Guild Wars 2

Zodryn.4216:

I just hope Karl says “Hey guys, we fixed that bug because we’re giving you 1200 range baseline! Enjoy.”

If only. I’m sure that even if they did, it would be followed by a groin punch.

And may I add, since when is a thrown dagger an “arcing projectile”?

Azure Prower.8701:

The short bow has a slightly higher range because of the unique way that trick shot works.

It’s listed at 900 range. Period. Define 900. If 900 isn’t a specific number, please specify how we might philosophically evaluate a tool tip of 900. Either 900 is 900, or it isn’t.

Auesis.7301:

SB 1 and Dagger 4 are arcing projectiles. Based on height, they can land further than the designated distance. It’s just how the physics of the game works. At ground level you can get 100-ish, with some slight elevation you can get another extra 100 or so.

Firearms for all classes don’t use arcing projectiles, instead firing in a straight line. This means they don’t get any bonus distance.

lolwut. if that were true, then the AoE center point would match the SB 1 distance. It doesn’t. Go into the Mists and try it on the dummy targets.

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Volrath.1473:

probably just a bug, it will be fixed no need for drama.

edit: funny video though :P

I don’t think you read the patch notes

Karl McLain.5604:

FYI the damage increases weren’t part of a re-work of pistols or anything (something I’ve discussed in the past). We realize it still needs some work to get it to where we want, but we wanted to get it closer to being to that point with these changes. We’ll be looking at pistols more in-depth in the future.

-Karl

Nobody’s listening anymore.

“Trust is a function of two things: character and competence.”

Here you go – pistol buff! BAM! Nerf to distance.

Was that really necessary?

I don’t often start threads (though this is my second today). This will be my last. I’ve never been happier that I didn’t buy HoT. I’m done waiting for miracles.

I’m not sure if I’m running into a bug or something else. Perhaps someone else can help me test.

I got online today to see if in fact the pistol had been screwed as I’d read in the patch notes (btw kitten you for hiding that until patch day).

I went into the mists to test on the dummies. I figured the only way to know if it’s 900 is to stand where a 900 weapon just goes out of range and then switch to pistol.

Guess what? It turns out that SB 1, 3 and pistol don’t have the same range. The short bow range for SB 1 is equal to the far edge of its widest AoE (~1050; sound familiar?). The pistols range is equal to the middle of the AoE range. At first, that almost makes some kind of sense, until you pull out Dagger 4. Its distance is the same as Short Bow 1.

So, either SB and Dagger 4 got a range buff somewhere along the line or pistol is even shorter distance than 900.

btw why does SB 1 sometimes show as “kitten” 1

While I get the +20% is equal to Ini argument, it assumes that my goal is to fire twice for damage alone. I want to proc crits too. I would rather have the ini reduction.

Still, I’ll take the damage bonus. I want my 1200 range though. It’s too easy for ranged characters to keep me at their optimal and remain outside of mine.

Two general comments:

• Don’t screw with Unload. Do something with the other attacks.
• Please keep in mind that what works for other builds doesn’t necessarily work with P/P. The utilities that give us decent synergy also mean we have to sacrifice pretty much everything that the typical thief uses. Alternately, we take those things and limp along with the pistols. I guess we’ll see how the damage bonus affects choices.

It’s an addiction. I’m sure there’s a 12-step group somewhere that can help you.

Zero Day.2594:

Llort.9267:

Especially considering the fact that the devs said elite specs are not going to be more powerful than non-elites,

I challenge you to not use that pic for the next 60 days. It’s your favorite and you can’t seem to stop yourself from overusing it. kitten, please.

The Wizland.8435:

My point is that the community here is overly negative and toxic, as evidenced by the replies.

I agree that you have contributed to the creation of a negative, toxic community. How about instead of whining about whining, you tell us how to improve thief. Or perhaps how it’s OP. Or anything remotely resembling the “constructive” environment you favor.

Stop being so melodramatic, he said, melodramatically.

As I always do when I see these posts, I say:

Whining about whining. How meta.

Ghotistyx.6942:

If you deal enough damage, you don’t need survivability.

Because watching someone die while you’re dying is totally rewarding. I know I love killing someone while I’m being stomped. Totes rewarding.

to fix something, you must first admit it is broken

1200 range, bring back Opportunist

Hello, hello, hello, is there anybody in there?

