like them. It’s not just MMO’s, it’s all games.
Seriously?
You’re really going to generalise that much?
That’s akin to saying “Media exists to make you buy more media!”.There’s a distinction between self-contained monetisation systems such as commercial MMOs, and independent titles.
But of course, this is the Internet. Only sweeping generalisations are true and everything is an argument to be won.
Honest question here,
Why is his sweeping generalization a bad thing, and yours not ?
Progression does not deal with the outcomes of battles
I’m not so sure about that part (or perhaps I misunderstand your point there). An objective increase in character power level tied to the outcome of a particular battle is not all that uncommon a form of progression in my experience.
“You must defeat mega-villain-monster-man in order to get the +1 pinky-ring of awesomehood,” is a classic approach to character progression dating back to table top DnD. The outcome of the battle determines whether or not your character experiences vertical progression.
When the endgame is 100% to do with looks
I agree with you to a large extent, but Anet gave up on this particular part some time back.
Unless that is what people enjoy in and of itself. I would say that the carrot in Chess is both to improve your own mind and to help one better understand others. The enjoyment comes from improving oneself and the challenge from like minded individuals. No?
I would say that the carrot is not intrinsic to chess, but that people might very well add it just as you describe. Of course there are other carrots available as well (tournament prizes, acclaim, and so on).
In my case the enjoyment came from the game itself. Anything else was a nice bonus, but not why I played the game. I stopped when it was no longer play, but rather work. By “work” I mean something I did because I was being “paid” rather than because I enjoyed doing it.
I suppose a TLDR for my entire point is that a reward provided for doing something I am enjoying anyway adds a bit of spice to an already enjoyable experience. Digital rewards that have no meaning outside of the game are not, however, an enticement to play a game unless the game is fun. If the game is fun the rewards may be a nice bonus, but are not the reason for playing.
Was GW2 at release a “fun” game?
If yes, then would you still be playing it more than ten hours a week if they had not added a single thing to it?
Yes and yes.
It is additions to the game that led to a reduction in my play time.
Adding to a game need not be a matter of vertical progression. New sights to see, new monsters to kill, new stories to be experienced.
That is not to say that a game cannot, or will not, lose appeal with repetition. At one point in time I averaged 30-40 hours a week playing chess. Eventually I burned out. Giving me a gold star sticker after each match would not have made the game play more fun at a point when I could no longer even bear to look at my chess sets.
Who knows, those gold stars (assuming some value) might have enticed me to continue playing when I wasn’t having fun though, pretty much exactly as I said in my previous post. The carrot is there to encourage people to do something that isn’t sufficiently enjoyable for its own sake.
I agree with the OP. A wardrobe type system would go a long way toward encouraging some of us to buy more armor skins.
How do you get players to play? Carrots.
You get people to play by making a fun game.
You keep them playing, when the game play itself is not sufficiently fun to keep them playing, by introducing psychological ploys intended to induce addiction like behavior in the players.
Progression, per the definition of the word, need not (though it can) involve movement toward an objective state of superiority such as increased stats. (example: acquiring a new set of armor whose stats are in no way superior to those of one’s existing armor is progression towards a goal of owning one of every armor skin in the game.)
No, you do not…You really don’t deserve anything.
You are mistaken. People purchased a game which was advertised as providing BiS gear by level 80, without grind. People DO deserve to get what they paid for.
clear advantage
If you can prove that if 1 player with ascended armor and another with exotics that the player will 100% beat the other player in a 1v1 with exotics Ill hear you out.
“Clear advantage,” does not equate to 100% win rate. People with weapon technology dating back to the stone age, knives for example, have defeated those with firearms. In other words that 100% does not apply. This does not mean that guns do not provide a clear advantage over sharpened rocks.
I am not allowed to say his hair looks stupid because he does?
That is correct.
Making personal attacks/insults against devs (or players) is not allowed.
as i recall, they promised no grind for the best gear…
….the ascended armor and weapons, and other weapon skins, including legendaries, are all only a few points better than the exotics.
So Ascended are the best gear, and require grind, of which you point out that they promised there would be none.
That knife block is awesome.
And so was the whole process. Thanks for sharing.
I just wish we could use pristine relics to obtain these!
Agree with this, after 472 fractals complete I obtained 1 harpoon skin.. I have no intention of wastein any more time hunting these skins unless they become purchasable with relics.
Just out of curiosity, how long does your average fractal run take ?
You just want it handed to you.
The game was advertised with the line that BiS would be acquired by level 80. No grind for it. He bought the game. Its not asking to have something handed to you if you have paid for that something. He has done the work, just hasn’t received the benefits of said work. Sounds like the fault is not with him, rather with ANet.
Some know that I was one of the biggest fans of the ascended crafting system. In fact, while I’m “neither hot nor cold” on time gating, I think the implementation of the whole set up was great. Yes, some people have issues with a zillion bloodstone dust piles, and I understand how that’s an issue, but let me explain what made me sell all the Damask that I have, along with squares and ingots.
It boils down to one thing, and this one thing, I believe, may be a huge deterrent for a lot of others as well.
The issue I have isn’t the crafting methods, it’s the results.
You spend a ton of time and materials to make ascended gear, but you are stuck with the stats. If you choose wrongly, or, more likely, if Anet decides they are going to nuke a stat and rebuild it to be less effective, etc., you are screwed.
The upcoming changes to critical damage are what really brought this problem to the front of my mind. I don’t want to spend a ton of time gathering materials and crafting, etc. just to create a pow/prec/tough set, only to have Anet decide later on that Precision is part of the dps problem and cripple it with some stupid modification. (hypothetically).
With that in mind I’ve simply stopped all progress on ascended material. If I gather enough stuff along the way to create an ingot, bolt, or something along those lines, I’ll make it and sell it on the TP.
I’m hoping that if they take Jeweler to 500, it will be interesting. As such I’m saving my metals and gems along with other items, but for ascended armor, forget it.
This describes one of my issues with ascended gear.
It’s unlikely they will allow elite slot to hold utilities, would make it seems like elite skills really are inferior to utilities then.
If the only reason why people use elites is because they cannot put an utility skill in this slot, then it would mean something is really, really bad with elites.
And frankly lot of elites (…most of them, even) are inferior.
Agreed