Guild Wars 2

Chrispy.5641:

infantrydiv.1620, Thank you for proving my point with the topic you created here ::: Ranger Shortbow – Suggestions

That’s what I’m talking about, and it is part of the reason why the Ranger forums are in such a mess. All those weapon suggestions that were just had to have a new topic created to justify their existence, could just as easily fit into this thread, which is titled The Weapon Suggestion Thread!

I’m not trying to beat on you Infantry, I’m just saying that it would be almost infinitely better if all of our suggestions for weapons were in a single weapon suggestion thread. It makes it easier to read when everything is in one place, and it prevents smaller threads from fading from view within a day or two.

Weapon idea thread :::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/The-Weapon-Suggestion-Thread/first#post3474841

infantrydiv.1620, Thank you for proving my point with the topic you created here ::: Ranger Shortbow – Suggestions

That’s what I’m talking about, and it is part of the reason why the Ranger forums are in such a mess. All those weapon suggestions that were just had to have a new topic created to justify their existence, could just as easily fit into this thread, which is titled The Weapon Suggestion Thread!

I’m not trying to beat on you Infantry, I’m just saying that it would be almost infinitely better if all of our suggestions for weapons were in a single weapon suggestion thread. It makes it easier to read, and it prevents smaller threads from fading from view within a day or two.

So Wait! I’m not understanding why this is a bad thing?

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

Chrispy.5641:

Also, I highly suggest that you guys make a post in one of the CDI threads in General Discussion at some point in time to voice your opinions on what you want changed (the current topic is Horizontal Discussion, not a thread for changes though, but you should keep an eye out for future threads).

Thanks for your input Chrispy, I’ve already made a post in the current CDI thread, I hope I get some response.

That post was what lead me to this thread!

Its actually more than likely that instead of someone replying to this thread specifically, they will create their own thread to suggest on tiny change or other to a specific aspect of the Ranger. So, instead of getting everything in one place for the devs to read through, it becomes a jumbled mess scattered throughout the forums. (I mean, there has to be atleast one other thread in the last week, maybe more in the Ranger Forums trying to do the same thing as you, or something similar. I’ve tried in the past too, but also failed after about a week, and failed multiple times, and that was after I staggered a dozen posts apart so that way the thread stays near the top of the forum).

The only way we’re going to get everything in (this or another) one Thread and better organized is if we get some red up in here, or the developers create a CDI-Ranger thread(a CDI specific to each profession is Preferred).

My Ranger:::
(I think it works quite well)

I don’t feel that current Ranger weapons are in a very bad spot right now, because while some are bad for PvE, they are at the same time amazing for uses in WvW or vice versa. so I’m not going to make any suggestions to our current weapons. However, I will copy from several of my past posts to make suggestions for Future weapons. I’ll only do one at a time though, instead of throwing a 20 post wall of text at you guys.

First off, I did think of a Mainhand Torch around 5-6 months ago… Here is the Direct Quote :::

Mainhand Torch
Why?

• Ranger’s need another Mainhand weapon, but it shouldn’t be a retread of other Class weapons, as that would only serve to cheapen the class.
• Lots of Condition Potential, which is sort of the Ranger’s thing. (…sort of…)

What makes it unique?

• Mostly Skill #3, which puts out your torch (two if dual wielded), and it changes all of your attacks for a short time into causing Blindness instead of Burning.
• Skill #1 applies specific effects only if your target is moving, which makes it great for chasing down enemies that like to run away, but it also doesn’t have any wierd rooting that sometimes doesn’t work reliably, (but this also means that those effects don’t apply to stationary enemies)

Skills
Skill #1 : Chain Attack : Autoattack (Mainhand Torch Skill)

• Throw (1)
  Throw your torch at foe. Cripples if target is moving.
  -> Swing (2)
  Swing your torch at foe. Applies Torment if target is moving.
  -> Stab (3)
  Stab foe with your torch. Applies Burning.
  -> Smother (3)
  Stab foe with your torch, Blinding them.

