Guild Wars 2

Sounds like OP is salty about Thieves and needs to l2p against Thieves badly, but iirc the OP used to main Thief years ago but stopped playing and possibly maims a different class. Now. Or the OP says they Main Thief and actually doesn’t and uses that to try and ask for nerfs, Or the Op no longer actively plays and is inviting Chaos.

The nerfs to stealth access and Stealth attacks are ridiculous, Op wants to delete Shadow Arts trait line which is the most underused traitlines Thief has, and would make Thief be useless with Stealth when they are designed around Stealth at a conceptual level.

Zenith.7301:

babazhook.6805:

Zenith.7301:

babazhook.6805:

Zenith.7301:

What other effects do these other “short” cd ports have? Because blink has no secondary effect, lightning flash just does less damage than a single autoattack and doesn’t stunbreak unlike shadow step, and phase traversal is not a ground targeted port nor does it stun break.

So please tell me about these mystical short cd ports with multiple effects you’re talking about.

Oh, right, you’re full of it.

Some classes are not so reliant on stunbreaks because they have an ample supply of stability and rarely get stunned. The need for a stun break on a warrior is hardly the same as on a Thief. A thief very often requires two and more because ONE not enough whereas I can trait Zero on my Warriors utilities and do fine.

By the way my warrior has STOMP which is a stun break, applies stacks of stability , does very nice raw damage , can interrupt up to 5 opponents at once while proccing sigil of draining on each, this all while he immune to conditions via resistance. It is also a blast finisher and a multiple knockback. Talk about “lots of things in one”

That is on a lower cooldown then is Shadowstep, which by the way can very often not be used as a cleanse because it means porting BACK to get that cleanse which very often means back into a maelstromn of AOE that will kill you.

Oh and if that not enough, I can trait stomp to break Immobs. Indeed there a number of utitlity skills one can enhance with secondray traits and abilities that make thm far more useful then they first appear on paper. Shadowstep, outside traiting for a lower cooldown via a trait rarely used, is about as good as it can get.

The only classes who have ample stability are warrior and guardian. So, try again. anger has a 60 and 90 sec cd on stability, one of which is their elite.

Revenant, no stability unless a single 3 sec stack after dodging by speccing into the garbage retribution line that nerfs your damage by more than 20% (you either give up invocation stunbreaks on legendswap or shiro’s sheer damage modifiers).

Mesmer’s only stability is on a mantra nobody uses because it’s garbage as with most mantras that aren’t mantra of distraction.

Necromancer ample supply of stability? lolololol most CC susceptible class in the game, only stability on a long kitten cd reaper shroud skill whose stability is removed the moment you leave death shroud.

So please go peddle this spiel that only thieves get pinballed around.

In fact, with shadowstep, hard to catch, and bandit’s defense, you’ve got some of the best CC breaks in the game.

Immaterial to the argument at hand. I showed to you what a single warrior skill can do and you want to talk about necroes. I no where stated ALL classes had access to stability. You just move the goalposts everytime a point you make refuted. Sad really but typical.

Now go play your thief and kill any that you see.

No, what’s immaterial is you shamelessly bringing in another broken kitten class like warrior to make a point when warrior and thief needs nerfs, they don’t justify each other.

Everything needs nerfs so it is pointless to point out individual classes, but I forget myself the community only wants their classes to be OP and brain dead easy while others aren’t.

No Valid [PATH]

zealex.9410:

how is that making it so you cant class stack? I mean from waht i get thy do this for class specific mmr and more accurate mm.

It is clear you did not read the original poll thread, Evan stated that if Queue lock was implemented they would look at a Soft limit on Class stacking, which would helped against Class stacking to an extent and is better than anything we have now.

Same with Exedor both didn’t read the Dev posts on the solutions presented in the thread.

And if Queues are class locked guess what it will highlight the Overtuned/Overused class and then if there is any competency left appropriate action will be taken to bring them in line with the rest pretty simple concepts. The pros far outweigh the cons.

But I have a huge inkling that the people that are against the Class Queue lock play the Overtuned/Overused and fear that appropriate action would be taken.

MUDse.7623:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ghost Thief builds don’t use Acro…… so your “solution” would do nothing for the op and the two-three builds that use Acro don’t utilize Stealth often or at all, just saying. Your “solution” would just make the Stealth designed class have worse Stealth than every other class in game that can access it.

ghost thief is just one issue mentioned by OP, he also said his problem is they have access to use both mobility and stealth. in wvw most its like half the thieves run with acro and the other half is playing pvp meta build, and only a few play something else.

and there are d/p acro thieves, staff ones and those d/d condi ones. staff and d/d indeed dont use stealth , but d/p ones do.

but you are right only thieves using shadow arts, ghost thief being one of them have alot of stealth and mostly only a bit mobility, unless u play shadowarts + dash and therefor not using all your cool shadow arts traits properly. but as we wont get a nerf on mobility side that easily, cause its needed for spvp and OP wants a nerf to the combination of mobility/dogging and stealth he can only hope for a stealth nerf as the other one is unlikely to happen. i just want if they give us a stealth nerf, that it only applies to thieves not using shadow arts, meaning i want what every they nerf in stealthing to be buffed into shadow arts. as i only see few people using it, it probably could use a reason to be used again. ( i use it for its condi remove mainly as it doesnt require your opponent to keep attacking you like DD one ).

It’s not like other classes don’t have mobility/Invulnerabilities/and sustain through healing and their plethora of passives.

And again your suggestion would be making the Clkitten is solely designed around Stealth be worse at stealth than every other class that has it, on top of all of the Nerfs Thief has received in regards to stealth and stealth attacks.

Players like to look at classes and balance in a complete Vacuum, which is the stupidest thing to do, look at the entire game state as a whole, every class has OP aspects and builds, the funny thing Stealth on Thief isn’t even OP, every class needs to be nerfed especially in regards to the Elite Specs and they need all the Passive Proc traits removed from game and passive sustain reduced on top of damage being nerfed across the board.

And like you said earlier you don’t care if they nerf Stealth because it wouldn’t affect you. Some logic there,, smh

Again like I said originally it seems like someone plays a cele Ele in WvW and got wrest by a better player on Thief.

MUDse.7623:

i see 4-5 enemy ghost thieves every week and sadly also a few on my server, if they are on the same map as i am i often run into random anti stealth traps .. thats the only issue i got
tho i think those anti stealth traps and supply removal trapps should not trigger for a single enemy but when 3 are near it ( ofc the trigger radius got to be larger), then they are also more effective against groups as they cant sent only 1 person to trigger them all.

but still the topic is about heartseeker cause of stealth stacking with d/p . reducing the smokefield duration to the half of it would also kinda fix stacking alot of stealth while its still enough to stack stealth as a group or for 2 leap finishers. but this way a thief will prob not be able to relay on stealth as its only defence and will have to build in annoyin dogging and running. currently at least in wvw(wich is the main issue of the OP) you can play with only stealth as defence and without mobility if you play with SA and bound thats what i do for instance.

thing is there is counterplay for stealth but there is no counterplay to superior mobility. so as your problem in OP is the combination of stealth + mobility, either demand some mobility nerfes wich we wont get easily as we need that for pvp or another option would be make shadow arts’ trait Meld with Shadows also apply to combos leap / blast in smoefield while nerfing the effect duration by 1 second. this way you push the thief more to use shadow arts if he wants to relay on stealth as defence. then he will lose either dmg for giving up DA or he will lose some dogges for giving up acro and lst option he just live with 2 sec stealth from combo so its not really worth stacking it only for a quick backstab that has to land on first try or he has a problem with backstab cd..
that way OP would be happy and my build in wvw wont get hurt

Ghost Thief builds don’t use Acro…… so your “solution” would do nothing for the op and the two-three builds that use Acro don’t utilize Stealth often or at all, just saying. Your “solution” would just make the Stealth designed class have worse Stealth than every other class in game that can access it.

apharma.3741:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Only two things need need to happen and this is more about two conditions and not Mesmer as a class, and those are:

Remove The damage on Tick for both Confusion and Torment, only have the damage on skill use and damage on movement.

Those were there/added for PvE purposes only, these changes are only needed for WvW and PvP since they are splitting skills already it should be a simple adjustment.

