Guild Wars 2

It’s weird. Of all the people posting prior to the beta weekend, you did the most to defend the DD.

Thief is in a really bad place. I’m a masochist running P/P. It has its moments but it’s so far from any other setup on any other class, that I don’t understand what they could possibly be thinking.

This is some seriously necro’d thread action.

Where, exactly, will the conditions come from on a P/P build? In WvW, it’s not 1v1 with interrupts and blinds. It does NO good to blind or interrupt one guy while his ten friends burn you down.

way over hyped
/15characters

Thief has always had an issue with condi cleanse, but it seems to me on my recent return that we have more than ever. More importantly, they are spread out over a wide variety of skills, traits, and approaches to the class. Not counting future changes we have:

Trickster
Shadow’s Embrace
Pain Response
Guarded Initiation
Don’t Stop (not a cleanse)
Withdraw
Roll for Initiative
Hide in Shadows
Shadowstep
Signet of Agility

Add in options like sigils of generosity, cleansing, and purity and we’re in a pretty good spot these days. Certainly a lot better than the old days. In fact, I never use SA and I seem to do okay when it comes to condi. Overall, we’re still delicate flowers, but I don’t think the old arguments about “having” to choose one trait line for condi is still true.

Whining about whining. How meta.

No lectures, please.

Bryzy.2719:

Most other profession elite specs will have had 2 beta weekends’ worth of play time over Druids and whatever the Engi elite is. I’ve pre-purchased just like anyone else, so why can’t I play my Druid at the same time others can play their elite specs?

I’ll trade you my thief’s beta play time for a class that actually works or your 1200 range, either one.

ronpierce.2760:

Black Frog.9274:

ronpierce.2760:

Black Frog.9274:

It’s amazing how many people in this thread don’t comment in thief forum regularly, yet have much to say here. You can tell who plays thief regularly and who doesn’t.

I’ve posted the thread for reveal every week so far for every class. :P

That said, I’m particularly excited about this one because I don’t like normal thief much. I’m not a fan of the hit and run style, and by the sounds of it, this might be a turning port for that pigeonhole thieves find themselves in.

That doesn’t make you a thief poster. In fact, going over your history, you seem to be a Revenant and Necromancer fan and one of those bizarre people who thinks thief is just fine. I’ll say to you what I say to everyone who supports such a view: post your video showing thieves how to play the class in WvW or PvP. We’d love to learn from an expert, so show us how it’s done.

Congrats, you’ve just discovered you can’t read! I just said I’ve made a habit of posting each classes reveal information. Also, the reason I don’t play Thief is the one role it does do (very well), is highly not appealing to me, which is sort of the notion I get from many thieves who complain these days, who ignore the fact that Thief is essentially MVP on any high tier team.

That said, this specialization sounds like it would provide better staying power, and a means of playing that most Thieves tend to sound like they’d rather gravitate toward. People get frustrated with their own class because it’s built with a specific role in mind, which boggles me every time they complain because it does exactly what you’d expect it to do. It has unmatched mobility and tactical ways to spike a player down and turn team fights. All I can really say is I’m sorry it’s not the glorious ninja/assassin everyone wishes it was.

Translation: You don’t know what you’re talking about, but you’re happy to post information that, ultimately, is irrelevant. The really funny part of your post was “I don’t play Thief.”

ronpierce.2760:

Black Frog.9274:

It’s amazing how many people in this thread don’t comment in thief forum regularly, yet have much to say here. You can tell who plays thief regularly and who doesn’t.

I’ve posted the thread for reveal every week so far for every class. :P

That said, I’m particularly excited about this one because I don’t like normal thief much. I’m not a fan of the hit and run style, and by the sounds of it, this might be a turning port for that pigeonhole thieves find themselves in.

That doesn’t make you a thief poster. In fact, going over your history, you seem to be a Revenant and Necromancer fan and one of those bizarre people who thinks thief is just fine. I’ll say to you what I say to everyone who supports such a view: post your video showing thieves how to play the class in WvW or PvP. We’d love to learn from an expert, so show us how it’s done.

It’s amazing how many people in this thread don’t comment in thief forum regularly, yet have much to say here. You can tell who plays thief regularly and who doesn’t.

Llort.9267:

Staff it is. Hopefully it will be decent as weapon, and hey don’t remove stealth. One thing that I would wish they did is that any staff on a thief would visually look like a naginata or at least a bo staff, but knowing Anet, we will have to run around with glowing sticks and clubs.