Skill #2 : (Mainhand Torch Skill)

• Salamander’s Ring
  Evade in a circle around your foe, applying vulnerability. Also applies Burning to foes that enter this area.
  Salamander’s Breath
  Evade in a circle around your foe, applying vulnerability. Also applies Blindness to foes that enter this area.

Skill #3 : (Mainhand Torch Skill)

• Extinguish
  Douse your Torch’s flames. All Torch attacks that cause burning cause Blindness instead. (Note: New skills are in Italic text that are changed)
  -> Ignite (2)
  Re-Ignite your Torches early, surprising surrounding foes and applying Vulnerability. Your Pet’s next attack also applies Vulnerability.

Skill #4 : (Offhand Torch Skill)

• Throw Torch
  Throw your Torch and Burn your foe.
  Throw Torch
  Throw your Torch and Blind your foe.

Skill #5 : (Offhand Torch Skill)

• Bonfire
  Set a fire around you, Burning foes. (combo field : Fire)
  Ashcloud
  Kick up a cloud of ash and dust, Blinding foes. (combo field : Smoke)

Other Ideas, Thoughts, and Considerations

• I was thinking that Skill 3, could give you and your pet stealth instead of changing all your skills to causing blindness, but it wouldn’t make much sense in broad daylight, but this is a game, and it would be kind of interesting to think of that possiblility as well…(If we go with this, then the Ignite skill in the sequence would still be there, its just used to cut off your stealth early, and apply extra conditon and damage!)

Also, I highly suggest that you guys make a post in one of the CDI threads in General Discussion at some point in time to voice your opinions on what you want changed (the current topic is Horizontal Discussion, not a thread for changes though, but you should keep an eye out for future threads). I did make a post in the most recent thread talking about getting Alternate weapon skills after completing a task, and you would be able to switch your Axe skills for a melee option (without forcing other players to do the same). (That three part post starts Here::: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/3446995)
(also, those posts use shortbow as an example, not the axe, but you could see how it would work with all weapons…)

Bezagron.7352:

….snip…..

• Chrispy’s sub-class idea look at using the existing trait lines by unlocking sub-classes by investing 30 points into one line. Blaeys expands Chrispy’s idea with and expansion beyond Grandmaster 30 trait points but up to 40 trait points in a line but keeping the same 70 trait points we now have. Chrispy rolls with Blaeys’s idea but looks at locking the 4th major trait as sub-class only and that you can’t use the other major traits. Chrispy complete sub-class idea Part 1, Part 2.

….snip….

you are performing miracles spending all your time writing all these summaries. Keep up the good work.

also, That subclass idea has a tiny hint of vertical progression in it, and I thought it was too easy to just invest some trait points and unlock a subclass automatically. So I completely redid the idea to make it seem more like an epic multi-afternoon journey instead of a simple unlock. So, if you’re just jumping into the thread now, make sure to read that one too ::: Part 1,Part 2, and Part 3

Ghotistyx.6942:

There’s been a few different options of what sub-classes are. Part of the problem is that we’ve all defined sub-classes to be something else (or, something unique to our explaination), whereas the opposition to “sub-classes” have each used a different (unique to their explaination) definition.

For example, my proposal for sub-classes really is just an expansion of the trait and skill system we have, but instead of saying “I’m a Meditation Guardian” or “A Glamor Mesmer”, you could say “I’m a Druid Ranger” or a “Thug Thief”. The “Druid” and “Thug” sub-classes would just be a collection of themed skills and traits. If you didn’t like one portion of the theme, you could swap it out for a different trait. Maybe Druid is too nature-y for you, so you could swap out some traits for say, Bow traits and be a nature-y marksman (i.e., your own creation of sub-class based on the tools you have). Hopefully something like this would be able to capture that Primary/Secondary Profession feel that GW1 had.