Wasn’t torment always like that with a DoT and you take double damage for moving? At least it’s always been like that when I started about a year after the game came out, they changed the damage formula for it but at 1200 condition damage it does less as far as I can tell than pre condition stacking changes.

Torment was added into the game with the on tick but that was only due to PvE mobs not moving much…. you know the whole stack in a corner and burn. Then they added the damage on tick to Confusion because PvE mobs don’t use skills as much as players, so classes that relied on those conditions wouldn’t be doing much damage to the PvE mobs.

Now that skill separation is a thing they need to remove those PvE mechanics from the conditions.

apharma.3741:

Turk.5460:

apharma.3741:

Turk.5460:

If you’re dying to a Thief in WvW 1v1, and you believe yourself a skilled player, then your build and/or gear is not suited for 1v1. The only thing that a thief currently is suited to kill 1v1 on equal footing (both gear and 1v1 built), is another thief. Everything else is due to a PEBKAC.

Lol, you’re just bad at thief then, thief (DP at least) will eat revs alive, necro, power mes, any form of power ele and can have a good chance against non eternal champion warriors. Before you come back with “play thief if you think it’s good” I do and have played thief in WvW, I just find it an abysmally boring class.

Not sure how it raids against druids after the CA cool down increase, I’m sure deceiver would be able to enlighten us on how that goes.

Oh you’ve played thief! Good! Now show us the videos of you so easily winning all your fights. Shouldn’t be a hard task for someone so confident. Video capture software is incredibly easy to use, in fact most modern GPU software comes with it standard. Until then, your rebuttle is just another whine from someone who doesn’t understand their own profession, nor Thief.

Lol guess I hit a nerve, you’re the one who made the claim others had to L2P, there’s tons of videos of thieves destroying the classes mentioned. I have nothing to prove, most people who understand thief know DP has it easy vs what I mentioned, it’s only you that seems to disagree.

Sindrener, Teressimo, Touch of shadows, Aurora Legend all have roaming videos you can watch just off the top of my head.

He didn’t ask to watch Pro/high skilled players wrecking noobs, he wanted you to show how easy and unkillable Thief is as well as killing every class so easily.

Only two things need need to happen and this is more about two conditions and not Mesmer as a class, and those are:

Remove The damage on Tick for both Confusion and Torment, only have the damage on skill use and damage on movement.

Those were there/added for PvE purposes only, these changes are only needed for WvW and PvP since they are splitting skills already it should be a simple adjustment.

OriOri.8724:

Chase.8415:

Appreciate everyone voting no and ruining possibly one of the best features to ever come to the game, having sperate ratings for each profession allowing you the peace of mind that you can play any class you want and learn it with expercience.

Instead you want people to reroll a class they likely do not have experience and cause balance issues of where someone is absolutely awful with that class compared to a true main of that class in that rating bracket.

Guardian player queues up, ends with 4 in his team. This guardian player doesn’t know how to play any other class, so he doesn’t swap as he would be more likely to lose than simply remaining. New system would encourage playing more than one class, but looks like that’s not going to happen.

Class swapping will be locked regardless of which result wins. Its only a matter of whether its locked as soon as you accept the queue or when the final 10 sec CD before the game starts happens. Either way will still allow for class specific MMRs so I don’t know what you are going on about.

They both won’t allow Class specific Mmr, since Matchmaking happens before entering map, Voting no makes it impossible to have any class specific Mmr for Matchmaking accurately since players would be able to swap to a different class after the matchmaker chose your team and places you……..

Voting Yes means Class specific Mmr and better Matchmaking

Voting No means no class specific Mmr and worse Matchmaking

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

@Crinn Evan Said he was thinking of a Soft limit on class stacking which expands allowed amount as queu goes on, or did you miss that caveat?

You don’t understand what I’m concerned about. I don’t care about “stacking” because stacking is not the issue.

The issue is that if my necro gets put into a match against a Mesmer, a thief, a warrior, a AS LB druid, and a guardian. (all commonly queued classes in todays meta) I’m going to be 100% comp screwed and will be nothing but a rallybot for the enemy team the entire match.

I could queue my necro last season because I could swap off it I got comp screwed. I won’t be able to do that with prof lock so I won’t be able to play my main next season.

Locking Prof takes away agency away from me, I will not support having my agency taken away from me.

So what you are saying is you don’t want to bring to light the over/under used classes and have the possibility of forcing Devs to actually balance classes. Since with Profession locking it will make people play the safe Overtuned classes which will spotlight balancing disparities for this game mode.

And in that quote I was referencing your argument stating that Anet never mentioned or implied stopping class stacking which they did or are you going to ignore you stated such?

Voting yes will help the gamemode balance move forward, while voting no is letting it stagnate.

The benefits outway the Cons.

But I forget myself some Players in this game don’t have any sense of looking at what benefits long term.

Wolfric.9380:

It seems they already did limit class stacking. Double on one side still happens regulary though …

They haven’t limited class stacking at all, they have to code for it but it isn’t active in the matchmaker algorithm, but they may look at a soft limit hopefully that starts at 1 per team and has a big threshold before expanding the limit.

It’s funny They had no problem Stopping class stacking in Tournaments for the health and “balance” of the gamemode and competition but in the actual live game they couldn’t care less because Ermergherd queue times….. priorities seem kind of misplaced.

And people saying players didnt intentionally stack classes, hmm let’s see S1 players intentionally stacked Chronomancer, Revenant and Reaper, or Warrior and DH in S5, and other classes in the other 3 seasons, there are reasons certain classes have a huge disparity of Over-Representation and it comes down to kitten poor balance and Low Skill floor requirements for the Game mode.

So let’s bring all of this too light by locking Class Queues to see which classes are over represented in S6 because with Class Queues being locked it will make Players choose the safest/overtuned classes to ensure they get wins. Which would help point out what classes need to be brought down inline with the others.

@Crinn Evan Said he was thinking of a Soft limit on class stacking which expands allowed amount as queu goes on, or did you miss that caveat?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Madara.7435:

I think its a very good idea to poll this and not just dump it on people. Thank you for that!
Question is, if we have our classes locked will matchmaking force tournament rules on us, I mean 1 class per team only? I would love to try this. yes qtime will most likely increase, but Id rather wait 2-3 minutes more in q than having 10 minutes of a frustrating match with 5 thieves/guards. unranked could still stay the way it is now.

It’s hard to say what will happen to queue times if we enforce a hard limit on professions. The compromise is to let the profession limit increase over time.

Sounds like a Cele Ele that doesn’t know to play their class asking for unnecessary nerfs, nothing new.

xeonage.1253:

Just a simple question:

How do you think a team have ELE vs a team no ELE in same level?
How do you sure every team have a ELE? How long are the queue time if you sure every team have a ELE and that ELE with a heal bot build?

You should never put a full support in the PVP that you have a great balance before HoT. Now we see the ELE just a heal bot and he must be a heal bot.

If you are actually that worried about Team composition then maybe you should petition for Full 5v5 team queue instead of in the randomness that is Solo Queue, Just saying. Players make their choices when they queue on a class so let their choice be final, it’s simple and will give Anet a plethora of data to see what the Overused/overtuned classes and they can balance accordingly, this is compounded by the fact they allow players to Class stack and since certain classes Stack extremely well while others can’t is another disparity that needs to be addressed and actual balance can happen.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

worminator.5174:

error in measurement

You forgot to exclude those who didn’t buy Heart of Thorns from the total.
You forgot to exclude those who stopped playing Heart of Thorns before the release of Raids.
You forgot to exclude those who do not have an elite spec unlocked yet.
You forgot to exclude new players with little play time that do not even have Exotic gear.

There are more but I’ll stop here.

None of those need to be excluded (well, except those that stopped playing, obviously). As long as they are active, they remain part of the community, and should be counted.

The original question didn’t go into the reasons why someone might not raid, only about the relative size of raiders compared to the whole community.

And not all Raiders use Gw2 Efficiency and that all Gw2 Efficiency users are Raiders, to think that they do is a complete farce, so trying to use a subset of numbers of an unknown total subset number of an even larger unknown total number won’t get anyone anywhere, and no accurate estimations can be derived from it. All that those numbers show how many accounts active and not have Gw2 Efficiency accounts and how many of those players active or not attempted raids and not, they prove and disprove absolutely nothing else.

