Guild Wars 2

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

Then you are a good commander and will have succeeded where others have failed. I personally would love to try that and I’m sure it would be a good fight. If you are sure that you would win, I think you are overconfident.

Not saying it is impossible for you to take hills, I’m saying it is not a sure thing. We’ve proven that before.

Few things are ever sure, I grant you that completely. I could be 100% wrong about this (although I really, really sincerely doubt it). That’s the fun of it, though, is it not? Not being certain that you’re going to win, snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, etc..

WvW success is still most easily (and reliably) achieved when you attain a certain critical mass of players, though. When you reach that certain point (and I think 100 PUGs qualifies), you’re no longer an army or a fighting force, you’re a steamroller. I’ve seen it done -and done it- with far less. That’s why all this whining annoys me; it can be done and it’s a helluva lot of fun, but it looks like most people are just balking at how long it takes.

I’ve seen zergs with 100 people die loads of times. It is far from a critical mass. I would say that critical masses only form when the groups have a decent composition and work together. The critical mass in those groups is about 30.

It is extremely rare for those groups to die against a single enemy zerg of only 100 people.

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

What server are you on, if you can organise an entire map then let us know, we will take you up on that.

I’m on SoR; enjoy the ridiculous queues. Now THERE is something Anet should be focusing on. =((((

Ok, we’ve beaten 100 SoR’s already, we can do it again.

FractalChaos.6539:

TyrDaishi.1057:

FractalChaos.6539:

sostronk.8167:

“…they have tunnel vision and the karma train mentality built into them…”

Thank you. My faith in the average gamer is moderately restored. It’s nice to see someone grasps the real problem here. The real reason behind the griping is that “MY KARMA AND WXP PER MINUTE IS OFF BY 12.731% NOW ANET SUXXORZZZ!! I WANT MY FAST EASY KARMA BACK!!!”

There is not one of the many well known and respected Guilds that Caliban and I mentioned caring for wxp or karma.

You are missing the point of what we are trying to say.

We want WvW to be hard, we want WvW to be a gamemode where you need to work hard to achieve something. We are just not satisfied with the methodes that where used to do so.

One of the many reasons is that there are literally hundreds of suggestions made in these very forums to bring a better experience for all gamers in guild Wars 2, which are getting ignored so far. And keep in mind that the suggestions vary from 1vs1 to a full out large scale battle 100 vs 100 vs 100.

I’m not a big fan of the cult of personality that seems to spring up in videogames. I never heard of those guilds you mentioned, and I don’t care in any case. Their thoughts and opinions are no more important than anyone else’s. More than 3/4 of the time, clashes with this or that “uber skilled WvW guild” in the open field culminate with the realization that they’re pretty kitten ordinary.

They’re just really good at PR.

It’s not about whether you like us or think we are good. It’s that you were wrong about the way you judged us.

And even if you think we are ordinary our opinion still matters, just as much as yours does. But these guilds usually have a lot of experience in the game so it is likely they might know what they talk about. It gives people a framework to put those posts in. It also shows numbers. These guilds range from anywhere between 20 to 300 members (though most probably float around 100 active members with peaks of online members of about 50-60)

I really feel like I’m connecting with some of these people. Some of these bonds are really important for me now. I love meeting people who have an inkling of an idea how this game works.

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

I understand and that is why we don’t do it. We use the objectives to get those fights and it provides for more things than just deathmatch fights. You get ambushed while building trebs or you ambush people yourself by baiting them with a seemingly undefended tower. We might not play the ppt game but we use the tools that the ppt mechanic gives us to make our time in this game as enjoyable as possible.

I do not believe that Anet actually intended any specific concrete kind of gameplay just that they give us tools and we use it how we see fit.

Lance.5892:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

this!

I don’t know why we try anymore… =(

Because it’s not like we can play balanced and normal WvW anymore.

TyrDaishi.1057:

“We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.”
- Caliban

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz_gzUxfYjg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgNbrzsbcwA

Couldn’t have said it better. Thank you for the visual.

Axle.5182:

Why is it that a larger than average guild raid such as VOTF should find themselves at the head of this debate?

Now im not intentionally trying to be rude here but it’s obvious this patch has kittened up the way you utilise your raid, but was this not the purpose of the AC buff to assist smaller forces with fighting against larger groups?

It’s a catch 22 people complain about zergs everywhere but any fix will of course then change reward and success in large guild raids also.

What can we do? Anet gets it’s balls chewed no matter what it does because every change will always effect someone in a way they don’t like it.

Nerf heart seeker and stealth no one will play thief

Nerf rewards for server zergs like Vizunah in an attempt to break them up then the French go berzerk along with many of the large guilds in the game also.

I don’t know how you would be rude, I don’t really get what you are saying.

If the AC is supposed to help smaller forces against larger forces then it would be here to help us. Fighting bigger forces than ourselves is basically what we do. So if this patch is meant for us and we totally hate it, doesn’t that make this patch a fail?