Now again, there’re other proposals for sub-classes that are more akin to say, Final Fantasy Tactics or others. You would choose a branching path from your main profession that greatly altered mechanics, or more fully filled a role that your main profession did not have. I don’t know if this is the best route, but this proposal along with mine (and some others) are all called sub-classes, despite they’re being fairly different ideas. We just need to specify what exactly we mean by sub-class when we refute ideas. The same goes for any idea.

(I’m not so much concerned with people liking my idea, but rather people specifying what they’re against in the discussions. “Sub-classes” is far too broad a term to say you’re against, unless you specify that really anything remotely related to a sub-class idea is abhorrent in your eyes. People in the CDI just need a good scope of what you oppose so they can make a proper counter argument. (arguments are debating/philosophical arguments, “you” refers to everyone in the CDI, not a specific person/group))

Some people have been very specific saying that they don’t want to be forced into any builds because of new skills or subclasses….and really thats the sum of all the arguments against it that I’ve heard so far.

Since that, many ideas have come out that fully removed that aspect and are just suggesting to add several themed skills in one complete package and call it a subclass based on the flavor of the skills and traits (not word for word, but your idea is an example of that), so even that concern is no longer relevant. I’m not seeing any new resistance or concerns to the ideas so far…

….Well, except that, adding any new skills of any sort to the game of any kind to even slightly try to increase build diversity, will naturally make some professions better at killing plains wurms faster than others. So I guess that no matter what, Nike’s concern is a very real one.

draxynnic.3719:

(On this, I think I’m in consensus with Chrispy and Tobias – I typed this up before reaching their posts on the last page)

I am totally in agreement with everything you said in your post, and it is awesome that everyone is starting to come to same general conclusion when it comes to subclasses.

Sarrs.4831:

So from what you’ve described, Chrispy;

- New skills
- New traits
- New weapons
- Location-specific skill unlocks
- Minidungeons with events in them
- Loredumps
- Fancy titles.

I’m not seeing how this subclass system is more than the sum of its parts, myself, and it seems to ultimately culminate in something similar to the badge next to your name when you get 100% world completion. If new skill releases are tied into the Living World content, then that would be fantastic and cool and excellent because when skills are given grounding in the world, they become that much cooler. I think, though, that a formal system like subclassing would be an unnecessary restriction, and either a system that is quickly neglected or a system that adversely affects the story to fit into it.

That’s exactly what I was thinking of it as though…., was as a way to tie everything together in one neat package. Instead of just giving us one skill here, and one skill there, We could get an entire package that has the flavor of being a subclass (but without the traditional MMO restrictions of a subclass), and have some story and Lore to tie into it. There are still some problems with it though, I’ll give it that.

zamalek.2154:

Chrispy.5641:

Even that would come with downsides though because people in Dungeons and High End PvE content wouldn’t want to invite you unless you fully unlocked all the subclasses so they know you have all the bonuses.

This is ideation, ideas with downsides are still important because they could lead to other ideas – which is why I am throwing whatever comes to mind on the thread even if I am not entirely sure that it’s a good idea (exactly how your idea gave me an idea, which in turn may give someone else an idea and so forth). The likelyhood of anything one of us suggest actually being put into the game word-for-word is remote; what we are doing here is giving Colin and his team food for thought.

I understand that, and I do have a habit of pointing out negatives in just about everything, but, it is still good to think of the negatives. Its even better to think of ways to fix those negatives!

zamalek.2154:

Chrispy.5641:

• 1 New Weapon
• 3 New Skills (Utility, Healing, Elite, etc.)
• 2 New Traits
• 1 forced trait and 1 replacement for it
• 1 Addition to Class Mechanic (if not tied to weapons)
• No Level 80 requirement, forced Specialization, pigeonholing, shoehorning, or anything else.

I really like your idea, I have tweaked it a bit (bolded ones). Your sniper archetype got me thinking; if I were to switch my Ranger/Ranger to the Ranger/Sniper archetype it makes sense that I would always have Eagle Eye. So basically the act of switching to Ranger/Sniper would:

1. Remove Eagle Eye from my traits options and place it at the top of the traits window as a permanent/forced trait. Snipers will always have the range/damage bonus.
2. The trait that used to be Eagle Eye would be replaced with something that would make sense to a sniper (e.g. “X: Steady Shot – Attacking from out of combat does 50% more damage”) that the player can choose (if they choose to) in its stead.