Admire my naked booty, kittenes. I’m all for nude kill sprees in WvW

Agemnon.4608:

Black Frog.9274:

Agemnon.4608:

blibbity blabbity

So it IS a bug.

The “fixing” of which would result in nerfing the class. Why do they seem to care about this one particular “bug” when there are countless others for other classes or even bad bugs within thief itself like mentioned earlier?

Why not fix all bugs and balance everything properly? You’re trying to make the case that a bug that is beneficial to you not be removed. I suspect if the bug were NOT beneficial to you, you’d want it fixed. That’s the definition of hypocrisy.

I get your frustration, but that is warped logic.

Arctarius.2649:

Black Frog.9274:

They could have named it monk, but they didn’t. It’s not a monk.

Also, there’s no Asia in Tyria.

Obviously you did not play GW1 or read much lore in GW2. There is in fact an Asia with monks on a continent called Cantha. They just have not implemented it into GW2 yet. If you recall the Bird people in the game (the tengu) they are also Asians from cantha.

Kyrion.2749:

MrForz.1953:

Kyrion.2749:

Black Frog.9274:

Also, there’s no Asia in Tyria.

* Sigh… *

Well, then just leave it out there for Pete’s sake. Plus, if I recall correctly, it’s not exactly the sweetest place to tread in.

Altough it was indeed left out at GW2 release, Cantha is still very present in the game’s lore. There are lots of references to it across the game’s content, many characters are undoubtely of Canthan origin, and even one of the Fractal mini-dungeons is a chunk of the Jade Sea.

If you ask me, I’d say that ANet is just awaiting the proper moment to release it as an expansion.

Kyrion.2749:

Black Frog.9274:

Also, there’s no Asia in Tyria.

* Sigh… *

That’s a place called Cantha. It’s not Asia. Asia is on a planet called Earth. Perhaps you’ve heard of it.

Agemnon.4608:

blibbity blabbity

So it IS a bug.

Save your speech, I’ve been on the buff thief train for a long time. You’re just being difficult. Rant elsewhere. Like maybe one of the 100 other threads about how to improve thief.

They could have named it monk, but they didn’t. It’s not a monk.

Also, there’s no Asia in Tyria.

My name is Qixit and… I’m a thief-aholic.

I prefer headgear that lets our ears fly free. Have you noticed the ears in combat? I love that.

We have one inherent advantage: we die faster, which allows us to waypoint faster. Woot!

I get what you’re saying, BUT we’ve been posting for years to no avail. If the reason they aren’t doing what they ought to do is because their feewings are hurt by our less than obsequious posting, then they can bite my behind.

jaif.3518:

Your statement about invis+1200 is silly. We’re already snipers. Not being able to see us while we line up a shot is exactly what is happening right now. Everyone has a ranged weapon that could hit us at 1200 and at our current range. You can’t see us now and you are in range to respond in kind. So what about the range and invisibility is an issue?

Because at range 1200 a well-built stealthing thief will never get hit. Nobody could line up AoEs to reveal, nobody could click on us fast enough to use their reveal power. We would be the fishbowl warriors I was saying – everyone is a fish in a bowl, and we reach our hands in with impunity and pull them out.

Even if revealed, at range 1200 it’s no issue to dodge a couple of times and get out. Nobody would ever land a blow.

-Jeff

The only benefit the stealth thief gets is the first shot. He’s revealed once he fires. Every class has dodges and evades. They can dodge or move away as easily as the thief.

And what is the difference in the current situation? At 1050, he fires, is revealed, and can shadowstep out of range, RoI out of range, dodge out of range, etc. The reveal abilities that other classes have are active out to 1200 and 2000 currently, and appear to be ranged for the new specializations as well.

I’m still not seeing the issue.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance (not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support), other Devs went wild with their profession development and just letting it all out of control.

I think Karl and his team need to loosen up also and let the Thief off the leash — I mean just open your eyes and look around you. The Thief profession is suffocating.

“Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door
I don’t care what they’re going to say
Let the storm rage on”

Give us burn and confusion

does reveal work on mes?

Xeno.4610:

Zachary Stiers.1879:

This is a complex problem. The intention was to make it harder to fire from the ground onto and over walls while still being able to fire from walls downward, but trying to get such behavior is not simple. I do agree that the cases displayed in the screenshots are not great though.

