Guild Wars 2

RiWiJo.7502:

Before the Arrow Cart Buff:

Defending walls against zergs was impossible because of the AOE thrown up on them from zergs shooting up from the wall base. Arrow carts, the only siege defense for this zerg AOE stratagem, were useless. People would just stand in the ring and fire 2 to 5 AOEs and then move back out of range a little. I guess this was great fun for a zerg steam rolling towers, but other than that it wasn’t very realistic and zergs were ruining the game.

This is your first mistake. It was not impossible. It wasn’t even hard. So many guilds have proven time and time again that it could be done. Having an arrowcart in those situation was already incredible powerful. It would provide for so much pressure on the enemies that your friends could just go and wipe them all.

If they buffed the arrowcarts to make defending more viable than Arenanet clearly had no idea how to play their own game because so many others were very good at it.

I’m sure doing the jumping puzzle is by far the slowest and most boring way to get badges.

Merendel.7128:

Aneu.1748:

The fact remains that siege is now defending a keep and not players! Previously it took co-ordinated defenders who knew what to do in order for a keep to not flip, it required both siege and players to fight off the attackers, now I could quite easily stick a dribbling idiot on an Arrowcart and it can turn most forces away and if one isnt enough I can build 12 on a single gate due to the increase in range also increasing the amount of AC’s that can hit a single gate! To anyone with a modicum of balance and sense this is obviously not following what the original concept of WvW was meant to be and it isnt one I or many others wish to be part of – Let us actually fight each other rather than blueball all the time.

Previously the only way to really defend the keep/tower was to either A) have a large enough group with the skill to roll up the zerg ball, or have a small group but enough smarts/time to setup a killing zone that will wipe the zerg ball as the run in the breach.

While option A is preferable often you cant have the coverage (outside T1)to intercept a mobile zerg before they breach and overwhelm what defenders are inside. The only major difference between option B and now is the small group can force the zerg off the doors with the AC’s instead of bumrushing the door/wall at point blank range. The attackers have to setup siege to take out the defending siege instead of facerubing the door. Guess what if your group of corordinated defenders does not show up the keep will still fall as the attackers pelt it from longer range. You can still go out and have your fight of skill vs zerg. Well unless your idea of skill was leap off the walls with heavy protection CD’s, AOE the daylights out of the zerg, and then dive back into the portal before they kill you.

I’m not getting what you are saying. You say that a small group could defend before yet it sounds like you are in favor of this arrowcart buff.

Also I don’t know why option A would ever be preferabl. Zerging is never the ideal solution, at most it is a necessary evil.

Serophous.9085:

Caliban.3176:

Serophous.9085:

Caliban.3176:

I agree that defenders need an advantage. They already had though. Defending was a lot easier than attacking every was. So what was the point of this AC buff?

Make bigger zergs? Great success
Give defenders an even bigger advantage than they already had? Great success
Have 40 people stand next to 5 others who shoot trebs and arrowcarts? Great success
Have some great guilds leave this game? Great success
Push the outmanned server down even further? Great success

BEST PATCH EVAH!

VoTF still here, patch fail.

I said some great guilds, not all. Thanks though.

well, at least then matches wont get stale and realms will face different people for once

People leaving is good?

Serophous.9085:

Caliban.3176:

I agree that defenders need an advantage. They already had though. Defending was a lot easier than attacking every was. So what was the point of this AC buff?

Make bigger zergs? Great success
Give defenders an even bigger advantage than they already had? Great success
Have 40 people stand next to 5 others who shoot trebs and arrowcarts? Great success
Have some great guilds leave this game? Great success
Push the outmanned server down even further? Great success

BEST PATCH EVAH!

VoTF still here, patch fail.

I said some great guilds, not all. Thanks though.

VOLKON.1290:

Pod.2769:

It’s not just T1 that has seen the meta change. I play on a T8 server, we don’t have large numbers to play with. It’s basically become a “Hey they are attacking ET, lets try and take a fortified tower while they are gone.” Then as our massive 20 man zerg PvD’s while we frantically lookout for people trying to get in, cries of “Don’t let anyone in!” echo out of our TS.

The gate is down to 30%

One guy gets through, grabs an AC. “Ok lets leave and grab a camp.”

Yay… fun.

Imagine doing something crazy, something really outside the box, like, oh… I don’t know… maybe destroying the siege inside before you knock on the door? An AC or two of your own, maybe a trebuchet even can do wonders with regards to clearing the way.

So a 20 people raid should build a treb on beforehand to take out an arrowcart in an empty tower? Sounds totally reasonable.