The Ranger/Tamer (or whatever) would be forced into Master’s Bond and have some other appropriate trait choice for II instead.

You know, come to think of it, you could have [your] 3 traits forced and have the player unlock their replacements via the other missions. So 10 missions to unlock the archetype and 30 missions to unlock the replacement traits.

One question, how does the Ranger/Ranger archetype remain relevant (on new characters)? Make it work as any other archetype? Except maybe you don’t have to unlock the traits on it?

Edit: More thinking out loud. Maybe have the Ranger/Ranger (or the Warrior/Warrior, Necro/Necro etc.) have forced traits that give a nice stat boost that are otherwise unavailable (they are not ‘stolen’ from the actual traits like the other archetypes). This means that people would still have incentive to play these core archetypes (instead of them becoming dead content).

I was thinking to not have any Forced Traits. The Sub-Class (Sniper or Druid in this case), is just the Title you recieve after all your Training and hard work to learn those skills/weapons/traits is completed. The Idea of a Sub-Class in this case is not to include Vertical Progression in any way, but to use Sub-Classes as a vehicle of which to unlock other Skills, Traits, Weapons, Pets, Burst Skills, Virtues, etc.

There is no subclass switching with my idea either, Once you unlock a Subclass, you stay that subclass forever, and other Players would come to know that you unlocked all the possible skills/traits and weapons in multiple subclasses just by looking at the symbols next to your name when they click on you. So a Person can not only be a Ranger/Druid (Paw and Leaf in my original idea), but they would be a Ranger/Druid/Sniper (Paw, Leaf, and Crosshair) in my idea.(I typed everything kind of fast, so it might not be very clear in my original post)

The Idea is to eventually become everything that you can in the limits of a profession and raise the level of your profession to its maximum possible potential

And it would be nice to have an automatic perk/bonus once you unlock those subclasses, but I left that out on purpose in an attempt to keep everything as even as possible between those that unlocked the extra skills and weapon, and those that did not. (Trust me, I had to restrain myself, because I do like the idea of a subclass having a vertical bonus of some kind instead of being mostly cosmetic)

BUT!!!! It would be nice if it only worked in PvE (and not WvW) if say for example :::

• Unlock everything in the Druid Subclass, and gain the Druid Title, Your Healing increases by 5% permanently.
• Unlock everything in the Sniper Subclass, and gain the Sniper Title, Permanently increase the range of all your skills by 5%.
• Unlock everything in the Warden Subclass, and gain the Warden Title, you get a Permanent Bonus to Dodging which remove the Immobilize Condition with a cooldown(so you can’t double dodge and escape immobilize twice in a row).
• Unlock everything in the Scout Subclass, and gain the Scout Title, gain a permanent 5% speed boost.

Even that would come with downsides though because people in Dungeons and High End PvE content wouldn’t want to invite you unless you fully unlocked all the subclasses so they know you have all the bonuses. Thats the Downside, and the reason why I didn’t want to include it…

It is a nice thought, but that’s going into the realm of Vertical Progression, which this Thread is not about.

Conclusion
Something like that (its only a very rushed example), with the new content, the 3 skills, weapon, and 3 traits. I would be perfectly okay with getting something like that once a year or two. Because while the most hardcore of us could do it in less than a week. It is for everyone else a longterm journey comparable to the journey you took when you first created your character to go from level 1 to 80.

Edit : There is No subclass switching in this idea, nor are you forced to pick Druid or Sniper. Whith this Idea, not only can you be a Ranger/Druid, You can be a Ranger/Druid/Sniper. Be All three at once. The Sub-Class itself is just a title that you recieve after unlocking everything for that subclass (weapon, skills, traits). In this Way, Subclasses are only a Vehicle in which to unlock new Skills, Weapons, Traits, etc. and Increase Build Diversity all around without forcing people to pick percieved bonuses from one Sub-Class over another.