We usually run with 30 and on reset 40-50 (that would be larger than average).
Most guild groups run between 20-40 and most pug groups have 50+.
I do not get what you are saying.

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

I know for a fact that members of big WvW Guilds from Elona’s reach like Anima Immortalis, Aegis, GD, Equinox, Galleon and many more are thinking the same about this joke of a patch. I would bet that our German friends from Kodash like KOA, fx or BOTS are thinking the same.

That is great and I encourage them to all voice there concerns in here because apparently those opposing the patch are now being labeled as a vocal minority.

You are. The one and only complaint I hear from you and your ilk boils down to “It’s not as fast as it was before”. Irrelevant noise.

Where did we say something is not as fast as before? We don’t even care about that. I’m sure nobody in our guild would mind if we did not cap a keep or tower for the next 2 months. They would mind if we did not have any real and challenging fights, that is what this patch took away.

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

OK, can we all stop mentioning karmatrains?

There is no reason to karmatrain, because why would anyone want karma?

Same thing goes for badges and wxp (though now I would like rank 75 to get godmode on AC)

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

Then you are a good commander and will have succeeded where others have failed. I personally would love to try that and I’m sure it would be a good fight. If you are sure that you would win, I think you are overconfident.

Not saying it is impossible for you to take hills, I’m saying it is not a sure thing. We’ve proven that before.

FractalChaos.6539:

sostronk.8167:

“…they have tunnel vision and the karma train mentality built into them…”

Thank you. My faith in the average gamer is moderately restored. It’s nice to see someone grasps the real problem here. The real reason behind the griping is that “MY KARMA AND WXP PER MINUTE IS OFF BY 12.731% NOW ANET SUXXORZZZ!! I WANT MY FAST EASY KARMA BACK!!!”

I’ll give up all my karma, loot, badges, xp, wxp (never wanted that anyway) for the next 2k hours of my playtime if I just get reasonable arrowcarts back.

FractalChaos.6539:

Snorcha.7586:

I think it’s not only the buff to arrowcarts, but also the removal of any way to defend against them, IE. Swirls etc. Was anyone really complaining about swirls?? really?? It added a tactic and also gave the focus a reason to be used… At a loss with this patch.

Yes, elementalists were complaining about swirls…because it pigeonholed them in a very boring, unrewarding role.

By the way, the most common complaint I heard in WvW during sieges as an attacker; “They’ve got 5-6 eles swirling; this is taking so loooooong….”

The most common complaint heard during sieges as a defender; “Man arrow carts are kittening useless”.

Just an observation.

Again, Arrowcarts were useless if you have nothing to back it up, but using it in coordination of with people it was very efficient. Those were very naive complaints you heard.

Mif.3471:

Chris.4527:

1.1k posts

Most of them by the same people, many even from the same guilds, all running a campaign of QQ to have their blob tactics dominate WvW again.

If you call my guild a blob guild one more time I swear I will build one of your precious arrowcarts and shoot you.

Johje Holan.4607:

So have any Tier 1 or Tier 2 (I mean the matchups not the keeps – as in JQ vs. SoR vs. BG is Tier 1 NA) keeps or towers flipped since the patch? Is it really as bad as you’re claiming up there?

Things still flip nowadays but only under either of these conditions:

1) Nobody to defend, not a single person

2)HUGE incredible large zergs attack stuff with little to no defenders

Usually however this happens:
people go to tower, see people in tower and leave

people build siege, play some treb pingpong and leave

This is what I have gathered from people still trying to play (in higher Tiers) and from what I can see in T7

Kebab.4013:

Lance.5892:

Guys guys guys, i finally understand! ANet wanted to stop server side skill lag, thus by implementing superpowered ACs and unstoppable trebs, people are useless, won’t bother using skills and all skill lag is forever gone!

Close, but wrong. They are making sure there is no skill lag by making people not joining world vs world.

I used to be an adventurer like you, until I took an arrow to me knee, capillaries, veins, eyelash, buttocks, cornea, musculocutaneous nerve, meniscus, metacarpus, metacarpal, backbone, middle-finger, marrow, eyebrow, carpus, ligament, collar-bone, cerebellum, thigh, lips, belly, medulla oblongata, bronchial-tube, tendon, molar, leg, middle frontal gyrus, toes, tissue, labia, lungs, cerebrum, ears, mandible, liver, opisthenar, vocal cord, vessels, quadriceps, brain, ovary, body, bones, thumb, cartilage, tibia, back, bellybutton, epidermis, vomer, cavities, eyes, medial plantar nerve, organ, tear duct, cells, limbic system, little-finger, occipital lobe, calf, vulva, triceps, metatarsal, talus bone, mammary, lymph nodes, limb, mind, throat, mouth, muscles, earlobe, blood, biceps, teeth, vitreous humor, eyeballs, leukocyte, cranium, elbow, torso, Chromosome, tubes, tongue, breast, chest, cheek and lumbar.

