Guild Wars 2

MiniEquine.6014:

Black Box.9312:

skowcia.8257:

Black Box.9312:

Ridiculous.

Well for the rest of us that actually know how to play DPS guardian, we’d like a way to gain more movement speed without crippling our damage potential.

Guard would destroy everyone with a decent in combat mobility tho. While i hate being a slow turtle, lack of mobility is what keeps them in check actually.

No, what keeps Guardian in check is the fact that it has very little CC to back up the static AoE that makes up the vast majority of its damage. A +25% movement speed boost isn’t going to suddenly make them OP, as you can clearly see with those who already run Traveler runes.

Traveler runes at the expense of using more powerful, meta runes like strength or hoelbrak.

You really think that a more offensive runeset with extra movement speed is going to be the deciding factor that pushes Guardian over the top? Medi Guard has already had its damage nerfed, and it’s only a matter of time before they nerf Burn Guard too. Trust me, a little extra movement speed is not gonna kill off the current meta.

Voramoz.6790:

PS: you have to admit locking tomes of knowledge off for a while after launch for Revenants is a good idea lol.

skowcia.8257:

Black Box.9312:

Ridiculous.

Well for the rest of us that actually know how to play DPS guardian, we’d like a way to gain more movement speed without crippling our damage potential.

Guard would destroy everyone with a decent in combat mobility tho. While i hate being a slow turtle, lack of mobility is what keeps them in check actually.

No, what keeps Guardian in check is the fact that it has very little CC to back up the static AoE that makes up the vast majority of its damage. A +25% movement speed boost isn’t going to suddenly make them OP, as you can clearly see with those who already run Traveler runes.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Let’s say a condi guardian is being focused. As part of the synchronized attack, you as a Ranger pop Rapid Fire. While the arrows are still in the air, the guardian pops shelter and instantly gets to 25 might. You cannot stop these arrows from flying, and everyone in the coordinated attack is taking 552 damage per tick from burning which is not unreasonable with carrion and Amplified Wrath (no vuln, assuming starting value of 1500 condi). If we assume each teammate gets at least 5 stacks on them, that’s 2761 each at least, but more is certainly likely. Guardian runes would double the stacks, which would then hit the 5k+ mark. All this damage from a healing skill, which means not only are you not damaging him, but he’s dealing significant damage to your entire team, much of it potentially unavoidable between reflexes, input lag, and in-flight projectiles.

Not only would this make Shelter the obvious and overshadowing choice, but it would completely destroy coordinated group play when the situation arose. You know this would explode in popularity to have that kind of damage:healing power.

1. Shelter already has been the “obvious and overshadowing choice”, that’s absolutely nothing new. The fact that it’s still the go-to heal after the block proc nerfs is more of a sign that our other heal skills are just significantly worse than it is anything else.

2. Burn on block only affects the enemy directly attacking the guardian. It’s not an AoE that spreads to nearby opponents, and Shelter is not a reflect, so I don’t really understand how a single Ranger could kill his entire team just by shooting an entire Rapid Fire into it.

3. The only time a Guardian could reach 25 stacks of might with a 2 second block would be if he’s being outnumbered and focused, in which scenario there’s really no reason that he shouldn’t be dead before he gets a chance to make use of all that might. If he manages to kill all of you just because of that, then that’s not the Guardian being too strong, that’s your team being really bad. This is exactly how it was before, and it was never a major issue.

4. A Guardian could just as easily put up a Wall of Reflection while the Ranger is channeling Rapid Fire, which would do much more harm than burn on block. It’s simple counterplay. A smart Ranger would stop firing. A dumb one wouldn’t, and would suffer for being dumb.

5. Burn on block is not going to be the determining factor in burn guardian being too strong, as there are already numerous ways to stack burns proactively, which is much more of a threat than reactive burn application. Burn on block relies on opponents essentially hurting themselves, so anyone who gets punished enough for it to be an issue really has no one to blame but himself.

6. lol condi Guardian with Guardian runes, good one.

The point is that reactive countermeasures are only as much of a threat as the opponent makes it. Chances are really slim that you’ll lose to a Guardian exclusively because you mindlessly fired into a channeled block (which is also his heal skill, that you should maybe be able to guess that he’ll use when he’s low on health) as opposed to simply being outplayed. If that’s really the deciding factor in a fight, then you have no one to blame but yourself for the loss.

Well burning really needs to be toned down across the board if you ask me, but if someone isn’t paying attention and doesn’t cancel the attack in question, shouldn’t it be fair that they actually get punished for it?

