Guild Wars 2

rajule.8054:

Vizardlorde.8243:

google.3709:

Ragnarox.9601:

Vizardlorde.8243:

Or you know the thief could dodge through the 4 traps once and kill the guardian. If the thief is carrying a sword he can even ignore DM with shadow return lol. The trick might work once in a match but after they know you are not a meditation guardian you are as good as dead if you are running zerker.

Yea why didnt they do pvp vs a thief and not the hambow warrior without skill ? Because they know DH sucks vs other classes.

Guess you failed to see all the big numbers. are you upset because anet is gonna force you to land them and you know, play the game?

DragonHunter is actually gonna be really strong both 1v1 and team fights.

hambow because that’s hugh’s main.

have you ever played a staff necro? the #1 rule is never clump your traps together and #2 avoid pre-casting any marks except blood (short cd). Know why? because if you clump all marks/traps in 1 spot 1 dodge triggers them all at once for the grand to tal of 0 damage, 0 conditions. And if you pre- cast marks instead of dropping them on you enemy skilled players have an easier time avoiding them.

One thing that’s different though is enemies can see those marks beforehand. with traps they’re not gonna know where they are unless they see you cast it.

Marks can be laid under your enemy’s feet for an instant proc. Traps will be losing their ground targeting and will have an activation time.

I only caught the end of the stream with the duel against the warrior, but I was not at all impressed by the elite trap. One stunbreak and the guy was in the clear, and suddenly your elite skill is wasted.

dietzero.3514:

Why are people arguing with Obtena?

I gave up on the guy. He’s clearly only interested in inciting drama at this point.

RabbitUp.8294:

Black Box.9312:

RabbitUp.8294:

“Dragon Hunter” name feedback

Get off your high horse, I was only saying that my argument against the name is unrelated to the traps.

So, why would you respond to me who was talking with another poster about traps? If you felt the need to make your opinion known without adding anything to the conversation, I’m not the one ridding a high horse.

Because it was meant to point out the fact that that argument isn’t relevant to everyone. There are plenty of reasons to not like the name that have nothing to do with the traps.

KrisHQ.4719:

How about no one has it? Or just grant all classes 25% increased movement speed permanently. I do agree that it does not make sense for guardians to not have it, but imo it does not even make sense for any class to have it in the first place. Makes swiftness much less impactful, a boon that is already spammable to ridiculous extends.

I do kind of have to agree with this, honestly. +25% movement speed as a passive bonus makes swiftness feel worthless, which sucks. Boons are meant to be empowering, and getting swiftness instead of 3 stacks of might, or fury, or protection, or retaliation just feels like getting the short end of the stick.

RabbitUp.8294:

“Dragon Hunter” name feedback

Get off your high horse, I was only saying that my argument against the name is unrelated to the traps.

RabbitUp.8294:

Leo G.4501:

As for the shouts, considering they tend to affect foes, it falls in line with the Necromancer’s motif."

If this is a convincing argument for you, then Dragonhunter’s traps all have pretty blue lights and chains made out of light, so they fit the Guardian perfectly.

My issue with the traps isn’t that they don’t fit the theme. My issue is that traps in general are based on terrible mechanics and I would rather take literally any other utility set.

Nike.2631:

Black Box.9312:

I agree, OP. The DH traitline has almost zero synergy with the current guardian traits and skills. It feels like it’s catered to longbow campers and does not add anything to existing builds.

Almost like its a separate profession with its own icon and everything!

Yay! I’ve always wanted to build for two different things that contradict each other!

Farzo.8410:

The story how the dragonhunter came to be is a long one with a lot of anger, sadness and a will of justice.

I lol’d.

Arken.3725:

In fact, most people probably didn’t even realize Guardian had a cripple all along (Tome of Wrath #2). I still think theme’s are important to distinguish between professions. However, it shouldn’t severely limit them in areas that make no sense(Primarily melee profession having terrible mobility).

There is also a cripple on the Guardian underwater downed state autoattack. Because, y’know, it’s important to not let an enemy run away for all of the times you’ll ever be downed underwater.

Trei.5203:

Black Box.9312:

The idea is that things such as the increased damage from > 600 range trait and the high emphasis on the bow with other traits actually punishes you for fighting from close range with this spec, so why is it that the very same spec offers utilities that work exclusively from close range? These traps are certainly not looking to be any more powerful than the Chronomancer wells, and those are instant cast with ground targeting that can be used anywhere from melee range to up to 1200(?) units away.

Once again, who mandated that traps can be only be triggered at close range to you?
Set it, move away, troll your target into it as and when he tries to close in on you. And he WILL ultimately succeed in getting close. But he won’t see that trap until he steps on it.
Here’s the best part – You don’t have to be near it when that happens…

Wells, traps… Different usage, different tools, for different situations.

If someone sees you lay a trap from a distance, they’re going to avoid it. Unless they’re dumb.

Not everyone is that dumb.

I agree, OP. The DH traitline has almost zero synergy with the current guardian traits and skills. It feels like it’s catered to longbow campers and does not add anything to existing builds.

The bow is cool. The virtues are cool, but much less supportive.

The traps, traits, and the name are all garbage, which makes me unsure if I really care to try the spec.

