Guild Wars 2

P Fun Daddy.1208:

BurrTheKing.8571:

redslion.9675:

Play necro and let your minions skillfully eat enemies.XD

Everyone knows that builds with AI such as Minions, Spirits, Phantasms, and Spirit Weapons are the pinnacle of skill!

Don’t forget playing an ds ele and skillfully being immune to and unkillable by any condition build!

…actually I’m kind of fine with that. It’s only unkillable if the condi user goes at them alone. I’m hoping that Ele becomes the answer to the current condi spam meta like Hammer Warrior was the answer before.

Olba.5376:

Killface.1896:

Idea on weapon swap you get immune to blind for 5sec,I sure Anet was trying to give warrior a fighting change against endless blind spam.

That would literally give you permanent immunity to Blindness via Fast Hands. Not going to happen.

Only if you swap the instant you can, and it would still be a GM trait that is totally worthless against many builds.

Even when the tooltip said 100% it was never bugged. With condition duration that does not means you have 120% condition duration, it means you just increased how long your conditions last. That duration is still 100% of the time your conditions last, it just lasts longer. So when it said 100% less condition duration that means you are immune to conditions for the duration.

Forest is also correct about the spike in popularity when it came to Warriors. For months condi Necors and Spirit Ranger reigned supreme. Once Warrior got buffed they had builds that could lock down these builds so of course players sick of getting condi spammed flocked to the class. Condi was scissors, Warrior was rock.

redslion.9675:

Play necro and let your minions skillfully eat enemies.XD

Everyone knows that builds with AI such as Minions, Spirits, Phantasms, and Spirit Weapons are the pinnacle of skill!

The trait is Master level, same as the trait Cleansing Ire. In PvP CI is basically a must have if you don’t want to die horribly to conditions. So, if you want both traits that means going 6 into the defense line and then giving up either Spiked Armor or Defy Pain, both of which are really useful traits. Most meta Warrior builds don’t even take this trait, especially in Hambow because you don’t want to give up either CI or Merciless Hammer.

In WvW you can have food replace CI if you also have Dogged March and Runes of Hoelbrak/Mel. They don’t balance the game around WvW because it’s IMPOSSIBLE. That game mode will never be balanced because you can use food buffs in it and there will likely be a difference in the number of players on each side.

As for the passive nature of the trait, you aren’t wrong but I also don’t get why people are so against them. Even DotA-like games often have passives, in fact most characters have at least 1. In this case, the Warrior HAS to give something up to get this trait. MAYBE they could take Last Stand and then take 3 Shouts with Soldier runes…but that removal isn’t very good and it totally cripples your attack power unless you’re using conditions (a different problem altogether).

My main issue with the trait is that while there are many builds that use blindness and it’s good that ANet considered giving Wars a way to deal with it, it is totally worthless against more builds than it’s strong against. It’s not bad to have more specific traits at lower levels but a GM trait should be giving you a more consistent benefit.

I would prefer some sort of benefit that helps you in a lot of situations in addition to the anti-blind. What that would be I’m not sure, I do like the idea of it being a stun breaker, it would syergize really well with Rousing Resilience.

Back on topic though somewhere after that design philosophy was posted they clearly changed their mind because they decided to give several good anti-condi stuff to the Warrior. This means that this definition, in fact most of those definitions, mean nothing now.

bobomb.5209:

I’ve seen you posting around the Warrior forums quite often King. From debates, to helping the new players, to showcasing builds, etc.

And I would hate to see you drop off from the game.

BUT I completely agree with you on the condition meta. Conditions are disgusting at the moment. And the nerf to power did nothing to help. The power aspect is constantly nerfed for the sake of PvE and the conditions aren’t even being considered because they aren’t a problem in PvE.

At this point it is blatantly obvious that PvP and PvE should be balanced separately. It might turn a few players off when you have to learn what the regular skill do differently as opposed to PvE. But the enjoyment of the game outweighs the possible increasing drop off of players from PvP.

Whether you leave or not have a good time wherever you go.

I appreciate those words. I’m still on the fence about the whole thing. For every good match of PvP there’s 3 others that are full of red circle builds that are not fun in the least. I think the problem with both PvE and PvP is that both modes have major design flaws. Conditions are never going to be useful in PvE if the max stack allowance is so low. PvP is going to continue to be a cluster**** if the capture points remain as small as they are. There’s a lot of balancing/toxicity issues that would be greatly reduced if other parts of the game were changed. It’s not easy in some cases but when it comes to PvP capture points if you made them larger conditions would be soooooo much weaker.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Burr: When you take Restorative Strength + Mending, does RS remove Cripple/Immob/Chill/Weakness before Mending chooses 3 conditions? If so, then you have a heal that can clear 7 conditions every 20 seconds, Runes of Lyssa can potentially convert 5 conditions every 46 – 60 seconds, Signet of Stam will clear your conditions every 36 – 45 seconds, Zerker Stance makes you immune to conditions for 8 seconds, and Cleansing Ire can help clear 1 – 3 conditions per Burst landing.

I know Mending isn’t as much HPS (though it removes Poison before healing, so it can potentially be stronger depending on the situation), but if the meta really is moving that far into Condis, maybe it’s the go-to choice.

As far as I’m aware yes it does remove the other skills THEN removes the condis. Yes, that is not too bad vs condition builds but as you said the amount that it heals for is really low. Even at a 20 second C/D that amount is pretty sad. If it was 15 seconds it might be worth taking, especially on DPS builds because you could possibly afford to drop Berserker’s Stance in favor of something that helps your offensive power. I do hope ANet takes another look at War’s other two healing skills, I’m tired of getting flak for using it when the other heals are terrible.

zone.1073:

BurrTheKing.8571:

So I haven’t had time to mess around with this trait yet. I initially thought it to be too situation to be useful considering there’s so many builds that have no stuns. That being said, if the toughness you get means you get extra power from Armored Attack I guess that would be a nice side benefit. I still think it won’t be worthwhile unless it activated when you break free of any sort of control like Daze, Push back, Blowback, Fear, etc. having it be limited to Stun means in certain situations the trait is totally worthless.