You forgot kitten. How could you forget about the kitten.

dooh.1840:

Zumi.6384:

dooh.1840:

enjoy it while it is possible. Already half of my guild left game becouse of thjis stupidity , same with other guild in ouer aliance

soon it will be fights 2 vs 6 , tell me about good farm then.

This is either a huge exaggeration or your guild mates are massively over reacting. The buff arrow carts and everyone rage quits? Seems pretty silly to me, but hey if it’s that important to you I’m not one to tell people when to quit.

And I agree, as annoying as it might be, there are definitely ways to counter it

its because of impossible to take keeps in my tier , scouts arrow carts and trebs everywhere , no counter tactic against it.
only 1 thing left to do – its defend your keep which no one not trying to attack in ouer prime time.
so wvw is “i scouting my keep and no single fight for hours…”
its not silly , there is no rage quits . Just solitaire has a more dynamic gameplay. I think after this patch its serious competitor for gw2.

I respectfully disagree. Check my signature.

eithinan.9841:

roamzero.9486:

Eles are still OP.
Thieves good roamers as always, but (still) contribute nothing to zergs.
snip.

Why doesnt anyone ever look at venom share and give it the respect it deserves in large scale combat :*(

Because speccing in venomshare (which is great for the group) is very dangerous for the thief. He often dies when doing that and dead people are very useless.

I love getting venoms from the rightly specced thief but it is rare and I can understand why.

notebene.3190:

Ok. What’s funny is I haven’t been out here in weeks, and only poke in here to try to find nuggets of strategy or maybe ask a question (like this). I know some people are really adept at being able to parse through the yelling to find the golden nuggets, I’m not one of them. Since I was here reading some of the answers to my question, I went looking about and realized there’s a ‘lot’ of talk about the arrow carts going on. So now I could deduce what shortcake meant. Honestly, my question was a blind question that I could have easily asked 3-4 days ago (and had been considering asking).

Thanks for the break down Cal. But then I have to wonder, if I put the points in AC, are they then going to tone it down and I’ll be bummed I put my points there?

So now I guess I’ll just keep sitting on my points. It’s kinda funny that they put a neat progress mechanic in, but now I gotta ‘deer in headlights’ happening, and it’s a bit all for naught if I’m reluctant to put them anywhere. Can you ‘respec’ WXP (I see everyone calling it that, technically shouldn’t it be WAP, but I digress?) at this point in the game?

I guess the answer is to get my butt out in WvW more so I get enough points to spend that it doesn’t matter. I’m a bit of a ‘burst’ player though. I’ll play for a few day to a week having a blast, then maybe disappear for 3 weeks.

Appreciated the input!

Afaik you cannot change your points for now. I do hope something like that will be implemented (I think 2g would be a good price for that, it should not be as menial as changing traits)

You might indeed get kittened when they finally fix arrowcarts but I do think that there will be some kind of recomp for that. And it doesn’t really matter as these rank abilities have very little influence. (except for the new arrowcart ones).

P.S. I forgot about cannons.
Actually the cannons are like ballista’s there are some neat perks in that ability line but it is very rare to be able to man a cannon. You can only shoot a cannon if you are facing REALLY bad players except for maybe in SM where you might get a little use for them.

evildan.8260:

Kebab.4013:

evildan.8260:

Anything that cuts down on blobs derping down gates is a good move.

It’s like some people here have never heard of cats and trebs to get into places…

There are some people here not knowing what is fun about playing wvwvw…

I like a good siege myself- much more fun than blobbing up and zerging towers in some karma train.

Again with the blobs and the karmatrain. Point out people here who do that.

What do you consider to not be a zerg or blob? Less than 20? Well those are the people getting hit the hardest by this. Now you need even more people to do something. This is will create more blobs.

ThomasKreshant.6572:

I asked for it

Buff stacking groups attacking a tower when your out manned basically ignored arrow carts damage completely.

A fully upgraded tower should be defensible with small amounts of people vs a group otherwise what’s the point of having towers and keeps, might as well just have open group way points to cap which I’d find dull tbh

Groups stacking buff in arrowcart range even before the patch were stupid and a very rare sight. A single arrow cart was not ignored before (not even when I was running my tanky Guardian with mace shield that was specced for regen). It was doable, even up to 4 was doable with a little coordination. Really good teams with perfect composition, timing and teamwork might were able to soak up the damage of 6 arrowcarts. But doing that you were very vulnerable for actual attacks. That was the point.

Siege was support and pressure and a limited means of area denial. You were not going to get a lot of kills with a defensive arrowcart on a gate, unless you actually had allies working with you to go out and kill those people.
Arrowcarts had cripple and bleeds, these are perfect for support, it forces people to blow their cooldowns for heals and condiremovals. If you then attack them they would die a lot easier. This encouraged tactical gameplay.