Trei.5203:

Genesis.8572:

Black Box.9312:

4. Traps are completely inferior to wells. Traps are not ground targeted and will require an activation time. Beyond THAT, they are only triggered when an enemy runs over them. Wells are ground targeted and activate instantly upon casting. That’s better than traps in every single way.

And traps are set at your feet, but the playstyle of the DH longbow is about keeping your distance from your foes so they never reach the traps anyway.

I beg to differ.
That’s not a playstyle I see DH as being about, nor for any other ranged spec at that.

For there to be any semblance of balance in an MMO, the first noticeable thing to experienced player is that melee classes should and will ALWAYS be able to close the gap and reach their ranged player opponents somehow.

I fully expect any warrior to be able to get into my face one way or another, regardless of how well I might be playing. Thus I see no conflict between traps and ranged weapons; not especially when your traps can infact lock down your prey while you disengage back and open the distance yet again for another round.

Traps are meant to be prepared in advance whenever situations allow.
You are meant to lure your opponents into them.
Not to mention the fact that they don’t even have to reach melee range of you to trip a trap, if you are good with positioning.

Caveat of course, is the traps need to be strong and pack significance enough to be worth setting.
I will choose a strong trap with a long arming time over an instant laid packet of weaksauce anytime.

The idea is that things such as the increased damage from > 600 range trait and the high emphasis on the bow with other traits actually punishes you for fighting from close range with this spec, so why is it that the very same spec offers utilities that work exclusively from close range? These traps are certainly not looking to be any more powerful than the Chronomancer wells, and those are instant cast with ground targeting that can be used anywhere from melee range to up to 1200(?) units away.

Arken.3725:

The whole concept of professional themes is pretty much gone with the introduction of cripple being afforded to the guardian to which it was never to be given. I personally think that’s fine. Sorry, responding from phone so excuse grammar.

Pretty much this. For every time we’ve been shafted from the balance front in the name of preserving the “theme”, the new Dragonhunter spec is more of a slap in the face than anything else. It can’t really be claimed as a valid excuse anymore.

Once again, seeing complaints about the name has no correlation with how satisfied people are with the actual spec. I, for one, despise traps and would rather take literally any other existing utility skillset, and I’ve SAID so numerous times, but that is simply much less likely to be changed as opposed to something that is independent of the actual balancing/mechanics.

Obtena.7952:

And that’s a problem with people imposing their expectations on how they want the game, specifically Guardians, to be conceptualized and developed when it’s not their game to do so.

People need to understand how this dev group appears to be one that tries new things. They throw out the rulebook. I’m sure they don’t care that players think the elite spec should be close to the traditional Paladin class. I’m even more certain it’s probably the farthest thing they would want for an elite spec to be on Guardians.

It makes no sense to some people but the explanations I’ve seen from Anet and players are plausible. People don’t get that it’s enough.

Guardian players have been shafted so many times because of Anet wanting to keep the “theme” of the class. Now, they’re suddenly flipping that theme on its head because LOL LET’S MAKE THEM RANGERS and people aren’t supposed to have the right to disagree with that?

You might buy JP’s explanation, but the rest of us don’t, and we have every right to vocalize that.

Hunter.4783:

Ok people, i see A LOT of HYPOCRISY over these boards as of late:

People wanted ranged options: They got it
People complained they didn’t have enough offensive options: DH is about as offensive as it gets.
Peopled (me included) QQed day and night about virtues being the most boring kitten of class mechanics out there, and when Anet changes them into a more active mechanic, people complain their precious 1k health on a 60sec cooldown is replaced by a leap with a 3sec immob if traited….are you people kidding me?

People are complaining about traps yet praising wells which are EXACTLY THE SAME THING, and inferior from what i saw.

I guess no one imagined charging headlong into a zerg and placing 2 traps in there. Its sure to bring enough chaos to make it count. Again, guardians STILL RETAIN their tankiness, just because we got the bow, does not make us any squishier

1. People aren’t complaining about the bow. It’s probably the one legitimately good thing we’re getting.

2. Medi guard is meta right now, and it’s 100% offensive. That aside, people were looking for an alternative to meditations for offensive builds and shouts for defensive builds. With traps, we get neither because trap builds will have no sustain, no condi clear, and no mobility.

3. Yes, people wanted active virtues, but they didn’t want to see our current virtues NERFED in the process. Nobody is going to use VoR for the heal as a DH because it has 1/5 the effective radius.

4. Traps are completely inferior to wells. Traps are not ground targeted and will require an activation time. Beyond THAT, they are only triggered when an enemy runs over them. Wells are ground targeted and activate instantly upon casting. That’s better than traps in every single way.

Saiyan.1704:

Nike.2631:

Arrk.4102:

The Reaper looks like a Necromancer that goes in Melee range, and just that.

That would be very, very different for any spec of Necromancer I’ve had good results with – and I say that with one of my 80s a dedicated well-o-mancer that darts in and out to drop wells… I still don’t stick around to duke it out…

The point is, those classes look and sound like their class type. A Guardian with bow and traps do not. The only thing that meshes things together is the word “Hunter”. If anything, Dragon is the part that should get removed.

The Ranger will be in the same position as Guardians, except they’re going to get a pass because of the name Druid. It’s not high concept but that doesn’t matter, right?

People are fine with a Rangers getting staff and support abilities as if they’re Guardian but they’re so quick to judge Guardian’s bow and traps. It really isn’t fair.