I agree with all of the OP, except for the Whirling Wrath speed increase. The advantage Guardian GS has over Warrior GS is that our GS can inflict damage from multiple sources at once. Symbol + BB + Whirl = a LOT of damage. Our problem is just that it’s too difficult to keep people in place to take it all. So maybe instead of increasing the animation speed, just maybe allowing us to move at 100% movement speed while casting? I think that would go a long way, honestly.

Also one thing not mentioned that absolutely NEEDS to be changed is the third hit of the sword autoattack. There’s no reason at all for it to be a projectile. Please. It needs to be reworked.

^ Pretty much this. Heaven forbid that a defensive AH bunker with low damage potential is able to stack might for his team and get trickle heals for it! There’s just no valid excuse for giving us ICDs for traits that are virtually identical to warrior traits without ICDs. Warrior already gets that kind of sustain without even having to hit or block anything to begin with.

Ridiculous.

Well for the rest of us that actually know how to play DPS guardian, we’d like a way to gain more movement speed without crippling our damage potential.

Kidel.2057:

Black Box.9312:

And yes, since the Symbol of Swiftness change, you have to literally stop and stand in it to gain the full swiftness duration, which defeats the purpose of using it to begin with.

You don’t even need the full duration if you also use shouts.
If you need damage then just swap weapon. You don’t have energy lol.

The concept clearly is lost on you…

Kidel.2057:

Black Box.9312:

lol, Guardian staff and shouts. If you want to have to stop moving every 15 seconds and/or sacrifice at least half of your damage and sustain, then yeah sure, you can get 100% swiftness uptime.

You don’t need damage while exploring/moving.
And you don’t have to stop at all.

You’ll need damage when you get jumped by a Warrior or Ele that has more mobility than you could ever hope to ask for on a Guardian.

And yes, since the Symbol of Swiftness change, you have to literally stop and stand in it to gain the full swiftness duration, which defeats the purpose of using it to begin with.

lol, Guardian staff and shouts. If you want to have to stop moving every 15 seconds and/or sacrifice at least half of your damage and sustain, then yeah sure, you can get 100% swiftness uptime.

Kelly.5293:

Haven’t played in a while for the first time in 7 + years.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

It gets obstructed ALL. THE. TIME. For no reason, even if it’s point blank on even ground. Ranger’s Throw Torch doesn’t have this issue. Why does Guardian?

They behave differently mechanically. Ranger’s torch throw is a traditional, arcing projectile, whereas the guardian torch follows the ground until it reaches its target. Theoretically you’d think that this would lead to the guardian torch throw being less at risk of obstruction, but lol programming.

My favorite is when it gets obstructed by parallel, flat ground.

I think torch 4 is fine, but it could definitely use some fixing. Getting obstructed by literally nothing has gotten quite old.

Torch 5 is decent, but I wouldn’t be opposed to either upping the DPS a little or giving it some extra benefit, such as an extra condi removal or boon for the guardian. I’d be willing to take that even if it’d require an increased cooldown to compensate.

Played the “meta” build yesterday. It didn’t really feel any more powerful than it was pre-patch. Burning just destroys any low HP pool class that doesn’t take extra vitality, no matter how much condi cleanse you actually have.

Choo choo!

/sorrynotsorry

Revenant sword: The next iteration in weapons that have more blocks than Guardian shield.

Look guys, even Revenant offhand sword has more blocks than Guardian shield!

/cry

Keep in mind also that this will only be one of two healing skills you’ll have access to as a Revenant. You’ll do just fine.

I’m all for a bug fix to make this work properly.

I’m even more all for replacing it with a minor trait that actually feels significant.

Pros:

-Burning rework makes Guardians an effective condi threat now.

-Having 3 full traitlines makes team support much easier to access, even on offensive builds.

-New traits such as Wrath of Justice and Radiant Fire bring some interesting new flavors to builds.

-Feel My Wrath is amazing in PvE, and quite effective in many PvP situations. It actually makes picking an elite for Guardians require some degree of decision-making.

-Litany of Wrath is now a viable option for medi builds.

-Ground targeted consecrations becoming baseline is a nice QoL change, despite what some baddies might be saying to the contrary.

-Splitting stats from traitlines provides non-Zeal builds with more effective damage output.

Cons:

-On the flipside, however, splitting stats from traitlines also took away our vitality from Honor, leaving cleric bunker builds with a whopping 11k-12k HP.

-Signet of Courage is cool on paper, but needs adjusting (particularly with that awful cast time/animation) to work.

-We lost a lot of damage modifiers. Compared to the damage increases Mesmer and Thief got, for example, our burst potential has dwindled.

