Guild Wars 2

PopeUrban.2578:

Canakun.8031:

Rashagar.8349:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I really enjoy it when people talk about “ending the meta”. But as stated, once one meta dies, another is born. The anti-meta becomes the meta. It’s Metaception!

Well the only reason it will never go away is because there will always be people who believe it’s the only way to play. If people stopped caring about it it would never come back.

I don’t believe it will ever go away, but that’s only because the people who push it will never stop pushing.

A meta isn’t about being the “only way to play,” it’s about being the most optimal, most efficient way to play. Some people like efficiency, especially when they’re grinding content multiple times.

This is true. The meta is only a problem when a meta comp is, as it is now, not just more efficient, but so much more efficient that it can complete a run in literally half the time based solely on build rather than player skill

Take a look back at GW1, take something like the SS necro meta. It was more efficient, but in the end, if you took another well designed group that wasn’t running it, your clear times were at least 90% as efficient. Might stacking zerk meta is able to literally remove 40% of the party and have the same clear times as a balanced non-meta comp.

Nobody wants content to be faceroll, but what people do want is to bring in characters they actually like to play, make some adjustments to traits, weapons, and armor, and still feel like they’re being decently efficient.

It’s not based solely on build.
You still need to know what you’re doing, and have the skills to complete content at half the intended speed.

GUTB.8436:

So, on my first character, I am trying to find the fun in the combat system. I’m really struggling. I rolled a Charr Thief.

1. The rune/skill/weapon system in the game seems incredibly counter-intuitive. I’m sure this problem will go away when I learn the game — are there any meaningful tutorials that assumes the system makes no sense and explains everything?

2. Going by the few ability slots, rotation doesn’t seem complex. In fact, it seems extremely casual. However, the system mixes in action elements like dodging which appear to be necessary in order not to die. To me, Wildstar is a joke because it is too action-oriented — is GW2 going to be plagued with the same problem?

3. Thiefs. I understood going into this game really doesn’t have a stealth class, but so far I just don’t see how this character is going to go out ganking anything if the opponent sees you coming a mile away. Escapes seems powerful though…is Thief really just for trolling?

4. Voice acting. It’s….atrocious. Maybe my expectations have been too heavily skewed by WoW and SWTOR, but is there some way to listen to my character in battle without cringing? Do you just become desensitized to it? Are there other races with better voice acting? kitten .

This might be the wrong game for you if you aren’t enjoying the combat.

PopeUrban.2578:

Heroes were cool when you were limited to 3 of them. You still had to make one friend.

They shouldn’t have made the move to full hero parties until GW2 release, when they were ready to effectively sign off on the game and wanted to make it playable with a drastically reduced player base.

GW2, on the other hand, does not need heroes. All of the story content is designed around solo play, and the group content is designed to make players find and play in groups

GW1 henchies/heroes were a design compromise that enabled them to build a game that was nothing but a series of group dungeons and still have that game be somewhat playable solo. Henchies were better at this as they had a drawback compared to real people. Heroes were cool from a narrative standpoint, but from a design standpoint they totally wrecked grouping and the social elements of the game.

I’m talking about through the duration of your personal/living story, where the characters are there anyway.
They’re gonna be there, why not implement the option to customize them?

Argon.1563:

No. I hated the heroes system in GW1. It absolutely destroyed the playerbase.

“Oh guys, who wants to go for an elite mission? DoA? Urgoz?”
“Just use your heroes and solo it.”

“Hey guys, can I get some help with this mission? Its really hard.”
“Just use your heroes and solo it.”

The heroes system reduced the GW1 playerbase to a bunch of lazy, anti-social wrecks. It made everybody start shying away from group play and completely destroyed the 1 purpose a massively muliplayer game is meant to fufill: Playing with other people.

The heroes system is actually the reason I quit GW1, because nobody wanted to play with me any more. When ever I asked for help, or invited anyone to any content, I got rejected, being told to just use my heroes.

But the DE 2.0 characters are only there for story missions, which you solo anyway?

Shoe.5821:

What we’re trying, and clearly failing, to do is convince you that the new meta, at least what it looks like now, isn’t going to fix anything for the people complaining about build or stat diversity, and it certainly isn’t going to get rid of elitism.

….you don’t think a new meta, with more than just zerker builds, won’t do anything for build diversity?

for the record, what i said was:

wherever the meta settles, stricter or not, it’s going to be more in favor of diverse builds than the zerk meta. i mean, that’s the whole point. there’ll be a place for tougher builds, maybe even bunkers.

and i dont know, you’re putting onto me your anger about people who complain that they arn’t getting into groups. :|

No ones angry, buddy.
Chill.

The zerker meta had build diversity. It just didn’t have stat diversity, until sinister gear arrived. There was always a most effective build to run, though.

Build diversity is being exchanged for stat diversity.
If the new meta is as we all assume it will be, there will only be one optimal druid build, one optimal dragon hunter build, etc. Whatever. That kind of thing.
Sure different classes will be able to choose some different stat sets. Yay? But classes will will be pigeonholed. Probably more so that they currently are.

But even more so than that, it will be more elitist and more exclusionary, because there will be more demands on players. Both stat wise and skill wise.

What I’m saying is, the complainers will still complain. Nothing will be different.
I’m looking forward to adapting and clearing the content pretty quickly though

Rashagar.8349:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I really enjoy it when people talk about “ending the meta”. But as stated, once one meta dies, another is born. The anti-meta becomes the meta. It’s Metaception!

