No you couldn’t , cause your minions wouldn’t attack most of the time X) But if they would… nah, you would still take longer to kill eg. chieftain. Cause DH bursted and Minion-DMG is sustained. Anyway, I just seriously hope AI and pathing will be fixed until/with HoT. And some way to make minions survive AOE…maybe.
Minions don’t immediately bug, in HotM testing they almost never do, and minions have pretty high burst using A/F and D/WH, you can easily kill the boss within one rotation of CC (charge, rigor mortis, dagger 3, WH5/4, DS5/4/3 is a total of 1.8s fear, 10.2s immobilize, 1s knockdown, 2s daze) which lasts 15 seconds, during which you deal quite a lot. Minions have pretty strong burst, you just normally won’t unload it all at once.
They avoid directly speaking with us because they want to stick with no active defense and keep the second HP concept going.
They have directly spoken with us before when it was appropriate. None of the professions have devs casually posting in the forums all the time, they only drop by to address specific things.
I do think they need to “standardize” cast times. As in, your standard offensive ability should be 3/4s cast time, defensive abilities should be instant, and then you increase or decrease casts from that standard point for significantly stronger or weaker abilities. For example, elites like the Warrior banner have massive effects, so the cast time is much longer, but something like Locust Swarm doesn’t really do much when you cast it, so it should be lowered. But cast times should generally be relatively low for skills that don’t immediately have a strong effect on the enemy.
And aftercasts should only be used when absolutely necessary, for things that might be instant cast but can’t be cast while stunned (Corrupt Boon).
There is definitely a need for a pass-over of casts on Necromancer.
Id worry that they would nerf the durability and duration of plague if they changed it though. Its duration is the one thing that makes it good. And lich would be hard to adapt in a way that would make most people happy.
Plague would allow you to actually do something though, which is a pretty big change. Its no longer press elite and go afk for 30s, but a long-lasting scaling defense skill (even if put to 20s) that pulses stability and doesn’t lock us out of our other skills, aka a lot of what we’ve been asking for forever.
And if Lich is changed to be a damage increase that doesn’t rely on might/fury to do that increase, we see a damage increase in PvE, plus another source of stability.
As long as we don’t lose the #5 skill on Lich (make it a second active), and they keep their same overall theme (lich = damage increase, plague = defense increase + pulsing blind and/or poison, both pulse stab) I really see no reason this wouldn’t work really well.
We don’t know that Scepter will do more, all conditions are changing.
What if Lich, Rampage, and the other transforms were changed similar to Guardian tomes? Most of them are used for only one thing, so if you can make that one thing onto an active it is pretty easy to make them normal skills.
Ex: make Lich form a significant damage boost for 20s, with pulsing stability like right now, and then have the #5 skill as a second active once you’ve used Lich. That is everything Lich is currently used for (except range), but can be counterplayed much better, and removes a lot of the annoying parts of Lich for each person (damage can be toned down a little, will require landing skills like normal, just hitting harder but the Necro actually gets to use their skills).
Besides the AA I don’t think she’s had anything new added, the bone wall stuff she’s used for a long time afaik.
Actually, thinking over it, I think it would be really easy to change them without losing much. Lich could actually become more interesting by being a large damage buff with pulsing stab, throw on Lich #5 as a second active after you use the skill, and you’ve got everything you liked about Lich (big damage + #5) with less of the BS. Make plague a pulsing AoE blind/poison around you, plus pulsing stability/protection, and you’ve got a better version of plague.
The only thing that they couldn’t transfer well is Lich giving you range/cleave.
Im laughing so hard right now. Cause I know some of you have never played GW1.
Im talking about a MECHANIC CHANGE so you cant say its a nerf or a buff. That argument is completely invalid.
You are asking to kitten with one of our best weapons in the game, which is stupid. If it isn’t broken don’t kitten with it.
Why can’t Guardians get good changes? If ANet is making good changes, it should be a sign that they are noticing and changing things. Tomes were garbage, its a good thing that they change, and frankly they could change our transforms really easily and I wouldn’t cry. If you turned Plague into a PBAoE area blind that also pulses protection and stability (or something comparable that pulses blind and makes you tankier) then you’ve taken the main use of Plague and made it better since now you can cast. Same with Lich, just make it some kind of massive power boost that pulses stability and you’ve got a better Lich form. With that they can also fix the minion/moa issue.