-Sword has lost a lot of its effectiveness. An added cooldown reduction to RHS does not make up for the lost damage modifier because its damage has always been in the autoattack.

-None of the requested QoL changes for sword (mobile Zealot’s Defense, block procs on ZD, non-projectile autoattack, etc.) were implemented to make up for lost damage.

-For the most part, Guardians can still be kited far too easily. We really needed some sort of cripple access within the base class, but didn’t get it.

-Virtue of Justice’s active is pretty useless now, unless you’re running Wrath of Justice or need the blind to secure a stomp.

-Zeal minors are still entirely symbol-oriented. Traits such as Fiery Wrath, Binding Jeopardy, Kindled Zeal, and Shattered Aegis would all make for much better candidates for minor traits because they’re much more universally applicable.

-Honor adept traits are terrible if you’re not running mace or planning to be a revive bot.

-ICDs on block procs were entirely unnecessary. Bumping Might of the Protector up to 2 stacks per block and Amplified Wrath to 2 seconds of burn per block doesn’t come anywhere close to making up for the nerf.

-Signets are still underwhelming, especially when you consider the fact that they traded out the more useful condition removal for the less useful light aura on use.

-Signet of Mercy still continues to exist, despite our best efforts.

-Spirit Weapons are still pretty underwhelming, although to be fair any buffs should come at the cost of them being less AI-reliant.

-Retaliation is still terribly ineffective post-nerf, especially considering how little uptime we actually get from it with any build not using GS. 3s retal on a 30s ICD still does not make for an effective trait.

-Radiant Retaliation is still essentially a throwaway trait, especially since it competes with Amplified Wrath, which is superior for condition builds 100% of the time.

-We are still very much pigeonholed into Valor for sustain from either AH or MF. The new Retributive Armor looks like a cool, interesting trait, but nobody is going to use it at the cost of not surviving long enough to deal more damage.

-Barring Revenant potentially (which my guess is they’ll get this with the Shiro traitline), once HoT releases we will be the only class without skill or trait access to +25% movement speed. This is especially a slap in the face when you consider how much more melee-dependent we are than most of the other classes.

-Shield is still the butt-end of Guardian-related jokes.

What is with these people coming in and trying to have the few good changes we’ve received taken away from us?

Nobody that knows what they’re doing will ever take Zealous Scepter over Fiery Wrath.

Please don’t take this away from the people who are actually thankful for it. Just learn to quick-cast like the rest of us and you will be fine.

Yeah, I run this with Virtues and hammer over Zeal with scepter/focus when I go roaming in WvW sometimes. It’s pretty funny how quickly you can take someone from 100% – 0%, but overall it’s a bit gimmicky IMO.

Sorry, but I left the building when they decided that warriors, who were given a high HP pool due to their weakness to conditions and sustained DPS, should receive both the (arguably) best personal condition cleansing trait and the highest HP/s healing skill in the game.

DiogoSilva.7089:

With the way the revenant works, weapon swapping would be annoying, unfun and clumsy, even if more balanced than the current state. There’s a much better solution:

Customisable utilities.

I disagree. I don’t think it’d be any more complicated than Necro’s access to two weapon sets and Death Shroud.

Saiyan.1704:

I would gladly trade my two shield skills for Engi’s Gear Shield’s 3s aoe block.
I would gladly trade my two shield skills for Ele’s single Whirling Wind skill.

10/10 would fap to guardian shield with both of those skills.

From what I’ve heard, they claimed to have fixed it, but didn’t actually fix it.

Guardian power builds got a bit of a nerf, sadly. We lost several damage modifiers and were hit with a few silly nerfs like the ICD on Might of the Protector. The only hefty damage boosting trait we DID receive (Symbolic Avenger) got cut in half before we even got a chance to test it, and even still is hardly effective outside of PvE.

Once Anet inevitably deems burning too powerful and reduces its damage, Guardian will probably lose its competitive edge. Maybe then they’ll finally see how much of a “good place” we’re in.

Ragnarox.9601:

Guardians are in good place now (somewhere in 10900hp line).

You really… Just… Went there.

/sigh

Ghotistyx.6942:

Sword+Shield brings a lot of projectile defense. They each need some QoL improvements I think, and then that build could really take off.

@BlackBox
Eles can’t swap weapons, so the versatility needed by the focus is of course going to be greater than the shield, where we have options to swap weapons. Comparing what an ele can do to guardian is one of the worst cross class comparisons, when those comparisons are already terrible. An ele, warrior, engi, Ranger, whatever being able to do something is completely different from a guardian being able to do the same thing.