Well the only reason it will never go away is because there will always be people who believe it’s the only way to play. If people stopped caring about it it would never come back.

I don’t believe it will ever go away, but that’s only because the people who push it will never stop pushing.

A meta isn’t about being the “only way to play,” it’s about being the most optimal, most efficient way to play. Some people like efficiency, especially when they’re grinding content multiple times.

Elyndis.2130:

Some people enjoy being a strong support. I have a very close friend who really enjoys playing support in games like LoL or other MMORPGs, and she was a bit disappointed by how relatively weak the support is in this game. Supporting her group-members is what makes her feel powerful and helpful.

You’ve always been able to play a strong support within the zerk meta, though, so that argument isn’t really all it’s cracked up to be.
The most optimal way to run content in the current meta requires a guardian support, and either a mesmer or thief support.
The STATS they run are built for damage, but their role is support.

Shoe.5821:

Why shouldn’t encounters be designed so that support or control or tanky builds are desirable? They already are in pvp and wvw.

That’s what Anet is attempting. That’s what breaks the zerker meta.

Nobody is saying it shouldn’t. Oh my God. Nobody is demanding that only one stat type is worth using and all the others aren’t.

What we’re trying, and clearly failing, to do is convince you that the new meta, at least what it looks like now, isn’t going to fix anything for the people complaining about build or stat diversity, and it certainly isn’t going to get rid of elitism.
We’re trying very hard to make you aware that there will always be a meta. Whether it’s 5 zerk, or 4 zerk 1 cleric, or 3 zerk 1 cleric 1 soldiers. Or if it’s 1 dragon hunter, 2 tempests, 1 chronomancer and 1 berserker, there will always be a most efficent way of doing things.

Nobody is saying there shouldn’t be stat and build diversity. At least I’m not.
But the people who have complained about the zerk meta being too restrictive are going to eventually complain that the HoT meta is too restrictive, if not more restrictive, because it’s going to have even more demands of the players.

Shoe.5821:

The meta is the best way to do things. It’s people evaluating the available options and choosing the best one…but the best option never has and never will be mandatory for completing dungeons.

Damage builds are the best possible choices for dungeons because other builds are unnecessary. Speccing into anything other than damage makes dungeons slower, ergo it is not the optimal choice.

y…yes…

that’s OUR point.

Shoe.5821:

available slots for non-zerker build currently: 0 (see also: Charity)
available slots for non-zerker build in future meta: Some!

‘any’ is better than ‘none’ no matter how elitist or restrictive it is

I just ran an entire dungeon tour in PVT because I made my own darn party.
It’s honestly not a difficult concept.

Every day I’m running sinister. Ranger sinister. Guard sinister. Engi sinister. None of that is zerk. What are you talking about. Honestly.
Do you even play dungeons? Have you looked at LFG ONCE and see a request for zerk and built your entire opinion up from that?

At least formulate a good argument.

Arcaedus.7290:

Canakun.8031:

The longer channel time on shield 5 is compensation for the fact that you can move with it, I guess.
It’s an exchange.
But if you play it right you don’t really lose out on anything.

Hold up, I think I missed something, could some1 please explain to me?

From what I gather, it sounds like we’re getting some sort of trade-off for shield #5. Mobility is the good thing, but 4sc channel time is the bad thing? How is this a tradeoff though, can’t we still detonate the dome early if we wanted to?

The way I see it, this is a double buff to shield #5: Not only is the channel time the FULL 4 seconds like the tooltip said (and we can still detonate immediately if we want to), but we can move while using it. I’m not seeing how there is any sort of trade off or “compensation” involved here, just two straight up buffs.

It confused me too. I kept trying to see if I misread it, because from what I could tell they said “here’s this buff to shield 5, but to compensate for it we’re giving a buff to shield 5.”

Is it something subjective? The longer channel time gives us more choices. We can hold it for additional projectile defense, and pop it whenever we want.

I… only see buff.

The longer channel time on shield 5 is compensation for the fact that you can move with it, I guess.
It’s an exchange.
But if you play it right you don’t really lose out on anything.

Does anyone remember the Heroes of GW1? How you picked them up individually throughout Nightfall and EotN?

I’ve been thinking about how the story is going with Destinys Edge 2.0
Wouldn’t it be cool if you could alter their builds and equipment and have them function similarly to how heroes did in GW1? They’d still only be there for your persona/living story missions, which they’d be there for anyway regardless, only you’d have the option to customize.

Not permanent unlocks, so in case any character needed to leave the story for whatever reason they could do so and you’d just get any of your equipment back.

I think that’s a cool idea.
Thoughts?

Arcadio.6875:

Doing fractals isn’t just about seeing the fractals. It’s about progressing through the levels going through tougher challenges and getting better rewards. When new members in my guild ask about fractals, they want to know about what they need to progress. They aren’t interested in doing 1-9 only.

And part of that process is acquiring the appropriate gear.
The good thing is they aren’t being locked out of content, only difficulty settings.

Shoe.5821:

wherever the meta settles, stricter or not, it’s going to be more in favor of diverse builds than the zerk meta. i mean, that’s the whole point. there’ll be a place for tougher builds, maybe even bunkers.

I don’t think you understand how it’s going to work entirely.

The zerk meta was an efficency meta based on time.
The new meta will be a strict meta based on time, dps, hps, threat management.

Under the zerk meta, you could clear content with WHATEVER BUILD YOU WANTED, and the only thing that would change would be time spent doing the content. Players could freely play how they wanted, even by simulating a hard trinity team with a soliders guard and a clerics ele and 3 different types of dps. They could clear content that way, and the only thing that would change would be time.