So until Anet is completely transparent with numbers or percentiles of active accounts no one will know and are just fabricating numbers to try to reinforce their bias one way or the other. The only thing we know is that Raids have exceeded the Targe Audience population size expectations of Anet, but no hard numbers.

So much whining going on it’s laughable, let’s look at what this will do to benefit players.

• increase matcmaker accuracy- so many players cried (some people posting in this thread that are against the lock out at queue) about matchmaker S5 how it was inaccurate guess what this will help fix that.
• will highlight overused/overtuned and Unterused/undermined classes for the game mode. – could lead to Devs looking into why those classes are taken so much, would be best if tied with Anti-class stacking implemented
• will make players think about what they queue on.

Let’s look at the bad.

• Increased Queue times – not that bad of a trade off for better Matchmaking.
• can’t counter comp. -which isn’t to big of an issue especially if they implement anti class stacking.

Also if players cared so much about coordinating their comps and so on they wouldn’t have voted team queue out of the Ranked game mode, just saying.

Rickster.8752:

This is a terrible idea but I still voted yes because at least its a change.

It is a bad idea because it leads to more bad feeling in games with things like 3x necro or 3x thief comps which are not fun to fight with or against.

Secondly, you are the designers. It is literally your job to make these decisions. You have the experience not us.

Hopefully it will force their hands to stop Profession stacking, or to actually balance the classes for the game mode

draxynnic.3719:

Generally speaking, the damage increase from an enrage timer is such that the enrage timer running out pretty much becomes a case of a race to finish it off before it finishes you off.

Although a pack of healing tempests on the VG is certainly an amusing option, I suspect that’s not an option that will work for every boss.

Apart from examples other than Gorseval… Maybe? I’ve only had the opportunity to face VG, Gorseval, and Wing 3 up to but not including Keep Construct.

Regarding being balanced around Ascended: Well, they obviously don’t mean that you need to have both Ascended and to play perfectly to win… the better you play, the less optimal gear you can get away with. It’s also worth noting that the earlier bosses of each wing are generally scaled lower than the later ones. I interpret that as them being designed to have their intended difficulty for players in full Ascended.

(Which they kind of have to be, so that there’s endgame content which avoids being trivialised by higher-tier gear. However, it shows that the people who called slippery slope when Ascended was first introduced were justified: we now have a gear tier which requires a significant expenditure to reach and which is becoming the expected standard for content.)

Anet released a statement saying that Ascended gear is recommended and not required, which implies that it wasn’t balanced around Ascended gear, just because you interpret something as being different doesn’t change the facts that they were definitely not balanced around Ascended gear, otherwise you wouldn’t have people Low manning every boss up till the new wing, as well as people clearing bosses in All greens, yes it takes more skill to do those things but those also show that the Stats/Gear are not mandatory to be Ascended, Anet has made the bosses more mechanic centric vs stat centric, which emphasizes on player/group knowledge and skill.

There is only one Type of Content that makes Ascended mandatory and that is Fractals, you don’t need Ascended gear for anything else in game and nothing else is designed/balanced around Ascended gear.

And since there is no gear treadmill in this game( treadmill referring to a never ending climb) the Raids are not trivialized by Ascended, and Ascended is not much of an expenditure, with having multiple ways to acquire, through crafting, Raiding, Fractals, Pvp( the easiest and fastest way to get Ascended gear to date takes maybe two-four days of PvP to get 5/6 pieces of armor or 3/6 armor and 2 weapons) as well as getting them as random drops in every game Type from open world bosses to Fractals and Raids as well as PvP and wvw.

Apolo.5942:

Siphon.8405:

People seem to not want to accept that there build is being countered in WvW. Thieves by design are Alpha Predators in WvW. It is where they shine, capturing camps, cutting off small groups, harassing enemies. ASSASSINS if you will ROAMING is what the thief is best at…

Best and Over Powered are not the same concept. Over Powered is by default the Best. The Best needs not be Over Powered.

If Thieves were as OP and unkillable then everyone would run them, yet it is the complete opposite more people run Guardians/Revenants/Eles/Necros in WvW. Go figure right?!

Again all classes are OP currently everything is overtuned and everything needs to be nerfed hard. Until that happens then it’s just people whining because their OP class got killed

In my previous post date stated what would be needed to be removed and nerd for helping gameplay to exist in this game will happen probably not

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWWn8lClOhFmCGOB8PhFqiau63+x3LE+gBoLBCgDA-TVSIABkv/A36C6RpSeqV8nqKLpEEgLBAyPBgWVWFAAB4+2H7bfADdoDdoDdoVoDdoDdolCoKtWA-w

Here you go very self explanatory. Just manage your Weapon Swaps when they are on CD for mobility you have Vault, if necessary swap Bound for UC.

Have fun Create Salt

Also you could run this Variant

Rednik.3809:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Can a player not create their own Raid group? Can a Player not post their own LFG? Can a Player not lead their own Group? Can a Player not look for an actual Raid training Guild? Can a Player not join a Static Raid Guild? Can a Player not group with similar minded people to them? Can a Player not take their own initiative?

Exactly that list was addressed in Bastion of Penitent topic, yesterday. No, he cannot because this list is not working.

Iirc since the posts don’t seem to bein the BoP thread anymore, he complained he had other obligations IRL that took priority, and he said he plays normally early morning and that no Guilds/few groups Raid at that time. Which again his IRL obligations have zero importance when it comes to this games designs and is not a fault of the games design.

I doubt he exhausted all avenues to make his own Guild/group or to join a static Raiding Guild/Group, since there are plenty of EU and NA based guilds on either region that Raid at most hours of every day, I should know I raided with an EU/OCX based Guild on NA servers when I used to play at 0200 MTD do to my schedule, guess what *I*made it work since I wanted to raid. Again the player you are referring to made excuses on why he couldn’t Raid not that he wasn’t allowed to, not that the raids are inaccessible, he was stopped by his own Self imposed limitations and lack of Initiative to find/create a Static group that works with his needs and schedule.

Again there are only Self imposed Accessibility issues, every single player can create and lead their own Raids, can look for an try to find Guilds that Raid and meet their needs, can adjust their schedules to in game or irl to accommodate their need to Raid, nothing outside of the Players own Self imposed limits stops this from happening.

All a player needs to Raid are

Time
Adaptability
Teamwork
Being Social
Basic understanding of class and mechanics
Putting forth Initiative
Level 80
At the extreme minimum Rares/Exotic Gear

No other requirements are needed

All other Accessibility “issues” are just excuses.

Rednik.3809:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

snip

These few guilds who provides guides, strategies, builds, dps benchmarks and training runs are part of community, but rather small one. And majority of community is doing quite opposite – creating and maintaining artificial barriers. As long as 50+ LI Escort LFGs are keep popping, overall community effect is closer to negative one.

Can a player not create their own Raid group? Can a Player not post their own LFG? Can a Player not lead their own Group? Can a Player not look for an actual Raid training Guild? Can a Player not join a Static Raid Guild? Can a Player not group with similar minded people to them? Can a Player not take their own initiative?

And you are basing your weak bias on the pugs, which I bet don’t make up the majority of the Raiding community, I would love to see your definitive numbers on how many pug raids there are vs Static Raid groups/guilds, most static Raid groups/guilds don’t have Li requirements as far as I have seen, and I have been in quite a few all of which offered training runs for all of their members.

PuG community =/= All of Raid community, and they only try to emulate the Actual Raid community, you very very rarely ever see PuGs innovating or adding to the Raid Meta, they just try to carbon copy the actual Raid community.

Again there are no real Accessibility issues with Raids. All accessibility issues are Self imposed which is not the Developers problem to fix or the Raid Communities, every group will have their own requirements because us as players aren’t forced to group with people we don’t want to in Raids, us as players have choices we get to make on who we group with, players should not be forced to group with anyone they deem they don’t want to be grouped with, if a group has requirements a player doesn’t meet is not bad or toxic, since that player has endless options available to them to Raid.

Again let’s looks at Raids and accessibility:

Does not require any Special Items to attempt or enter.
Does not require BiS Ascended gear.
Does not Have any restriction on entering Raids.
Raids are not gated behind anything.
Anyone can Create their own Raid Group.
Anyone can Enter Raids.
Anyone can attempt Raids.
Anyone can look for Guilds/Static Groups that meet their needs for Raids.
Does not require specific Builds(some builds are just more efficient for the same job)
The Raid Community provided Guides for every Encounter and updates Guides regularly.
The Raid community provided Class builds and compositions that are proven to be consistent with results, they are updated regularly.

