Exaggerating? I spvp so no wvw scrubs skimping on condi removal utilities. You have no other vulnerability on a short cool down. Ele bunker with earth´s embrace trait for stability will laugh at conditions with ether renewal. Null field keeps removing conditions, and mesmers trait for condi removal on shatter often. Ranger with signet of renewal and empathic bond is pretty much immune to condition stacking.
Condi specs are rather screwed in this game relative to power/prec/critdmg specs. I only run focus when I´m on a debunkering spec for the extra boon stripping.
sPvP is full of scrubs. People who use sPvP to talk about builds are scrubs. No one on any team in tourney’s or spvp or wvwvw wastes it on Vulnerabilyt. Btw, axe 1 applies 2 stacks of vuln constantly so you make take my stack of 15 off, but now I have 6, now 10. Now someone else just applied a stack of 20 bleeds, but you have 10 seconds before you can cleanse conditions again. With Focus offhand I just stripped your buffs, now you have no buffs wasted your condition cleans on a 12 stack of vuln, so now I can apply chill without a worry.
Now you die because you are spending cooldowns foolishly
In GW2, I don’t think its so much of an issue for a necro. Sure it makes you visually a bigger target, but it isn’t generally that difficult for people to see even a tiny asura and target them, even in big WvW zergs.
Especially if you just want to be a norn (I really dislike asura’s anyway), just go for it.
It’s the teeth, man! The teeth just make them so creepy!
I play a Charr Necro – it’s only unfair in jumping puzzles where the stupid 4 legged jump is diconcerting.
Asura may give you a small advantage to not being seen, but in reality it won’t matter much in a fight against smart players.
haha! I am down with it!! Who is on tonight around 6pm PST. I am going to CoF and CoE, and maybe Arah if I don’t fall over! Who wants to join the MM Necro for a full necro run?
lol, that’s the spirit. I’d join but you sound too dungeon pro next to me (dungeon noob), and I’ve done something a bit crazy atm. (had 880+ish hours on necro – less than 8hrs in dungeons i think -, full maps, 6 or 7 exotic sets, weapons,etc . the works excluding dungeon sets, obviously….and… i deleted it to go from human to norn haha. better culturals and tattoos :P. Hit 80 couple of nights ago, rare weapons and 1 cleric set so far)
I’d hope for something simpler myself than CoF CoE, and leave that to you guys for now (kitten OP fire xD)
I appreciate the compliment, but I am by no means a dungeon pro. My guild on the other hand knows every trick in the book. I do more bad dungeon team runs than good ones. Last night I did CoF p3 with 3 brand new to CoF guys and 1 guy who was teaching them. We had a great time because they listened to advice and did their best to focus fire on target.
In terms of easy mode dungeon runs it goes in this order I am pretty sure.
CoF 1-3
AC 1&2
CM 1-3 (Seraph is annoying and can be a bit rough at times, but not that bad)
SE 1-3 (cake walks)
AC 3
Arah (2)
HoTW 1-3 (brutal at times, but once you know certain pulls not that bad)
Arah (1)
TA 1-2
CoE (1-3)
TA 3
Arah 3 – 4
Fractals are cake until lvl 10 and up, but even then I havent’ heard anything brutal
In the end CoF is a cake walk for anyone with a semblance of skill. Except the first boss on CoF 3 which requires coordination.
- Spectral Grasp – Only hits at 1200 range if opponent stands still. Misses extremely easily. Opponents on elevated areas are pulled behind you instead of in front.
Not really correct. Grasp leads the target and so it will hit them if they’re moving. Elevated targets aren’t always pulled behind me in w3. Come to think of it, that hasn’t happened for some time.
- Dark Path – Misses if opponent dodges before it’s even near them. Should only be dodge-able near hit.
This isn’t true…it is only dodgeable near hit.
- Spinal Shivers Cast Time – Chill of Death – “Cast Spinal Shivers on an enemy when they hit 25% health” is an instant cast which means this must be a bug because Spinal Shivers having a 1.25 second cast time is ridiculous.
So they saved some tooltip space by saying “cast” instead of “applies the effects of”. Who cares?
Nice trolling. You need to actually try these utilities before saying they work perfectly.
Seriously mate, where do you come from? lettuce is absolutely correct.
I have assigned at least 1 illusion to 2+ targets on numerous occasions
This only happens when the Illusion AI bugs out. It is not an intended mechanic. ANet has explicitly stated multiple times that Illusions are not meant to be able to target more than one mob/player, and when that mob/player dies the Illusion is supposed to die as well.
Also, Mesmer being my main, I can recount multiple times where I would summon an Illusion and it would just sit there doing nothing, or (as I mentioned before) it would attack some completely random target instead of the target it should have attacked.
These problems happen less frequently than they do with Minions, but that is because (as also mentioned before) the AI between the two is deliberately different. Illusions are only meant to attack one target and so their AI is a much more simplified code and so is less prone to bugs. This is why Illusions perform better than Minions.
Thank you for explaining it much more clearly than I was able too. I have a couple questions for you about mesmers but I will send you a pm about it ;p.
I run 4 builds at any time that are minion builds. The key is in what I feel like doing at that time
Orr and Survival Build – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAndWjEat61ama07JApHRT90TK8GcIF5KNA
Standard Dungeon – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAndWjEat61a+a07JApHRT90TK6GcIF5KNA
tPVP Boon Stripper – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAndWjEat61a+a07JApHRTd1TK8GcIF5KNA
Full on Damage Dungeon – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAndWjEat61a+a07JCJFRjaQPev0qFlC3tOA
(edited by Bas.7406)
Minion rates now:
Attack what you attack – 85% of the timeSeems like a dream level of success to me, I’ve personally not seen improvements at all besides them not attacking distant targets.