With the need for dedicated healers and possibly tanks, what controls the meta will be more than time. Healing efficiency will matter now. Damage efficiency will matter a lot more now than it ever did under the zerk meta, because more damage dealt = less need for strenuous healing.

This isn’t the saving grace for players who couldn’t or wouldn’t participate in the previous meta. This will be harder for them. There will be more elitism. There will be stricter requirements in party finder.

There might not even be pug groups for this content, because the introduction of new and required roles warrants the need for additional features like Inspect and Gear locking.

That’s why I believe the ‘new meta’ as it’s looking now, which is similar to the traditional MMORPG raid meta, will be even stricter.
It’ll wear the guise of build freedom, but it will be so much stricter. And you guys created it.

Kirschsahne.2081:

you shouldn’t have zerker gear from beginning.

if you decided to abuse a system you have to pay for it later. this is how life works

You genuinely think running a berserker build is an “abuse” of the system?

Do you actually think that dedicated players finding the most efficient way to play their game is abusing the games system?

Gods…

Ald.9418:

Lets not fix a huge problem because it may create another problem down the line. That’s what i got from the OP. Could it happen and will it happen? I’m sure it will, but anything’s better than the current garbage zerker meta.

I’d love to run a full bunker tank and support build and let all the zerkers do their thing but the current content doesn’t encourage it. It’s not required because the current group PVE content is terrible and has been since launch. That needs to change if this games PVE is ever going to be taken seriously.

Are there really great groups that make everyone else look terrible? Absolutely there are. Unfortunately when clear times become the best indication of skill rather than the act of clearing difficult content, then the content is subpar.

This can be fixed by encouraging and requiring different play styles and gearing as well as more intricate boss mechanics. This is what i feel Anet is trying to accomplish and i for one welcome it.

What you’re “getting” from me is incorrect.
I don’t consider the current meta to be an issue.
The point of my post is to let people know that what they’ve caused by complaining about the meta being strict, is caused an even stricter meta to come into existence. This is factual.
The zerk meta was simply the fastest way of clearing content that, theoretically, any build combination could complete. The only factor was time.
The new meta will factor other things into completion. There will no longer be ANY play how you want completion, especially with raids. There will be a strict set of builds and play styles that you MUST adhere to if you wish to participate and clear content.

This is what I’m saying. This isn’t fixing anything. The same people will still clear content, and the same people will still complain about meta strictness. Bearbow rangers and other PHIW builds will still be removed from any group who is serious about completing content.

This. Has. Not. Solved. Anything.
At all.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Ah, that old theory…

Which falls apart once you move past Balthazar/Primordus and Melandru/Mordremoth.

I disagree about the physical similarities. Honestly that thing looked like a vine-based Shadow Behemoth.

balthazar/primordius aspect of fire

lyssa/kralkatorrik aspect of purple chaos magic

grenth/zhaitan aspect of death

dwayna/jormag, this was the only difficult one to make an association, with ice and death clearly going to grenth. but then one may remember that grenth is the son of dwayna. The previous death god had no aspect of ice, so one can assume the ice part came from dwayna. She is also associated with snow.

melandru/mordremoth aspect of plants

kormir/bubbles aspect of water and secrets(and bubbles is definitely shrouded in secrecy)

I completely agree with you that the elder dragon =/= the gods. However don’t rush and say they clearly aren’t related.

Bruh this conversation has been going on within the forums for like 3 years now. There is no rushing.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’ve been around the sun a couple dozen times, and I’ve seen this kind of superiority fueled analytic BS before. Every time somebody goes on a stint explaining why other people disagree with their one true way I die a little inside, for my faith in the human race gets knocked another notch. Take this quote and remove the kid gloves, and you get this message:

“Other people (the PHIW) don’t want to play the way the rest of us play because they’re not competent enough to do it right. For whatever reason. I don’t care why.”

Which is ridiculous. It should be self evident that preference in play and competence in play are two unrelated qualities. I shouldn’t have to explain that one doesn’t lead to the other.

Don’t let the passive wording fool you. It is just fancy dressing on top of an elitist diatribe.

I base my opinions off of my experience, and my experience is that the majority of players who don’t want to participate in speed running content is due to (typically) latency, but more often than not age and ability have also been contributing factors.
You can make assumptions about my wording all you want, though, but the only time I ever play PHIW with no skipping is when I’m playing with a younger cousin of mine, or an elder, or a guildie who has trouble differentiating colour, etc.

My point is that this will be even more difficult for them under what I’m perceiving to be the new meta.

You’ve clearly had some bad experiences though, if your immediate reaction is to assume elitism in anything you read.

Warcry.1596:

No, I want raids to have heavy mechanics involved. Aetherpath level mechanics, but more innovative

I clear Aetherpath in full zerk gear.

??? ?????:) ?

Arcadio.6875:

Canakun.8031:

You don’t need any Agony Resistance to do fractals. At all. You only need it to do it at a higher difficulty.

I’m not sure what the point of your comment is…

No need to be snarky about it.
I’m rolling off what you said about players getting into fractals by stating that they don’t need a single piece of ascended armor to start doing fractals.

I made my comment within the context of the thread, being about agony resistance as a content gate.

Cyninja.2954:

Exactly.

Unfortunately the same people who did not educated themselves about the current meta, or were to lazy to find equal minded people to play with, will be the first to come complaining about “LFG Druid everywhere, I keep getting kicked”, “my damage ranger is not getting taken along. I have to be heal…. I can’t play the way I want” and “I have to make multiple ascended armor stat sets now, ascended is to expensive, nerf anet”!