Raids only require level 80 characters, Teamwork, adaptability, socialization, communication, class knowledge, role knowledge, and encounter knowledge.

Again LI are not a requirement for players to Raid, they don’t limit players from Creating/Leading their own Raid Groups, they aren’t required to enter Raids, they aren’t Required for anything besides making Legendary armor, if you think they are a requirement that is on you and are limiting yourself.

The resources for success at Raids are provided to all players by the Raiding Community, and by the Game, it’s on the individual player to overcome their own limitations to utilize what is provided.

Rednik.3809:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Raiding guilds already create multiple windows of opportunity for new players to get into raiding.

And raiding community is working hard to close them.

If there was any truth to that then Guilds wouldn’t post or refine Guides for every boss, post or refine Builds for every fight, post Training Guild advertisements, hell some even go as far as helping new raiders gear up by either giving gold or help craft certain items.

Yeah the Raiding community is doing its best to close all opportunities for new players to experience raids…/sarcasm

It’s sad that players want to take some of the only challenging PvE content and make it into Spam 1 collect loot just to increase “accessibility” when there are no actual gates to Raiding besides self imposed restrictions.

The Raiding community has done its best to make raids be easily accessible by providing a ton of information to include, guides, strategies, builds, dps benchmarks and they are constantly updating this information. They are taking the brunt of the work of Theory crafting which is the most expensive/time consuming thing when it comes to challenging content and providing it to the Community for the Communities benefit, on top of that a lot of Raiding guilds providing Raid training as well as helping gear players for raids.

The Raid community also proved that players don’t need BiS gear or Top Tier DPS to complete the raids, and showing that metabuilds are not necessary in every case(only they make it more consistent)

Just because players don’t want to use the resources available or to put effort into either looking for a static raid group (the game runs 24/7 with multiple raid guilds from multiple time zones Raiding at all hours) or into looking up and utilizing the guides/builds proven to work does not mean that raids are inaccessible, since those are self imposed limitations.

Tatwi.3562:

Amaimon.7823:

as far as I’m aware…

The world population is in the billions. You are one person. Other people’s experiences differ from yours.

That doesn’t change the fact that there is autogliding, since gliding requires one of two things which both require player input: double tapping jump or holding it down for too long, the glider doesn’t just deploy without player interaction.

Zenith.7301:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Apolo.5942:

Thief on demand damage and on demand engage and disengage are just stupid, they can have 1 not both.

Tell that to Warrior, Druid,Mesmer, and a lesser extent Revenant.

Druid requires a resource build up, which is also ruined by reveal as CA has a cooldown unlike black powder>hs. Druid’s only gap creator is either staff 3 or greatsword 3 (and they rarely run both), so you get a 800 leap with travel time that also doesn’t break stuns.

More importantly, druid has garbage damage compared to thief, the burst damage isn’t even comparable outside a rapid fire which is not only a channeled ability that’s easily dodged or interrupted or reflected, but forces them into a weapon with no mobility or good defenses (knockback shot is easy to dodge as ever with the indicator and cast time).

Revenant can’t disengage from fights at all, don’t know what fantasy you’re trying to concoct here. It is one of the worst classes for roaming because it has no tools whatsoever to run away short of having a mob nearby they can phase traversal to.

Mesmer is not even comparable to thief because all you need to do to a condi mesmer is kite the clones and him. Mesmer has no chasing potential. It’s got a 30 sec cf blink with shorter range than shadow step and that’s as far as they can chase. Staff and scepter clones cannot hit fleeing targets as they interrupt their animations to chase and shatters need melee proximity.

Thief and warriors are the only classes that have ridiculous burst on top of immense disengage and chase potential.

You can run away from mesmers, engineers, guardians, necromancers, and druids; you cannot run away from thieves or warriors because they’re the classes with the best mobility in the game on top of the best spike damage power builds

Hmm easily able to due high Burst with Druid you must not be playing it right, and Staff along with Stealth from CA allow for great mobility and Disengage, don’t know what world you are living in, and yes Rev can Disengage using Skills like Phase Traversal and so on if you can’t think of ways to use the classes tools to benefit in any situation isn’t my fault, ( the two classes I play in WvW are Rev and Thief) and again that’s why I said to a lesser extent Revenants since they require targets or using skills other than Phase Traversal to Disengage.

And I guess you have never seen a decent Chronomancer, depending on the skill and build they can Disengage extremely well as well as Provide decent damage between Mimic, Blink, Continuum Split, and Phase Retreat on top of Stealth. Again it just takes skill and Class knowledge to make use of these resources.

again not my problem if you don’t know how to utilize these classes to their potential and outside the box.

all of those classes allow for braindead gameplay as well, again every class is Op in this game currently and every last class needs to be nerfed hard.

Apolo.5942:

Thief on demand damage and on demand engage and disengage are just stupid, they can have 1 not both.

Tell that to Warrior, Druid,Mesmer, and a lesser extent Revenant.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

I never said, nobody uses it. I said, not many use it, and that’s my observations. If it would be op, almost everybody and especially the top teams in tournaments would use it, but that’s obviously not the case.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

That “metabuild” was never used at tournamentsand even in ranked, most were playing s/d and SoS + SotR instead of lb + SotW. At least in higher divisions.

Hmm seems like you did say it’s never used. Since I was talking about the Metabuild in that case.

Most (viable) utility skills have shorter cd, so calling 60s “relatively low cd” is nonsense (SoS is actually the only used utility with longer cd) and pretty much all of them provide more than just 1 thing. Usually defensive skills, because defense is more valuable than offensive utility skills.

And of course, (meta) druid doesn’t need the unblockable signet. Because, you know, it’s not op and there are better options in most cases. As i mentioned already, i wasn’t using it.
It just sounds like some people got recked by a ranger with SotW and call it op without even knowing how the skill works.[/quote]

And again it’s relatively low for what it does 3 pretty strong effects for only 60sec (42 if traited Cd) while other 1 second cast skills do one maybe two thing and have 40-50 second CDs. So yes relatively it’s a very low CD for the benefit.

Right now it’s only taken because it’s an unbalanced bug that cuts through the majority of all defenses, hell if Thief or any class you didn’t play had an 8 second unblockable bugged skill on top of 25% damage you would be crying for it to be fixed.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Srsly, why aren’t you checking it ingame, instead of harping on the irrelevant wording of some old patchnotes?

Thief gets +25% dmg from minors for longer than just 8s every minute. More dmg from major traits is not neccessary, just possible. You give up nothing for those for minors, because you take those traitlines anyways. Giving up an utilityslot (of which you only have 3 – usually taken by important defensive skills) is a whole different story. SotW only gives you an advantage vs dh and maybe power warrior, but both aren’t a major issue for druid. You won’t do better vs other classes, but you will have a harder time at defending points and surviving in outnumbered situations/teamfights, which is crucial.

I don’t care, what metabattle says. Most druids i saw in ranked were not running SotW (i wasn’t using it either btw – for mentioned reasons) and in the tournament (where litterally anybody could take part) it was only used in a few of the weaker teams. Non of the druids in the top teams was using it. Guess why? If it is so op as you claim, everyone would use it, like SoS for example, which is kinda mandatory for ranger.

So what is more balanced? A skill that is sometimes used and sometimes not, or a skill, that is so bad it’s never used?

Let’s see, you said no one uses it but has seen play in ranked and in Unofficial Tournaments recently , you say it’s not Meta but it’s listed as such on the Meta build database, hmm just because you don’t think something is Meta doesn’t mean it isn’t…..and even if it can be interruted it is still a highly loaded skill, that can be cast while in Stealth which Druid/Ranger has a lot of Access to, you know what people say to Thief and Mesmer that have long cast times on some Skills it’s balanced because you can use it in Stealth, guess what none of their skills Baseline provide so many effects on a relatively short CD like that.

So again the bug was a bug and needed to be squashed, the bug is unbalanced, Ranger/Druid have more had enough ways to use the skill unimpeded, the Druid/ Ranger can get around any and all Projectile hate by using non projectile weapons and attacks funny how that works last I check they have quite a few of those.