I’m extremely jealous of your minion’s attack rate if this is true.
The biggest issue I find that people have with minion builds and unresponsive is the use of ground targeting attacks (marks or scepter/dagger) or Axe 3 and expecting the minions to figure out your main attack. If you begin each battle with a single target attack you will find a higher success rate.
I usually start with axe2 and then go from there.
I would say my success rate on a good day is 90 percent in pve and 65-70 percent (flesh golem mainly) on a bad day. In pvp I am rarely under 90 percent success.
Bas, I think. I now realize, though, that it was probably a little insulting and for that I apologize.
Anyways, Engineers have a bag full of escape tools and should be listed at least in the middle for mobility. Perma Stealth thieves and D/D Elementalists still rule the roost there. But engies get perma swiftness, access to vigor in a few different ways, CAN stealth with some set up, have multiple ways of blocking damage and at least one way of becoming invulnerable off the top of my head. While stealth is tricky, they can still fully disengage with the right set up. While you can say the “right set up” is the problem, I think that exists for Eles and Thieves too. While the Necro doesn’t have any “right set up” to do the same.
You were not insulting at all. I have an 80 engineer, and play horribly with him. I was simply speaking in terms of access to the high mobility at all times. Even a staff ele has really strong mobility and escape through cantrips. Engineers in order to be as mobile as you say have to spec a specific way without alternating any single point. This isn’t a highly mobile class it’s just a class with access to mobility.
The problem that people see is that the thief and ele has access to high mobility while not sacrificing any damage to get it. They can both mobile and explosive. The engineer sacrifices a ton to pickup the highly mobile traits. Even in it’s highest mobile state the engineer cannot approach the Theif or elementalist in terms of ability to escape.
It however can approach and sometimes better the guardian and necro in terms of survival.
Anyway, my point is, why not start doing LFG threads here, hook up and go 5x necro runs? Would that work/be fun etc?
gw2lfg.com would work a lot better for getting a group together. Whenever I make a TA explorable post there I get like 8 join requests in the next 20 seconds. Just put “all necro” in the post title.
haha! I am down with it!! Who is on tonight around 6pm PST. I am going to CoF and CoE, and maybe Arah if I don’t fall over! Who wants to join the MM Necro for a full necro run?
Just don’t bother with minions and you’re good to go.
If you mean in Fractal 10 and up you are correct. In every other instance Minions are just as good as any other utility.
Necromancers aren’t useless, they just don’t bring quite as much of anything specific as other classes do. You trade off the ability to deal as much damage as a warrior or the healing of a guardian for the ability to do a little bit of everything while being extremely durable (assuming everything works perfectly).
Yes and No. We don’t bring as much of a Niche. Warriors/Thieves/Mesmers can all play a Niche and be extremely successful. However if I may give you an example of why a Necro wins.
I was running CoF (yes it’s a cake walk), and was kicked twice out of the group by a guardian and warrior before we ever started because I wasn’t a Warrior/Thief/Mesmer/Ele. They told me this at the very beginning. Finally the other two guys in the party told them to shut up, and let me play if I caused them to not be able to speed run it than they would replace me.
On the very first boss pull I rezzed 3 out of the 5 guys, and sat at 20 percent health (thank you minions siphon), on every other major damage pull, they all went down except me. I had to rez every single one of them repeatedly (the guardian was doing some odd not engaging until someone went down so he could rez thing).I got my daily done in one single CoF p1. We crushed it, and then we went into p2. Guess who out lived all of them in every single pull except 1? The Necro! Guess who kited the boss around when we lost the warrior? The Necro!
When the Mesmer dropped Time Warp, guess who he used as his targeting to drop it around? The Necro! Guess who was able to kite while destroying the turrets? The Necro! Guess who the guardian and warrior decided to say nothing to except Nice Run at the very end? The Necro!
In the end, attrition is a niche field. I never stop dealing damage to dodge, unless necessary, and in the end over an extended fight. They will deal the same amount of damage if you count dodges and breaking of combat.
The scepter is already argueably our best weapon, it doesn’t really need another buff.
I would also like to see staff one skill apply a bleed or some sort of DOT like the mesmers number 1 skill on their staff.
We probably don’t get any dots on the staff because we gain life-force on hit with it instead.
This is correct and should be plus 1. Many people forget that if you add conditions, you lose damage or bonuses that are added to it or the auto attack becomes the only attack worth doing.
Minions do crit but they don’t deal any bonus damage when they do, so I don’t think putrid explosion would deal bonus damage if it crit (the only instance where a minion deals bonus damage is when the flesh golem does his crippling attack which deals 1000 versus his normal 700). Even if it did, it wouldn’t be worth stacking crit as well/minion builds don’t have any effect on crit traits, and putrid explosion at most happens twice every 16 seconds. On top of that the bone minions idle somewhat often so you won’t always get both of your explosions.
in short it isn’t worth stacking crit in a minion well build as the build doesn’t really benefit from it as much as power.
Minions do not crit in the same sense we do. They have special attacks that deal more damage. It’s just not tied to yours. My flesh Golem will hit anywhere from 500 – 1200 depending on the hit. Flesh Wurm is your highest damage minion.
Going berzerker gear is the way to go with a minion build, because you still need to do damage on your own. The key is to remember that minions are the add on to your damage.
The only ability that buffs minion damage is Vulnerability and is the chief reason why Axe/Focus is the single best weapon combo to run with Minions.
