Guild Wars 2

X T D.6458:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

X T D.6458:

I will remind the people who play thief and mesmer, that Stealth is NOT a profession mechanic. It is a game effect/mechanic.

Stealth is incredibly broken, and needs to be finally brought into line. Whether you like it or think it is useful is irrelevant, it is broken and unbalanced plain and simply.

Bahahaha Shadow Arts and All the Thief Weapons having Stealth attacks beg to differ…..

I mean it’s not like Thief has different mehanics while Stealthed or has their class Directly influenced while Stealthed Like Thief, but yes on the other 8 classes It is not a class mechanic per say.

The profession mechanic for thieves is Stealing. Poor profession balancing using broken mechanics is not the same thing as saying its part of the class.

Classes have more than one mechanic, not all mechanics are tied to the F skills.

So explain how Stealth Attacks aren’t a Class Mechanic? They are Unique to the Thief Class and they are on every single Weapon, then there is the Traitline that all it does is modify Stealth….. sounds like a class mechanic.

X T D.6458:

I will remind the people who play thief and mesmer, that Stealth is NOT a profession mechanic. It is a game effect/mechanic.

Stealth is incredibly broken, and needs to be finally brought into line. Whether you like it or think it is useful is irrelevant, it is broken and unbalanced plain and simply.

Bahahaha Shadow Arts and All the Thief Weapons having Stealth attacks beg to differ…..

I mean it’s not like Thief has different mehanics while Stealthed or has their class Directly influenced while Stealthed Like Thief, but yes on the other 8 classes It is not a class mechanic per say.

Bryon.7648:

Its nice that they left out the marauder and valkyire gear out of the pvp vendors, i mean you would think you would be able to gear your self in WvW gear by doing WvW.

Not going to bother with wvw at this point, i already invested all of my gold into a build some one said would work but now that some is taking 90% of my hp with a single hit with it while i am unable to do any damage with it all.

Marauder is a HoT stat no HoT stats are in the WvW vendor, and there are quite a few Core stats not in WvW vendor

Really it all depends on your playstyle in the end, for newer players it’s normally best to have the more defensive options then whittle it down as you get more comfortable stat/traiwise, or you can do the exact opposite which is go for pure Offensive and learn that way but expect to be killed a lot, but on that note you can learn to delete people fast normally before they can react if they are alone!

It all depends on what you think you need, right now I run 3 pieces of Marauder on the shoulders gloves boots and the rest Berserker, most this isn’t enough Vitality but for what I use it for I do fine.

You can even do full Marauder armor and full zerker trinkets or vice versa.

You will be vey Squishy you can easily be one shot with those stats.

You will Want to get Marauder/Berserker mix or if you can’t go Berserker/Valkyrie mix.

Depending on your play style will determine how much of each you will need, now the more popular Weaponset for Thief is D/P with SB of set, since you are Core I would suggest running that and using the Traitlines Deadly Arts 2/2/2 or 3, Trickery 3/1 or 2/2, and Shadow Arts 3/2/2.

Now moving on To Utilities the best Core thief heal is hands down Withdraw it provides instant cast Low CD Immob break and is an Evade, now you can run Trickster from Trickery in place of Bountiful Theft, this further reduces Withdraw’s CD and gives it a random Condi clear on top of the Condi clears it already applies

You will more than likely want Shadowstep for a Stun break and then my personal favorites for Core builds Blinding Powder, Signet of Agility and the Elite Basilisk Venom.

Blinding powder is great for Shadow Arts giving on demand instant stealth which clears Condis its down side is you have only one Stun break, next with Signet of agility it provides with two additional dodges as well as a Condi clear (very negligible) as well as the passive increasing your Crit Chance.

Onto playstyle with this build, you will mostly be jumping in and out of stealth as needed when revealed is not on you, you can try for Backstab a or just use Shadowshot from stealth, you can also use Black Powder(pistol 5 ) on top of your target for pulsing Blinds, you want to use stealth to constantly re position without the enemy knowing where you are moving to, normally don’t open with astral since it provides a decent heal and is better used as a dedicated Interrupt.

Malicious Reprisal is good for an all around trait no matter the situation especially in the Block spam Meta, 4-5 classes most often taken have their Meta Build be able to Chain/spam blocks, so there is always value.

Iirc Vicious Laceration Stacks perstist on weapon swap until timer expires, so it’s not always a complete waste just not optimal in all situations(it seems to be relic of when Revenant wasn’t supposed to have Two weapons).

Assassin’s Presence i believe to be better than Nefarious Momentum, since Revs swap legends so frequently.

It’s a toss up for Assassins Annihilation and Swift Termination, I say that because it depends on what you as a player needs due to your play style.

My choice when tuning Devastation are Vicious Lacerations, Assassin’s Presence, and Swift Termination, those are chosen to setup as much Burst as I can not for more drawn out fights.

Hoochieman.3107:

Blaque,

I have yet to have someone compare a ‘viable’ build in WvW that is nonexistent in sPvP, whether the meta or not. The amulet system would allow you to swap stats on the fly versus only being able to use what you own. Let’s say you play a ‘theory-crafted’ Valkyrie thief with Exuberance runes and Furious Sharpening Stones in WvW currently…guess what? That build will still be viable post-amulet system.

You missed the part about fine tuning the build, there arealot of builds in WvW that rely on min maxing stats to achieve the number they need in certain combinations so there is no wasted stat. That’s why there is more viable build diversity in WvW than in sPvP.

The only reason sPvP has the one stat Amulet system was because the Devs stated they were too lazy to balance based on different stat combinations, Beofee they swapped sPvP to the one stat Amulet their was more build diversity( here’s a fun fact sPvP used to have a system with 3 distinct items that you could change for stat combos)

If you want a gamemode that costs nothing for gear and has static Amulet builds guess what they have that gamemode for you it’s called sPvP. A lot of players like being able to min max and make their own builds in WvW and that’s great with the current setup.

Hoochieman.3107:

Hey Yuffi, thanks for the reply.

I would 100% agree that WvW is kind of a sandbox or playground to test out builds. I can’t say that that would go away with an amulet system. Can you elaborate more on why it would stifle creativity? To me the creativity you’re describing only comes from the min/maxing of sustain stats.

Amulet systems makes it so you can only have one stat option which stifles creativity and fine tuning of builds, look at WvW and the plethora of viable builds running around, now look at sPvP.

Also there is no gear treadmill, once you get at least one set of Ascended it is extremely cheap to change the stats and so on or you can craft multiple Ascended sets.

Also If you are theory crafting builds and mix and matching sets Exotics are still extremely viable, it’s only 5% stat losses, in stats between the two excluding weapons.
And if you want HoT stats then it’s always cheaper to convert Stats on Ascended.

A gear treadmill is a never ending replacement of gear for the stronger stats, look at wow every time new content drops the Stats of all new armor is increased forcing players to keep grinding gear, something that is non existent in GW2 it ends at Ascended/Legendary, nothing has higher stats, and for the foreseeable nothing will.