It just sounds like some people liked abusing the bug and are salty it’s finally being fixed.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Again, those patchnotes are just referring to the general stability stacking changes (duration -> intensity). There are notes like this for every stability skill. Just check it ingame, if you don’t believe me. And i’m talking about minor traits in traitlines that are taken anyways, not only for the dmg. And metabattle isn’t always accurate. That “metabuild” was never used at tournaments and even in ranked, most were playing s/d and SoS + SotR instead of lb + SotW. At least in higher divisions.

one more time now if the changes was only to Stacks why include the when activated caveat? Let’s look at other Stacks changes that state no such caveat….

Activation is when the skill is clicked.

Might stacks have been increased from 8 to 10, with the duration increased from 8 seconds to 10 seconds. -blood is power change July 2016 no mention upon activation….but stacks were changed.

Updated this skill to grant 3 stacks of might for 15 seconds, increased from 1 stack of might for 15 seconds.- Call of the Wild stacks changed no mention of any when activated. Sep 2015

Increased the number of might and vulnerability stacks applied from 1 to 3.-Equalizing Blow, again no Mention of When Activated. April 2016

This skill now grants 1 stack of stability for 5 seconds per target struck in addition to its own initial stack of stability, which has been increased from 1 second to 5 seconds. Stomp April 2016 stacks changed no activation caveat….

See a trend here yet?

You said the Meta Build did not use it I pointed out it does since Metabattle is the compilation of “Meta” builds, and most players go off of the Metabattle builds like it’s a be all end all.

Let’s see Signet of the Wild was used in the Groucharoo tournament by a few Rangers and was banned in the Tournament of Legends so no wonder it wasn’t used there, and the last official Tournament, the Meta was a lot different and the unblockable bug did not exist.

And yes having 1 skill slot vs multiple traits across multiple traitlines is less investment, and some of those traits aren’t minors only 2 are…. just sayin the others are major traits Havok Mastery, Executioner, Bound, Staff Mastery……

UmbraNoctis.1907:

It does NOT grant stability at the beginn of the cast. Activating = when the signet is active, which requires 1s casttime. And with bad burst i don’t neccessarily mean low burst. I know, ranger can achieve big numbers, but those combos are too easy to counter, with too high cd. And calling minor traits (with required conditions that will be met quite often without even thinking about it) a big investment, but a 60s cd utility not, must be a joke, right? And no, the signet isn’t meta. It can be used against certain comps (pure power or pure condi) and when using lb, but often it is not worth giving up defensive utilities and weapons for it. Without the bug it was crap, and it will be crap again. Removing the unblockability is a bugfix and as such justified, but it is not neccessary for balancing purposes.

Upon activation means when the skill is activated i.e. When it is pressed not upon the successful cast….. you know when the skill is activated, the activation time(cast time) is different from when the skill is activated which is when the skill is pressed.

Otherwise why would they change the skill to give stab on activation when it already gave stab on successful cast… just saying

Hmm let’s see multiple Traits and Specific traitlines to achieve high numbers or one skill slot, that does a lot more than just add damage, which is more of an investment there….

And go look up the Current Meta Druid Build, Signet of the Wild is on the Meta build and it’s not under optional but the main Build….

UmbraNoctis.1907:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm let’s see 1 sec cast that provides Stability as soon as the skill is activated… which means non interruptible, let’s see the tell can be negated by Ranger using one of its multiple forms of stealth, and it’s a relatively low CD for what it does which is 5 stacks of Stability, 8 seconds of 25% damage, 8 seconds of 50% movement speed.

It doesn’t grant stability during the cast, so it is interruptible. And since you can see, if a ranger runs the signet or not, you can predict, that he might use it in stealth (or even see it when the pet is not stealthed) and react accordingly. Also +25% dmg sounds a lot, but when considering the low base dmg and overall bad access to dmg modifier of ranger, it is not even that much. For example, meta daredevil basically gets +25% dmg for free (minor traits) + potentially a lot more if you pick traits like executioner and bound. Burst ranger builds have always been some kind of “one-trick-pony” – even with the unblockable bug – but never really op.

@OriOri
A pet that can be killed easily is a dead pet. Dead pets are useless pets. And a ranger with a useless pet is useless himself. So zerk rangers would be completely useless. And pets that don’t deal any dmg (see bears) are bad too, so bunker rangers would be useless too. For pure support, tempest is better. Of course you could balance ranger arround useless pets, but why not just delete ranger (a pet class by design) and create a new class then?

I think people should probably read patch notes everyone once in a while here you go from March 16 2015. Look to the bolded I am pretty sure that says once activated.

Ranger
Signet of the Wild: This skill now grants 5 stacks of stability for 8 seconds when activated.

And I know in game it does work I have used it on my Ranger, so yes it is uninterruptible, and Ranger only has “bad” damage when building for bunker/support, if built for Berserker or Marauders they can do pretty decent damage in pvp otherwise it would be impossible to get 18k hits with some skills/combos on Ranger in PvP, just because a player doesn’t build for damage doesn’t mean the class sucks at Burst damage., or it seems like they want both high sustain and burst….

And all of those Thief Modifiers all have conditions that need to be met, let’s see here

Exposed Weakness needs to have a condition active on the opponent.
Executioner opponent needs to be 50% or below on HP
Havok Mastery needs to be in 360 units of target.
Lead attacks have to build up from Initiative use.
Bound have to use dodges for 3 seconds of a Damage modifier.

When Signet of the wild is just one relatively low safe CD (that can be traited to be lower to 48 secs and provide more damage) that provides CC immunity, a large Damage increase and movement speed increase.. hmm

You are trying to compare a single skill use to Multiples traits across multiple traitlines for a build that has to invest everything into achieving damage multipliers… yeah nothing flawed with that logic……

And if I’m not mistaken the actual Meta Build uses Signet of the Wild so it’s not like it’s an underused skill that’s getting an unbalanced bug fixed.

When will people learn every class has things broken about them? Every last one of them, has brain dead concepts baked into them mainly due to HoT. Look at every class they have multiple things that carry them through Passive Defenses, Passive CCs, Passive Sustain, to ridiculous amounts of CC , the ridiculous amounts of Invulnerabilities and the ridiculous amount of Offensive and Defensive skills.

It’s funny when people try to claim one thing is OP when everything needs a huge nerf, every class can spec to be unkillable, or to do ridiculous amounts of burst it’s not just one or two classes it is literally every class, if you think otherwise you must not know much about the game or classes.

So until every class receives the Nerf hammer nothing should be touched balance wise since there is a pseudo balance currently.

Things that need to be toned down across the board:

• Remove or severely nerf the damage on skills that provide a defensive effect.
• Stop all classes from atatcking while Invulnerable.
• Remove all Braindead passive Defenses.
• Remove all Braindead Passive CCs.
• Tone down Burst.
• Tone down the Sustain, both Active and Passive.
• Tone down Certain conditions in PvP and WvW environments Confusion and Torment by removing the passive ticks.
• Bring back class concepts and balance classes around those concepts, classes shouldn’t be able to do everything or have access to everything, more class Unique separation.
• Make Stat investment more meaningful nerf all classes baseline heals, defenses and damage.
• Require multiple stats for building offensive Burst for both Power and Condi.
• remove Braindead Passive Traits and Skills.

And a few things to note to this thread, if a Thief or Mesmer disengages and resets a fight guess what that means you are no longer in combat as well and are effectively resetting as well… mind blown right?

Classes with Burst builds like Thief and Mesmer have to put a lot into the Burst either in blowing multiple CDs or through positioning for most of the Burst.

And it’s a laughable joke that players think Steal is OP let’s see here to make it worth while it takes 3 whole traitlines, and 5 traits to make it what it is, no other Class mechanic in game requires that kind of investment, he’ll most classes get multiple skills for their class mechanics, all of which have separate CDs and do a multitude of effects from damage to CC to healing to invulnerabilities you name it.

Again right now unless they nerf every class and strip all the broken aspects they should leave balance alone since every class has a counter, every class has weaknesses, every class has a role, every class is viable in WvW.