I have been a minion master since beta, and have tried dozens of builds based on minions – sadly, none are very good, because the minions are STUPID!
They do not attack like they should, and many times they do not attack at all.
They do not follow you as closely as they should; they are too stupid to make small jumps (preferring to run the LONG way around).
The Golem’s charge can be blocked by the smallest stone or bare-edge of a structure.
So, go conditions or burst – at least until the minions get some brains.
This is all bull. At launch, most of these issues were prevalent. All of them are fixed except the not attacking as quickly as I would prefer.
They follow much closer now. When you jump off a cliff they do not run down, they will simply appear next to you. They will disengage from chasing a target if you switch targets or simply run away. The Golem’s charge works just like every other charge in the game, including RTL and every weapon charge.
Conditions are much more situational and have just as many bugs (corrupt boon, Plague signet, and so on) as Minion builds.
Seems like it’s not the minions that are stupid.
It’s a completely seperate concept. Illusions have their own issues, such as running into walls and getting stuck, being trapped and shooting at where the guy was and not where he is, and they used to run really slow.
Illusions are more like weapon abilities.
You also missed the one part about Illusions, they disappear if you change targets, and you ahve to start over again. If the trade off for keeping my Minion longer is that occassionally they bug out I will take it.
If you are comparing similar utilities please choose the correct ones to compare – Guardian Spirit Weapons, Ranger Spirit Pets, and Elementalist Elementals.
Compared to those three abilities which are our closest comparison we win.
@duckcheeps – good to see a necro running wvwvw and proving we are effective without condition builds. Just a couple of pointers.
1. You are correct Axe 2 is the single best weapon damage ability traited and berzer gear specced you can hit 8k damage before food. Dagger 2 at max will hit for about 3k.
2. Vulnerability stacking is the least admired condition not named Chill. It’s amazing, and almost no one uses a conditon cleans on vulnerability. It’s the only offset to toughness stacking.
3. Unless running 30 points in DS you should never hold DS until the end. Pop in hammer to 50 percent hit your Life Transfer Pop out, restack again. I believe that’s what you were saying, but it wasn’t clear.
“Whenever a minion dies, it explodes in a cloud of poison and confusion that lasts for 3 seconds.”
This would buff up some traits and give minion necromancers more access to damage and conditions.
Why would I want access to conditions as a MM. Axe/Focus is easily the best weapon for MM, and adding conditions to our abilities means they would have to change how the Minions scale, which would be a headache and a half. Not to mention there are Necro’s who don’t run with conditions.
You will recognize us, we are the ones killing you ;P.
I like confusion, and would love to have access to it, but not on Minons leave them for the power or tank builds.
Just remember we are an attrition class. People will love you when you prove you are good, but we don’t have all the flash of the Niche classes so it’s tough for people to figure out what we do well.
I play a Minion build which people scream is horrible, but they never do the actual homework to realize that they are wrong. The key here is that players in games are notoriously finicky, and have this initial belief that if they aren’t good at something than it’s not them it’s the class. My reply is always the same, “I am a horrible mesmer and thief, so they must be really underpowered”
If it was reduced in size, people would complain that it’s hard to see when you turn into the most powerful elite skill in the game.
I didn’t even think of that one, I used a fear build the other day in pvp. 1800 damage on a fear :P. It was awesome!
Honestly I would just like for enemies to not attack the Bone Fiend so often first… The Flesh Golem has the most HP and still make it a bigger threat to the enemy AI.
Yes, I watch my bone fiend get 1-shotted all the time even with the extra HP trait. I stopped bringing him in favor of the flesh worm as it is much more reliable, sturdy, and provides a stun breaker.
FLESH WURM!!!!
In dungeons I bring, Bone Fiend, Shadow Fiend, and Flesh Wurm – same with tpvp. In questing I swap Flesh Wurm for Bone Minions.
I said I used their activate abilities to get them to move, and many times they will just go back to standing around once finished. I chose staff for its aoe ability. I like to have it for any build because an aoe chill, fear, and cleanse are hard to live without. I didn’t know about the possibility of the auto attack bugging the minions. I don’t use staff for it’s auto attack, nor does it even seem logical for a player weapon auto attack to cause a problem with an NPC’s behavior. It seems like the players have done more testing than the devs…
I apologize if I came across as saying you didn’t activate the abilities. I simply asked if you had. The problem still lies in using the staff as your main sorce of damage. Marks and Minions don’t work together well. You will get bugged out because they don’t trigger the minion AI which makes sense seeing as how they are essentially traps and not attacks.
Tip 1: Lay your marks before the fight begins. Than use another weapon to begin the attack, then swap back to staff, and continue to drop marks. When they player dies, swap weapons when targeting someone new.
Tip 2: Don’t use staff at all except for control. Use Axe/focus or D/W as your main weapons and only swap to staff for marks than back to your main weapon.
Essentially you have to choose between traited marks or minions. They just don’t mix well, and I am pretty sure that’s intentional.
First of all, saying that rangers have no mobility is absolutely false; use a greatsword on your ranger, and Swoop has a 12 second cooldown and almost instantly dashes you 1100 range; it works the same way Ride the Lightning (on d/d elementalist) does, but on a lower cooldown. I have no problems whatsoever with escaping and evading enemies with this weapon.
When it comes to warriors, they can use their greatsword with 2 amazing abilities to run when they’re in danger; their spin and their 5 ability, which causes them to run incredibly fast in the direction they choose. Plus, they have other abilities that can dash/invulnerable(indure pain)/stability/block for them as well on their utility/elites.