This. It will be the exact same people complaining about the exact same situation. The topic of complaint will just be a different gear set.
Nothing has been fixed, but the bearbows and cleric shield guards have gotten what they wanted – the dissatisfaction of dedicated players willing to adjust their play style to meet a meta.

Which, by the way, we will do again in HoT.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The problem isn’t the existence of a meta. The problem is that the current meta has several facets that is undesireable to players. In particular, players want to be both useful while also being tanks and healers. Even if the LFGs change to “LF1M Cleric Druid or Kick”, the advantage is that players who want to heal now can play cleric druid and be welcome to parties.

This is so bizarre though. Why would someone want to play a dedicated healer in a game that doesn’t require a dedicated healer? They’ve forced the content to change so it requires the very specific thing that they want to play.
While at one point any class could play through content, groups will be even more discriminate of who they allow into their party now.

Arcadio.6875:

60 AR on trinkets and 10 on weapons makes it easy for alts currently. Do wonder how it will work in later fractal levels though. Will be very annoying if we have to craft full ascended armor any time we want to use an alt of another gear type (heavy/medium/light). What’s also annoying is the rune situation. Even if you get full legendary from raids, trying out different runes or giving your armor to another profession that benefits from a different rune will be a problem.

Regardless, something needs to be done to make it easier for people to get into fractals. The offensive/defensive/utility infusion slot vs agony infusion slot is a pain to explain to new people interested in fractals. Reading the wiki doesn’t help them too much. As a guild leader, I’ve had to explain this many times so I know how unintuitive the current system is. +1 agony infusions drop frequently, but aren’t usable on the most common infusion slots. That’s just bad design.

You don’t need any Agony Resistance to do fractals. At all. You only need it to do it at a higher difficulty.

Exciton.8942:

I think HOTS should be a good time to separate agony resistance from ascended armor set. I would like to see agony resistance become an account-wide stat just like magic find.

My reason for agony resistance being a bad thing tied to armor:
1. GW2 is advertised as a no-grind for stats game. However, to progress in fotm, you have to make ascended armors which are quite costly. And the ability to craft ascended armor has no correlation with one’s ability to do fractals.

2. Anet wants every profession to be versatile. However, with AR tied to armor, one has to stick to one set of armor which greatly limits build variety. If you want to switch from power to condie, you have to craft a complete new set of ascended armor. This is not fun.

3. I am also forced to run with limited professions. Heavy/medium/light gear type can only be shared among three professions.

4. Ascended armor is end-game gear. Being forced to put on AR in the infusion slot makes me feel awkward. Just in order to do fractals, I won’t be able to put other types of infusion in the slot.

With the new fractal line in the mastery system, I think there should be no problem for Anet to separate the AR progression from the gear progression.

No.

Runiir.6425:

IllegalChocolate, but that means going slower, not skipping mobs, and (GASP!) a run taking longer than absolute max speed with full meta zerkers and no screw ups! We can’t have THAT now can we?!

This is such a confusing sentiment that you lot keep parroting.
If we can do it a certain speed, why would we decide to run weaker gear and do it at a slower speed.
????
Why would we do that

I want to preface this by stating that every game, and every game type within that game, will always have a most viable way of doing things. There will always be a best way to do damage, a best way to survive, and a most efficent way to do both simultaneously.

For most MMO’s this is a set amount of players dealing damage, with 1 or 2 or sometimes 3 players actively holding threat, and a couple of backliners keeping every body alive, either through mitigation or straight healing. This works well for other games, and it’s a type of play that GW2 sought to remove itself from.

This isn’t to say that the Druid will completely destroy the game or anything, however I have noticed people on the forums, and ofcourse developers themselves, say things that completely… baffle me.

The current state of GW2’s meta is that the best way to kill enemies is to kill them, and the best way to not take damage is to not take damage. That’s how you play the game, that’s how the game teaches you how to play the game, and a meta that focuses on a maximised offence is what was born from it. I see big names like Nike and Brazil mention it all the time that the faster you take down an enemy the less time that enemy has to potentially deal damage to you.

The reason there are some detractors from this meta (which is fine, the game very clearly allows for Play How I Want groups to clear content) is because not everyone can grasp the pre-buffing, the rotations, the correct time to dodge, etc. Whether this is due to latency, age, ability or otherwise is none of my business.

What we’ve heard today is that the Devs are supporting a shift away from the damage/dodging meta that gets content cleared quickly. This is likely because of the constant complains from people that their particular class or their particular build isn’t welcome in a meta environment.

What nobody seems to be accounting for is that by creating content that needs a healer to heal, the developers are casuing the following (assuming raid content is exactly as they want it to be).

- A new meta that is much stricter than the previous meta. It will no longer be a “LF1M zerk” situtation but a “LF1M druid CLERICS OR KICK” situation.
- For this reason, the people who complained about the zerk meta will eventually complain about the druid meta. This is just my subjective anecdotal experience, but the majority of PHIW complainers are ranger mains who like their bear and their bow a little too much. Guys, you’re going to be pigeon holed so much more now that you’re the only class that can fulfill the role as dedicated healer. You have EVEN LESS BUILD DIVERSITY now.

- 2 years down the line, there will be a STRICTER set of viable ways to clear content. There will be more people complaining.