Ooncha, ooncha , ooncha, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL-893hKSzI

great. more close range combat to get us killed since we don’t have any staying power.

more viagra please.

Someone’s out of the loop

DeceiverX.8361:

I’ll continue not running either of them so I can get the satisfaction when winning a fight of knowing I didn’t win from RNG/sigils carrying me if my opponent avoided my burst and I recovered from said avoidance.

eHonor is overrated

DeceiverX.8361:

Girbilcannon.8259:

Anet is like a hardcore feminist extremist…They accept the P/P, but will do anything in their power to make it less powerful.

I lol’d

lol’d again

and lol’d some more.

Nice one. 3punny

With comments like these, it’s no wonder they avoid this forum. Grow up.

A couple posts above its use in other games is split into two concepts. I tend to think of it in D&D and Fallout terms, which fits the “sneak” mode mentioned. In that schema, you get one chance to surprise someone with an attack. After that, you’re on your own until you can break LoS, audible range, or similar “find you” skills.

When people complain about stealth, they’re complaining about not being visible after that first attack. That’s what people hate. I think most nerfs are focused on that usage. And since it’s an option in GW2, they’ve built our defenses into it as a type of balance—sure you can sneak in combat, but you’ll need it to survive, not just attack. As previously mentioned, they need to be decoupled. Right now it’s like trying to adjust a sound board where two levels are locked to each other.

I would much prefer to have sneak skills for recon and more traditional offensive/defensive skills than what we currently have. Then sneak skills could be adjusted without crippling the class AND we could actually take more than a hit or two before being forced to run away.

Faux.1937:

Stealth isnt a problem. You get reveal with 1 attack, you can still take damage, you move slower, etc…

Stealth adds to the game, why take something away that adds… its not game break in anyway at all.

My point is not that it’s a problem, it’s that everyone else thinks it’s a problem and they’ve been complaining for years. The cumulative nerfs of the past few years far outweigh the actual, practical benefits of stealth for thieves.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the balance logic that is applied to thieves when you compare it to the logic applied to other classes. I can’t figure out what the devs think they’re balancing us against. Is stealth so hard to quantify in the balance equation that they just scream “kitten it” and start swinging the nerf bat?

A long time ago I posted that I would gladly give up stealth for the class just to shut the “nerf thieves” crowd up. Now that our class has been gutted, I think it’s time. Get rid of stealth and everything associated with it. Replace it with a “shadow” ability that leaves us visible but gives us some combination of hard to hit, hard to damage, or reduces crit chances against us, that sort of thing.

yolo, srsly, what is there to say? you’re usually pretty well spoken, but this is ranty. They’re going to do whatever they’re going to do. At the end of the day, the only way to vote is with your feet. Just walk away.

Gone baby gone, love is gone, yeah, gone baby gone, love is gone away. (xylophone solo)

Melee staff is stupid. What could it offer that thief doesn’t already have? That’s what it comes down to really.

I think you’d be better off calling all cars. Or maybe trucks.

NO. I am the worst PvP thief. And there’s nothing you can say or do to change that. I’ll fight you to my death to prove it!

The general thief range discussion always seems to go off the rails at the point of over comparing specific abilities/weapons of other classes.

For me, it comes down to range envelopes. Thieves can’t fight at range without also being inside their opponent’s range envelope. It is incredibly difficult fight at range and stay alive. As soon as we start talking about anything other than 1v1, the fact that every other class can fight at 1200 or further (regardless of the specific weapons) puts thieves at a huge disadvantage. This is most obvious in WvW.

If you’re going to make the “thief = melee” argument then you’ll need to address why tank classes get both melee and ranged benefits (and much better survivability). And why “backline” classes have access to stealth at ALL (regardless of the details). You’ll also need to address the problem with thief in WvW. It’s a zerg venue. Thieves get pushed into scouting, hunting stragglers, and camp flipping (assuming there aren’t multiple zergs working the map and timers). That’s not much of a role. It’s also a role performed as well or better by rangers and mesmers.

I invite anyone who thinks everything’s fine with thief range to take a p/p thief into WvW on a server that has an actual population, and show us all how it’s done. I will gladly learn from you.

Hmm. Not a fan of improving P/P solely through the elite spec. Not least because activating an elite spec means trading out one of your 3 current specs. (correct me if i’m wrong, but i think that’s how it works.) Proper P/P shouldn’t be chained to a spec.