The fact that you were not willing to put the effort into defending before does not mean that it was hard.

I’d also like to talk about the example one person gave about not being able to kill a single person when he was on an arrowcart. The person gave that as an example of arrowcarts not being powerful enough but that is not true. The arrowcarts are there for the pressure they can put on 50 players. If you want 1 or 2 players dead you should just jump out and use your actual weapons.

The pressure arrowcarts put on you before were detrimental, it could destroy any group of players (zerg and guildraid alike) that would regroup at the wrong place, it could keep a lot of players from every breaking combat and regenning to reengage.
Arrowcarts on their own were indeed never strong enough, but that is why you have allies.

The old arrowcarts encouraged tactics and teamplay, these new ones encourage sitting on or behind a wall and pressing 1.

I’m pretty sure he means that the only smart place to put your points in is Arrow cart mastery.

Anything against guards or mercenaries is useless because if you need help against those, then you are just a scrub. You don’t sound like a scrub so you can skip those.

Siege bunker and siege attack seem pretty good but you can only get a max of 5% for each. 5% is very very little. If 3 ballista shots kill you without full siege bunker then 3 ballista shots will still kill you with full siege bunker.

Supply capacity is really good. 5 extra supply is extremely powerful. And extremely expensive so we can skip that one.

Ballista mastery is ok, especially if you can get the extra skill and the range. Too bad ballista see less usage nowadays. Still this would not be a waste.

And then there is arrow cart mastery.
For very little points you get a kittenton of stuff that is pretty kittening OP. Increased range kills pretty much most cataspots that were being used in the game up till now. The damage buff for the second ability is huge (don’t forget that all arrowcart skills have just been buffed, the nr1 shot by 80%, already). For only 75 points you get all that and you even get a poison shot that unveils.
This arrow cart mastery is breaking the game and incredibly OP, you would have to be stupid to pick something else first.

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

I know for a fact that members of big WvW Guilds from Elona’s reach like Anima Immortalis, Aegis, GD, Equinox, Galleon and many more are thinking the same about this joke of a patch. I would bet that our German friends from Kodash like KOA, fx or BOTS are thinking the same.

That is great and I encourage them to all voice there concerns in here because apparently those opposing the patch are now being labeled as a vocal minority.

I guess you are correct, I wasn’t specific enough.

I’m a Officer from Aegis, I’m leading public, as well as guild raids and I would like to express my personal concerns about the changes that where made in Guild Wars 2’s WvWvW and the direction the gamemode is taking. Starting with the early changes that crippled coregamers by restricting AOE Damage and Heals on 5 targets, ending with the last patch that is a bad joke and obvious laugh in the face of the WvW community.

WvW is NOT a PVE-Mode. WvW is (still my opinion) not meant to be for casual gamers as the developers and a minority in this forum and in the game wish it to be.

WvW has a HUGE Community that evolves solely on WvW and pretty much everyone there wants WvW to be what it is meant to be: The best looking RvR to this point in time, giving us the possibility to create a huge variety of tactics and strategys, especially if you play as part of a guild. So for our dear WvW developers: Stop ignoring the community already and start to make sense.

I hope for starters that is all the encouragement you need Caliban.

Thank you, every little thing helps (at least I hope it does).

I wonder how long it’ll take until we get any sort of response but I’m starting to think that if they haven’t after 22 pages that they won’t do it any time soon. I guess the decreased queue times and the obvious decrease in people logging on might show them something is up.

7/10
Well played, sir, well played

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

I know for a fact that members of big WvW Guilds from Elona’s reach like Anima Immortalis, Aegis, GD, Equinox, Galleon and many more are thinking the same about this joke of a patch. I would bet that our German friends from Kodash like KOA, fx or BOTS are thinking the same.

That is great and I encourage them to all voice there concerns in here because apparently those opposing the patch are now being labeled as a vocal minority.

Heijincks.9267:

I suppose the previous meta wasn’t what Anet wanted WvW to be. For example, let’s take guild ownership.

The objectives get flipped so fast in the former meta that there’s literally no point in making one for your guild. If they buff siege up to the point that it’s impossible to quickly take an objective, and make each objective a fortress, then might there be some point in doing so.

In other words, it probably wasn’t Anet’s vision for fast flips. The previous meta was not what they wanted. They probably want WvW to be more like drawn out, perpetual warfare with more meaningful objectives. Yes, that probably will mean WvW will stagnate. That said, the new meta will separate the good commanders from the bad ones since tactics are forced. Also, having few defenders being able to hold off large numbers also depromotes nightcapping.

It’ll interesting to see how this will turn out. Right now it’s simply a matter of waiting for everyone to adjust, or waiting for those who are unwilling to adjust leave. I’m guessing that in the near future, objectives will be valuable enough that people won’t just go do something like “Drain all supplies from X and move to Y”.

