Guild Wars 2

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Obviously there will always be some sort of meta, but the current problem we face with GW2 is that the efficiency gap between zerker builds and less damage-oriented builds is enormous. It’s rather evident that there’s a balancing fault when having 1 person bringing defensive gear to a zerker party actually makes a run take longer to complete and makes it more difficult at the same time. If anything, it should be a purely linear tradeoff.

This is completely false. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and a pug group that has a mismatch of builds and doesnt utilise all tools at their disposal is enormous. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and the same group using defensive gear but all the same buffs and strategies is very small.

We have proof of this. My guild did a no dodge fully defensive arah p2 a year back and we were deliberately very slow. Yes the entire run still only took 30 minutes. Which was faster than most pugs at the time. And we were certainly using worse builds for the run. We werent even stacking might and we werent using any remotely valid strategies yet we were faster than a pug.

Its the players that make the difference. The builds and gear are completely overshadowed by proper strategies and group buffing.

Obviously in-depth knowledge of the dungeon layout and structure of each encounter provides an advantage, but your example doesn’t really provide a counterpoint to what I said about using “easier” gear actually making things more difficult for a group that is primarily centered around DPS-oriented builds.

In a way, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot with this argument, because saying that strategy and expertise triumphs over builds and gear just makes the elitist mentality that many carry behind the zerker meta all the more unjustified. Which one is it?

Yeah i admit that was a poor example. However I can expand on that example. That was basically the worst possible composition and builds yet it wasnt that bad for time. If we had actually used proper strategies and stacked buffs with those terrible builds we would have saved 15 minutes easily.

The gap between berserker and other builds is not enormous. Its trivial. Its all the other factors that make the gap.

If that’s the case, then I still don’t get why people make such a big deal about zerker/meta setups. If the build and gear aren’t that great of a factor, then why are so many people so snobbish about it? Most pug groups don’t go trying to shatter time records, so how come people emphasize having zerker gear/meta build groups, over simply asking for people with adequate dungeon knowledge? The two aren’t necessarily directly related to each other.

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Obviously there will always be some sort of meta, but the current problem we face with GW2 is that the efficiency gap between zerker builds and less damage-oriented builds is enormous. It’s rather evident that there’s a balancing fault when having 1 person bringing defensive gear to a zerker party actually makes a run take longer to complete and makes it more difficult at the same time. If anything, it should be a purely linear tradeoff.

This is completely false. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and a pug group that has a mismatch of builds and doesnt utilise all tools at their disposal is enormous. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and the same group using defensive gear but all the same buffs and strategies is very small.

We have proof of this. My guild did a no dodge fully defensive arah p2 a year back and we were deliberately very slow. Yes the entire run still only took 30 minutes. Which was faster than most pugs at the time. And we were certainly using worse builds for the run. We werent even stacking might and we werent using any remotely valid strategies yet we were faster than a pug.

Its the players that make the difference. The builds and gear are completely overshadowed by proper strategies and group buffing.

Obviously in-depth knowledge of the dungeon layout and structure of each encounter provides an advantage, but your example doesn’t really provide a counterpoint to what I said about using “easier” gear actually making things more difficult for a group that is primarily centered around DPS-oriented builds.

In a way, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot with this argument, because saying that strategy and expertise triumphs over builds and gear just makes the elitist mentality that many carry behind the zerker meta all the more unjustified. Which one is it?

It will probably have at least moderate DPS since it will be a melee weapon, but it probably will sacrifice some damage for the supportive utility it will provide over a more offensively-oriented melee weapon.

While they’re at it, can they make Thieves NOT steal a skill that provides a daze, which is something that Guardians don’t even have access to with their entire skillset? Thanks.

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Obviously there will always be some sort of meta, but the current problem we face with GW2 is that the efficiency gap between zerker builds and less damage-oriented builds is enormous. It’s rather evident that there’s a balancing fault when having 1 person bringing defensive gear to a zerker party actually makes a run take longer to complete and makes it more difficult at the same time. If anything, it should be a purely linear tradeoff.

Obtena.7952:

You think Anet’s intention for the design and purpose of the elite spec is irrelevant. That’s an interesting perspective … I would say it’s the only relevant intention seeing as they are the ones that make the game and all that.

I get you don’t like it, but that doesn’t make what Anet wants the class to be irrelevant. It’s going to be whatever they want it to be and that is as relevant as something can get. You can be critical and offer your ideas of what you think is wrong without degrading your own statements with ridiculous comments that Anet’s intentions are not relevant to the game. Of course they are.

Please stop being so dense and actually read through an entire post, for a change. Intentions are irrelevant to criticism. That’s all I said, and that’s all that needs to be said about the matter. They can do whatever the kitten they want with their game, but if players think that they’re making stupid decisions, then they have every right to say so. I don’t care what their reasoning is, and I don’t care what your reasoning is.