VOLKON.1290:

Yes, siege attacks a keep, siege defends a keep. You’re supposed to have the advantage as a defender. You’re also supposed to be smart enough to realize that you need to take out the enemy siege before you go and smear your lip gloss on the gate. One flash built treb with an accurate gunner can completely violate those 12 ACs of which you speak and they can do very little about it. Adapt your tactics a little.

Now, let’s address if this is in line with the concept of WvW as presented to us…

“Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.”

Lay siege, check. Raid caravans, check. Massive battles, oh yeah. Mighty weapons of war… still there. Please, don’t go trying to assert that what you want WvW to be is what WvW was intended to be or what everyone else wants it to be. It doesn’t matter who you are, you’re not that good. (That applies to everyone, not only you. Myself included.)

You don’t like it. I do. This weekend BG was holding Hills with walls and gates down, SoR in from the south, JQ in from the north, and they held out for hours on end because they were able to mount some crazy kitten defense. Many of us on TS in JQ admittedly were having a blast even though we were getting repulsed far too often. Of course, we had less than kind words for SoR who would take down the siege we built to take down the siege BG built, but that’s another story.

I agree that defenders need an advantage. They already had though. Defending was a lot easier than attacking every was. So what was the point of this AC buff?

Make bigger zergs? Great success
Give defenders an even bigger advantage than they already had? Great success
Have 40 people stand next to 5 others who shoot trebs and arrowcarts? Great success
Have some great guilds leave this game? Great success
Push the outmanned server down even further? Great success

BEST PATCH EVAH!

Terrahero.9358:

Yaro.3251:

Hebril Amolebin.9817:

ww2

Oh god, that’s a pandora’s box we do not want to open if we want this thread to survive
Do. Not. Touch. It. Walk away. Slowly.

Godwins Law, you cannot fight it.

Godwin’s law does not state that it will happen only that it becomes ever more likely as long as the discussion(thread) goes on.

WE DID IT!

Congrats everyone.

Preacher.9018:

Caliban.3176:

Preacher.9018:

Aveneo.2068:

We don’t need silly gimmick traps; what we need is an Asura Mega Laser. Can be built as an upgrade in the spire of Stonemist Castle and Keeps for 3000 supply with 12000 range.

Destroys all enemy siege and troops in a 600 radius AoE with 1 shot and deals massive damage to walls. Recharge time inbetween shots 10 minutes.

Structure Upgrades:
Tier 1: Build Cannons and Mortars – 90 silver + 1750 supply (merged)
Tier 2: Build Waypoint – 1 gold 50 silver + 2500 supply
Tier 3: Build Asura Mega Laser – 2 gold +3000 supply

We can have both Asura Mega laser AND minefields. We already have lightning bolt generator in Borderlands, Low Orbit Ion Cannon for EB would be a nice addition. The more possibilities for fun and tactics, the better.

Also, placing Mega Lasers in KEEPS in EB, would make people attack them more often, and not just leave them alone for majority of matchups and trade towers.

This is a joke, right? I’m scared you might be serious.

Never been so serious. Though buildable barricades and water platforms are still priority.

I’m sure there is some kind of minecraft MMO mod that you would enjoy. But please don’t let this happen to GW2.

Buildable barricades can only work if you make sure there is no possibility to abuse and even then it just gives another huge advantage to the server with the most coverage.

Preacher.9018:

That said, i don’t want Arena to cater to current bad state of wvw, even if it mean displeasing people just going for it for wxp and some fun fights, but rather want to see WvW to be perfected in a way they intended it from beginning. They should work to bring competition back, not just accept the fact that they lost it.

You don’t want Anet to cater to the bad state of WvW yet you are not against the arrowcart buff.

People really don’t care that much about wxp anymore, it lasted for 3 weeks and then most people stopped caring.

If you want competition back, they should revert this arrowcart mess. That way there is room for more fights. Those fights were where the competition was at. If you had the organization and skill to take on larger forces than your own it meant that you could free up more players to do other strategic stuff. That’s a fun implementation of strategy. Bringing the arrowcarts back to normal levels would not be enough, but it would allow them space to do discourages zerging. This arrowcart buff has to go before WvW can be ‘fixed’.

Preacher.9018:

Aveneo.2068:

We don’t need silly gimmick traps; what we need is an Asura Mega Laser. Can be built as an upgrade in the spire of Stonemist Castle and Keeps for 3000 supply with 12000 range.

Destroys all enemy siege and troops in a 600 radius AoE with 1 shot and deals massive damage to walls. Recharge time inbetween shots 10 minutes.

