Oh of course i agree. Thats why i said some stat sharing. Our minion effecting traits are pretty lacking though as im sure you can agree. All we have is a flat damage boost and a health boost. Those are so boring and have no counter play. If we had boon traits then they could actually be countered with boon removal.
100% agree, which is why ronpierce and I made that nice big thread about fixing that :P
My main gripe is theres just no way to make minions reliably crit. Which is disappointing to me. I want minions to atleast share my base crit chance. And i want a trait to give them fury or maybe some might or even a trait which makes them use your precision. Or maybe something similar to rangers fortifying bond. Those are certainly more interesting traits.
It’d be interesting, at least. Pack Runes are very common and very strong for a reason, since fury is a really big damage boost. Might is actually really weak IIRC, I don’t believe their abilities have high power coefficients at all.
Plus i think 4k putrid explosions is pretty modest even in PvP. We could actually have a different type of burst spec if we could do that.
4k each (against a higher armor target) is very strong. Against a glass cannon build that is probably 9k damage total, on top of Well of Corruption, and still leaves you an open slot for a stun break. That is a ton of damage to get on a 20s CD. And that was assuming 2.0 crit modifier, and no other damage modifiers except TotM. Its not necessarily too strong, but I would definitely worry that it would lead to possible nerfs.
Flesh Wurm actually gives you even more flexibility because it doesn’t need to have LoS and is 1200 range. So for example if you place it between home and mid on Foefire, you can teleport from the very edge of the middle point all the way to Flesh Wurm.
Flesh Wurm getting a teleport range increase would be immensely helpful to allow them to be homepoint bunkers, because it actually allows for a Necromancer to rotate to another point meaningfully, with the speed of say a Mesmer with portal (but without all the extra team power). Would also help out MM a lot (though not enough to do anything meaningful).
SWalk duration increase would allow you more time to jump into a fight and do some work as a glass cannon build while still being able to jump back. I wonder what it would cause in WvW where you can jump down and destroy something before jumping, but who cares about WvW balance.
Come on guys. Contribute to the topic.
The topic is, ‘Would you actually use the mechanics I have listed here and how would they affect the game?’
You keep changing it :P
The idea of paying some LF to summon a minion is interesting, especially a scaling one. I could see it maybe as an elite (or as a trait that enhances Flesh Golem?) that summons a Shadow creature, like our Shadow Fiend, that scales up in power/looks. I think that is a cool idea, and it has the potential for enough risk (being left with 0 LF is a really dangerous thing as a Necro) to make up for the reward (a strong minion with special effects), and I could even see it being useful on non-MMs depending on its utility.
But I don’t see anything being added that would change depending on what you created it from. It isn’t the healthiest mechanic in PvP (we’ve seen Reanimator just be absolute garbage) because it basically adds to the snowballing mechanic that LF already has (weak until its built up, but really strong if you have a full bar before a fight), plus on-death is really weak. In PvE it would be interesting, I could see it in a number of forms, but the game doesn’t only have PvE so I’m not in favor of it just because it would either hurt PvP or just not be great in PvE.
Oh, that’s a disappointment. It would have been a great skill and it felt like the explosion is MY skill and not like a minion attack. Sad sad, another useless ability for pve >_>
I’m not actually sure how useless it is, it is very similar to the elementalist arcane skill, the only real problem I see with it is the ridiculous summon time. Otherwise it is 3.2k (base) damage with 2 blast finishers on a 20s CD.
They could make it scale with your precision/ferocity in PvE though, that would be fair and wouldn’t introduce PvP issues. Or just increase its base damage and lower the summon time, which they should do anyway.
Torment is good, but I don’t think it particularly makes up for what they lose compared to engi. There is just so much aids spam from Necro/Engi that I don’t see Necro/Revenant making up for, especially since it is ranged large AoE vs melee.
Weakness and Chill are both really good if you can keep them on an opponent a decent amount of the time. Weakness ends up being a 25% (base) average DPS loss, and a glancing backstab is like getting hit with a wet noodle compared to normal. Chill is also massive, since it allows you to kite even when crippled, and it destroys CDs.
Both are really strong conditions, but they are both balanced. Its also hard to complain since they don’t directly make you lose, they just make mistakes much harsher. Weakness really punishes using your big damage or bursts without thinking, and chill really hurts dumb use of bigger CDs. But at the end of the day its usually bad players who blanket complain about abilities, and bad players won’t even notice chill/weakness, they notice backstab or turrets or w/e.