All I’ve ever seen you do is talk down on people that provide less than optimal feedback. I’m really sick of your condescension, and would really appreciate it if you’d just shut up.

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

The idea though is that we shouldn’t have to take the bow in order to make use of the new spec.

Is that really the idea? You already don’t have to take bow to make use of the new spec. The question is if the new spec can be optimal for anything BUT the LB and even then, I don’t believe we have been told anything to make us think it should be.

People need to stop projecting what they THINK things should be like and look at what they really will be.

I can easily see the Chronomancer or the Reaper being incorporated into current Mesmer and Necro builds, even without the shield and GS. I can’t see a single reason (outside of maybe PvE hero damage modifiers) to take DH if you don’t plan on using the bow. It’s pretty sad that, being a Guardian main who has hardly touched Necro, I can still come up with more effective build possibilities for the Reaper than I can for the DH.

How other classes work isn’t a very compelling argument to how you think Guard Elite should work. Again, you don’t know if Anet’s ntention was to provide non-LB builds with tools using DH and if it was, if those non-LB builds would be optimal. I’m willing to bet that Anet didn’t intend it all because our current builds are quite effective. It stands to reason that there is no need to provide a whole bunch of awesome, non-LB stuff in the DH spec because of that.

As far as I’m concerned, the new meta depends on much more than just one profession’s new toolset. Guards didn’t have many options; we have a few themes with variations. The DH line just adds another theme. The argument if it’s optimal or if it works well with other weapons seems really irrelevant; anyone wanting to play the new theme is obviously going to gravitate towards the LB and the DH line. There are going to be places where this approach will be good and others where it’s not.

What you don’t seem to understand, and haven’t been able to grasp at all apparently, is that I don’t give two kittens what Anet’s intention was. It’s irrelevant. They can have the surest intentions in the world and have more conviction than anyone, but if their decision is a bad one I’m going to call them out for it. The entire idea behind criticism is that it’s provided by a different perspective that isn’t biased by the efforts and motivations behind the object being criticized. A widow can paint her masterpiece using the inspiration of her husband’s death, but if it’s a kittenty painting it’s a kittenty painting, no matter how deep the intentions behind it are.

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

The idea though is that we shouldn’t have to take the bow in order to make use of the new spec.

Is that really the idea? You already don’t have to take bow to make use of the new spec. The question is if the new spec can be optimal for anything BUT the LB and even then, I don’t believe we have been told anything to make us think it should be.

People need to stop projecting what they THINK things should be like and look at what they really will be.

I can easily see the Chronomancer or the Reaper being incorporated into current Mesmer and Necro builds, even without the shield and GS. I can’t see a single reason (outside of maybe PvE hero damage modifiers) to take DH if you don’t plan on using the bow. It’s pretty sad that, being a Guardian main who has hardly touched Necro, I can still come up with more effective build possibilities for the Reaper than I can for the DH.

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

Obtena.7952:

Does anyone here actually think it’s possible to balance every class against every other? If you do, you’re not very experienced or reasonable.

By this logic, you should probably just quit trying in life, because you’ll never be perfect.

… Right?

I just realize the futility of trying to balance vs. one profession while ignoring the impact vs. all others. It’s pretty silly actually, along with your analogy.

Guardian too strong vs. thief? OK, there are professions that eat Guards for breakfast. Tell me where the balancing point is here if a change is made to make Guards less strong on thief? There isn’t because it can’t and it shouldn’t. What does anyone actually want to achieve when they say one class is strong vs. another? That’s just lacking the oversight of a bigger picture here. This game isn’t designed to 1 vs. 1 PVP encounters so it’s really not relevant if that premise of this thread is even true.

I don’t think we should have nemesis classes but like I’ve already said, anyone that thinks that all professions are going to balance equally against every other is unrealistic and inexperienced. That’s not saying it can’t be better but what does better mean? Most people do not take into account that this is a complex interaction.

Nobody is questioning whether perfect balance can be achieved. Saying “hey, it can’t be perfect” is a terrible excuse for not even trying to improve it at all.

That’s true. I never suggested perfection so I don’t get why you’re grinding on me here. I’m questioning what the purpose of ‘improving’ the situation would be in the Guardian/Thief matchup and if people gave even a fleeting thought to the fact that it would change other aspects of Guardian PVP where they may actually be deficient.

Obtena.7952:

Does anyone here actually think it’s possible to balance every class against every other? If you do, you’re not very experienced or reasonable.

I took the liberty of paraphrasing it slightly, but you’re essentially trying to shoot down any sort of discussion on balancing on the basis that it will never reach its full optimal potential. Which is counterproductive, and not at all desirable. If you don’t have anything better to say, then please go away.

Asmodal.6489:

Because not everyone is looking for a Meta dps line.

Except that’s literally all it’s good for otherwise, is a couple of % damage modifiers for use in optimal PvE runs that are the only situation where you’ll actually have enough uptime on them to be worth taking over a different, more useful traitline.

maha.7902:

Things like hammer warriors and chill necros (zomg, necros with party support) will actually be desirable in high end PvE content

or the warrior knocks down with mace 5 or uses throw bolas and then carries on hammering away.