You make a huge mistake in your post, nothing needed to be buffed to make it hardly impossible to flip. As said by many people already a good defence could hold off huge forces already. Just look at the video by Agg or read many testimonies of this happening. And it was ok if you attacked something like this and could not break through completely. Because in these defences there would be fights and there would be skill and tactic checks between both groups. It required some effort from the defending team, as it should.

Pestilence.3184:

I agree with what your saying claiburn BUT the classes are still very much UNBALANCED to a huge extent right now. The difference from Thief, Ele, Mes compared to Warrior, Engi, Gurdian is MILES APART
Rangers and necro seem perfect (ive only played necro in spvp so its personal opinion) Right now even with the changes Warrior is bottom of the pile in what it can take and dish out.

i play war,mes,ranger and guardian so i do have some incite into the classes

It’s nice to be able to talk about something other than just AC’s. Thanks for that.

Guardian and Warrior are 2 classes that get a lot of playing time in game. I don’t think Guardians need any balancing, Warriors might need some tweaks here and there but overall in a group composition they hold their own.

Rangers are still pretty underpowered for a group composition but you seem happy with it, good for you.

Ele’s just got a big nerf and Thiefs got their damage nerfed (something thief haters wanted) and got an extra heal (survivability that thieves wanted) and they can strip boons. So I think they are doing a really good job on balancing things, at least as far as WvW goes, I hear from people that the situation is a bit more complex for sPvP.

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

Why haven’t I been in this thread yet? I must be slacking.

While I think it is great that people thank devs for what they are doing, I just hope that I might be able to congratulate them on something that did not ruin the game for every one that knew how to play the game.

Nobody cared about wxp after 2 days of it’s launch. (You want wxp for buying upgrades, so basically you even want to buy your wxp, smart move).

I will agree on number 4, those were good changes. Long overdue but good changes nevertheless.

But WTF did the do to arrowcarts? One long standing complaint was fixed through that though. No longer need to level a character through pve or crafting. There is no more need to level, just get an arrowcart.

PredatoR.5247:

Bllade.1029:

Honestly, I can imagine the pug zergs and people who run in these zergs having a huge issue with this. In most tiers, trying to coordinate a pug zerg is like trying to teach a blind man to read.

For those of us who run with our guilds, coordinate, and are much more tactical. This is a very much welcomed addition. Long time coming honestly. Now, it FORCES people to think and listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSuQ3PIV80E

this is how you defend a tower with 15 people, you don’t need arrow carts. Your just bad.

Great video, shows skill and coordination. That’s what it is supposed to be like. Personally I think 1 arrowcart would have been great just to keep the pressure up but you guys obviously did not need it.

This arrowcart buffs nerfs that kind of gameplay and you cannot call this defense mindless zerging. Siegegames involve no skill or and very little teamwork actual fighting does.

Kript.3291:

Arrow cart was fine, it does not need any damage buff, and i don’t think it will address the issue of zerging meta, instead, it replace the current zerg meta with a worse one: lazy bunker meta.

pre-patch:

The successful defense of any given structures in wvw relies on the synergy of 3 things:
siege users, defenders on the wall, and ground troops.

You need sieges like arrow cart to provide fire support and limited deterrence.
You need the mobility and other useful profession-related skills of the defenders on the wall. (ex. provide healing+ shield to the siege users, plus addtional AoEs)
You need the ground fources to be ready to move out the make a push.

You need ( or needed now with the new patch) these 3 thing to work co-operatively for a successful defense.

You could not defend a keep with a bunch of eles or rangers standing on wall, they will just get torn apart by all the Necro marks.

You could not defend a keep with sieges alone, they are static, and have slower firing rate.

You could not defend a keep with ground troop alone, with all that AoEs half of them would probably be dead when they exist the gate.

I think the synergy of these three is what makes wvw fun for a lot of us. I remember when i was playing with my ranger, i love standing on the wall and use my under-power longbow attacking those invaders. I know a lvl 5 noob with a arrow cart can probably do better than me when it comes to doing damage, and it’s very risky to stand on the wall when there are 10 eles casting meteors shower at me, nevertheless, it gives the battle a certain ‘flavor’ that can not be replaced by manning on a arrow cart and mashing 1,2,3.

This patch is gonna change that, i think.

Anet has buffed up the damage of arrow carts to the point that all you need to do is to have 5 people bunker down in your precious little keeps and use arrow carts to do all the work for you.

Ground troops? nope, no need to have actual face-to-face zerg clash, no more commander urging the pve militia to ‘stack. buff-up, we are making a push’, they will probably be acting solely as the ’ cleaning-up crews’ from now on: finishing those downed enemies and collecting bags.

Defenders on the wall? no need, arrow carts kill the enemies before you even need to heal the lvl 5 noob that’s been using arrow arts. No profession related skills are required, just mashing 1,2,3.

