Guild Wars 2

XxTAFxX.6741:

Sure i got screenshots.
This is at 2am when we have 15-20 players on and this is every night.
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/908/gw033x.jpg

Like i said they only come out when the odds are against us.

Wow, I feel really stupid now. I thought you were sarcastic when saying I was right and that you were insulting the old SFR players.

I still don’t agree with you having insulted those players. But I see why you would think that and they do have that awesome presence.

This is why I shouldn’t post here anymore. See you guys later.

Qwixx.5923:

Caliban.3176:

Troma, I have great respect for you and the things you have done but this is far from what I remember. You can easily look up some of the old match-up threads and see that I wasn’t alone in that.

When SFR came up to T1 (I think it was in december) we were not a real superserver of guilds. We had some really good pug organization and some good guilds to complement that. The first time I saw 1 Vizunian, he had at least 40 of his closest friends with him. (This was when culling was still a thing so we had to run circles around them to try and count). This kept up for several weeks, the only Vizunians we saw had huge numbers with them or were running away from us. Vizunah Square will forever be the best server at playing the WvW game but that does not mean they are the most fun to play against nor that they did not zerg before it became popular.

Saying that the huge blobs and zergs were only a counter to the second coming of SFR is a blatant lie. I read most of this matchup thread still but usually I refrain from posting. However I could not let this go without saying anything, especially since I have come to expect better from Troma.

I’ll go lurk some more now.

3 primetimes a day (NA/EU/RU) and not a superserver… are you kidding me ?

I’m not, we hardly had any queues at first, even with those different timezones. PRX was the only NA guild and despite that they were really good and had a great impact. They have always been overvalued by their opponents from their time on SFR.

No, SFR was not a superserver. I even remember that people were making fun of SFR back then, saying that they would never make it.

This is quickly turning into a kitten contest again. That was not my point for returning to posting here. There is no point in discussing the old SFR anymore.

EDIT:

@Caliban.3176

Your kidding right.
Any server with that amount of numbers 24/7 can dominate.
(taking towers when everyones asleep for the points)

They have skilless players anyway,even when we had lower numbers compared to there 40+ zerg we was wiping them with ease more often than not.
I would not go as far as saying they are the best wvw players.
I would say they have the best numbers 24/7 thats all.
Btw Skill does not come in numbers.

They never had numbers 24/7. When I ran along PRX for some nights they were never alone. Never was Vizunah truly asleep. Most of the night was PRX and the Vizunah zerg playing cat and mouse with eachother.

Nice job on insulting those players. That wasn’t uncalled for at all.

This truly turned into a kitten contest, even before I posted it. Sad

Troma.3250:

I didn’t say that SFR 1 started first good old Caliban

The first big groups we met was Far Shiverpeaks with NuGs, ZDs, NoX. Anyway it was a lot smaller than now (like 40 people instead of the 80+ zergs we see now) but it was really fun to play against. I remember ZDs even named this the “Zergotron” !

The thing i wanted to be remembered is that we have adapted to enemy group. When i was vizunah map commander (august – november) in coordination with HuP/WL most of the time, it was exactly like this:

1) one raid “pug” of 35-40 people and me
2) one raid WL with 25-30 people
3) 1 or 2 commandos of 5 people
4) scouts

And same thing on other maps with another commander (like bagoras with Vizunians and FM coordination for example)

Thats the only thing i want to be remembered nothing more !

It sounded like you implied that the blob was a response to Deso/SFR. But you did not really say that and implications can be tricky. So I’m sorry for jumping the gun on that one.

I guess I’ve just been quite unlucky that I had to face your response to another blob server.

Troma.3250:

Ins.7139:

A common misconception is VS blobbed to win, they didn’t. When i very first fought them in T1 they had many guild groups running around doing their own thing and the usual pug groups. They suffered what all the superservers have and people bandwagoned there, most the guilds left and they were left with a PUG force against superserver guild groups. If i was getting farmed all night long i’d blob up to stand a chance and get some lootbags

Instead of crashing and burning they took a step back and took time to organise their PUGs. Every superserver that hit them only made them more co-ordinated and more organised after that and now they are a well oiled war machine that can hold their own and works perfectly using ingame mechanics anet designed. They didn’t create the meta or use lowly tactics to win, that was our doing when we would farm them all night

To VS this morning in EB thanks for the 2 organised fights and kitten to you Zilly you lil git, i’ll get ya next time :P

Ahhh, quoted for truth ! someone who remember the real situation, thank’s anyway you just make an error: our guild didnt left at all, we builded all this with them. In fact, Grand Cross builded the “pug” support to make all of us stronger ! =)

Troma, I have great respect for you and the things you have done but this is far from what I remember. You can easily look up some of the old match-up threads and see that I wasn’t alone in that.