I wish people who don’t actually play at the high end would stop trying to give feedback on what they think the high end should be when they don’t even understand it.

It’s been quite a while, but I used to do a lot of “high-end” PvE. Didn’t go for any sort of record runs, but I did dungeon tours with full zerker meta groups. It was boring as kitten, which is why I stopped in favor of the occasional PvP match.

So please, go somewhere else with your BM.

NikeEU.7690:

Black Box.9312:

You don’t have to eliminate active defense to discourage the zerker meta. You just have to eliminate the ability to negate everything with it. Give mobs small, quick hits combined with larger, more telegraphed ones, and suddenly it becomes a choice of what you can avoid and when to avoid it, rather than just waiting every 3 seconds or so for the next big attack to dodge or block with aegis. Combine this with smarter mobs that make use of mobility and CC, and you have more room for build diversity that encourages (at the very least) more sustain alongside your damage.

How does having unavoidable damage promote skilled gameplay when the solution you want to it is more passive defense? The “quick fast attacks” thing has been repeated for so long by so many that no one has bothered to think about the implications. Wearing tanky gear to solve your defensive problems in a combat system like this is a solution that requires no play skill and thus encourages no play skill improvement. The solution to this is not to dumb the game down with unavoidable damage and passive stats, but to actually make it harder by require use of more of our active tool kit.

The real solution is, as I said, stressing the active tool kit: dodges, blocks, reflects, coordinated blasts of water fields, positioning, key interrupts etc. Most encounters right now only make you do one or two of those things at most to succeed. New encounters that put all of your resources to the test are the solution.

Because “skilled gameplay” is just as much about reaction time and critical thinking as it is about execution. A skilled player will still be able to excel in high damage, low defense gear because they will be able to act quickly and be able to make on-the-spot decisions about what needs to be avoided as opposed to what they can afford to take a hit from. It’s not dumbing the game down; I’d actually argue the opposite. Active defense would still be very much a thing. It just wouldn’t be the only thing. Would zerker builds still be the most efficient? Probably, but it would be a hell of a lot less polarizing than what we have right now.

The other half of the equation needed for this to work is more intelligent mob AI. We need more enemies that are capable of avoiding damage if not properly locked down. Is it annoying when an enemy dodges your burst? Yes, but it’s also a learning experience in that you know next time to make use of CC before you unload your damage. Things like hammer warriors and chill necros (zomg, necros with party support) will actually be desirable in high end PvE content even though they might not provide optimal DPS.

The idea though is that we shouldn’t have to take the bow in order to make use of the new spec. Things like +10% damage from > 600 range and extra cripple damage and cripple on knockback are all things that clearly were not implemented with the base class in mind, because without DH and the bow we have very little access to knockback, one weapon with > 600 range (that arguably doesn’t even work from that kind of distance) and literally ZERO access to cripple. I’d rather just take Zeal instead and have a more reliable +10% damage to burning targets (since we actually have a lot of that condition), and use that cripple sigil to keep the enemy in my symbol for an extra +20% damage.

As for the immob on VoJ, the trait has an ICD of 30 seconds (24 if traited for signets, probably). So the cooldown of your F1 really doesn’t make a difference, sadly.

Larynx.2453:

Ele sustain is overpowered, but it’s split into 20 different mechanics, instead of just one, so it’s a harder target for QQ.

Not to say that ele sustain doesn’t have any room for adjustment, but is this really comparable if it takes that much more effort to keep up your sustain? Healing Signet grants it to you for doing literally nothing at all.

You don’t have to eliminate active defense to discourage the zerker meta. You just have to eliminate the ability to negate everything with it. Give mobs small, quick hits combined with larger, more telegraphed ones, and suddenly it becomes a choice of what you can avoid and when to avoid it, rather than just waiting every 3 seconds or so for the next big attack to dodge or block with aegis. Combine this with smarter mobs that make use of mobility and CC, and you have more room for build diversity that encourages (at the very least) more sustain alongside your damage.

Condi removal would be nice, but I’m more interested in having a block as well as eliminating the channeling requirement for the bubble. As you said, there’s essentially no reason at all to keep it up after using it for the knockback.

Episcopos.5206:

For those that say it doesnt Senergy with anything else, that won’t be true if you go for the sigil that crips enemies and the trait on DH that does 10% damage on crippled enemies.

For one thing, that’s a sigil, and not a part of the base class. Second, that sigil has (at best) a 40% uptime in increments of 2 seconds. As much as I’d love for it to work, I don’t see it being a very reliable way to make use of that damage boost. And since the base class has zero access to cripple outside of our underwater downed state autoattack… Yeah, I’d say that that’s kind of a lack of synergy issue.

I’m just really sad that DH has both a terrible name and an incredible lack of synergy with the base class.