I doubt its that the guy in charge of Necromancer doesn’t like Necromancer (in fact he’s the guy that was in charge of us in GW1), I think it is much more likely that he isn’t allowed to make the changes we want. For example, imagine you work for Anet as a game designer, but aren’t the lead designer. Everything you do, no matter how cool, has to go through that lead (who is Peters afaik). That means you could be begging to do all the changes that the forums ask for, and the lead can just tell you no for whatever reason, and there isn’t a thing you can do.
I wouldn’t put too much stock in a guardian fighting a stationary boss. I can destroy the boss just as quickly on MM while taking no damage, and that’s before the trait changes, does that mean MM is OP? No.
Guardian’s spec will be strong, especially in PvE, but in PvP you will not see more than one trap in a build, they have really long CDs and are really easy to avoid (takes a full second to cast+activate in combat). Again, its good, but their Ready Up is literally a marketing ploy to get people excited, I wouldn’t take it at face value.
it’s less jealousy and more just sheer disbelief that the game’s lead designer is looking for ways to change up one of the game’s strongest, healthiest classes while Necromancer has not had a red post in it since pretty much before I started playing, as far as I have seen
So because Guardians are in a good place they can never get any changes? That’s stupid. Guardian tomes are kitten, they always have been, they’re used only in the most niche of situations, and these changes are pretty solid, and probably won’t take a whole lot of work, since one is a shout (don’t really need visuals), and the other is just drawing a visual. So all Peters has to do is balance the numbers and hook them up, its actually a really easy change for a massive benefit to Guardians, who currently take the exact same Elite all the time.
So let’s stop being entitled brats and accept that Guardians getting good changes doesn’t mean we’re not getting anything. I would be extremely surprised if our specialization isn’t really cool, the only thing really worrying is if anyone will use anything that isn’t the spec.
Really don’t think there would be anything wrong with Dhuumfire if LB shot faster (1s per shot including aftercasts instead of 1.4) and if they fixed the other issues with DS. It gives easy burning to a profession that otherwise doesn’t have it, and allows us to return fire while in an otherwise defensive position.
Of the 9 professions:
Revenant can’t get shouts (6 shouts while Rev gets 5 skills, plus their unique utility setup)
Warrior, Guardian, and Ranger already have them
Mesmer is getting wells
That leaves us with Elementalist, Necromancer, Thief, and Engineer. Of those professions, we are the only ones with skills that can easily be translated from GW1 (Orders), in addition we are pretty sure we are getting a melee greatsword, and so far every single melee greatsword wielding profession in the game has shouts, on top of the fact that Marjory seems to have been taught how to use the GS by Rox (a ranger, who has shouts), and the fact that shouts are an easy way to add support to a profession that desperately needs it. None of the other professions really fits Shouts any better than us, shouting Thieves is stupid, Engineers use technology, Elementalists are possible but unlikely.
So basically, we are easily the most fitting profession, we already have template skills. Everything we can possibly speculate about points to Necromancer getting the shouts. That is NOT to say that we definitely will, just that it is the most likely scenario.
Except Warhorn is great in every game mode. It is literally almost perfect, its the closest thing to perfect we have. Its useful on condi and power builds, its great in glass cannon and tanky builds, it has a great interrupt, LF gain, damage, swiftness, it works in every gamemode both in combat and to get you around faster. Its actually amazing, why would you go and change one of our best set of skills?
The changes to the profession mechanics are being tied into the minor traits, and will only be there when spec’d into that line, just like the weapon skills/utilities.
Corruption would fit simply due to conditions. Wells are static, they do not move, there is nothing about Plague that makes sense as a well except that it an AoE effect. It could fit as spectral as well, although Lich would make more sense on that front, you are literally covering yourself into what appears to be spectral energy.
Yeah, it was a bit underhanded and hugely unnecessary especially when the devs themselves welcomed feedback. I guess one of the Mods have something against necros? ?_?