Structure Upgrades:
Tier 1: Build Cannons and Mortars – 90 silver + 1750 supply (merged)
Tier 2: Build Waypoint – 1 gold 50 silver + 2500 supply
Tier 3: Build Asura Mega Laser – 2 gold +3000 supply

We can have both Asura Mega laser AND minefields. We already have lightning bolt generator in Borderlands, Low Orbit Ion Cannon for EB would be a nice addition. The more possibilities for fun and tactics, the better.

Also, placing Mega Lasers in KEEPS in EB, would make people attack them more often, and not just leave them alone for majority of matchups and trade towers.

This is a joke, right? I’m scared you might be serious.

I don’t represent anyone besides myself.

There can be a lot of strategy even without siege. Going for distraction attacks, splitting up and flanking, baiting. Those are all the things I learned on SFR. Siege was being used, it was great, ballista’s and AC’s were great defensive tools and were efficiently used by many groups. Supply starving and tactical strikes on small objectives were no rare sight either.

Now it is all about standing still next to a couple of guys firing a treb or zerging with 60+ or waiting on an arrowcart until somebody tries to attack it.

The zergs existed before, but it was still viable to run in smaller groups. That last part has been destroyed in this last patch.

There were problems with the direction the meta was going before this patch. The patch however addressed none of those problems, instead it create more of them and made it worse.

I have seen that some people say they prefer this new kind of play but some have also stated to be very much against it. The goal is a balance between the two kinds and now that balance is gone.

Preacher.9018:

So much whining. It was a good change. Now they need to buff other siege weapons too.

Something terrible must have happened to SFR since we left because it is very hard to see how anyone who advertises www.pevepe.net in his signature really believes that this was a good change. I remember when the SFR community was filled to the brim with people who enjoyed good fights and actual balanced action.

This was a horrible patch and every day more people come here to say just that. The meta has really changed for the worse. The game has come to a stop, there is a stalemate. Things still flip indeed but only when there is either a huge zerg attacking, there are no defenders or there is a very long and boring siege. No way anyone could say that those results are something the game needed.

Still not 100? It looks like you need some help.

Someone said Vizu was cheating.
Someone said Desolation is nothing without IRON
Someone said SFR players are bad, the die against ranger pets

Discuss

/end of trollbait

Urrid.4593:

Hey, like 100 of those 2226 posts are in SUPPORT of this change. They need to think on it longer, it is clearly that important to them to ruin fun.

While I have been the MOST vocal against this arrowcart in the entire thread (probably game) I do have to say (for the sake of honesty and accuracy) that there were a lot more than 100 posts supporting the change. If I were to guess it would be between 800 and 1000.

Though the point remains. There is something wrong here.

Fix it quickly, every time I log into WvW it takes me longer to convince myself to start playing.

I’m sure some people from gunnars hold will be totally against this post (even though it is quite funny) as they gave RoS so much kitten for getting some guilds (without even asking for them)

OP, nice job, funny post.

I’m just helping you guys get to 100 pages. Carry on.

RiWiJo.7502:

Caliban.3176:

I’m getting the feeling that they are trying to kitten us off

Traps = yet another way to remove actual gameplay skill from the game.

At least they gave us some kind of warning this time.

Give me a break—this is great for WvW. World vs World, get it, large battles, siege and taking objectives; if all you want is player vs player skill then PvP.

Who does this help large battles, siege or taking objectives?
I want to pvp in WvW.
Large battles=pvp
taking objectives=pvp
even siege can be used to support pvp (like the old arrowcarts, they were very good at it)

Terrahero.9358:

And, how do we counter Traps? Will there be a Minesweeper kit?

OMG please tell me this is happening

GIVE ME MINESWEEPER

Goloith.6349:

Does ANET not have an economist at all? Where the hell is John Smith on this? Basic economics is clearly being ignored. ANET seems like they want the zerg and then they don’t want the zerg. There’s a saying “plan ahead or plan to fail” and ANET is continuing to fail in WvW.

Let me help you out ANET:
AoE Nerf (+ zerg)
Arrow Carts (- – zerg) annihilates all groups
WXP (+ + zerg)
Traps (+ zerg) – small groups are going to get robbed of their supply before they can ever take anything.
Reward (+ zerg)

Make up your darn mind. Do you want zergs or not (guess they do)? You don’t need to keep adding junk.

We want rewards for escorting yaks prioritized. We want another map possibly, we want a reason to sit at a tower and defend it instead of being there for hours bored out of our mind (construction mini game?). We want Ascended items for WvW. We do not want to do this crappy thing called PvE in this game. Other games do it much better.

Quit trying to dictate how players play and start listening to them, otherwise more of your players will leave.

Actually the Arrowcart buff is an incredible weapon that encourages zerging. It is quite obvious in the game and was not hard to predict, as so many people did the second it came out.

