Guild Wars 2

timmyf.1490:

Ashen.2907:

timmyf.1490:

In the image you posted of Queen’s Gauntlet foes, you list Doobroosh as having a variable weight of 150-450. (I think, don’t have it in front of me.)

This is OBVIOUSLY a VIOLATION of the law of conservation of mass. Did you not think your players would notice?

You are mistaken.

Mass and weight are not (quite) the same thing. Of course Doobroosh’s mass remains constant, but gravity fluctuates to produce a variable weight.

I thought that might be the case at first as well, but the variable “weight” is listed on international language options as well. Those should be in kilos. So mass.

Nope : )

timmyf.1490:

In the image you posted of Queen’s Gauntlet foes, you list Doobroosh as having a variable weight of 150-450. (I think, don’t have it in front of me.)

This is OBVIOUSLY a VIOLATION of the law of conservation of mass. Did you not think your players would notice?

You are mistaken.

Mass and weight are not (quite) the same thing. Of course Doobroosh’s mass remains constant, but gravity fluctuates to produce a variable weight.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Dark Jackson.3417:

- It’s all about : What majority wants..

And this is what I cannot fully fathom – how can so many players enjoy games that sell them ‘content’ that is not only cheap (read: superficial&recycled) and relies on terrible game mechanics (zerging, mass events), but often enough require additional rl payments for something that is only temporary – what does that tell about those players?

Please, don’t give me the ‘casual’ argument. Being a casual player doesn’t and shouldn’t translate to ‘we welcome any rotten tomatos and potatoes thrown at us with open arms’. How can people be SO lacking in the sound judgement department – so easily tricked – that they will reluctantly stick to what devolved into little more than a P2P in sheep’s clothing is seriously beyond me.
Why do people dish out money for mediocre content in a mediocre game, which is ridden with spam, superficial story, temporary features, lag, recycled content, and has a minigame called pvp, and a mish&mash of pve&pvp that is wvw?

I remain absolutely b.a.f.f.l.e.d. and eagerly await the many fanboys in this thread to perhaps try shedding some light on their thought process on this phenomenom (yea, not happening). I think it’d make most interesting a subject to study.

Maybe they enjoy something you do not. People finding enjoyment in something that someone else does not find enjoyable is pretty much the norm. I mean lets assume you like MMOs (fair assumption that you would not be posting on an MMO forum unless the genre had some appeal for you right ?).

Did you know that there are people out there right now who consider spending time in an MMO, or in a computer game at all for that matter, to be a waste of time and an example of, “lacking in the sound judgement department ?”

Shockwave.1230:

Has the potential art for the Echovald Forest been discussed in this thread?

Such potential! I loved the eery dark gothic feel it had, I’m realizing how strange that statement is. It was such a unique an interesting area in Guild Wars. Maybe a more gothic Pale tree could be there!!!

One of my all time favorite regions in a computer game.

Galen Grey.4709:

why do you keep accusing me of speaking about what everyone else on the planet likes? can you point out one place where I am doing that ?

Galen Grey.4709:

sorry I disagree rewards absolutely do not make content fun. Never did never will, they may make it worth while but they’re never going to make it fun. If you hate say PvP you’re not going to find it fun just cause doing it will get you a legendary. You may be happy to endure it cause you really want a legendary but you’re still not going to find it enjoyable.

^^^^^^^Right up there.

============

Galen Grey.4709:

And if in your opinion that means you’re talking for everyone else then arent you doing exactly the same thing?

No, because at no point have I claimed that everyone else likes/dislikes something. I did not even claim that those who do have their fun affected by rewards will always be so affected or so affected by every reward. I stated that for some people associated rewards can make what might otherwise be boring content fun.

Galen Grey.4709:

Okey fair enough..so lets make this really simple. You did say " I experienced plenty of situations where I enjoyed a task that would have been boring without the associated rewards. I have interacted with others whose experience was comparable to mine." Now you never stated how many others you were talking about so its up to you to come up with how common this phenomena is in your opinion.

Nothing of the sort is up to me. You claimed, “never,” I countered to explain that “never” was inaccurate.

Galen Grey.4709:

Lets say for the sake of argument its extremely uncommon That would still imply it happens a few times. So lets take whats arguably the most sought after reward in Gw2 Ascended gear (not saying it is the best reward only that because of the feedback and how much uproar it caused its clearly one of the most sought after rewards. Not my opinion but the forums opinion. And just so there is no misunderstand and you dont think I am projecting my believes on others as usual please be aware I dont care about ascended gear at all. I only have 3 pieces which I got a couple of months ago just to help some guildies with fractals. Anyhow back on subject. If what you’re saying is true the most sought after reward should at least have some people who are happy with the content they have to play in order to get that reward. Now one can find a ton of posts against said content. All I am asking you to do is find 1 that defends the content as is.

1) I am not sure that using the forums, normally a hot bed of negativity, as a litmus test for what the game’s community likes is a good idea. I certainly would not go to a Slayer concert to find positive commentary on Justin Bieber’s music.

2) Despite my opinion in #1, I have seen posts commending ANet for the implementation of Ascended gear, though they have generally been shouted down in a chorus of acrimony.

3) Even if there were not a single post on these forums which expressed a positive view of Ascended gear and its acquisition, it would not counter anything I have claimed. I never claimed that some people on these forums can have their enjoyment of content increased by the associated rewards. Nor did I claim that every reward is sufficient for everyone to have fun with content that might otherwise have been boring.

I, for example, can have fun with content that I might otherwise find boring because of the associated reward. I, on the other hand do not consider Ascended gear to be a desirable reward and would not have my enjoyment of content improved by its presence as a reward.

Galen Grey.4709:

Yet I personally never seen 1 single post defending the content as is.

