Guild Wars 2

lilz shorty.1879:

Chaith, the one time you guys ran 3 zerker (until nos swapped to soldier + plagued), was the only time I saw your team sortve stray away from the bruiser meta where team fights were the focus and open engagements. But it seems like that was short lived and that was the only time people thoroughly enjoyed watching ESL.

We enjoyed the hell out of that too. I always bring up in team discussion the desire to theorycraft another comp like that, but it always comes down to the fact that there’s not enough pressure in the game compared to people’s defensive cooldowns for it to be reliable.

Also Readymade, my condolences. But since the Minstrels amulet is no longer a part of the game, this is probably a sign from ArenaNet you should play something with at least an average mechanical skill ceiling.

This level of uproar over losing the 1-2-3 I 1v3’d Amulet with 560 dead stats, delicious.

Cele Scrapper sustain indeed dumb, using Minstrels and Inventions over Firearms I could roll around and hold a point against 2 Nuclear bombs. I should have streamed it.

Everyone seems so settled in and confident that the future meta will be nothing but Celestial, we’ll see how Marauder Revenant and Carrion Chill Reaper being so bloody amazing will affect comps.

Anastasis.7258:

Bunkers/Supports supposed to be hard to kill, but deals no damages. Reward/Risk 0% and 0%
Dps supposed to squishy, but deals the most damage and impact the game with good plays. Reward/Risk 100%/100%
Hybrid supposed to be medicore on both sustain and dmg, and shouldn’t be able to kill any bunkers even with two of them. But currently Hybrid is killing everything while being unkillable. Reward/Risk 100%/0%

I respect the fact you had reasons to disagree with ArenaNet’s decision.

You mention 0% Risk, 0% Reward is how Minstrel bunkers were supposed to be? Haha. Did you solo queue on Minstrel Druid this week and just see how many players don’t know better than to outnumber bunkers?

Keeping even 2 people from being in other fights is ‘carrying’ in this game mode. I think ArenaNet was right to remove it. It allowed people to carry a little bit too easily.

I think the pure Support role should be better supported in PvP. That can be done through better ways than increasing personal survivability (1vX) of Supports/Bunkers, which is the definition of Minstrel Amulet.

glaphen.5230:

Yes and that has nothing to do with Minstrel’s besides maybe the Guardian but I didn’t see the game. Druid could have done the same thing guaranteed with Cleric’s, but maybe it was 3 bruisers with low burst potential and the vitality could have played a part in surviving that, so that means remove any meta changing elements before it plays out right?

No, for the record, Druids can absolutely not 1vX multiple enemies with the same ease with Clerics as they can with Minstrels. This is absolute common sense, similarly how not playing bunker thief is common sense. Sorry not sorry.

If you’re posed with this scenario:

“The Druid survived 3 equally skilled people long enough for teammates to rotate in and not be faced with a losing fight”

And the burning question you have is, ‘Well, were any of those 3 people bruisers?’

It makes me think you maybe have a very wrong idea of what an acceptable 1vX time to kill should be, m8.

I don’t wanna point out the obvious, but Anet has seen enough of the Minstrels Amulet for it to ‘play out.’

glaphen.5230:

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

have 16k already which is enough to survive single person burst

Don’t you love it when everybody in conquest takes turns attacking you?

Get out

Yeah don’t you? Because you aren’t going to survive multiple people either way unless they aren’t damage builds.

Oh that’s where you couldn’t be more wrong. Various Minstrels amulet users can and did survive long enough to hold points neutralized while outnumbered until rotations can happen.

How do you think the a game’s time had elapsed 15 minutes to time-out before teams had reached 150 points? Because exactly what you’re saying can’t happen, was happening. Before even the concentration stat went live.

glaphen.5230:

have 16k already which is enough to survive single person burst

Don’t you love it when everybody in conquest takes turns attacking you?

Get out

glaphen.5230:

The vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest. The 5.5k healths only benefits are once a fight, possible burst protection if currently above normal max health and they can’t take it away during the CC, increased downed health but weaker to healing skills while downed, Necromancer life force. Could be a problem of too many bruisers that can’t actually burst quickly and the meta didn’t adapt.

You say vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest, this is true, but only in a picky and disingenuous way. When I say ‘increases sustain’ I mean increases their up-time to stay alive on point under high pressure. This is because your personal survivability increases by decreasing the threat of getting caught out by immobilize, condition overload, multiple attackers.

If you survive that immobilize combo and get to your next heal rotation, you’ve added an insane amount of up-time on that point, against enemies exhausted of their cooldowns. Essentially the holes in your defensive cooldown rotation where you’re vulnerable to being downed get erased. Plug the holes, survive indefinitely against things which you never could survive with a much lower health pool.

Other builds are forced to give up the point and kite in order to cope with this extra pressure, to allow their actual sustain to work properly.

I encourage you to play Clerics Bunker Guardian (No vitality stat) without Force of Will, and then enjoy then toggle Force of Will on, and tell me how your life changes with 3,000 more health to buffer all those defensive cooldowns.

These changes are more than fine. HgH and Adaptive Armor are still godly.

Edit: That’s how you know they were too good.

glaphen.5230:

Chaith.8256:

As soon as Minstrels was added, the pace of top tier competitive games/scrims on EU was slowed to record low levels.

We’re talking, 130-125 timer wins. With skilful rotation-matching, and neutralizing of points, the match is twisted into a whole different game, one that clearly Anet wasn’t happy with.

Something that I feel that Anet was looking more at was:

• How is the overall pace of the game? Are fights ending when one side becomes outnumbered? Are kills happening?

• What is the time-to-neutralize for 2 roamers against one Minstrels bunker? Does that fit in line with the current healthy time for 2 roamers to force the Minstrels bunker to concede the point, or die?

