I run either of two updated versions of the Evasion Tank.
An Offensive version and Offensive version of this build. They use LB and S/D and rely on Nature’s Voice to keep near perma-regen up.
It is highly survivable, has good mobility, and does very good sustained damage. It is NOT the best duelist build for the ranger, but it is very fun and very effective to play. You can 1vX effectively, solo roam and contribute to small groups with this build. I can post more info, including a video of the build in action, if there’s interest.
As a player who mains a ranger 99.9% of the time and spends 99.9% of my time in WvW, the answer is no, they are not OP. They do have a high skill cap, so really good players can do amazing things.
I really enjoy fighting thieves and they are one class that does not have an OP build that I know I can’t beat. I almost always (19 out of 20 times kill or force thieves to flee in 1v1. But against good thieves, I’ll sometimes lose, but it’s not because of class mechanics—it’s because I was outplayed. I’ll sometimes be fighting a thief or a thief and a companion, and I’ll get someone on my side to wander by and join the fight. The thief often drops them nearly instantly, which tells me many folks are running builds that they shouldn’t be running if they want to roam. Thieves are better able to capitalize on bad builds and bad play than maybe another other class. But that doesn’t make them OP.
That said, thieves are annoying to fight, because they are very capable of escape if you are beating them and are able to troll you if they desire. But annoying does not = OP.
Yea it doesn’t root you to place but it does root you to target, which means it still roots you. Warrior’s sword works perfectly fine as well as thief’s sword (they work actualy much better Imo), and they don’t have leap on autoattack. You know you can use movement keys to stick to your target? Try to use them.
I understand, but that is not what ‘root’ means. I wouldn’t say that GS #3 ‘roots’ you to the target. Typically the word ‘root’ in MMOs implies a function that holds you in place, rather than one which provides mobility, like Sword #1. I guess my main point was that it doesn’t root you in place, but does allow you to stick to your target, and that we just differ in our understanding of what ‘root’ means.
And now, can I ask about this statement?
“You know you can use movement keys to stick to your target? Try to use them.”
Do you really think I don’t know that the movement keys can allow you to you follow your target? Was the suggestion to “try to use them” serious? Sarcastic? Condescending? I guess I just don’t understand the latent and sometimes explicit hostility people express when people post views that disagree their own.
…it will cause you to leap toward your target. In fact, it does the opposite of root you—it grants you automatic offensive mobility. The leap function coupled with the auto cripple means that you stick like glue to your target and can burn it down. I can see how it might be annoying if you are fighting a mindless PVE mob that just sits there, but it is a great boon to fighting a mobile opponent with human intelligence.
The sword #1 may be our best “autoattack” out of any weapon set, so long as you actually turn off autoattack.
The problem people have is that if you spam #1 mindlessly too many time, you must wait for the leap to finish before you are able to dodge. But this is sort of true for many attacks—Sword #2, GS #3 do not allow you to evade mid leap.
I really hope ANET doesn’t remove the leap-to-foe functionality for Sword #1. It is an advanced weapon that requires skill and practice to use, but it is also incredibly rewarding. It might be fine to allow evades priority in the action que.
I thought I would make this post because it seems like the Sword #1 skill is misunderstood and people are actually hoping that ANET is reworking it for the big October patch. I hope they do not.
It’s not misunderstood. It’s pointless in PvE and results in numerous deaths, not just from the inability to dodge but from leaping off of cliffs when mobs die.
It’s a terribly designed auto-attack.
If you have having trouble sticking to melee on your opponents, l2p like every other class that doesn’t have a leap in their melee auto attack doing the work for them. Sticking to the target as a function of an auto-attack is actually passive gameplay, ie the game is doing something for you. Generally that lowers the skill cap when sticking to a target is required. So to lower the skill bar for PvP play they raise the skill bar (and offer nothing in return) for PvE play.
I have no problem with other skills making a dodge difficult as long as they are not an auto-attack.
The first skill of a weapon set should never function the way the sword does.
Part of what you say (that you think the sword #1 skill is awful) is your opinion, to which you are entitled. However, the rest of what you say doesn’t make sense. Somehow you think what I said implied that the sword #1 skill promotes passive gameplay. The opposite is true and is evident from the string of comments above. For it to work well in PvP, you MUST turn off autoattack and DECIDE when to and how many times to active the attack. That is the opposite of passive. In my opinion the definition of passive is reliance on the autoattack function—having the computer press the button for you seems pretty passive to me.
Also, your reasoning implies that GS #1 imposes a low skill cap because it has a passive evade in its autoattack chain.
If you have ever seen a skillful ranger use the 1h sword in PvP/WvW, then you would realize that the way the sword #1 works promotes anything but a passive gameplay. The 1h sword is a more difficult weapon to master and I can understand why some would avoid it (like offhand axe, which some people swear by but I can’t get the hang of).
That said, I agree with the annoyance of sword 1 in some Pve content, but other weapons have their annoyances as well, too (e.g., LB #5, off-hand axe 35).