Fine. Compare our shield to literally any other offhand in the game. I think you’ll be hard-pressed to find something that is less useful at least situationally.

-Reduce channeling time or increase damage slightly.
-Give it self-condi cleanse (even if it’s just a single cleanse at the beginning/end of the channel).
-Up cooldown to compensate for improved functionality if necessary.

I’d much rather have a skill worth using on a high cooldown instead of a low cooldown skill that I don’t use at all.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Black Box.9312:

An ele with an offhand focus can do everything you just mentioned with the shield, all while sacrificing much less damage and utility for their own build. I would take that over a guardian with a shield 100% of the time.

I’m sure once guardians get attunements and only have 2 possible offhand options, our shield will be just as good as ele focus

That’s a terrible excuse. If anything, the fact that our shield only has 2 skills instead of 8 should reinforce the idea of those 2 skills being stronger than the ele’s offhand skills.

Ars Valde.8693:

Black Box.9312:

Ars Valde.8693:

Arken.3725:

Black Box.9312:

10% is pathetic for a grandmaster major trait. It needs to be at least 15%.

Still wouldn’t touch it at 15%(needs to be 20). Hell, even if this was 20% I probably wouldn’t use it due to how difficult it is to make a symbol build in spvp(You’d need Zeal, honor, valor).

Symbols aren’t something you build around, they’re a tool available to weapons with them. Shouts and Meditations are a line and build because of their universality, symbols will never be something more than an area control tool and damage source like any other ability weapons have.

Especially in a game heavily about mobility. You can use them for area control and punishment for fighting in tight spaces, but attempting to center a build around them rather than accepting them as a unique additional mechanic guardians have is, I feel, the wrong way to approach them.

Symbols are definitely a significant part of the guardian’s repertoire. Of the 6 mainhand/two handed weapons we have, 4 have a symbol and 1 more has (arguably) a skill that really should be a symbol. The bow, which will be introduced with HoT, will also have a symbol.

And from a broader point of view, nearly everything guardian currently has is focused around area denial in some form. Consecrations, wards, and symbols all make for excellent area denial, but the problem is and has always been that we have very little at our disposal to KEEP enemies in place to take our damage. Area denial isn’t very effective outside of conquest PvP where there isn’t a particular area to defend.

So.. just WvW where guardians shine in a variety of other ways? There are 2 game modes where symbols rank from amazing to situationally powerful, and one game mode hyper dominated by massive mobility where guardians are not the only ones suffering for area control abilities are STILL have plenty of mobility associated with their skills. Like. Of the things to whine about for guardians I’d think Spirit Weapons and Shield would get far more attention than an actually good trait for symbols.

Spirit weapons and shield do get negative attention, as they deserve to. But that doesn’t mean that we should neglect other issues the class faces. Symbols work in conquest because the objective is about as one-dimensional as it gets: stand on a point longer than your enemy can. Symbols work in PvE because the mob AI isn’t smart enough to realize that they’re taking AoE damage. Neither one of those constitute as valid excuses for us not having the proper tools to utilize our abilities to their full potential.

I challenge you to make a symbol build and test it out in Stronghold this weekend. Good luck not getting kited to death.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Black Box.9312:

That’s half of the problem. Lowering shield cooldowns does nothing to solve the issue of focus just being flat out superior for both damage and support roles. For a lot of people, this is a bit depressing, because the shield is kind of a trademark symbol of the Guardian as a class.

Shield 5 heals and knocks back, so it’s understandable if it doesn’t do damage. Shield 4 gives aoe Prot, so it’s also understandable if it isn’t a high burst skill. Obviously focus and certainly torch are going to deal higher damage. However, neither torch nor focus provide cc, and only traited focus gives prot, at a much lower uptime. Neither focus nor torch will provide ally projectile defense. I’ve saved myself and allies from killshots and rapid fires back when it was 40s untraited. Now I can do that twice as often. Untraited #4 had 16.6% uptime in pvw. Now it can have around 30% without boon duration. With Mace, boon duration, and traited HtL, you can have a great uptime on prot and regen. Paired with sword you can have frequent projectile defense, and combined with scepter you can midline and bring support.

An ele with an offhand focus can do everything you just mentioned with the shield, all while sacrificing much less damage and utility for their own build. I would take that over a guardian with a shield 100% of the time.

Ars Valde.8693:

Arken.3725:

Black Box.9312:

10% is pathetic for a grandmaster major trait. It needs to be at least 15%.

Still wouldn’t touch it at 15%(needs to be 20). Hell, even if this was 20% I probably wouldn’t use it due to how difficult it is to make a symbol build in spvp(You’d need Zeal, honor, valor).