Don’t shoot the messenger guys, but it looks like Minstrels Amulet failed to pass those little checks, despite having 560 useless stats (concentration stat not online yet).

5.5k health once a battle made games extremely slow somehow, you sure it wasn’t just Druids sustain in general? Because there shouldn’t be a difference in a bunkers survivability off of just 5.5k health besides Guardians and Necros.

I’ve seen your posts in other threads and while I see where you’re coming from, it seems like you severely underestimate how vitality affects high sustain professions.

Vitality drastically increases one’s ability to sustain in outnumbered fights (1v2+) where pressure sharply increases. You’re correct in saying that Clerics is ‘just as good’, for a 1v1 in which there is not enough pressure to quickly overcome your defenses.

Vitality makes you extremely harder to neutralize by outnumbering. How many times have you died as a sustain class because you just couldn’t survive a few more seconds until your next life saving dodge or heal? Every death.

Clerics Druid for example will still be great. It will just be dealt with easily when outnumbered.

Hope that explains.

As soon as Minstrels was added, the pace of top tier competitive games/scrims on EU was slowed to record low levels.

We’re talking, 130-125 timer wins. With skilful rotation-matching, and neutralizing of points, the match is twisted into a whole different game, one that clearly Anet wasn’t happy with.

Something that I feel that Anet was looking more at was:

• How is the overall pace of the game? Are fights ending when one side becomes outnumbered? Are kills happening?

• What is the time-to-neutralize for 2 roamers against one Minstrels bunker? Does that fit in line with the current healthy time for 2 roamers to force the Minstrels bunker to concede the point, or die?

Don’t shoot the messenger guys, but it looks like Minstrels Amulet failed to pass those little checks, despite having 560 useless stats (concentration stat not online yet).

Miltek.2104:

Clap, clap.
And Scrapper won’t have class mechanic on the launch.

Yeah, so Irenio has made it clear that a post HoT alteration of the Scrapper mechanic is on the table, so, might as well continue discussion and keep it relevant.

Adamantium.3682:

There is way too much vitriol in your posts for anyone to have a meaningful conversation with you.

I would like to hear the opinion on this from an established high level PvP player like Chaith. That would be a valuable persoective I think. I have my own ideas but it would be nice to hear from someone who has been there.

Hi, I dunno if there is any meaningful discussion to be had ITT, lol.

I’ll just be over here with my 10 foot pole, keeping to myself

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

There are two components I can mention right now, the rest you’ll have to wait until the 23rd to see:

Gyros should be a good bit more snappy when it comes to staying near you and are also going to experience some additional survivability.

Rocket Charge will have the leap play at start rather than finish (like other leaps) and isn’t going to be so erratic once you’ve closed to your target.

I look forward to testing the new Rocket Charge physics, sounds like a step in the right direction.

Can you give us a vague indication on the significance of changes still under wraps?

cakeonroof.7385:

Interesting stuff on here. YOU GUYS ARE GIVING ME IDEAS!!!

During BWE 3 there was a thread on the pvp forum that bothered me a bit. I’m not entirely certain as I don’t play in NA but I think a group of “top tier” tourney players felt the scrapper was so over the top OP that the thread seemed fear mongering. They also wanted anet to tone the trait line down. I’m also not certain about the classes they main but I think it was a couple rangers and mesmer

I’m still irked by that.

The PvP Scrapper can be extremely tanky if desired.

It plays a kind of similar role to a stone heart D/D Elementalist, in practice. It’s often a safe, easy, 1v1 oriented point fighter.

Too early to tell if the Scrapper comes out on top in that role.

I’m excited to use Scrapper in teamfighter builds, to utilize fully the Function Gyro, which is useless 1v1.

miriforst.1290:

The fact that we are shown the availability of the gyro exclusively through a trait icon and that the skin is the only non unique gyro we have screams “we had another idea in mind about a fuel system for the gyros but then realized that it does not apply at all to scrappers who choose not to use a single gyro for various reasons so we threw together something at the last minute to work as an arbitrary mechanic to show off. Oh darn, we better apply a arbitrary max duration to the gyros now that we lack a fuel system as a limiter”.

Similarly how the druids glyphs interacts with the druids primary mechanic (changes functions) without leaving the druid mechanic unusable without glyphs, couldn’t the same be done with a fuel mechanic powering stomps/revives and gyros?
A scrapper who do not use any gyros or who choose not to refuel them got more fuel left for reviving and stomping (or whatever), and for an engineer using gyros it becomes a resource management game where you prioritize what gyros to extend.

And visually you could do amazing things with a engineer mechanic such as indicating recharges, fuel and health with gauges and similar instruments on your skill bar.

Yeah, the fuel system pretty much is just way to put a roleplay spin on the fact that Gyros have durations. The ‘fuel system’ was just offhandedly mentioned without any substance, kind of misleading, in fact.

My personal preference for Gyros were for them to be untargetable (invulnerable), live fast and wreck face as focal points, or extensions of the Engineer’s abilities.

lorddarkflare.9186:

The ‘fuel’ systems people keep on clamoring for would be pretty lame.

Just because the elite lacks flavor does not mean that we should aim for the most simplistic mechanic we can think of.

The fuel system people are clamoring for would be better than nothing, but both are settling more than I want to.

Frenk.5917:

Also, #2 hit 3 targets only on a 180 radius, which means you hit only on 90 range in front of you, while all melees skills have 130 range.

The radius is measured from the middle of an area to the edge of that area.. You’re thinking the Hammer #2 is 180 in diameter, AKA 90 distance in all directions around the Engineer, but a Radius means it’s 180 range in all directions around the Engineer.

It’s a greater hitbox than normal melee skills.

miriforst.1290:

And with all these fancy new UI elements with flames on berserk mode, the celestial avatar, the revenants energy bar and so on, would it really hurt to have a bar indicating the status of our function gyro? For this gyro to be useful in multitasking situations it would be helpful to know the hp of your gyro while its reviving someone off screen by looking at a bar over your toolbelt skills or something. Maybe even show the active action so that you know how far it is in the stomping process/if it have been interrupted etc.