When SFR came up to T1 (I think it was in december) we were not a real superserver of guilds. We had some really good pug organization and some good guilds to complement that. The first time I saw 1 Vizunian, he had at least 40 of his closest friends with him. (This was when culling was still a thing so we had to run circles around them to try and count). This kept up for several weeks, the only Vizunians we saw had huge numbers with them or were running away from us. Vizunah Square will forever be the best server at playing the WvW game but that does not mean they are the most fun to play against nor that they did not zerg before it became popular.

Saying that the huge blobs and zergs were only a counter to the second coming of SFR is a blatant lie. I read most of this matchup thread still but usually I refrain from posting. However I could not let this go without saying anything, especially since I have come to expect better from Troma.

I’ll go lurk some more now.

Urrid.4593:

Caliban.3176:

I made most of those …

I got a good laugh out of them. Thank you.

You’re all invited to make some of your own. There was a thread here but it got moved to the fan-generated content of this forum.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/fangen/New-Patch-Meme-Thread/page/2#post1953312

thiagoperne.7340:

Caliban.3176:

thiagoperne.7340:

Caliban.3176:

http://www.votf-online.net/index.php?/topic/4101-dear-arenanet/

That last pic is now dedicated to you. Congrats VcY.

Can’t believe someone actually took his time to edit and post all those pictures. It almost forced me to call this guy a looser lol.

I made most of those …

Congratulation

For some reason that hardly sounds sincere, but I’ll take it anyway. Thanks!

thiagoperne.7340:

Caliban.3176:

http://www.votf-online.net/index.php?/topic/4101-dear-arenanet/

That last pic is now dedicated to you. Congrats VcY.

Can’t believe someone actually took his time to edit and post all those pictures. It almost forced me to call this guy a looser lol.

I made most of those …

http://www.votf-online.net/index.php?/topic/4101-dear-arenanet/

That last pic is now dedicated to you. Congrats VcY.

Heijincks.9267:

Caliban.3176:

Heijincks.9267:

Heijincks.9267

Getting closer to realism doesn’t necessitate absolute realism.

My statement was extremely straight forward. I don’t understand how people could still misinterpret it.

I don’t think I misinterpreted it.

You said that one step towards realism doesn’t mean anything else has to change to come closer to realism. (loose paraphrase) That is true. I agree with you (it happens).

I just say that even though what you say is true, it should never be an issue.
I was trying to say that the argument for realism when a player should die from an arrowcart holds no more value than saying that a player should die from a greatsword attack because that is realistic.

Both are steps towards realism but in a perspective for this game that is meaningless because they do not account for balance or many of the other things that are relevant in the game.

I haven’t made any statements about balance. All I said to begin this discussion was:

Heijincks.9267

Getting closer to realism doesn’t necessitate absolute realism.

That’s all I said. This was a response to someone saying that greatswords should instakill anyone, as if putting realism in this game means that it must exactly emulate real life.

You were part of a greater conversation were someone did indeed make a suggestion and tried supporting it with the realism argument. I was just adding to the conversation, it was no attack, and I did not try to put in any words in your mouth.

Someone said something concerning realism, someone else replied to that, you then posted about that post. I then added to that if you consider both your post and that by the second person it invalidates the support the first person tried to give his suggestion by saying it was realistic.

(this just got way more complicated than it should have)

Heijincks.9267:

Heijincks.9267

Getting closer to realism doesn’t necessitate absolute realism.

My statement was extremely straight forward. I don’t understand how people could still misinterpret it.

I don’t think I misinterpreted it.

You said that one step towards realism doesn’t mean anything else has to change to come closer to realism. (loose paraphrase) That is true. I agree with you (it happens).

I just say that even though what you say is true, it should never be an issue.
I was trying to say that the argument for realism when a player should die from an arrowcart holds no more value than saying that a player should die from a greatsword attack because that is realistic.