I have never personally seen Idaho. This of course has no impact whatsoever on its existence (outside of certain religions/philosophies).

Galen Grey.4709:

Even people who defend Ascended gear do so by providing alternative strategies (such as dont farm but play what content you enjoy and you’ll ultimately get enough to get your ascended gear)

how would you explain that if in deed the reward makes content fun?

I said the reward can make content fun for some people.

Galen Grey.4709:

What content feels grindy / repetitive / fun / engaging / boring is subjective
what grindy / repetitive / fun / engaging and boring mean is not.

On these forums we have seen differing interpretations, and arguments, about what, “grindy,” means. In general though most of the people I have seen speak of grind have at least very strong similarities in their descriptions.

Galen Grey.4709:

Okey trying to clarify. Rewards can be fun/make you happy. Those same rewards will not make content fun/make you happy playing that content.

You are mistaken. The rewards can make content fun/make people happy playing that content. You might want to remember that you do not speak for everyone else on the planet…not even every other gamer on the planet. Just because, “rewards will not make content fun/make you happy playing that content,” is true for you does not mean that it is true for someone else.

Galen Grey.4709:

I already explained multiple times but anyway here goes again. if its true that rewards make content enjoyable you wouldnt have people complaining about grinding.

Sure you would. At no point did I claim that rewards make content fun for everyone. Obviously those for whom rewards are not sufficient to make otherwise boring content fun will complain about the boring content.

Galen Grey.4709:

And again there is a catch 22, grind requires boredom, if the content is engaging people will not consider it grindy.

Of course what is engaging to one person might very well be boring to another. Grind, fun, engaging, boring, etc are all completely subjective.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I think the gaming industry is really kind of past that ‘hardcore’ stage. People always talk about vanilla WoW and how good it was, and how the new WoW us catered to casuals and carebears, but WoW didn’t change so it could screw itself over, it changed because the gaming scene has changed from people who’s games are their lives to people with jobs, with families, who plays seldomly, so it adapted so it can stay big.

WS will probably get at least some sort if a niche audience, but I just don’t see it being a big thing. And it’s Facebook likes count seems to agree with that.

I am not sure that the “hardcore” crowd has gotten smaller so much as gaming has become more mainstream in general and so now includes those people with jobs, families, etc.

The gaming market is much larger while the hardcore market has perhaps remained static. Also, I would expect that even in the heyday of more hardcore games much of the playerbase would have been more casual, they just didn’t have many options for a casual MMO.

Now the money, the big money that is, is in casual segment. Not because the hardcore segment has gotten smaller but because the casual segment has gotten much much larger. This is compounded by the fact that MMOs are now much more corporate, big business, driven than was the case in the past.

Safer Saviour.9685:

Perhaps it only works on living creatures?

Our characters do not arrive at the other end of a waypoint nude and sans gear.

Ultimately we know, as it happens frequently, that the waypoints will transport many hundreds of pounds of matter. From a “does it make sense” perspective it is foolish to transport goods overland when a faster, cheaper, system exists. According to the lore, apparently, merchants are really bad at making financial decisions.

All of that aside, I doubt I would use mounts if they were introduced. Still, assuming that ANet could manage to balance their use I am all for adding things to the game that would make players happier with the game. I don’t see mounts as having many, if any, significant drawbacks so…sure.

Dusty Moon.4382:

It is hard to have a mixed server system without problems or some types of conflicts. Hence, it is easier to have all one type.

I don’t find any issues at all with the megaservers at all – it is nice empty areas brimming with people. There is always good and bad to everything and you can’t please everyone. On my server, TC, the sense of community has not diminished at all.

Honestly curious here. You say that you dont find any issues at all with the megaserver system, but also say there is good and bad in everything. What would you consider to be the bad in the megaserver system and, assuming that bad means adversely affecting the gam and/or players in some way, why dont you consider it to be an issue, at all ?

GW1.

I was on track to bypass my GW1 play time until certain specific changes to GW2 made playing it for more than a few minutes at a time an unpleasant experience.

Lord Kuru.3685:

And it’s clear you’re desperately trying to pad it when you add stuff that’s not in the game (Moa racing) and WvW abilities, none of which takes no more than 10 minutes of work to implement.

Ten minutes ?

Removing unpopular skins from the merchant seems like a reasonable action to me. It has the added benefit of adding some future cachet to the affected skins.

“ANet is removing skins that almost no one wants,” seems like an odd complaint.

NewTrain.7549:

Your entire response is based upon the flawed premise that everything in the world can be divided into two categories; important and not important.

No. My argument began in response to your use of, “important” in that way. My position has been one of varying degrees of importance from my first response to your posts in this thread. Had you referred to other’s opinion of dueling as being not as important as other elements I would have never responded to you. Instead you stated that dueling was not important to them at all.

NewTrain.7549:

Therefore the use of “not as important” or “not that important” is perfectly valid

Of course it is. Such was part of my point. I made that point in the post you are responding to here.

NewTrain.7549:

This simple fact negates your entire argument.

How can a fact that I am arguing, which you repeat here, negate itself ?

Galen Grey.4709:

Sure agreed, but can you point at one thing I stated is not fun? Cause afaik I really didnt.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting your point when you make statements to the effect that rewards do not, and have never, made content fun as a statement that the rewards are not fun. My assumption was that something that adds fun must be fun in itself (subjectively of course). So if rewards cannot add fun, for anyone, ever, then they cannot be fun for anyone, ever…or at least that was my take on some of your very absolute claims here.

Galen Grey.4709:

I would genuinely be interested in reading this study, you have a link or some pointers on how I can find it?