On a sidenote, it would be interesting to be able to send out your function gyro to refuel other gyros, sort of like a tanker plane. And thus the fuel would actually be fuel…

Maybe it could even be used to repair some structures? Oh well, time to stop dreaming and be realistic.

Really, yes, all that’s needed is for the Scrapper design to sell the f-gyro better. A ui, slightly increased depth, mechanically, and it can work. The exclusive class mechanic needs to be desirable and a little flashy.

tigrawahi.2694:

I like the Op idea but i will go with something easier to implement.
My sugestion:

When you equip the scrapper elite trrait line ,a function gyro will deploy and circle around the scrapper,it can not be targeted or damaged until is not commanded to stomp or res,once it has done his job or its destroyed in the process it will go on a 10sec(?) cooldown before automaticaly redeploying it self around the scrapper.

This function gyro functnionality(:P) can be expanded via traits.
New 3 traits to replace the existing adept traits that are a little bland :

- Function cleansing : the function gyro peroidically removes conditions from you,when it explodes gives regeneration.

- Function velocity : recive a 25 % increase speed while function gyro is active,when it explodes gives swiftnes.

- Function empowerment : gain a 2% bonus damge for boon on you,when it explodes gives 3 stacks of might.

I think this is a simplier way to ad some functionality to a rather bland mechanic.

Not every Engineer will be using f-gyro often, if all the adept traits were only activated on f-gyro use there’d be riots m8.

Why is this tagged beta, lol

JinDaVikk.7291:

---

Engi:
based off chaith hgh nades

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhSsY9Vw6KQ+FLTGF9cn37tYzUABw3+kcPHA-TJBHwAGuAAAeAAd2fwZZAA

I incorporated Scrapper into my build a bit differently.

Protection Injection > Invigorating speed. The frequency in which you get swiftness is not reliable or even.. frequent.

Stability on Function Gyro > Protection on Healing Turret (when it gets nerfed to 6s). This is very important for teamfight utility, as well as granting a ton of might stacks from the master trait via stability uptime.

You now have might stacking that far exceeds 25, recommended to drop battle sigil for Energy/leeching.

The V.8759:

Hey guys!

Here is the thread about bugs exclusively for the scrapper! Please do not post any suggestions or something that does not have to do with scrapper!

List:

• Heal Resonator doesn’t seem to be working with Medic Gyro.
• Rapid Regenerator tooltip not affected by Healing Power (The healing itself is)
• Defense Field does not have 240 radius
• Expert Examination doesn’t trigger on Net Turret (Overcharge)
• Detenction Pulse does not reveal NPC’s in Verdant Brink
• Gyro’s have a tendancy to attack enemies while not having attacks
• Function Gyro does not destroy upon finishing on reviving, making it wander around doing nothing
• Rocket Charge doesn’t trigger leap finisher when you leap out of the field. It also does not adjust the range to the target at the first leap making it miss when cast from short range. Also seems to be affected by movement impairing condition. First leap is in your facing direction instead of target.
• Function Gyro interrupts its stomp when moving too far away.
• Adaptive Armor reduces condi duration also by 20%, as its supposed to only decrease the condi damage
• AMR not working with heal gyro
• Stability from stabilasation core not always applying.
• Recovery Matrix has no ICD making it stack high with Healing Turret+ Cleansing Burst
• Hammer 4 acts weird, some say block lasts too long, I rather experienced it starting too late and ending too late.

I have just started testing so I do not have much yet. Please post any bugs and I will update list!

Additional bugs:

Function Gyro sometimes isn’t spawned precisely on the target, causing travel time, and other unknown factors cause Function Gyro to take too long to start performing a stomp.

Function Gyro can only be activated to revive people when you’re NOT in reviving range yourself. It must be activated when you start reviving.

Activating the Function Gyro to stomp often causes your character to start stomping as well, specifically when you’re not in stomping range, effectively taking you out of the fight for a moment, performing a frivolous stomp.

Decisive Renown, only activating when Function Gyro expires. Not actually on all finish or revives as the tooltip states.

Extra suggestion for Decisive Renown: let all enemy deaths and allied revives activate this trait, adjust GCD up if deemed necessary. The Engineer way is often to cleave enemies out instead of stomping.

Shaogin.2679:

Sorry, to be more clear, not looking for random builds. Most of these I’ve tried, they’re just a different take on current builds. No, what I’m looking for is something on par with D/D Ele. That’s the way these people are describing it, and I’ve seen no such thing.

Also, to those using the healing Gyro, why would you take that over Healing Turret?

This are some of the competitive tanky Scrapper builds in PvP:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASlUUhqrYnXwdLQ7FLsFFdwP8JPYIeiBgYHVFPBA-TJhHwADuAAAeAAj2fwYZAA

The above build is a 1v1 or 1v2 focused build.

You can play a very tanky, teamfight power-cleave oriented build too:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhSsY9Vw6KQ+FLTGFdcn3/t4zUABwnk75A-TJBHwAAuAAd2fwZZgBPAAA

Josh Davis.6015:

Just want to make sure the “devs” part of this thread was complete.

S Tier
Josh “Grouch” Davis

D Tier
Hugh “Nightmare” Norfolk

So cold.

I think your PvP tier list is too subjective, not conservative enough in your assumptions, and not based on conquest.

Tongku.5326:

Chaith.8256:

I posted a suggestion in Irenio’s Scrapper discussion thread, and a couple people wanted me to re-post in my own thread, so here we are.

The goal I had in mind when I set out were to build towards a more robust Scrapper identity, aesthetically as well as mechanically. A secondary goal was to widen the usefulness of Scrapper mechanics across more game modes.