Both are steps towards realism but in a perspective for this game that is meaningless because they do not account for balance or many of the other things that are relevant in the game.

Heijincks.9267:

Mizu.9387:

The problem with the “realism” argument is that everyone that is hit by my greatsword should expect to instantly die as well.

Getting closer to realism doesn’t necessitate absolute realism.

But it also doesn’t say what step toward realism is more valid than another. So basically you still have nothing. Realism has no place in this argument whatsoever.

Dawdler.8521:

Caliban.3176:

Hey, I was still very annoyed by some people saying that people opposing the patch were a vocal minority and that it was mainly VoTF.

Since when is 200 out of the thousands upon thousands of people playing GW2 not a vocal minority? Everyone do not make threads that say “All is well”. All of us combined is a vocal minority to begin with!

Either way, your breakdown shows that yes, the [vocal minority] community is indeed split on the matter. I am quite confident that Anet are capable of satisfying significant portions of both camps by tuning the damage and range of the arrowcarts. Everybody still wont be happy.

This is true but it was more than just that. In other semi-related threads people would refer to this one and then say that even here most people were in favor of the patch and that is was only so big because a minority was being very vocal. So it was more about the forum community than the entire in game community. It is not 20 people posting against another 100 and pretending to be more than that. In this subset of players it is definitely not a minority that opposes the patch.

Whether this subset can be a reliable representative of the entire set of players is another discussion and one that is pretty hard one.

P.S. I do thank that for 200 people to come on the english speaking forums and complain that something is definitely is wrong. Especially since a lot of these people speak for more than just themselves.

sostronk.8167:

Just accept it dude. Stop spending time categorising and counting posts on an internet forum and go think about how to adapt your strategies to the new build. Its here to stay regardless of what you say, so there is no point wasting your time on this kind of stuff.

Why would I adapt to something that is clearly broken? You make no sense.

Hey, I was still very annoyed by some people saying that people opposing the patch were a vocal minority and that it was mainly VoTF. I’ll grant you that no one has the amount of posts in this thread that I do (last time I counted I was well over 100).

I just decided to count how many posters actually supported each side of the argument. I did not count how many posts they made, only how many unique people posted here. (Please don’t bring up any sock puppet bullkitten)

I had to make 4 categories.
People supporting the patch. 105 Posters (also included were people who think the patch might have been a tad too much but still generally supported what they did to arrowcarts)

People who had a balanced response to the patch. This includes people saying we should wait, people saying that it should do no damage to siege but keep the damage to people. Also included people saying that for this to work we would need swirling back or other kinds of fixes to counter the new arrowcart. (Most of these posts had a general negative response to the patch) 73 posters

Then there were people who were just trolling, trying to be funny or just said something that had little or nothing to do with AC’s or WvW. (50 posters)

Then there was the vocal minority of people saying they were opposed to the patch. 204 posters

There were also several posts from people congratulating and supporting VoTF to put so much effort into this.

I did not actively look for guild tags but I have seen some and do remember some as well. This is just a little bit of filler information for you guys.

I only remember one guild tag that I knew that supported the patch [AFTL]

And there were a couple of guilds that opposed the patch or supported the opposition to it. Obviously VoTF but also RG, MERC, RE, RiOT, RL, VcY, IRON, siN, Coin, CHOO, Helm, Aegis, Nugos, BT, DsD, GD, Equinox, Immortalis, VK, HOPE, NOM and someone claiming all Piken Square guilds as well

P.S. small disclaimer I may have made some mistakes in counting but those would be insignificant (definitely no more than 5 on any category). I did not count Devon Carver, you are welcome to put him in any category you want.

P.P.S. This is not a poll, this is just a breakdown of the thread so far.

Ysuera Kypheni.5632:

Caliban.3176:

yanoch.7051:

graverr.6473:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I love the change of arrowcarts, now make catapults able to be usable outside of AC-range again

Buff trebs and catas 80 % now and give them 33% more range like ACs.Yup that willmake things even.

I agree with you but now map will be getting too small. Scale up the map of about 33%. :P

Don’t forget to increase range on all weapons by 33% and make all structures 33% higher as well.

Also buff all armor and damage reduction by 80% as well as all player damage to compensate for that and healing and vitality as well of course.