If the Druid ends up being a Guardian clone, then yes, I’ll call that out as well. I probably won’t be as upset because Guardian is my main and Ranger is not, but I’m not going to suddenly contradict my own opinion.

Hunter.4783:

BadSanta.6527:

after looking at the ready up of both reaper and the dh i must say dh is horrible traps is a bad bad bad idea if you compere it to reaper; reaper actully look like necro evolve in ower case it seems just like alame copey of unsecusfull skills of ranger…
what do you guys think about dragon hunter over all and compere to the spec that known so far

You do realize the DH fixes over 90% of the flaws the current guard as in sPVP and WvW?
You do realize Medibow will kitten over every single ranger, mesmer and staff ele out there?

Traps are fine IMO:
- They will work wonders in WvW where they were initially designed for
- They also be effective at scaring squishies off points in sPVP, no one wants to sit with in a 10 sec reveal and 25 vuln debuff

You are NOT required, or even supposed to carry 3 traps with you.

As far as PVE is concerned, the guard is top 2 right now after the proposed trait and skill changes. In fact the baseline trait changes are all pretty much aimed at PVE for the most part. If anything im glad guards are not NERFED in PVE like eles were. PVE has never been where guards lacked, and Anet did amazing by making DH sPVP/WvW specific in order to address the guard flaws.

Every single complaint in these boards is aimed at our lack of PVE buffs compared to mesmer and necro. Yet people forget that both mesmer and necro are currently trash tier in PVE and its where they got the most buffs.

Chronomancer sounds amazing on paper but in sPVP and its chaotic nature don’t expect it to lay 2x moas and what not while people stand still and let them do it.
Reaper is a PVE death machine but slow as kitten, kitable and downright weak in PVP. It will get ganked and zerged down in any serious sPVP scenariors, so don’t expect things to change much

You speak as if you’ve seen the future. Mind giving me the winning lottery number?

Genesis.8572:

Black Box.9312:

The title isn’t directly within the context of the game’s story. I dunno about those two enemies, though. Where do you fight them?

The “Dead Parents” human personal story.

Despite its use by the White Mantle, the name ‘Inquisitor’ still strikes me as a generic enough specialization name.

Ah okay. Not sure if I ever did that one. I do kind of prefer Seeker, anyway.

Arrk.4102:

Black Box.9312:

Arrk.4102:

Black Box.9312:

I’d say either Inquisitor or Seeker gets my vote. As nice as Warden sounds on paper, it also is already being used in GW2 context as the Sylvari military faction.

We also have Inquisitor as a White Mantle title, and The Reaper as a player title, so they are not looking at the context.

Those two are not directly tied to GW2 in-game (yet, at least).

How so? You fight Inquisitor Torbon and Veteran Inquisitor Mirella in game.
Reaper is the title a PvP players can get for obtaining 873,500 rank points in sPvP.

The title isn’t directly within the context of the game’s story. I dunno about those two enemies, though. Where do you fight them?

Saiyan.1704:

Arken.3725:

The burst was significant but I mainly used it to keep up with my enemy for the brief moment. Slow doesn’t affect movement speed plus it’s competing with a superior supportive trait(Absolute resolution).

Wait, Slow doesn’t effect movement speed? Why would anyone think this is better than Glacial Heart that not only did 900+ damage but also Slowed people?

Slow is just the opposite of quickness. It increases your cast times as opposed to decreasing them, but has no effect on your movement speed.

Arrk.4102:

Black Box.9312:

I’d say either Inquisitor or Seeker gets my vote. As nice as Warden sounds on paper, it also is already being used in GW2 context as the Sylvari military faction.

We also have Inquisitor as a White Mantle title, and The Reaper as a player title, so they are not looking at the context.

Those two are not directly tied to GW2 in-game (yet, at least).

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh… Sounds less silly than Dragonhunter, I guess, but I still don’t really much care for it.

I’d say either Inquisitor or Seeker gets my vote. As nice as Warden sounds on paper, it also is already being used in GW2 context as the Sylvari military faction.

Wings of Resolve is actually less effective as an allied heal than the default virtue, so I see this as something hardly worth complaining about.

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

It also doesn’t fail the name association test I mentioned (either in here or the other thread), unlike the Dragonhunter.

The only reason it doesn’t fail your irrelevant name test is that it’s so vague that it could literally mean anything people thinks it should mean.

The name test is hardly irrelevant, because a name is literally there to serve as a short description of what it is referencing. The Reaper works because none of the classes really carry any sort of farming theme, so naturally the next closest association is that of the Grim Reaper, which is a perfect match for the necro.

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

Obtena.7952:

Arnath.2319:

Obtena.7952:

Arnath.2319:

Not a single person as been able to provide a logical explanation for the terrible Dragon Hunter theme.

… other than Anet. That’s what matters.

No they haven’t given a LOGICAL explanation.

No one has shown their explanation isn’t logical at all. Simply dismissing their explanation does not make it illogical. Besides, who determines it’s logical? It’s part of a made up story that they make up. It can be whatever they want. Obviously they think it fits their story.

It’s illogical because they can’t even keep a consistent theme with itself, let alone with the rest of the base class. Is it a “high concept” witch hunter-type religious fanatic, or is it a “big game hunter” that engages targets from afar and baits them into traps? Is it a backline support, or is it an offensive skirmisher meant to chase the enemy down?