In my opinion, the Function Gyros need to be strong pillar for the mechanical identity of the Scrapper, what really sets apart a Scrapper from an Engineer. This is the class mechanic we get from the first minor trait, a parallel to Reaper’s Shroud, Celestial Avatar, Overload Attunement, Continuum Split, Dragonhunter Virtues, Facet of Nature, Primal Bursts.

Other than the Scrapper, only the Daredevil’s third dodge bar doesn’t really alter the profession mechanics significantly from the core profession.

Currently, the Scrapper defining minor trait reads this: “You gain access to the Function Gyro, which can finish a foe or revive an ally at range.”

What I would suggest is:

Function Gyro: Gain access to up to 3 non-combative (unable to be damaged or targeted) Function Gyros which closely encircle you. Periodically construct a function Gyro every 60 seconds. Command a Function Gyro to join the fray (becoming targetable) to finish foes or revive allies. (20s CD).

Reworking Impact Savant, the last Minor, as well:

Impact Savant: Insert Universally Appealing Effect here, and reduce the duration of incoming stuns by 10% for each encircling Function Gyro.

Player suggestions ITT for Impact Savant that are based on how many Function Gyros are available:

• Apply Slow when disabling foes
• % Condi durration increase (helps with vulnerability as well as dmg-condi).
• % Boon durration increase.
• % Movementspeed.
• Regular might/boon stacking.
• Regular vulnerability stacking (Gyros fire weak vuln stacking bolts).

Further ideas, player suggestions ITT – for a complete change to Impact Savant:

• ‘Gain +x% damage for xs when CCing your foe. You also gain x Endurance when hit by CC.’
• ‘When CCing a foe, deal moderate damage to nearby enemies and Cripple them. When hit while CCed, your foes are Slowed for xs.’
• ’Grant x Stacks of Might for xs to nearby allies when CCing a foe. Gain Regeneration when hit while CCed.
• ‘Super Speed applied by you also grants a x% damage bonus. You receive x% less damage while under the effect of Super Speed.’

What this accomplishes is creates a system of Gyro management that Scrappers in all game modes would be able to manipulate to their benefit. With infrequent use of the Function Gyros, Scrappers would benefit from Impact Savant’s effect per idle Function Gyro. Frequent use of help from a Function Gyro every 20 seconds will be possible in spurts, if they managed production well, and didn’t deplete resources.

Best of all, it’d be a constantly present theme that adds a bit more substance to the Scrapper’s core class mechanic, keeping it closer to the same feel players had when watching the Scrapper in the HoT trailer, visually, with Gyros always at their command. In my opinion the profession mechanics should be solid, whether the utility skills are used or not.

I’d like to hear feedback as well as suggestions on how to re-work the utility based Gyros away from the impending turret-state and, for example, into more unique and short-lived Gyro based attacks, rather than autonomous A.I with independent health pools. (Not to put ideas in your head!)

Thanks for reading

I would like to see the gyros completely reworked or even removed in favor of not pet based abilities. As I play WVW they will be completely useless to me outside of roaming for which I have much better options then the scrapper presents due to pet issues / pet death.

I also see this as an issue in large scale PVE encounters with lots of AOE damage as well as even some dungeon runs / bosses.

Anything pet based where the pet dies to AOE mechanics for whatever reasons (poor AI, too low health, server ability lag or whatever else) is a waste of ability slots and/or traits.

I also do not understand why the devs have taken this route in light of proven fail history in this aspect of the game with things such as necro minions, mesmer clones and ranger pets for starters. They are setting themselves up for same fail due to same reasons altogether.

Thus I can not support any changes whatsoever consuming any manhours whatsoever unless they address the above issues.

OP you outline a bunch of changes to pet functionality but your pet is dead and on CD most of the time when it needs to be available thus negating both current implimentation as well as any ideas to make these pets more useful.

Make these pets being able to survive map que vs map que vs map que battles in WVW first, then change their abilities so that they actually function with and under the effects of skill lag, meaning they involve much less instead of more calculations and operate in a simpler manner. Only AFTER this start looking at individual functionality and what to do with it.

Since completely replacing Gyros from square one is off the table, if you look at my suggestion, it provides a path for people who play in game modes that are inhospitable for A.I, they can instead reap passive benefits instead, without involving A.I.

Ardid.7203:

I think the main probem for the team is to determine exactly wich passive buff could these “inactive” Gyros give.

I would say what would take the longest is creating an animation or UI change when an Engineer becomes a Scrapper.

And just generally, I’m still extremely adamant that Scrapper should have some persistent class mechanic change. Function Gyro is circumstantial and not persistent, and this is creating a severe identity problem. Even if this happens post-expansion we still need to start being heard on this.. so thanks for all your comments, guys. I encourage anyone who’s underwhelmed by the style of Function Gyro as a class defining mechanic to post.

Since the spec patch, opening Med Kit does not provide on heal effects, and bandage does not count as a tool belt ability, but the healing ability. It’s gated.

Med Kit #1 – Med Blaster

• Doing insane healing in PvP. It’s 40 times better than it was pre-patch, while the 36% coefficient buff was nice, I think someone hit a few too many zeroes, it’s doing like 4k healing a go. Needs hotfix today.

Inventions – Automated Medical Response

• Still not resetting Cleansing Burst from Healing Turret.

I also randomly self-interrupt ALL the time when I cast my heal in PvP. Others have been complaining about this for a long time.

This has been a quick update of the stuff bothering me since the patch.

The V.8759:

Hey guys!

I was thinking of future elite specs and I came up with the idea of a technomancer. This would open up some space for actual magic and weapons like staff, focus and scepter.

My original idea was to make a kinetic energy bar, that woud fill in combat. Either way by being hit or whatever. Your toolbelts change in upkeep skills, undependant of what utility skills you take. The role of the technomancer could be something like offensive support (would fit imo). As for utility skills you can use things like consecrations since we have a source of magic.