I attended a series of seminars for extra credit back in the mid 80’s where the topic (obviously not specific to MMOs) was addressed as part of a larger discussion of human motivation. I cannot find reference to it online and have not kept the material. As I cannot support the claim I will drop it.

Galen Grey.4709:

so then if didnt yourself experience a situation where a boring task become fun thanks to rewards associated with it is it safe for me to assume your whole argument is from observing other people or this study you mentioned above?

You have it backwards. I experienced plenty of situations where I enjoyed a task that would have been boring without the associated rewards. I have interacted with others whose experience was comparable to mine.

What is the basis for your argument that you know everyone’s subjective experience of what is fun for them ?

NewTrain.7549:

You self-contradict in your first two paragraphs.

My apologies. My post should have said, “I was making no such argument,” rather than, “I am making no such argument,” as I made no such argument in the post where you claimed I did. I did not entertain the notion until after you made the claim.

NewTrain.7549:

On your second point, it is not logical to purchase an MMO because it someday might contain a feature you find important, especially when competing products do contain said feature. If the presence or lack of that feature is not a deciding factor in your purchase, it follows that it’s not that important.

I disagree. If GW2 has 9 out of the ten features that I find important to my enjoyment of an MMO but other games that do include the one missing from GW2 have only 8 of those ten features it is completely logical to choose GW2 over the other options, perhaps with the hop of encouraging the developer to add the tenth.

NewTrain.7549:

You next section is another non-sequitur. Clearly long hairstyles are not that important to you as it failed to make or break your purchase.

I provided an example of how something that is important to me in the game was not sufficient to override other elements, multiple such, without changing the fact that it is important. Keep in mind that there is a rather large difference between your previous assertions of, “not important,” and the current assertions of, “not as important,” or, “not that important.”

NewTrain.7549:

Would you buy a car without brakes? No. Why? Brakes are an important feature. Would you buy a car that in a color you didn’t particularly like? Perhaps, if everything else met your standards. Why? Because color isn’t nearly as important as brakes are.

I am not sure of the applicability of this example. It is illegal (at least in my state) to sell a car without brakes. I am not sure that comparing illegal activity to car color is particularly valid. Still, of course brakes are more important than color, doesn’t mean that color is unimportant. Really the entire discussion is altered by the change from your previous stance of, “not important,” to one of, “not as important as X.” I do not disagree at all that multiple elements, each of importance to the consumer, might even so be of varying degree of importance. Again, for me, choosing to buy a game that has 9/10 of the elements I desire does not mean that the tenth element is not important, merely that no one element overrides all of the others.

NewTrain.7549:

It follows that if a feature is important enough to your enjoyment of a product you will either: A) purchase a product with contains that feature as a basic one or pay an additional fee to add it to an already owned product. This is not opinion, this is fact.

No, it is an opinion. People settle all of the time. They then complain because they are not satisfied with the product. Neither you, nor I, get to decide what another person finds important.

NewTrain.7549:

It’s one of the basic tenants of economics. It’s called demand.

Not really. People demand things that are not important to them all of the time. Demand means that people are willing to buy something, not that they consider it important.

NewTrain.7549:

I understand what you’re saying, but you’re trying to argue that it’s logical to purchase a product based on what it could potentially become and not what it actually is.

First, I am making no such argument. People make illogical purchases all of the time. Its commonplace. In my experience people make purchase decision illogically more often than they do logically. Look at our food choices, soda, cigarettes, alcohol, etc.

Second, the MMO genre is, to some degree, based on what the game may become rather than what it is. They launch with bugs and we are supposed to expect fixes. They launch with less content than their predecessors and we expect them to grow. They launch without features that we expect to be added in time. I would argue that it is illogical, or just plain poor consumerism to buy an MMO without the expectation that it will change, grow, etc. Aren’t there entire sections of the TOS/licensing agreement included for just that reason ?

If we were buying MMOs based solely on what they are rather than what they are and what they might become we would be fools to buy them at all in my opinion.

NewTrain.7549:

To me, that’s a completely illogical position. Why would any purchase anything when there’s only a possibility that it might satisfy your demand ESPECIALLY when there are competing products that do satisfy your demand.

Probably because the player’s desire encompasses more than just dueling. Perhaps those other games do not meet the player’s desires in the other ten or twenty ways he measures his satisfaction with an MMO of choice. I would like some additional (long) hairstyles for male humans. I have requested such since before launch. I will continue to make the request (or support others making the same request). By your logic I should not have bought GW2, which has many aesthetic and game play elements that I very much appreciate, because one particular hairstyle option is not available. That seems very illogical to me.

NewTrain.7549:

refusing to pay extra for it as an added feature after launch proves it’s of little importance to the poster

It proves nothing of the sort. Your statement does imply that you believe that paying for something is the only way to demonstrate its importance to oneself. I can assure you that not everyone shares that view (right or wrong).

juno.1840:

Dafomen.7892:

If a company has to completely neglect its existing customers because its reaching for a new market with new customers, I doubt that company is capable to handle that at all.

+1. I was trying to say this, but u did a better job. Players shouldn’t expect to be put on hold just because the devs are trying to tap a completely unrelated market. China should not effect us in NA at all, but it is.

It is completely reasonable, in my opinion, for Anet to have gone into quiet mode while pushing for the China release. The problem, again in my opinion, is that they did so on the heels of a major release that had such potential for impacting the existing player base.

This was just a matter of poor scheduling more than anything else.

NewTrain.7549:

This is a non-sequitur. I made no mention of intention (or not) to include after launch. We’re discussing basic features. When something is claimed as a “basic feature” it means something included with the product at the time of initial purchase for no extra cost. It was very clear dueling was not a basic feature of GW2.