…it will cause you to leap toward your target. In fact, it does the opposite of root you—it grants you automatic offensive mobility. The leap function coupled with the auto cripple means that you stick like glue to your target and can burn it down. I can see how it might be annoying if you are fighting a mindless PVE mob that just sits there, but it is a great boon to fighting a mobile opponent with human intelligence.
The sword #1 may be our best “autoattack” out of any weapon set, so long as you actually turn off autoattack.
The problem people have is that if you spam #1 mindlessly too many time, you must wait for the leap to finish before you are able to dodge. But this is sort of true for many attacks—Sword #2, GS #3 do not allow you to evade mid leap.
I really hope ANET doesn’t remove the leap-to-foe functionality for Sword #1. It is an advanced weapon that requires skill and practice to use, but it is also incredibly rewarding. It might be fine to allow evades priority in the action que.
I thought I would make this post because it seems like the Sword #1 skill is misunderstood and people are actually hoping that ANET is reworking it for the big October patch. I hope they do not.
Please, for the love of kittens, change Ranger sword auto (#1) so you are NOT glued into the combat animation. The one glaring issue with using Sword Ranger in PvP/WvW.
It’s nifty useful in PvE where you can faceroll stay on target since the animation locks you into constantly closing on the target, but this isn’t a reason to leave it as broken as it is.
With all due respect I completely disagree. The stick like glue to your target is an incredibly powerful feature of the ranger Sword #1 attack.
Turn off autoattack.
Someone dodges away? No worries, just press 1 and be back on top them.
You are crippled? No worries, just press 1 and leap to be right on top of your opponent.
For those of us who have worked to master the sword mechanic, removing the stick like glue feature would be a significant nerf.
I’ve spend several months running the condition-regen bunker ranger build. This build is awesome for roaming and is very survivable against perm stealth thieves. However, because of the thief condition clears and the somewhat slow ramp-up time for stacking conditions, it was very difficult to stack enough conditions on good perm-stealth thieves to kill them.
I’ve recently been experimenting with power builds (longbow, S/D) and have found this to be far more effective against all thieves than the condition build. The key is to be able to survive their burst, so you want over 3000 armor (closer to 2000 toughness the better), some form of sustain (I run perma regen/shout though with 0 healing), and enough damage to kill. For damage, shoot for as close to 2000 power as you can, while keeping your toughness high and crit% and damage near 50%.
The high toughness allows you to shrug off bursts, perma regen, the 3 evades on the S/D plus the knockback and stealth from the LB provide a lot of sustain. The key is to keep the thief poisoned, use a bursty pet (birds), and swing even when you they are stealthed. Good ones may still run away once they realize they can’t kill you, but you will get your share of kills.
Just for counter arguments sake:
Warrior: 20 in cleansing ire, 30 in inspired battle standard, full adrenaline, alternating banners for 100% regen uptime.
Healing Signet: 402 hps
Regen: 155 hps (5 people = 775 hps)
Adrenal Health: 390/3 = 130 hps402 + 155 + 130 = 687 hps, sustainable indefinitely, unless you go out of action long enough to see adrenaline decay.
Seems balanced to me. Warriors have a higher damage potential, and are capable of doing more damage output while traited for survival than rangers. So risk/reward and outputs all factored in, it looks like the 2 classes are equal with each other, 1 having more survival through evades, while the other having a higher total damage output.
Also, the hps from the banners isn’t the only AoE effect granted for your party, which is a nice little bonus.
Still, everything looks pretty in line.
Your not factoring in your pet to damage, and that is all the Warrior healing abilities he has.
If I added the 658 Hp/S healing, and the Spirit of Nature, Signet of the Wild, Regeneration, Natural Healing then the Hp/S is almost twice as much as what a warrior can heal for. This isn’t even including the pet.
Not to mention the Ranger has Stealth/Protection/Spam-Evades.
Natural Healing = 133 hp/s (Also 125 more for pet, far more then Adrenal Health.)
Troll Unguent = 342.4 hp/s (685 if you count pet.)
Signet of the Wild = 62 hp/s. (125+187 if you count the pet.)
Spirit of Nature = 480 hp/s. (1440 if you count the pet, and the spirit itself since it heals allies.)That is 2570 Hp/s! Not Including Regeneration, which heals both the ranger and his pet.
1017 HP/s on just the ranger alone. With no healing power. No boons added
So let me teach you math and about ranger builds outside of sPvP. The most commonly used sources of healing for rangers are TU and SoW and regen. Assuming you are running a specific build that allows perma regen, here is how you would calculate healing/second for a ranger with 0 healing power
Perma regen=125/s
SoW=62/s
TU=850/sec for 10 seconds, 0 for 15 seconds—this is based on 10 second duration and 25 second cool down.
This implies that 40% of the time (10/25) TU is effective, and 60% of the time (15/25) it is not. While it is effective, a ranger heals for 1037 (125+62+850)hp/second. While it is not effective (most of the time), a ranger heals for 187 (125+62)hp/second. To calculate the ‘average’ healing during a 25 second period you multiply .4 × 1038 and add that to .6 × 187, which gives you 527 hp/second.
This number can be significantly boosted with healing power, but you must remember that most of the time, the effective healing is less than HALF of the average healing per second. Moreover, having perma regen sacrifices damage and most rangers don’t have that, so to calculate an accurate healing/second rate you’d need to assume less than 100% uptime for regen (more like 30% or even less for many builds).