- This MAY REQUIRE THE NEED FOR AN INSPECT OPTION. This is a really important one in my opinion. Now that specific sets of gear are needed for specific builds on specific classes, there will actually be a need for an inspect feature. Raid leaders who are making pug groups will need a solid way of ensuring that the players who’ve signed up for a certain role are actually fulfilling that role. Because there will still be PHIW people detracting from the new meta (did i mention the new meta will be stricter than the zerk meta?) This will also warrant a gear lock-in system for raids.

I thought I’d be able to word this a lot more eloquently than I did but this is about all I have to say.
To summarise.
- New meta will be stricter.
- Will be complained about just as much, if not more than zerk meta 2 years down the line.
- Creates the need for additional features such as inspection and gear locking.

There it is guys. You ended the super strict super elitist zerk meta, and in doing so created what could potentially be twice as strict and twice as elitist. Just because someone kicked you for running clerics.

Eirdyne.9843:

Hi,

I don’t mind doing the dungeons that are around, but I’d like to do them more than one way.

Here’s a fix.

Remove subject words like: OS, Meta, Metazerker, Zerker, Berzerker, Berserker, and etc from being possible to post in the group advertisement listing.

Words that would be allowable: Guard, Thief, Necro, and etc.. ie only class names. This way we can actually play the game.

You built this game so we could play different variations of the classes. Why reward players for breaking your game?

Why do you need to ruin other peoples experiences just to benefit your own?

Torolan.5816:

Canakun.8031:

But we aren’t talking about inability, we’re talking about refusal.
If you’re unable to move your character, use your characters skills, dodge roll, jump, press keys, target an opponent, then I’ll agree that you have an inability to complete raid content – but you also have an inability to play Guild Wars 2 at all. Arguably that’s all you need to do in order to complete raid content, and since we don’t know enough that would suggest otherwise, I’d suggest there’s no point even complaining about it.

The issue people are having is that the rewards are gated behind content that they don’t want to do (they don’t even know what the content looks like, they just see the word raid and suddenly spit the dummy), not that they are unable to do it. That’s fine. If they refuse to do content, and they want to constantly go on and on about how they’re refusing to do the content, cool. That’s fine. But they don’t get dessert.

If something has happened to the child that has made them physically incapable of consumption, then something is medically wrong with that child and they shouldn’t be at the dinner table, they should be at a hospital.

But raids are supposed to be hard to eat. So let´s assume for now that a meal that is a raid is by definition spicy. With all things spicy, this is a highly variable term. There are people that would say a simple sausage is already spicy, while others think of a green pepper only beginning to be spicy.

So assuming from the point that I maybe am severely hindered but not that ill that a hospital would let me go on station there(thinking about diabetes for example): If I am able to eat a sausage, am I also able to eat a Texan Firefighter Chilly?

Of course there is something that probably everyone heard when at the table at home: Just try it before you say you don´t like it.
That is something I can fully agree with. But only unreasonable parents force their children over and over again to eat the same vegetable because they happen to like it themselves, hoping that finally, maybe the day before the children leave the care of their parents, they will start to like it. This works as good for my point as it does for yours, raiders were fed open world for years. So if raids turn out to be not the success Anet is looking for, would you agree that they, as reasonable parents, should try to feed us something else to get our sweets we all want?

I made my initial analogy while walking, on my phone. I appreciate that it has flaws.
The point I’m trying to make that if two people have equal access to something, but only one of them is willing to do the task required to get it, only that person is entitled to the thing. The other person can’t flounce and cry and scream and demand it be handed to them the way they want it to be handed to them. They just don’t get it. They can stand themselves up and do the task required to get the thing, and it will likely be waiting there for them for a long long time, but until that happens, they don’t get the thing.

The people in this thread demanding they get raid rewards for doing open world content are that second person collapsing to the ground, demanding they be handed something, just because person 1 has it, despite the fact that person 1 actually did the task required to get it.
They are the younger sibling, refusing to eat their (perfectly healthy, nutritional, and tasty) dinner, yet screaming and complaining and flailing and demanding they have dessert, just because big brother already has his.

The thing that they want is there. It’s been put in the game so that they can have it. They just need to get over themselves and do what’s necessary.

Ohoni.6057:

The thing is, that car fits my model of the world better than yours, because while some people might be able to afford that car on only a fraction of a year’s salary, then even if it would take me decades to save up, I could still eventually get that car, because I would be making the same dollars as that other person, just in smaller amounts. It wouldn’t be a case where the car can only be bought using “Doctor bucks,” which are impossible to get outside of being a doctor no matter how many hours you put in.

This isn’t saying what you think it’s saying…

You’re just as entitled to access that car through the designated system of acquisition as anyone else. You pay for it, just as the other person pays for it.
With money.

What you’re asking for is that you be allowed to barter for the car with livestock and grain.

Ohoni.6057:

Please understand that this is the situation here, it is not just a matter of “well, they should try harder,” it’s that you asking players to engage in something that might be in great conflict with their lives, and which they have zero interest in, but that they might do anyways if they want the rewards bad enough. That is not “fair” to them when the other side of the coin is people having the time of their lives doing the same content, and laughing about all those “whiners” who want the same rewards for not doing that content.

I understand perfectly.
They just won’t be able to access the rewards that come from completing content if they are unable to complete content.

It’s…not a difficult concept.

And if you think this will be fixed by allowing all rewards to be achievable in all areas of the game, you’re delusional.
The reward I will get for completing a raid should not, and should NEVER, be the same as the reward you can get for downing Shadow Behemoth a few times, or whatever “fix” you envision.