The individual you quoted stated that he believed that dueling should be free. He made no claim of, “false advertising,” or, “basic feature.” I pointed out that other playable content, as well as QOL features added post launch, were implemented without additional cost for players as precedent for adding dueling as a free option.

Personally I think the idea of a small gem store cost for an open world duel flag option would be reasonable. A dueling option would have some development costs that this option could help offset, which in turn could offset non-duelist complaints about resources spent on this endeavor. This would also make accepting duels impossible for those who have not purchased the option reducing the incentive for someone inclined to harass others in an effort to get a duel to be abusive in that manner. And who knows, perhaps some additional cost for the option would make someone (maybe not all potential trolls, but some) think before acting up ?

NewTrain.7549:

But it wasn’t there in the first place and it was obvious it wasn’t there. There was no false advertising, it was stated dueling would not be in the game at launch, yet you bought it anyway.

I did not see any mention that dueling was intended to not be included in the game by a dev. I have seen a dev post indicating that they desire to put dueling into the game. Someone seeing that might subsequently buy the game with the expectation that they would, at some point, possibly have the option to engage in open world dueling in GW2.

Stating that something will not be included for launch does not mean that it is not intended to be included ever.

Then again the Teq revamp did not exist at launch, nor did Southsun, nor the living story, guild halls, the account wallet, etc. Any content released post launch by definition did not exist at launch…

Atlas.9704:

Within the context of these threads its always pointed towards other players.

One of the arguments used as an attempt to counter requests for open world dueling with some degree of frequency is that it is somehow in conflict with the game’s lore. The reference to dueling NPC’s is a reasonable, in my opinion, counter to that counter. The game’s lore accepts the concept of individuals engaging in duels in the open world.

Scrambles.2604:

who complains about ascended? I remember a lot of resistance before it came out, but now that it’s here i didn’t realize there were any issues with it.

I do.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Beyond that, some people are GW1 vets, and it didn’t have dueling and did just fine. Some would like to see the continuance of that trend.

GW1 didn’t have an open world in which to duel. Continuing that trend would require restricting zones to an eight player cap (with two specific exceptions).

Galen Grey.4709:

How is that defining fun? defining something means stating what it is. IE if I said doing jumping puzzles is fun thats defining fun. but stating a reward will not make an activity and more or less fun is not defining anything that’s an observation.

By stating that something is not fun, a reward for example, you are defining fun as not including that thing.

Galen Grey.4709:

How do you know these people are having fun doing the content rather then just happy with the reward though? cause there is a crucial difference there.

I know that studies have shown this. Enjoyment of an activity, the activity itself, can be influenced by the associated rewards. An activity that might otherwise be boring can become enjoyable due to associated rewards.

Galen Grey.4709:

Completely agree but please note I never defined grind. I never said doing X is grindy. I simply went with the basic definition of grind IE boring repetitive task. That can be Questing, PvP, gathering, Crafting whatever doesnt matter.

Its good to know what you enjoyed but I would be more interested what aspects of Gw1 or Gw2 find boring and if you truely thing you’ll start enjoying that same content you find boring right now if a good reward is tied to that (whatever that may be for you as obviously good rewards are subjective too)

I did not find any aspect, that I can recall, of playing either game to be boring.

I don’t remember who mentioned it first but I would like to commend the poster who suggested that auto-decline be the default setting if open world dueling is implemented. Having dueling be an opt-in rather than an opt-out function is a great idea in my opinion.

DaShi.1368:

He’s already been reported, but I’m not going to post other people’s pms. If you choose not to believe me, that’s your choice. Dueling just brings out the worst in people. The way you treat others in this thread demonstrates this further.

You refer to, “he,” seemingly indicating that it was a single individual. And yet you refer, in the previous post, to harassing PMs from a, “crowd.” Attempting to portray an entire group of people, not really even a group of people so much as an otherwise unconnected collection of individuals who happen to have one interest in common, as responsible for the actions of a single individual is a bit off don’t you think ?

Are there duelists that behave poorly ? Yeah there are. Is that because they are duelists ? No, its because they are people and people sometimes behave poorly. There is no activity in this game that is free of people who sometimes behave poorly.

I don’t think that going free to play is necessarily an indication of the quality of a game. In an environment where there are dozens or more options, many of which have no cost for entry, it seems likely that even a good game is going to struggle to grab and hold onto a sizable portion of an increasingly fragmented MMO player base while charging a sub fee.

I don’t think that even the 800 lb gorilla of the MMO market would survive being launched as a pure subscription based game today.

Galen Grey.4709:

I am not defining what is grind or what is fun for other people

Actually yes you are. In the following statement you define whether or not someone will find an activity more (or less) fun.

Galen Grey.4709:

the reward will not make the activity itself any more or less fun

I completely understand that rewards may not make an activity more fun to you…but what is or is not fun for you has no bearing whatsoever on what someone you do not know finds fun.

You may not have encountered them but there are people out there for whom the rewards are an inherent and integral part of whether or not something is fun. The act of winning the drop lottery, or accumulating in game wealth, or the like is actually fun for them.

As to grind…what is grind to you may not be to me. For example, I rather enjoyed certain GW1 solo farms that my friends considered too much of a grind to bother with. For me the very same repetitive activity that bored others were an interesting challenge to improve my completion times, increase my kill rate, etc. Managing to knock three seconds off my best time was FUN ! The rewards (more than fifteen thousand ectos) didn’t hurt either.

Algreg.3629:

Your next trick is telling us over and over again that we are not afraid of the actual duels, but of harassment. Which technically is true. But that is the same as saying “hey, you are afraid of the gun. That is stupid, guns are harmless, you need to be afraid of the bullets”. And you keep denying that harassment can be a – CAN BE, NOT HAS TO BE (which noone claimed) – likely consequence of declining a duel request.