The fallacies are there. Choosing to ignore them under the umbrella of “because Anet says so” doesn’t make them go away.

We’ve already addressed this. Necros have the same thing. In fact, Anet acknowledge it was their approach to the Necor elite spec. There is no reason to think the Guardian concept can’t cross over multiple themes … except in the minds of people grasping for justification that somehow it’s bad to do so.

How is the Reaper inconsistent with itself? It’s a heavy hitting melee spec with a pseudo-horror theme that pulls you in and chills you to prevent you from getting away. There are no conflicting elements involved, unlike the ones I stated above regarding the Dragonhunter.

It also doesn’t fail the name association test I mentioned (either in here or the other thread), unlike the Dragonhunter.

Obtena.7952:

Arnath.2319:

Obtena.7952:

Arnath.2319:

Not a single person as been able to provide a logical explanation for the terrible Dragon Hunter theme.

… other than Anet. That’s what matters.

No they haven’t given a LOGICAL explanation.

No one has shown their explanation isn’t logical at all. Simply dismissing their explanation does not make it illogical. Besides, who determines it’s logical? It’s part of a made up story that they make up. It can be whatever they want. Obviously they think it fits their story.

It’s illogical because they can’t even keep a consistent theme with itself, let alone with the rest of the base class. Is it a “high concept” witch hunter-type religious fanatic, or is it a “big game hunter” that engages targets from afar and baits them into traps? Is it a backline support, or is it an offensive skirmisher meant to chase the enemy down?

The fallacies are there. Choosing to ignore them under the umbrella of “because Anet says so” doesn’t make them go away.

Valmir.4590:

@Black Box
As I have said, the name is bad, but the evolution of the Guardian toward it is plausible, and that’s why most of the people arguing against the name fail to provide counter-argument against it which would have some values. They dislike the name and then reject totally the specialization, going out of their way to pretend that this evolution of the Guardian doesn’t make sense, using fallacies and circular logic.

In doing so, they are weakening their point, and I while I dislike the English name, I can’t simply let it slip. The one and only thing which has to change is the name, and it can retain a draconic-related theme, because in Tyria, the greatest evil that we know of right now are the Elder Dragons and their minions.

Your argument is literally “anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and they don’t have any good reason for it”. It’s a very unhealthy way to carry a debate. There have been plenty of good points by people from both sides, so please don’t try to insult people with an opposing view.

Obtena.7952:

Because Anet decides they may not do it. It’s THAT simple.

You don’t seem to understand that the concepts are determined by Anet.

Of course Anet gets the final say on how a concept is made. But that has no effect on our right to call their ideas stupid if we think so.

MiniEquine.6014:

Black Box.9312:

Oh please. There are currently traits that are centered around specific weapons, but not entire traitlines. Reaper, for example, is heavily focused on using chill to your advantage. A necro has ample access to chill without having to use GS. You’re not pigeonholed into the specific weapon.

We have no cripple outside of the bow autoattack and this knockback trait, which, hey, look at that, we don’t have significant access to knockbacks other than the new bow trait. So yeah, you can still trait for other weapons too, but at the end of the day you’re still essentially traiting for two different builds rather than one cohesive, more powerful one.

Black, I think you’re a little blinded by your dislike for the spec. Here’s an example from dulfy where you can take the Dragonhunter traitline and there are literally no traits, including minor traits, that depend on traps, cripple, or the longbow

http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgIBqAKoBuw~

You’re absolutely wrong about being “pigeon-holed” into certain playstyles with this spec. The only difference is that you can use the longbow and traps now, but you don’t have to. Some of the non-LB/trap traits are actually pretty good.

Hahahahahahahaha. Good luck lasting 10 seconds in a PvP fight without Valor. You’d be better off sacrificing the extra damage from Zeal or Radiance for it. But then again, why sacrifice those when you can just have all three and not worry about the dumb DH traits?

Spin Echo.8263:

Those of you putting Reaper above Dragonhunter: let’s compare the current wiki entries for the new longbow skills to the new greatsword skills:

LB#1: 574 damage, 3/4 sec cast
GS#1: 646 damage, 3/4 sec cast (with chain that causes chill on third strike)

LB#2: 1641 damage, 3/4 sec cast. 4 sec CD
GS#2: 1520 damage, 1.25 sec cast, 8 sec CD (can be reduced to 0)

LB#3: 615 damage & 4 sec blind, 0.25 sec cast, 10 sec CD
GS#3: 684 damage & 10 sec vuln (x12), 1 sec cast, 10 sec CD

LB#4: 2050 damage, vigor, & burn over 4 pulses, 0.75 sec cast, 15 sec CD
GS#4: 548 damage & blind over 4 pulses, 0.25 sec cast, 20 sec CD

LB#5: 205+1641 damage, cripples, & barriers, 2.75 sec cast, 60 sec CD
GS#5: 760 damage, poison, & pull, 0.75 sec cast, 25 sec CD

I think #1-4 would be roughly tied if they were both melee weapons. But at range 1200, I think the balance easily tips to Guardians. LB#5 is the only questionable skill, given the long cast time and CD.