Buff them with fury and they get a whopping 24% crit chance!
In all seriousness ive never understood why we dont have some stat sharing with minions. And traits which give minions boons or just copy our boons to them. Mesmer has plenty of traits which give clones boons.
Generally speaking I would worry that sharing stats would lead to a nerf of the base stats of minions, which would severely hurt their viability. Mesmer clones/phantasms are extremely different playstyle wise than minions.
For example, if Bone Minions used your crit chance, someone would do some cheese zerker MM build and when putrid explosion his for 4k each and all of a sudden I guarantee ANet would end up nerfing them, or never implementing the necessary changes that have to be made to make MM good (stat sharing isn’t the problem keeping them from working).
Similar problem with boon sharing, although it would be much easier to limit the extent of boon sharing without having issues of different builds getting different “use” out of it, so it would definitely be possible to work it in.
I don’t see why Necro/Revenant would be better than Necro/Engi.
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The entire point I’m making is that the corpse doesn’t matter. There is no functional difference to us between killing a giant monster or just having a bunch of chicken legs, because we do not raise the corpse or give it life. We take the bones and flesh, reshape them into one of the forms we use, and give it motion; it is entirely comparable to making a golem out of any other matter, only we use dead crap.
Putrid Explosion can crit, but it is based on bone minion crit chance and crit damage, not yours.
People play games for fun.
If you don’t have fun playing this game, then go play something else.
This guy gets it.
At the end of the day the only reason to play GW2 is for fun. That is the only reason to play literally any video game with the very rare exception of maybe League if you are in LCS is to have fun, otherwise its a waste of time.
You required a corpse for the raw materials to build your golem. You did not reanimate the body of whatever was dead, you simply used its body as the building pieces of a golem made of dead material. The change from GW1 to GW2 was ANet saying that there is probably enough dead stuff just around that you don’t specifically need to kill something new, you can just use the dead crap that is already there.
If you notice those spells they all say Animate X, as in no matter what corpse you use, you were animating a single type of minion (based on spell), NOT re-animating whatever died. This is because the corpse itself was irrelevant, it just needed to be something that had the basic bone and flesh building material to build whatever you were doing.
I’m not saying that OP’s idea is bad, it is something that Path of Exile did which was really cool in its own way. But it won’t happen from both a lore and gameplay perspective. The best we could hope for is racial summons (each race would have a slightly different set of minion skins based on what they would have at “home” to make them from).
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Don’t run flesh worm. Flesh worm is a horrible skill.
You’re wrong.
inb4 they call entering DS an upkeep skill
WOP is the only well that you do not have to stay inside of to get the full duration effect. And the last time I checked it, if you use it as ground targetable, then your allies can reap the same benefit at the expense of your own. Now that the cat’s out of the bag: incoming nerf
I wouldn’t expect it. WoC has been bugged for ages and they haven’t fixed it (beneficial bug).
Basically the only time they remove “unintentional” benefits is on accident (weapon swapping in DS), or when there is some “big” reason to (DS allowing you to land in areas they don’t want you in, people complaining about MM so putrid explosion is nerfed).
A decent part of it is that since it has a cast time it is worse as a stun break than the rest of our stun breaks, because it doesn’t work in some CC situations. It also doesn’t give mobility like the two most common ones, and has a higher CD. Basically, it doesn’t provide the most important aspect of our other common stun breaks (getting the kitten out of the bad situation).
Not that it is bad, I think WoP is actually basically fine as it is, and is a really good stun break, it just doesn’t happen to fit as well on the most common builds.
Don’t be sad Mesmers, at least you aren’t Necros.
Pre-casts are also stupid. After casts are stupid too, unless there is a good reason for it (as in, the ability is instant cast but then has an aftercast to slow down your rotation a bit still).
I literally just saw him online like yesterday or two days ago, at least I saw his account.
After casts are pretty generally awful things to have on skills.
So basically you want Well of Power to be a stronger version of Hallowed Ground in every way. The only reason it has stability right now is to cover the cast time of a stun-break that isn’t instant cast.
With that said, I am unsure of this, but I remember reading somewhere that bloodthirst would actually count towards my pets.