I know some people would say, ’ it kills zerg !.’ It’s stop people from pvdoor’, ‘it give defender a chance to defend’

First, you don’t want to replace a bad meta with a worse meta. Yes, zerging is bad, it’s stale, but bunker down in tower and let the arrow carts replacing the zerg is even a worse idea. I don’t see mashing 1,2,3, is any better than zerg vs zerg.

As for the pvdoor issue or giving defender a fighting chance when they are out-manned, well, of all the options Anet can do they picked the worst and imbalance, one. They could have make the gate stronger, or they could have make those guards npcs somewhat useful (we have a wvw trait line that specifically design for dealing with NPC, i mean seriously? they don’t go down fast enough?), or how about redesign out-manned buff completely? or find a better way to balance out server population and time zone issues?

if buffing up arrow cart’s is Anet’s attempt to address the wvw issues, then i am truly disappointed. I thought you guys were much more innovative than this…

People still play this game because it’s the only game out there that has ‘decent’ RvR (and now Anet is ruining it), they won’t hesitate to quit when there’s a better game, i think it’s a good thing Camelot Unchained is getting kickstart funded.

This is a perfect post. Glad there are people like you who truly understand WvW.

Aberrant.6749:

Mooodster.3470:

took hills tonight with a group of maybe 20 on about 10 or so not huge numbers by any means…it did take 2 tries b4 we decided not to rush the bridge choke point inside inner and actually set up some siege to counter the 3 ac and ballista we did take it…Im using hills as example because well its got some very long choke points that an arrow cart is perfect for and if played right like the enemy did is hard to take with the rush in dumb zerg mentality it was rather easy once we changed our strategy to counter theirs…..like many others have already said get away from the dumb zerg mentality and start thinking of ways to make the enemy fight you on your terms not theirs…

They must not have sieged up the lords room properly then. There are places you can shove ac’s in there where they can’t be hit and still fire at the choke point. You won vs. baddies. Grats.

Exactly, because even before the patch you could defend hills indefinitely with 10 coordinated people. This only proves that there are a lot of people who did not know how to play the game before and apparently the still don’t know now.

So many people say that defenders used to have a disadvantage before, I used to think the same but then I learned to play the game. As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch. Before you needed a little bit of skill and some coordination to defend. Now you need arrowcarts and a defensive treb. They took away all the skill and coordination of defending.

PinCushion.7390:

MRA.4758:

Reslinal.2359:

The arguments here really demonstrate the difference between two play styles in wvw. People who prefer proper siege warfare like the change and people who like open field fights and only use objectives as focal points to find action hate this change.

It’s hard to fill the desire of both groups at once, maybe instead of complaining about the change, the second group should encourage ANET to tweak the mechanisms to encourage more open field battles? I think this change is good for the siege warfare aspect of WvW (the range of AC needs some tweaking) and who knows it may actually create more opportunities for open field battles as well (like more open field siege battles, and more efforts at blocking reinforcements etc).

A reasonable line of thought, though I don’t think your premise is completely correct. Players who prefer the open field battles are actually quite unaffected by the arrow cart buff, since you do not usually find that many arrow carts in the open field.

From my perspective this case more demonstrates the difference between the “extended siege warfare play style” crowd and the “but i want my loot/karma/wxp/whatever now, instantly, without having to earn it or to change anything in the current way i optimized my play style” crowd. A shift in the meta forces the latter group out of their comfort zone, and hence the 18+ pages mega thread. Filling the desire of these two groups at once is just as much a dilemma as the one you illustrated.

Having said that, I am all for giving the “open field battle play style” crowd something they like. Maybe an additional map with non-fortified capture objectives only that contribute to the PPT? This would allow for a very different type of skirmish WvW side by side with the existing siege warfare WvW. (Just an idea, who knows if this would work.)

~MRA

This pretty much sums up the thread.

So RG, VoTF, DsD, sIN, Riot, VcY, IRON,…
These guilds all just want loot/karma and wxp?

Yes that really sums it all up.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Like 90% of these anti-arrow cart arguments are made by one person… He’s like a quarter of the entire thread lol.

*eyes Caliban.

yw

Mif.3471:

style.6173:

This is clearly broken.

Arrow carts are fine. It’s your zerg tactics that are broken.

Yes a mechanic that breaks any action for people between 0 and 50 player is very effective against zerg.

Go back to PvE pls.

style.6173:

Calm down everyone. Last week was take our daughter’s and sons to work day. I’m sure one of them accidentally made the AC change. This is clearly broken.

Most reasonable explanation yet. I have been trying to understand for hours how this could have happened and I think you finally solved it.

This mistake does not fix zerging (if anything it encourages bigger zerging)
it does not balance defence/offence
it does not encourage fighting
it doesn’t even create real siege wars as they are out of balance now.

It does look like the work of a child, a child with very good intentions but a very short sighted vision.

P.S. My most reasonable explanation before you gave me this was that they were just a month late with april fool’s

qweman.5298:

JaredKincade.9761:

New, meta.