After playing some more with P/P in Silverwastes, I think the real issues with P/P tend to crop up in WvW. PvE with P/P is relatively ok, but the lack of init is aggravating. Also, overall DPS if you’re NOT spamming Unload is lackluster at best. I don’t really play other classes, so I can’t do a proper comparison, but watching others in PvE, it sure does seem like they put out more damage on average.

After doing a bit of digging I found the original Reddit post. Zooming in, I couldn’t help but notice that there is something that looks a lot like a strap strung from a small circle on the underside near the top, under his forward elbow, under the stick/barrel across the chest, and then over what appears to be (maybe) the top of his other arm. There is something that looks like the frayed end of a rope close to the forward ring as well.

I guess we’ll all know soon enough.

I guess I’m blind or something. Is this artwork currently in the game, somewhere on the trait tab? Or maybe in teh beta? Could you point me to it?

If it were just Ricochet, I might agree with you. But the combined effects of the nerfs have killed what little good there was about P/P. It’s always been the red-headed stepchild, but these recent changes have really taken things to a new level. I’d like to see the devs put out a video showing how they expect P/P to be used. Maybe there’s something we’re missing.

I’m curious about where the picture comes from. It looks like it’s part of a bigger picture and I’d like to see the rest.

I finally got around to logging back in after many months away. Brought my P/P thief out to WvW to evaluate things.

So far, here’s how it looks to me:

I’m happy with the range bonus on Ankle Shot, I just wish I wasn’t forced to trait Ankle Shots to get the range. Make pistols longer range already or package range and other goodies into a trait aimed at Pistols.

Single target DPS is pretty good… provided the target stands still. As has always been the case with P/P in WvW, the shorter range envelope means that the target can escape more easily and to get back into range, you have to put yourself even deeper into their group’s envelope. That’s death for thieves.

Initiative has always been an issue, with the loss of Initiative generation on crit trait (I forget it’s name), it’s an actual problem to contend with. Ricochet allowed you to generate the initiative off many people so if 1 moves out of range, you’re still doing ok. Alas for ricochet. If the single shot pistol skills were worth anything, I’d complain less. However, the single shot skills are all balanced and purposed for PvP and 1v1 type battles. You can’t interrupt a group and interrupting a single player in the group is mostly pointless. Of course, even it were great, the short range envelope would get you killed. Without the extra intiative, you’re reduced to no initiative and if you want to keep firing, you’re stuck with crappy pistol skills which then eat into your initiative regeneration.

SoM still works and with the extra DPS, I guess it’s about the same… provided the target stands still/in range. Ricochet allowed you to generate the heals off many people so if 1 moves out of range, you’re still doing ok. Alas for ricochet.

The way the trait lines are arranged, you end up with choices that don’t really play to the P/P style’s strengths or shore up it’s weaknesses. On the plus side, there’s more condition cleanse options than ever. If only I could operate on the edge of enemy range envelope, so that the conditions aren’t instantly reapplied by every enemy in the area.

In PvE and WvW, one of the things that drives me crazy is that without much in the way of ranged options or long enough range options, is that everyone else can generate enough AoE effects to tag all the targets, which means they get in on more kills and get more loots. That is incredibly annoying. In many cases, in the time it takes to proc an Unload, the entire mob has been wiped out.

Anyway, that’s my two cents

it’s dumb because thief doesn’t need another melee weapon, isn’t anything like a monk, isn’t a martial artist, has no physical skills (though I’d kind of like to have the warrior ones), and for sure isn’t a stand still and fight class. As for magic staves, thief isn’t a magic class.

All that said, since ANET seems to enjoy punishing thieves, it’s probably exactly what they’ll give us.

Also, what leaks? There are no “leaks.”

This thread is beginning to remind me of Kramer’s strike at H&H Bagels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r235gwc_dxk

babazhook.6805:

Volrath.1473:

Question: You have not one single trick equipped, yet you took the Trickster trait, why?!
you are running with 4 deception and one venom, trickster trait dos nothing for you…

well he does have flanking strikes but I would consider at least one more such as RFI. RFI woks very well in a p/p set.

I always found RFI one of those things that looks good on paper, but the reality is that you almost always end up rolling yourself out of range unless you’re right on top of your target to begin with. Maybe with the reverse direction trick it’s more useful, but I could never master that in actual combat.

babazhook.6805:

Kizare.7950:

Post a vid of you fighting a good Zerg just to see how Weak or Strong it is against it.