But thematicly, how would you feel about using actual magic? I would be fine with it, as long as we dont get straight up spellcasting but instead use the magic to creatr powerful mechanical attacks.

Do you think technomancy could fit the engineer?

I had this great idea. The utilities will call forth one of your arcane clockwork creations that will wander around the area, with a small life bar, and they’ll be interactable. You and allies can press F to purchase magical items such as Gyro Sandwiches that get you out of hungrytown fast.

Miltek.2104:

I was thinking about something super defensive:
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgEEuAO4BlQ~
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQBU05FLxCmcBavQxygCr+w2qYyCw3B-TpgRgAhlBA2fAA

Sources of heal:
- Bunker Down: Perma Regeneration and Med Packs, every 2 seconds
- Swiftness and Super Speed Healing
- Backpack Regenerator
- Automatic Medical Reponse
- Engergy Amplifier (250 bonus healing power while under regeneration – perm)
- Steam Pack
- Healing Turret (or Heal Gyro)

Melandru Runes + Last minror trait = 50% stun duration reduction.

---

In other Hand you can go CC-Burst:
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgEFdAFUBmw~
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQBVSRFqpiNeBTuAtXoQaQfl+0reMAN/5A-TpgUQA1yAg9HAA

With last minror trait and mesmer runes we have our daze Duratuion increased by 48%.
Now by using: Thunderclap -> RocketCharge-> LunchPersonalBatteringRam we are inflicting stun and 4 dazes which means… 25 stacks of vulnerabilty and 40 seconds of weakness.
Even before you can use double Orbital Strike, which will be secured by Thunderclap CC combo, and then finished by hammer 2# and SD Rifle turret quick burst. Very risky, but may be awsome in practice.

You don’t actually have swiftness in that build, dude. Except for passive Elixir B proc.

Mecha Legs for movement speed will not trigger the regeneration from Rapid Regeneration

SlyDevil.3952:

The gyros would need to be damageable when they left the engineer, a stomp without counterplay is too strong.

Yeah. That’s the idea!

Dahkeus.8243:

Chaith,

I like the ideas, even if I think some of the numbers may need to be adjusted a bit. However, I would be very, very, very, very surprised if we see any changes as drastic as that this close to HoT’s launch (especially considering how much work still is being done on the Druid, who is being designed by the same guy for scrapper). I expect a few cooldown and damage number adjustments is the most we’ll see before launch, regardless of player feedback. =/

That all depends on what’s priority. How much work is left to be done on Druid? How long a development cycle would it take to change Function Gyro?

These things are uncertain, there’s only harm in remaining silent.

I think it’s going to be a really sad day when I’m playing Celestial Scrapper Rifle and nobody can tell I’m not an Engineer

Nocta.5274:

Thief is like top4 in pvp. Stop saying we’re weak because you dislike what Thief’s role is.

Voramoz.6790:

Hammer, while its skills bear testing yet, I’m not too happy about. Only in Auto Attack and Rocket Charge do you really swing the hammer. Since when are auto attack chains a thing in spvp? They are highly situational, and I’ll even grant hammer auto attack seems like a good one. But I wanted to swing the hammer more. Three of the skills are a swirly energy field, an awkward looking block, and lightning. But that is opinion based and has nothing to do with the actual mechanics or yet unknown feel of the weapon.

BWE is coming this weekend. That will be our big opportunity to validate or invalidate the many complaints. I for one expect the complaints will be largely validated.

Your complaint is that there aren’t more than 2 or 3 abilities on the hammer that have a swinging aesthetic? That’s totally subjective to personal tastes, no?

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Chaith.8256:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Chaith.8256:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Phineas Poe.3018:

because you can already use the bomb kit or grenade kit for damage, the hammer should be designed and taken for something else.

See, I don’t get this.

If this is the case, WHY do Warriors get the burst skills that they’re getting? It’s a straight up improvement. They also get a trait in their line that increases ferocity based on precision (Which is ridiculous synergy).

So they get this straight up improvement and DPS increase for just taking the trait line, and we get…

A stomp. And stability for said stomp.

I love it. I love how we’re getting boned and the only thing everyone can say is “Well golly gee willikers, you Engineers already HAVE explosives! Why are you complaining??”

Just depends on whether you value defensive traits and utility over damage.

How boned you feel largely depends on your game mode of choice.

A stomp is not a defensive trait. In fact, looking at Scrapper’s traits again, it feels like Irenio thought that “Superspeed” was a good way to make up for all Gyros being useless. The one Gyro you bothered to slot dies? Get superspeed. Leap finisher? Get superspeed. Heal, because you have superspeed. Superspeed superspeed superspeed. What? You wanted to have some fun? Nah. Here. Have superspeed. Go ahead and run around like a moron a little faster, engies. It will allow you to position yourself better for when you use your grenade kits again.

“A stomp is not a defensive trait”. Well, indeed you are correct, there’s no pulling the wool over your eyes for sure, but that’s a very odd thing to say when we’re comparing entire Elite Specs to see who’s getting ‘boned’.

The value from Scrapper in the PvP/WvW game modes where it’s most tailored to, comes largely from the extremely good sustain, stability, and tanky traits, and extremely high utility Hammer.

I wasn’t talking about the Function Gyro as a sustain/tank trait, I was referring to the Master1 and Grandmaster1 & 3 traits.

That’s why I say it’s a matter of opinion, I assume you’re primarily a PvE player, not that there’s anything wrong with that OFC.

I have 700 games in SPvP which isn’t much compared to some people, but over half those games are on my Engineer.