Dawdler.8521:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Jeknar.6184:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The funniest thing is Scrappers and Druids get better mobility while in Stealth more so than Thief (thief just maintains some of their mobility in stealth, because a lot of their mobility is tied to the same resource as their stealth).

Druid, yeah. Scrapper? Absolutely not… Scrapper cannot keep up with Druid/Thief in mobility.

Uhm a Scrapper activating Stealth Gyro gains Superspeed… which wait for it…. increases mobility while stealth…. Queue minds blowing…. anywhere in my original post sty that Scrapper had more overall mobility than Druid and Thief? Nope I don’t think I did, I solely stated that their mobility increases with stealth on those two classes…

You have never played Scrapper I see.

You only gain superspeed when destroying a gyro if final salvo is traited. The stealth gyro is no different. Few actually trait that because they use power hammer builds. Mass momentum hammer trait conflict with rapid regen, which you want if you want to get good use of final salvo. So most will pick adaptive armor instead and thus never achieve superspeed on gyro death.

So you are completely incorrect. Scrapper has no speed boost on stealth whatsoever.

Hmm you are right I don’t play Scrapper, then I misread the trait. Never mind on the Scrapper gaining movement speed with the Stealth Gyro.

Justine.6351:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Why do you all still humor him? When he once again loses the argument he is just going to delete the thread again.

Same reason I gank tryhards at their nnc.
Bordism.

^this , plus it’s fun to have “logical discussions”

ich.7086:

My posts have been removed
Well
Tl;DR :
the mesmer ran pure class (no defensives traits) and used 3 shatters + 2 utilies (both of them are stunbreak) + elite + 2 skills on GS + 1 skill en sw/sh so about half of his skill bar to do that damage that CAN be countered by proper battlefield awareness/dodging/build (OP was playing druid so i suggest the Protective Ward trait which would have cut the damage taken from shatter from an half and the rest by about 25%)
the thief wasn’t pure glass since he ran accro (i suspect a d/p staff thief) and the 10k damage on the backstab make me think more of a marauder/valky than a full zerker BUT the fight lasted for about 2,75 seconds (2PI proc = 2s delay + dodge delay = 0,75s) where you see apart the initial spike, that OP only took AA and the well know and should be dodged bound + steal combo without defending himself (we see no dodge nor OP went to shroud) and IN a teamfight so nobody helped him (and nobody on the opposite team tried to assist the thief but that’s an another question) so that’s clearly a L2P situation.

Then the questions by OP :
1) Yoy say it’s too high but we don’t have your limit. What is too high ? 10k dps (the thief exemple) seems fine for me but that’s just me. What is your number (let’s say peak damage on 1second on a 2,7k armor target) ?
2) I do think that since people have managed to deal with stealth since launch with battlefield awareness + proper cooldown rotations (aka stealth has a counterplay) and that stealth costs ressources (cooldowns for mesmer/druid/engie and initiative or cooldown for thief), that stealth is fine. I’m more annoyed by stealth camping than an constant in/out with pressure.
3) I still don’t know what “checks and balances” of non-thief classess are so i can’t respond. But thief main damage is AA, spamming anything else (even vault / apart unload or cluster bomb) result in lower dps. The devs designed the weapon skills to prevent the equation initiative = damage but initative = burst (HeartSeeker/Vault) or utility (HeadShot/Dust Strike) or defense (BlackPowder/Debilitating Arc). But please elaborate.
4) It’s 1 & 2 combined so i don’t have anything else to say.
5) A quick skill have a quick animation, if a skill has a 0,25s cast time the animation should take 0,25s (+ aftercast). The very existence of multi-skill burst is especially that skills used are instant or very low cast time so they will all have quick or instant animations. You are basicly asking to remove quick cast skill ? Or you want better tell on the same span of time ? Because you got 0,25s to react whatever the tell is the right hand going up or the whole body glowing red (exemples just made up).

As a general thought, you posted 2 facts (damage you took) and then you say : burst is a problem, stealth is a problem. That’s not how balancing works. Balance is achieved when using something can be countered by the use of something that is on the same scall of availability. It’s not because you don’t use the counter that the first thing is unbalanced.

Question how was the Thief running Acro? I would love your insight into that since there is absolutely nothing in Acro that would show in the combat log. Unless you are basing that off of the lack of Mug in the Combat Log which can be explained a few ways, Mug damage can be “obstructed” by air yet still apply Sleight of Hand as weird as that sounds. But

I have proven how it achieved the numbers in the screenshot to do that amount of damage would require Deadly Arts, Trickery and Daredevil and we know for a fact Daredevil was used due to Bound in the combat log.

Now if he was running Valk Berserker I am very impressed since the Thief would be giving up a lot of Crit Chance yet based on the Screenshot the Thief was dealing a lot of Crits in high succession which is why I based on a pure Berserker build and on the equation I posted above if yo remove the one 1.1 modifier from Exposed Weakness the Damage at Max weapon damage Drops significantly lower down to 9,596.22 which which is a 790 damage drop in a maxed out Crit.

Swagger.1459:

Svarty.8019:

Swagger.1459:

2. Stealth is too advantageous and too forgiving and too unbalanced.

• Stealth has never been implemented well in any game ever

• Judging by alterations made since release, I believe it’s far too late for Anet to make alterations to key class mechanics

• Our only option is to hope that future games either have zero stealth or a radically improved version

Well, city of heroes had some great stealth and counter stealth designs. You can check those out in a different thread I posted.

It’s never too late. Considering “things” are starting to be fiddled with in Spvp, there is no reason why wvw can’t be placed under the microscope either. In case you missed this recent post by Gaile…

“Gaile Gray.6029:

A message from the PvP Team:

Hey all,

We have a number of skill splits (and some global changes) that will be accompanying the launch of Season 5 next week. Read on to see what’s in store for December 13.

Over the past few releases the PvP team has been working closely with the Skills team to implement some PvP-only skill splits. Moving forward the PvP team will have more opportunity to make these skill splits as we see fit. It’s important to understand that skill splits should not change the core functionality of a skill. Players should be able to use a skill in PvE and have it do relatively the same thing in PvP, though it may be more or less effective depending on the game mode. This means that when we are looking to split out a skill, the changes are limited to the following areas:

Recharge
Damage multipliers
Healing multipliers
Number of conditions/boons applied
Duration of conditions/boons applied
Skill cost (energy and initiative)

A lot can be done with these knobs, but there still will be cases where we identify a problem skill or trait that we feel cannot be addressed without a functional change. In these cases, we are continuing to work closely with the Skills team to find a solution that makes the most sense as a global change.

Now on to the changes! Note that all changes listed are global changes except for those that are designated as “PvP only.”

Seems you missed a key part of that message you keep touting. And does it state anywhere in there that they are doing redesigns? No, no it does not.