Enjoy.

let me guess: you play in French servers?

Check his chat… (but I like the joke)

DeWolfe.2174:

I’m getting a kicked about people complaining “How are we ever to take Hill’s now?” Yet then state they only care about open field fighting. Which means you never cared about the PPT anyway!

If this causes those Guilds to leave WvW, those that never cared about the PPT, then GOOD! The rest of us can finally get in without waiting on the freaking queue.

These guilds cared about fighting indeed and they took keeps to get fights going. They used the PPT to find fights. The objectives can be used as an incentive to fight, it is a valid way of playing the game. You’ll even find that most servers find this the most enjoyable way of playing the game. If they did not then they wouldn’t because it has never been the most efficient way.

Also I think you might be very lonely in this idea that these guilds leaving the game would be good. I’m quite sure Anet would disagree as well. These are guilds that advance the meta, that keep the game interesting and the things they do generate so much publicity for the game and indirectly generate income for Anet. You do not want these guilds to leave.

DeadlySynz.3471:

I tried WvW last night for a couple of hours and I found absolutely no problem with the new arrow carts. Granted I don’t stand around like a knob in the cross fire and our group had no problem taking down defended gates. I did notice though the range is a tad bit ridiculous on how far they can fire outside the keeps.

I think a solution though that could work to quell the complaining is to just have the arrow carts use 1 supply for every shot you take. Basically if somebody hops on with 10 supply, they get 10 shots until they have to hop off. This could be done with all siege equipment. Hell, maybe add a separate “ammunition” supply separate from the supplies we have now that you need to fire the siege equipment. Perhaps also make the ammunition supplies random drops from killing enemies as well.

The way it is now, I think it’s fine, but if these AC’s are posing that much of a problem for groups to siege keeps, then perhaps having the siege equipment cost supplies or ammunition itself will do the trick.

It’s not good enough as a fix to this problem (it is a problem, many people have already given examples as to how these new arrowcarts are a problem, there is even another thread that has gathered such examples) but it is a good idea and definitely a step in the right direction.

I do not think it is a good enough but I support that idea because it is better than nothing.

Serophous.9085:

See? THIS is how WvWvW is suppose to be played!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO-q_jUOqK4

You’re doing it wrong. Try using more commanders next time. You guys could use some coordination.

Preacher.9018:

Real reason why arrow carts are buffed: Devs responsible for Fractals of the Mysts, though that arrow carts in Ascalon fractal pose not enough challenge, thus almost doubled their damage by only possible way.

Sad and probable.

AngTSAO.1852:

Show me 5 Arrow car and a wall, i can face 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 army.

Sad but true.

Dovgan.8605:

Caliban.3176:

Dovgan.8605:

Cyril.1486:

I cannot believe for the life of me there are people that actually defend this change. Come on wake up smell the coffee, I wanna zerg up some easy WXP.

fixed

Did they remove the siege cap, trebuchets, catapults, and balistas? If not, why are arrow carts such big issue? Because “Everybody Stack!” “Build!” isn’t working for you. This hurts mindless gameplay, why would I defend that?

LOL You just called RG wxp zergers.

You just took away all value from your posts.

Maybe we aren’t watching the same videos. Not sure how that would get past someone with such a keen grasp on things. RG is a great open field guild, they aren’t touting about their siege prowess. They, as I am sure most are, know point caps is the fastest way to accrue WXP, maybe you missed the memo. Not sure where I lost you. Maybe I can type slower.

Pretty sure I know RG a bit better than you do and they might not be bragging about their siege capabilities as they do about their open field prowess (no offence) but they are really good in both things. It is impossible for a good open field guild or skirmish guild to be bad at siege. We needed siege to get people out to fight.

Dovgan.8605:

Cyril.1486:

I cannot believe for the life of me there are people that actually defend this change. Come on wake up smell the coffee, I wanna zerg up some easy WXP.

fixed

Did they remove the siege cap, trebuchets, catapults, and balistas? If not, why are arrow carts such big issue? Because “Everybody Stack!” “Build!” isn’t working for you. This hurts mindless gameplay, why would I defend that?

LOL You just called RG wxp zergers.

You just took away all value from your posts.

Saint Scarlet.2906:

I notice the only ones complaining are people in the top 2 tiers or from them, they obviously haven’t learnt how to play the game and have always relied on overwhelming numbers to do anything.
All i can say is learn how to play the game as it was meant to be, not how you’ve chosen to do it for the last 9months which clearly has left you all floundering around without a clue.

So people fromt the top tiers don’t know how to play the game?

Also consider that these are mostly people from the top guilds in the game. They probably know what they are talking about. A small and far from complete list of those guilds: (warning, biased for EU) VcY, Riot, sIN, RG, VoTF, IRON, …

Timpsu.9324:

How I see this update is that encourages PvD.