If you ask me the last thing we need is another bunker build. Furthermore, another “bunker” build that is just like the one we have now but with a hammer because no one gives a rats kitten , in PvE, PvP, or WvW, about more AI, and beyond that, passive, kittenty AI that isn’t even fun enough to bother building around. I’ve said it before, i’ll say it again: 50% less damage is boring. It does not actively change the way I play the game. 2 Cleanses every 3 seconds is boring. It does not actively change the way I play. Neither does a ranged stomp, neither does a mediocre heal, neither does some stealth (of which I can already get with a smoke field and some blasts, THAT stealth also won’t tell everyone where I am with a kitten gyro) and neither does an AI ridden version of Throw Mine. The only Gyro that looks even remotely useful is the whirl gyro, and that relies heavily on RNG.

I don’t know why anyone is defending or advocating the Scrapper. Even if Gyros were strong, it would still be passive gameplay, we don’t need more passive gameplay. We need something to actually change or introduce a new playstyle, you know, like every other class got? Even a third dodge is more of an impact than OH BOY, STOMPS! I cannot WAIT to use that in SPvP and SPvP only since it will get instantly destroyed by AoE in WvW and useless in PvE!

You’re incredibly angry sounding and not really appreciating some potential uses for Scrapper.

Don’t dismiss Hammer, it’s probably the most well done new weapon that ArenaNet has created since launch.

Using Hammer’s defense and utility along with Scrapper’s defensive traits as a backbone, it’ll allow for new offensive options to be taken in PvP and WvW that can now afford to bring entirely different utilities than before. And they will do some hefty damage.

Don’t focus on the Gyros, which I agree are as just as extremely short sighted as Turrets have proven to be.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Chaith.8256:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Phineas Poe.3018:

because you can already use the bomb kit or grenade kit for damage, the hammer should be designed and taken for something else.

See, I don’t get this.

If this is the case, WHY do Warriors get the burst skills that they’re getting? It’s a straight up improvement. They also get a trait in their line that increases ferocity based on precision (Which is ridiculous synergy).

So they get this straight up improvement and DPS increase for just taking the trait line, and we get…

A stomp. And stability for said stomp.

I love it. I love how we’re getting boned and the only thing everyone can say is “Well golly gee willikers, you Engineers already HAVE explosives! Why are you complaining??”

Just depends on whether you value defensive traits and utility over damage.

How boned you feel largely depends on your game mode of choice.

A stomp is not a defensive trait. In fact, looking at Scrapper’s traits again, it feels like Irenio thought that “Superspeed” was a good way to make up for all Gyros being useless. The one Gyro you bothered to slot dies? Get superspeed. Leap finisher? Get superspeed. Heal, because you have superspeed. Superspeed superspeed superspeed. What? You wanted to have some fun? Nah. Here. Have superspeed. Go ahead and run around like a moron a little faster, engies. It will allow you to position yourself better for when you use your grenade kits again.

“A stomp is not a defensive trait”. Well, indeed you are correct, there’s no pulling the wool over your eyes for sure, but that’s a very odd thing to say when we’re comparing entire Elite Specs to see who’s getting ‘boned’.

The value from Scrapper in the PvP/WvW game modes where it’s most tailored to, comes largely from the extremely good sustain, stability, and tanky traits, and extremely high utility Hammer.

I wasn’t talking about the Function Gyro as a sustain/tank trait, I was referring to the Master1 and Grandmaster1 & 3 traits.

That’s why I say it’s a matter of opinion, I assume you’re primarily a PvE player, not that there’s anything wrong with that OFC.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Phineas Poe.3018:

because you can already use the bomb kit or grenade kit for damage, the hammer should be designed and taken for something else.

See, I don’t get this.

If this is the case, WHY do Warriors get the burst skills that they’re getting? It’s a straight up improvement. They also get a trait in their line that increases ferocity based on precision (Which is ridiculous synergy).

So they get this straight up improvement and DPS increase for just taking the trait line, and we get…

A stomp. And stability for said stomp.

I love it. I love how we’re getting boned and the only thing everyone can say is “Well golly gee willikers, you Engineers already HAVE explosives! Why are you complaining??”

Just depends on whether you’re only scanning Elite specs for damage, or defensive capabilities and utility.

How boned you feel largely depends on your game mode of choice.

RunicAura.9860:

This still does not solve the issue it is still mainly a stomp and rez function. It may offer some buffs now but honestly in my opinion it still would not equal the other class new mechanic. I’d rather have a rework and take time to get it right and equal to others then have a rush patch tossing some buffs onto it and calling it done. It may not be a popular opinion I don’t know but I want a system for scrapper that makes me go wow this is cool. And the current function doesn’t give that. So if they need to overhaul it I’d rather it start now and maybe have to wait till after launch to get a worthy class mechanic.

There are definitely a population of people who would rather not have reviving and stomping as the focus of the Function Gyro. I would not be opposed, but I’m going to assume there’s too little time to start from scratch.

Miltek.2104:

Freaking great idea 5gauge!
We can have new UI bar above our endurance bar – like druid, but cut in 3 places, representing 3Gyros (something like thief’s tripple dodge). I’ve added some non-proffesional picture below ^^

A UI change would definitely get that much needed new car smell up in here. I’m for it. But it wouldn’t be absolutely necessary.

Xaylin.1860:

Two things regarding Impact Savant.

First, your suggestion: From my point of view, there are several issues with damage modifiers. Maximum damage will be balanced around them so there is a risk that baseline damage is reduced with this in mind making them (at least feel) mandatory. They’re also pretty bland most of the time and don’t alter your playstyle.

My major issue with this specific suggestion is that it basically means a 12% damage boost in most game scenarios aside from PvP and roaming which you don’t have to make an effort for. That’s bad. I’d rather see less traits like this in the future. And if there are any, it should be a choice which comes with a trade off – meaning a Major – and not a Minor.