Again if you want a gamemode that has no Build diversity and limited stats then play sPvP, where you get all that you asked for.

And if they redesign stealth they will have to redesign at a minimum two classes and tweak another two that have access to stealth but not being reliant upon it, which is more work than anything previously Anet has shown they would ever do. And if they change Stealth based on your suggestions I have seen touted then what is the compensation since stealth was designed with the two main classes having access to it instead of having all the passives and sustain that other classes got instead. Are they to buff other defensive options for those two classes or are they to nerf the overbearing sustain and passsive defense of the other classes?

See there is a lot more work involved besides the two classes being complained about by OP, since nothing in this game is in a vacuum it is all relative to something else in game.

And still no answer for the question I posed to you Swagger? I thought this thread was all about the spirit of debate, discussion and objectivity?

@ Swagger why don’t you answer my question instead of trying to kite it? Here I’ll pose it again.

Why should High risk builds that slot no defensive stats not be rewarded with high damage, and why do you think they should deal the same numbers as bunkers?

and it is only your opinion that the numbers break away from base design since no statement as such has ever been given by Anet in regards to WvW. And again you said all the numbers are irrelevant so the numbers in your screenshot are irrelevant an should be removed since they detract from the message of your post. And you shouldn’t talk about numbers “breaking away from base” since again as you stated the numbers are irrelevant.

And you seem to be targeting Thief, Mesmer and stealth only and not any other class so your main gripe is those two classes, while other classes like Druid also can Stealth Burst restealth quite as effectively, while also maintain range.

And then theirs the fact that you are going on about stealth which is a defensive mechanic and offensive mechanic that relies on active play while ignoring the fact that classes can do bigger Burst while Invuln, Proc by passive Invuln or while having very impactful passive sustain. (These are all relevant to the discussion since the game isn’t a Vacuum)

So all I am seeing is a Post about having difficulty fighting those two classes.

TL:DR
Answer the question posed since your want th spirit of a good discussion.

if Anet starts looking at Nerfing burst damage they better equally nerf Sustain and Defensive stats, if they start nerfing Classes defensive mechanics like Stealth they need to either compensate(which is the worst idea)or nerf every other classes defensive mechanics( which is the better idea)

HoT introduced too much on every class that gave them too many defensive options its not just ermergherd Stealth and ermergherd burst.

Ps why don’t you want to talk about the numbers? Since to take an objective stance on the subject and the “proofs” provided in OP you have to look at how those damage numbers were achieved against your Characters. I "proved"how it was achieved by one class which sacrifices a lot to do it, it’s not like that Build was running around 2700 Armor and 25.5k health doing that amount of damage, which is a fair trade off.

Again objectivity is key no need for opinions let’s stick to the facts.

Swagger.1459:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Swagger.1459:

A few things….

Snip!

Again your OP lack relevant data either from you wanting to keep it obscure or for other reasons so I had to use “data” from the other post. I laid out the facts to achieve the numbers in one of your screenshots regarding the thief damage.

It seems like you just want Berserker geared builds to do similar damage to bunker builds, the one measly defensive stat Armor at a relatively low number like 2700 vs Base Power of 2806 being 106 more and having 7 other damage modifiers increasing the disparity even further, so again if you want an Objective discussion go for it.

I have laid out how the Thief was able to achieve that damage against your reaper now try to find out why a Build that has no Defensive stats and has every stat and boost go into increasing damage shouldn’t do damage vs someone with only 2700 armor?

Time for you to take an objective stance lay out the numbers, and your reasoning.

The “facts” as of right now as per Swagger.
Reaper with 25.5k HP, 1700 Toughness and 2700 Armor.
Was dealt 10,386 damage by a Thief back stab followed up by other attacks.

These below inferred facts are from reverse engineering Swaggers provide “facts”(10,386 damage vs 2700 armor)

Full Berserker Thief with 12k HP, 1000 Toughness, 2118 Armor, 2806 Power(using full Bloodlust stack), 228.07% Crit Damage and 58.33% Crit Chance. Maximizing on 5 non stat damage modifiers Seaweed Salad, Exposed Weakness, Lead Attacks, Bounding Dodger and Havoc Mastery.

Remember objectivity is key here and so is context.

Also note the screenshots posted by other players so far highlight that multiple classes have ways to do high burst damage like DeceiverX’ reaper dealing 12k in a single hit.

If need be I will collect other relevant screenshots per class to highlight such, if need be will upload them in similar style as the OP to stick with spirit of the thread!

Read my previous post.

Focus on the words of the post because you are hung up on the screens. Some posters before were able to do that so I was hoping by now you would have caught on.

Also, you seem to forget I already addressed this stuff… “Also note the screenshots posted by other players”… My number 1 covered that and applies to all professions. The word individual also means like solo, without like team buffs and stuff.

Would it be more helpful if I were to remove the screens so things are more understandable?

Edit… This thread was not about “maths”, it was about larger “stuffs”, so save your numbers for an appropriate thread… You’ll clearly know a math related discussion thread if I brought one up, but this is not that type of thread.

again you fail to see, my question after I provided context for you, why should a Spec solely built for damage should do as much damage as a bunker?

The facts to deal anywhere near one of your screenshots the Thief would have to forgo all defensive stats for pure offensive stats, to achieve that burst.

So the question is why should that Thief that has less than half your health, 600 less toughness and has a higher power stat than your reapers armor stat, so again why shouldn’t a build built solely for damage and forgos all defensive stats deal the same damage as a bunker? Since that seems to be your goal.

Again all classes can build for burst damage or pure defensive, the burst should clearly do a lot of damage since you know it take damage stats, it’s not a hard concept to understand.

Anyone Let me know if I need to clarify any of this.

Again I laid out the numbers try to refute them if you must but they go off of your “facts” provided. A pure glass thief with no defensive stats ganked you.

Building for pure damage does high burst and no defensive stats , building for pure defense negates high burst and has very little offensive stats(except Condi builds), building down the middle gives average of each.

#highriskhighreward

OP says the math is irrelevant so that means the damage in the screenshot is irrelevant, so everyone can disregard the whole thread as being irrelevant everything is fine.

Op if you want a gamemode that kills/limits build diversity and limits all stat pools then you are in luck they have just the thing for you, it’s called sPvP!

Swagger.1459:

A few things….

The mods were fully aware that the thread devolved into non-constructive discussion.

Instead of making a bunch of reports (sent a few, though), I chose to remake the thread…

It’s very clear that some commenters are not fully absorbing the entire post. It’s probably a good idea to let the words sink in a bit before y’all jump the gun and lay out assumptions.

I’m fully aware how to play, let’s not assume issues do not exist in wvw or the game in general. And let’s not pretend there has been a ton a proper review and balancing throughout the game… We need not look farther than the recent (after 4 years) skill splits happening in spvp to understand how far behind the dev team is on these matters.

Some additional critical thinking and rational posting will be best for the thread, so keep it on topic and clean.

Thanks!