So, for most of the time, a ranger will be healing for less than 200/second unless they spec healing power. That number increases ONLY if they cast an ability with a cooldown and they cast shout to proc a regen.
The addition of all the ‘people’ or units receiving the healing is, quite frankly, stupid. To do that, you’d need to calculate a healing/per second/per person(unit), but that would become less meaningful, since it will not as easily translate into survivability (eg healing a 5 people for 125 points is less meaningful than healing 1 person 725).
The problem is that rangers who spec for healing/survivability give up so much in direct damage they can’t kill effectively unless they go with a specific build (condition-regen). This does not seem to be the case for other classes such as warriors.
@Guff
REALLY nice looking build! I’ve recently abandoned the condition-regen builds and have been working on power builds. I have one that is sort of a defensive variant of yours:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMEQNAT8YjAVJ2VWCWs2Bk2DOxSwkXhZx9w/6kQsgHJA-jkyAYMBZCCMJKQJwioxWJLiGreBTVCoUXUt3YIrukILDAzYA-w
It is amazingly survivable and has incredible sustain, especially against multiple opponents. As I get more comfortable, I’ve been adding more damage, giving up healing power. I may try yours, without ascended trinkets.
How survivable is it? Do you have enough healing to recover from a few hard hits or a mistake?
Thanks for your thoughts on power builds!
Just curious…do you all that support account build wxp also support account bound exp in general? so that once you get a level 80 character all your characters are level 80? If not, why?
Actually the jaguar stealth is among the most reliable of the F2 skills. It doesn’t need to be near to an enemy to activate and isn’t an attack at all. It just shifts the jag into a specific state. It ALWAYS works if you use it before entering combat.
The thing is, once you are in the middle of a heated combat against human opponents, it is impossible to keep track of where your pet is in its attack chain to know exactly when to expect a just activated F2 to go off.
The other problem is that if an enemy runs out of ranger AFTER you activate an F2 like wolf how, the pet will sometimes go ahead and pointlessly howl, and sometimes it will stop the execution of the command, putting the F2 on a cooldown.
A major problems is that pets need to stop before executing their skill/attack. In my opinion, pets should function more like mesmer clones(?) rather than NPC mobs. Those mesmer thingies run super fast, and can beat the crap out of you very quickly.
I sometimes run pets on passive, and that does seem to help control the F2 functionality, but only toward the beginning of the fight and when you switch pets. And still, F2 for many pets is still a crapshoot.
@Lord Trejgon
Sword auto attack and the pet F2 have nothing in common. I personally love the sword auto—you need to learn how to use it’s specific mechanic. If you do, it can give you that edge to down opponents by allowing you to stick to them like glue.
Does the way F2 operate ruin the game for me? Well, I was dueling a Maguma mesmer with that OP dueling build. He was very good and he beat me four times straight (as expected), but I toasted him the 5th duel. What happened? I got off 2 interrupts myself and FOUR (4) consecutive interrupts/CCs from my pets. I pressed F2 (immobilize) and it worked! Then it attacked (knockdown). Then I swapped and it attacked right away (knockdown again). Then I pressed F2 (fear) and it worked again!! It was…great.
The mesmer said, “Boy, I’m glad your pets don’t always do that, or else rangers would be as good as a thief or mesmer.”
That’s our point. We are not on par because our core mechanic does not work reliably.
I guess I don’t understand why people seem so against the Sword 1 auto-attack chain. In WvW it is extremely valuable. It allows you to stick like glue to your opponent, they simply cannot run away.
I’ll admit it is unnecessary and somewhat annoying when using it against mobs. You also need to be careful using it cliff ledges… but I think the unique “stick like glue” feature far offsets this when fighting human opponents.
What’s up with this skill? The passive effect heals for 62 health per second while my Ranger has 17,047 maximum health. It would take 4 minutes 34 seconds to heal to full health with this passive while in combat. Outside combat you’re healed to full automatically and don’t need the passive. If I eat some food and gain 100 healing power then it heals for 68 health per second. Afterwards it would take 4 minutes 10 seconds to heal to full. What a worthless passive.
Not at all. If you get to 500 healing, then it heals for 92 per second. Over the course of 10 seconds of fighting, you recover 920 health. Couple that with regen and you can pretty easily be recovering 300+ health PER SECOND during combat. That is on top of any active healing effects.
I find it useful for some builds that have very little healing power.
For many of us it isn’t that we want to be Legolas. Nor is that we want to be able to burst down foes like a thief or stack conditions like a necro or cc-lock people like a warrior.
I know that I don’t need or want any of that….
/rant on
I just want F2 to work. I want it to work every time I press it. Not sometimes, maybe if the pet isn’t running and doesn’t have an attack q’d and it’s target isn’t running a tad too fast.
F2 should fire off every time it is pressed. Just like Steal for the Thief or that shroud thingy for Necros. They press F2 and it works.
Some of the more powerful F2 abilities should have casting times, so of course their being interrupted is fine. But the F2 skill should fire EVERY time the button is pressed.