Not only are those numbers completely meaningless when you take into account potential stat differences, but a simple comparison between the two weapons only accounts for a fraction of what each spec gets. Reaper got a better profession mechanic revamp, better utility skills, and better traits. Meanwhile the longbow is just about the only good thing the Dragonhunter has going for it.

If “outside-the-box” elite specs are going to end up like the one random, ridiculous spec of the three revealed so far (you know which one I mean), then no thanks, I’d rather have the predictability.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Arrk.4102:

If the silent majority cared enough they would voice their opinion. They don’t and thus if the name was changed they would not be affected.

Ah yes, apathy is the reason things are the way they are.

Have you considered the replacement name could be worse for the silent majority? They would certainly be affected by a name change, regardless of if they vocalize.

But, like you insist, it’s just a name. Surely they wouldn’t give up playing the spec just because of a name they don’t like, right?

P.S.: I’m flattered that my name is prominent enough for you to take notice. But three people is not enough to take an argument up to 40+ pages.

Arnath.2319:

Softspoken.2410:

Would Permeating Wrath be something like Chilling Nova? Especially since they were discussing making it pulse the burn around your foe, instead of around the Guardian.

I hope they make this change however even if they did it’s in the wrong trait line, Dragon Hunter is going to b e our condi line then traits that improve our condi abilities that currently reside in Zeal and Radiance should be in Dragon Hunter.

And STILL even if those traits were in DH and they did make that change to Permeating Wrath i don’t think it would be enough to get condi guards viable.

Sorry, but calling DH our dedicated condi line is a joke at best. One trait that gives bleed from traps is not going to be the deciding factor in whether or not condi guardian will establish any prominence.

Valmir.4590:

Fashion Mage.3712:

Valmir.4590:

So, as you can see, the basis for the Dragonhunter is already here.

The traits you listed have virtually nothing to do with hunting, traps, or dragons, despite your best attempts at making it seem like they do.

They have everything to do with it, despite the best effort of the folks here. It just require to be open minded and not refusing any sort of proof that the theme of the Dragonhunter is well implemented in the mechanics and in touch with the Guardian, as if recognizing it meant that suddenly the name had to be good if ANet hasn’t failed at the theme, which it doesn’t have to, because it is bad, mainly because it doesn’t present the theme well.

If you have to keep an open mind and actively search for associations and meaning behind a name in order to figure it out, then you have to ask yourself: Is that name really a fitting description of what it’s meant to represent?

Another test is to take the names out of their given context. If you were to hear these names called out without knowing what they represented in-game, which class would be the first to come to mind? Reaper is naturally a fit for the Necro, with the concept of death and darkness meshing perfectly. Chronomancer might be a little bit more of a stretch, but in comparison to the other classes the Mesmer is the most likely to be manipulating time, because they already use magic that distorts space and reality.

I find it near impossible to believe that the first class to come to mind from the name “Dragonhunter” would be the Guardian.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

2. Dragonhunter – Incredible trait synergy with all core specializations.

You srs? Guardians have one weapon that is (semi)effective at > 600 range and they have zero access to cripples outside of this new spec.

How the hell does that constitute as “incredible trait synergy with all core specializations”?

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

Mar.4839:

Arrk.4102:

Mar.4839:

Actually I believe the main issue is that people are viewing Specializations as something that is supposed to be as the OP states “logical extension of the flavor and theme of the Guardian.”

That’s the biggest mistake I think everyone is making.

Elite Specializations are designed to be horizontal progression, not vertical. We’re taking a piece of our main profession and specializing further into that aspect.

Chronomancers -> Mesmers who decided to focus more on the time aspect of their profession (which admittedly was pretty sparse to begin with).

Reapers -> Necromancers who decided to focus more on being as powerful as Death itself.

Dragonhunters -> Guardians who decided to focus more on zealous justice.

These are all just one piece of each profession that is being extended, the 2nd Elite specializations for these professions will then delve into another facet of the base profession.

A future elite spec for each could be:

Mesmer -> Some kind of mage-thief that focuses more on its stealth aspects.

Necromancer -> A Demonologist-ish kind of summoner with more focus on minions.

Guardian -> Cleric-ish boon giver/supporter with more focus on tomes.

OP is clearly one of the many that think Elite specs are supposted to be vertical progression but they aren’t. They’re just another choice to play the profession in a different way, a more focused (specialized) role.

We can even use the Druid as an example. It is not the total encompassing progression of what a Ranger is, it is just an extension of the Nature Magic part of the Ranger.

Yes but those focus their whole theme on one thing. Guardians by themselves have nothing to do with hunting, dragons or hunting dragons.
Mesmers have time magic thus Chronomancer.
Rangers have nature magic thus Druid.
Guardians have 0 relation to hunting or dragons which is why it makes no sense.

As phys has pointed out, the playstyle of the DH is to switch back and forth between melee and range, heck they even show this on the Ready-Up with the build from Tirzah.

It’s not supposed to be staying at range like a Ranger with a longbow, that’s the entire point of introducing a new playstyle but having a different flavor to it.

Reapers become melee fighters like Warriors/Guardians but the Reaper’s playstyle is different enough from both as well.

Guardians have zeal and/or can be zealous. Thus some focus on that and turn into Dragonhunters.

Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.

If we’re supposed to use this spec to alternate between ranged and melee combat, then why is the new spec focused exclusively on traits meant for the longbow?