Xsorus.2507:

I love how everyone is ignoring the part about getting WXP from everything out there..I’m sure that’ll improve the game a lot grin

More to the point, Zerging already gives way more WXP over killing someone in a 1v1, now someone escorting supply dolyaks will get more WXP over someone actually killing another person in a fight.

Because those things were already in the previous patch notes.

Pavel.8531:

Defending was never hard, if you had siege and people in the tower/keep “prior” to the enemy force arriving, even before the patch.

Indeed, thank you.

Reborn.2934:

Caliban.3176:

Reborn.2934:

Aneu.1748:

Level 1 siege bunker removes 1% of the damage.

and level 5 reduces 5% . so ?

until now i and my mates near me never die from ac’s whatever ac force we faced . downed some , but rezzed inside combat .

He’s telling you how useless siege bunker is. 5% is nothing, it is not worth anything.

look you and aneu and the next guy that will come from guild Votf to quote me.

if until now after 7 months in the game we are not know how to avoid the damage or the usage of the skills , we must not blame arenanet because the did some changes to right direction about arrow carts.

i have a mesmser friend that had 100 blueprints of every siege except arrow carts …. now he has some , because now ac damage matters as an anti infantry siege .

the situation now .

i will put 5% @ siege bunker and someone put 5% to siege might . i will still survive because i am not pressing only the 1 key button and nothing else in the game. i will use mace,shield or focus to support the medium and light armor guys as a guardian and i will use wall of reflection or hold the line or any skill that will help my mates to survive of the ac damage until we successful place our sieges for the attack … then the try continues …. never stopping , else we will fail .

attacking siege structures like keeps and towers means the usage of siege to be important not useless ( where ac just scratch the armor of everyone like was before before patch ) , else ask from arenanet to remove the structures and make the www a wow arena ….

finally , this is what we want specially your guild Votf want ?

the wxp ranks give to the players that spend time in www the ability to be better than the other that just start playing and this is good. besides all , gw2 is a mmo and not bf3 or cod fps pvp game and character progression must matters..

before patch i could dominate a camp alone .now i can’t because i have not spend any wxp to the proper level of wxp rank. when i will spend and i still cant dominate them i will try to find a way to do it , not to blame because they did guards more powerfull….

this is how it goes in every mmo out there.

Wow, we were using arrowcarts before this buff already and we were using it to great effect because it was already so strong. Don’t know why your mesmerfriend did not have 100 blueprints of those. That was nothing short of a very big mistake on his part.

About your wvw character progression, listen to Genev, she is right. That is the opposite of what it was going to be. The reason leveling and gearing is so extremily easy is because it allows for people to quickly join WvW and be on the same level as the others. They took that away with the new arrow cart masteries. (The old ranks were completely useless, as they should be)

We enjoy having the structures in WvW. If those structures are there to get fights going instead of avoiding them.

Hyung.6140:

Caliban.3176:

Replace what fights? Most of the fights are gone already. I don’t see how anything they add that allows players to battle eachother besides the things implemented already, could help. It’s hard enough already getting players to fight you. We need people to start relying on their weapon skills and utilities not some extra gimmicks or some overpowered siege engines.

I get where you’re coming from.

For me, I have no problem finding good, exciting fights – plenty of weapon skills/utilities, and the occasional mixing in of some appropriate siege. I anticipate traps adding to that mix and providing more entertainment.

But I run in a group of anywhere between 5 and 20 people. I suspect that for larger groups good fights simply don’t exist – in the higher tiers it’s killed by skill lag/blob gravity, in the lower tiers there’s just no opposition.

This is in no way a criticism of any kind, just given that your complaints (which I’m sure are valid, I don’t mean ‘complaints’ in a mocking way there) don’t line up with my experience I can only assume it’s to do with the different things we ourselves do in WvW. If it is indeed true then I’m very sympathetic to your situation and I hope anet are doing things (reduce skill lag, add GvG, whatever else) that will improve it.

On that note I believe they’ve said that their culling guys are working on skill lag as the next priority so there is still hope!

Smart people, with actual posts that make sense, they still exist.

Thank you.

Hyung.6140:

As for traps… I see where you’re coming from, but think we need to experience them – and give it time to settle so we can come up with counters – before we decide they have no place in WvW. I really like the increased tactical potential that the idea has, and I doubt that they’ll in any way replace fights or remove the need for fights.

Replace what fights? Most of the fights are gone already. I don’t see how anything they add that allows players to battle eachother besides the things implemented already, could help. It’s hard enough already getting players to fight you. We need people to start relying on their weapon skills and utilities not some extra gimmicks or some overpowered siege engines.

I think I prefer the traps on 4chan.