Now the game is balanced again and no need to nerf Arrowcarts.
Just buff everything else in the game as well.

Arrow carts are under-powered. Imagine a real-life situation: when you’re hit by three arrows, two in the chest, one in the knee, you’ll have little chance to survive.

Now, you got a whole arrow-shower, and you’re still alive. So I recommend to empower those ant-toys. And, if were are already here, I also hate when someone heals up magically in just a second’s time.

Bringing up real life is ridiculous it has no place in the game. Yes people heal up magically, there is magic in this game.

Arrowcarts were never underpowered.

yanoch.7051:

graverr.6473:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I love the change of arrowcarts, now make catapults able to be usable outside of AC-range again

Buff trebs and catas 80 % now and give them 33% more range like ACs.Yup that willmake things even.

I agree with you but now map will be getting too small. Scale up the map of about 33%. :P

Don’t forget to increase range on all weapons by 33% and make all structures 33% higher as well.

Also buff all armor and damage reduction by 80% as well as all player damage to compensate for that and healing and vitality as well of course.

Now the game is balanced again and no need to nerf Arrowcarts.
Just buff everything else in the game as well.

Terra Dactyl.2047:

Alekty.8706:

FractalChaos.6539:

You could say them, if you actually had any sort of proof that my conclusions are incorrect. Until you do, however, yes…best to remain silent.

Okay I’ll bite your lure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IArozAFqM9M

This video prooves that aliens exists just as much as your video prooves that ACs are fine.

So.. in light of this, I do believe that aliens on earth is of a more important matter than arrowcarts, what are we going to do about the aliens? So until you can give me a video prooving that aliens doesn’t exists I think you should remain silent.

Obviously we can deal with the aliens by building 4 arrow carts. Their advanced technology will be of little use against that.

Yes Arrowcarts > advanced technology.

I think even Phunk might agree on this one.

naphack.9346:

Caliban.3176:

Gab Superstar.4059:

I would personally throw up a couple of trebs at the bottom of south gate stairs. The only way they could counter that is with a treb on the turret east of the wall, which in turn could be easily counter trebbed by your trebs without changing direction through some simple scouting of said turret. Bumrushing wouldn’t really be an option either. The fall down would kill you if untraited, and knock you on your face if you are. Thus you can control any enemy coming towards your trebs as long as your hold the S-ramp and the stairs themselves.

As has been mentioned, once you get through outer Hills is a cakewalk.

Those would easily be countered by the new Arrow Carts from the top of the hill. Before you say that you would have arrowcarts as well, it would only take a couple of traited warriors to suicide to stop that from happening.

And in what universe is Hills easy to take once you are through the outer? If I’m missing some sarcasm here, I do apologize. But srsly? Inner Hills is easy?

actually, inner hills got hit hard by the nerf to the likes of swirling winds. A siege battle will now be about who has the most ressources and not who can hold out longer, spamming projectile blocks all over the place.
It will still be hard to take, but they will not be able to bunker it up forever.

They won’t? What about the chokes, what about the lord’s room? I’d like to see you take out that siege.

Aytrix.4059:

Caliban.3176:

DeWolfe.2174:

This thread is really getting out of control. Siege exists in WvW for a reason. A player with siege vs another player with siege is still PvP. Stop trying to argue and use the wiki as your weapon.

Maybe they buffed the AC’s because the percentage of GC builds is getting equally out of control. Now you’ll need to put some toughness and healing in the build. Maybe Arenanet is smarter than you give them credit for. They only made the game!

Srsly, GC builds? Those died at least 2 months ago. Try to keep up with the meta please. They sufficiently nerfed GC builds when they nerfed certain consumables.

I need toughness and healing in my build to deal with the old arrowcarts.

Man but I do love running into GC zergs… they melt so fast they can’t even get their l33t DPS abilities off before they are on their backs.

Wow, I can’t even remember the last time I saw one of those.

DeWolfe.2174:

This thread is really getting out of control. Siege exists in WvW for a reason. A player with siege vs another player with siege is still PvP. Stop trying to argue and use the wiki as your weapon.

Maybe they buffed the AC’s because the percentage of GC builds is getting equally out of control. Now you’ll need to put some toughness and healing in the build. Maybe Arenanet is smarter than you give them credit for. They only made the game!