Symbols aren’t something you build around, they’re a tool available to weapons with them. Shouts and Meditations are a line and build because of their universality, symbols will never be something more than an area control tool and damage source like any other ability weapons have.

Especially in a game heavily about mobility. You can use them for area control and punishment for fighting in tight spaces, but attempting to center a build around them rather than accepting them as a unique additional mechanic guardians have is, I feel, the wrong way to approach them.

Symbols are definitely a significant part of the guardian’s repertoire. Of the 6 mainhand/two handed weapons we have, 4 have a symbol and 1 more has (arguably) a skill that really should be a symbol. The bow, which will be introduced with HoT, will also have a symbol.

And from a broader point of view, nearly everything guardian currently has is focused around area denial in some form. Consecrations, wards, and symbols all make for excellent area denial, but the problem is and has always been that we have very little at our disposal to KEEP enemies in place to take our damage. Area denial isn’t very effective outside of conquest PvP where there isn’t a particular area to defend.

I think, if anything, OP’s point about Signet of Mercy needing to be replaced is very much valid. It is semi-arguably the most useless utility skill in the entire game, and we could definitely use the speed boost.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Guardian shield isn’t terrible. Shield 4 has 25-30% prot uptime and a 1.0 power coefficient on a 600u cone. If you want more damage, add more power. If you still want more damage, use a weapon built for damage instead of support.

Shield 5 gives a control effect, aoe projectile defense, and possibly heals on a reasonable cooldown. Admittedly it has some bugs and QoL changes to work through, but the design itself is solid.

I mean, it’s not like people are complaining that GS doesn’t give enough Prot, instead they switch to a weapon or set up that gives them what they need.

That’s half of the problem. Lowering shield cooldowns does nothing to solve the issue of focus just being flat out superior for both damage and support roles. For a lot of people, this is a bit depressing, because the shield is kind of a trademark symbol of the Guardian as a class.

Kotte.2460:

focus is for selfy gaurds. shields are good if you kno how to use them. which i find none of you all do.

Focus provides blinds, group regen, group condi clear, and a blast finisher. None of which are provided by shield.

A good player can use a kittenty weapon and still play effectively. That doesn’t suddenly make it any less of a kittenty weapon though.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Black Box.9312:

Mightybird.6034:

what if we do a Captain America thing with guardian and make the shield offensive? like a thrown kind of thing? damage/knockback/daze/retal/might/??/etc

I’ve thought about something like this. It could have a bouncing effect, giving protection to affected allies and maybe inflicting weakness/vulnerability/daze on enemies. They’d have to give it some decent damage though (more than the current SoJ).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Shield

Yes, I am aware of this. The idea is to make guardian shield less terrible (i.e. more on par with engi shield), and since using an existing animation requires less resources, it would only make sense to implement something similar.

10% is pathetic for a grandmaster major trait. It needs to be at least 15%.

The fact that focus received the same 20% base cooldown reduction makes the shield just as pointless as it was before.

““Hold the Line!”: Fixed an issue that prevented this shout from playing its voice-over audio.”

And here I was so convinced that it was never going to happen.

Mightybird.6034:

what if we do a Captain America thing with guardian and make the shield offensive? like a thrown kind of thing? damage/knockback/daze/retal/might/??/etc

I’ve thought about something like this. It could have a bouncing effect, giving protection to affected allies and maybe inflicting weakness/vulnerability/daze on enemies. They’d have to give it some decent damage though (more than the current SoJ).

Critical Retribution – Retaliation can now critically hit enemies that attack you, based on your Precision and Ferocity. You have a (33%) chance on critical hit to gain Retaliation for 5 seconds (15s ICD).

If you ask me, I think that Fiery Wrath, Kindled Zeal, and Shattered Aegis would all make for better minor traits that would have more universal application than forcing symbol traits into minor slots. Fiery Wrath is already taken in pretty much every build that goes Zeal, so they might as well put it in the minor slot so that we can have more build diversity.

Jerus.4350:

Bean Muncher.5197:

It’s acceptable that the bugged trait got removed. It’s not acceptable, however, to have no useful GM trait in zeal because of this.

They’d better buff the damage boost to 20% in its fixed form. And within a week, for that matter.

You’re joking right? 10% is fine, pretty great honestly, and we’ll get it when we get it, it’s not like guard is in a bad spot without it.

10% is pretty lackluster for a GM trait, especially one that relies on enemies standing in a given area without having proper CC to keep them there.

As a gay man, I respect your right to an opinion, but I also say good riddance.

Now if only we could just get a little bit more male LGBT representation…