Actually, a DH 2,6,8 with a LB/Hammer build swapping between the two would be VERY good. So I guess my answer is that the new spec is not as focused on traits exclusively for LB as you think it might be.

Besides that, there are other trait lines that favour specific weapon categories that are already in existence, along with builds that swap weapons all the time that those trait lines are NOT optimized for.

So bottom line, you aren’t really saying anything that is exceptional here. We currently have builds that we can swap between ranged and melee where a trait line is focused on one weapon and not the other … and yet, this hasn’t been a problem until someone decides is useful to use as a point to decry the name of a elite spec … convenient.

Oh please. There are currently traits that are centered around specific weapons, but not entire traitlines. Reaper, for example, is heavily focused on using chill to your advantage. A necro has ample access to chill without having to use GS. You’re not pigeonholed into the specific weapon.

We have no cripple outside of the bow autoattack and this knockback trait, which, hey, look at that, we don’t have significant access to knockbacks other than the new bow trait. So yeah, you can still trait for other weapons too, but at the end of the day you’re still essentially traiting for two different builds rather than one cohesive, more powerful one.

phys.7689:

Genesis.8572:

Nike.2631:

Unsurprisingly since I want to play an Archer/Trapper WITHOUT A BRAINDEAD PET leeching 30% of my DPS and a set of f1-f3 actions that don’t lag out for bad AI, I’m pretty excited.

So basically you are excited that you can play the guardian as if it were the ranger you wanted? Do you not see how that is bad for both guardians and rangers?

you realize the basic plan for this set of specializations seems to be subclasses, right? most classes will not get something that is similar to how the old class plays, thats the opposite of the point.
reaper is just as far from necromancer, if not farther than dragon hunter is from guardian.
just like you can say DH is a wanna be ranger, they can say reaper is a wanna be warrior. These specs are all supposed to be different, but use existing weapons/skill types, they will all be similar in some respects to something else. They are basically sub proffesions. when they get to specializations with new weapons, perhaps you will see something that is more new, till then, expect these specializations to take something from a class, but use it in a style/playstyle that fits the theme of the class.

No. No. No. Specializations should give us ways to play classes that are unavailable on any other class. That’s the point; to bring new elements to the game to give it a breath of fresh air.

Going with the subclass route is 100% not the answer. It’d have been one thing if they had a subclass mechanic at launch like they did with GW1, but it’s too late for that now. People that want to play a trap ranger should play a trap ranger. There’s no reason to turn guardians into trap rangers when instead we could give guardians an entirely unique new playstyle that isn’t anything we already have in the game.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Fashion Mage.3712:

^
The mere fact that this name (and specialization) needs so much justification shows how bad it is.

Just because some vocal people make a stink about something, doesn’t mean its actually a problem. Just because your group is loudest doesn’t make it correct.

I’d like to think that 10 pages here and 30 pages in the HoT subforum indicates that it’s a problem. If it were your standard “vocal minority” there wouldn’t be nearly this much backlash.

phys.7689:

because you spec for the other weapons in the existing lines. Few trailines benefit more than one weapon type.
And traps are not weak for back and forth combat with ranged attacks, if the payoff is right.
take a look at these traps
1 second casting time for fragments of fate, 1.4k dps compared with .760 dps if you were AAing instead. bonus, 5 aegis in the field to use when you wish.
same damage on the cross the line trap, making it worthwhile to cast
better damage than true shot per second on the blade skill.

its actually worth it to teleport right into the enemy, control/cripple them, and make them suffer the penalty with the traps, you are gaining DPS if you do it properly.
Guardian can afford to be in melee for the short times to place these traps.

How you place them and what skills you use with them maximizes your effectiveness.
the warding trap can keep your enemies away, or keep them trapped in an area, your bow 5 can also lock them in place so they have to feel the full force of the traps.

its a playstyle where you have to put together your control, timing, and positioning to get the maximum benefit, which is honestly a really good execution of this style.
the traps are strategy/tactics.

i think im going to have to rename dragon hunter “the cerebral assassin”

That doesn’t change the fact that the DH has absolutely no synergy with our base traitlines. Why would I want to take extra damage to crippled enemies and extra damage from more than 600 range if neither of those are applicable to anything else in my loadout? Instead I could trait Zeal, and gain +10% damage to burning foes (which is a condition we actually have universal access to), and Radiance, and improve my burning uptime dramatically so that I’ll have a consistent damage multiplier that doesn’t punish me for using my skills and weapons to their best potential. These elite specs are supposed to enhance the class, and instead of getting an enhancement we’re getting a wannabe ranger that limits you for using anything outside of the elite spec.

I don’t think you quite understand how Smiter’s Boon works. You don’t just remove a condition on heal, it procs Smite Condition. You know, that AoE burst attack that will provide an additional heal and fury if you trait for meditations? Yeah, that one.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Aeolus.3615:

wow – inferior mechanics: Chill, Fear, Poison, DS….

/facepalm.

No irony here. The game has a group of mechanics that are dominant in the game, and a group of mechanics that aren’t.

Almost all the dominant mechanics are on the guardian. The necro is stuck with all the none dominant game mechanics, with a very strong focus on conditions and control skills.

Yes, because control and conditions are TOTALLY useless.

There’s more to this game than taking advantage of braindead PvE mobs, you know.