Bloodthirst works on all of your siphoning traits, Dagger 2, downed state 1, and Signet of the Locust (maybe others I’m forgetting, not sure). It does not heal your minions though, if that is what you are asking
In your build, you have two siphon traits and nothing else. Vampiric Master will trigger 2.167 times per second on average in ideal situations (falls to 1.75 any time bone minions are blown up).
I don’t actually trust the build editor, but according to it that means 2.167(58)1.2 for DPS and 2.167(49)1.2 for HPS, or 151 DPS and 127 HPS. The bloodthirst addition to that is only 25 DPS and 19 HPS.
On the other hand, Mark of Evasion is 2 Bleeds for 850 damage over 10 seconds (technically 10.5 but we will ignore the possibility for the 11th tick). That is 85 DPS, over 3 times as much DPS as Bloodthirst’s addition. It also grants a 6 second Regen, for 1050 HP, or a 105 HPS (10s ICD on MoE), this time 4 times higher healing. Both of these are also AoE, meaning your minions can be healed, and you can hit multiple enemies. On top of that is the cover condition that bleeds provide, meaning even if they get removed they will very likely cover your important conditions.
So basically, there is no reason to take Bloodthirst in an MM build, it just works out to be worse in every way.
Or at least the 4th. I put a well, but I may change it. I used that one in order to pull them near me so I could get regen off my number 4 skill of focus. But maybe the Well of Power would also be suitable?
If you are going to use your extra utility slot for a non-minion, use Bone Fiend instead of Shadow Fiend, and Well of Suffering. Extra vulnerability, a lot of extra damage (which you are going to lack), and you take Bone Fiend because it is much more reliable than Shadow Fiend, and the active is massively better, plus it will synergize with your well.
More information would definitely be nice. There is no reason I can see why Anet would be unable or unwilling to release that information. Saves us a lot of time and guessing about those removals.
1. Since it seems that lots of condition removal is Last condi In is the First Condi out, or LIFO, it’d be nice to get a LIFO indicator of some kind for conditions in the effects bar. Potentially the same for boons, if it’s the same behavior but I don’t know much about that mechanic.
This isn’t the case, both removals have built-in priority systems.
No, from a lore perspective Necromancers do not animate corpses for fighting. We have that ability, to a degree, but we don’t use it as a rule.
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PvP I will address both what we have and what we are really close to having or have had in the past:
Its simple don’t use axe in PvE. There are a lot of weapons that are awful in PvE, and axe will probably always be one of them. They also will not split skills, it is very much against what they want to do and they’ve already said they will not split unless absolutely necessary (and no matter what you feel they won’t feel this is absolutely necessary).
And Lupi can be solo’d by Necro, so… what’s your point.
“Fixing” Axe in PvE won’t do a single thing for our PvE viability. It will just give us another weapon to sulk in the corner with.
It also makes absolutely no sense for a power-based specialization to get rid of the best power weapon we have, and leave multiple condi weapons.
Staff is highly niche for PvE (I’m not even sure if its niche or just never used), you wouldn’t have it as a weapon swap.
You can’t compare random skills that have absolutely no comparisons. One is a weapon skill (that is not very good in PvP) and the other is part of a profession mechanic.
PvE was already covered well by spoj, so I’ll leave that.
PvP I will address both what we have and what we are really close to having or have had in the past:
Burst Boon Removal – we have some of the best burst boon removal in the game, with Corrupt Boon allowing our next advantage
Burst Condi Application – this has been lessened a lot, but CB, along with Fear chaining and a pretty strong burst condition rotation that can be fully covered by fear with nearly every single condition in the game makes it really strong, and not something that others can bring (other condis have more spread out pressure)
Area Condi Pressure – while this isn’t strictly unique to Necromancer (Engineer can do it slightly better), the classic Engi/Necro combo has always been a staple of condi pressure. Unfortunately mass condi removal has really slowed this.
Off-Point Defense – again, this isn’t something we see currently, but Necromancer has historically had great 1v1/2v2 builds that can do really well because of really strong defense in small fights, as well as a good mix of offensive pressure/CC/defense/healing.
Lich/Plague – game changing elites are really rare in this game, and we have two of them. If left uncountered Lich is a free teamfight win, and Plague is a free 20s melee counter.