Rousing Resilience activates when breaking out of stuns, knock backs, blow backs, knock downs, pulls, fear, and daze.

Really!? If that’s true then the trait may actually be REALLY useful with certain setups. I wrote it off because of how specific it is but if it’s ANY control skill then…oh my.

dancingmonkey.4902:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Monkey, you’re really overstating

Turn about is fair play, but it is okay for you to make false statements, uninformed statements, and overstatements of your own? Man this is really confuding. Where is the rule book on this?

BurrTheKing.8571:

Doing a quick scan I see 15+ posts saying that they agree with me

Yeah but you keep counting all of your own post.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Perhaps conditions are not OP, but at the very least they are toxic and unhealthy to PvP.

Agreed, they are not OP.

Now, care to explain logically how they are toxic?

I can say with absoulte certainty that I did not count any of my own posts. Why would I?

I don’t know how anything I said was uninformed, considering I try to make sure to include examples and known evidence. I don’t recall you ever saying how many games of TPvP you’ve played vs an organized team, unless I missed it. What I’ve encountered is 2/3 organized teams running AT LEAST 2 condi builds on their team, often 3.

I clearly said in the above post why I view them as being toxic, so if you’re too lazy to read it then that’s not my fault.

I’m done “discussing” things with you. You cherry pick arguments to “counter” while avoiding the meat of the post.

Monkey, you’re really overstating how many people are indifferent or OK with condis in this thread. Doing a quick scan I see 15+ posts saying that they agree with me in some way with around 5-6 repeated posters who disagree. Spend some time reading the meaningful posts in HotM and you’ll find even more people dissatisfied with things.

You are not responsible for my enjoyment, but a good mechanic should be enjoyable to not only play but to play against as well. Condis are rarely “fun” to play against, the enjoyment is one sided. I don’t claim to be guiltless in this, I know my Mace build can really suck to play against. That being said, I actually get a lot of “gg” or “gf” when using my build because while getting caught in a 3+ second stun sucks it’s also something you can play around. Mace has a really obvious telegraph that has tons of counters and it has a short range. I’ve played against Hambow and my own Mace build while playing other classes and if I lost I felt it was because I did something wrong. Fighting a condi heavy build leaves a nasty aftertaste even if you win. To use Mark Necros as an example, you spend the whole fight avoiding nothing but circles on the ground while keeping an eye out for the one that fears you. While the marks have different effects the approach to each one remains the same. Same thing with nades and bombs, they all have different effects but are still just circles on the ground. Other Engi kits can be fun to fight against. Tool kit has the Magnet + Crowbar combo that is deadly but you can tell when they are going for it. I also enjoy fighting Guardians because every combo is different in functionality.

The design of most classes are pretty good. They all have a variety of moves that have totally different effects and counters. Most condi builds on the other hand rely on using the same AoE circle over and over again to do their damage. A red circle is a red circle. There’s nothing unique or interesting about it. If the AoEs had different shapes or something to that effect it would at least make things more interesting but right now all they do is apply different effects and that’s it.

Perhaps conditions are not OP, but at the very least they are toxic and unhealthy to PvP.

I am against the current design of conditions because they dumb down the game in addition to making it uninteresting to spectate. ANet has been pushing the Esports things pretty hard (Tourney of Legends) and this kind of gameplay will not makes people want to tune in and watch. What are they going to see? A massive cluster of particle effects on a tiny circle that makes it very difficult to tell what is going on.

What people find interesting to watch is of course going to vary from person to person, but I don’t know many people that like it. I suggest you go into the Heart of the Mists and ask people what they think about conditions. When I did I got a tidal wave of negative opinions. Balanced or not, conditions are not conducive to enjoyable gameplay for a lot of people.

Also, not every class has access to the cleanse reguired to beat a condi user. These players, some of which poster on this forum, have decided that “if you can’t beat them, join them.” This is going to lead to some classes feeling like they HAVE to go condis and try to wear them down before they get worn down themselves. I don’t know WHERE you get off saying that condi classes are squishy, especially Necro. Even Engi has Elixir S and the block on Tool kit in addition to getting protection whenever they are hit by a control skill.

Conditions were better designed in GW1. It was only possible to have so many pips of health draining at one time so it was ineffective to have several condi-focused players on your team. The current stack cap is so high in PvP/WvW it’s perfectly viable to have more than one condi class on your team.

You two can defend conditions all you want, but from I’ve heard from sitting in the Heart of the Mists a large number of players don’t find 3 condi teams fun to fight. You can try to justisfy how it’s balanced but that will not change the fact that it still boils down to dropping circles on another circle.

You also seem to assume that I’m ALWAYS losing to these teams when I’m not. I made a Mace/Shield + GS build that is specifically designed to lock down condi builds. That still doesn’t change that the game feels much less skill based now. The number of PvP players plummeted the last time condis were the meta. It would take a good 10+ minutes just to find an opponent for TPvP because all the good players left.

Right now we see so many players because of the new reward system that everyone is keen on trying. The rewards are actually really good, I’ve gotten an ascended ring and armor piece already. Once people get their fill there’s a good chance they’ll get tired of it. Also, sure you can send someone after the condi user but that means you have one less there to capture. Not to mention MANY maps have hills/overlooks that reuire going out of your way to reach.