What’s the easiest way to counter modern AC? The way when no one is using it. U will make feint attacks somewhere and meanwhile cap something else. So the superiority of a server doesn’t come from server vs. server confrontations, it comes from the skill of avoiding combat. Some people might call my scenario strategy, I call it PvD. It certainly doesn’t encourage people to have actual epic scale PvP confrontations.

So true.

Gab Superstar.4059:

Silver.9084:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Silver.9084:

What people don’t understand is that it is BORING trebbing/dealing with counter trebs for 5 hours to TRY and find a fight inside a keep or something.. people want to fight CHARACTERS not siege all the time..

People obviously don’t feel this way.

That’s why this thread has almost 700 replies in half a day

700 replies totally agreeing with the complains made in this thread. Hell, if I knew my posts would count as some kind of support for these complaints, I don’t think I would be posting here right now. Face it, the people who frequent forums are a drop in the ocean, and mean next to nothing in terms of what people would actually like to see in the game.

Caliban.3176:

You don’t have to tell me what to do, I’ll stop posting when I feel like it. It’s the only thing I can do now since the patch has made everything I worked for in the game useless. I do have real arguments, you just choose to ignore that, that is your choice.

I do not understand what you are doing in this thread, guilds that actually tried to make this game competitive are now asking for a fix. You are just here to ruin stuff.

If you consider 5v100 a valid argument, I don’t know what. Personally I would consider that mad ramblings. If you feel you need to quit this game, then by all means go ahead and do it. I see absolutely nothing from anyone who replied to me that is worth even a second of consideration from my part.

Oh, and this game is competitive. Maybe blobbing 30 people up and spamming your autoattack while abusing every game mechanic conceivable has something to do with your lack of fun. That is what you guys do in the upper tiers right?

Before this patch 10vs80 was not hard to do for hills or garrison. Not in the least. You didn’t even have to be on voicecomms for it. Of course this is going to make 5vs 100 doable.

P.S. we are in T7

Gab Superstar.4059:

Caliban.3176:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Caliban.3176:

Gab Superstar.4059:

If you are trying to take a tower with 50 defenders in it I am pretty sure you are doing it wrong, AC buff or no AC buff. Thanks for driving my point home.

So we should take towers with no defenders in it? I like to fight people, that is what this game was supposed to let me do. Instead you are encouraging me to go to places because the are worth points (worthless points, might I add) and I can only take those places when there is no one there to fight. Sure bro. Sound like PvE. If there are people there, we should leave.

I suggest you start farming Orr, it has everything you look for.

So what you are telling me right now is that those 50 defenders would gladly lose their entire map in favor of holding that one snazzy tower?

Please, stop posting.

5 per tower and maybe 7 per keep to make it entirely impregnable against even 50+ if they know what they are doing not even 100+ can touch them.

And this is why I told you to stop posting. If you have some real arguments, then please let me hear them. But spouting nonsense like this is not going to help your case.

You don’t have to tell me what to do, I’ll stop posting when I feel like it. It’s the only thing I can do now since the patch has made everything I worked for in the game useless. I do have real arguments, you just choose to ignore that, that is your choice.

I do not understand what you are doing in this thread, guilds that actually tried to make this game competitive are now asking for a fix. You are just here to ruin stuff.

Gab Superstar.4059:

Caliban.3176:

Gab Superstar.4059:

If you are trying to take a tower with 50 defenders in it I am pretty sure you are doing it wrong, AC buff or no AC buff. Thanks for driving my point home.

So we should take towers with no defenders in it? I like to fight people, that is what this game was supposed to let me do. Instead you are encouraging me to go to places because the are worth points (worthless points, might I add) and I can only take those places when there is no one there to fight. Sure bro. Sound like PvE. If there are people there, we should leave.

I suggest you start farming Orr, it has everything you look for.

So what you are telling me right now is that those 50 defenders would gladly lose their entire map in favor of holding that one snazzy tower?

Please, stop posting.

They don’t need 50 defenders. The player cap per map is about 150 players and you only need 5 per tower and maybe 7 per keep to make it entirely impregnable against even 50+ if they know what they are doing not even 100+ can touch them.

They would lose nothing by having 50 peopl in 1 tower, they would lose nothing by having 50 people in a tower. There are no more reasons to get out of your own structures while other people are playing.

Nightcapping has just become the only tactic. (sometimes running with 140 players might work as well but it is unlikely)

Shadowresli.3782:

good ideas in the OP, i really would like to see this implemented.

my only question to Aneu is:
how this will affect lower tier servers (i’m on Drakkar Lake)? i see a problem, when it comes to the manpower a server can field. We normaly have no problem during primetime (19.00 – 22.30 CET) but during the night, early morning we regularly fall prey to nightcapping.

Is there a chance, this suggestions are translated in german, cause i think there would be also a lot of people with opinions?

You are welcome to do that yourself. I would just suggest crediting Aneu and providing a link to this thread.