Srsly, GC builds? Those died at least 2 months ago. Try to keep up with the meta please. They sufficiently nerfed GC builds when they nerfed certain consumables.

I need toughness and healing in my build to deal with the old arrowcarts.

@Amelia Knox:
Thank you for your input, that is the kind of problem we have been trying to bring across this entire time.

Gab Superstar.4059:

I would personally throw up a couple of trebs at the bottom of south gate stairs. The only way they could counter that is with a treb on the turret east of the wall, which in turn could be easily counter trebbed by your trebs without changing direction through some simple scouting of said turret. Bumrushing wouldn’t really be an option either. The fall down would kill you if untraited, and knock you on your face if you are. Thus you can control any enemy coming towards your trebs as long as your hold the S-ramp and the stairs themselves.

As has been mentioned, once you get through outer Hills is a cakewalk.

Those would easily be countered by the new Arrow Carts from the top of the hill. Before you say that you would have arrowcarts as well, it would only take a couple of traited warriors to suicide to stop that from happening.

And in what universe is Hills easy to take once you are through the outer? If I’m missing some sarcasm here, I do apologize. But srsly? Inner Hills is easy?

Terrahero.9358:

“ow look, people are moving around in a large army across the map! That is such mindless zerging and totally not the intent of a large pvp map with multiple hard to take objectives that require the combined effort of a lot of people.
Why dont you rename it to zerg wars! (ha im so witty).”

Whats next, you’re going to call up the national history and tell them to rename the Holy Crusades to the Holy Zerging?

Jerusalem was playing in T7 back then and everyone knows that any group with more than 8 players is a zerg in T7. So technically the crusaders would be a blob. So the Holy Blobs.

yw

Come on guys, we need more fan generated content, we are all fans of the Arrow Carts, aren’t we?

I posted about all the memes I could, your turn now.

Sylosis.7125:

Caliban.3176:

Just a small point about the siege despawn timer. I think it serves a purpose against griefing. You wouldn’t want random rams on tower walls holding a siege limit spot for hours and hours.

I agree, my misjudgement is due to trying to defend t3 towers and keeps commanding 5 players against 60 viz with unlimited seige.

I know your pain…

Alekty.8706:

FractalChaos.6539:

You could say them, if you actually had any sort of proof that my conclusions are incorrect. Until you do, however, yes…best to remain silent.

Okay I’ll bite your lure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IArozAFqM9M

This video prooves that aliens exists just as much as your video prooves that ACs are fine.

So.. in light of this, I do believe that aliens on earth is of a more important matter than arrowcarts, what are we going to do about the aliens? So until you can give me a video prooving that aliens doesn’t exists I think you should remain silent.

I’m sorry, but can you really say that Aliens are more important than arrowcarts right now? Don’t be ridiculous. Aliens aren’t OP, arrowcarts are.

Just a small point about the siege despawn timer. I think it serves a purpose against griefing. You wouldn’t want random rams on tower walls holding a siege limit spot for hours and hours.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Originally I would of said the arrow carts have a lower AOE cap, but that promotes zerg gameplay.

Actually that is not exactly true. A lower AOE cap (let’s say 30 people instead of 50) would increase the efficiency of all groups of 30+ so you could say that anything from 30+ is a viable and strong attack force because of that. Now a viable and strong attack force is 50+. So the lower AOE cap would make it possible for smaller zergs (everything between 30 and 50) to count as a formidable opponent as well.

However because it is so late in the game already the zergs are already running around at their regular size, I do not think that they’ll start running around with less people. Instead they’ll do the same thing and use the advantage that is given to them even if they are a huge group.

So basically it is a little more complex than what you were saying. It would help the huge zergs if caps were lowered so that is bad but it would also open up the option for slightly smaller groups to roam around. So they would have to find a compromise that is somewhere in the butterzone.

There was already an established siege cap, it was not perfect but changing it would be a hard thing to do without breaking the game. It could only be done through very small changes (change the cap for 2 people at each patch) and those changes would have to be evaluated every step

So it is pretty much like with the arrowcarts. They could change the damage (even if I did not think there was a need to) but just not by 80% + 25% of 180%= +125%. And let’s not forget that they’ve also added a lot of range. Why could they not have just buffed it by 10% and see what happened? There would be way less backlash against that. I would still think it would be a step in the wrong direction but at least it would prove that they are prudent and don’t just randomly give away crazy buffs.