The core mechanic for a ranger is a lesson in frustration. When you press a button and it has no response, it make the game feel unresponsive. It’s like being in a constant state of WvW zerg-induced skill lag. Imagine the cries of frustration if the Steal mechanic only fired off sometimes…
/rant off
No. I come from an old-school MMO mentality in which character progression, not account progression, is meaningful. Having an upleveled “Bronze Legend” seems odd.
The trick is to give advantages to small group play without punishing zergs. One way to do this is to provide advantages using the “team” grouping mechanic. Coordinated team play vs. uncoordinate zerg balls would provide modest benefits.
1. The only people who can revive a fallen ally are people in their team. (for WvW only, of course). This would promote grouping and organized play (coordinated small group>larger numbers of random people not grouped/teamed up), not punish zergs, and equalize the playing field a bit when larger numbers go up against smaller numbers. Alternatively, you could leave as is, and double the revive rate if only team mates are reviving the fallen.
2. Team stats buff. You get a 2% decrease in damage taken per active team member within 600 meters. Thus a coordinated 5 member team is taking 10% less damage…this would really help in taking on larger numbers.
3. Buffs applied to team mates last 10% longer.
4. Field effects with finishers are 5% more effective if produced by team mates. To get the bonus, one team mate would need to lay the field, and another would need to set off the finisher. (this one might be too complicated to implement)
Anyway, these are just some quick ideas. But I think finding ways to buff coordinated team play without punishing larger zergs holds promise for promoting small scale skirmishes.
The down state and AOE limit aren’t changing. But there could be buffs given to small group play to help offset these zerg-friendly mechanics.
It is possible, but the skill floor is high and it is not the reward:effort ratio is abysmal.
This is exactly correct. The reason, as stated above, is that rangers benefit MUCH less for a given increase in power than do other classes (because of the pet mechanic).
Also, solid health regen as well as high toughness are important for making a ranger viable in small scale PvP. This requires investing in two defensive stats (toughness and healing). To boost direct damage you need to invest in THREE offensive stats: POWER, CRIT % and CRIT DAM.
To get good condition damage you need invest in only ONE state (COND DAM) and this scales just the same for rangers as for other classes. You can get all the +COND DUR from food.
So, it is MUCH easier to spec for conditions/healing/toughness as a ranger than for DD/healing/toughness. If you look at Puandro’s videos you will see what a high level of skill you need to make a direct damage build even serviceable. In contrast, if you make a condition/regen build you will enjoy success even if you just spam your condition attacks and jump around randomly.
P.S. this isn’t meant to imply that condition/bunker builds are cheap or that their advocates on the forum aren’t highly skilled players.
P.P.S the solution to the DD vs. condition discrepancy for rangers does NOT involve a nerf to condition to make DD more desirable…
What I mean by the title is that the builds that take the least effort are more effective than builds requiring more effort to play well.
For example, I play a condi-regen-toughness ranger in WvW and I feel amazingly powerful in 1vX and small groups. The odd part is that it is very easy to do damage—just press my attacks. Sure, timing and good sequencing of attacks produces optimal damage, but this doesn’t matter much except in rare fights. Basically spam your condition applicators, throw in a few evades, let your toughness and high healing soak up the damage and profit.
I’ve also been playing power-based LB-S/D build. To get even marginal levels of damage, I sacrifice toughness (though it remains good) and healing relative to the condition build. I do WAAY less damage with this build, can’t clear camps effectively, and have to work my kitten off in fights against other players for attaining any results. Doing effective damage requires careful sequencing of long-bow attacks, timely weapon swapping, timing RAO with rapid fire/barrage to get 25 might stacks on pet, etc. Even when it all goes perfectly, I still don’t drop people as fast as I do with the easier to play condi-regen build. The only advantage this build has is great mobility and evades. But it is FUN…just wish it was more effective.
I wish the harder to play builds were more effective (if played well) than the easy to play ones.
So, how does sharpening stone work when active during an attack that already applies a bleed? Double bleed or are the charges still wasted?
I play a ranger 99.9% and feel I should defend thieves. For quite a while I also thought “**** thieves, those no-skill, heart-seeker spamming, trolling nubs!” Then I rolled a thief, got him to 80 and did some WvW. It is not as easy as it looks. But I learned some of their mechanics and now I have no fear of solo thieves. Even a GC thief cannot down me ever, unless I make a terrible mistake.
My favorite fights are against really talented thieves. When played well, it is a class that is really fun to watch. When played poorly they are walking loot bags, just like any other class.
That said, when a thief is part of a duo or small group, they are devastating. An experienced player can track a thief in 1v1 and counter their moves (assuming you have high toughness). But in the chaos of a skirmish, a GC thief especially can be a powerhouse, picking off wounded targets, dropping the unaware, and stealth stomping/rezing.
Sure it can be annoying, but it is no more annoying or unbalanced than my ranger who can shrug off burst attacks and passively heal so much that I’m sure my opponents sometimes feel like they are beating against a rock.