Power has to trait into 3 conditions to get decent damage. Condition builds can get duration from runes, sigils, and traits. There is no armor set that offers +Condi Dmg +Perc and +Condi Duration because they do not need it. Condition builds do not have to specialize nearly as much. You also cannot just take traits into account because with the runes and sigil changes it is very easy to get additional conditions.

Even with Warriors’ high amount of condi removal there’s no countering a team of condi users dropping a constant flood of red circles on a capture point. As soon as Zerker Stance runs out you’re going to have ever condi in the game on you and the second you clear it it’s going to be reapplied. Individually you can take care of them with control but when they are together there’s no way to deal with so many conditions being constantly placed on what you are trying to cap. A big part of this has to deal with the fact that the capture point system of PvP is poorly designed. The points are far too small and most AoE’s take up the whole area. PvP is going to stay in it’s currently casual state if things remain as they are. Who wants to watch players spam circles onto another circle all game?

It’s not healthy for the game to promote such boring gameplay. I can’t really blame players for running Double Engi, Necro, Thief, and Guard in TPvP because those three AoE users are going to be able to not only stay alive for a long time but also be able to deny the cap for a long time. I can’t think of a single condi build that is “hard” to play. Many AoEs are unblockable or linger for a long time. It’s also possible to “burst” with them which is something I don’t think should exist.

I would like to see one of two things happen. Either the capture points in PvP have to be made large enough so that you can avoid AoE conditions, or the size of the AoEs need to shrink in PvP so that they require more precision to use. A combination of the two would make fights feel less like a cluster**** and spectators can actually see what’s going on. If ANet still wants GW2 to be some sort of Esport then they have to make comp PvP interesting to watch, which means being able to see more of a point than a absurd collection of particle effects.

Those who say PvP isn’t overrun by conditions must not be playing that much are they’re getting very lucky. I played a hours of TPvP post patch and most organized teams had at least 3 condition users on their team. Engi is now one of the most common classes I see now.

So I haven’t had time to mess around with this trait yet. I initially thought it to be too situation to be useful considering there’s so many builds that have no stuns. That being said, if the toughness you get means you get extra power from Armored Attack I guess that would be a nice side benefit. I still think it won’t be worthwhile unless it activated when you break free of any sort of control like Daze, Push back, Blowback, Fear, etc. having it be limited to Stun means in certain situations the trait is totally worthless.

Julie Yann.5379:

@Burr

You can always going might stacking power bunker with 6 points in tactics for either healing banners or shouts. You can have enough cleansing and health o deal with conditions, enough armor to tank direct damage and still do more than enough damage to kill others with might stacks.

I have messed around with that a bit, it’s kinda fun but now I see more and more boon stealing/corruption being used so you can end up regreting it. Nothing more annoying than a S/D Thief with 25 stacks of might.

I play PvP and WvW about equally, I guess I could have made that more clear but things feel about the same in both: tanky condi users. And yes, I was playing last night because I don’t want to totally quit only a few days after the parch, but my initially impression is still negative. There are some decent changes, but they are overshadowed by how imbalanced condis are compared to power. Power has to invest in Power, precision, and ferocity in order to deal damage. Conditions on the other hand just need condition damage to be effective. Some need Precision to get on crit prots but nowhere near as much. Duration is not a problem because either you can constantly reapply the conditions or you can use runes and sigils to pick of the slack.

There are still some viable power builds, but players are quickly making the switch to condis because they are easier to play and offer less risk. PvP feels even less skill-based now, just dump red circles on the circle. I don’t mind WvW as much but that’s only because I’ve accepted that the PvE elements mean it will NEVER be balanced.

I’m still totally going to brag about this as if it means something.

EDIT: I wonder if it factors in your performance in the games and weighs that heavier than W/L. I do tend to get a TON of MVPs in the few matches I play in SoloQ.

I know that we ALL know that the scoreboard is messed up…but you KNOW there’s a problem when I am #2 in NA in SoloQ.

How does the board determine these rankings? My W/L is not all that great.

Krittz.6013:

As a warrior, I will say that conditions SHOULD be your downfall.

You should only need 1-2 of those defensive mechanics listed (if any at all).
If you want to kill, kill. If you want to defend, defend. If you want to be balanced, then you will not kill hard enough to another balanced build. The changes to how Power works is actually better than before. For example, if thieves actually want to spike like before, they have to be a tad more squishy to do it.

Try a 6, 5, 0, 0, 3 build and just kill them before they kill you. <3
(Or be annoying and run heavy support shouts heals and remove conditions or another carry-me build. :P)

I already tried that trait loadout in PvP and due to Crit damage..I’m sorry…Ferocity being lower and the fact that most condi builds are built tough you’ll end up getting kited at soon as Zerker Stance ends. I’ve hit a full Bull’s Charge + 100b followed by a Evis that crit on a Necro and it didn’t even get rid of DS.

NinjaEd.3946:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Spicyhash.7605:

You will get nothing but hate from apologists on these forums for posting a thread like this. If you do not enjoy the game, don’t play it. I, too, quit after the feature pack but like to read the forums to see how other people are coping with it.

The condition cheese will eventually wipe out any PvP or WvW population and it will seem almost surreal the number of people running condition builds.

Yah, I’m used to getting crap form people on these forums (mostly Thief/Mesmer players). I agree that this condi situation is only going to get worse. I’d much rather run power builds but now it feels like I hit so little while in full glass while condi users can run Dire and get sustain and damage all in one.

You have it coming, when you attack people for saying you need to L2p in a valid setting(not the exact words but I like to sum things up when I can). Sorry to say but no sympathy from me, there are enough warriors to replace you and another 300 if they quit.