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

Obtena.7952:

Does anyone here actually think it’s possible to balance every class against every other? If you do, you’re not very experienced or reasonable.

By this logic, you should probably just quit trying in life, because you’ll never be perfect.

… Right?

I just realize the futility of trying to balance vs. one profession while ignoring the impact vs. all others. It’s pretty silly actually, along with your analogy.

Guardian too strong vs. thief? OK, there are professions that eat Guards for breakfast. Tell me where the balancing point is here if a change is made to make Guards less strong on thief? There isn’t because it can’t and it shouldn’t. What does anyone actually want to achieve when they say one class is strong vs. another? That’s just lacking the oversight of a bigger picture here. This game isn’t designed to 1 vs. 1 PVP encounters so it’s really not relevant if that premise of this thread is even true.

I don’t think we should have nemesis classes but like I’ve already said, anyone that thinks that all professions are going to balance equally against every other is unrealistic and inexperienced. That’s not saying it can’t be better but what does better mean? Most people do not take into account that this is a complex interaction.

Nobody is questioning whether perfect balance can be achieved. Saying “hey, it can’t be perfect” is a terrible excuse for not even trying to improve it at all. The spec rework should hopefully help with this a bit, but Anet is still doing a poor job with their bi-yearly balance updates. By comparison, most eSport games that they’re trying oh so desperately to join the ranks of have balance updates every week. Do they have perfect balance? No, but they’re a hell of a lot closer than this game is.

Thaddeus.4891:

Bash.7291:

Carrion will be far better with this, with the crit chance we recieve from radiance, we wont really need anything else from celestial

I’m not so sure about that. Radiance + Celestial amulet won’t reach 100% critical chance so it won’t be wasted. At the same time you don’t want to put too much pts into condition since you will mostly be direct damage with only a bit of condition (you only have fire after all).

In the end, the reason to take celestial is to make a good build all around. A bit of power damage, a bit of condition damage and a bit of healing. If celestial don’t work with a Guardian, then there is just no reason to take carrion and we’ll stick to Berserker.

Celestial is only working in the current meta with classes that can consistently stack might. Guardian has some access to might, but it’s mostly very short in duration and the fact that celestial guard isn’t meta already shows that it really isn’t enough, and we aren’t really getting anything might-related that we didn’t already have.

Carrion, on the other hand, is perfect for a hybrid build that doesn’t require extra precision. Guardians don’t have any on-crit condition procs, and Radiance gives a nice boost to crit chance anyway, so the extra vitality is far more valuable than more precision. The lack of toughness can be partially made up for with Strength in Numbers becoming accessible to a meta meditation build, so the power and condition damage is really all that you need from your gear.

I’m not sure that hybrid guardian will be the meta build, necessarily, but it’d certainly be more effective with a carrion amulet as opposed to a celestial one.

ODB.6891:

I’m just gonna bide my time and wait for the PvE tears to start pouring out when DH guards start getting excluded from small PvE group content. This entire trait line is filled with extraordinarily bad ideas.

1. Pure of Sight – incentive to camp range in instanced PvE regardless of the encounter
2. Heavy Light – auto knock back in PvE
3. Hunter’s Fortification – short radius group buff on a class camping range
4. Focus on condi damage in instanced PvE
5. Zealot’s Aggression – reliance on cripple/knock back for melee weapon synergy

I’m pretty sure, that once the new wears off of this elite spec, there are going to be some bitter tears on these forums regarding anything not open world in PvE. I can’t even imagine much favor in open world for a spec using knock back on a routine basis. People thought that rangers received a lot of hate for PBS…at least they had to actively use that ability to trigger the knock back…Heavy Light is going to trigger that automatically if the DH isn’t far enough away on any given attack.

I’m sure this will all be a completely different story in a different content type, which probably the entire point of this elite spec design. I just think they should have modeled this more like the reaper or chronomancer elite specs where the specializations actually have strong synergy and cross weapon appeal. The other elite specs open up many more build options than DH does because they don’t funnel you into a specific weapon. The reaper can play any weapon type and not be shafted on traits. The reaper has exactly one trait specific to the GS and it is on a major trait..completely avoidable. The chronomancer is pretty much the same, there is nothing that unavoidably makes me want to avoid other trait lines or specific weapons.

Exactly. DH looks like a spec that is almost entirely worthless without the bow, and even with it the traits have pretty much nothing that complements the base class. I really don’t see how people can think otherwise.

Azure.8670:

Am I the only one that thinks the Rev seems more like a Guardian… Than a Guardian?

Yep. Which is why I’ll likely be jumping on the bandwagon. I’m sick of being consistently disappointed with the directions they’re taking with the Guardian.

I hate having to rely on sword for mobile damage, because the projectile autoattack is horrendous. It should just be replaced by something that cleaves and isn’t reflected since, y’know, it’s a melee attack. Honestly, I hate how much our melee weapons are projectile-based in general. It ends up being very counterproductive.