And last but not least these classes don’t have ridiculous healing Sustain or braindead passives carrying most of them, they rely on almost exclusive Active skill use for Sustain and mitigation so crying about stealth which doesn’t stop damage and can be revealed by a multitude of classes and skills either reactively or proactively, while other classes can run around invulnerable that can’t be removed… kinda hypocritical.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Cal Cohen.3527:

This is a bug and we are currently tracking a fix for it

Do you have any plans to give rangers another way to counter the ridiculous amount of projectile hate that HoT brought to the game?

Most reasonable people saw that this bug on SotW was pretty balanced when you considered the 1 sec cast time, huge tell, and long cool down.

Hmm let’s see 1 sec cast that provides Stability as soon as the skill is activated… which means non interruptible, let’s see the tell can be negated by Ranger using one of its multiple forms of stealth, and it’s a relatively low CD for what it does which is 5 stacks of Stability, 8 seconds of 25% damage, 8 seconds of 50% movement speed.

No other skill does that much an has a lower CD.
And if you’re worried about projectile hate it’s not like Ranger doesn’t have weapon swap and options like melee weapons or a staff there is ranged in doesn’t count as a projectile to combat projectile hate.

I don’t see why people try to defend this bug that was a unbalanced, but I guess some people need to abuse 1500 range in safety with no counterplay

zcearo.1897:

Seera.5916:

zcearo.1897:

Seera.5916:

zcearo.1897:

Only people wearing all offensive gear get downed in one shot .
If you get one shotted you have too much offensive gear
If you don’t do enough condition damage you need more CD gear.
If a fight with a small mob takes too long you have too much defencive gear.
Mix and match for the win !

In some instances there are attacks that are one shots regardless of what gear you use. Mostly in dungeons and fractals and raids.

If you have some defense there is no one shot . Unless you are talking about the lazer floor in the artherblades hide out fractal . That’s not really a attacking foe I didn’t count that .

Like I said, the one shot attacks tend to be found in instanced content.

Such as ?
As far as I can tell they don’t exist .

Let’s see to name a few……

Jade Maw Lazer beam if not dodged or invuln’d or holding a Crystal.
VG green circles if no one stands in them.
Gorseval world ender.
Sabetha flame wall.
Kudu from CoE story iirc

Oh and There are many more than these, these are just off the top of my head, most dungeon bosses have them, and quite a few mechanics/bosses in open world have OHKOs that only invuln and Dodging mitigates and no amount of stats will stop.

Substance E.4852:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

roamzero.9486:

It’s hardly overpowered with all the projectile reflect spam riddled in HoT

You mean the counter play to all the Range projectile Spam in game? SoW is a bug and needs to be fixed, period.

Anet will fix “bugs” like jump casts but not something as blatant as this says a lot.

And you say it’s not OP, let’s see does any other single skill in game give 5 stacks of Stability, provide 25% damage increase and 50% movement speed increase and now have the unintended Bug of being unblockable all for 8 seconds? On a relatively short Cd compared to all those effects. Hell that is better than most elites in game and it’s not like it can’t be cast while in Stealth to help eliminate the Tell on cast, on top of the 5 stacks of Stability being applied upon activation to stop it from being interrupted.

I love this alternate reality people live in where rangers have unbelievable burst potential and can insatgib you if you give them an ounce of an opening.

I guess that’s why every optimal ranger build has been some form of a tank. (spirit bunker, regen bunker, Druid)

Just because people don’t want to get good and not run a non bunker/support build isn’t my problem, people just like to get carried by builds, but in sPvP Ranger can build for burst, it just takes some effort on landing it on the Rangers part.

Must be fun for people not to realize that a bug like this is unhealthy for the game and Contradicts the whole “competitive” scene that’s being pushed.

roamzero.9486:

It’s hardly overpowered with all the projectile reflect spam riddled in HoT

You mean the counter play to all the Range projectile Spam in game? SoW is a bug and needs to be fixed, period.

Anet will fix “bugs” like jump casts but not something as blatant as this says a lot.

And you say it’s not OP, let’s see does any other single skill in game give 5 stacks of Stability, provide 25% damage increase and 50% movement speed increase and now have the unintended Bug of being unblockable all for 8 seconds? On a relatively short Cd compared to all those effects. Hell that is better than most elites in game and it’s not like it can’t be cast while in Stealth to help eliminate the Tell on cast, on top of the 5 stacks of Stability being applied upon activation to stop it from being interrupted.

It’s not like off season ranked means anything players lose absolutely nothing when you do lose and if anything objectively Solo players going against grouped teams would theoretically increase in skill especially if they win… just saying

Highest burst potentials would be tied between Power shatter Mesmer and zerker Maul Ranger, but there are reasons that you don’t see too many people running those. Especially in higher tiers of play.

Idk but A mod should lock this, otherwise the DH mains will storm saying that’s dH is still trash tier….

Two fixes to S/D that would make it more relevant, are return Infiltrators return to pre nerf state, so it no longer has a Cast time like it used to be, reduce Larcenous Strike Initiative cost like it used to be, and add something to either Dancing Dagger or Cloak and Dagger.

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

snip

Snip.

Snip.

Reallly only f skills? So what about Initiative, energy, alacrity, Lifeforce Stealth Attacks Dual Wield Skills, those are all class mechanics as well. Go peruse those quotes again it says primary class mechanics are f skills, but again I was talking about how it’s a secondary class mechanic.

And let’s repeat it one more time, Name another class that Has a Class Mechanic Tief behind Stealth and stealth being tied to a dedicated Specialization? You keep avoiding that question. Is it because you can’t answer it.

And remember Consumed plasma? Need I say more?

And it’s hard to take people seriously on what are class mechanics when they don’t know the simplest skills from class mechanics especially one that is derived from their main class
Players on this forum need some reading comprehension or to fully read posts before replying.

I’ll answer it as soon as you stop dodging and trying to derail the conversation. Its all you do in every thread. Tell me why you don’t consider critical hits to be a thief class mechanic even though thieves have an entire traitline dedicated to it. You can’t, and you won’t. But I guarantee that you will deflect and try to find a way to ignore that question and believe that you have “won” an argument.

All you do is attempt to derail and ignore questions that you cannot answer because you know the answer and it is the exact opposite of what you want people to believe. Stealth is not a thief class mechanic. Never has been, and never will be unless ANet removes it from every other class. But seeing as how you will steadfastly refuse to answer my question about critical strikes traitline and pretend as if it doesn’t exist, I don’t see a point in continuing to reply to you in this thread.

Swing how I asked my question without you answering multiple times besides your moot question, but here does Crit Strike change the classes skill in any way? No? Does it tie any mechanic behind it? No? So no Crit Strikes isn’t a mechanic since it doesn’t add to or modify it only increases damage Funny how that works isn’t it seems like you are grasping for straws here. Go ahead answer my question, but we both no you can’t.

Again when players don’t know simple mechanics that are from their own class can’t take them too seriously, again Consumed Plasma, ring any bells?

@apharma, yes Stealth needs a redesign and needs to be removed from classes that it was never designed around. But that is asking for Anet to almost overhaul a class as a whole at the basic level, which truth be told will more than likely never happen, they have difficulty shipping out balance patches that just tweak a few numbers.

again no other class has a class mechanic locked behind stealth or a dedicated Specialization for it, those aren’t moot points no matter how you want it to be. So based upon so much of the class revolving around Stealth make it’s a Class mechanic.

It would better if it was on entering stealth but again that would be too much work for Anet, based upon past patches.

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

Stealth is not unique to thieves, and is not a class mechanic. Stealing and the initiative system are their class mechanic, which do have their own traitline as well. Class mechanics are mechanics that are unique to that class. Since stealth is not unique to thieves it, by definition, cannot be a class mechanic.

Like you said, one of the tells of a class mechanic is that it has a traitline tied to it. But just because something fulfills that one thing does not mean that is is a class mechanic. As evidenced by stealth.

Edit – And under your logic, critical hits are a class mechanic of thieves due to the Critical Strikes traitline. Do you see why your argument that “Thieves have a traitline for stealth, so its a class mechanic” is silly now?

It’s not just Shadow Arts but also the Stealth Attacks which also tie Stealth even further to Thief which indirectly makes Stealth a Class Mechanic again name another class with the Unique Stealth Attacks and a Traitline Uniquely affecting stealth at every tier. There isn’t any.