I will agree though, the condi meta is getting old but power builds still have a place you just have to try a lot harder now. I already made an axe/mace hammer warrior and having some enjoyment when my aa hits for 2k+ a crit. Should try pvp, although condi builds are very common the ferocity change hardly touched pvp power builds.

You have never even seen me play which is why I can’t stand “L2P” comments. You obviously hold some sort of dislike for me mostly because of what class I like to play. I’ve played Warrior since launch and I play that archetype in every game I play. Even pre-buffs I have people saying I was surprising good considering how terrible the class was.

You and others on the forums always overstated how strong Warrior was, and you won. The smear campaign managed to get Warrior DPS nerfed the same patch that power damage gets nerfed overall. Warrior felt so strong because it went from being the worst class in the game PvP wise to one of the best over the course of around 6 months. Some people are never going to be satisfied with Warrior nerfs until they go back to being a free kill.

ANets balancing decisions can be described as giving into the vocal minority on the forums while making changes that few wanted (Ferocity/Power nerf).

Spicyhash.7605:

You will get nothing but hate from apologists on these forums for posting a thread like this. If you do not enjoy the game, don’t play it. I, too, quit after the feature pack but like to read the forums to see how other people are coping with it.

The condition cheese will eventually wipe out any PvP or WvW population and it will seem almost surreal the number of people running condition builds.

Yah, I’m used to getting crap form people on these forums (mostly Thief/Mesmer players). I agree that this condi situation is only going to get worse. I’d much rather run power builds but now it feels like I hit so little while in full glass while condi users can run Dire and get sustain and damage all in one.

I don’t normally like these sorts of posts, but after playing these last few days I have had little to no enjoyment from it. PvP is now swamped with conditions. Every match has multiple Condi Engis, Condi Necros, Condi Mesmers, Condi Warriors, and Condi Thieves. I adjusted my build to have Cleasning Ire, Signet of Stamina, Runes of Lyssa, and Berserker’s Stance. Even with all of those, conditions are about to totally overwhelm me.

In addition to this, because power was nerfed all of these condi builds that have tons of sustain makes it very difficult to kill them before they overwhelm you. If you don’t kill them during the duration of Berserker’s Stance you’re going to get blinded what feels like constantly, and a GM trait that removes one blind every 5 seconds is not going to change that. On My Warrior I feel forced to run either Hambow or s/s condi. If I don’t run one of these chances are you will not be worth having on a team. There are a couple of exceptions but for the most part other builds will not hold up as well.

I was really looking forward to diving back into PvP again, but things are now even worse than the previous condition meta. My screen is nothing but a cluster of red circles and that is in no way enjoyable to play against. The decision to nerf power builds did not encourage build diversity, it just further encourages player to run condi.

I was and still am also put off by how much ANet talks about wanting to appeal to new players. It’s feels similar to how cable providers always offer deals for new customers while screwing the long-time consumers over. PvP now feels “dumbed down” so that it appeals to PvE players.

I know none of you care whether I quit or not but I wanted to voice my disappointment.

Brigg.6189:

Skullcrack builds are great for dueling and 2v2s, I’ve never liked running it in tournies because I think hammer is too far superior in team fights.

It’s “back” in the sense that Sigil of Paral is now back to what it was before, possibly better.

They don’t WANT us to play Hambow, they just always end up nerfing other builds whenever they try to nerf it. I had a really solid power-based sword/shield + LB build that could consistently beat certain builds. Post-Patch it doesn’t have the DPS of Meditation Guards or Thieves that it used to have no problem with. I might be able to improve it a bit but I don’t think it’ll ever be as good because other DPS builds didn’t take the hit LB did.

Simon.3794:

250 more toughness is nothing, also you don’t have the toughness if its on CD, 8 second without stunbreak is huge,
if they lock burst you in that 8 seconds gap and you would be dead right there if you are zerker

plus it gives 180 toughness, not 250

180 Is still a significant amount of toughness. While you don’t have it while it’s not on CD you won’t always need to have Stability/Stun Break and in those situations Balanced Stance does nothing for you. You don’t even need it for stomping half of the time because you can just use Counterblow. I have encountered few situations where I go “kitten , I really wish I had brought Balanced Stance instead.” Proper usage of your blocks will mean that you only have to use the Signet in a worse case scenario.

Simon.3794:

dont use dolyak signet, its bad compare to balance stance.
you can have sigil of rage with 50% proc rate to have 3 second frenzy every 30 seconds, that might help with the build. pre patch i went zerker stance, frenzy, balanced stance.

0 20 20 0 30, last line had destruction of the empoweered.

Dolyak is not bad imo. If you’re traited into Signets already for a 8 sec longer CD you get 250 more toughness. That gives you a lot more sustain if you’re running Zerker.

Pray For Kosmos.5849:

what are you talking about? this build has been viable and effective since the first day the game was launched. get good.

You do realize that Warrior as a class wasn’t considered viable (only 1 good team ran one I believe) until the healing buffs right? Pre-buff Skull Crack was generally inferior to Earthshaker because it Stunned for the same duration but only on one target.

Also, after the Warrior buffs I was the first one to post a build that got a decent amount of attention (13,000 views, though idk how many were unique). It was an obvious build but you didn’t see it widely used until the class was buffed.

Sigil of Paralyzation has been buffed up to 30%, meaning that Skull Crack now lasts for the full duration of 100b. While Hambow is still a strong build, Skullcracker focuses on locking down a single target in addition to being much more mobile. In a well organized team being stunned for over 3 seconds is a death sentence. Another nice side benefit is that with a shield and Counterblow you’ll feel the Healing Signet nerf less because you have several ways to avoid taking damage. I have Furious Reaction on 2 versions but you can use Rending Strikes as well.