Also our shield skills are awful. The bubble can be excused if they’d just get rid of the rooting effect, but the 4 skill should really just be scrapped in favor of something else entirely.

Other than that, I like our weapon sets and skills, but quite a few of them could definitely use some fine-tuning. Sword 3 and torch 5 in particular should be made less situational and more worth using off cooldown, and the third hit of the mace and hammer chains should be a little faster IMO. Expanding on the mace, the third hit of the autoattack should cleave, and the block should be given the properties of every other weapon block (counter that doesn’t proc from a ranged attack, can be cancelled during the channel for its secondary effect).

I think the fact that there’s already speculation on the next Guardian elite spec should be a clear sign that the upcoming one is a bust.

Obtena.7952:

Does anyone here actually think it’s possible to balance every class against every other? If you do, you’re not very experienced or reasonable.

By this logic, you should probably just quit trying in life, because you’ll never be perfect.

… Right?

My guess is that people might take DH for the bow, but if you don’t plan on using the bow there’s really no point in it. I think Radiance/Valor/Virtues will probably end up being the go-to setup in that case.

Sigh… People assuming they know what I think and mean, when really they don’t at all.

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

Asmodal.6489:

Sylent.3165:

The ONLY thing I truly don’t like anymore is the 3rd virtue change. I used to always use mine during champions for certain groups to avoid damage. Just a little bummed about that change.

erm… it does everything it did before. you hit it = you get aegis. in additon you block everything for 3-5 secs infront of you. its probably one of the strongest assets of the DH line.

I do not think you need to be bummed out.

I’m almost certain that it will not provide party aegis anymore. Spear of Justice is not going to be given to allies, and Wings of Resolve is going to have 1/5 the heal radius. It’s a pretty safe assumption that the new virtues will not be viable for party support.

Hi Black box,

It is in dulfys notes. And it was specifically said in the presentation. I dont want to nag you but you seem to have strong opinions and draw up “safe assumption” without having all the facts straight. Might wanna read through all of it again.

I agree with you on the Wings of resolve part.

Just checked it, it says that YOU still get aegis, but it says nothing in the tooltip about any sort of radius for allied aegis. With the radius nerf of WoR, it’s really difficult to say how this will end up working out.

Asmodal.6489:

Sylent.3165:

The ONLY thing I truly don’t like anymore is the 3rd virtue change. I used to always use mine during champions for certain groups to avoid damage. Just a little bummed about that change.

erm… it does everything it did before. you hit it = you get aegis. in additon you block everything for 3-5 secs infront of you. its probably one of the strongest assets of the DH line.

I do not think you need to be bummed out.

I’m almost certain that it will not provide party aegis anymore. Spear of Justice is not going to be given to allies, and Wings of Resolve is going to have 1/5 the heal radius. It’s a pretty safe assumption that the new virtues will not be viable for party support.

No, wards and Sanctuary are not reliable knockbacks. They are completely contingent upon the enemy running into them. You don’t need cripple when they’re trapped inside the ring. You need cripple when they teleport out of it and are opening the gap between you. This is the reason why I didn’t even consider them in the first place, because they are not controlled by you, but rather by the enemy deciding to run into it without first popping stability. And it’s just plain dumb to assert that using a knockback with a melee weapon is an effective way to keep the enemy in range of your attacks, because it has literally the opposite effect.

I refuse to believe that Defender’s Dogma will be of any use. Full condi guardian will still not be a thing even after this update, so a hybrid build is really the closest you’ll be able to get. And a hybrid build would most certainly benefit more from the 15% damage + 10 seconds of guaranteed burning instead of trying to base your build around a trait that, yet again, relies on specific enemy actions to be effective.

I’d like to add to this that traps are still a horrible idea, and as long as they’ll exist in their current iteration they will not be effective to build around. A trap only works if the enemy doesn’t see you plant it ahead of time, doesn’t know where it is, isn’t able to predict that it’d be on a standard chokepoint, and just happens to run into it, and decides to NOT dodge or teleport out of it. Yet again, we are relying on a situation where the enemy has to fulfill a specific set of circumstances for your build to work. See a pattern here at all? I don’t want to have to rely on my enemy to essentially kill himself for me, because at least 9 times out of 10 that’s not going to happen. I want to be able to use the tools at my disposal to kill him myself.

Asmodal.6489:

erm… I can see where you heading at but I think you have the wrong approach. You want to the DH Traitline to be the go to traitline for any build? by that definition you can argue that Honor does not make sense if you dont go for shouts (cause why symbols no ones stands in them), and Zeal is worthelss if you do not go for direct dps.

AA maybe but how is scepter #2+#3 ureliable from range? and again by that definiton you can argue that taking zeal panalizes me if I do not play with symbols, or if I do not center around blocks while taking valor with might of the protector. Still I am with you: could pure of sight be a little more useful across all builds > sure!