This analogy does not work because bullets are an integral part of a gun’s intended purpose. Harassment is not an inherent part of dueling, and certainly seems to be unlikely to be an intended design element of dueling.

The reality is that any content or feature option added to the game may or will have the potential for being used to grief other players. Do we advocate for the cessation of all content development as a result?

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

@Devata

sorry I disagree rewards absolutely do not make content fun. Never did never will, they may make it worth while but they’re never going to make it fun. If you hate say PvP you’re not going to find it fun just cause doing it will get you a legendary. You may be happy to endure it cause you really want a legendary but you’re still not going to find it enjoyable.

You might want to consider replacing the word, “you,” with, “I,” in a couple of places there. You might not find rewards to affect the fun factor of something but other people will. For some people a sense of reward is intrinsically tied to experiencing fun. This is not an uncommon psychological phenomenon. It does not mean that a sufficient reward will always overcome distaste for a given activity in terms of having fun for these people, but reward is still an inherent and all but inseparable part of fun for them.

I disagree else people would never complain about grind in any game. Why? 2 important factors, if a grinding activity doesnt have a desirable reward no one would do it. if a desirable reward makes content fun then no one would consider it grindy.

going with an example in game, ascended gear is desirable enough that people feel they have to have it thus not only they feel they cannot simply skip it altogether but its desirable so much they have to earn it as soon possible. Yet they complain about the grind they need to endure (grind that in most cases can be perfectly skipped entirely since you get all the stuff you need for your ascended gear by playing the content you want to play yet people dont do that because it is obviously considerable slower to do that). Hence I feel this is a pretty clear example of how the reward doesnt make the content fun here but actually quite the opposite the reward is driving people from the content they feel is fun to content they feel is boring.

I am sorry but you are wrong. The fact that some people consider something grindy despite associated rewards does not mean that everyone does. The, “they,” to whom you keep referring are not everyone. For some people the rewards associated with content influence or even completely determine whether or not they perceive of it as fun.

The fact that rewards do not determine whether or not something is fun for some, or even most, people is completely irrelevant to whether or not some people do. Most people are not colorblind, that does not mean that no one is.

Behellagh.1468:

if such functionality was so important to you then why play a game that doesn’t have it?

The game does not currently have new content created post April 2014, does that mean that people for whom content addition, whether through LS or expansion, is important should leave the game ? Does it mean that new content should not be added because the game did not launch with it ? How about new skills, classes, weapons, armor skins, etc ?

eisberg.2379:

Not every change is going to make everyone happy, so the object is to make the majority happy. I have a feeling that the majority of the players like the Mega servers…

Anyways, you should not have posted this thread, you should have just put your feedback into the Mega Server feedback thread. This thread will either be closed or locked.

Unless you are referring to a different feedback thread than the one I saw this thread predates the other feedback thread by a couple of weeks.

Beldin.5498:

Ashen.2907:

Teon.5168:

Ashen.2907:

Crafting is a grind. There is absolutely nothing enjoyable involved. It is a detestable chore.

I am not sure how anyone could call crafting a grind. At least leveling one from 0-400. If you have the gold(around 25g), you can go from 0-400 in around an hour. http://www.gw2crafts.net

And if you don’t have the gold, you can still level it at your convenience, using the crafting leveling guides as to what you need to pick up or how much gold you’ll need for a specific part. I suppose if you weren’t using any sort of guide, the crafting could get frustrating as you would have to keep looking at items, how to make them, what was required, etc…….but that is what the guides are for online…..to help make it all easier.

Now if you’re crafting ascended items, yea, I will agree…it becomes a bit of a grind just because of the 1 day timer the game imposes on crafting that stuff, and how costly it is to get a crafter to 500. 400-500 is extremely expensive and can take awhile if you need to farm the stuff needed.

Again, though, crafting in this game is a lot easier than a lot of the older mmorpgs. I remember one I played where you would sit around for hours watching tv mashing a button, waiting for your crafter to make one item and get 1 point……and this went on for weeks and weeks before you got a master level crafter. It was absolutely excruciatingly boring……I would have rather watched grass grow.

As others have said in this thread……the grindy elements of this game are completely optional and not required, unless you’re one of those players that just must have all the bells and whistles……but that is the player’s choice, and that choice carries consequences, e.g. grinding/farming, with it.

I could also see someone calling this game a grind if all they did to level was to kill npcs all day long. (When there are so many different ways to level/gain xp in this game)

Crafting is a grind, for me, because it is a repetitious detestable chore behind which desirable elements are gated. I completely understand that others feel differently about it but keep in mind that others would not consider leveling through combat (killing NPCs) to be grindy.

In general I dont expect that anyone considers a task that they enjoy to be a grind unless the amount of that task required makes it no longer enjoyable.

Next people start to call Character Creation a grind, since it takes soooo long, and is gating you from playing the game

Nice stretch.

Astralporing.1957:

Lambent.6375:

And if someone in CS said they were their to farm, that doesn’t tell the whole story because some people play the game for the sake of farming, while others view farming as something negative.

Yes, there are people that actually like grinding. It doesn’t make the grind disappear however.

I think that if they like something it isnt a grind for them. At least from my experience, grind is a negative term. If something is not a negative for someone then a negative label doesn’t really apply for them.

I, for example, love cursed shore. Its probably my favorite portion of the game. To me it is not ugly or boring.

Wasbunny.6531:

Zenith.6403:

Seabreeze.8437:

If you think all MMO’s are dull, then what in the heck are you doing posting in an MMO forum? Why do you even have an account for that matter? For crying out loud, go find something else to do!