Here’s a few version of the build that I’m messing around with, there’s so much more room for build diversity when it comes to runes and sigils so you can really put your own spin on things. I’m leaning towards Hoelbrak runes, but Ogre seems like a good choice because while stunned it’s adding you your DPS and they can’t actively kill the Dog. In WvW I’m going to have a Sigil of Impact on the GS which will make it hit around what it did pre-Ferocity. The new Cavaliers ammy in PvP might be good because you’ll still have around 100% crit chance when you have Fury.

Version 1

Same trait loadout as before. More frequent uses of Skull Crack and more Ferocity. I’ve moved from Lysaa since Hoelbrak got buffed a bit but an unfortunate side effect is you only have 49% crit chance. It doesn’t hurt it too badly but it can screw you over sometimes.

Version 2

The weakness of this build has always been a lack of range, leading you you possibly having periods where you are dealing no damage to them while they kite. Spiked Armor helps with this a bit because you’ll have Retaliation around 50% of the time. It’s not useful vs slower hitting builds but kitting classes like Engi that hit you with tons of nades will end up killing themselves.

Version 3

Only a minor variation. You lose Warrior’s Sprint although you could switch out Dolyak Signet for Balanced Stance and take that instead. The Sigil of Geomancy will help insure you’re getting that extra 10% damage during the 100b and will last for a good amount of time after.

I feel that this build has a future now that other builds have been nerfed. I should also mention that this build can mop the floor with Hambow 1v1 if you use your blocks correctly. That’s pretty handy in organized play because chances are you’ll be able to deny their control for much longer than you’ll be able to deny yours.

EDIT: So, the new Phalanx Strength trait seems like it “might” be really fun. I haven’t messed with it much yet but with Forceful Greatsword you can give a ton of Might to your allies.

BETA Version 4

It lacks Cleansing Ire but I put on Shrug it Off in an attempt to compensate a bit. I’m not sure it’s viable but it’s certainly entertaining. With the new Runes of Strength the might you share will last for I THINK more than 9 seconds. It’s also a reason to use Mighty Defense.

@ Cogbyrn I just can’t help myself when it comes to Skullcracker since it’s my favorite build in the game. The use of the Reflect trait makes it hilarious to watch missile users kill themselves and Pommel Bash is crazy deadly if used on the right skills (heals).

I’ll also admit it makes me excited because Skullcracker was the most successful build I ever posted. I know I wasn’t the first to come up with it but it was posted right after the series of buffs when it became the answer to condi Necros.

What build this REALLY helped was Skullcracker. Now Skull Crack + 100b lets you hit the full attack instead of missing the final attack (which hits for much harder than the other attacks).

In a way, they did promote more build diversity because while it’s single target it’s hard to overlook a 3.9 second stun. It also helps Shield Bash a bit as well.

It’s going to be interesting. Healing Signet was always strongest vs. conditions because with high removal they can’t deal enough damage to kill them. With pure DPS sets getting a damage nerf around 10% it may just even out vs direct damage builds, but it’ll still be weaker against them.

So much is changing this patch it’s impossible to know what’s going to happen till we play. It’ll probably take over a week for a new meta to develop.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

What about having occasional skills that remove stealth, but don’t apply Revealed? Obviously, they would be AoE skills, either ground-targeted or PBAoE.

For example, Stomp on Warriors could be a PBAoE. Corrosive Poison Cloud on Necros could be ground-targeted. Most classes have skills that I think could work for this. Would need to be careful on where they get used, but that’s true of any new capability.

If a skill removes stealth, but does not apply Revealed, the opponent can still jump into stealth again, but it gives the non-stealther a window to either fight back or try to disrupt it again. It also means those hiding in stealth for extended periods would have to pay closer attention to what their opponent was doing in case they got taken out before they were ready. It allows counterplay opportunities that currently do not exist, and the only punishment for the stealther is that their current stealth ends. If they are set up for it, they can stealth again.

I chose Reveal only because I know something similar already exists in the game and would theoretically be easier to add to other skills. I’m not sure whether or not there is a mechanic in the game to just remove stealth and that’s it. There’s also the issue of using one of these skills on a target in Shadow Refuge. If it doesn’t cause Reveal then they will instantly re-stealth like nothing happened. Wouldn’t be too bad for Fear Me and Stomp but any other skills on other classes that would get this buff wouldn’t necessarily be so lucky.

Shadow Refuge in general complicates the whole discussion. Like I said earlier though I’m not here to demand direct nerfs to any one class. Even giving a few skills Reveal would still only make them useful against 2-3 classes (4 if you want to count LB Rangers I guess), 2 of which aren’t that bad to begin with when it comes to stealth.

apt.9184:

Also with your axe build you should take forceful gs instead along with furious speed. Replace axe mastery with gs trait and lyssa is still in my opinion going to be lot stronger so I would go with signet mastery for last trait. Fire is a lot better for gs in my opinion and energy instead of hydro would be best, since energy just gives you the extra dodges needed on zerk warr.

It was supposed to be FG I must of misclicked. Fixed now. I don’t see the need for Furious Speed, Warrior’s Sprint is always on and lets you roam w/o having to activate your elite or be in combat to move faster. Furious reaction gives you more evades and higher Fury up time.

Lyssa is getting nerfed to the point where I don’t think I’ll bother. Hoelbrak synergies with Forceful GS.

apt.9184:

Condi warrior and hambow will still be best in spvp but will be less effective. I honestly never think pure dps warrior will be viable ever till thief is changed and damage condis as a whole are given a change (as well as weakness). The warriors inherit problem of being a melee class with no condi remove is kind of bad (excluding cleansing ire because that can only really be used reliably with longbow and maybe sword). Maybe mace shield far point assault will become popular again, but still there are specs like condi warrior that can win that 1v1.