1. Banish
2. Ring of Warding
3. Line of warding
4. Protective reviver
5. Shield of absorption
6. Sanctuary

So on the one hand you argue that banish knock back is too far but cripple is counterintuitiv? Knock backs are a great way of interrupt and control adding cripple to them is even better. It is a defensiv tool. argueing that you cant follow up melee dps is beside the point.

you may want to reevaluate on ground of these. it might not change your opinion but may open up a little more use for gameplay.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sanctuary
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ward

of course they could add kitten cripple when immobilized to dulled senses but i feel that would get quite strong.

take both and do more damage? except for shelter all of our blocks are not channeled so you basically win everytime except if it activates at the 5th hit simultaniously. If you are argueing it is not worth taking a trailine for a minor trait. then well i agree with you but this is true for every other traitline as well.

I agree. this needs more punch.

you are entitled to your opinion but I do think what you are asking for is a meta trait line. you do not want to take a traitline that makes you better in every aspect of what you already good at.

Half of scepter’s damage is from the autoattack, so you’re not going to be doing enough damage with just Smite to make this trait worthwhile.

Sorry, but wards and Sanctuary do not count as reliable knockbacks. They require the enemy to run into them in order to proc. Also Protective Reviver is very situational, so I wouldn’t really see that as counting either.

The point behind my cripple/knockback argument is that if you’re using a melee weapon, a knockback is intended to be used to keep the enemy away from you. What’s the point of tying our cripple access to it, when the cripple is meant to provide the opposite effect?

Why would I ever want to make use of Defender’s Dogma when I could just use the active spear and gain a 15% damage increase? It’s a silly trait that will have virtually no impact on a fight.

I’m not looking for a “meta” spec, I’m just looking for something that will actually fit with current builds, and won’t be conflicting with almost everything the current guardian has to offer. Is that really too much to ask for?

McWolfy.5924:

Black Box.9312:

Basically, people finally realized that warrior makes for a better guardian than guardian does.

And guardian will be better ranger as ranger

Just another reason why I’m NOT excited for the Dragonhunter.

ProtoGunner.4953:

I’d personally prefer “Arbiter”. But I don’t care that much about the name. This thread just shows how few problems we have. 41 pages of raging only be cause the name doesn’t please you? That’s ridiculous… After a couple of months playing as “Dragonhunter” (unless they change the name) no one cares. Just move on, my god, the class won’t be different to play…

Yet again, I have to reiterate that the general opinion of the name of the spec has no correlation to whether or not people like the actual spec. The only thing that makes this issue stand out is that something as simple as the name would likely be more easily pressured into being changed.

Saiyan.1704:

Black Box.9312:

Basically, people finally realized that warrior makes for a better guardian than guardian does.

And medi guardian makes for a better warrior than a warrior does.

Meh. Medi guard is good at what it does, but I wouldn’t really consider it to be warrior-like. Closer to a battlemage.

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

Saiyan.1704:

Black Box.9312:

A dragonhunter that doesn’t use the bow is only hindering himself by not taking a traitline better suited to his build, IMO. It has no synergy with the base class.

Completely not true.

Bad speculation is bad.

How is it completely not true? The traits are exclusively centered around the bow, cripple (which we have virtually none of outside of the bow), one awful trap trait for some awful traps, and a few traits for the new virtues. From what I’ve seen, access to the new virtues is not worth the opportunity cost of missing out on a more useful third traitline.

I really can not understand how unimaginativ some of you are. yes there are traits centered around LB but NOT exclusivly!!

Defender’s Dogma + Shields of Courage is not a channeld skill
Combine it with Scepter #2, Symbols, GS #3 and amplified wrath // ad Bulwark for even more burns – we are talking about serious stacking. If it is viable is only a question of the final numbers.

Soaring devestation is a 3s root that does not even make sense with a bow

Dulled Senses is for knock backs. we have 6 knock backs outside of long bow.

Hunter’s Fortification most people do not like. its for every virtue. Even panic 12-16 secs pbaoe protection is good in my book. Combine it with Renewed Justice we get even more hard to crack. perma protection is no joke.

How is Big Game Hunter an exclusiv LB trait? 15% more damage for 10 secs and 10sec vurnability that does apply for every hit and reapply quickly as a cover conditon even if cleansed? we are basically talking about 25-30% damage boost.

Generalisation makes no sense at this point
You are absolutley right however that we wil have to make tough choices. But not because DH trait line is lacking but because others are good to.
Will it be meta? – maybe not. But is that really the point? because if it was they could have just deleted the options to trait anything anyways.

That’s pretty much just reinforcing my point. The only thing that the traitline has to offer if you don’t take the bow is the changed virtues, which IMO is not worth sacrificing any of the existing traitlines for.

-Given how unreliable scepter is from long range, Pure of Sight will only benefit longbow users. You’ll essentially be penalized for being within melee range.