I’m sorry. This is no judgment to you as a player or anything. But raid exclusive rewards are here to stay, and if you are unable to put in the time and effort to completing raids, then you are not entitled (bet no ones ever said that to you before) to the rewards.

Torolan.5816:

Canakun.8031:

I prefer the following analogy (I’ll keep it food themed):

A child wants dessert.
They must eat their dinner before they can receive that dessert.
Their older sibling is provided the same set of rules for getting their dessert – that they must first eat their dinner. The older sibling does so, and does it faster because they are better at handling cutlery, or they enjoyed their dinner a bit more, and so they get their dessert.

You see?
If you want your dessert, you’re gonna need to eat your dinner first.

And if you want your legendary armor, you’re gonna need to complete your raid first. Just like older sibling did.

And again, I agree with that. But that is not my point at all.
I will stay with your analogy and throw in that the younger sibling has maybe a slow metabolism and so prefers food with much sugar because a piece of dark bread will rummage in it´s belly for hours. Not a problem at all until here, he just takes a little time to do it. This is the group of people that can do, but won´t necessarily do it.
But let´s say you try to serve him a salty meal with him being allergic to salt. He won´t eat it, because he simply can´t. This would be the group of people who simply can´t do it, even if they wanted to do it.
Should the younger sibling not receive a desert because he was unable, not unwilling, to diggest the salty meal that is prerequisite for the dessert?

But we aren’t talking about inability, we’re talking about refusal.
If you’re unable to move your character, use your characters skills, dodge roll, jump, press keys, target an opponent, then I’ll agree that you have an inability to complete raid content – but you also have an inability to play Guild Wars 2 at all. Arguably that’s all you need to do in order to complete raid content, and since we don’t know enough that would suggest otherwise, I’d suggest there’s no point even complaining about it.

The issue people are having is that the rewards are gated behind content that they don’t want to do (they don’t even know what the content looks like, they just see the word raid and suddenly spit the dummy), not that they are unable to do it. That’s fine. If they refuse to do content, and they want to constantly go on and on about how they’re refusing to do the content, cool. That’s fine. But they don’t get dessert.

If something has happened to the child that has made them physically incapable of consumption, then something is medically wrong with that child and they shouldn’t be at the dinner table, they should be at a hospital.

Ohoni.6057:

There you go mate, you even said it yourself. If you can’t put in the time and effort to do raid content, you do NOT deserve the rewards that come from raid content.

Not in the least. Time and effort spent in a raid is not magical time and effort, it’s just time and effort, equivalent to time and effort spent doing other things. If you spend a few hours in a raid, it’s equivalent to spending a few hours doing things elsewhere in the game. There can be a slight bonus top the rewards due to difficulty, but nothing obscene. Completing a raid can offer a higher quantity of rewards than spending the same amount of time in some other type of content, but there is no reason for it to contain rewards that cannot be earned through other means, even if additional time and effort is spent in them.

You seem to have a very skewed idea of what effort is.
If you don’t want to put the effort into getting those rewards, you aren’t going to get those rewards, and I think it’ll do you a lot of good to just accept that.
If you want legendary armor, I’m sure you’ll put the effort into doing the content to get it. Good luck!

Torolan.5816:

Canakun.8031:

You don’t seem to be understanding this too well.
Rewards aren’t gated to certain people. They are gated to certain content.

EVERY. SINGLE. PLAYER. Will have an equal opportunity to earn the legendary raid armor set.
If you don’t want to do that content? Oops. Too bad for you. No legendary raid armor set.

Maybe you have seen this too at some restaurants:
No shirt, no shoes, no service.

In this case, this means that everybody does NOT have the same opportunities. Some types of people are excluded by default(old, very young, disabled, slow in general), some have to have all the stars align for them to make it happen(the curiously particulary despised group of working dads and moms, guildless, the non comformists, solo players, small guild players, the perceived as worthless class players, the right class but wrong style of play gamers) and some simply have the necessary time and commitment to do it.

Oh wait, can i hear you say, the Average Joe with 2 kids, bills, normal friends, a house in need of repair and a wife can of course make raids! All he has to do is organize his guild in a low friday night and practice, practice, practice until he makes it in the course of some weeks. It´s entirely his fault if he does not invest the time or motivation needed for it because he is lazy or has other duties, then the raid is just not for him.

Funnily, this is even the truth. But that truth does not help Anet in the slightest when the Average Joe outnumbers Hardcore Hans.
Some years ago, I read an article that the most sold game in my country in Central Europe was indeed an agricultural truck driver simulator. The article stated that even grown men still love to play with big machines, so construction and agricultural games sell like crazy.

tl;dr : Raids are now a reality, best of luck with it, but the premise that everyone has equal opportunities to make them is at least highly debatable.

I prefer the following analogy (I’ll keep it food themed):

A child wants dessert.
They must eat their dinner before they can receive that dessert.
Their older sibling is provided the same set of rules for getting their dessert – that they must first eat their dinner. The older sibling does so, and does it faster because they are better at handling cutlery, or they enjoyed their dinner a bit more, and so they get their dessert.

You see?
If you want your dessert, you’re gonna need to eat your dinner first.

And if you want your legendary armor, you’re gonna need to complete your raid first. Just like older sibling did.

Windsagio.1340:

Canakun.8031:

There’s a really old-fashioned idea that people can be proud of their accomplishments, and typically, completing a raid is a pretty big accomplishment, within the scope of the game.

Except the conversation at hand isn’t about them being proud of their accomplishments (such as they are), but about them getting stuff for doing what they want to do exclusively.