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It’s hard to believe that over three years after the game’s release, it’s not 100% clear how boon removal is done. Is there priority for certain boons? If so, what is the priority list? Or is it the newest (or the most recently refreshed) boon that goes? I always thought it was the latter, but it’s hard to tell since the order in which boons are displayed aren’t changed when you refresh them before they expire.
There is a priority for every single skill. Those priorities tend to be somewhat “grouped”, as in corruption skills seem to have similar ones to each other, steals are somewhat similar, etc. But overall you basically need to have a guardian + the person removing boons and about 10 minutes per skill, and go through and test every single skill you want to know. It is absolutely annoying though that there is no in-game method of seeing this, we really need an “advanced” tooltips option, or this needs to be publicized by ANet and put onto the wiki at the very least.
I really don’t understand how they can allow this weapon to have so many issues for 2 years.
Because axe isn’t going to solve any of our issues on its own regardless. It will never be good enough in PvE to make up for our problems, and it won’t suddenly enable our power builds in PvP to be relevant.
Why does every necromancer skill have such a ridiculous cast time? The #3 skill, the dagger #5, everything seems to have some ridiculous delay, even wells. All while playing on my other classes I get skills that fire off pretty much immediately.
It is 1s for a skill that strips a boon, cripples for 5s, and can permanently stack retaliation. The skill is by no means bad, and the cast time is completely reasonable.
Then we have an entire collection of utilities centered on condition manipulation or minions, in a PvE game where people just cleanse conditions and mobs rarely use them or boons. Minions would seem like the one utility centered for power necromancers, but forget about that in any PvE content they’ll die to aoe immediately and they mess up speed runs.
Yeah… except for Signets, Wells, and Spectrals, all of which also work well on Power builds.
Death Shroud should give 3 seconds of stability baseline when entering it.
No it shouldn’t.
Necromancer cast times in general really needed to be more in line with GW1 Necros. Basically very quick counter/hex spells rather than the 1-2 seconds it take to cast many of our counter skills.
I’m not saying that we don’t have quite a few skills that need changes, but our entire profession is very different to GW1. Also, the vast majority of Necromancer skills in GW1 are 1s cast, almost all of the rest are 2s. We had comparably few skills that were sub 1s.
Death Shroud in my opinion should have had a mechanic that capped damage per second in DS to a % of your total life force bar (like 10-15%). That would have solved the spike and attrition issues with it.
This could be done very easily with all kinds of stuff, but it is worth mentioning that you already take half direct damage in DS, which is really strong on its own. SA is enough to nearly nullify damage done to you from one person while it is active (you only take 33% damage while having protection and in DS, plus gain LF when hit).
What if the axe auto did both Vulnerability stacks on the first hit, then stole endurance on the second? As in, target loses some, you gain some.
I think endurance drain on an auto attack is a bit too much. Not that endurance drain wouldn’t be good in some places, but Axe is a pretty fast auto attack, and endurance drain is pretty strong. As an example, just 5 energy drained basically cancels out endurance regen, and effectively gives us permanent vigor (while attacking). Less than that is too small for people to really feel like it is doing something for them, even if it is.
I’d love to see it, don’t get me wrong, just not sure that the AA is the spot for it. It could be incorporated into the 2 skill, which would also make it much easier for that skill to make itself more relevant because it would make it harder for it to be dodged.
What I would suggest to fix Axe is increase the AA and 2 skill’s range to 900 like others have said. It isn’t nor will it ever be a PvE weapon (just like Ranger LB isn’t), so splash isn’t that important. I’d also add a blast finisher to Unholy Feast.
One important thing to mention is that while Rapid Fire deals a bit more damage, it has a slightly higher CD as well. So if we want the damage to be equaled out, it should also have its CD raised to 10s just like Rapid Fire, have its damage (both base and power scaling) changed to be the same, and have its LF generation slightly increased to compensate the CD increase.
Also, I think we should get a trait that gives Vigor on channeling skills. It could give us say 1s of Vigor for every 1s we channel. That would give us 1 source of vigor on every build (DS 4), and up to two more in specific builds, but cost a trait, force you to use certain skills, and have counterplay to it. You could also change it to be some amount of energy drain on channeled skills, although you would probably put in some kind of ICD type effect so that DS 4 didn’t end up refilling your bar (maybe that isn’t bad though idk).