The mods felt the title was too click-baity, and it was reposted not that long afterwards with a more “appropriate” title. It wasn’t actually removed.
Why would it need a rework? Lich form as a spectral, Plague as a corruption, done.
Orders reintroduced as shouts would be amazing, it was a great GW1 build, plus it can help address our dire need for support.
I doubt it. Tomes were almost never used and didn’t seem to be well liked by a lot of guardians, whereas Plague and Lich both have very distinct uses and see play a lot. They also aren’t 100% sure if they will change them or not, this is just Peters seeing if people would like it, and if so what would they like to see.
Realize that a full 25 stacks consumed can deal almost 10k damage, meaning hitting them all would kill literally anyone. Its not meant to be fully removed, it is a huge additional damage spike on a single target.
Hey look, condi guard is already set to outshine Necromancer, surprise!
This already exists. It’s called venoms and it’s terrible.
And that has everything to do with the way the build works, and not the idea of offensive support.
And change DS so it scales in some way or form with 1vX scenarios.
Just have scaing LF gain and something like evade/invuln or similar and its easy to go.
There haven’t been any hints, its just what they should do.
No, things can be objectively bad, save all this subjective crap for tumblr.
Shouts can be made to buff allies’ ability to harm enemies, which is very likely because of Orders, and would be great support.
As for warhorn, the only change I’d really make to it is maybe a blast finisher on 4, and changing the locusts to not deal damage unless you are already in combat (so they don’t put you in combat when you run past some boxes).
Nothing about DS becoming a decent scaling defense requires a rework of the entire profession. Traits and skills rework yes, and those are also things we can expect with the upcoming changes. The hope is that ANet realizes the problem/listens to our feedback so it happens.
Garbage.
Just allow our own healing through death shroud, and enable our 6-0 skills. There is a legitimate argument against allowing allied healing while in DS, but I see no good reason that Necro is the only profession that can’t heal itself while using defensive abilities.
If they changed not only the minions of Necro, the other things they changed (mobs, ranger pets…) would be just as kittened up. But they aren’t.
They did change them, to varying amounts. Minions had a slightly different AI (which is why some were insanely aggressive), but they’ve changed all player summoned AI and they all have issues. People don’t notice them because Ranger’s have “reset” buttons, Mesmer’s aren’t “proper” AI and don’t run into issues because of how they are summoned and how quickly they die, Engineer’s don’t have pathing, etc. You apparently ignored half of what I typed, because I explained why minions bug out and mobs don’t, and none of the other professions have anything comparable AI wise.
The leash changes were definitly Necro only, for example. And the other pets/summoned things have less pathing issues, too, and Mobs might have very tiny hitches, but if they want to attack you/ get to you, they usually will, no matter the terrain or you hiding behind a corner etc.
It is extremely easy to bug out the mob AI, just stand somewhere where they can’t hit you and they do nothing. The difference is, like I explained, mobs aren’t tied to some idiot running around kittening up their pathing constantly, they just sit there until someone attacks them that they can reach, and until then they have things like invuln/regen.
And no, they don’t work that way at all. If you click on an enemy and attack another, your minions will (at least it was that way last patch) attack the one whose HP-bar is displayed – if they attack at all, that is.
Its a priority system. Your target > things you’ve dealt damage to > things that have attacked you > things that have attacked the individual minion. This is the way it has worked since launch.
I’m still baffled how one can kitten up a simple “npc please attack X” script. Also minions in every game using pets/summons as a fighhting style I’ve ever played are supposed to keep the mobs attention away from the summoner. Having no way to make your minions attack a specific target without drawing the aggro from it is bullkitten.
Because, like I’ve explained at least twice, acquiring aggro isn’t the problem, pathing is. The minions know who they are supposed to attack, they just can’t figure out how to get there to do it, and when that happens their AI bugs out. Could ANet put something in to fix this? Potentially, but it isn’t that simple because every change they could make opens up the possibility for other issues.