I think you can get away with pure DPS so long as you have a Shield and Zerker Stance and know when to retreat. Even in PvP a Axe/Shield Warrior can kill a Thief or Mesmer with one Whirlwind + Evis combo, especially if you forced them to use a stub breaker with Bull’s Charge. That Axe build I posted is really good at coming in and quickly taking out squishy targets and then moving on to cap a point. It’s also good at cleaving downed targets and punishing those trying to revive. Thief will probably be hit harder by the Lyssa nerf than Warrior because we still have Hoelbrak/Mel. That Swd/Shd + LB build will still be strong post nerf because it has mobility but Final Thrust is basically a Evis when they are low on HP.

I do see Skullcracker coming back, a 3 second stun is never bad to have as it can spell out death with an organized team.

I agree that it is much wiser to balance a game around team/group combat as opposed to 1v1. I also agree that “balance” is pretty much unobtainable in MMOs. What I want to add is that small imbalances can actually be good for the meta. If something is just a little stronger than everything else, it changes people’s strategies. Now an import thing to mention is that it’s only healthly so long as there’s SOMETHING in the game that counters the current meta.

A good example would be Condi Necros. They were so strong that many teams had two in PvP. About a month after Warriors received their healing buffs some realized that Hammer pretty much hard countered the meta Necro builds that had pretty much no way to resist control. Now Warriors are the meta and while SoloQ and Hotjoin were full of them I’m seeing more and more spike builds based around bursting them down and making the benefits of Healing Signet much lower since it’s strongest against conditions because they put so much towards condi mitigation. Decap Engis also counters Hammer pretty hard because they get protection from all the control. That being said that spec is way too strong when capture points are so small and a single player can deny a cap.

Sadly though, you only see this counterplay happening in higher-level play. Those in the lower and middle tiers seem to refuse to learn how to counter the meta, no matter what it is. I’ve played a lot of games but this forum community takes the cake when it comes to “nerf X.” Granted, I never played WoW so that could have been worse but considering some horror stories I’ve heard GW2 has never had any balancing snafus on that scale. Classism in GW2 is particularity bad, I’ve had people treat me like some sort of terrible person for playing Warrior, even though I played it since launch.

Right now I think the current state of the game’s balance is less about some classes being OP and more there not being enough variety on some classes and some not having any real viable options at all. Ideally, every class would be viable in every game mode and have plenty of options. If the strong classes keep getting nerfed we’re going to end up with everyone only having 1 or 2 builds and hating their class.

The real problem right now is how infrequent balance changes are. I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that I would rather have a small balance patch every month than one giant one every 6. These giant patches always introduce new bugs and throw everything into disarray. There’s letting the meta settle then there’s forcing weaker classes to wait ages and hoping they become less terrible.

stale.9785:

Each class should have 2 skills that apply revealed. 1 weapon skill, 1 utility.

On ranger, we already have Sic ’Em, add it to bonfire, with revealed triggered when within 600 of the AoE.

Guardian it could be the first half of Zealot’s Flame and Hallowed Ground/Purging Flames.

Warrior could be Fear Me and Call to Arms

Necromancer could be Well of Corruption and Enfeebling Blood

Elementalist could be Glyph of Storms and Ring of Fire/Frozen Ground/Static Field/Swirling Winds (there’s others that would fit as well.)

Mesmer – I don’t play, and have no real thoughts on

Engineer – See Mesmer

Thief – Tie them into a burlap sack, add concrete blocks and toss them into a lake.

Realistically, ANY incoming damage should trigger the revealed debuff. Along with any attack from the thief that is blocked/misses.

I’m not sure I would tie them to any weapon skills. Even the skills with the longest recharge are much shorter than your average utility skills. Having anything cast Reveal too frequently would totally break stealth which isn’t what I’m after. I want lesser used utility skills with longish CDs to gain some additional functionality to make them worth putting on your bar. I also think that ANY damage causing reveal would be too harsh, but I would be OK with taking a certain % of damage causing it.

NinjaEd.3946:

BurrTheKing.8571:

All of the suggestions posted are pseudo-counters. There is still no reliable way to avoid the situation of a Thief being able to stealth just before getting downed and then using the downed stealth to be able to revive for free. There’s also the ability to stealth for excessive periods and essentially reset the fight. If they use Shadow Refuge at around 25% health unless you have a way to fear them or knock them out there’s not much you can do. I’ve used Skull Crack and Flurry to lock them down but even then at 25% they get a free Blinding Powder which allows them to buy even more time.

Since I’ve had to listen to “Play as a Thief (I actually have) and you’ll understand” so often I’m going to put this forward: If you haven’t played against a Stealth-Heavy Thief as a non-Thief class please do so. It’ll give you some insight as to why people hate fighting it so much. D/P is especially dull to fight seeing as it’s even worse than Warriors when it comes to using one combo over and over. At least Warrior’s combos are highly telegraphed.

You can’t aoe? I mean the thief is downed, best they can do is teleport once and it isn’t going far. If you can’t figure out what slot the block goes in there is no point in giving you toys then.

Many people have, there are only 2 stealth heavy classes btw. Also you can’t look at just how you play or just how others play, you have to look at both. Can’t speak for all since I don’t have a record of their play time, but I’m not undefeated on my thief, I’ve died and died a lot. Advice can come from the enemy’s perspective, as in they explain what others have done to counter them in w/e it was they were trying.

You should really open your eyes to the (viable) advice that’s been given not just in this thread but of the hundreds that swim in these forums. There is plenty to go around from both stealth users and non-stealth users. Thief is no more unbalanced than the rest, we all have class mechanics that are often abused (except rangers poor rangers).