Anet has some reasonable looking business reasons to put in these rewards, but let’s not pretend this is about the joy of doing it.

Except it isn’t exclusive. The content isn’t exclusive.
Everybody can do this content, and when you complete the content, you are rewarded for it.
Just like every other piece of content within the game. You do the content, which everyone is free to do, and when you complete it, you are given a reward for that content.
If you cannot complete the content, or if you do not wish to complete the content, you are not entitled to the rewards associated with that content.
The only content that is exclusive is Heart of Thorns, and that’s exclusive to people who purchase it. Everything within the expansion is available to play.
If you’re having trouble understanding that you must play the game in order to achieve things within that game, and earn rewards within that game, perhaps GW2 isn’t for you.

Gynok.1756:

Bearhugger.4326:

Seera.5916:

Ohoni and others who do not favor exclusive rewards:

Would it hugely bother you if in say 6 months to a year, they come up with an equivalently difficult and time consuming process in another type of game play and awarded legendary armor pieces that were of a different skin?

Personally, it would bother me.

If Arenanet gave away the Heritage armor sets for free just because it’s 3 years later, I would be upset. That skin is there to show that I have done a bunch of stuff in Guild Wars 1. That game is still running, so go play Eye of the North if you want it.

Same thing for raider rewards. Prestige skins are there to represent their exploits in the game’s world, so if you want the items, do what they did.

What I would be okay with would be if they made a slightly modified version of the skin and made that one easier to obtain. So you can still tell who did the raid and who didn’t.

I think a few players got used to having access to all the skins due to Guild Wars 2’s failure to provide players with enough prestige skins, but the game was clearly advertised as rewarding with such skins, just like Guild Wars 1 did.

I think they realized their failure to have enough prestige skins by 2014 when they put those those new PvP and LS armor sets, and with Heart of Thorns’ legendary armors it looks like they’re finally getting on with the program. I expect the 2 new armor sets announced on the website to be prestige skins rewarding specific feats.

I wouldn’t care if they put GW1 skins or any other skin in the game as reward for something you do in GW2. Most of the people who want exclusive gear only want to brag about it. Why does one need to know if someone has done a raid and if one hasn’t? Sounds like someone needs to prove other people that they’re better than others in the game but why? That I really can’t understand.

There’s a really old-fashioned idea that people can be proud of their accomplishments, and typically, completing a raid is a pretty big accomplishment, within the scope of the game.

Ohoni.6057:

We still don’t know how they are implementing this. They might even have a token system. If the first boss is easier and more casual player friendly, it might be possible for the more casual folks to get some goodies too.

The thing is, that might actually involve more raiding than just beating the thing. If I’m going to be raiding then I’d rather just beat the thing for full credit, but I really don’t want to be raiding at all, ever, so I’m looking for alternate methods that allow people to work towards those rewards without having to even start a raid (aside from maybe running it once like dungeon story mode).

I don’t believe that it would be wise to make all types of legendaries available for all game modes just yet. There needs to be material for the other expansions.

If they want to add content for later expansions, they can just add new versions of the armor. They already have one of each weapon as Legendaries (three GSs), but that isn’t stopping them from starting in on a second set with HoT.

Would it hugely bother you if in say 6 months to a year, they come up with an equivalently difficult and time consuming process in another type of game play

It would be better than nothing, but less than we deserve. We shouldn’t have to wait six months to start on a time consuming process. If it’s a time consuming process then we should be able to start immediately, if they make us wait six months to start then the process should be relatively quick to complete.

I think in practical terms, I’m fine with “raiders get it first,” but the first non-raiders should be earning the gear around 1-2 months after the first raiders start getting it, not 6-12 months later.

and awarded legendary armor pieces that were of a different skin?

This part is a definite “no.” It has to be the same skin or there’s no point. Now it’s possible that the alternative skin would look better to me than the original, in which case, I wouldn’t personally mind that much, but on principle each player should be able to get the version they want to have, and there’s no “fair” system for saying that one group can only get version A while the other group can only get version B and expect not to have members of each group upset about which version they were arbitrarily assigned.

And each area having its own skin is already par for the course for a lot of end game gear (exotics and/or ascended). Fractals have their own skin items. Teq has their own skin items. PvP has their own skin items. WvW has their own skin items. PvE has a ton of unique skins. The only area that does not have exclusive items are dungeons thanks to the dungeon reward tracks in PvP.

Yes, and all of those should continue to evolve as well, and hopefully will.

Do you see a lot of people rubbing the Fractal tonic in peoples’ faces? Because that is a very rare Fractal level 50 reward that has a drop rate about that of a precursor from the mystic forge apparently.

No, but that isn’t a skin, it’s a tonic. Do raiders want a unique tonic? I’d be fine with them having a unique tonic. Heck, for that matter, if they want a unique Outfit, I’d be totally fine with that too, just not armor skins.

Which to me says that the assumption that the exclusive rewards will suddenly turn this community bad is a bit unfounded. Not saying it won’t happen, but not saying it will happen either.

It’s already happening. In case you haven’t noticed, we’ve already had several examples of it in this thread alone.

You don’t seem to be understanding this too well.
Rewards aren’t gated to certain people. They are gated to certain content.

EVERY. SINGLE. PLAYER. Will have an equal opportunity to earn the legendary raid armor set.
If you don’t want to do that content? Oops. Too bad for you. No legendary raid armor set.