My guess is the new specialization will remove either scepter or axe if it removes a weapon. Its probably scepter, since greatsword doesn’t appear to have any meaningful synergy with that weapon (and you’d probably want staff on a condi build anyway) although I don’t remember them saying we had to lose access to old weapons, just a general idea that we’d lose something from the main profession.
I can’t speak much on specific stat choices, but Soldier is probably the best for WvW. Also there isn’t necessarily anything wrong with MM in roaming, I’m not sure if I’d recommend it because roaming exacerbates AI issues, but barring that its fine.
Bloodthirst is not worth taking. It just mathematically isn’t worth it, Mark of Evasion is literally better in every way if you want damage and healing. If you had Dagger it would be somewhat debatable, although transfusion is still too good to pass up, but at least then it’d be close. I’d take transfusion though, the ability to heal your minions, especially in the face of a strong AoE build is really helpful.
Use Bone Fiend over SG. You’re missing out damage, a really strong immobilize, you’re missing all the minion benefits you’d get as well, and Bone Fiend is a really reliable minion AI wise. It also fills nearly the exact same role.
If you’re going to use staff then use dagger on your extra weapon set or you lack damage way too much. Axe is only worth taking on an MM build if you are using it with dagger on the other set. I’d also really recommend a warhorn, everything it has synergizes with MM, plus the interrupt is insanely useful against blocks.
For runes I’d suggest a different set. Dolyak’s isn’t bad but the healing isn’t amazing, and MM’s issue isn’t living long enough, its not killing things fast enough. Pack runes, Ogre runes, even Traveler since you’re in WvW. Also you really want leeching on each weapon set (same deal, mo damage, plus healing), and the other is kinda open but energy is really strong (nothing wrong with condi removal though like you have now).
Overall though MM is fine, there are just small changes and you’re good to go.
We don’t animate corpses.
ALOT of our cast times are unneccesarily long or its a channeled skill while other classes do the same instantly, but yes, focus 5 takes takes the cake.
Pretty much. We could really use cast times being actually balanced towards the effect of the skill.
0s should be for abilities that don’t directly affect the enemy at all, are movement, or have some other reason (spectrals, minion actives, doom, DS entry/exit, transforms)
1/2s should be for summoning, and abilities with weaker direct effects on the enemy (Locust Swarm, Reaper’s Touch)
3/4s should be the standard cast
1s would be abilities that have a really strong effect on the enemy (Spinal Shivers)
>1s would be the abilities with really strong effects on an entire fight
Unfortunately, basically all of our abilities have had their cast times shifted way up the line, and other professions have had a number of theirs shifted down.
Build templates have been asked for since before the game was launched, still waiting on that. But yeah it would be nice.
It is dependent on the skill. Necromancers would kill to have stability remotely high in our removal priorities.
Does it combo? Don’t think I ever noticed weakness on my targets when using Putrid. I haven’t used minions in months though, so don’t take my word for it. I won’t be able to play till Sunday probably, so if anyone logs in later blow up a bone minion near a golem while waiting for a match for me please? :p
Also, does it combo instantly, or with the 3" delay? Just noticed I was wrong about Death Nova’s poison field being 3", wiki says it’s 4 so it would still combo with the delay.
Putrid Explosion will self combo with Death Nova 100% of the time, however it is delayed by 3 seconds.
When is Flesh Wurm ever usefull in a combat scenario? Since you need to summon it then use it again to TP to it , it just takes too long and you’ll get CC’d before you can use it. And if you set up the Flesh Wurm in advance it is extremely likely to die in an AE-Field before you can even TP to it. Or, alternatively, you’ll tp right into the AE field. It is just way too telegraphed in a PvP-Scenario, and as there is no way to reposition the Wurm it also is bad in PvE too (except if you want to use it to skip something, so OOC). As for the Golem, well, its an elite so if “only” the utility summons would be taken away it could stay.
Flesh Wurm has been used for a long time in the highest tiers of PvP. You can place it far away from the fight and it allows you to create z-axis separation from your opponent that cannot be followed without them also using a shadowstep. It is one of the best skills for both mobility and distance creation that we have, and there is no substitute for its use.
Depending on how old the Mesmers are they actually won a profession tournament IIRC.
I think wall is pretty good as is. Lots of protection, potential for fear, life force, it is a good skill that has decent synergy. If anything make the field thicker so finishers can actually be used on it.