-Of the 6 knockbacks you mentioned I only know of one (or two if you count Banish, which knocks the target too far away from you for any sort of successful follow-up with a melee weapon). This trait was essentially placed in the game with the bow knockback trait in mind, as going for one without the other seems like it’d be pretty pointless. Besides, isn’t the point of a knockback to get the enemy away from you? Forcing your snare to rely on it seems quite counterintuitive to me.

-Because of this limited knockback access and zero access to cripple outside of the bow and the above trait, Dulled Senses is really a poor choice anywhere outside of a PvE encounter where a thief or ranger with sword can offer permanent cripple uptime. I’d rather go into Zeal and take Fiery Wrath so I can get my +10% damage with a condition that I actually have decent access to.

-Defender’s Dogma is a joke. I’d rather just take Amplified Wrath and deal more burning damage and gain burning on block instead of block just refreshing the passive effect of the virtue that I usually activate in fights anyway.

-Piercing Light… lol. If condition guard ever becomes a thing, it definitely will not be because of this trait. Putting traps on your utility bar will already limit your potential; traiting for them will just hinder you more.

I did say that the new virtues looked pretty neat earlier. I just don’t think that taking them will be worth sacrificing a current spec that actually provides class synergy.

Saiyan.1704:

Black Box.9312:

Totbot.4583:

You can make a melee DH build that doesn’t use a single trap or a bow and all you really lose out on is a single minor trait. That’s not that big of a deal. You also don’t need to take any of the cripple stuff.

First tier lets you add damage and immob to your virtue leap. That seems fine for melee since its melee that’s going to want to leap to an enemy and keep it in place. 2nd tier you can take Bulwark. A bigger and longer shield is pretty good for melee since it’ll allow you to negate range attacks on you and your team until you can get into melee range. Big Game Hunter is obviously amazing.

All 3 new virtues also work great for melee. Leaps are great for melee. Being able to block attacks is great for melee. The justice tether requires you to stay somewhat close to the enemy, so yet again just fine for melee.

If you’re not seeing any potential for melee with Dragonhunter you just aren’t looking hard enough. Or you’re really caught up on a single minor trait. But guess what? Not all minor traits are always going to be super useful or powerful for every build. Reaper has a minor trait that chills on fear. That’s really only going to be useful if you build around having a lot of fear sources. If you don’t, you’re only going to have one skill that fears so the minor trait is underwhelming.

A dragonhunter that doesn’t use the bow is only hindering himself by not taking a traitline better suited to his build, IMO. It has no synergy with the base class.

Completely not true.

Bad speculation is bad.

How is it completely not true? The traits are exclusively centered around the bow, cripple (which we have virtually none of outside of the bow), one awful trap trait for some awful traps, and a few traits for the new virtues. From what I’ve seen, access to the new virtues is not worth the opportunity cost of missing out on a more useful third traitline.

Totbot.4583:

You can make a melee DH build that doesn’t use a single trap or a bow and all you really lose out on is a single minor trait. That’s not that big of a deal. You also don’t need to take any of the cripple stuff.

First tier lets you add damage and immob to your virtue leap. That seems fine for melee since its melee that’s going to want to leap to an enemy and keep it in place. 2nd tier you can take Bulwark. A bigger and longer shield is pretty good for melee since it’ll allow you to negate range attacks on you and your team until you can get into melee range. Big Game Hunter is obviously amazing.

All 3 new virtues also work great for melee. Leaps are great for melee. Being able to block attacks is great for melee. The justice tether requires you to stay somewhat close to the enemy, so yet again just fine for melee.

If you’re not seeing any potential for melee with Dragonhunter you just aren’t looking hard enough. Or you’re really caught up on a single minor trait. But guess what? Not all minor traits are always going to be super useful or powerful for every build. Reaper has a minor trait that chills on fear. That’s really only going to be useful if you build around having a lot of fear sources. If you don’t, you’re only going to have one skill that fears so the minor trait is underwhelming.

A dragonhunter that doesn’t use the bow is only hindering himself by not taking a traitline better suited to his build, IMO. It has no synergy with the base class.

Basically, people finally realized that warrior makes for a better guardian than guardian does.

Ezeriel.9574:

For the longest time every game has a dragoon/dragon slayer heavy armor class, so I’m just fine with the name….

…more important is the “I win button” a.k.a. traps that you can use on thieves.

FINALLY there is a thief counter-class!

Traps are not going to make guardian any more of a counter to thief than it already is.

Obtena.7952:

There is no number of people with the same opinion where it magically becomes fact. It might be widely unpopular but even response on the forum is not a good measure of that. Nike’s got it right on. There is more to changing the name than people not liking it.

This isn’t a matter of fact. It’s a matter of opinion, and clearly JP’s attempt at a justification was not nearly enough to sway the masses. Despite what you might be thinking, your attempts at trying to beat us over the head with it is not helping your cause.

Solori.6025:

But the cheese is still there.

It’s just not a cheese factory.