Again without Stealth there is no Stealth Attacks, and since Stealth Attacks is a Thief Mechanic that ties Stealth to being a Thief mechanic on top of the Dedicated Traitline.

GW2 does not have “indirect” class mechanics. Either something is a class mechanic or it isn’t. Class mechanics are unique to each class, and furthermore they are the F skills. Stealth is neither. I understand that you think thief should have been the only class to have stealth, but this just isn’t the case.

Stealth attacks are a unique aspect of thieves, yes. But that does not mean that stealth is a thief class mechanic. It just isn’t, you are going to have to let go of that notion because its wrong. And again with the traitlines, convenient how you ignore Critical Strikes which buffs critical hits in every tier, yet I don’t see you claiming that critical hits are a thief class mechanic.

@TheDarkSoul – I agree that really the only thing that stealth needs is that applying damaging conditions should break stealth. Its beyond broken in design that you can deal damage to other players without breaking stealth. It doesn’t matter if the numbers are low, or if the build doesn’t have a lot of pressure. Its fundamentally broken to be able to deal any damage whatsoever without breaking stealth.

Reallly only f skills? So what about Initiative, energy, alacrity, Lifeforce Stealth Attacks Dual Wield Skills, those are all class mechanics as well. Go peruse those quotes again it says primary class mechanics are f skills, but again I was talking about how it’s a secondary class mechanic.

And let’s repeat it one more time, Name another class that Has a Class Mechanic Tief behind Stealth and stealth being tied to a dedicated Specialization? You keep avoiding that question. Is it because you can’t answer it.

And remember Consumed plasma? Need I say more?

And it’s hard to take people seriously on what are class mechanics when they don’t know the simplest skills from class mechanics especially one that is derived from their main class
Players on this forum need some reading comprehension or to fully read posts before replying.

Ashen.2907:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

X T D.6458:

I will remind the people who play thief and mesmer, that Stealth is NOT a profession mechanic. It is a game effect/mechanic.

Stealth is incredibly broken, and needs to be finally brought into line. Whether you like it or think it is useful is irrelevant, it is broken and unbalanced plain and simply.

Bahahaha Shadow Arts and All the Thief Weapons having Stealth attacks beg to differ…..

I mean it’s not like Thief has different mehanics while Stealthed or has their class Directly influenced while Stealthed Like Thief, but yes on the other 8 classes It is not a class mechanic per say.

He’s right. Technically the thief mechanics are

• Initiative system
• Stealing
• Dual Skills
• Stealth attacks

Class mechanics are unique to each class, and since Stealth is not unique to thieves, its not one of their mechanics. Yes, 1 of their mechanics does require stealth, but stealth is not their mechanic.

Yes Stealth isn’t exclusive to Thief but one of the Criteria for a Class mechanic is a Specialization directly tied to it which Shadow Arts fills that requirement. Again no other class has a Specialization almost soley tied to Stealth (only two traits don’t affect Stealth in the whole trait line), and then there is the fact that Stealth Attacks again indirectly make stealth as a Mechanic because without Stealth there is no Stealth Attack.

According to the quote you posted one of the criteria for something to be considered a class mechanic is for it to be exclusive to the class. Stealth is not exclusive to any class.

Again, that is according to what you posted.

Yes, but look at the facts of 1. Thief is the only class with Stealth Attacks, which is tied behind what exactly? Oh right Stealth. And 2. A Specialization soley dedicated to What again? Oh yeah Stealth. So even though Stealth is not exclusive Thief has. Exclusive access to the Unique Stealth Attacks which can only exist while Stealthed. And 3. Anets main design of Thief was around Stealth which is why it’s one of two featured things one the Profession bio on the official webpage.

Again no other profession has an exclusive skill linked to or behind Stealth while Thief does

IMO stealth should have been exclusive to Thief, since it is the only class that has it built into the Core Concept and design of the class, then it would be easier to balance since any changes affecting Stealth would only affect Thief

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

X T D.6458:

I will remind the people who play thief and mesmer, that Stealth is NOT a profession mechanic. It is a game effect/mechanic.

Stealth is incredibly broken, and needs to be finally brought into line. Whether you like it or think it is useful is irrelevant, it is broken and unbalanced plain and simply.

Bahahaha Shadow Arts and All the Thief Weapons having Stealth attacks beg to differ…..

I mean it’s not like Thief has different mehanics while Stealthed or has their class Directly influenced while Stealthed Like Thief, but yes on the other 8 classes It is not a class mechanic per say.

He’s right. Technically the thief mechanics are

• Initiative system
• Stealing
• Dual Skills
• Stealth attacks

Class mechanics are unique to each class, and since Stealth is not unique to thieves, its not one of their mechanics. Yes, 1 of their mechanics does require stealth, but stealth is not their mechanic.

Yes Stealth isn’t exclusive to Thief but one of the Criteria for a Class mechanic is a Specialization directly tied to it which Shadow Arts fills that requirement. Again no other class has a Specialization almost soley tied to Stealth (only two traits don’t affect Stealth in the whole trait line), and then there is the fact that Stealth Attacks again indirectly make stealth as a Mechanic because without Stealth there is no Stealth Attack.

Stealth is not unique to thieves, and is not a class mechanic. Stealing and the initiative system are their class mechanic, which do have their own traitline as well. Class mechanics are mechanics that are unique to that class. Since stealth is not unique to thieves it, by definition, cannot be a class mechanic.

Like you said, one of the tells of a class mechanic is that it has a traitline tied to it. But just because something fulfills that one thing does not mean that is is a class mechanic. As evidenced by stealth.

Edit – And under your logic, critical hits are a class mechanic of thieves due to the Critical Strikes traitline. Do you see why your argument that “Thieves have a traitline for stealth, so its a class mechanic” is silly now?

It’s not just Shadow Arts but also the Stealth Attacks which also tie Stealth even further to Thief which indirectly makes Stealth a Class Mechanic again name another class with the Unique Stealth Attacks and a Traitline Uniquely affecting stealth at every tier. There isn’t any.

Again without Stealth there is no Stealth Attacks, and since Stealth Attacks is a Thief Mechanic that ties Stealth to being a Thief mechanic on top of the Dedicated Traitline.

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

X T D.6458:

I will remind the people who play thief and mesmer, that Stealth is NOT a profession mechanic. It is a game effect/mechanic.

Stealth is incredibly broken, and needs to be finally brought into line. Whether you like it or think it is useful is irrelevant, it is broken and unbalanced plain and simply.

Bahahaha Shadow Arts and All the Thief Weapons having Stealth attacks beg to differ…..

I mean it’s not like Thief has different mehanics while Stealthed or has their class Directly influenced while Stealthed Like Thief, but yes on the other 8 classes It is not a class mechanic per say.

He’s right. Technically the thief mechanics are

• Initiative system
• Stealing
• Dual Skills
• Stealth attacks

Class mechanics are unique to each class, and since Stealth is not unique to thieves, its not one of their mechanics. Yes, 1 of their mechanics does require stealth, but stealth is not their mechanic.

Yes Stealth isn’t exclusive to Thief but one of the Criteria for a Class mechanic is a Specialization directly tied to it which Shadow Arts fills that requirement. Again no other class has a Specialization almost soley tied to Stealth (only two traits don’t affect Stealth in the whole trait line), and then there is the fact that Stealth Attacks again indirectly make stealth as a Mechanic because without Stealth there is no Stealth Attack.

X T D.6458:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

@X T D

Again you were stating a falsehood and defending I corrected you, now onto the actual topic.

It’s is only a problem when the perms stealth can deal damage, all they would have to do is make it so any applied damage direct/Condi causes Revealed and boom then all that is there is a useless perms Stealthed class that can’t Do anything i.e. Cap/contest or deal damage while staying Stealthed. Simple fix making it so those classes can’t directly affect anything while being Stealthed besides stacking stealth and watching.

But most of the proposed fixes would destroy the mechanic in regards to the class it most directly affects, Thief, since the Stealth Is a Class Mechanic of Thief that is tied to the core design of Thief, there would either need to be compensation for most of the proposed fixes or the equivalent defensive mechanics of other classes would also have to be nerfed since nothing in this game is specifically set in a vacuum and every balance/design decision was made with everything one each class taken into account or we should hope it was.