Mar.4839:

Arrk.4102:

Mar.4839:

Actually I believe the main issue is that people are viewing Specializations as something that is supposed to be as the OP states “logical extension of the flavor and theme of the Guardian.”

That’s the biggest mistake I think everyone is making.

Elite Specializations are designed to be horizontal progression, not vertical. We’re taking a piece of our main profession and specializing further into that aspect.

Chronomancers -> Mesmers who decided to focus more on the time aspect of their profession (which admittedly was pretty sparse to begin with).

Reapers -> Necromancers who decided to focus more on being as powerful as Death itself.

Dragonhunters -> Guardians who decided to focus more on zealous justice.

These are all just one piece of each profession that is being extended, the 2nd Elite specializations for these professions will then delve into another facet of the base profession.

A future elite spec for each could be:

Mesmer -> Some kind of mage-thief that focuses more on its stealth aspects.

Necromancer -> A Demonologist-ish kind of summoner with more focus on minions.

Guardian -> Cleric-ish boon giver/supporter with more focus on tomes.

OP is clearly one of the many that think Elite specs are supposted to be vertical progression but they aren’t. They’re just another choice to play the profession in a different way, a more focused (specialized) role.

We can even use the Druid as an example. It is not the total encompassing progression of what a Ranger is, it is just an extension of the Nature Magic part of the Ranger.

Yes but those focus their whole theme on one thing. Guardians by themselves have nothing to do with hunting, dragons or hunting dragons.
Mesmers have time magic thus Chronomancer.
Rangers have nature magic thus Druid.
Guardians have 0 relation to hunting or dragons which is why it makes no sense.

As phys has pointed out, the playstyle of the DH is to switch back and forth between melee and range, heck they even show this on the Ready-Up with the build from Tirzah.

It’s not supposed to be staying at range like a Ranger with a longbow, that’s the entire point of introducing a new playstyle but having a different flavor to it.

Reapers become melee fighters like Warriors/Guardians but the Reaper’s playstyle is different enough from both as well.

Guardians have zeal and/or can be zealous. Thus some focus on that and turn into Dragonhunters.

Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.

If we’re supposed to use this spec to alternate between ranged and melee combat, then why is the new spec focused exclusively on traits meant for the longbow? Why are we not getting more adequate gap closers/openers? Why are we getting traps, which are just about the worst utility type to be using while you’re on the move?

Also, people are being literal with the name because Anet planted that seed in their heads with the idea of the spec centered around being a “big game hunter”. Jon’s attempt at justification only ended up serving as more proof that they can’t maintain any sort of consistency with this spec.

Walhalla.5473:

Ephemiel.5694:

I love how people keep ranking the Reaper as last, but are unable to even say a reason.

Yes but it is even funnier to see People setting the Dragonhunter as last out of 9 Specs without even knowing how the 6 other Specs are themed or working.

I’d agree that it’s funny, if not for the fact that it’s probably going to be true.

Ezeriel.9574:

1. Dragon Hunter. It offers a lot to existing builds. I’m looking most forward to using this with my hammer/symbol guard. Aoe burning? Yes please…

2. Chronomancer. Every Mesmer build I have ever done had two needed trait lines, and a lot of left over points. The Chrono traits are good for condi builds, shatter builds, phantasm builds… it’s perfect.

3. Druid. I have high hopes, and it’s gotta be better than Reaper.

4. Tempest. I’m not sure about this one at all…. but it’s gotta be better than Reaper.

5.?

6.?

7.?

8. Reaper. Failed at almost everything. Necros needed mobility, group buffs, and better melee cleave. 1 out of 3 is bad.

The shouts will never be used. You need Consume Conditions, You need the movement speed signet, you need Spectral Grasp if you ever want to catch somebody, and you need Lich Form for the people you can’t catch.

…and the Reaper trait line offers nothing to the already existing builds.

The terror nerf, and the separation of staff and scepter into separate builds… it’s a mess. There is no synergy.

It’s funny, because Dragonhunter actually offers nothing to existing Guardian builds. It’s basically going to reward you for using the new longbow, and nothing else. Reaper, on the other hand, is going to work its way very well into both power and condi specs for the Necromancer.

phys.7689:

Fashion Mage.3712:

phys.7689:

The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.

lolno.

phys.7689:

i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.

It isn’t frontline or backline really. Speccing into dragonhunter heavily damages a guardian’s ability to support from the backline by changing their virtues. Their new virtues work better at close-range, and are generally much weaker supportively. Yet their longbow encourages them to stay at long-range (while providing virtually no support), and their traps can’t be ground-targeted (which, again, offer virtually no support) which encourages one to be closer to the action. So I don’t know what the spec is supposed to be or under which range it’s supposed to function, and the devs don’t seem to even know what role it’s supposed to be filling. Backline support? Please.

its looks like its supposed to go in and out of melee rng, as far as backline support, you got a long range light field with two 100% finishers for condi removal, light field itself
you got a lockdown area skill
you got projectile destruction+blind
long range vigor
targeted heal leap
that seems like some of the better support from long range

fragment of faith seems fairly useful to me (5 aegises)
blind heal trap

as for the range, think they are supposed to be going in, and out of melee combat, using their aegis/mitigation effects to place traps, remember there is a weapon swap for a reason, they arent like longbow rng who wants to be as far from you as possible, they are durable, they mostly use the rng so you cant escape, and to set up profitable lines of attack.

they arent most effecient at 1200 range, unless they have prepared the area with traps.