I really like this change Always considered WvW as large scale player vs. player areana, not siege wars simulator. You want to defend, then fight like a fighter instead of hiding behind walls and pressing 1 for devastating damage…

Then why have walls at all? Or objectives for that matter?

jaif.3518:

Linfang.1087:

At least Karl acknowledged that pistols need help. first thing I would do is make them 1200 range, —-—considering we are the only profession in game that has no 1200 range weapon.—— Even with DareDevil we get no 1200. Sure steal is 1200. But who wants to steal into a Boss who has a huge PB aoe and cleave?

Stealth + 1200 = OP

Look, I love pistols and want to see them buffed, but making thieves into snipers is idiotic for the game. A whole bunch of fishbowl warriors looking to see who dips their hand into the bowl to try to get the stupid little GWENs swimming around.

Personally I think the pistol stealth attack needs to be changed to moar damage and cripple, not bleed. That will synergize with the trait.

We’ve got all the cripple we need, thank you. We need damage.

Your statement about invis+1200 is silly. We’re already snipers. Not being able to see us while we line up a shot is exactly what is happening right now. Everyone has a ranged weapon that could hit us at 1200 and at our current range. You can’t see us now and you are in range to respond in kind. So what about the range and invisibility is an issue?

why on earth would you start a new thread for this? Just for the thread title?

Einlanzer.1627:

I’ve been saying for over 2 years they need to buff/realign Vital Shot (increase physical damage by about 50%, decrease bleed damage by about 25%, make it the opposite of the sneak attack) and rework Unload as an AoE. It makes by far more sense than anything else short of a complete overhaul to the entire set.

If it’s an aimed AoE like a bow shot, no thanks. If it’s an AoE around my targeted enemy, maybe. I don’t want my target taking 2 steps to the left (and then a step to the right) and leaving the AoE.

Baseline range of 1200.

Return Opportunist or reduce init for Unload if you don’t change the 1245 skills.

While balancing, keep in mind WvW group play is very different than PvP. Please take the time to send a P/P thief into large scale combat not just camp flipping.

Keep in mind that P/P is useless if you can’t keep the target in range. Part of what makes melee thief dangerous is that it’s hard to get out of his range. It’s easy to get out of P/P range, even with immob from panic strike and cripple from Ankle shots. I’d give anything for a knockdown or longer daze.

If you can find a way to get burning into the mix…

Please keep in mind that P/P thief has much less invisibility on average because the traits/utils that fit that style require sacrifice for other utils. I don’t particularly want more stealth. I’d rather have some other way to stay alive. I can’t keep firing if I’m dead.

Random idea: some sort of Quick Draw ability that reduces swap time.

And the heavenly choir sang, HALLELUJAH

The nature of the enemies in SW makes standing close to them an extremely bad idea. If you do melee, you’re constantly having to get into and out of range, which makes fights so much longer. You only have so many evades you can do with thief these days and if you get rooted by husks or crippled by dogs, things get sticky fast. Teragrifs will eat your thief for lunch.

Shimekiri.1580:

3 second burst window every 8 seconds, instead of 10% all of the time and even then, the raw math([100/8*3]*0,1=3,75% increase in damage over time.) will only show the “optimal damage increase” result, when in reality you won’t be able to even use 1 single Unload everytime you have the “buff” up. Compare that to a flat 10% bonus and well… you get the point. This isn’t taking into account the crit chance loss we had either. Long story short: Our damage is worse than what it was and by a semi-noticeable margin.

I listed many more damage traits than just ankle shots. They’re also in more than one line. What about them? Why haven’t you factored that in?

I don’t know about you, but with the Fury uptime, I can run 100% crit chance with an Assassin set. With a basic berserker setup (2 pistols, armor, scholar, accessories) and NO utilities, not counting Fury, and no upgrades on the trinkets, you get 58% base crit chance. Add in the crit bonuses that are situational from Crit line (fury at 20, 5, 7) and you’re at 90% a good amount of time and 78% almost permanently. And that’s without food/utilities/buffs/sigils.

Let’s see the build you’re referring to.

Sagat.3285:

If we are going to make suggestions here is mine :make Unload a evading skill like SB #3. Just buffing AA won’t do anything.

No thanks. I’d prefer to stay in range of my target. #3 SB is a “get away from melee guy who closed range on me skill.” Unload is a “feel my wrath” skill.

I’m not big on nerfing damage and turning into AoE either. I liked Ricochet well enough, but if we’re not getting it back. Perhaps flip #5 to AoE on target rather than personal field. I know d/p won’t like that, but…

Over the past 2 months, my wish list for p/p has crystallized on 1200 range, more hp, and return Opportunist. Better #1 would be good. Piercing is an interesting idea.