ColinJohanson.2394:

The event idea is an interesting one, but it doesn’t feel like a “grand journey” so to speak. Do you feel like if we asked you to do 90 different events in a month, and that allowed your ranger to say become a Druid, you’d feel like that was a cool system?

(Note I will be Using the Ranger in all my example as I have been using this whole thread. Colin may have intentionally or not, mentioned the Ranger and Druid, because the GW1 LORE already has an example for how humans became Druids, and many of them had to be Rangers at some point in their lives.. That lore from Gw1 can be expanded and put into this game as a way to tell the story for how Rangers can become Druids.
Also, I am using some examples already shown on this thread and integrating it into mine, but I won’t be mentioning any specifically)

You want a Grand Journey? Well, I think I may have just the thing. While many replies of the last few pages have been skirting around the issue, none of them have really addressed how unlocking new skills or a full on subclass can be a Pilgrimage to Enlightenment!

Yes, that sounds somewhat religious in nature, but that’s what I want to base my example off of. Just like how millions of people make a pilgrimage to Mecca once in their lifetimes, or how people will sit under a tree meditating for decades on a spiritual journey to achieve a greater understanding about themself and the world around them. Players in Guild Wars can also make the pilgrimage to gain a better understanding about the character they play, the choices they made, their profession, and how they fit into the Lore of the world, all the while earning awesome new skills and equipment skins to show off after completing the journey.

Well, that’s alot, so I better start Organizing this, so that way everyone can understand what I mean….

Contents
(1) – What does a Subclass Mean?
(2) – How do they Get there? (The Journey/Pilgrimage)
(3) – What happens when they Get there?
(4) – Later on……

Ronah.2869:

Chrispy.5641:

Ronah.2869:

Chrispy.5641:

Cosmetic and Cosmetic rewards only should be used for the higher end Hardcore players, not things that affect Gameplay in any way, because it automatically makes them more powerful players.

Who talked about more powerful skills? maybe the new skills are purely some new cosmetic animations for the exiting ones. Is that sovereign you would agree with?

For example, the seed turret for silvary is pretty simple now: a flower. How about a new skill that looks like a toxic spore and shoots other type of ammo.
This could be enough for making a player feel different without making it more powerful.

Making my Longbow shoot Killer Bees instead of Wooden Arrows is just a waste of resorces if that is the only effect I get from getting a New Skill, you know, something we haven’t gotten any of for almost two years (minus two very situational healing skills). If Anet spends their time on making New skills with Cosmetic effects only, then it is a complete waste of effort and time, because those resources could be put into making entirely new skills, or at the very least, skills with differing effects on the flow of Combat, and increasing Build diversity in the process. Anet should be spending their time on that first if its anything related to skills, and While I have made a Suggestion that alters the visual effects of skills, it is through an equipment slot, not through new skills. Its also nowhere near the top of my list. That way, all your skills (or a certain set of skills) are affected, instead of just one.

Ok, it seems you know better then me how the game works. How would you re-make the suggestion so it will comply to your expectations. it is easy to point out issues but it is harder to create a solution. I let you this privilege, if you don’t mind.
As a brainstorming discussion, all participants should develop an idea not only one do the thinking and others point out the negative things.

I

Dude, that’s part of the development process, not just in games, but in anything. Its nice to look at how cool an idea will be, and how awesome it would work in the game, but, you kind of have to look at what the possbile negatives would be as well. It would be foolish to ignore and worry later, only to regret that decision halfway through development or after release because the downsides did end up outweighing the positives! We should be voicing our concerns now instead of creating an “I hate Anet!” thread three months later.

Ronah.2869:

Chrispy.5641:

Cosmetic and Cosmetic rewards only should be used for the higher end Hardcore players, not things that affect Gameplay in any way, because it automatically makes them more powerful players.