Reborn.2934:

Aneu.1748:

Level 1 siege bunker removes 1% of the damage.

and level 5 reduces 5% . so ?

until now i and my mates near me never die from ac’s whatever ac force we faced . downed some , but rezzed inside combat .

He’s telling you how useless siege bunker is. 5% is nothing, it is not worth anything.

Terrahero.9358:

Traps have potential and if implemented properly can be a very cool addition to WvW. However, it sounds like its going to be another Defensive tool. And right now Defense is running away, cackling madly and insanely, screaming “just try and get in!”.

Really, the defensive aspect in WvW doesnt need another tool or buff. So i do dearly hope that one of those other things that hasnt been outed yet is a a means to more easily attack a tower/keep. And mitigate the crazy Arrowcart spam at the moment.

It’s a gimmick, it’s just one more reason not for us to play the actual game with our characters.

Guys, time to move to the newest thing they’ve added to ruin our WvW experience. TRAPS

I’m not even kidding.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Traps-Get-More-Out-of-WvW/first

AidanTaylor.3872:

Hey folks,

It seems we inadvertently outed (some of) our plans for WvW with the above linked page. While we are looking to extend World XP changes for WvW in a later content patch, it still needs some tweaking and therefore isn’t ready to be introduced in this one.

We can however officially let you know we are moving the jumping puzzle for EB into it’s own map, as this has been a much requested feature for our beloved siege fairing community.

Apologies for the hicup

This better be some kind of troll. Traps, srsly guys?

EDIT: shouldn’t be ungrateful. Thank you for moving the jp finally, thank you.

Anet, thanks for warning us about this before you actually implemented it. Now we can tell you to get it out of the patch, NOW. We need more ways for people to play the actual game with the character they spend time and energy on to level and gear.

There is no need for these little gimmicks and toys.

I’m getting the feeling that they are trying to kitten us off

Traps = yet another way to remove actual gameplay skill from the game.

At least they gave us some kind of warning this time.

I’m very much against number 2. The point was that anyone that was level 80 and had exotics (both things that are easy to accomplish) was on the same playing field as everyone else. There is no grind to be better than other players now. They have kind of added that with the ranks but most of those things were so useless it never mattered but now with the arrowcart rank abilities it does. Having 75 points in Arrowcarts makes you a lot stronger than a person who just joined WvW. I don’t think that that is a step in the right direction.

Sird.4536:

Caliban are you the guy I fought a few weeks back in T1 for that sentry point NW. You then invited me to group and said ‘I GOT THE SENTRY POINT,THATS ALL THAT MATTERS’. Teelie said that might have been you I couldn’t stop laughing.

It’s not me, Teelie told me that story as well. I wish it were me, it sounds like something I’d do.

Aneu.1748:

Svarty.8019:

Caliban.3176:

Kabooky.8071:

As a member of a small guild who does 99.9% wvw activites, we would like to thank Arena Net for giving us a reason to try and defend towers/keeps/forts. As previous DaoC players we appreciate what Epic wvw battles can be, and watching zergballs take keeps in under a minute is NOT it. Im sure there will be a vocal minority desperate for wvw exp who can only think of how they are inconvenienced by having to think, or use counter siege. But on behalf of the silent majority, I would like to say…. suck it up princess.
I would like to see the carts damage become immune on a keep door however as it seems silly that AC’s should take place of rams.

I’m very disappointed that a guild who claims to do so much WvW had trouble defending before as most guilds find it easy. It was very easy and if you really need these new arrowcarts to do it, I suggest you take a look at your tactics.

Is it just me, or have VoTF complained more vocally than anybody else about this change? I believe the OP has a very strong point, and to see a quality guild (effectively) telling him to L2P seems to tarnish their image somewhat in my mind.

I was actually the person who made this thread but Isac made another a couple of seconds before me so when merged his became the OP, the 2nd post in this thread was the OP.

A new thread just got merged with this one and the OP they were taking about is this one: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Arrowcarts-merged/page/43#post1976534

Svarty.8019:

Caliban.3176:

I’m very disappointed that a guild who claims to do so much WvW had trouble defending before as most guilds find it easy. It was very easy and if you really need these new arrowcarts to do it, I suggest you take a look at your tactics.

Is it just me, or have VoTF complained more vocally than anybody else about this change? I believe the OP has a very strong point, and to see a quality guild (effectively) telling him to L2P seems to tarnish their image somewhat in my mind.

I have indeed ben a very vocal complainer. I agree that I might have been a bit harsh saying that he should look at his tactics. I’ve been told to l2play in this thread so many times that I’m starting to mirror it and that is not right.