Shimekiri.1580:

No matter how you choose your talents, you will do less damage overall than with the old talent system

I’m not sure that’s true for a crit build. Between Executioner, Exposed Weakness (w/ Panic Strike, pistol 1/2/5, Serpent’s touch, Lotus Poison, poisons/sigils), Ankle Shots, Flawless Strikes, and Ferocious Strikes, there’s quite a bit of bonus damage and basically infinite Fury.

I miss Opportunist though. Man do I miss it.

Wow this thread got Godwin’d, derailed, and plenty of irrelevant posts in no time at all.

To the OP’s point: actually the attacker and defender are following the same LoS rules. It’s just that the area of effect can be “folded” over the edge, while the LoS in the oppisite direction can’t break that edge.

Quells.2498:

The short answer is because you have to take the risk of attacking otherwise it wouldn’t be an interesting interaction.

wut? What’s the point of having defensive structures with WALLS instead of a closed building that forces you to come out? Absurd reasoning.

Daendur.2357:

get out of that keep and fight.

Because 1 v zerg makes so much sense.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Your working under, what I feel, is a misconception that thieves are intended to defend walls.

I don’t see “top of wall mastery” on any profession’s description of traits. Is there some particular reason why they SHOULDN’T be able to fire down from a wall? Other than the obvious one at the beginning of this post.

Quells.2498:

WvW isn’t modeled after real war it’s modeled to provide interesting decisions as often as possible.

Yes. Running in circles and performing the same actions repeatedly for years on end are “interesting decisions.” Please. Who are you kidding?

Elite Dangerous

I just don’t get your “logic” for ranges. The ranges of the game’s bow/rifle whether actual or relative to each other have no bearing on reality. And the difference between a “short” bow (in D&D and other games its comparable to a horse bow) and a pistol isn’t realistic either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow#Range
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_rifle#Maximum_effective_range
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_bow#Range

If we wanted to get comparative about it and set it up according to real world constraints, pistol would either have even less range relative to the other two (and short bow more than currently) or bows, rifles, and pistols would have much, much more range.

You’re also making my point about your claim that other classes will want extra range. They may want it, but the point and purpose of our use of the pistol is very different than theirs. So why would/should that be a barrier?

It sounds like there’s no balance argument here. Just the inertia of “how things have been.” It doesn’t appear like it would have any game breaking qualities and the only thing I’m hearing is “it’s a flavor thing.”

Trait, utility, and gear for speed (as much swiftness, leap, etc as possible). If invisibility is available to you, that too. Run from WP to WP without stopping. If you can handle an event on your path, go for it. Don’t forget to harvest nodes when possible. On maps with a higher level than your own, you will aggro everything in line of sight, so keep moving no matter what. If you die, return to last WP. Do your best to catch the WP’s nearest to map transition points and try to cut a path to each home city as soon as you can. After you do that for a little while, you can go back to some key events to run them normally. Don’t bother buying gear that doesn’t help your speed until you’re ready to start fighting. No more than once every ten levels.

There are afk ways, but I’m not sharing. When I see someone afk leeching XP off something I’m trying to run, I immediately kite the enemy to them and let the event fail.

Kocoff.7582:

I mean it was said from the very beginning, Close combat, deadly 1v1 profession. The only thing that is 1200 range for us is teleportation. Which is quick infiltration or exfiltration in the heat of battle. If Pistol gets 1200 range than what about rifle? Engineers will also start asking for their pistol range to be 1200 range… It would turn into a mess.

There would be discrepancies that wouldn’t make sense in the Virtual Reality.

Let’s hope Rifle comes for next elite spec because 900 for pistol is only reasonable.

I’m not hearing any real reasons.

First, their pistols are different from ours—different abilities entirely. If we’re worrying about some sort of internal logic (which is weird since swords are handled so differently from class to class, to name one, or STAFF, for another. where’s my 1200 range magic projectiles??), I would simply say that it’s the difference between a street cop using a pistol and an expert marksman. The expert is just better with the same weapon.

Second, I would point out that there is at least one class and often many more, that can do everything we can do. I don’t think there are any other backstabbers, but there is no other effect, type of damage, condition, or anything else (I may be wrong, but nothing comes to mind) that some other class doesn’t have and that isn’t done better. I’m not sure why we would be the exception to that. If consistency is the issue, then giving us 1200 would create consistency, not break it. Srsly? Don’t do it because other classes would complain?