If necros have such immobility, no way to avoid damage, low damage, and low utility – necros are simply underpowered. Necros have less than every other class in the game. Engineers can spec for amazing damage and even stealth; sure, they aren’t the greatest either and need work as well, but definitely not as bad as the necromancer.
As for your final statement “Learn to think about us in terms of attrition and defensive, and you will find that the class is not frustrating but very well balanced.” There is no attrition when a zerg comes and kills you in 1 second regardless of how much health/tougness/abilities/dodges you use to escape. Even in plague form with blind going, a zerg could easily kill any necromancer in 1 second or less. Clearly you must be on a low tier server where the zergs have no idea what they’re doing, because ever since I joined blackgate with my guild in tier 2/tier 1 matchings, the zergs are fierce and instagib any supposedly ‘high health’ or ‘tanky’ necromancer. Never once have I seen a necromancer escape a zerg, yet I have seen most other classes escape with ease (with the exception of engineers who don’t spec for stealth).
You are requesting WvWvW changes when the entire conversation has been based around tPvP and sPvP. We have already conceded that wvwvw is a zerg fest, and therefore subject to it’s own rules.
However, my server is Tarnished Coast, and so I do know really good wvwvw battles. I don’t partake in them a lot, but the zergs are extremely strong, and if you don’t get away you will die.
As for the ranger part, the first time a ranger is able to escape from a zerg using GS (rarely equipped on ranger since WH and SB are standard or LB with Axe/WH) will be a first for me. The next time it happens in a hot join or tournament will be the first time. Rangers are hilariously easy to trap and prevent from running. The good ones run double dogs, but since the recent change to ther pet abilities double dogs was nerfed.
I also listed warriors in their own category because they have the tools of all three categories, but aren’t fantastic at any of them. Next time please read closely before trying to argue since I mentioned warriors can be highly mobile or highly defensive or high in evasion depending on utility or traits taken. Thank you for pointing it out in more detail what I had already stated.
Finally, we deal very good damage, have a high survival (almost nothing can survive a 10 v 1 for long except maybe a mesmer) I have never died in 1 second against any zerg. I have died in 4 and up, but never one. DS plus two dodges plus a Spectrals = pretty decent survival. I don’t run minions in WvWvW zergs though I am tempted to try it. We cannot escape a fight once it’s started, but this game is not built around who can escape zergs. It’s built around tPvP.
In tournaments we are strong. In defense of keeps and cooperative team play in wvwvw we are very strong. In zerg fests and trying to flee we are very weak as are guardians and engineers (the first time an engineer is able to get away from a 40 man zerg same with guardians once the fight began will be the first time). In order for an engineer to have limited invisibilty, he has to go elixir builds, which means no grenades or grenade elixir build which means no defensive abilities outside of elixirs.
I believe the bottom line is; without a spammable gap closer (Dagger 2 on thief), invisibility, or ride the lightning, you can’t disengage from a fight.
Thief/mesmer/ele – can do.
You could make the argument that engineers get invis, but they generally move so slow it isn’t going to allow them to break enough distance unless they juke effectively while invis.
Oh and norns… norns can all disengage…. should have rolled a norn necro.
Bingo! There are numerous side arguments you can make about the other classes, but those three are really the only ones that can successfully break combat repeatedly.
What? The guardian evades skills with about the 4-5 blocks they can get on demand. The ranger IS a mobile class — maybe you’re not making a good use of monarch’s leap and the double-pounce gap closer mechanic.
Surviving a zerg as a guardian on cleric gear is stupidly easy. I don’t know what horrible spec guardians you run with, but a properly specced and geared guardian in wvw can pretty much stay in a zerg for a good 10 seconds under focus fire and get out with a smart leap of faith or renewed focus.
Guardians can get away fine. They’re just bad chasers and vulnerable to ranged specs. Ranger range means nothing when their damage is garbage.
Evasion is not blocking. Evasion is the ability to avoid damage in a fight using high vigor return. Rangers, Mesmers, and Theives can dodge repeatedly. Blocking is a defensive trait. 10 seconds in a zerg is still death. They cannot flee or chase an opponent. We can last 5-10 seconds using proper specs. A smart Leap of faith is simply a delay of death it’s not a flee. They can’t break off a fight, and they know this. leap of faith takes you still within range of just about every classes attack.
Rangers can avoid combat all together because they can range and flee, but they do not have the mobility to break a fight off completely once it starts like Thieves and Ele’s. They are high evasion, decent mobility class with awful utilites.
I played sPvP yesterday trying several different builds. I tried a straight up minion master build: 20/0/30/20/0 with all of the minion related traits of course, and a staff. During most engagements (and I mean 9/10 times) my minions would stand around watching me fight. I had to activate their abilities to get them to inflict anything on an enemy player, and sometimes the flesh golem and shadow fiend would simply disengage as soon as they were finished with the skill. Bone minions were extremely unresponsive, taking up to 30 seconds to finally start chasing an enemy player. I pretty much had to lure enemies to THEM so I could blow them up.
The only reliable minion is the flesh worm. It works perfectly. It spawns, it instantly attacks targets, and doesn’t stop until it or the enemy is dead.
Your problem was you used the staff. For some reason even auto attack with staff is wonky with minion. Run Axe/Focus or Dagger/warhorn and you will see better results. Also did you use their abilities to force an attack. I have never seen Bone Fiend unresponsive. Flesh Golem, Shadow Fiend, and Bone minions are common to bug out. Shadow Fiend will typically work better once you activate his ability which should be used on CD anyways.