It does not change the fact however that defending was not hard, it never has been, many guilds have attested to that and if someone did find it difficult they were probably not being very efficient. Defending against up to a force three times as large as yours has never been very hard.

Kabooky.8071:

Im sure there will be a vocal minority desperate for wvw exp who can only think of how they are inconvenienced by having to think, or use counter siege. But on behalf of the silent majority, I would like to say…. suck it up princess.

P.S. I did not mention this the first time but how does one know who the vocal minority is and who the silent majority is? The only sample we have is this forum. It is not always a true representative and may be very skewed but it still is the only one. You can go back a couple of posts and see that in this thread there are far more people (unique posters, not actual number of posts) that are against the change.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Arrowcarts-merged/page/39#post1960435

@Mif

Why?
You say I should change my tactics to counter this new arrowcart. I know what that would do, it would make for a very boring game. I have looked at my tactics and see nothing wrong with them. (inb4 you call me a zerg or karmatrainer) I use my teammates to maximize our efficiency and we coordinate. We provide distactions and keep large forces occupied. We siege towers so we can get people to fight. We bait people with our siege. Those are some of our tactics. I see nothing wrong with them, we achieve a lot with them.

If however you were unable to defend a tower before the arrowcart patch, something that many small guilds had no problem with whatsoever, it does suggest that there might be a better way to do it.

Our tactics worked for what we want. Now we have to use tactics that go against what we want most of the time to get a tiny bit of fights (our goal). We prefer however that things go back to normal, I fail to see how there is a problem with our tactics then.

There was a warrior on Ruins of Surmia borderland just now (I forgot what server he was from) from a guild called FR, I think it was Fury Rising or something like that.

The reason I was /sitting was because I was just there for that last vista and because you stood next to me the entire time I was in combat and could not get it. That is what I was doing there. I really appreciate that you stopped attacking. More people should do that if a person /waves or /sits.

Kabooky.8071:

As a member of a small guild who does 99.9% wvw activites, we would like to thank Arena Net for giving us a reason to try and defend towers/keeps/forts. As previous DaoC players we appreciate what Epic wvw battles can be, and watching zergballs take keeps in under a minute is NOT it. Im sure there will be a vocal minority desperate for wvw exp who can only think of how they are inconvenienced by having to think, or use counter siege. But on behalf of the silent majority, I would like to say…. suck it up princess.
I would like to see the carts damage become immune on a keep door however as it seems silly that AC’s should take place of rams.

I’m very disappointed that a guild who claims to do so much WvW had trouble defending before as most guilds find it easy. It was very easy and if you really need these new arrowcarts to do it, I suggest you take a look at your tactics.

Heijincks.9267:

Zoel.9154:

Heijincks.9267:

Caliban.3176:

Again I see people saying that players needed tools to defend.

Could those people explain how all those guilds use to do it without those tools? There was no real difficulty in doing it.

There was no need for this change and it really did kitten up a lot of things. Overall attendance in WvW has gone down for my server and their opponents, easily seen through all the queues. (Though our dominance might have had something to do with that as well as our use of the Arrowcarts to spawncamp and farm)

Do you prefer it if WvW removed all walls, all gates, and all supply? That’s exactly why. Many people prefer it if WvW was played out like an actual war involving both siege and players, in which one cannot succeed without the other.

I guess you prefer it if it’s about just some gigantic gladiator arena.

Did you have problems using arrow carts pre patch? Arrow carts were overpowered before and did not need a buff; most people simply didn’t know how to use them. Now that they’ve been buffed by 80%, people use them more frequently because oh right, these things cost very little supply, are built like tanks, and 160 supply worth can do more aggregate damage than 100 players with 100% uptime.

You HAD to clear arrow carts against competent opponents pre-patch. The difference is that you could leave some up because the aggregate damage wasn’t enough such that you had to tediously outpace your opponents supply by a factor of 3.33 to 1 in order to beat carts.

Sieges of bay, hills, or garrison generally were at a minimum half hour to 45 minute affairs, which is a pretty reasonable time frame for a not-so-persistent battleground that resets from week to week. The three to four hour sieges currently required make the idea of doing that, well, unattractive. Hills has become the keep you take when the other server is asleep.

It’s just not worth waiting 2h to 3h for a fight when you can just go straight for someone’s spawn, their north camp, whatever, and just ignore PPT.

Overpowered before? Really? You’d probably have to stack a few of them together to make them most effective, otherwise the damage is simply ignored, or that the annoyance they provide doesn’t make them worthy of being a priority. Supply doesn’t always allow them to reach effective critical mass either.

To take something requires more supply to defend it. I think that’s true for all scenarios, even in real life. When you take the objective however, you become the defender, and whoever wants to take it thereafter must use more supply than you to take it if they want it, especially so if the objective wasn’t freshly taken. I don’t see this part as an issue.