- And if you hate MMOs then you REALLY wanna check out Guild Wars 2 !

http://youtu.be/35BPhT-KI1E?t=42s

Thanks for the link never saw that one before. No idea what your point was but thanks all the same.

Here’s another one:

Guild Wars 2 Angry Joe Review

His point was to respond to the question about why he would even own an account for GW2 if he does not normally like MMOs. The game was advertised as being particularly desirable for or targeted at people who do not normally like MMOs.

Galen Grey.4709:

@Devata

sorry I disagree rewards absolutely do not make content fun. Never did never will, they may make it worth while but they’re never going to make it fun. If you hate say PvP you’re not going to find it fun just cause doing it will get you a legendary. You may be happy to endure it cause you really want a legendary but you’re still not going to find it enjoyable.

You might want to consider replacing the word, “you,” with, “I,” in a couple of places there. You might not find rewards to affect the fun factor of something but other people will. For some people a sense of reward is intrinsically tied to experiencing fun. This is not an uncommon psychological phenomenon. It does not mean that a sufficient reward will always overcome distaste for a given activity in terms of having fun for these people, but reward is still an inherent and all but inseparable part of fun for them.

naiasonod.9265:

Yeah yeah yeah. You don’t spend 4-5 hours a week getting to the raids though.

In this case, the grind in GW2 is almost purely elective. Cosmetic-oriented, not function gated.

Nobody has to drive themselves halfway insane in GW2 to get to have very nice gear,

Isnt what you do to get to the raiding in WoW essentially playing the game? Leveling up ? I only played WoW to about 62 (took about a month as I recall) and never got into raiding, so I am not sure.

In order to get the nice gear to enjoy playing GW2, ascended (Im looking at needing three full sets plus seven weapons), with the drop rate as it is, I am facing potentially years of grind to finally have my character back to where he was a few months after launch. Half way insane ? Probably not (though my wife might disagree), but still a concern.

Currently the bad outweighs the good (for me). Hopefully that will change eventually.

FYI, if you have to resort to broad generalization and labeling that opinions which differ from yours are unintelligent it gives the impression, to me at least, that your position is indefensible or without merit., or that you just dont care enough about your own position to bother.

Teon.5168:

Ashen.2907:

Crafting is a grind. There is absolutely nothing enjoyable involved. It is a detestable chore.

I am not sure how anyone could call crafting a grind. At least leveling one from 0-400. If you have the gold(around 25g), you can go from 0-400 in around an hour. http://www.gw2crafts.net

And if you don’t have the gold, you can still level it at your convenience, using the crafting leveling guides as to what you need to pick up or how much gold you’ll need for a specific part. I suppose if you weren’t using any sort of guide, the crafting could get frustrating as you would have to keep looking at items, how to make them, what was required, etc…….but that is what the guides are for online…..to help make it all easier.

Now if you’re crafting ascended items, yea, I will agree…it becomes a bit of a grind just because of the 1 day timer the game imposes on crafting that stuff, and how costly it is to get a crafter to 500. 400-500 is extremely expensive and can take awhile if you need to farm the stuff needed.

Again, though, crafting in this game is a lot easier than a lot of the older mmorpgs. I remember one I played where you would sit around for hours watching tv mashing a button, waiting for your crafter to make one item and get 1 point……and this went on for weeks and weeks before you got a master level crafter. It was absolutely excruciatingly boring……I would have rather watched grass grow.

As others have said in this thread……the grindy elements of this game are completely optional and not required, unless you’re one of those players that just must have all the bells and whistles……but that is the player’s choice, and that choice carries consequences, e.g. grinding/farming, with it.

I could also see someone calling this game a grind if all they did to level was to kill npcs all day long. (When there are so many different ways to level/gain xp in this game)

Crafting is a grind, for me, because it is a repetitious detestable chore behind which desirable elements are gated. I completely understand that others feel differently about it but keep in mind that others would not consider leveling through combat (killing NPCs) to be grindy.

In general I dont expect that anyone considers a task that they enjoy to be a grind unless the amount of that task required makes it no longer enjoyable.

lordkrall.7241:

Why do people keep claiming that they would roll them out slowly?
I am almost 100% certain that they said they would roll them out OVER TIME, which says nothing at all about the speed of the roll out.

I also do not recall seeing a post saying that they would roll them out slowly.

But, keep in mind that measuring something done, “over time,” is a measure of speed. Speed/velocity is, by definition, a measurement of movement over time.

So saying that they would roll them out over time did say something about the speed of the roll out. Unfortunately we do not know what that something is because slowly/quickly are subjective. One person might consider the roll out to have been too fast while another might have thought it was slow.

Wasbunny.6531:

This is actually a good point. Ascended armor is exclusively (excluding random drops) obtained by crafting. I suppose the actual process of getting crafting to 500 fits the first part of this definition since it’s a singular limiting factor, with no other options.

It is not required however to have ascended gear in order to experience other game modes beyond high level fractals, as I detailed in my post. It is a cost in time and/or gold, not a requirement.

There is no real difference between, “a cost in time and/or gold,” and, “a requirement.” A cost is a requirement that must be met in order to attain something. If something costs $10 then you are required to pay $10 in order to get it.

Also keep in mind that it may in fact be a requirement to have ascended gear in order to experience other game modes beyond high level fractals. Perhaps not for you, but for others it may very well be the case.

Wasbunny.6531:

This is where the logic falls apart.

Everything in this or any other game is acquired through time, currency or both. This is the cost of getting something you want in the game.

It appears that you are arguing that nothing can be considered grind because things that people consider grind are merely the cost of getting what they want in a game. The grindiest element of the grindiest game ever created would not be considered grind because it is just the cost in time to acquire what the player desires.