It pretty hard for any thief build to fight against a good zerg. Some can survive longer but they are going to spend a whole lot of time in stealth doing no damage. This is not how one measures the merits of a weaponset.

Thanks for the Ankle Shot info. As usual, your calm, measured posts have helped to keep me from raging against ANET. My main concern with the loss of Ricochet was the range bonus. I haven’t been back in game for a while, so I was relying on info posts and the builder sites for insight into P/P’s future.

As for my previous zerg comment and the one quoted above, the issue isn’t going head to head with a zerg. It’s rare for the zerg to focus fire on the thief. The issue is working with your own zerg and working within range of the enemy’s back lines. Even with the range bonus, P/P thief has to get inside the enemy’s range envelope to do damage. At 900, it’s difficult to get in and out of the envelope (hit and run; strike and fade). At 1050, it’s easier, but still dangerous. I did pretty well with SoM and IP to stay up and running with Ricochet. With a single target, I’m wondering how productive SoM and IP will be now.

On the other hand, it looks like there are more options for reducing conditions and mitigating reduced movement effects (those were the killer combo of the range envelope; slow you down and then saturate the area).

I might just log in again.

babazhook.6805:

Range is the same if you trait ankle shots.

Playing with character creation sites, I don’t see any range improvement with ankle shots. What am I missing?

I find it difficult to believe on the top performing servers that P/P in WvW with only 900 range will be successful. Even with the previous range of ricochet, staying alive while trying to play within the range pocket of 1200+ weapons was difficult. Perhaps it works on low pop servers where the zerg won’t crush you the moment you become visible/in range. I’ll keep on eye on the forums for updated reports of P/P in the new regime, but WvW P/P thieves needed all the sustain help they could get. Ricochet fed that pretty well (but not well enough). Maybe some kind soul can put up some more WvW vids.

I played P/P thief since 3 months after GW2 launch. I played it through all its iterations. I played it in WvW, even when it was patently ridiculous to do so (and one guy even told me to kill myself :P [kitten him]). I stopped playing about 4 or 5 months ago. I had a vague hope that something might change with HoT. That hope is dead. Pistols for condition damage? How uninspiring. How non-pistol-y.

I can’t imagine returning to the game now. Not that I give it a lot of thought. Who wants to spend more button mashing time grinding meaningless achievements? At least with my pistols I had some small amount of cackling, maniacal (though ultimately pointless in WvW) fun. They should just nut the kitten up and kill the set altogether, rather than try to limp things along.

What’s weird is the complete dev silence on the topic. They straight up killed the P/P thief in silence.

We’ll all pretend we don’t notice that your skills bar is empty while holding a weapon. Totally not suspicious.

Ricochet is something that we should be able to turn on and off, whether by selecting/deselecting a trait or some other mechanic. I wouldn’t want an “always on” version of it, especially in PvE. In PvE, ricochet draws aggro too easily.

Xar.1387:

Think of it this way

Think of it this way: some people will pay for anything, no matter how bad it is.

It’s hilarious that you went to one forum claiming something and then, afterwards, you came here to find out if it was true.

Nyx.7342:

;_; but rifle will be so useless……only place i can see it ever being used is wuvs in order to snipe people

long range thief is a good thing, even IF it does no good outside wvw

whar p/p thief in the pecking order?

Ephemiel.5694:

Asudementio.8526:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Torch, mainhand sword, and rifle make the most sense for thieves atm.

Torch less so, but it could happen.

Thief specialization called Blackjack that uses mace as a immob, cripple combo weapon.

He also cheats at card games.

Counting cards isn’t cheating!

So you reused the build from that old thread where the guy records his no weapon thief wvw adventures. Congrats. Nothing like a copycat.

I read “somewhere” that thieves were going to have a new power called “dance off” where they go head to head in PvP with some poppin’ and lockin’ and then yell “You got served!” when they win.

I like the idea of scorpion wire combined with physical skills that down or push people. I like the idea of creating physical distance with a push/knockdown after an attack. Stealth, knockdown, stab stab stab, dodge, pull into trap with scorpion wire, push, stealth. Yeah baby. Mmmmm.

Physical would go nicely with thief for a little more ninja-y, martial arts feel.

When the OP is out of the conversation early on, you know its all trololol. You can end the thread now.