I think we covered the Staff issues in the MM guide I wrote earlier this year. Staff, and any targeting ability will cause the minions to not attack. I don’t know why auto attack bugs it out, but Axe 2, 3, Focus 4, 5, Warhorn 4, and Dagger 2 have really good forcing the target to attack abilities. Auto attack usually will cause a delay. I actually have auto attack turned off because it bugs them out so often.
I never said the class was broken, nor have I said anything about MM being broken. Unreliable and not playing to the necro’s potential with other builds are my only complaints. I actually think it is the most complete class currently besides Guard/Mesmer. And yes I play tPvP, in fact it’s bout all I do. I don’t see a link to your build so I have no way of testing it or checking on its potential. I do not have a solid team, I run with pick up groups of other solo players regularly though. Team composition may be a factor. But after seeing your latest post we seem to be at least facing teams of very different compositions. As for bunker killing I find my terror well builds to be more than sufficient with or without cd’s.
random grouping with MM is tough. Because it’s heavily reliant on the ability to focus fire. When you get random grouped with a bad team it’s hard to focus fire especially if your team makeup keeps changing. When I random, I ignore everyone else, and work on killing their closest area. I play a lot of 1v1 in tPVP random.
I find the MM builds to be the most efficient build for Necros. Mainly because I find the DS centric builds to be too random in terms of damage output and intake for my liking. The condition specs are too easily neutered by a few builds and i don’t like targeting abilities which is a majority of condition specs. In this end it’s playstyle. I am really bad as a condition necro, and found Power builds to be too up and down especially wells (amazingly powerful) with extend cd’s.
I agree with you that Guardians, Mesmers, Necro’s and Ele’s are the most complete classes currently. Rangers are the most broken, Thieves are too one-sided, Engineers are too blah, and Warriors are 1 trick ponies.
I thought precision doesn’t affect minions -.-
Nothing affects minions except vulnerability and traits. Power Builds are just better play with minions because you can stack vuln, lock down the oppponent, and have a bit more burst. Condition builds work best with other traits.
Lich Form for Damage, Flesh Golem for never having to change playstyle, and it’s easy to use.
@reedju – Do you play tPvP? I have yet to run into a successful team that spams AOE on a specific point. tPvP is about roaming single target killers and focus fire. You pick off targets then drop the bunker. Aoe build get trainwrecked unless it’s a ranger, and they are easy to avoid their aoe and still kill them
tPvP is the strongest point for MM bunker and berzerker builds. My task as a MM in every single tourney game is kill the bunker or take out the ranged guy that’s dropping the hammer on us. Every single time it’s effective. with 4 different cc capabilities, and the flesh wurm (everyone ignores it and it does great damage). Only trap rangers, s/d cannon ele’s, and grenade engineers destroy your minions fast.
Only condi Necro’s have aoe pressure, and everyone carries condi removal in high level tPvP making power builds really strong for your bunker killer. Axe is the only viable option for MM builds in tPvP accressive play even the bunker guys run A/F and D/W. Vuln stacking is amazing since it’s the most ignored condition in the game outside of Chill. Everyone just thinks meh, I ain’t worried, than you hit them and they worry. If they cleanse the vuln than your condition teammate hits them fast and hard.
The problem I see is not MM, but rather your team is not built for you to play MM the way you need to. What is your normal tPvP team makeup?
My tPvP team runs – Guardian, Ele, Thief, Mesmer, Necro – The mesmer will swap out for a ranger or 2nd thief from time to time.
Ele is bunker/roamer, Guardian runs bunker so Thief and Mesmer are the roamers, and I roll as the bunker killer. My team is built for me to thrive, because we have aoe pressure we have two bunkers and we have high mobile classes. I am ignored most of the time at the start of every match :P. By the end of every match I am being focused by the opposing theif, ranger, or ele. When you train wreck their bunker it’s makes you a priority, but I am a pain to kill because of all the siphon life kills. A/F allows me to kite thanks to chill and cripple.
Being unable to play something effectively does not mean the class is broken. Please see every single elementalist post at the beginning of the game, and how good ele is now.
Thieves were always a l2p problem. They have their weaknesses (a lot of them) and stellar players make their weaknesses less prevalent.
Eles however have fewer weaknesses. Really the only major one is only one long CD stunbreak in a double arcane build or a lack of serious burst in a cantrip build. They’re also weak to properly timed immobs and CCs in general.
I really do think RTL is the problem. Remember when RTL was a 2 second self-stun on anything but flat ground? After the fix it’s a miracle how well it operates and how low the CD is. Between RTL, lightning flash and decent access to swiftness, eles are by far the fastest roamers in the game with very little penalty for it.
Let’s clarify it’s not RTL that’s the problem it’s the 30 point arcana, permanent vigor with multiple defensive tools that you can trait into that’s the issue.
Unlike the Guardian, Engineer, and Necro who are all defensive classes that have low mobility, the ele can play defensive and have the high mobility. The hardest ele’s are not the bunker ele’s it’s the roamers that don’t go glass cannon, but go 30 Arcana with glass cannon gear, and carry cantrips. They can hit hard and swap to evasion while staying alive. It’s incredible to watch a really good ele.
I have no problems with bunker ele’s or bunker guardians as an MM Necro. Boon stripping is what we are good for. My tourney team thinks it’s the funniest thing to watch me take down a guardian faster than two of them can. Of course I stack boon stripping.
As an MM, my only issues are the large aoe fights that end up destroying my minions faster than I can rez them, but even then it’s not a huge deal as 20 seconds later they are all back. Now a bunker engineer with grenades and a bunker trap ranger I don’t even want to come near them.