Again your OP lack relevant data either from you wanting to keep it obscure or for other reasons so I had to use “data” from the other post. I laid out the facts to achieve the numbers in one of your screenshots regarding the thief damage.

It seems like you just want Berserker geared builds to do similar damage to bunker builds, the one measly defensive stat Armor at a relatively low number like 2700 vs Base Power of 2806 being 106 more and having 7 other damage modifiers increasing the disparity even further, so again if you want an Objective discussion go for it.

I have laid out how the Thief was able to achieve that damage against your reaper now try to find out why a Build that has no Defensive stats and has every stat and boost go into increasing damage shouldn’t do damage vs someone with only 2700 armor?

Time for you to take an objective stance lay out the numbers, and your reasoning.

The “facts” as of right now as per Swagger.
Reaper with 25.5k HP, 1700 Toughness and 2700 Armor.
Was dealt 10,386 damage by a Thief back stab followed up by other attacks.

These below inferred facts are from reverse engineering Swaggers provide “facts”(10,386 damage vs 2700 armor)

Full Berserker w/Scholar Thief with 12k HP, 1000 Toughness, 2118 Armor, 2806 Power(using full Bloodlust stack), 228.07% Crit Damage and 58.33% Crit Chance. Maximizing on 6 non stat damage modifiers Seaweed Salad, Exposed Weakness, Lead Attacks, Bounding Dodger, Havoc Mastery and last but not least Scholar Runes.

Remember objectivity is key here and so is context.

Also note the screenshots posted by other players so far highlight that multiple classes have ways to do high burst damage like DeceiverX’ reaper dealing 12k in a single hit.

If need be I will collect other relevant screenshots per class to highlight such, if need be will upload them in similar style as the OP to stick with spirit of the thread!

Ok I’ll bite,

To be as objective as possible.

are we going of of your claimed 2700 Armor on your Reaper still? Or are you not gonna provide that info in the OP again?

Need a little context for those damage numbers to see how they were achieved.

Now let’s nit pick your Thief Screen shot in the OP shall we back on topic?
Using this build

So best case Scenario max everything from a Solo Thief.
—-——————HM-Sc-SS-EW-BD-LA Crit D
((1030*2806*2.4)1.07*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.15*2.2807)/2700=10,555.84222149789

Now let’s nit pick this equation, that is max weapon damage, we have 2806 power and 228.07 Crit Damage from Full Berserker gear w/ Scholar Runes and 25 stack of Bloodlust, Deadly Arts for Exposed Weakness 10% damage, Trickery for Lead Attacks up to 15% damage increase from Ini use and Preparedness for more Initiative, and Daredevil running Havoc Mastery for 7% damage increase and Bound for 10% damage increase. Now for the other modifiers you receive 10% for having 90% health or more from Scholar Runes, and 10% damage while Moving from Seaweed Salad.

So again we have 2806 power with 7 damage modifiers in the form of 1.07,1.1, 1.1, 1.1, 1.1,1.15 and 2.2807 for a grand total of 4.108852216535 which is equivalent to 411% damage increase.

This build also only has 12k HP, 1000 Toughness and 2118 Armor. Since all stats and boost go directly into damage and nothing else.

Now let’s look at the numbers that offset this, your Reapers Armor at as you say 2700 Armor.

Now first thing we notice the Power is already 106 more power than you have Armor, so the base power will outweighs your defensive stat, then you take a look at all 7 other Offensive stat increases, now we have 8 Offensive damage increasers against your one stat of 2700.

This only reflects the numbers and build not include the setup/positioning /prep required to land the hit.

So just on those facts alone yes that one attack with all those conditions being met that highly outweigh your one defensive stat should do that high damage since the build is designed to do 411% damage over base on all of its attacks while having no defensive stats.

All they need to do is remove all high offensive and high defensive capabilities from the same skills, or kitten them like Blurred Frenzy or Pistol Whip no one really complains about those skills because they do mediocre damage are rooted with large precast and after cast in regards to PW I don’t believe Blurred Frenzy hasn’t much of a precast. But those skills sacrifice and make the user vulnerable while skills like Vault and pre-nerf SoTM did not, then they could also take it a step further that if you have any invuln style affect that you can deal/apply damage while under said affect. The balance in this game is a joke, I can only wish for a complete overhaul that will never come.

There is too much sustain and too much damage on top of AoE and Cc spam and passives that due nothing to promote skillful gameplay.

Jeknar.6184:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The funniest thing is Scrappers and Druids get better mobility while in Stealth more so than Thief (thief just maintains some of their mobility in stealth, because a lot of their mobility is tied to the same resource as their stealth).

Druid, yeah. Scrapper? Absolutely not… Scrapper cannot keep up with Druid/Thief in mobility.

Uhm a Scrapper activating Stealth Gyro gains Superspeed… which wait for it…. increases mobility while stealth…. Queue minds blowing…. anywhere in my original post say that Scrapper had more overall mobility than Druid and Thief? Nope I don’t think I did, I solely stated that their mobility increases with stealth on those two classes…

Edited and struck through my my mistake, misread the trait for Scrapper. Point still stands for the Druid though.

mtpelion.4562:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

And this is the embodiment of what’s wrong with the game.

People wanting rewards for Losing.

Obviously the poorly designed content isn’t the problem. Blame the customer!

You obviously missed the entire point of the post you quoted if that’s your takeaway.

Let’s see it’s the most balanced thing in game…. perfect skill balance, no class has any advantages vs any other it all comes down to coordination and player skill.

The players leaving match and afking isn’t a design flaw of Anet it’s a flaw of players.

So you asking for rewards for losing is just hilarious, and exemplifies what is wrong with the player base of the game.

Baldrick.8967:

I take any replies from a thief main with a pinch of salt…

Nothing wrong with having trailbrazers and dire existing, as well as several other types.

The issue is a lack of balance, and in particular the ease of use of stealth and the huge mobility whilst in use.

Most other games have a balance or trade off for being in ‘stealth’. This game has none, making it entirely in the thief’s favour.

Other issues on balance are continual block, invuln to name but two, not to mention dodging ad infinitum whilst your one decent damage skill on a huge cooldown is completely wasted.. Nothing should make it impossible to land damage on a target, but should cause damage mitigation instead.

There are so many balance issues that need working on. But a bit like the fabled ‘wvw team’ it seems to have disappeared into the mists.

The funniest thing is Scrappers and Druids get better mobility while in Stealth more so than Thief (thief just maintains some of their mobility in stealth, because a lot of their mobility is tied to the same resource as their stealth).

LehmD.4938:

but the mmr displayed was the same for both accounts so why are my alt accs match ups easier+ more rewarding

It’s called Volatility, the less you play on one account the higher the volatility is, no two accounts are the exact same.

shion.2084:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

shion.2084:

Evan,
How is it possible that in a duo Queue playing several games consecutively, I can lose more rating on losses than my partner and gain less when we both win? As I understand the algorithm that should not be possible. If I’m more volatile I should both gain and lose more?