1. Don’t kid yourself. Deflecting Shot will never be useful as a support skill in its current iteration. The effect would have to linger for at least 3 seconds for it to work as anything other than a means to block about half of a Ranger’s Rapid Fire.

2. Again, the VoR leap will heal for 1/5 of the current radius. Not much point when you can reach a longer range with the current VoR without having a cast time. Not good for support.

3. Traps are even less reliable as support than they are as an offensive utility. Having to rely on the enemy running over a spot of land in order for you to support your allies is completely counterproductive. Why wait for them to trigger an aegis trap when I can just use Retreat to give my allies aegis instantly? Why wait for the enemy to run over my trap to heal me when I can just use Shelter to block and heal without having to worry about when the heal will proc? It’s just very poor design.

4. If we’re meant to switch in and out of melee and ranged combat, then why are we getting a trait to increase damage only when we’re more than 600 units away from the target? Why do neither the longbow nor the traps feature an effective gap closer for that distance? Why should we have to use our HEAL virtue just to close a gap once every 60 seconds, especially if it ends up reducing our damage output anyway? And why can’t we ground target our traps so that we don’t have to be so close to the enemy and lose that extra damage just to USE them?

It’s pretty obvious if you read into it that the Dragonhunter is meant to focus exclusively on the longbow or traps, which ironically counteract each other in the first place. Guardian players wanted ranged combat as an addition to our current tools and utilities, not as a replacement. This spec was just poorly designed from the ground up.

phys.7689:

what traits dont carry over? you realize all the virtue traits still work on the new virtues right? The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.

i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.

VoJ and VoC will no longer affect allies when activated, and VoR will have 1/5 the radius it has now, and at least two of those three will now have a cast time while the current iterations do not. So at best, you’ll be able to clear 3 conditions from allies within a 240 radius if you manage to leap to them (if you haven’t used it already as a gap closer/immobilize) before they move out of that radius. Do you know how big a 240 radius is? It’s the size of a traited symbol. Not really a great AoE size for an allied support skill.

So yes, in the few instances where existing traits DO carry over, it becomes even more of a problem because they end up conflicting with the new mechanics instead of working together with them. Terrific.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Black Box.9312:

SlayerSixx.5763:

A slow, hard hitting class like reaper is basically a god send for us guards who know how to actually block.

I dunno what stream you were watching yesterday, but Guardians are going to get kitten on by a good Reaper. As if our cooldowns weren’t long enough on their own, perma chill and a shout that makes attacks unblockable are going to wreak havoc on a medi guard that already has trouble disengaging without 66% less movement speed.

Eeeexxxceeeppt we aren’t forced to melee them and actually have ways of pinning them down while kiting and also have some decent condi removal?

They’ll have pulls. Also if you look at current traits alongside the new Reaper traits you’ll find that it’s probably NOT going to be so easy to pin them down.

phys.7689:

Black Box.9312:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Black Box.9312:

It’s awful. The bow looks promising, but the traps are based on terrible mechanics and are just another source of area denial, which we absolutely did not need over mobile damage sources. The traitline has no synergy with any of our existing traits. What the hell is the point of giving us extra damage against crippled enemies when the only source of cripple we have is with the new bow? Why do we have a trait that increases our damage from > 600 range if the majority of our weapons are melee? And why do we have a trait that inflicts cripple on knockback if the only reliable way to proc it is from a different bow trait (or the use of the very underwhelming shield)?

The traits you listed are meant to enhance the elite spec itself, which is to be expected. I don’t see what’s wrong about that. Also, bow’s barrage can knockback on target’s movement. The shield being underwhelming is also not DH’s fault.

Isn’t the goal of the specialization to enhance the base class though? What’s the point of using anything not related to the spec if there’s no synergy? It just makes the entire class completely divisive; you can either be a Guardian or a DH, but don’t bother trying to be both because building for one side of the equation only removes opportunities from the other side. It’s stupid and it’s counterintuitive. With the Chronomancer, interrupt builds are going to be more powerful than ever. With the Reaper, Terrormancer is going to be crazy with damage inflicted with chill, which is guaranteed alongside the fear that already does crazy damage. With DH, there’s no reason to take it unless you plan on using the longbow. It doesn’t work with anything else.

And no, the shield’s status is not related to the new spec. But it serves to reinforce my point that a trait that procs on knockback is not very useful on a Guardian.

no they arent actually supposed to enhance the base class, they are to offer a different playstyle within the theme/ability set of the base class.

reaper is essentially, what if you had a more martial necromancer.
DH is a more long ranger/hunter type guardian
chronomancer is a more support focused mesmer

they will all likely provide fairly different playstyles, not upgrades to the class. The primary focus is expanding the way you play the game, not the powers/flaws of the class.

take for example engineer, no weapon swap means he is basically at his base a meleer, new utilities basically alter their f1-f5 skills into what will likely be very different style than they usually have.

think alternate mini class rather than buffed up main class

If it’s supposed to fit the theme and ability set of the current class, then why does the Dragonhunter feel like a 100% departure from what we have with the Guardian right now? None of the traits carry over between the two, and the “theme” is a complete 180 from what we’ve come to expect from the Guardian.