Regarding taking major objectives, I personally prefer the longer time it takes to get it. Not that I like manning siege, but because I do not think of it as practical taking it quickly considering that it is a major objective. It is more rewarding after taking it because it requires so much more planning and effort. Plus, it makes it more valuable to defend.

You’re thinking to narrowminded of this again. The arrowcarts themselves would not defend any structure but they would make it easier for any group to do so. Two arrowcarts would force any zerg to start using heals and if you use the bleed it would require them to use some condiremoval skills. If you then use the cripple just before your defending force goes out (this force never has to be more than a third of the attacking force) you will easily wipe most of them. That is how defending was done. It was easy. There was NO NEED for that to change.

You say it is not practical to quickly take a major objective but the reason that objectives were easily taken is because most people refused to defend. It’s not that defending was hard, they just weren’t doing it.

A well defended garrison with 500 supplies would require more supplies from the attacking force to take, pre-patch.

I would still like to hear what this patch fixed, what it helped that needed helping.

It did NOTHING to stop zergs, it helps zergs.
It did make it easier to defend, but it was already easy enough before if you knew what you were doing.
I still haven’t seen any of the supply attrition wars I hear so much about and I don’t think I will because this AC is all about the zerg.
It does not make for more action, instead ppl run away even more and the game has gotten more boring.
It has not given us epic siege battles, just some guys pressing 1 on trebs or arrowcarts, nothing epic about that.

I’ll repeat this one again: Why would defending need a buff if so many guilds have been doing it succesfully against overwhelming forces before?

shiri.4257:

Revert the arrowcart damage to where it was before. Make the arrowcart damage as a guild upgrade that works when you claim a tower. Combination of skill upgrades and the guild upgrades should approach the damage of what arrowcarts are now.

If that buff would then only work for guildies then I think this would not be bad. Limit the amount of arrowcarts that can use this buff though (5 for tower, 10 for keeps, 15 for SM).

I do not think anyone would actually need the damage from this but it would give guilds the incentive to upgrade and defend something.

Hickeroar.9734:

I’m liking certain aspects of it and hating others. I’m willing to grudgingly admit that things haven’t been as bad the last couple days as they were at first, and some kind of balance seems to have been achieved.

I would just love to see open field combat ACs nerfed back to their original strength, and siege should be more resistant to ACs.

This new balance seems to be settling in and it is everything I thought it would be. You either bring a huge zerg to take anything or you die while unsuccesfully trying to provoke fights.

We tried flipping a camp with 7 people. Then 25 people show up and build 2 arrowcarts.

We see a group of about 15 enemies and try to fight with them, they run to the nearest tower and get on the siege.

This new balance takes all the pvp away from the game. It is really bad.

Troma.3250:

Caliban.3176:

Troma.3250:

And like i told GC early and on forum, this was my last CTA. Ever.

I don’t remember that, why would it be your last one?

Here was the post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Vizunah-Desolation-Seafarer-2-03-T1-EU/page/79#post1847145

The last words. Why, hmm because i used a lot of time and energy and i’m feeling a little empty, because solving internal dramas and keeping things alright drain “irl mana” too. I’m currently doing a big break. Add the sadness caused by TS attack, flaming and the most important thing, the lack of love given by anet concerning WvW.

In some months/years i will really regret that they never really understood us, our demands, and what the WvW could become…

It could be a real blast with leaderboards for players, guilds, bigger maps, without aoe cap and other things… but they are too much in other directions… their lack of a PvP player vision and lucidity concerning our true problems (except for the culling they worked very well) has killed slowly what could be the greatest RvR game.

Ah, what a waste my friends.

Arenanet, if you read us, you have the power to change RvR to be better. But it will soon be too late… everyone knows it. Moving and stoping guilds, and the mass of Guild Masters talking of stopping the game in private chat or messages is a strong sign. Even my old friends War Legend (WL) stopped gw2 today.

If i were them, i would open a public post by a dev and ask 5 top priorities for the community. Then i would take the 5 first that come repeatly (like removing aoe caps and bigger maps to force zergs split for example) and make it in order.

I think you under estimate a lot the diamond you made and failed to polish it, instead you made some random hit of hammer on it.

Wow, that is very very sad. After IRON there is now another great guild to leave. We had some epic fun fighting WL. They were really good. If any tag ever impressed me from Vizu it was theirs. Hunting eachother in EB and jumping on eachother was awesome. It was stressful and fun.

Never going to forget the floating banners either, live theorycrafting on a stream can lead to some very funny conclusions.