P.S. This was a simplified way to explain it, I know everything becomes increasingly more complex as there more than 1 arrowcarts. It was just to get my point across.

Reann.9480:

Yeah, I kinda meant it as a sarcastic comment since we do not know what the “pro” guilds who are happy with this new “challenge” still are. I don’t know any, but I’m no “pro” so…

I know you meant it sarcastically but others have been using comments like that to discredit us and support this ridiculous buff.

Reann.9480:

I feel fairly certain in saying that the guilds, which might not be as “pro” as seems to be the requirement in this thread, in Piken Square are all hating this change.

Forcing everyone to blob up to do hours of boring siege warfare, requiring skill or not, is no fun to the small-med guilds running around the field in Piken used to taking on the odds.

There never was a requirement to be “pro” and no guild has claimed they were pro.
I can understand how the patch destroys it for your guilds and I really feel for you. I’m glad that you speak up here.

FractalChaos.6539:

A very loud and strident minority of players has been freaking out about this AC buff since the patch was announced let alone deployed.

Not exactly true. A lot of players and their guilds have expressed concern, it is not really a minority. It is just the minority that kept posting and complaining (mainly me).

use Trojan Horse

Guys, can we please freeze this thread while I’m sleeping. I really hate missing out on all the fun.

P.S. AC’s are OP

Mif.3471:

Teel.9036:

So IRON stops playing competitive WvW and makes their “goodbye thread” on this forum and ANet directly deletes it, nasty.

Caliban.3176:

I just saw a post (that has already been censored by the lortnoc egamad team of Anet) saying that IRON is quitting, partly due to this kitten up.

“I quit” posts are against the forum ToS.

But hey, lets ignore the facts and dress it up as something it isn’t to support the VotF anti arrow cart QQapalooza.

What fact did I ignore?

I just saw a post (that has already been censored by the lortnoc egamad team of Anet) saying that IRON is quitting, partly due to this kitten up.

That is a sad, sad thing. They were an awesome guild. They would do fun stuff to troll the frenchies (le iron blob) but they were mainly a capable guild that pulled of some really impressive stuff. They were one of the main forces behind a server that stayed in T1 for a very long time. This is sad, very sad.

I hope you guys respect this and don’t start posting things like AC beat the blobs and zerglings because if you had ever run against or with IRON you would know better than that. I have done both and know for a fact that the entire WvW community is the loser in this scenario.

Wow, it seems like if I’m not here, other smart people take over and try to take some sense into you guys. Hope that some people actually know how this game works is restored, despite all the examples of people not understanding competitive play.

graverr.6473:

I can easily show anyone at least 20 spots in any tower where acs CAN’T BE HIT by trebs or outer siege.Argument invalid.Telling ppl to l2 siege while you lack in very important knowledge about is pretty funny.

There is no invulnerable siege in this game. If you don’t know how to take it down it is just your own lack of knowledge and not the game’s fault.

Yes I can also build 6 arrowcarts in SM and you would need at least 3 trebs to take them all down. Not very balanced if you ask me.

Jski.6180:

@ Caliban.3176

For you situation:
The thing is if the attking team lets the defining team to dig into there keeps and towers (letting them make full upgraded walls and doors) you will have a hard time getting into though keeps and towers for the attking team. Part of WvW is to hit and run on keeps and towers and run them out over time.

I agree with this. But this patch has changed that, now you defending teams are more digged in the second they build an arrowcart. It is also a lot harder to do hit and runs because you basically need a treb to do that as that is the only good way to get the arrowcarts down. Using an arrowcart yourself won’t work because with the added damage they will destroy your blueprint very fast and the arrowcart in the tower always has the jump on the one down on the ground.

I think what is very important to remember is that everything before the patch was already perfect for what it seems like you want WvW to be. And this arrowcart buff does not take any step towards splitting up people.

Raf.1078:

Mif.3471:

Heijincks.9267:

Factor in that practically 50% of the anti-arrow cart posts in this thread are from VoTF members.

After 5 minutes spent with Ctrl+F, I can tell you that 193 of 1316 posts are from around half a dozen VoTF members. And that’s only the VoTF members that advertise it in their signature…

It makes it pretty clear that this thread does not represent the opinion of the greater WvW community, and is nothing but a campaign run by a small group of posters to get their way.