And with CCs due to the massive amount of CC spam in game any Hard CC should have large diminishing returns, relative to the Strength of the CC, that way they can trim things like Stability spam and make fighting in WvW and PvP more healthy, because no one enjoys CC spam.

It is not a falsehood, stealth is not unique to thieves and never was. Mesmers have plenty of stealth and ways to alter the durations, does that mean Mesmers are a stealth class as well? It is not part of their profession mechanics simply because they have access to it, you keep confusing the two things, and I keep telling you it is separate. Class design that happens to use a game mechanic, does not mean the class uses it as its profession mechanic. Does this mean we should never have anything done to fix a broken mechanic because it might effect thieves?

Can you honestly say that stealth is handled properly in gw?

Did I say it was Unique? And you weren’t stating that it wasn’t unique, you stated it is not a Class Mechanic, which it is. It doesn’t have to be unique to be a secondary class mechanic. It’s a mechanic because Stealth directly modifies Thief i.e. Stealth Attacks, and they have a Traitline almost exclusively modifying/augmenting Stealth again one of the criteria of a Class Mechanic. And it is what the Thief Class was designed around as shown by the heavy Stealth mechanics on Thief and by Anets own admission and focal point on the profession page of Thief on the official website.

It’s not that Thief uses stealth it’s that Thief was designed around stealth something no other class was designed around.

@X T D

Again you were stating a falsehood and defending I corrected you, now onto the actual topic.

It’s is only a problem when the perms stealth can deal damage, all they would have to do is make it so any applied damage direct/Condi causes Revealed and boom then all that is there is a useless perms Stealthed class that can’t Do anything i.e. Cap/contest or deal damage while staying Stealthed. Simple fix making it so those classes can’t directly affect anything while being Stealthed besides stacking stealth and watching.

But most of the proposed fixes would destroy the mechanic in regards to the class it most directly affects, Thief, since the Stealth Is a Class Mechanic of Thief that is tied to the core design of Thief, there would either need to be compensation for most of the proposed fixes or the equivalent defensive mechanics of other classes would also have to be nerfed since nothing in this game is specifically set in a vacuum and every balance/design decision was made with everything one each class taken into account or we should hope it was.

And with CCs due to the massive amount of CC spam in game any Hard CC should have large diminishing returns, relative to the Strength of the CC, that way they can trim things like Stability spam and make fighting in WvW and PvP more healthy, because no one enjoys CC spam.

X T D.6458:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

X T D.6458:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

X T D.6458:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

X T D.6458:

I will remind the people who play thief and mesmer, that Stealth is NOT a profession mechanic. It is a game effect/mechanic.

Stealth is incredibly broken, and needs to be finally brought into line. Whether you like it or think it is useful is irrelevant, it is broken and unbalanced plain and simply.

Bahahaha Shadow Arts and All the Thief Weapons having Stealth attacks beg to differ…..

I mean it’s not like Thief has different mehanics while Stealthed or has their class Directly influenced while Stealthed Like Thief, but yes on the other 8 classes It is not a class mechanic per say.

The profession mechanic for thieves is Stealing. Poor profession balancing using broken mechanics is not the same thing as saying its part of the class.

Classes have more than one mechanic, not all mechanics are tied to the F skills.

So explain how Stealth Attacks aren’t a Class Mechanic? They are Unique to the Thief Class and they are on every single Weapon, then there is the Traitline that all it does is modify Stealth….. sounds like a class mechanic.

Like I said, class design and game mechanics are not the same thing. People need to stop confusing the two and getting upset over anything that might threaten their builds when discussing a mechanic that is not designed specifically for any class. Just because a class has access to it, does not mean it was designed for it, that is a matter of class design.

The discussion here is about bringing stealth into line. This broken mechanic has been abused since it was introduced, and it should not surprise anyone. Allowing people to be invisible in a competitive game mode and to the extent it is allowed in GW2 is beyond ridiculous and a great example of poor design. It is not unreasonable for people to want some balance regarding Stealth.

Hmm let’s see You say in the bolded just because a class has access to it doesn’t mean it was designed for it. Yet let’s see Thief is the only class with Stealth Attacks, and has a Trait line dedicated to modifing/augmenting Stealth. And let’s not gloss over the fact of being able to Access stealth using every weapon set (on Land)( yes even SB and Staff due to combo fields).

So it seems like Thief was designed with Stealth being heavily involved, especially since it is the only class on the official see page highlighting Stealth and Stealth Attacks….

Let’s take a look at the definition of a Class Mechanic shall we?

“Generally speaking, profession mechanic of a profession refers to the skills activated through the function keys, but any mechanic exclusive to a profession can also be called a profession mechanic.”

“Each primary profession mechanic has a specialization tied to it. This can be either provide increase in recharge rate of their unique skills, a bonus in damage, or other effects. Primary and secondary mechanics often have traits tied to them. Adept minor traits for elite specializations change how a profession mechanic works, or replace it entirely.”

Hmm if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

Again does any other class have Stealth Attacks? No? Ok. now does any other Class have a Traitline almost exclusively Designed to modify/augment stealth? No?

Again there are multiple Mechanics per class not just the F skills.

Again, what does any of that have to do with the general issue of Stealth as a problematic mechanic? Class design and game mechanics are separate issues.

You explicitly stated Stealth was not a Profession Mechanic of Thief, and tried fighting on it, and I showed you otherwise. All I was doing was correctly your misinformation you were spreading.

It’s like some people on these forums don’t even know what they type and need help remembering.

And let’s see if you nerf this defensive mechanic they should look at nerfing other classes defenses especially all the passive ones because fair is fair you know. Especially since in regards to Thief the Stealth Mechanic is tied to more than just Defense.

X T D.6458:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

X T D.6458:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

X T D.6458:

I will remind the people who play thief and mesmer, that Stealth is NOT a profession mechanic. It is a game effect/mechanic.

Stealth is incredibly broken, and needs to be finally brought into line. Whether you like it or think it is useful is irrelevant, it is broken and unbalanced plain and simply.

Bahahaha Shadow Arts and All the Thief Weapons having Stealth attacks beg to differ…..

I mean it’s not like Thief has different mehanics while Stealthed or has their class Directly influenced while Stealthed Like Thief, but yes on the other 8 classes It is not a class mechanic per say.

The profession mechanic for thieves is Stealing. Poor profession balancing using broken mechanics is not the same thing as saying its part of the class.

Classes have more than one mechanic, not all mechanics are tied to the F skills.

So explain how Stealth Attacks aren’t a Class Mechanic? They are Unique to the Thief Class and they are on every single Weapon, then there is the Traitline that all it does is modify Stealth….. sounds like a class mechanic.

Like I said, class design and game mechanics are not the same thing. People need to stop confusing the two and getting upset over anything that might threaten their builds when discussing a mechanic that is not designed specifically for any class. Just because a class has access to it, does not mean it was designed for it, that is a matter of class design.

The discussion here is about bringing stealth into line. This broken mechanic has been abused since it was introduced, and it should not surprise anyone. Allowing people to be invisible in a competitive game mode and to the extent it is allowed in GW2 is beyond ridiculous and a great example of poor design. It is not unreasonable for people to want some balance regarding Stealth.

Hmm let’s see You say in the bolded just because a class has access to it doesn’t mean it was designed for it. Yet let’s see Thief is the only class with Stealth Attacks, and has a Trait line dedicated to modifing/augmenting Stealth. And let’s not gloss over the fact of being able to Access stealth using every weapon set (on Land)( yes even SB and Staff due to combo fields).

So it seems like Thief was designed with Stealth being heavily involved, especially since it is the only class on the official see page highlighting Stealth and Stealth Attacks….

Let’s take a look at the definition of a Class Mechanic shall we?

“Generally speaking, profession mechanic of a profession refers to the skills activated through the function keys, but any mechanic exclusive to a profession can also be called a profession mechanic.”

“Each primary profession mechanic has a specialization tied to it. This can be either provide increase in recharge rate of their unique skills, a bonus in damage, or other effects. Primary and secondary mechanics often have traits tied to them. Adept minor traits for elite specializations change how a profession mechanic works, or replace it entirely.”

Hmm if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

Again does any other class have Stealth Attacks? No? Ok. now does any other Class have a Traitline almost exclusively Designed to modify/augment stealth? No?

Again there are multiple Mechanics per class not just the F skills.