As for drawing aggro from the summoner, tanking doesn’t exist in this game, but it is pretty easy to have your minions attack first and gain priority in the aggro table for you. Just use an AA that is out of range, or cast a targeted ability and then cancel it before it casts. Its not remotely hard.
I don’t see why ANet would remove LF as health when that part of the concept is working fine especially when it basically requires them to rework everything defensive about the entire profession.
I would love them too, although I think there are other ways to open up skills like them to us, and DS isn’t necessary for that.
Why do people want necro to heal consistently in death shroud. From me PvP perspective that would be really op. I’m just curious cause I enjoy playing necro in PvP, PVE & WvW.
Because every single other profession in the game, and every single other defensive mechanic in the game allows this. Necromancer isn’t remotely close to being OP right now, and defensive changes like this won’t push it over. The reality is the profession needs to have some things changed, like not healing in DS, so that it fits together as a cohesive product better, and if this requires some other changes like lowered LF then so be it.
Make Necromancer a good profession design wise, then balance after, don’t allow balance to make us badly designed.
ArenaNet. Give us QoL changes or give us death.
That I absolutely agree with. The recent outcry has happened at an appropriate time when they are allowed a lot of resources to address things, so maybe we’ll get lucky. Lots of feedback + resources to actually use it could cause changes.
With Dhuumfire one of the bigger issues with DS’s kit (having nothing to do as a condi build after 2/3/5) is being fixed, once it becomes every attack. If they allowed us to use our utilities too then no reason to mess with DS too much, treat it more like a weapon swap (with attached LF) than some completely different form.
How about just allowing us to have our utilities while in DS. Let’s stop treating it like an entirely different form, and more like a weapon swap.
The problem isn’t that ANet hasn’t been (glacially slowly) fixing some issues. The problem is that every time they make a decent change like Foot in the Grave becoming a stun-break, it comes after 6 months of nothing, and is often followed by a step back. If ANet had 100 years to develop GW2 then sure, Necromancers would probably be pretty close to okay at the end of it, but they don’t, and at their current speed of balance and change iteration they will never fix our problems.
Outside of them miraculously listening to the forums and making a pretty massive set of changes to Necro, our best hope is that they release our specializations pretty quickly, and that they are all such shiny coats of paint that we all forget we’re stuck driving our parents’ beat up hand-me-down car while everyone else got a brand new sports car.
I think Bhawb has an optimistic problem. He tries real hard to see the good in things, and in a way he’s sort of right in some situations. In other cases, when you really get him to open up, he says a lot of things that sounds less optimistic.
Bhawb, stop being so nice, just accept the fact that we blow! Nerd rage with us, friend!
I tend to be more “optimistic” on the forums because I find it helps me stay more constructive. Plus when you compare me to people constantly thinking all is vain I seem optimistic when I’m really just trying to be realistic. ANet won’t rework us, and if they did, do you really trust them to get it right?
Btw, when I say we don’t need a “rework”, I’m saying that the basic idea of a Necromancer, who builds life force using skills to activate a Death Shroud that replaces your 1-5 skills and gives you life force instead of HP is fine. All of our weapon’s core designs are fine, as our our abilities. I’m not talking balance wise or how they currently work, but just that their core design in most cases is fine.
That isn’t to say there isn’t a heavy amount of work that needs to go into fixing bugs and “features”, adding finishers, changing fields, fixing traits (especially blood magic), adding support, fixing the AI, lowering some cast times/CDs, rebalancing things, and plenty more. But none of those require what I would consider a rework of the profession: a rework to me is essentially deleting everything except the very core theme and rebuilding it from the ground up. We don’t need that, what we need is a pass like Ranger got (but far more heavy-handed), and we need Devs that aren’t scared of upsetting balance for a few weeks (because they’ve NEVER made someone OP for months on end right?) to fix a severely broken profession.
I just disagree with the large number of posts I see that seem to think we need to trash everything we have and rebuild it.
(edited by Bhawb.7408)
So tired of everyone trying to sugar coat the problems by saying, we are so good in x, when x is like 20% of the game
To be fair, we’re really good in downedstate, and when playing a Necro being downed is probably more than 20% of your time.