At least in WvW and for roaming/havoc, thieves are not OP. It really is a L2p issue, as well as having the right build to roam. If a GC thief can kill you in their initial burst and you have no defensive tools to fall back on, then you should consider a different build for roaming.
everyone should submit in -game bug reports as well. Thanks, Tricare, for testing this. Your results fit with my experience--I’ve stopped using entangle on stealthed players.
I’ve been running a condition build I’m pretty happy with, but I really enjoy the mechanics and style of a power build. I mainly WvW, so condition+regen is far more effective than power/crit (at least for solo roaming).
I have enough laurels to equip myself in ascended (apothecary) trinkets to optimize the condition build. So, should I do it now or wait for the August (or even future) updates to see whether a power build is more viable for WvW? I don’t see how they can make ranger power= to a condition build, unless they change the power scaling.
I’m just curious whether anyone has a crystal ball to advise on whether to spend or save those laurels.
I’ve played BM condi/bunker type builds for a while. I’ll admit I had a very difficult time getting used to the shout-build—still hate the 1 second casting time/ground targeting.
But I have gotten used to it, and made a couple tweaks. Of all its benefits, I find the on-demand regen and pet protection/stealth seem to be huge in small fights. I did make two tweaks that I think are very helpful (at least for me).
First, I use s/t and a/d. Using this combination I’ve found a rotation that allows me to cast Guard while my condi applying skills are and weapon swap are on cooldown—better use of time than spamming the 1 autoattack.
Second, I use rune of the undead. The main weakness of this build is that rate of damage is somewhat low, especially against savvy condition clearers. The additional protection of runes of the grove(?) is not needed. Most of the times I die it is not because I wasn’t study enough, but because I couldn’t kill fast enough. Adding runes of undead ups my toughness and increases bleed damage from 118 per tick to 132 (with 25 corruption stack). That’s nearly a 12% boost to bleed damage (probably similar % increase on burn).
My only remaining annoyance is that the range is only 360, so in small group fights, team mates often don’t get the boons. No reason for its range to be so small.
So, thanks hyjaxx, for a smart build!
you are correct on the just over 400. i had the gem shop regen on me last night that was also ticking. which is where i came up with the additional 80 or so. My Mistake.
400/sec is still nothing to sneeze at! I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing out on something!
Take a look at my Re-Port331 series of builds. The have 100% regen/swiftness uptime and total build regen is 500hp a tick. Sexy time to be sure.
How do you get 500 hp for total regen? Signet of the wild heald 62+.06xhealing power and regen heals 130+.125xhealing power
So for healing of 1136 that is SOW healing for 130 and regen healing for 272. That comes to just over 400. Is there another source of continuous regen/healing your build runs?
Overall, I think this build is extremely clever and takes great advantage of the new class/trait mechanics. Very synergistic and smart.
But it is a bit of a pain in the kitten to use—both the ground targeting and it is just really annoying to cast a 1 second ability (guard) while in combat. But if you don’t cast this in combat, you fail to reap the unique benefits of the build (regen, swiftness, protection and invis on pet)
I’m trying to figure out the real benefits of a shout build over, say a 0/0/30/20/20 build. It doesn’t do more damage, and in fact does less than other bunker builds (e.g., 10/0/30/10/20). The shout provides swiftnss, regen and pet protection/invis.
1. Swiftness is nice, but again isn’t permanent without spamming Guard shouts and is a boon that can be stolen.
2. I don’t view the regen uptime as a big advantage—we can already trait and gear to get loads of regen to pop when we need it. . Having regen on all the time makes you slightly more susceptible to boon-stealing thieves. Plus, survivability isn’t as much of an issue with any Condi bunker builds—the real issue is (lack of) on-demand burst damage. When I die, a bit more regen wouldn’t have saved me—usually the only thing that would have helped is if I’d have been able to down an opponent more quickly.
3.The pet protection is really nice and a clear advantage. Using the Guard shout to get a pet to use their special attack is a plus, but not necessary—they will use that when it is off CD and you summon them. The pet invis is a big advantage.
So, unless you spam Guard in combat, what is the real advantage of this build over, say some of Xorus’ bunker builds or the RRR build?
Not trying to criticize, but am also trying to see what I’m missing. Or maybe the advantages to the pet (invis, protection, getting them to use the F4) are much larger than I imagine.
I’m a roamer and agree with the sentiments expressed here about their value. I do not at all enjoy running with a zerg, yet I feel like I need to be working to contribute to the team, so I do supply camps, and yak slap/escort, as well as turn sentries.
There are two game mechanics that have a negative effect on the roles that roamers can play:
1. there is no good way to protect a yak. Unless there are 6 or so defenders, I can always kill a yak, even though it might mean my death. They can’t stop me. But I cannot usually stop others—even just one other determined, well built opponent. So, escorting yaks is fruitless (aside from applying speed buffs) unless you have a mini zerg.
suggested fix: Yaks receive a proximity buff from allies. If you stay within 300 meters, the yak has protection, clears a condition every 5 seconds, and regenerates xx per second.
2. Once towers/keeps are upgraded, no reason to slap yaks. Once keeps are upgraded and have good supply, there is little or no reason to slap yaks.
suggested fix: If there was a maintenance cost to keeping a keep/tower upgraded and it would gradually revert to lower upgrade status if a steady stream of supplies was not flowing, then roamers would have more purpose. That way starving supplies to a keep would gradually cause the supply depot to empty and the walls/gates return to wood/paper. This would also make WvW generally more dynamic.