Simple your Duo Queue partner is lower Mmr than you…. not to also factor in any volatility differences.

Yes but shouldn’t my probability to win a match be based on my teams average MMR vs. my opposing team’s average MMR? We all have the same chance to win, my chance to win on a team is no greater than my partners????

It’s your Skill rating vs the opposing teams Skill rating. Not the averages of both that are factored, as far as I can tell. And then after that you have to factor in Volatility which will be different for everyone/

shion.2084:

Evan,
How is it possible that in a duo Queue playing several games consecutively, I can lose more rating on losses than my partner and gain less when we both win? As I understand the algorithm that should not be possible. If I’m more volatile I should both gain and lose more?

Simple your Duo Queue partner is lower Mmr than you…. not to also factor in any volatility differences.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm says he plays engie but I all I saw last night was a Thief always on the ground every two seconds. And the fact he was in gold last night not at the cusp of Bronze…

I think you got the wrong player in mind mate.

Nope, you were on your Thief Penguin, Account Name Smooth Penguin.5294. Last match I played with you on the map was Battle of Kyhlo.
Sorry it was Thursday night so the 19th

Hmm says he plays engie but I all I saw last night was a Thief always on the ground every two seconds. And the fact he was in gold last night not at the cusp of Bronze…

megilandil.7506:

Hanth.2978:

megilandil.7506:

Hanth.2978:

So much salt in these responses! Honestly guys there is nothing to prove or disprove. He posted his stats and also streamed every match. Please don’t make claims about what he did or did not do when he has video to back it up, it just makes you look stupid. It’s hard to believe but to get to legendary we have to carry through not just bronze and silver but also gold and platinum. I think some people are just super salty that they cannot do it.

If us as single players are good enough to be legendary then we will be and if not then we have a lot of work to do.

salt is cuz those entitled players dennie the dificulties of average joes produced by a dev recognized faulty matchmaker saying if they can everyone can

I understand what you are saying but I also watched his streams. Not everyone can win a 1v2 or prevent cap in a 1v3 but some can. There are many legendary players streaming and two things that I have noticed with all of them is they can 1. win the 1v2’s and 1v3’s and 2. always predict how players will react to what’s happening on the map. You are right the average players does face difficulties but being legendary is not for the average player.

this is not about reaching legendary, it is about jumping the fence placed in bronze/low silver that someones called “mmr hell”

And again a lot of players have done just that…. but right I forgot people in this thread say that doesn’t count….

Just a head up of you have over 450 Proofs of Heroics you can buy Leadership Runes from WvW.

@Fay

I believe it to be a combination of both UC and the Superspeed on the Illusions, I have also seen it happen with other movement skills like Ancestrals Grace through them.

@apharma

I can try to get a video of it (no promises 6 year old Graphics card problems), I mainly only see it with UC, I am not stating it’s game breaking just highly annoying, I don’t depend on my Daredevil’ Dodges to explode the clones any more, I don’t have the issue whenever I am playing Core Thief which is more what I have been playing lately in WvW and PvP.

Fay.2357:

BeepBoopBop.5403:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

I don’t think mes are broken, only things i would changes is
- CS shouldn’t reset elites. Maybe allow cs reduce CD on elite but not complete reset
- clones really should stop running at light speed. I understand they wanted to stop kiting of the shatters however issue is not that shatters became undodgable. If you dodge into shatter, the clones assume you didn’t dodge but moved and instead of stopping for shatter actually continue to chase you. Idc what they do it but shatters should be consistent so you have chance to dodge them instead of eating full condi crap despite dodging into shatter.

The problem with your second point is that HoT brought a lot of movement speed for everyone so shatters without superspeed simply don’t hit anymore unless detonated instantly at 0 range.

Swiftness might make them able to hit but there’s still the problem of people can just run and kite the shatters easily assuming moderate distance to the clones. It doesn’t bode well for new elite specs though, there’s nothing more depressing than seeing shatters on base mesmer chasing after someone with swiftness and never being able to catch them.

1 boon shutting down a class mechanic and needing a trait to counter.

I understand the issue but shatters ignoring dodges is not OK. Imagine all my attacks would land on your regardless what you did. This is how it is fighting mes atm.
They need to fix it somehow, maybe make clones actually register the dodge better instead of ignoring it….

I haven’t had this problem, sure I’ve dodged and got hit by a clone but I put that down to I dodged too soon or too late and one hit me. I’m not saying it’s not happening only that I haven’t seen it happen and only really heard of this from you and after 10 pages of bugs forum no mention of it nor have I seen a post in the mesmer subforum.

If someone has a video of clones hitting through dodges it would help figuring out what’s happening at least for the devs. I have no problems with it being fixed if it is happening though because that’s obviously not the way it should work, you should be able to dodge all attacks.

You’re misunderstanding. It doesn’t hit through dodges. It just waits till your dodge is over then hits you after.

This only happens if you dodge away from the clones. If you dodge through the path of the clones they’ll explode on you as you dodge them. This is how people have known to properly dodge shatters since the launch of GW2.

It happens even if you dodge into them, I mainly see it happen that way when running Thief With UC something about it causes the clones to not explode until after the dodge ends. I have seen it in very rare cases without UC but those are far and few in between.

Ithilwen.1529:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ithilwen.1529:

The OP’s action demonstrates that “smurfing” works.

It doesn’t logically relate to “elo hell” or related terms.

To demonstrate the non existence of “elo hell” you’d need to take a player of suitable skill level and have them break through the alleged barrier. Even then, it would be only anecdotal evidence.

On that basis, the OP is incorrect.

So basically if people provide proof it doesn’t matter “Elo/Mmr Hell” exists. And define “suitable skill level” would love to know what you believe suitable Skill level means!

By “suitable skill level,” I mean skills appropriate to the tier in which the “elo hell” is said to exist.

In other words; It’s not noteworthy for an esl level player to rise out of bronze. They are clearly undermatched. We expect them to rise whether they get favorable matches or not.

On the other hand, a bronze level player breaking an “elo hell” barrier and passing into silver would be noteworthy. Since we would generally not expect them to be able to pass through the barrier.

The OP rose through the ranks as we would have expected. That demonstrates that the strategy of “smurfing” is viable.

It does not relate to the existance or non existance of “elo hell” because it’s not a suitable case for experiment.

But that isn’t Elo hell then that is the tier that player belongs in if they are truly a Bronze tier player so of course they would have a harder time to get out of it, the people claiming of Elo Hell are stating they deserve to be higher and are misplaced well below their level and can’t get out of Bronze.

So even in your example that isn’t the system working bad but doing its job of having the appropriate tier players placed properly and the higher they get to the next tier they will find it more difficult till they improve and then become skilled appropriately to the next tier.