All our utility sets have one-two really important skills. WoS for burst, SA for defense (SWalk could be argued), Flesh Wurm for teleport (Flesh Golem if you can’t use the other elites), SoS for power&condi burst, CB for spike boon removal (Epidemic could be argued).
The rest are pretty replaceable or niche, and the removal of any single setup will hurt someone just as much as the removal of any other would hurt someone else.
They’ve already shown it in game, and the taunt description, in game, is “Involuntarily attack foes.” So yes, we know how it will work, and it works exactly like Taunt has always worked, by forcing you to basic attack the person who taunted you.
AOE taunt would be awesome on Lich. Apparently people here do not understand how it works. It sends the enemy at their targeted player with only AA available. If it pulsed right away, they don’t all run at you…..they run at who they are attacking. Second, it’s auto attacks. Would you rather have nothing and let them just turn and attack you with everything they got. This would only benefit and is in no way a bad thing.
Taunt forces the player to attack the person who taunted them with auto attacks. It is a reverse-fear in that sense. So no, it would force everyone to attack you in Lich.
That’s actually why they implemented the daily system, in order to get people to play other professions.
Having it as an option is fine. But right now if you want to complete the PvP achievements you have to do it. Its hurting every game mode. Ranked ends up with people playing stuff they aren’t good at, unranked ends up being an awful practicing area because a 10 person game with only 2 professions is a wasted game practice wise, and hotjoins just ends up as an even worse version of how bad it already is.
Why is it important to force PvPers to play other professions if they don’t want to?
They even consider “Blind” a CC. Do you REALLY think Chill wouldn’t be?
Yes. Blind currently interacts with the those buffs, chill does not.
As for mediocre DPS, i call bullkitten. Watch the videos of “I am one and i am legion” on youtube, he has a very good video showing of that, in fact, our damage can measure up to that of a warrior. Our REAL problem is no group buffs. As for whether or not that will change, we’ll see.
That video is full of bad asumptions. Nothing against Nemesis, he had other great theory crafting videos, but that one is not one of them. Warrior has higher DPS than Necromancer, any of the PvE DPS calculations can show you that.
As for defiance, let’s just say that Necro is a profession that can bring 4-7 CC’s on a set without loosing damage. Warriors would lose a pretty hefty amount of DPS if they tried to bring that much CC. Let’s see, GS on Warri has… 4 second Cripple. On one skill. Power (Zerker) Necro usually runs Dagger + Focus/Warhorn. That is a immob on dagger, a daze and a lot of cripple on warhorn (especially traited) and chill on focus, as well as some nice vulnerability stacking. On Dagger/Warhorn + Staff it is immob, daze, cripple, chill and fear. And then there is another fear in DS avaiable to both options. Then the trait of inflicting Chill every x seconds after the target is below 50% hp, and, if you can fit it in there, blind and bleeding on entering DS. Thats a lot of CC the Necro can dish out alone, while NOT shaving off his DPS because its what power necros tend to run anyway.
That is a lot of assumptions on what will work with Defiant, and just a lot of assumptions in general. Also any skill cast that isn’t part of your DPS rotation is a drop in DPS. It might be true that Necromancer can have access to a decent few CCs in their power build, and some of them might not cripple their DPS, but that doesn’t mean that they will actually deal with defiant any better than another profession who will fit PvE better.
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Greatsword has a lot of potential. Ranged isn’t that important on MM, so long as the weapon works well, and greatsword boasts heavy chill uptime, one of the single best MM conditions ever. Also very unlikely to lose minions because we’re based on Marj and she summons plenty still.
WoS though? I don’t much like dark fields, blind is a marginal condition. Time to bump the “make well of blood a water field” thread maybe? :p
Less about the blast finishers, more about WoS dealing thousands of damage on top of another 3-4k from Putrid Explosion.
Speaking of the putrid blast delay, has anyone considered that it might be a stealth nerf to make it never combo with Death Nova? Its poison field is 3" long too, isn’kitten Or am I being paranoid?
It always combos with death nova, so its probably just a bug.
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Its not a necessarily bad idea, but it won’t happen unless we see a minion specialization or if it is trait based. I’d also argue that Death Shroud is really important to playing MM, because it allows you to stall when minions are down or minion actives are on CD.