Just a few comments about how people talk about the “skill curve” that I find both annoying and confusing.
To “where is the ranger on the skill curve” and “what is the skill curve for the ranger” imply two very different relationships. And with all due respect, most people don’t know what they are really talking about when use the term “skill curve”.
A skill curve can represent the relationship between performance and skill (or amount of practice). In this case, you WANT a steep curve, because a steep curve implies much more improvement in performance for a given increase in skill. A flat curve implies that performance doesn’t change much with level of skill.
There are two other aspects of the “curve” that matter. The “initial level” (or intercept), which refers to the level of performance obtained with 0 (or minimal) skill. Then there is the asymptote, which is the maximum level of performance obtained by someone with infinite (or really high) skill.
One final consideration is “what is skill”? In an MMO it implies not mainly twitch reflexes, but applying good tactics, using situational awareness and knowing how to maximize your specific build.
With this in mind, I believe that for WvW the ranger has a very shallow skill curve, with a mid level asymptote and low intercept. There seem to be many rangers who perform simply terribly (low intercept) and a fair amount of work seem required to perform even reasonably (shallow curve or slope). The very best rangers excel, but they need highly optimized builds and will still be beaten by equally skilled players of other classes (e.g., HGH engineer).
So, one way of thinking of skill curve is that each class has their own. Another way of thinking about skill curve is that there is only one curve and each class falls some place along that curve. This 2nd type of skill curve means something different and is more complex to think about.
I should know this, but apparently I don’t.
If I use a skill/ability that provides regen to other players, who’s healing skill does it use to determine amount healed? Mine or theirs?
If a pet applies regen to me (Fern hound), who’s healing skill does it use to determine amount healed? Mine or theirs? I did some testing and it appears the healing from Fern applied regen is the default value for 0 healing skill, but I want to double check (and see whether its working as intended).
I’m trying to find some way to apply on demand regen without having to run “Guard”—I just can’t get past the 1 second cast time and ground targeting…but that is for another thread!
What build is good for wvw? I spent a few days out there and ran back to pvp after getting face rolled countless times. I fought a warrior which was close and then he changed weapon and I couldn’t do anything after that. He was stuck to me like glue and my gs couldn’t out dps him and my longbow knockback and pet fears/root/knockbacks didn’t last long enough to keep him off me.
I fought some kind of healing ele. I couldn’t do anything as a power/survival ranger. I used my fear, root, knockbacks.. timed my damage and it didn’t last long enough for him to get out and heal up and bash me again. Lost 5 rounds.
I fought a guardian, this was a fun fight. Was 50/50 on wins/loses.
I fought a mesmer. Mass stealth/condition build and had no chance. I stayed on mesmer entire time, but my dps just wan’t enough. I am actually gearing up my mesmer for this now and so far in pvp I have taken on 3+ people and won.
I did take out some down levels, 3 vs 1 and had some fun. Took out both down levels and a weak ranger. Got zerged after, but other then that all my fights were pretty lame.
I am playing ranger in wvw same as I would pvp, except trying to survive and use my surroundings in wvw. I was quite shocked at how different wvw was from pvp. I am confused as to why people think ranger is good in wvw…. but as I said what spec are you using that’s so amazing?
I run a variant of a build posted by Xorus. Here is what I have been running: http://tinyurl.com/lv8ukv3
I will swap out malicious training in MM for Keen Edge, and I’ll move the BM traits around a bit (for reduction on F2 and pet skills), depending on my mood.
This does very well roaming—I may get around to posting a video. You can burst down classes without heavy condition removal. If they do have good removal, you can still kill them by stacking more conditions than they can remove. But if an opponent is running condition duration reduction, and heave condition removal, it can be a looonggg fight.
It plays well against mesmers, and thieves. Good engineers can be a real problem, and necros can be dangerous as well. But this seems to stand up to any class I’ve met roaming. That said, if you are dueling at a fight club you are probably fighting good players, so I would expect the win rate to be lower than obtained during roaming/random encounters.
You’re on Jade Quarry, the servers you’re up against usually are jus full of bads. I wouldn’t be surprised if a ranger can pull off duos there. Any class could probably do fine on one of the biggest zerg ball servers there is. I don’t get how that means the ranger doesn’t have issues though. Try that kitten against Maguuma roamers , haha.
Maguuma, like any server, has some good players and mostly bads. Most players on all servers are “bads”.
That said, a well played ranger is a very viable class for 1v1. A single ranger would be hard pressed against two good players of any class that are spec’d for roaming/duels. But the same goes for almost any other class/build.
It’s fair to say, that in the current state of class balance and WvW, a ranger is in good shape for solo/roaming. The primary drawback is the lack of diversity for ranger builds that excel in that role.
I can’t really speak to how much a ranger can contribute to a zerg, since I rarely am in one.
I use Dwayna Runes on all of my ranger builds, similar to how I take retaliation duration increase on all my guardian builds.