Perhaps VoTF is sitting on a pile of now useless golems?

Funny but we hardly ever used golems. We prefer using hammers and swords and daggers and even foci. That’s just how we roll.

Jski.6180:

Lets take this one at a time.

@Caliban.3176
So the idea of when things become harder for zerg makes things harder for small group is true to a point but when you have small group you can hit more then one places at a time. Where a zerg can only hit one target at a time. In effect its how you want to brake down you power do you want to put it into one push on one target or do you want to put it on more then one target knowing that you will fail on a few of them but you still can make ground on the others. This chose should be in the game and this chose is also related to defining too.

I like this, this is a decent conversation.

Yes you are right you can split your forces easily. The problem that arises however is that the balance between defenders and attackers is so skewed now that it is likely that each tower any of your small groups go to will have defenders that are capable of holding back your small group. Let’s take EB

I’ll make an example using completely fictional servers and for the sake of simplicity one of those servers decides not to engage in the fights and they have SM.
If by a coincidence any server name relates to a real server, then I’m very sorry, it definitely wasn’t intended that way.
so you have 1 server called Seafarer’s Rest and they have a very strong guild presence, let’s call them SFR for short
And there is another server called Vizunah Square, they are great nightcappers and can mobilize pugs like no others therefore they blob like no others as well
the third server that doesn’t participate is called Elona’s Reach.

(don’t ask me where I got these names, I just have a very vivid imagination)

Both SFR and Vizu have 90 ppl

SFR sends out 4 groups of 10 and 1 of 20 they each attack a tower and the larger group attacks the keep
They also keep 2 players in every tower and 5 players in the keep
That leaves 17 people, 5 of those have fun flipping camps and 12 of those idiots go to JP

Vizu keeps 3 defenders in every tower and 6 in the keep (that’s 18 defenders)
they have 5 people flipping camps, and 12 in the jp
that leaves them with 1 big blob of 55players

What happens if they start playing? Those 3 defenders vizu has in every tower can keep the small parties that sfr sounds out away and the other 6 have no problem defending the keep

But on the SFR side what happens is that when the 55+ blob attacks, the 2 players ask for reinforcements and about 6 go ahead to help defend, 3 of those make it inside. So SFR is attacking with an numbers advantage of X5 but vizunah is attacking with a big blob that has a numbers advantage of X11. The new arrowcarts may be very strong but even they have their limits.

Let’s try to reexamine that and make the arrowcarts less strong. With arrowcarts being less strong what would happen is that the SFR teams of 10 would have a 50-50 chance of getting in. So vizu would lose at least 2 towers and maybe even a keep. SFR however has a 100% chance to lose 1 tower and maybe even another, depending on how coordinated their defense is.

That is how I see it. That is why these arrowcarts kill small groups more than they kill zergs.

I am drunk now so I’ll stick to reading for a bit

Heijincks.9267:

Factor in that practically 50% of the anti-arrow cart posts in this thread are from VoTF members.

couldn’t resist.
7% of posts are mine

yw

Jski.6180:

@Caliban.3176
So now that a few ppl can kill many ppl means its more zerg friendly? Do you even try to think about what your saying?

I understand why you’d think that, it is a little counterintuitive but try thinking like this.

Now it has become a lot harder to mount a decent siege because defenders are now overpowered with arrowcarts. So 10ppl teams have way less use because it is harder for them to do anything.

It is also a lot harder for the big zerg, but it is easier for a zerg than it’ll be for a small team.

So it just became harder for small teams and harder for zergs but zergs still don’t have it as hard as small teams. Therefore zergs are still better than small teams. It even scales up beyond that. It used to be doable for 50 pugs to take a keep from 25 pugs. Now it is hardly doable for 50 pugs to take it from 25 pugs. It is however doable still for 75+ pugs to take a keep from 25 pugs. Thus it encourages even bigger pug zergs.

I am going to try and not respond to this thread for a while unless anyone actually brings up new arguments in favor of this patch. I have read some arguments that make it sound positive in that niche situation but overall the AC buff is still obviously bad for the game.