Not every class has spammable AoEs and there’s also the matter of KNOWING that you downed them. If they are stealthed when you down them there’s still plenty of time for them to move. If you down them in SR you have anywhere in that circle + the teleport. If you down them with conditions after using them on the SR then they could have gone anywhere in that time frame. This didn’t used to bug me until I started encountering it more and more frequently. If it’s a Sword/Pistol Thief they can use the return on skill 2 while stealthed just before getting downed and you won’t know whether or not they did that.

This isn’t a problem with bad Theives, of which there are many, but with even a decent Thief they know how to do this.

All of the suggestions posted are pseudo-counters. There is still no reliable way to avoid the situation of a Thief being able to stealth just before getting downed and then using the downed stealth to be able to revive for free. There’s also the ability to stealth for excessive periods and essentially reset the fight. If they use Shadow Refuge at around 25% health unless you have a way to fear them or knock them out there’s not much you can do. I’ve used Skull Crack and Flurry to lock them down but even then at 25% they get a free Blinding Powder which allows them to buy even more time.

There are unblockble skills, and most pure immunity skills I would agree don’t offer counterplay but they also last for a very short duration and have lengthy cooldowns. I do think being able to stomp while affected by a 100% immunity skill like Mistform or Elixir S shouldn’t be a thing however, you can strip Stability but not those. Specified Immunities hurt highly specified builds but they still remain weak to w/e they don’t counter and popping multiple at once leaves you very vulnerable after.

Stopping a Black Powder Stealth is not as easy as you make it sound. When the Thief uses it they also blind their target. If you evade you have a VERY short window to interrupt them. If that you do get blinded you have almost no time to clear it and interrupt. If you don’t have a ranged interrupt then you have to use it in the field before it pulses or you’ll miss. As a Warrior you have to make them first use a stun breaker/shadow step, then pop zerker stance and lock them down then kill them before they can stealth again because otherwise they’ll just heal up and start everything over. It’s doable but the fight takes longer than fighting a tanky Guardian and the Thief can recover after goofing up where the Guardian can’t.

Since I’ve had to listen to “Play as a Thief (I actually have) and you’ll understand” so often I’m going to put this forward: If you haven’t played against a Stealth-Heavy Thief as a non-Thief class please do so. It’ll give you some insight as to why people hate fighting it so much. D/P is especially dull to fight seeing as it’s even worse than Warriors when it comes to using one combo over and over. At least Warrior’s combos are highly telegraphed.

BobbyT.7192:

BurrTheKing.8571:

BobbyT.7192:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Rangers are the ones who should have a large set of anti-stealth mechanics.
Thiefs => Stealthed Assassins
Rangers => Tracker

But rock paper scissors balance isn’t any fun

It’s atleast some balance in this completely unbalanced game. I would rather take a rock paper scissors balance than what we have now.

I wouldn’t, 0/10 wouldn’t recommend.

The game is RPS already though. You bring Removal to beat Conditions. You bring Stability to counter Control. You bring Blocks/Blinds to counter Direct Damage. It’s all just a more complicated version of RPS. You can try to fill as many countermeasures into your build as you can and then use them correctly or you specialize in one thing.

Stealth is the one mechanic in the game that has hardly any direct counter. Sic ‘Em is the only skill that can directly apply Reveal on an enemy and it’s not even that good of a skill.

You remove my conditions, I will re apply them, you block one of my attacks I got another one coming, you break or prevent me from going stealth, we’ll I’m boned.

Thing is stealth already counters itself will reveal, so why want more?

Because it’s a totally one-sided mechanic. In other games with stealth things are done differently, such as being perma-invis but once you attack re-entering stealth is difficult. With stealth on some specs, mostly Thief, have such high access to stealth that either the class has to change or you have to give players a way to disrupt it. Since players who play a class generally dislike direct nerfs it seems more positive to give the other classes options to at least disrupt them for a few seconds.

In some way it may actually buff hybrid builds. Since all 5 stacks are applied instantly (at least that’s what I think is happening), you can go Impale then use Rip right after. Rather than just leaving the sword in you are now encouraged to use Rip right after. It has lost utility as a cover condition but this still seems like less of a nerf and more of a change in functionality.

I might even consider using offhand sword on my power based S/Sh + LB build because I’ll get a bit of condi burst is addition to the heavy hitting Rip.

BobbyT.7192:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Rangers are the ones who should have a large set of anti-stealth mechanics.
Thiefs => Stealthed Assassins
Rangers => Tracker

But rock paper scissors balance isn’t any fun

It’s atleast some balance in this completely unbalanced game. I would rather take a rock paper scissors balance than what we have now.

I wouldn’t, 0/10 wouldn’t recommend.

The game is RPS already though. You bring Removal to beat Conditions. You bring Stability to counter Control. You bring Blocks/Blinds to counter Direct Damage. It’s all just a more complicated version of RPS. You can try to fill as many countermeasures into your build as you can and then use them correctly or you specialize in one thing.

Stealth is the one mechanic in the game that has hardly any direct counter. Sic ‘Em is the only skill that can directly apply Reveal on an enemy and it’s not even that good of a skill.

Now I know that this next patch is going to hit us pretty hard. In addition to multiple nerfs the majority of our new traits are pretty much worthless. Hambow will still be a strong build, it’s a shame they didn’t just nerf Merciless Hammer at the start since that was where everyone knew the damage was coming from. That being said I’m sick of that build and have started using alternatives. When it comes to runes I think I’m moving away from Lyssa and back to Hoelbrak and Melandru and maybe Ogre. There’s going to be tons of new sigil options as well.

1. Duelist/Roamer

Bow is getting hit AGAIN but the changes aren’t the end of the world. Pin Down will probably best be used with a setup such as Bull’s Charge or Flurry. Even with a 15% damage reduction Arcing Arrow will still hit hard. With Opportunist and Signet of Rage you should have a constant 72% crit chance. Once you master landing Final Thrust you’ll have a lot of angry victims. I’m even considering runes of Rage but that depends on how the crit damage change affects it.