One thing rangers shine on better than any other class in the game (barring guardians) is passive mitigation (or as some people see it, constant health regeneration), so I build to try to capitalize on that, especially since the best pvp options we currently have are all condition based, leaving only the decision of whether to build for traps or pets, or spirit magic.
What I’m saying is that until there is something that rivals the effectiveness of building bunker, I’m going to stack the rangers ability for constant health regen through the roof, and unfortunately Evasive Purity isn’t in a state right now where it takes high priority for a trait slot.
Purely opinion though, it’s still good for helping Empathic Bond (and SoR/Healing Spring) with cleansing, but I’ll be more impressed when (if) the next patch delivers what was talked about in the SoTG; more active condi removal.
I’m willing to bet our more active condition removal ends up being a nerf to Empathetic Bond while not improving the situation much, this is based on past experience with Anet.
In fact I’d be willing to bet they nerf Empathetic Bond to 1 Condition every 10 seconds, and improve SoR to 2 conditions every 10 seconds, just to make it more attractive.
Wouldn’t that be a kick in the teeth. Our current state of condition removal is “good”, but certainly not great. But coupled with our passive regen, the current level of condition removal seems very nicely balanced.
The change you predict, Xorus, would reduce cleansing potential from 4 to 3 conditions per 10 seconds and make the active SoR ability a death sentence unless they significantly reduced the cooldown.
It would imply that our current level of condition removal is OP.
It would make no sense.
So, that means I wouldn’t bet against it happening… sigh
I play a condition bunker (not BM) ranger. I do not think thieves are OP at all (although the troll builds are really annoying).
There are some thief builds that I can just burst down so fast that they drop before they know what hit them or have to escape. These are the same builds that seem to be really dangerous and bursty—I can’t slip up or they burn me down fast even at 2150 toughness.
Then there are other builds that seem to drop my conditions before they do much damage at all (upon entering stealth). These builds seem to do less damage and the fights are more protracted and fun (although I rarely ever kill/defeat such builds).
So, from an outsider condition removal for thieves seems balanced. Some builds can get excellent condition removal, but perhaps tradeoff some burst damage.
Healing Spring has a base Heal amount and a passive Regen heal amount. The base Heal affects the Ranger and his pet only. The Spring itself if anyone is standing in it receives a Regen boon that lasts 3.5 seconds. If you stand in the Spring for the whole duration(15 seconds) you will receive 6 Regen stacks total at 2.5 second ticks.
Ahh so for an ally got get the 6,700 they have to stand in it for the whole duration? so if they just get one batch of it (4 seconds with my boon duration) how much do they get of the 6700?
At 6700, one tick should get them around 319 Hp per tick for 3.5 seconds, so around 1117HP or so.
ok its making more sense now, so with mine being 4 seconds it should be around 1300hp? over 4 ..then you can run through it again for another pop of it.
im really happy to get this figured out. and it still seems more viable then TU for a group/support build like mine.
a huge thank you to the community for the rapid replies to get the answers needed!
Jaxx of GRIM
-Darkhaven-
It seems that the added regen from Healing Spring does not hold much value added for this build, since perma regen is essentially maintained through shouts. Sure a team mate could be out of range for the shout and miss the regen, but that means they are probably out of range for HS.
The water field is nice, but doesn’t add reliable added healing for the ranger, need a leap through it. It seems mainly beneficial for team mates, but marginally so.
The burst heal is nice, but not nearly as good as Heal as One, which heals for more and has a much shorter recast timer. The greatest benefit of HS to both ranger and team mates for the long condition removal.
Split Blade is still eating all the Sharpening Stone’s Bleeds (while only applying 1) so be careful when you time using Split Blade.
For this reason, I don’t use the trait that procs sharpening stone. It is easy to notice when it is up during a duel, but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve hit splitblade just as I notice the proc during an open free-for-all skirmish.
Instead I use the minor trait that increases condition duration for pets and run dual canines (as per your original BM bunker video guide). I’ve found the CCs from canines to be a lifesaver in 1vX situations.
Any updates on this or variants of this build?
—The Keen Edge trait (under MM) doesn’t work with attacks that also bleed (like splitblade or crippling talon)
—Line of sight bugs causing “Obstructed” for range weapons when there is clearly no object in the way. I can post screen shots, as could most members of the ranger community
I think your build is really clever, but I just can’t get past my hatred of the ground targetting mechanic. I find it really disruptive to the flow of combat. I’m also not sure that in practical terms how much the perma regen afforded by the shout helps.
I’ve compared your build to variants of Xorus’ and haven’t really noticed much of a difference in survivability for myself or my pets. It does seem like Xorus’ version is “somewhat” burstier, though I find the Keen Edge trait (in MM) a bit unreliable.
Have you compared your build to Xorus’ (more of a traditional bunker that doesn’t rely on the shout mechanic)? I’m wondering whether my results are a byproduct of my annoyance and lack of skill using the Guard shout.
If these notes are correct, I’d say this is a pretty heavy relative nerf to rangers. The pet reduction is massive, with very little damage boost to the ranger so the overall effect is reduced damage.