People for some reason saw beta test and thought " Oh look we get to preview the entire expansion for a day"

No one even gave a hint as to the duration, just the test.
If you farmed for hours to get into the beta, congrats.
You decided to spend 40+ hours of your life to help test something for free.

It’s no one else’s fault but yours you decided to waste that time, and its also your fault you assumed testing durations and dates.

Instead of trying to mask the thread as a " It’s your fault I farmed for a 6 hour test"
Why not instead place the blame on the person that’s ACTUALLY responsible?

Lastly,
Some people farmed for days, and didn’t get a portal
Some people wont be able to make the test at all and
Some people didn’t luck out and get the email either.

Why not be thankful you get to actually have a small window to see what others are denied because of your heaven sent good luck?

dsslive.8473:

But the cheese wasn’t taken away. Somewhere along the way the mouse thought there would be a whole platter of cheese instead of the small block, the same size block (well actually a little bit bigger) that was there the previous times the mouse ran through the maze.

I’m sure a bigger beta would have been awesome, but you can’t fault someone for your own assumptions. It’s not the people who put the mouse in the maze their fault that somewhere along the road that little mouse expected a platter instead of the small block of cheese it will get.

Both of you missed the point entirely. It’s not about the cheese, it’s about the fact that when you make a habit of something that people become accustomed to, and then suddenly break that habit, everything comes to a screeching halt and people are left wondering why they weren’t given fair warning that change was coming.

The previous event was referred to as a “stress test”. This one was referred to as a “beta”. The last time we had a “beta” was pre-release, and those lasted for entire weekends. Yes, people chose to farm for portals, but they have every right to be upset that they dedicated their time to a lost cause because they were purposefully left in the dark.

Solori.6025:

This is volunteer work, and all you have to do is log on and go through the zone.
No one is forcing you to test, and no one forced anyone to farm.

You farmed because you wanted to

If you train a mouse to navigate a maze for the cheese at the end, and then take away the cheese, the mouse will still run the maze under the assumption that the reward is there. Technically, the mouse is choosing to participate, but it’s going to be very disappointed when it finds out that there is no cheese at the end.

This is nothing new from Anet. It’s essentially their entire marketing strategy: trickle out a tiny bit of information on something to the players, and have them build up assumptions to get the hype train rolling, only to have everyone disappointed when the end result is nowhere near everyone’s sky high expectations.

I agree that it’s kittenty practice, but this is something that people really should have seen coming at this point.

Leo G.4501:

The other thing I’d personally choose to change is the traps. Simply call them marks. And you can even change the Runes of the Trapper to include marks if one must :P I just don’t think the traps fulfill any kind of big game hunter type of motif (they likely don’t work all that well on big targets anyway) and they seem far too magical and smite-y to be called traps.

But yeah, some changes are more likely than others.

Good premise, but it’d have to be something other than “marks”, because the thought of a staff necro gaining stealth and superspeed every 6 seconds does not appeal.

It wasn’t meant to simulate high level play? Does that mean that it’s safe to assume that traps will be even more underwhelming against players that actually know how to play the game?

Dirame.8521:

Black Box.9312:

The bow looks neat. I found it funny that the only trap he used in the warrior duel was the elite trap, and how incredibly ineffective it ended up being.

Overall, still not impressed. I’m really bummed that we won’t be able to just take the bow and leave the elite spec in the dust, because I have no interest in the traps or traits.

Ineffective? He used it at several good moments that saved him from getting pummeled. Don’t let your judgement be clouded by the rest of the video being unimpressive.

I know we all wanted to see something that we couldn’t possibly come up with but I think that’s really up to us find out when the expansion launches.

Every time he used it the warrior did exactly what you’d expect: He used a stunbreak and walked right out of it just fine. It’s just not going to outclass Renewed Focus, and none of the traps are going to outclass meditations. They just have no chance.

Nike.2631:

Black Box.9312:

Yay! I’ve always wanted to build for two different things that contradict each other!

Then maybe you should use the tools that are there for the purpose they are made for instead of trying to bend them to another job. It’s pretty hard to tighten/loosen bolts with a hammer…

Then they should probably give us a wrench instead of a hammer.

Hahahahahaha. Anet, and transparency, in the same sentence?

Nike.2631:

“I’m a Reader, and I get to tell you the Author you’re WRONG about your world setting and you have to listen because I bought your book and you want me to by your next book too!”

People write fantasy and sci-fi settings instead of contemporary fiction specifically to NOT have to put up with (much of) that sort of nonsense.

Criticism has nothing to do with right or wrong, and everything to do with whether something is done well or done poorly. There’s a very distinct difference between the two, and if you can’t identify that fine line, then you have no right to be making an argument.

The bow looks neat. I found it funny that the only trap he used in the warrior duel was the elite trap, and how incredibly ineffective it ended up being.

Overall, still not impressed. I’m really bummed that we won’t be able to just take the bow and leave the elite spec in the dust, because I have no interest in the traps or traits.