So To stay on topic to the OP and the other players claiming that no matter the players skill levels if they get placed in Bronze they won’t be able to break free and make it to their proper placement. Your example is not even the same issue as what was brought up by the people complaining of the Elo Hell

Ithilwen.1529:

The OP’s action demonstrates that “smurfing” works.

It doesn’t logically relate to “elo hell” or related terms.

To demonstrate the non existence of “elo hell” you’d need to take a player of suitable skill level and have them break through the alleged barrier. Even then, it would be only anecdotal evidence.

On that basis, the OP is incorrect.

So basically if people provide proof it doesn’t matter “Elo/Mmr Hell” exists. And define “suitable skill level” would love to know what you believe suitable Skill level means!

Cap Ruins and supply camps, cap Sentries, escort supply dolyaks and so on you don’t have to interact with a single enemy player if you choose not too in most cases.

Also of Note in the games lore Player characters are never killled they are only knocked unconscious.

“Death and resurrection were renamed to “defeat” and “revival” to match lore, as resurrections are no longer possible as easily as 250 years ago before the Human Gods ceased their direct interaction with Tyria. Because of this, defeated players are never considered to be dead in lore."

megilandil.7506:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Soothsayer.9206:

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

Snip

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones.

Again players said that no one could climb to where they belong if they get placed lower in Bronze, then those same players changed their rhetoric to only pro players can do it, but other players have done the climb as well that aren’t pro-League level players ( I did the climb I am at best a mid to high gold player) those same players claiming no one can do the climb to get to their proper rating dismiss or don’t acknowledge those players testimonies.

So which is it? Can players that start low get placed where they are supposed to be or can’t they? There is overwhelming proof showing players can, and not so much proof stating they can’t.

People just don’t want to face the reality they aren’t as good as they thought they were because zomg “I got Legend s1-s4”.

No
If you are dropped too far from your true rank you have the skills to scape, but if you fall only a few steeps your skill advantage is not so great to make the game and you have to rely on a fair mm that lets you gain a bit more of 55-60% to slow climbing.
and there how everyone i post my case:
Im a PvX player i play pvp on a regular basis 3-4 match a day on seasons a bit more but not much more, after placements i get on high gold t2(higher than i think i belong, bouncing in silver tiers)after this i get droped to bronze 2 with a constant loss streak of 30% w-70% l now i get stabilized my wind ratio in bronze / silver and today in evening i played 2 games in the firts we lost 500-300 in the second we win 500-25 and…. 6 of players repeated in the two games in firts we are one ranger one necro(that after talking about start split they go to home that i called for me and all the match do the same home,killed, home… no matter if home are ours or not) a warrior gs/shotgun (1,1,1,1,1) my guardian and another guy, in other team there was a duo, second game in my team only me and ranger of the anterior game and the other team the duo and the war and necro of last game (in this the same necro come to our close not going to take first their home that remains unclaimed and all match the same: dead, our home, dead… )
you think a mid/ low player like me or the other druid guy can carry(i dislike this word) a team with these two clueles players? the answer is not, we can only trust in fair matchmaker and slow climbing to the place

Again I was in Bronze, I am now in mid Gold (stopped playing so ranking is decayed) I have dropped from mid Gold to High Silver multiple times and then climbed back to to mid Gold for the majority of my matches played, so you are saying I should not have been able to progress at all to get to mid Gold where I plateaued matched with similar skilled players, I am not any where near pro level players skill yet I made the climb, you say that that is impossible, since I should not have climbed through Silver or Low Gold by your own statement.

Again I am not the only person to do this, a lot others have as well. Again the statement players have made were that no one could make the climb to get to where they should be that no one can carry matches, those were Provence wrong, then those same players stated only pros could do it again they were proven wrong.

So again I ask which is it can players that are placed wrong not climb to their actual rating or can they?

Soothsayer.9206:

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

The fact that the OP went from bronze to legendary is reflective of the fact that he took advantage of players that are inexperienced and not even remotely as skilled as he is. it debunks nothing.

What is with this “He took advantage of inexperienced players” argument. From what I saw, people on the forums felt like they were trapped in a lower division than they deserve to be in and blame the system. Other players come in telling them that it is just the division they are supposed to be in and that if they were better they would move up. Then those disgruntled players were all like, “Oh yeah? Let’s see one of you pro players start off in bronze and try to climb out!”

So then nothelseth is all like, “Ok, I will!” And he streams his results and climbs all the way from bronze to legend. Now all those disgruntled players, having been the ones that issued the challenge in the first place, are all like “Wow, you’re a jerk for taking advantage of those poor noobs” and “Oh you’re just trying to feed your ego” or my favorite, “Well that doesn’t prove anything cause you’re a pro player.”

Like WTF people!? He did this project at the request of players here on the forums to show that you will eventually climb to where you belong. There have even been other players climb from bronze to gold despite not being pros. Yet you guys are refusing the evidence provided because it goes against what you believe, and you have nothing, NOTHING AT ALL, to support your complaints other than personal opinions!

Am I missing something here?

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones.

Again players said that no one could climb to where they belong if they get placed lower in Bronze, then those same players changed their rhetoric to only pro players can do it, but other players have done the climb as well that aren’t pro-League level players ( I did the climb I am at best a mid to high gold player) those same players claiming no one can do the climb to get to their proper rating dismiss or don’t acknowledge those players testimonies.

So which is it? Can players that start low get placed where they are supposed to be or can’t they? There is overwhelming proof showing players can, and not so much proof stating they can’t.

People just don’t want to face the reality they aren’t as good as they thought they were because zomg “I got Legend s1-s4”.

Faux Play.6104:

BloodriverTim.2031:

This is a bad representation of the how the system works. If he played a good number of games in bronze, then tried to climb, it would show what most users complain about. His mmr was still volatile enough to have the system pull him out of bronze, but if he got a 50% win rate for say, 30 games in bronze and then tried to climb, he would have a much more difficult time of it.

Not true. I was able to climb from bronze to gold on my main. I did not get more than 18 gain on any single win. Most were in the 10 to 13 range. I don’t belong in plat/legend so I will continue to hover around in gold. Average players can get where they belong as well.

It’s not worth trying to use logic and reason, the players whining about mmr hell are solely under the belief that they are better than they are, and that anyone besides a pro that places where they belong were carried by luck, and not by the system working properly.

Thief Commander(essentially Ninja Nurse), use full Nomads with Mercy Runes Potion of Karka Toughness and run human for Avatar of Melandru Elite for those rare cases and just keep stacking stealth. Drive your Squad using the Sqaud Ground Markers sit back and be a support role, this stops multiple things like Pin Sniping (I lol’ed when I saw people complaining about that and want Mommy Anet to coddle them)and So on. If anyone goes down you will be able to resurrect them efficiently while removing them for Sight for a couple seconds.

You must be able to remote Command a Group and train them not to blob on Tag so it goes against the Conditioned mentality of Zerglings.

Delete All weapons , Thief can kill any class just by being in 4000units of them. Giving Thief weapons is an unfair advantage. Source: PvP forums.