Yes ele’s are currently the toughest bunker to kill because their ability to restack boons while playing defensive and being highly mobile is frustrating at times, but the damage the deal is almost nil, and if you can time your lockdown burst you can force them to run. Now running into two or three ele’s with a trap ranger on that team is pretty ridiculous.
I can take down one, but I ran into a three ele team the other day and got bounced around like a pinball until I died.
But I did minion master not only to survive but also deal damage.
power alone won’t give me much of damaging.
huh? I think you are not using the correct wording. Power is the main source of damage. Power/Prec plus vuln stacking is the only way to do damage with you minions.
In PvP there are too many pathing issues to use minions well. You can preach patience all you want, but when it comes to split second timing minions will not be reliable (melee minions at least). It usually takes the full 4 sec duration of my dagger immobilize for the lil squirrels to get into explosion range. I can’t speak for PvE, but for PvP the combination of poor responsiveness (barely any functionality in team fights does overwrite the fact they behave pretty well 1v1), how squishy they are to any form of aoe even with health traited, and how gimped you become when they are dead and on cd leaves minions wanting compared to well/epi/terror builds. MM has a long way to go before it is viable.
They are actually better in pvp than in pve. They are brutal in wvwvw, but so is every pet/minion type build. In tpvp, the lack of heavy aoe fire from multiple sources and small scale fights make the MM a very good build.
When your minion is dead you are as strong as a condition build with his CD’s down except my CD’s are shorter. When your minion’s are dead your survival rate is as strong or stronger than a DS centric build. When your minions are down you are as strong as several of the specific builds (wells and DS builds). A ds build outside of DS is as weak as a Minion build without minions. A well build is notoriously bad when wells are out of CD, they are just extremely strong with wells up.
Proper understanding of a class is a requirement for minion builds. Try playing with an axe/focus.
I have noticed no change. They are still totally borked. Farming with my flesh golem summoned he will attack during 1 in 7 – 10 encounters. I have not personally seen any minion begin combat at the start of an encounter since the patch, only part way through.
Minions remain an abysmal joke.
I highly doubt that you play for several hours and seventy percent of the time none of the minions attack. Especially if you don’t actually use the minon ability. I have spent an absurd amount of time playing MM. I have never had a 70 percent of the time issue. My guess is you are an aoe condition guy or a staff mark player who carries just the flesh golem around and finds that means all minions are bad. He is the only one wiht a major issue, the rest attack regularly.
Granted I do a few things to help him attack. If I find he spends a few fights not attacking. I will port to a different location to reset him or simply send him inot a fight to die.
@the above mobility complaints.
1. There are three high evasion classes – Thief, Ranger, Mesmer. Comparing any other class to them in terms of ability to evade an attack is ridiculous. No other class has as much access to as many different abilities to evade damage or abilities as theses three.
2. There are two high mobility classes – Thief and Elemenatlist – The Mesmer is not mobile it’s an evasion class. It’s only method of escape is to evade, evade, and confuse you until you give up. The ranger does not have high mobility, it also has high evasion. It cannot escape a fight well it can prevent fights. Comparing the mobility of any other class to these two is ridiculous because both classes most have the mobility in order to survive.
3. There are three defensive focus classes (defensive meaning they are built around the design to survive hits (not evade them) and outlast) – Engineers, Guardians, and Necromancers. The problem with defensive classes is they can never have the mobility of the high mobility classes or they will be impossible to kill this is balance.
4. The Warrior is the only class that can spec into any of the above skills, but it’s also why they severely lose value in the other areas once they spec into them.
If you have trouble catching guardians and engineers in a fight, the problem is not with the Necro. The problem is with you. Every class has problems catching Elementalists and Thieves because that’s their class design. It’s called balance the tradeoff for that mobility is the ease at which they die when caught (bunker ele’s not with standing, but bunker ele’s do no damage).
Forget comparing us to other classes, learn to balance around your class. Ele’s, Theives and rangers are the top WvWvW classes for a simple reason. Mobility and the ability to avoid fights in a zerg world are awesome. Rangers have the best range. Engineers and Necromancers are defensive classes so they will see the least amount of play because a majority of game players run around with Kill! Kill! Kill! playing in their head.
When you compare escape mechanisms, you have to compare us to similar classes. The engineer outside of those who spec for it have almost no ability to avoid or escape a fight. They have to specifically spec into Elixirs. I have an 80 engineer and have played WvWvW with him, trust me it’s not very easy. Guardians outside of stability have zero ability to survive a zerg or avoid a fight once spotted. Again they have to have stability because they are very boon dependent and they don’t have access to a second life bar.
Learn to think about us in terms of attrition and defensive, and you will find that the class is not frustrating but very well balanced.
I think in spvp man thief issues vanish, mainly because points can’t be flipped in stealth. P/D I can imagine is certainly less effective there, though again I base all my posts off wvw logic. Also minons can block (I think) the stealth bleed unload skill. Warriors have a really hard time in spvp because with insane attack damage they are too easy to cc or kite.
I find it odd that your build with boon ripping mions doesn’t work on bunker eles. That would be easy I would have thought , on paper. Maybe the aoe scraps the minions.
I rarely do sPvP anymore. I prefer free or paid tourneys. I can wreck bunker ele’s because their aoe damage is weak, but they build boons so fast it’s a constant work to keep them off. They are a bugger to kill because attunement swapping dodging for heals d/d bunkers are so mobile and can heal so well. The ele’s that make me go ugh are Glass cannon S/D or there is a certain D/D build that wrecks my minions. I don’t do a lot of WvWvW so I can’t comment on it.