Second, the current state of Impact Savant: I really really don’t like it. The additional stun duration is so neglectable. Engineers don’t have too many stuns to begin with. The defensive bonus is even worse when not specifically enhancing it with runes (or food). Protection Injection will probably be way more beneficial in most scenarios which is rather upsetting. The worst part of this skill: There are several Major traits which encourage a playstyle which make it rather useless. Mass Monumentum and Perfectly Weighted and the resulting Stability.

I’d rather see something completely different here which is more fun. Having the amount of Stability in mind Scrappers can get it probably got to be more offensive than defensive. When considering your suggestion for example: ‘Apply 2s of Slow (or Cripple) per active Gyro when stunning, knocking, pulling […] your foe.’ This would also tie in with Expert Examination.

Yeah I don’t like Impact Savant in its current form either, but I tried to not re-invent the wheel when putting a carrot in front of people who won’t use Function Gyro to revive and stomp a ton, who’d prefer to trade that for sustained value. It doesn’t have to be pure damage, but it should be universally appealing, IE: not just Gyro users. It could be anything that fills that description, not just damage boosts.

I like your suggestion, people would still think Function Gyro was bad for PvE though

Silinsar.6298:

Concerns / questions:
- 2 new hidden CDs instead of one. Might need an additional UI element to manage gyros.
- Will gyros come back if not killed after finishing/res? If yes, one might want to call them back even before they do because of incoming damage. This would require another key or overload our already multi-purpose interact key even more (with turret pickup and function gyro command it already has 2 more functions than on other professions and even with just turrets there’re conflicts).
- Will they be able to be damaged while circling around you?
- While it’s interesting to manage resources, in a continuing fight with these numbers where you want to res/stomp often, your “gyro-rate” will be 60s instead of 30s while possibly loosing all passive benefit from the traits. As a tanky (primary) melee spec I’d prefer a mechanic that rewards being and staying in the midst of things.

The Function Gyro spawn timer would be visually displayed right on the screen, ideally with a small spark animation as the Gyro appears overhead.

Not able to be damaged when they’re connected to you, essentially, it’d only be you eating the damage.

The production rate of Gyros can be tweaked, when Engaging in a fight fully stocked, you can use 4 Function Gyros on a 20s cooldown before having to wait a minute before hitting the 60 second cooldowns. There’s no link between being melee, this is an intended drawback so that you don’t spam your Function Gyros at every opportunity, or you may, but then have a recuperation phase. The production rate can be lowered from 60s, just number tweaking things.

Nieguen.6235:

First of all, I like the concept to give a better graphical and mechanical identity to the scrapper for the same reasons you presented.

But, basically these little guys will have to deal with damages during the fight, which means we will have the same problem discussed in every posts: gyro = turrets 2.0, and when we see how any auto attack can usually damages 3 targets and how the turrets can be easily destroyed…. I am not sure what is the point having gyros moving around during the fight as you will be in close/melee range.

As always we have the same problem: the health pool of the gyros and turrets. And we will only have an idea of their resistance against damages (which imo will be non existent) when we will test them next BWE.

Maybe the main point of the use of the gyros would be to change the cd duration.

Thanks for the feedback, maybe it wasn’t clear but the suggested re-worked Function Gyros before they are invoked are non-combative, meaning untargetable and dormant, they’d only materialize at the target when used.

And yes I think spawning entities with health pools is a path that should never be gone down again, due to the extreme limitations it puts on developers to balance and make them usable across game modes, but yet here we are. You think we could make that irrelevant if we made the Gyros balanced around being low cooldown, but powerful cannon fodder?

It’s just so surreal that we actually have a second set of Turret-status utilities.

Maybe they can be reworked from persistent and autonomous little plebs into gyro themed attacks or abilities.

Vajra.3914:

insanemaniac.2456:

Vajra.3914:

More than damage buff, I hoped every tick of flametrower would add 1 sec burning, just like the flametrower in Southsun Cove…

10 hits.. 2.5 secs.. you want to be able to maintain an 8 stack of burn by autoing?

ok lol

btw thats a 3400ish burn tick and its practically impossible to cleanse.

Welp, ofc it’s impossible to cleanse, 1 sec burning is going away too fast, and we’re forgetting that u are locked doing that Auto for 2.5 sec to get full advantage, and u are still getting rekt by reta (and probably will die if u hit 2 or more target with it), so I guess it balance off the total damage.

Haha. Going from perma sub-1 stack of burn to perma 8 stack is a bit much of a buff.

I think if Hit 1, 5, and 10 applied one burn for 2s it’d have a nice feel to it, and be quite good as a filler.

Novuake.2691:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Novuake.2691:

Isnt Automated Defence bomb still bugged? only applying one blind instead of smoke field?

Yes it is still bugged and I would like to see this fixed.

Definitely!

Auto-Defense Bomb Dispenser is doing 3 blinds, but it’s not a Smoke Field.

Currently it doesn’t say in the Tooltip that it is a Combo Field: Smoke, so I’m not really sure if it’s intended to or not.

RunicAura.9860:

Necromancer gets reaper form and new skills to go with it
Warrior gets beserker and new burst to go with it
Mesemer alacrity and a new shatter that is cool
Elementalist cool new overloads for their elements
Guardian New virtues a chain, leap and shield effects
Revenant gets to increase outgoing and incoming boons by 50% himself and others around him
Thief gets new dodge bar and effects
Rangers get to change into a celestial being for some time

What do the engineers get the scrapper?
Pointed at by the others and laughed at

Indeed, going from Engineer to Scrapper will have extremely little learning curve, basically none, if you don’t take hammer.

Function Gyro needs to be pillar for the identity of the Scrapper, what really sets apart a Scrapper from an Engineer. This is the class mechanic we get from the first minor trait, a parallel to Reaper’s Shroud, Celestial Avatar, Overload Attunement, Continuum Split, Dragonhunter Virtues, Legendary Dragon Stance, Primal Bursts.

Other than the Engineer, only the Thief’s third dodge bar doesn’t really alter the playstyle significantly.