To ALL people that said defence was underpowered or at a disadvantage before I must say that you were making some mistakes then. It was very much doable to hold of enemies that severely outnumbered you. It required a little bit of skill and coordination. 30 vs 100 while defending a keep was not unheard of nor was it unlikely that the group of 30 would win. Arrowcarts were often used in these defences because they were very effective.

That was back when skill and coordination were rewarded with results. Now the game caters to bad tactics and lazy players. The arrowcart buff rewards zerging and discourages pvp encounters and action.

spconder.2489:

Hickeroar.9734:

spconder.2489:

graverr.6473:

spconder.2489:

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no?

Substantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.SUBSTANTIAL ADVANTAGE not WTFPAWN GODMODE I can deal with dodge ,i can deal with being oneshoted ,but i can’t deal that 1 ac = rams not usable.

Rams getting destroyed? Have a guardian put a bubble over them. Problem solved.

Guardian bubbles don’t protect against arrow carts. They’d have been used all along if they did.

Huh, thought they did. My mistake.

Now that I tihnk about it, that doesn’t make any sense. Why would they make ACs unblockable?! That just seems… stupid.

It has always been like that. AC’s should not be blockable, they should just deal reasonable damage and apply pressure to groups. You know, what they did before this ’’gamebreak patch".

Imagine AC being classified as projectiles. 1 Feedback would blow it up, you would have to be careful not to hit a wall of reflection or an engi. And so many skills would stop it completely. That would be broken as well.

Lance.5892:

JudgeD.5673:

How about this?

I used to fight zergs too. Than I took a Line of Warding to the knee…..

dodge roll…stability…going around it…teleport…among others…

don’t mind him, he doesn’t mean that. He knows dodge rolls don’t work.

Also that would have been a good thing to kitten about if Lines of Warding didn’t get nerfed. They used to last twice as long.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Caliban.3176:

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Lol @ ad hominem attacks for players that disagree with you, good arguments should stand on their own. Not require you to attack the opposition.

Oh yeah, and all those posts saying we are mindless zergs and blobs and karmatrains and that we should l2play were not ad hominem?

I trie to refrain from going to ad hominems but he had no arguments that weren’t discussed already, he was just plainly trolling. I would never do that to anyone who is even remotely trying to have an adult conversation.

Notice that I don’t indicate a bias on either side in my post, that you decided to be defensive about it says enough. There are plenty of personal attacks going on on both sides, they aren’t adding anything to the thread other than bloat and most likely causing devs to ignore the thread entirely (I know I would if I were them).

I was defensive because you posted that immediately after I did just that.

I know I was wrong but sometimes even I make mistakes when people do their best to annoy me.

Big shock, I know, I’m not perfect.

I apologize.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Lol @ ad hominem attacks for players that disagree with you, good arguments should stand on their own. Not require you to attack the opposition.

Oh yeah, and all those posts saying we are mindless zergs and blobs and karmatrains and that we should l2play were not ad hominem?

I trie to refrain from going to ad hominems but he had no arguments that weren’t discussed already, he was just plainly trolling. I would never do that to anyone who is even remotely trying to have an adult conversation.

FractalChaos.6539:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

THANK…FREAKING…YOU!!!!

This isn’t “PvP”; it’s WvW. It’s supposed to be about attrition, sieges, defenses. If you don’t care about that part of the game and only want to kill players, go play sPvP.

You know, the game mode Anet included for those who like to kill players without all that bothersome siege stuff?

Valid replies were given to that post you just quoted. Please read those instead of trying to troll.

2/10

spconder.2489:

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no? Knowing this, who in their right mind would walk up and try to PvDoor a fort? It doesn’t matter how many people you have, it only takes one person to drop the pot of burning oil/tar on your head. And boiling tar tends to leave a slight rash.

I totally agree with this. It is great that this was never a problem before, keeps and towers were hard to capture if defended. Many keep sieges have failed an hour or 2 of work. There was no need to change anything about that.

FractalChaos.6539:

Tier One, which is meaningless, since a server “going up in tiers” relies only on how many guilds it can recruit and what kind of coverage it can field, not how skilled the players on it actually are…

From no on this is no longer true. Now it will matter how many people a server can put on arrowcarts, so the bigger server still has a better chance. They just need even less skill now.

hooray

If only Aneu worked in Seattle, we wouldn’t be dealing with this crap right now.