Third, let’s see some balance math. I’m not much of a theory crafter, but I’m not seeing the problem. Come to think of it, whenever this comes up in threads, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually break it down beyond vague assertions.

It says 8 shots, but its actually 4 “pulses,” two shots from each gun x 4.

There’s no logical reason for thief to be the only class without 1200 range. I would have taken my range with a rifle, but sadly that wasn’t to be (*cough*veryskepticalguy*cough*). I’d settle for 1050 baseline, with a bonus on Ankle Shots to 1200 or some similar arrangement. Or even something like GM trait that competes with Executioner or another highly valued trait.

The vulnerability thing is already available on #2. Also immob. With the 10% damage on targets with conditions trait (forget name), you hit 2 then 3. Or take the suggested trait and give up the distance (hard to do, I know). There’s also a sigil.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Even with ricochet, p/p wasn’t really something you’d ever use in pve (I would know, as I ran p/p in pve). That being said, there are already plenty of different ways to play p/p, and more are coming with daredevil.

I’ve run nothing BUT p/p in PvE for the past 3 years. It works great. I’ve actually had quite a bit of fun in SW. WvW is the issue (I know nothing about pvp). I’d love to see some vid of these great builds (or adequate or whatever) in action. Especially in tier 1 or tier 2 WvW, because I seem to be the only person who ever runs it there. I occasionally see someone try it out. There might be one or two masochists like myself out there.

We all have to resign ourselves: ricochet is gone for good. Single target damage is better now, esp with the right traits, so spreading it out with Ricochet would be pretty powerful. I don’t even know what it would replace if they brought it back.

If I could choose an old trait to bring back, I’d rather have Opportunist. If I could just name preferences, I’d want 1200 range first, then Opportunist, then more base HP, then improved bleed on the AA (duration or another stack).

edit: while it doesn’t have true AoE, you might want to take a closer look at p/p by taking it against some large groups in pve. I’m not 100% sure, but its basically a wide beam. When targets step into the path, they get hit even if they aren’t the selected target. Combine this with high mobility and circles, you can simulate AoE. This is a useless tactic in WvW though, because no one is just going to let you spin circles around them.

It’s a war zone. While I don’t personally interrupt duels, duelers have to accept that they can be killed at any moment by anyone who wants to kill them. Complaining about it or invoking e-honor is silly. Obsidian Sanctum is where you need to be if you want to duel.

The point of WvW is highest score and that isn’t helped when you’re keeping a spot on the map from someone waiting in the queue while you’re dueling. You’re also giving up points every time you get stomped with Bloodlust active. You’re not capturing anything, you’re not defending anything, and you’re not providing intel. In effect, you’re playing against your own server.

I don’t know about other servers, but the speed at which the action takes place on Blackgate leaves zero time for sorting out who is or isn’t in a duel. If you’re red and in range, someone is going to be attacking you. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve seen a duel for quite some time.

Fair warning: I’m terrible. I’ve used a variant of this build for quite a while. It was so much better (or at least felt better) with Ricochet and Opportunist (the get init on crit one).

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZQQNAqaFl8MhenghTg+JOgJKfaEHtx+C+gBVnABQGA-T1CBABlfIAiZ/htUaYoeAtUmhmSwRV/RiHAAAnAAV0EsxRAIAACwOrzA4oH9oH9oHtduzhuzhO0SBUuwI-w

The blank utility varies often. In WvW, keeping up with everyone if there aren’t tons of swiftness generator means SoS. I often have Blinding Powder for getaways. Sometimes Radiation Field (Asura). Occasionally poison. When I’m with a small group or running around alone to get somewhere, I switch to HiS, SR, BP, and SoS. The bow is mostly a “save me and run away” tool.

I’m sure someone will explain how exactly it’s terrible, but it seems to work ok, considering its P/P. It is surprisingly durable. I generally run with groups/zergs. No dueling (I’m a button masher). I think of myself as the machine gunner.

With the Fury uptime, you’re guaranteed to get bonus damage and you’ll get your on crit hits at max rate. I could go with Invigorating Precision for more health. I’m tempted to trade Ankle Shots for Sundering Strikes, but I’m addicted to the range bonus.

lol. an army of us in speedos