Troma, I hope you really are just taking a break. This game has lost too many good players and icons of WvW already. It cannot afford anymore. This goes for WL as well of course.

pejot.4806:

Iavra.8510:

Those carts are doing ouchies to my poor little asura mesmer…

I’m not really surprised :P Since last patch they have become Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything

So arrowcarts = 42 ?

Gab Superstar.4059:

I don’t agree with reducing the HP of gates. Entire maps can be captured in 30 minutes already which is incredibly wrong. Rather, Arena Net should go the opposite way. When you capture a Keep or Tower you should have to repair whatever walls or gates you took down, instead of having them instantly repaired. This would encourage the server who lost the keep to come back and fight for it, and the only way to “secure” it would be through winning in open field and controlling supply points.

I do like your suggestion to have King of the Hill style battles though, however, I would much prefer to have them in Stonemist, i.e. turn Stonemist into an open area without gates and have perhaps 5 capture locations throughout the castle (for example west, north and east gates & lower and upper floor). These locations would each award 5ppt, and while holding all of them your server would gain another 10ppt, so the total would be 35ppt.

Instead of having a megablob of 60 people hold Stonemist, it would have to break up into smaller groups to be successful.

About the HP on structures, it might seem counterintuitive but I’ve already explained how it would benefit everything. You can read through the entire thread, it is not that long (yet).

In a way however you are right in saying that you can fastcap everything now but that has more to do with the people than with anything else. Things are easy to cap because people refuse to defend, not because it has ever been to hard. The only defence people know now is call for the blob in mapchat.

But what if the blob no longer exists or is otherwise engaged? …

Again I see people saying that players needed tools to defend.

Could those people explain how all those guilds use to do it without those tools? There was no real difficulty in doing it.

There was no need for this change and it really did kitten up a lot of things. Overall attendance in WvW has gone down for my server and their opponents, easily seen through all the queues. (Though our dominance might have had something to do with that as well as our use of the Arrowcarts to spawncamp and farm)

Troma.3250:

And like i told GC early and on forum, this was my last CTA. Ever.

I don’t remember that, why would it be your last one?

Straegen.2938:

Now a small team can defend a keep against a larger force which was the point IMO.

That was already the case as many guilds have proven already, there was no need to buff arrowcarts for that.

LordByron.8369:

Kebab.4013:

Omg finally unbanned, wuhuu! Just wanted to add a little quote from Jonathan Sharp a game designer from arenanet:

We want to avoid “whack-a-mole” style balance. HUGH increases and HUGE decreases lead to meta instability, and thusly, we try to make multiple small tweaks rather than putting in massive changes that we have to later correct.

!

As an ele/mesmer player i will put that declaration near

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.!”

I assume that that is a jab at ascended gear. You are right, that was a mistake on their part. However, you are not a lot stronger with ascended gear as opposed to someone who has exotic gear. You can’t really predict the outcome by the difference between those gear tiers. It is still not ok what they did with the ascended gear but it is not that huge a leap from what they said as it is with balancing. The flat 80% buff with the AC mastery ranks just goes against the entire philosophy they have when balancing other stuff.

Aberrant.6749:

I’ve been with groups that have defeated 40+ assaulters with about 15 in hills… and that was before this last patch…

Indeed, defending never was that hard. It just required a little bit of organization. The biggest problem with defending was just that nobody wanted to do it. I believe there are many reasons for that and most of them have nothing to do with the difficulty.

1. It requires some organization and some initiative. Both things that randoms seem to lack. That is their good right, if they wanted more organization they would be in a guild. Can’t fault anyone for that.

2. It’s a reactive thing to do. Sitting in a keep waiting to get attacked is boring. Going out and attacking something yourself guarantees you a certain amount of action. For all you know you could be in that keep for 3 hours and never get attacked.

3. It’s not rewarding. The defense event is flawed. Even if you can hold them off you might not always get the event (have to kill things or repair) and even getting the event is worthless.

4. Sometimes it was pointless. Because the second you would leave your structure would get flipped. A guildmate once went out of Anzalias to help escort a dolyak and the tower was lost by the time he got back.

5. Sometimes the odds were overwhelming. You could be in a tower by yourself to get attacked by 50 players and a breakout event. There is no point in staying to defend that. And if ever it would be possible to defend against that on your own there is bound to be a very big imbalance somewhere.

To me it sounds like all the people saying defending used to be so hard, hardly ever tried it because of one of the aforementioned reasons. And only one of those things changed a little bit with the patch. It is now a little more rewarding because you can easily farm a lot of bags with those AC’s. It does however add that it now no longer requires skill to defend and it is not challenging anymore, that would be worse than not getting loot or rewards.

TL;DR Defending was never hard.