Currently, the Scrapper defining minor trait reads this: “You gain access to the Function Gyro, which can finish a foe or revive an ally at range.”

What I would suggest is:

Function Gyro: Gain access to up to 3 non-combative Function Gyros which encircle you. Periodically construct a function Gyro every 60 seconds. Command a Function Gyro to join the fray to finish foes or revive allies. (20s CD).

Reworking Impact Savant, the last Minor, as well:

Impact Savant: Deal 4% more damage, and reduce the duration of incoming stuns by 10% for each encircling Function Gyro.

What this accomplishes is creates a system of Gyro management that Scrappers in all game modes would be able to manipulate to their benefit. PvE Scrappers would enjoy great uptime of a 4-12% damage modifier. Non PvE Scrappers would get help from a Function Gyro every 20 seconds if they managed production well, and didn’t deplete resources.

Best of all, it’d be a constantly present theme that adds a bit more substance to the Scrapper’s core class mechanic, keeping it closer to the same feel players had when watching the Scrapper in the HoT trailer.

Frenk.5917:

Chaith.8256:

Frenk.5917:

Chaith.8256:

It’s strange that you’re questioning why you bothered to do that unsolicited in depth analysis you did. If you want to do it, do it for the sake of it. Don’t do it for the chance they’ll copy paste your changes onto live.

lol

That’s the point. I’m not doing for the sake of it. I’m doing for them to recognize there are troubles with those traits.

Arenanet doesn’t make their patch notes on what a guy on the forums says. Even if he’s liek, super important and sao smart. It’s triage, the biggest improvement of gameplay experiences for the most amount of players. That’s why D/D Ele pressure gets nerfed, PU gets nerfed, and every underpowered thing Engi has doesn’t suddenly become good.

It’s like you haven’t noticed the piles of underpowered things every class has had since launch!

Yes, I get your point, but it’s not like that since every class has underpowered traits then we should keep having underpowered traits. Do you get my point?

Also, I’ve heard our top SPVP Engi, a certain 5Gauge (you probably know him!) is a nice guy, so Anet should probably start to listen to sao smart and super important people. Afterall, what phanta suggested for D/D eles (burning application nerfs) was introduced, and it’s a good start.

The D/D Ele changes were quite their own, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone quite suggest removing the ‘gain might on Cantrip’ component, or changing the Ring of Fire pressure near fully away from traversing the ring, and instead on to the initial application.

ArenaNet has had many discussions with PvP players over the years, and I would never be angry or take it personally if my feedback wasn’t precisely acted on. Also I don’t have any delusions that the Abjured boyz’ suggestions should be catered to at a much higher priority, cause everyone has biases, especially in what areas of balance they selectively focus on, even if their suggestions in those areas are fair.

Terrahero.9358:

Chaith.8256:

Terrahero.9358:

I would not play Scrapper. It offers far to little, it hardly has an identity that sets it apart from an Engineer. I’d essentially be playing the same thing. The (underwhelming) function gyro does not distinguish it in a way that other profession mechanics do for the other elite specializations.

The Function Gyro is absolutely not underwhelming from a PvP perspective.

Do you know how kitten hard it is to win a fight that you’re outnumbered in? Even if you get a down, you can’t stomp if they have an extra person reviving.

Or you just barely can’t stop someone from getting revived because nobody was able to stomp, due to everyone being forced to cleave.

The Engineer can cleave and stomp at the same time, the Engineer can double revive, both with stability

Is this sinking in

The vast majority of people play pve and wvw, where this does far less. Does THAT sink in?

And stomping is far from guarenteed. 3 professions can avoid a stomp from someone with stability, and have enough damage that they can likely kill the gyro before it finishes the second attempt all on their own. Does THAT sink in?

You’d still have to babysit the Gyro to see if it actually does it’s job. And when it fails you are now to far away to do it yourself in time, and the gyro is on a whopping 30sec cd.

Who’s gonna do however many thousand damage to a Gyro when you should be reviving your ally? You have 3 seconds until the Gyro stomps. Your whole dissatisfaction with the Gyro is that its stability stomp will fail every time.

Do you know the HP pool, cause I don’t. Might be a bit premature to assume it’ll never do its job as intended.

The much better argument against the Function Gyro and Decisive Renown (boons on revive or finish) is that it really only is good in PvP.

And that is unfortunate.

Few setups in this game are insanely efficient in multiple game modes though.

Frenk.5917:

Chaith.8256:

It’s strange that you’re questioning why you bothered to do that unsolicited in depth analysis you did. If you want to do it, do it for the sake of it. Don’t do it for the chance they’ll copy paste your changes onto live.

lol

That’s the point. I’m not doing for the sake of it. I’m doing for them to recognize there are troubles with those traits.

Arenanet doesn’t make their patch notes on what a guy on the forums says. Even if he’s liek, super important and sao smart. It’s triage, the biggest improvement of gameplay experiences for the most amount of players. That’s why D/D Ele pressure gets nerfed, PU gets nerfed, and every underpowered thing Engi has doesn’t suddenly become good.

It’s like you haven’t noticed the piles of underpowered things every class has had since launch!

Terrahero.9358:

I would not play Scrapper. It offers far to little, it hardly has an identity that sets it apart from an Engineer. I’d essentially be playing the same thing. The (underwhelming) function gyro does not distinguish it in a way that other profession mechanics do for the other elite specializations.

The Function Gyro is absolutely not underwhelming from a PvP perspective.

Do you know how kitten hard it is to win a fight that you’re outnumbered in? Even if you get a down, you can’t stomp if they have an extra person reviving.

Or you just barely can’t stop someone from getting revived because nobody was able to stomp, due to everyone being forced to cleave.

The Engineer can cleave and stomp at the same time, the Engineer can double revive, both with stability

Is this sinking in