Ohoni.6057:

Sure they can. They give them the same unique rewards as they give to “every mediocre/inexperienced player.” Both groups get rewards. The hardcore players don’t deserve better rewards just because they’re hardcore players, any more than the other players deserve worse rewards because they are not. They are both players in the game and both equally deserving of rewards for their time and effort

There you go mate, you even said it yourself. If you can’t put in the time and effort to do raid content, you do NOT deserve the rewards that come from raid content.

If a player like yourself puts in the time and effort to complete raid content, you are then as equally deserving of the associated rewards as anyone else who puts their time and effort into completing that content.

Honestly you just seem really incendiary, one of those people who genuinely gets off from complaining constantly.
You have addressed your own grievance. Give it a rest.

Shinya.2598:

I’m sry but i think it looks terrible

Thanks for your insight!

minbariguy.7504:

Ayrilana.1396:

minbariguy.7504:

Well, according to Gaile, they have given veteran players a free character slot. She didn’t mention anything about needing to pre-purchase:

Gaile Gray.6029:

We’ve given veteran players a free character slot, and as others have pointed out, a beta test is not a demo or a preview. If you’re unsure about purchasing Heart of Thorns, consider reviewing our extensive Heart of Thorns website for a great deal of information, then make the decision that is right for you.

It seems that way because you’re taking it out of context.

I quoted her post in its entirety. It happens to be written in such a way as to make ANet seem more generous than they truly are, as well as being a false statement.

If it had been said “We’ve given veteran players who pre-purchased HoT a free character slot…” perhaps the meaning would have been more clear, and less insulting to those of us who are veterans but are not pre-purchasing.

But hey, why should a Communications Team Lead worry about, like, words and stuff?

No matter. I’m done. I uninstalled GW2 last night, so they no longer have to concern themselves about how to wring more money out of me.

Does anyone want my stuff?

Gods, how dramatic. You should write a soap opera.

The post was made in the context of a discussion about pre-purchase perks.

Karuna.1357:

Hi hi there. We would certainly be interested in talking to you. I’ll keep an eye open for you in game, and have our Aussie officer do the same.

Cool! I’m on now if that’s any help.

Heya. I’d be interested in joining.
I was especially interested with your buddy system. It isn’t something I’ve seen or heard of in a guild before. I want to join especially just to see how that works.

I’m 22, Australian, Uni student, work two jobs, took a massive break from GW2 but came back to get back in the swing of things before the expansion (which I’m REALLY keen for).

I played GW1 and GW2 both since release so I’m quite big with the franchise.

I main engineer and I’m on TC.

Not sure if you wanted me to say anything else but that’s me.
Hope to see you in game!

Peace.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Knox.8962:

The condi engineer currently has the highest DPS in the game.

Four ice bows will still drop most bosses faster than the time it takes for a condi engi to ramp up his damage.

Just something to keep in mind.

You just compared the damage from four people to the damage from one person.

Hey there. I’m struggling to get 2 of 3 of the achievements in Mystery Cave.
Is anyone possibly able to help me out at some point? Or does anyone else need them too?

Is there a sneaky way to do them in a party? I’m getting a little tired of it to be honest! (attempted this COUNTLESS times.)

Thanks!

Looking for large PvX/WvW guild that actively does guild missions!

PM me in game -> Safemode if you have room for me.

Yeah!

Thanks guys, you all made me feel a bit less jealous.

I mean I know it’s only two hours so it’s not a huge issue but just the idea that others will get to check it out and I won’t is a little disheartening. I’ll get the chance eventually though I’m sure :P

Title says it all.
Just wondering because I’ve noticed people are starting to get invites, and I’m kinda of surprised (as well as being an entitled little baby, but hey) that I didn’t get one. Simply because I’ve, you know, been playing since the first beta of the base game, have clocked thousands of hours, spent a bunch of cash on the gem store, have never been suspended or banned or anything like that (AND applied for the beta).

If it was just random that’s totally understandable but I’m just…like I said, surprised, and I guess a little bit disappointed that I won’t be one of the people who get to participate in this.

So was it just random selection or was there some hidden criteria?

Daddicus.6128:

No, they only send them out if you have signed up for them.

I…uhh…
I think you should re-read this, bro.
Not signing up for email alerts and then complaining about not receiving email alerts is ridiculously silly.

Daddicus.6128:

And they only sent one that forcefully said anything about having to log in often. The other emails were a lot less pressing on that issue. Do you suppose a player who is forced to take a year off from the game is going to notice one email?

If a player takes a year off from the game, and the game releases temporarily free content…
The company has done their job the minute they alert the player.
It is beyond the responsibility of anet to force people to read their emails.

Daddicus.6128:

Without digging (here or on the wiki), you wouldn’t know that except for the month leading up to Season 2, or the 2 weeks after it started.

Yeah, complaining about a company not being perfect at an experimental way of telling a story is a little ridiculous. They’ve stated they are working on rolling out LS season 1. God forbid some players have to actually utilize the internet/forums for some back story.

Daddicus.6128:

And please remember how frustrating Season 1 was. I know several people who quit playing during that time because of the incredible speed of the updates. They simply couldn’t keep up. I myself played 2-3 hours a day, and I could not keep up.

Subjective. I work full time and played similar time frames to you, as did a lot of my friends, and every single one of us loved Season 1 (I don’t know about my mates, but I got every single meta achievement done).

As for OP, sorry you got sick, but take it as a lesson and sign up for the newsletter. That way you don’t miss content.
Remember, this had all been free. If you had paid for it you might have a reason to complain about it being ä kick in the teeth"but, you didn’t.

Bump!
/15characters