Also make moving use up Initiative, Thief being able to take a step is an exploit.

Maybe they should tone down the point Presence and tankiness of the other classes if they want mobility. Just saying those classes gave up a bit to have what they had people like to look past that whole caveat.

Post a video, to show this, I have never seen this exploit or Bug.

Electra.7530:

Highest and worst damage ever done to me was vault, hit me for around 9k. I was appalled. But, the numbers on the screen shots in here are way more appalling.

Kinda like how this number is appalling? Or 20k Gunflames, or 15-20KCoRs or any other number of classes and skills that do more damage?

This game is a joke all around, with every class. Thank the balance Devs

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

Cynz.9437:

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

When combined with 500 with Headshot and other 2k from the sigl of air/fire + beeing ranged that punish evey1 even for moving , then there something wrong

That why they nerfed the sigil of air and fire in the past , and the spamm Headshot spec where one most of the superior specs after the S/d have been ’’destroyed’’
(by Caed in the money-prized tournament with his Dagger/unerfed Black Powder spamm)

If your way of your thinking is like your theif (pewpewpew 2222222) , theres lies the problem of understanding with him

Edit: Dont say that the Elite specs caused harm to the game , and in the other hand try to defend them …
Thats simply moronic…

One question how does this punish people from moving??? The Meta Build people are complaining about doesn’t use Torment so no punishing people for moving. And complaining about Sigils that everyone has access to and that can go off on any attack, smh I feel like you are just trying to fish for a reason to cry for Something is OP, but keep trying to make excuses that have no bearing on the situation.

And guess what almost all classes currently have an over abundance of counters to the Interrupts and the Headshot projectile, almost all Meta Build puke out Stability, Aegis/Blocks/Projectile Hate, all on relatively low CD. Maybe they should Shave those down a lot if they are gonna nerf PI.

Exactly. See, this guy gets it. While you have to wait around some circumstances to use Headshot, what’s really OP is the unblockable (bas venom), insta cast, non-LoS, teleport, boon stripping Steal. Of course Steal and Headshot are hardly the only options a thief has.

XD

Complaining now about a 40 sec single target 1 charge Cc that does no damage by itself, that the charge gets wasted if someone uses a Dodge, or if Thief gets blinded(which there is an abundance of) or if it gets obstructed, which FYI happens a lot to Steal even on perfectly flat ground, so no damage and no cc happen? Bahahaha, you guys are trying hard to fish now.

You want to see the epitome of Unblockable CC? Look at Warrior 6 seconds all attacks are unblockable, and they can keep the Cc up while all their Cc skills except one does more damage than PI w/Headshot.

Nice try though will wait for more excuses.

Rofl

How about a 20s steal that rips stability and applies a daze after. Insta cast, no animation, no need for LoS, teleports, etc etc.

See, what you obviously don’t understand is how different classes with different mechanics mean different thing when it comes to balance. So 6 seconds of unblockable attacks might seem crazy if, say, you’re a thief. But on a warrior at the cost of a utility spot, it’s not unreasonable at all. In fact the devs are so confident of it being on a warrior they actually give war the potential to double access (traited) on a 20s CD each. Because while it’s strong for a warrior to be able to pressure a target who wants to sit behind a block all of a sudden, it’s certainly not over powered considering- warrior. Nice strawman though, maybe try again.

To be clear: I’ve not targeted PI specifically at all. But I’m happy to continually point out how Thief ini system and their overall mechanics are, and have always been broken. If anything we should be thankful for the changes to the game that have left them in the somewhat troublesome (more a slight annoyance for them really than any actual problem) position they’re in. They’ve certainly always been able to take extreme advantage in this game, and still do.

Ini system is still there. Mechanics still haven’t changed.

Rev is the same.

Rofl if only Steal wasn’t defeated by simple positioning that anyone can take adavantage of on almost every map and even just normal pathing targets over flat ground….

I already understand that balance throughout the “Competitive” Gamemodes and that Thief isn’t even the biggest perpetrator of being Op , and that it’s not gonna get any better because of the incompetence of the balance Devs. Every class needs redesigns for PvP because every class has broken and annoying mechanics.

Ryuk.6840:

Again you are not answering my question about the hypothetical scenario where teams can stack defence upon defence to making any Ranged team worthless …
I want to see that comp domating in the next ESL and move from the Passive Defence Meta to ‘’Meele domination meta’’

Why would i want Thief to be oblitared … while in fact we are talking about 1 spell/trait .
1 simply spell can make a class so un-playable ?

I understand that ppl needed the first 2 seasons to use their brain cells and combine that PI with the rest of the kit and make the class from to zero to hero …. but i didnt know that was so neccecesery so much or that ppl just love huge numbers for limiting mechanical skills …

There is no reason to answer your hypothetical question because your scenario is saying that Helseth’s team would be playing perfectly (which is next to impossible because people are only human, to the contrary of what Helseth may believe) and that Helseth’s Opponents are potatoes and not of equivalent skill as his team.

And again you haven’t answered my actual question that I asked before your ask ddeflecting hypothetical question, so one more time how is Meta Thief punishing movement with PI and Headshot? Because you are showing a huge lack of what Meta Builds have to answer skill like Headshot.

And you probably don’t know a lot of Ranged skill aren’t Projectiles in the Meta builds (as in used but ESL teams) right? Omg it can’t be true but it is, Necro Skills non projectile, Druid staff non Projectile, but Thief Headshot is. The more you know right?

These tears are so delicious!!!

Ryuk.6840:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again you are trying add all those other affects on to Headshot which there is absolutely no gauaeantee they will be there, and yeah because in all. Game mode where classes can Chain together Their defenses so when the last one ends that the first one is or is close to being off cd, or when there are 6 -25 second Cd reflects in game on top of having access to other reflects. All on top of the other skills that give counterplay to it, it’s almost like you don’t know the skillls all the Meta builds use that counter this on tiny trait/skill use.

And again you made a claim that it punishes movement tell me again how? You have failed to explain that.

There wont be a guarranted that wont be there ?
What does this mean ?
Can you drop the spamm 2222222 mentalitiy for a sec, so i can understand you ?
In the past Theifs didnt have a PI in their core specs …but they used they buffed Air/Fire sigils/Lifesteal to have the same numbers

PPl can chain together thie defenses ?
This is true …. but in the other hand can you point me a Prized-Tournament where Helseth cordinated so good with their team and made any oponents Ranged team comp worthless

Where is the spam 2222 mentality, or are you not able to make an argument without trying to insult someone? Are you that desperate, pretty sad really.

And guarantee means oh those sigils and tunes are Proc based and can be on CD because you know those sigils have CDs and can Proc on any attack, and really the Meta Thief build doesn’t use Rune of Vampirism like you previously stated, again it sounds like you don’t understand what all the Meta builds do have to combat any of this. Because they can counter the Thieves PI procs, quite effectively between their passive defense and active defenses.