The two builds that destroy my minions so fast I can’t really do much are Condition Trap Rangers and Grenade Engineers. If I run into either one, I typically head in another direction to pick on an easier target and leave them to someone who can deal with them.
My PvE build is completely around supporting staff/condition damage with scepter/huge damage spikes with wells. You do pretty high damage if you throw down wells/staff marks all at once (don’t fear), and I’ve often found that if I throw down all my wells/marks on top of a group of enemies, and run in, use DS 4 then drop fear mark and back out, I’ve usually killed the entire wave of mobs (or pretty close), and then they are easy enough to finish off, and I’ve taken no real damage since I was in DS the whole time. It also helps out your team because a wells build with vampiric wells makes you incredibly tanky and you WILL always have aggro, and this means your team can run as high on damage as they want since you can soak up all the aggro right at the start then run around kiting them until they die. Its really hard at first, but once you get used to it even really difficult dungeons ain’t got nothin’ on you.
You are correct in just about everything except you are running conditions with wells which is kind of counter since in PVE boons are rare. Running wells with dagger/wh in P/V/T gear plus siphon health on wells = awesome tankage. You could roll up some major damage without even breaking a sweat.
I am thinking of carrying some pvt gear and trying to “tank” for my guild so our guardian can play his dps alts.
Couple of questions on tanking as a necro.
Three Wells plus ?? and Lich form combined.
Do you run Life Transfer heals or siphoning is 50 percent more effective?
Do you grab points in the minion tree or do you snag better DS or run up the power tree?
Staff plus Dagger WH would be some stunning aoe damage to wrap up your condition, but then you have to trait for Marks plus trait for wells, and you would lose the extended ds.
(edited by Bas.7406)
ahh thanks guys, was hoping to make a crazy build based around bone minions only lol
Bone minions can still have some decent niche rolls in direct damage builds, for example a power build with dagger/focus and wells to bomb teams could benefit from minions, summon them right as you get in, drop well of suffering and use focus 4 and 5 to stack up vulnerability/chill and damage, then explode the minions at the end for something like 2k-3k+ damage each, would be very possible.
Plus they are really the only finisher for axe/focus minion builds.
For early pve you can do anything, same for spvp if you got stun breaks, later on id say going for wells or Crit/DS build for fractals.
Either way here:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/70626-list-of-necromancer-builds/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Epic-conditionmancer-TPvP-with-commentary/first#post1403015
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/The-definition-of-glass-cannon-tutorial/first#post1368918
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Fear-is-my-weapon-6x-fear-WvW-build(overall any build nemesis makes is at least viable if not better than some “top” builds other classes have)
What he says, We are strong in some cases, though my minions hate high level fractals. I end up going with a DS Boring build for fractals because with Agony Minons just die.
Debuf is better than explosion
in pvp play yes! In pve, no! Though i will sometimes run without explosion or debuff in pve.
Normally I find your aruguments to be pretty well placed, but this one is not. You don’t seem to be very familiar with the P/D thief and its traits at all. They have numerous condition clears, (on invis and on heal), regen on invis and on heal, and only need to use initative on going invis more. Everytime they attack out of stealth they drop 5 more bleeds on you. For single target conditions they are easily top 3.
P/D is easily one of the most powerful condition builds in the game, and by no means is it “easy” to beat for anyone. And the whole thief class is based around not having a face to face fight, hence the stealth.
I have fought numerous amazing thieves, P/D, D/D, S/D, D/P, and ALL of them know how to control a fight. When you are the one going invisible and initiating attacks, YOU control the fight. While I find S/D, and DD much easier to deal with as a necro, both D/P and P/D are nearly impossible to outlast, or out damage.
Completely ignoring the insane stealth healing mechanic of the thief is the only way you can call their defenses weak. They have higher armor than we do. Yes they have low HP, but its easily made up with avoidance since you know, we can’t burst them down.
EDIT: “making them easily beaten.” – I have a thief friend who would love to prove you wrong if you find some time.
It has less to do with not understanding thieves and more to do with never running a condition build. I run minions so I never worry about conditions being removed. I dislike the way Necro Conditions work.
I have run into really good thieves who are a pain to kill, but I consider any time they run away to be a win. If I force you away from your objective, I win. If you kill me you win. Since I am never going to run because as a necro that’s just not really possible.
The deal with theives is that a majority run D/D and or S/P which I find to be irksome, but not a problem. As a minion mancer single target S/P aren’t an issue because when they come out of stealth I blind or charge them down and then hit them as hard as I can. When I sense them going to stealth I pop ds and hit life transfer. Channels follow in stealth (perhaps a bug, but beautiful). I swap to staff drop the marks, and wait them out. If they return I swap back to axe/focus and hit them with a chill, they will usually invis and cleanse, I hit them with axe 2 for a cripple and retail
Now we are in a battle of attrition, they are annoyed and I still have ds. Against theives i uses DS as buffer. As for P/D theives, I rarely find them a big issue, but that’s because I use DS to offset the damage stacking, and the more you send them into stealth the less they can hurt you.
I have lost to quite a few theives. There is one guy I routinely see in tPvP. He is a hassle and a half. He kills me more often than I kill him, but I chase him off his target more often than he kills me. His team has made killing me their number one priority because I can force their burst to retreat defensively. Their ele and condition ranger on the other hand ugh.
The only classes I can routinely beat are guardians, warriors, and Power build rangers. Guardians are actually the funniest to build, because they never expect it. They are so used to being bunkers and sustaining through a large amount of burst that when I hit them, and all their boons are gone and their health drops fast. They freak and start wasting CD’s :P.