Wasbunny.6531:

If you want to play a variety of game modes in ascended gear (as I do actually) there is a cost in time & gold to do so. This is a self imposed goal as is anything else in the game. It is not required, but it is also not free. There is a huge amount of options for obtaining the materials necessary to get crafting to 500 & crafting the gear. Literally doing the variety of content you enjoy will get you all you need.

Crafting is a grind. There is absolutely nothing enjoyable involved. It is a detestable chore.

Wasbunny.6531:

Example: If I enjoy doing a variety of content while having my character only using Abyss dye there is a cost in time/gold to get Abyss. I wouldn’t call the process of scraping up enough gold an artificially imposed grind of any sort. It’s a cost that I agree to pay, and there are countless ways to get to my goal. It is also not required that I have Abyss dye to play any part of the game.

Perhaps your example is not a requirement. Then again your example was not advertised as a selling point of the game as was the case for my example.

Wasbunny.6531:

Of course feel free to offer any other definition of ‘grind’, it just needs to be the starting point in any discussion; to define the terms.

I am comfortable continuing to use your definition. I do not know that GW2 is the most grindy game, etc, but your definition shows (IMO) that it has grindy elements.

Wasbunny.6531:

Every time one of threads surfaces it’s the same story, the word ‘grind’ is thrown around without any time taken to define what that means.

The first step in qualifying if something meets the definition of ‘grindy’ is to define your terms. So step 1: define your terms.

This is how I’d define ‘grind’ in an mmo context:

Grind: Having limited options of attaining something that is required in order to participate in a particular part of the game. The player is thus forced to do a specific repetitive task in order to have access to other parts of the game.

Grind does not simply mean anything with a cost in either time or gold.

So let’s look at what could fall into the ‘grind’ category in GW2. Anything purchasable by in-game gold/gems can be ruled out since gold can be obtained through literally any activity in the game, including exchanging real life cash for gold/gems.

So we are left with only one thing that could potentially fall under the definition of ‘grind’; ascended gear, which can’t be 100% obtained through in-game currency. Some required components for crafting ascended gear cannot be traded so can’t simply be bought using gold. These ascended materials are however available in every game type, from jumping puzzle chests to WvW, spvp, dungeons etc. So definitely does not meet the definition of ‘limited’.

There is no content in the game that requires ascended gear. The one exception to this is high level fractals, due to AR infusions only available in ascended armor. High level fractals requiring ascended armor is the closest thing to the definition of ‘grind’ so far, since it is practically a requirement to have for the agony resistance alone.

The ascended armor requirement for playing higher level fractals does not meet the other part of the definition of ‘grind’ however since the methods of obtaining the gear is virtually unlimited, and are often gathered from simply doing the actual lower level fractals.

So in answer to the OPs original question if GW2 is the most ‘grindy’ game ever, the answer by definition is no. In my experience with mmos it’s actually the least ‘grindy’ game I’ve ever played.

This is an excellent post. It does a wonderful job of explaining your subjective take on grind. I might suggest adding the word, “my,” to the following sentence,

“So in answer to the OPs original question if GW2 is the most ‘grindy’ game ever, the answer by my definition is no.”

Even by your definition though some of what you have defined as not being grind can still be described as grind. For example:

You claim that crafting ascended gear is not grind because the means of gaining the materials is not limited to a single activity. But, actually producing the gear requires participation in a single activity, crafting.

As to, “Having limited options of attaining something that is required in order to participate in a particular part of the game,” the part of the game that I enjoy, in which I desire to participate, is playing a variety of content while my character is equipped with BiS gear. In order to participate in this particular part of the game, one that ANet designed as integral to the game by implementing gear based performance, it is required that I attain ascended gear. There are limited options to do so.

By your own definition GW2 can be/is grindy.

My concern(s) regarding this issue are not that there are bugs and general problems with the update. Major updates in this field often require significant amounts of fine tuning over a period of time after they go live. I am also not inclined to consider it a major issue if a development team cuts back on their customer communication for a couple of (or a few) weeks in order to launch a new title or the existing title in a new market. Those last few weeks before a major launch are an all hands on deck crunch like virtually no other. People who do not get paid overtime may very well be working 12 and 16 hour shifts.

What I do take issue with is the combination of the two circumstances. Launching something that you know is going to adversely affect your customers at a time when you know you are not going to be able to properly address their concerns or the problems themselves due to other commitments is bad service.

It wasnt a surprise for Anet that there were problems with the update and that it would have further unforeseen issues (or at least it should not have been a surprise). It also was not (or should not have been) a surprise that the China launch would mean being very busy. What is surprising is that a AAA studio would allow those two points to come into conflict.

timmyf.1490:

Imagine a restaurant that seats 50 being filled with 200 people. 25 like the food. 150 are complaining about the food. 25 are threatening to punch the chef.

Now the 150 keep complaining that the chef isn’t walking around the restaurant to listen to their complaints.

Edit: forgot to note… the chef is in the back trying to fix the food for the 150 who are complaining…

Another very interesting response. It implies that:

1) GW2 can only handle 25% (50/200) of its current population.
2) 87% (175/200) of the players are dissatisfied with the game.
3) GW2 has only one dev.

ANet built the game. They sold the game. If the game could not handle more than X number of customers they probably should not have sold many multiples of that many copies of the game.

If 87% of your playerbase are dissatisfied with your service then the problem might not be with the players.

If there are not enough employees to post some meaningful responses to customer concerns (except in the German forums apparently) without taking 100% of the developers away from game development…the game is in more serious trouble than anything on these forums can really even begin to hint at.

Beldin.5498:

Then it will take you maybe 20 or 50 years in PWI to level to 105.

I doubt it. If it is attainable through game play then I expect I would get it in a time frame similar to others’ experiences. If it requires crafting then I would never get it.