2. DPS Axe

I started running this again recently as a joke…and then found it to be surprisingly strong. This was what tons of Warriors would run at launch and it was basically “try to kill them before you die” but with a decent heal and Zerker Stance the sustain is still low but MUCH better than it used to be. It’s better in WvW but even in PvP you’ll hit squishy targets for a huge chunk of their health. Catch a glass Thief and they die almost instantly. I have Sigils of Air because it looks like they might provide good single target DPS now. The other GS sigil could be Bloodlust or really w/e you want. The most important thing to know is when to put distance between you and the enemy.

3. Might Sharing

The empty Tactics trait is for Phalanx Strength, the only useful new trait.
This one will probably be best in WvW. The gear is up to personal preference because it’ll work with power or Condi. I’m seriously thinking Runes of the Pirate might sorta work as well considering “Yarr!” would give an extra stack. You should be able to stack crazy amounts of Might with combo fields and keep them up. You could also go triple shout as well.

So, what are you going to be running after the patch?

I am not asking for an excessive amount of Reveal skills, both of the skills I mentioned for Warrior have a long CD and I don’t want the debuff to last more than 3-4 seconds (which is the standard length).

In an average fight you would get to use it once.

Also, I’m not ignoring people but I have other things to do than respond to each and every negative post. Especially since most of them are “l2p” and other unhelpful nonsense. I clearly state my main because I know that it colors my views, but at least I’m up-front about this. I am not asking for direct nerfs to stealth, I am asking for some functionality on underused skills. While that is a indirect nerf it’s unlikely to actually change much considering most won’t swap out a skill just to counter one type of build.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

BurrTheKing.8571:

His list is also too short for Warriors. There’s also:

-Bull’s Charge

-Everything on Rifle except Rifle Butt

-Several Bow Skills

-Rush

There’s probably a couple more but there’s a lot of “can hit, but probably won’t” like Shield Bash. Warrior is probably the most un-MMO class in the game considering it isn’t overly reliant on having a target.

Bull’s Charge, all bow and rifle skills, and Rush can all hit a stealthed character. It’s either a fluke (you were aiming at something past the stealthed dude) or unlikely (you were firing with no target and hoping), but it is possible.

If you have no target before you use the skill you will go the full range of the skill. Yes, if someone is at the end they will get knocked down, but like that happens on any sort of consistent basis. It’s practical immunity even if it’s not full immunity.

As for Rifle, I have NEVER hit a stealthed target with an attack that wasn’t activated before stealth. A non-targeted attack shoots off at a semi-random angle rather than exactly where your character is facing. Again, physically possible but still practical immunity.

His list is also too short for Warriors. There’s also:

-Bull’s Charge

-Everything on Rifle except Rifle Butt

-Several Bow Skills

-Rush

There’s probably a couple more but there’s a lot of “can hit, but probably won’t” like Shield Bash. Warrior is probably the most un-MMO class in the game considering it isn’t overly reliant on having a target.

Phaeton.9582:

It’s all irrelevant anyway the building momentum nerf will make zerker unviable.

There’s no point discussing this IMO

I honestly don’t think it’s going to hit THAT hard. I’ve been having a surprisingly good time with just pure zerk 30/25/0/0/15 GS + Axe. It has much more sustain now just from Zerker Stance and a healing skill that isn’t terrible. It even works in PvP and if traited right you’ll have around 23k HP. Take a shield with your axe and you should have enough to jump in, burst someone down, and get out. It’s a shame we’re losing something that pretty much NO ONE was complaining about and most didn’t even know it was bugged but I doubt it’s going to kill zerk.

If you’re interested a few days ago I posted a suggestion for a rework of Arcing Slice here.

Besides the weak burst skill, the weapon is fine. The whole point of 100b is that you use it in combination with other weapons. Bladetrail is good if you set it up correctly and Whirlwind is an evade with good damage. Recently I’ve noticed that even Rush has been landing more and hits for around 4k with Berserker gear. I don’t want the mobility touched it is not hard to catch a Warrior with just a GS. Only GS+Sword has near uncatchable mobility but sacrifices a helluva lot of attack power and utility in the process. In WvW the Norn racial elites and Ele’s FGS are much faster. While you can do it more frequently with War GS if you have to run from fights that frequently then you’re probably not contributing much.

I do not hate stealth as a mechanic. I don’t like to play it but I like that it exists in games. How it has been done in this game is totally different than any other game. It’s traditionally used to set up a chain of damage that heavily damages a foe and if it gets interrupted depending on the game you’re going to have to slug it out or retreat and try again much later. It doesn’t work that way in this game and having no cool downs on attack skills complicates things even more.

It is not the fact that stealth exists but that it can be used so frequently. Warrior burst skills and Necromancer Death Shroud can also be used frequently and I’m sure some despise that but those are highly obvious and telegraphed abilities that a player can react to. The reaction to stealth is generally to wait until they make a move. You can throw out something if you have an idea where they are but missing means you just wasted a skill.

I’ve seen your posts for a while and I think my reaction is pretty justified because I generally find your posts very combative. I know I can do the same thing but I try really kitten hard not to be the instigator. I know most of my targets aren’t going to be popular but I try to avoid “nerf dis” in a direct manor and instead look for ways to improve the weaker parts of a class to fix. I never said that I expected Stealth’s mechanics be fixed in the OP. I was asking for weak skills to gain additional functionality to fill a gap in the game.

On that note I really like the above suggestion to make Goggles cast reveal because right now..the goggles, they do nothing!