Yeah, hate to tell you all this but +2 years ago the Necros active on this forum all said the same things no change.
We sadly know, because most of us have been here kittening that long, and the ones who aren’t still here either quit or were banned.
Baseline piercing I think is fine, throw the vuln into one of the other thirty DS traits.
We don’t even need a real rework, we just need them to fix their bugs. And I’ll save my giant minion AI rant for the other thread.
Damage buffs can be build defining. I would call Death Perception build defining, as it literally defines what a DS power build is in PvE, without it that build simply would not exist. It also heavily influences the playstyle, you play completely differently without DP than you do with it.
Terror I don’t actually feel is build defining anymore. For a while it was, because you would purposely use it to influence your build decisions and built in such a way that you had as many fears as you could get on top of strong burst damage. This isn’t the case anymore, you simply take it because you have to, and accept that it will deal some kind of damage over the course of the fight. It doesn’t really influence many other decisions in your build besides taking Master of Terror (which would still be good for CC increase), and it doesn’t make a big difference in your playstyle. It CAN be build defining, and it used to be, but it just isn’t anymore.
I agreed with literally everything except some tiny details (“2 out of 3 elites are awful” I disagree with), and the minion analysis, although I can completely understand the feeling about minions.
Hopefully ANet have seen this, because it is a really concise statement of our problems and worries, without getting too bogged down in specifics.
Then, while working on a kitten solution, they should just kittening revert all changes , and give the necro an “aggro on/off” switch for Minions on F2 until they fixed the godkitten thing. Like, seriously. Much less of a hassle, less problems over all, and we could go and abuse the hell out of the new Necromantic Corruption once it comes out.
Reverting all changes probably isn’t at all very easy, as these changes aren’t necessarily only to minions, and they have built on each other. Without actually seeing the code base it is really hard to know if it would be possible to revert the changes, if they even have the original code to revert it to, and if there have been changes since then that reverting would break (for example if the new code is referenced somewhere else). It is actually pretty likely it isn’t a trivial change to make, and they did make the changes for a reason in the first place: overaggressive minions made them awful to use in PvE/WvW because you were 100% in combat all the time the second you entered a map, and then the iteration that had “failsafes” was so complicated it took me probably 20 hours of testing to get it all figured out, your average player had worse issues than they have right now.
A way to get rid off all those problems would actually be to have minions always attack whatever enemy you appoint as “focus target”, if there is any. That should be easy enough, if they didn’t make their code complete bullcrap. True, it might pose problems if playing in a party, but they could make the F2 “aggro on/on+react to focus/off”. The focus target has to be shared with your party members so it should be easy to “listen” to the command to share with minions. Then again, they could also simply give us a freaking “minion, attack this!” button. I mean Necros control the kitten golem-thingies, its not like they have a will on their own in the first place – unlike a hunters pet would have. And even that can listen to kittening commands.
Strictly speaking you do have a focus target, it is every single ability you cast. The way minions currently work is the first targeted ability you cast, first instance of damage you deal, and if any enemy attacks you they will all respond and acquire aggro. They also individually respond to enemies attacking them, but they won’t collectively respond.
The problem isn’t that the minions don’t know who they are supposed to attack, in fact that part of the system has gotten way better (it used to require you to cast two abilities on the targeted, you had to hit one of them, and then they would attack, things like staff marks didn’t work, and if you were outside range with say dagger then you were SoL). The problem is that you tell them who to attack, they try to find a path, can’t, and can’t, at which point they bug out just like normal mobs would. The problem is there is nothing they can do at that point, they need a way to “reset” their aggro, and there isn’t a simple way to do that.
Minions aren’t the source, they just have a bunch of their own problems. Nothing you listed is actually affecting the rest of the Necromancer except for minion traits clogging things up a bit, which as long as they don’t put DN/Necromantic corruption in the same tier will be fine.
Axe is fine for MM builds, and any general tanky power build that doesn’t want staff. The AA isn’t amazing, assuming you don’t animation cancel it (you literally double its AS if you do), but the AA isn’t there to be used all the time, it is filler. Go into DS, don’t camp the Axe weapon set, and you don’t actually need to auto much.