(edited by Bas.7406)
Thieves are far from top three in condition damage, they are also the easiest to kill. Their mobility is their ownly survival tool. They are popular because they are easy to pickup, and the aesthetic is pretty cool.
The Necro has a significantly easier time in a face to face battle, and in controlling the fight after the initial attack. if you have ever fought a good theif you will notice they spend a majority of the time running away from necro’s attempting to avoid being hit.
Necro’s have middle of the road burst. High sustainable damage, high health, and a lot of slows and ways to control and hinder a player.
Thieves have high burst, low sustainable damage, high mobility, weak defense, and low health making them easily beaten.
Don’t use condition damage with Minions. Use Axe/Focus make sure you equip one of them with the sigil that increases Vuln timing.
Minions work really well with Dagger/warhorn tank builds or Axe/Focus Berzerker.
Power/Tough/Vit or Berzerker gear is the way to go.
Your build should be 20/0/30 (explosion to poison)/20/0 for most cases. If you want more burst damage than 30/0/20/0/20 is more personal damage less survival skills.
Dagger/Dagger is just a bad combination
Actually you are incorrect. Guild wars 2 is not about being able to play any role, and this is where you are going wrong. Guild Wars 2 is about not having roles. Guild Wars2 is about being able to complete any facet of the game with any class without having to have assigned dps/tank/healer.
You mistook their we want everyone to be able to play without assigned roles as everyone can switch to whatever role they want. There is no tank, there is no dps, there is no healer. There are more bunkerish builds, there are more defensive classes, but there are no roles. If you want to do straight damage high end than that is the niche a thief or mesmer plays.
You can complete the entire game with 5 thieves in your group or 5 of anything because there is no need for tanks/dps/healers. That is the goal of GW 2. Now I see why you are confused.
@lettuce, that is correct. That’s why equality in gaming is impossible. Let’s say we give everyone access to every tool and each class can reach the same level of performance with the same button pushes. Now the game essentially becomes a fast twitch memory game. Who can hit the button faster, who has the better computer, this is why I am no good at thieves. I think a bit slower, but you give me an attrition class and I have a chance against players who have the ability to play one trick ponies that require quick timing to not get destroyed.
This in essence is balance. In order to keep the gameplay from being based entirely on computer performance and having those with less skills or fast twitch responses you have to have unequal skill caps. This is balance.
Two completely alternative thoughts arriving at the same point from different methods. They may not arrive at the same place at the exact same time, but they gave up less to get there.
This was my point, you just agreed with me while stating you don’t agree with me. Either way this is a discussion I am covering in a column :P.
No, man, what we are trying to say is completely different.
What you have said is that it is fine that a certain skill level there is a discrepancy between two profession in terms of performance and it can’t be otherwise unless you have the complete equality. What I’m trying to say, on the other side, is that it isn’t and that you can get equal performance without have complete equality and this what we should aim to get balance.
You are really intent on drawing me out before I can finish my column on this.
Look, herein lies the difference.
Balance is arriving at the same end from two different methods. Equality is making sure you get there at the same time the same way.
Equal Performance output is not possible if you want to keep unique playstyles available.
Balance is possible with unique playstyles and professions. Equal Performance is not. If every class has the ability to burst a class down in 2.5 seconds that is equal performance and can be conceived as balance. That is the way a first person shooter works. It’s also really boring and has no unique playstyle except in terms of visual effect. This is what you want.
Balance is a fine curve that you have to play if you want to keep a unique playstyle to games. You turn it too much in one direction and you lose the effectivenss of a playstyle too much in another and it becomes overpowered. You are playing with cause and effect here, and that’s trouble when you are trying to achieve a level of balance.
A class that’s defensive orientated that has the potential of high damage can be drastically op depending on how you balance. If you want to keep in Niche styles (which is exactly what Anet and I want) than you lose the Equality in specific jobs that you seek.
Some classes will be able to survive longer than other. Some classes will deal more damage so in order to achieve balance you sacrifice some facets for others so that both can reach the same point via different means.
Equal Performance (what you want) can only equal Balance at the sacrifice of unique and niche fields (what anet and I want).
This is what I mean by you are confusing equality with Balance. Yes your way brings balance in the same way a first person shooter does. But it destroys the uniqueness of each class and gives you a homogenization of classes.
Games went so far in that direction that there was no point in playing one class or the other outside of visual effect. What’s the point in a game that does that? Balance can be achieved by roles, and each class playing their specific role well.
You say balance means I should have the same mobility and ease of use as another class. That’s not balance that’s equal performance and homogenization which is difficult to do because everyone has different tools that they pickup easily.
Balance is me being able to defeat an opponent using the tools at my disposal. it might take longer or require me to kite or knockdown or use a combination of skills but I can still kill him. He can still kill me with his rush in and blow something up. The tradeoff is he loses the ability to survive or close gaps to reach that point.
Balance says that no single class can kill every other class without me being able to kill them
TLDR: Balance is not always Equal Performance at a specific job. Balance simply means that we can both reach the same point (killing a target) through different means or skill level doesnt’ matter we both reached the same point and have the ability to get there.
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Please, don’t confuse equality with balance. Equality means that you cut away any differences (thus balance two same amounts of the same material), balance means that you put some here, some there to make something weight as much as something else (so two different amounts of two different materials which weight overall the same).
Equality => Balance
Balance =/=> EqualityMy graphs don’t imply that the performance level (weights) should be reached in the same way in every professions.
This was my point, you just agreed with me while stating you don’t agree with me. Either way this is a discussion I am covering in a column :P.