I really don’t think rangers were doing too much damage…
Also, our trait changes seem lackluster—evasive purity should have been changed to remove torment.
And speaking of torment, successful rangers are highly mobile. Torment will be another threat given to two already high damage dealing classes and not, at least as far I could see in the notes, given to rangers.
Maybe these notes are not accurate. I sure hope not.
I’m actually not surprised. I had run a power (2000+) precision (50%/ 51% crit damage), toughness (2040) build for the longest time. It worked great and had good survivability.
But after you beat me once, I switched over to a condition BM bunker (almost the exact same build you posted) and haven’t noticed ANY reduction in kill speed from the power build. In fact it can be faster, since you can pseudo-burst if you hit your conditions right and they have their removals on CD.
The survivability is very strong, plus you get robust pets. The only downsides are that your range is quite limited in terms of doing sustained damage, you really need to be ‘in their face’ for the condition BM bunker to shine, and sometimes it doesn’t mesh well with the composition of small havoc groups.
So, EB removes 3 condition every 10 seconds. SOR removes 1 (plus the active). My question is, whether they are synchronized so that the 10-second check occurs at the same time.
If that is the case, the benefit of running passive SOR with EB would occur only if you had 3+ conditions on you. If you had 2 or 3 conditions, then EB and SOR would be redundant.
Is my thinking correct? If not, can anyone explain how SOR and EB work and what, exactly, is the benefit of running them together?
thanks in advance!
Yup. I meant to post that in the other thread on the Dagger 4 nerg…reposted it there.
I posted this to the wrong thread earlier…sorry:
There is something odd with the Dagger 4 skill. I see the 1/2 evade when I have offhand training equipped, like Xsorus says. But then I do this:
1) enter WvW zone
2)enter combat with a skill other than dagger 4.
3) examine tooltip for dagger 4 WHILE IN COMBAT
4) note it says 1 1/4 second evade
5) leave combat
6) note it says once again 1/2 second evade
This is with the Offhand training trait equipped. Can anyone else verify this?
There is something odd. I see the 1/2 evade when I have offhand training equipped. But then I do this:
1) enter WvW zone
2)enter combat with a skill other than dagger 4.
3) examine tooltip for dagger 4 WHILE IN COMBAT
4) note it says 1 1/4 second evade
5) leave combat
6) note it says once again 1/2 second evade
This is with the Offhand training trait equipped. Can anyone else verify this?
btw. on GS I have a way more both evades and mobility than You with sword+dagger :P
GS has only 1 evade that is part of the auto attack chain. It also has one block, one swoop and one interrupt—a lot of utility to be sure.
S/D has and evade on 2 (plus a jump to target or away from target, depending on need), an evade on 3 and an evade on 4.
How does GS have more mobility and evade than S/D?
The way some pets work now (e.g., cats and birds) is that they seldom land a hit, but when they do, it can hurt. IF I have my jaguar out, and IF I put him into stealth, and IF I have 20+ stacks of master’s bond, and IF it can land a hit, then you can expect some large number (e.g., 4K+ on non-tanky targets). Otherwise my pet is a non-factor at best, and at worst serves as CnD fodder for no-skill, heartseeker-spamming, perma-stealth thieves.
So, pets are our (unreliable) burst. If they tone that down, then they really have to make their abilities, both F2 and regular attacks, operate and hit faster and more reliably.
But to be honest, at least in WvW, good opponents I face make sure to damage my pet and try to take it down. Good opponents keep moving, making it difficult for the pet to hit. It takes a fair amount of skill and luck on the ranger’s part to get their pet to hit non-noobs in WvW.
I can see how fighting on a point in sPVP would be a different matter.
I’m really liking axe/dagger. I’ve played power/prec/toughness with a sword/dagger for the longest time. It takes some getting used to in order to effectively swap from axe/dagger to sword/torch in a planful way so that you have the right weapon set at the right time.
I’ve found it very effective to move in close with sword/torch and after I set things a-burnin’ I used Sword 2 to get some distance and weapon swap to axe/dagger.
I was a die-hard SB + S/D power/prec/tough build, but I think I am being converted to the regen/condition bandwagon (settler’s gear ftw!)
Hi Paundro,
Thanks for the build and analysis. I think your build is one of the most advanced (in the sense of being synergistic among the traits, weapons, etc) that I’ve seen. Your first build was fun, but this second build is far superior.
I’ve played this all day yesterday and it took a bit to get used to, but I am now1vXing really effectively! I note no real difference in effectiveness in 1v1 against a power/prec/tough build I was running, but your build is amazing in 1vX situations!
Here are three questions:
1. What is your tactic when fighting someone who stacks conditions (necro, thief)? Have you tried HS vs. TU and decided TU is notably superior? Or is this something you’d suggested experimenting with?
2. How central is mango pie to the healing effectiveness of the build? I’m thinking of running the -condition duration food, but I know it takes a lot of fights to determine what is best overall (one or to fights against exceptionally bad or skilled opponents can skew impressions).
3. How angry do you get when you accidentally step in deep water and your pet swaps and you lose 25 stacks of Master’s Bond?
And this is even more the case if you have an “on crit” sigil on your weapons (which is affect only by chance, not crit damage)