In order to get a full set of ascended gear I am likely to need several years worth of appropriate kill rewards. Sure I could get lucky and get the drops one after another in a single day of play, but the odds are very much stacked against that.

tolunart.2095:

It’s more like a small group of customers going to the restaurant’s Facebook page and demanding that the waitstaff post recipes, share the planned menu changes for the next year, and make changes such as serving an entirely different kind of food (a classic Italian restaurant offering hot dogs and cheeseburgers, for example), then loudly and constantly complaining when they don’t get their way.

Not really.

Customers are having their service, as it has existed for a period measured in years, negatively affected and/or interrupted. Asking for the service to continue to be delivered in a manner consistent with its past delivery is not even close to your analogy. Even if there are people who fit your analogy the simple fact is that people who are merely asking for a continuation of service are not having their concerns addressed.

tolunart.2095:

There’s a difference between constructive criticism and noise.

Unfortunately ANet does not seem to agree with you as they are treating both types of response in exactly the same manner.

Nimarrna.5924:

GW2 is NOT a grindy game.

Just for an example, i played PWI.That game has 105 levels and you needed almost a year (normal play) to get you’r character to that level…1 character.Or you could grind the same dungeon all day long for xp.That would take you to 105 in 5-6 months.

After reaching level 100-105,you would need gear!

But why farm for it when all the dungeon gear (that takes 2-3 months to farm) is worthless in comparison to the CASH SHOP GEAR you can buy straight from the item mall for 1.5k $ …….but wait…we still need shards and the gear has to be + 12 or at least + 10……..these things cost another thousand dollars (so you have to pay 2.5k $ for endgame gear)…..OR if you don’t want to buy all this stuff you could still farm a dungeon and sell the materials for ingame gold which could be converted into item mall currency.

You would be farming the same dungeons over and over and over again for 1 year+ just to be on par with the cash shoppers,otherwise you would get killed by 1-2 skills without even bein able to scratch their armor.

That is grind.Grind for levels,for armor,for anything you need to have in order to compete with others.

GW2 never felt like a grind to me. Just by leveling and reaching 80,i get enough gold to buy a whole set of exotics,runes and everything else that is needed.

If you want a legendary or cosmetics you have to put in more work.That’s how it is.Those things are optional, and it’s your choice to get them or not.

Hmm, getting a full set of ascended will take me longer (potentially years) than what you describe as a grind in PWI, and it is required to be on par with someone else who has it.

timmyf.1490:

Templar’s post above me – which I assume will quickly be removed as he expresses his desire to physically attack ArenaNet employees – is exactly the kind of post I’m talking about.

Until this community gets rid of this kind of crap, ArenaNet employees will likely limit their posting on these boards.

Totally unacceptable.

This is an interesting point of view. In any other industry it would be considered inappropriate, poor service, and just plain bad business, to limit addressing one customer’s concerns because a completely different customer was a jerk.

Imagine going to a restaurant and having your food prepared incorrectly only to have the staff or even management brush your concerns off because a different customer was rude the day before.

The Pointless.3869:

Daxxter.8920:

Well kitten me, I may not be the brightest bulb of the bunch but even I can see that you can’t consider LS as content…

In all fairness, by this very logic, a game you missed out on and cannot obtain again isn’t a game. A book that has fallen out of print before you could obtain a copy is not a book. A TV show that no channel can be bothered to rerun is not a TV show (this would absolutely kill soap operas).

It’s like saying the Eiffel Tower doesn’t exist if you haven’t seen it with your own eyes as opposed to though other media.

Not really. Something which once existed but no longer does is best described with the verb, “was,” or, “were,” rather than, “is,” or, “are.”

Aspects of the LS were content. They no longer are. “Content,” is something that is currently contained by the container. GW2 is the container but it no longer contains certain things and so those things are no longer among its content.

The Eiffel Tower, “is,” currently in existence.
A TV show that no longer exists, “was,” a TV show, but no longer, “is.”
A book that no longer exists, “was,” a book, but no longer, “is.”
A game that no longer exists, “was,” a game.

I think I would need to see a second LS season in on order to feel comfortable making a decision. Seeing what ANet learned from season one and the result of that lesson would be the basis of my decision. I would be particularly interested in seeing their response to the outcry against temporary content.

To me bad content is bad content regardless of whether it is delivered as part of an expansion or a LS season.

Phadde.7362:

Ashen.2907:

Phadde.7362:

more Dungeons, different structured PvE challenges, more sPvP game modes, more items, etc.

These are not mutually exclusive with leveling. There is no reason that more dungeons, structured PvE challenges, etc cannot be implemented along the leveling process.

You’re right. What I meant was that without leveling, the developers would have had an absurd amount of additional time on their hands to make the game a lot more fleshed out =)

I may not be understanding you correctly.

Content created at level 80 does not seem likely to take less dev time than content created at level 40. Levels are essentially just behind the scenes numbers designed to create a perception of progression. 40 or 80 you are activating skills on your skill bar in order to defeat mob 124356, right ?

phys.7689:

fact is very few events created by anet actually play well with this many people.

Such a very good point all too often overlooked in the discussion.

Phadde.7362:

more Dungeons, different structured PvE challenges, more sPvP game modes, more items, etc.

These are not mutually exclusive with leveling. There is no reason that more dungeons, structured PvE challenges, etc cannot be implemented along the leveling process.

Donari.5237:

They deliberately left it out and created the TP instead, to reduce scamming. If you trade on the honor system then it’s on you if the other person cheats you.

I wonder if the real reason was to reduce scamming rather than to more readily apply a surcharge to all trades in order for the basic function of an economy to act as a gold sink.