Again when there are Meta Builds with 6 second Reflects on top of other Reflects and blocks available this isn’t an issue, and again like I said if they look at needing this they should tone down everything like all the ridiculous spammable defenses available or have you just been beat by so many Thieves on a face roll easily Class that you only want them nerfed?

Also still waiting for an answer to my previous question.

The DH Laying traps has a blueish white animation and Dragaons Maw can be considered and explosion I guess or a sigil of Flame Proc on the trap activation?

Ryuk.6840:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

When a thief player cannot understand that ‘’interupt spell’’ is created a in mind that is used to INTERUPT an attack and not chunk out 1/5 of your Hp with 0% mechanical skill needed and extremly small counter play …..then that why each game have a powercreep
….because the population thinks that that is ok and they should buff any other class …
(2013)

Which do you think is there an abudance ?
Theif initiative or long cds of stability/Projectile Hate for most classes ?

You literally didn’t answer the question, you said Thief Headshot punishes players for Moving, exactly how does the Thief Do that when the Meta Build everyone is whining about doesn’t inflict Torment so no punishment on moving? You are literally just making up excuses by trying to add everything and the kitchen sink to try and make an argument and it is showing you don’t really know what you are talking about.

Really small counter play? Every Meta build Sans, Thief, Necro and Revenant have access to a plethora of either Projectile Hate, Stability, Blocks, and Invulns, some have access to all of those, while others have A lot of access to some of those, oh yeah let’s not forget that quie a few Meta builds have Cc reflect as passives. So again there is absolutely no lack of Counter play to Headshot and PI, since that is what this thread is about.

So until they start needing every thing across the board PI is fine in this current environment, people just have to take responsibility and use the over abundance of defenses against it.

Again you are not answering a my question about who has more abudance of unfair gameplay …while you are trying try to use big paragraphs or big words to show that you know somethng ….
A Theifs that can spamm Headshot for 5-6k (sigil of fire/air/Rune of Vampirism ) +daze you from 900 yards with little of visible animeation or reaction counter time
Or other classes ?

Again you are trying add all those other affects on to Headshot which there is absolutely no gauaeantee they will be there, and yeah because in all. Game mode where classes can Chain together Their defenses so when the last one ends that the first one is or is close to being off cd, or when there are 6 -25 second Cd reflects in game on top of having access to other reflects. All on top of the other skills that give counterplay to it, it’s almost like you don’t know the skillls all the Meta builds use that counter this on tiny trait/skill use.

And again you made a claim that it punishes movement tell me again how? You have failed to explain that.

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

Cynz.9437:

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

When combined with 500 with Headshot and other 2k from the sigl of air/fire + beeing ranged that punish evey1 even for moving , then there something wrong

That why they nerfed the sigil of air and fire in the past , and the spamm Headshot spec where one most of the superior specs after the S/d have been ’’destroyed’’
(by Caed in the money-prized tournament with his Dagger/unerfed Black Powder spamm)

If your way of your thinking is like your theif (pewpewpew 2222222) , theres lies the problem of understanding with him

Edit: Dont say that the Elite specs caused harm to the game , and in the other hand try to defend them …
Thats simply moronic…

One question how does this punish people from moving??? The Meta Build people are complaining about doesn’t use Torment so no punishing people for moving. And complaining about Sigils that everyone has access to and that can go off on any attack, smh I feel like you are just trying to fish for a reason to cry for Something is OP, but keep trying to make excuses that have no bearing on the situation.

And guess what almost all classes currently have an over abundance of counters to the Interrupts and the Headshot projectile, almost all Meta Build puke out Stability, Aegis/Blocks/Projectile Hate, all on relatively low CD. Maybe they should Shave those down a lot if they are gonna nerf PI.

Exactly. See, this guy gets it. While you have to wait around some circumstances to use Headshot, what’s really OP is the unblockable (bas venom), insta cast, non-LoS, teleport, boon stripping Steal. Of course Steal and Headshot are hardly the only options a thief has.

XD

Complaining now about a 40 sec single target 1 charge Cc that does no damage by itself, that the charge gets wasted if someone uses a Dodge, or if Thief gets blinded(which there is an abundance of) or if it gets obstructed, which FYI happens a lot to Steal even on perfectly flat ground, so no damage and no cc happen? Bahahaha, you guys are trying hard to fish now.

You want to see the epitome of Unblockable CC? Look at Warrior 6 seconds all attacks are unblockable, and they can keep the Cc up while all their Cc skills except one does more damage than PI w/Headshot.

Nice try though will wait for more excuses.

Ryuk.6840:

When a thief player cannot understand that ‘’interupt spell’’ is created a in mind that is used to INTERUPT an attack and not chunk out 1/5 of your Hp with 0% mechanical skill needed and extremly small counter play …..then that why each game have a powercreep
….because the population thinks that that is ok and they should buff any other class …
(2013)

Which do you think is there an abudance ?
Theif initiative or long cds of stability/Projectile Hate for most classes ?

You literally didn’t answer the question, you said Thief Headshot punishes players for Moving, exactly how does the Thief Do that when the Meta Build everyone is whining about doesn’t inflict Torment so no punishment on moving? You are literally just making up excuses by trying to add everything and the kitchen sink to try and make an argument and it is showing you don’t really know what you are talking about.

Really small counter play? Every Meta build Sans, Thief, Necro and Revenant have access to a plethora of either Projectile Hate, Stability, Blocks, and Invulns, some have access to all of those, while others have A lot of access to some of those, oh yeah let’s not forget that quie a few Meta builds have Cc reflect as passives. So again there is absolutely no lack of Counter play to Headshot and PI, since that is what this thread is about.

So until they start needing every thing across the board PI is fine in this current environment, people just have to take responsibility and use the over abundance of defenses against it.

Ryuk.6840:

Cynz.9437:

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

When combined with 500 with Headshot and other 2k from the sigl of air/fire + beeing ranged that punish evey1 even for moving , then there something wrong

That why they nerfed the sigil of air and fire in the past , and the spamm Headshot spec where one most of the superior specs after the S/d have been ’’destroyed’’
(by Caed in the money-prized tournament with his Dagger/unerfed Black Powder spamm)

If your way of your thinking is like your theif (pewpewpew 2222222) , theres lies the problem of understanding with him

Edit: Dont say that the Elite specs caused harm to the game , and in the other hand try to defend them …
Thats simply moronic…

One question how does this punish people from moving??? The Meta Build people are complaining about doesn’t use Torment so no punishing people for moving. And complaining about Sigils that everyone has access to and that can go off on any attack, smh I feel like you are just trying to fish for a reason to cry for Something is OP, but keep trying to make excuses that have no bearing on the situation.

And guess what almost all classes currently have an over abundance of counters to the Interrupts and the Headshot projectile, almost all Meta Build puke out Stability, Aegis/Blocks/Projectile Hate, all on relatively low CD. Maybe they should Shave those down a lot if they are gonna nerf PI.