Who talked about more powerful skills? maybe the new skills are purely some new cosmetic animations for the exiting ones. Is that sovereign you would agree with?

For example, the seed turret for silvary is pretty simple now: a flower. How about a new skill that looks like a toxic spore and shoots other type of ammo.
This could be enough for making a player feel different without making it more powerful.

Making my Longbow shoot Killer Bees instead of Wooden Arrows is just a waste of resorces if that is the only effect I get from getting a New Skill, you know, something we haven’t gotten any of for almost two years (minus two very situational healing skills). If Anet spends their time on making New skills with Cosmetic effects only, then it is a complete waste of effort and time, because those resources could be put into making entirely new skills, or at the very least, skills with differing effects on the flow of Combat, and increasing Build diversity in the process. Anet should be spending their time on that first if its anything related to skills, and While I have made a Suggestion that alters the visual effects of skills, it is through an equipment slot, not through new skills. Its also nowhere near the top of my list. That way, all your skills (or a certain set of skills) are affected, instead of just one.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Chrispy.5641:

And then when a balance patch comes out that makes that skill not worth as much as it is in the meta at that time, but a different skill that you could have unlocked, but didn’t becomes the new best thing? Suddenly that 8/10 becomes the most infuriating statistic in the world to the millions of players that got skill A instead of Skill B

You’re still forcing players to play through content that they don’t want to play through, and not only that, you’re forcing them to Grind Grinding isn’t a bad thing, but when its an un-fun grind that you would have never done under normal circumstances?

Getting players to play more should be one thing. Forcing them to play so they can still be effective is a different thing entirely, and should stay out of this game.

Cosmetic and Cosmetic rewards only should be used for the higher end Hardcore players, not things that affect Gameplay in any way, because it automatically makes them more powerful players.

Alrighty lets keep the idea but remove the skills as the reward and have some cosmetic items instead.
I liked his idea, tying the skills in was an afterthought because it seems to be what some people want its not a personal interest for me.

I will say I’ve played games (Mabinogi) where getting the “elite” skills for your class was one hell of a journey (Ice Spear, Fireball, Thunder, Final Hit, Shock) Which involved a mixture of a treasure hunt, soloing certain dungeons and hunting down specific bosses.

I support that idea 100% as long as the skills are left out.

Also, Skins and new Looks is the way for Players in GW2 to tell other Players “HEY, I’M BETTER THAN YOU”, even though the character’s power and skills are all inside of the same limits. Using skills for that purpose has worked in past games and worked very well, but, imo its not a good fit for Guild Wars 2.

DarkWasp.7291:

• Black Lion Delivery Dolyak – Don’t have enough time to run from your house to the trading post representative in the center of the neighborhood? Select “Deliver Black Lion Goods” in your inventory options while you’re out exploring to have a dolyak make the trip for you. The delivery price is 10 silver. You may also opt to use dolyak delivery in your auto-crafting UI should your buy order for materials be fulfilled while you are away or offline.

I like this as a general Quality of Life Improvement. And a higher cost like 10 Silver ensures that Players aren’t abusing the system, and also gives those poor Dolyaks some rest!

everything else I don’t really have an opinion on, but they are all good ideas.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Chrispy.5641:

But Even with your solution Conski, it still locks players out of gaining access to all skills because, they don’t want to do Jumping Puzzles or WvW or PvP or Killing Mega Bosses or Exploration stuff. What your solution, and the original idea will do is create an Elitist climate throughout all areas of the game.

I’m not actually against, I’ll go learn to be better at PvP so I can kill more players so I can unlock that skill. But, I am in that demographic of players that would consider themselves Hardcore Players.

BUT, for the Casual Players, many of which can’t find the time investment to even complete one item on that list given a year of time, It locks them out of quite a bit of content related to using more skills. If those skills have the slightest whiff of being more powerful than regular skills, then you will see the forums light up on fire with angry players. You will see a lot of casual players leave the game, and Guild Wars 2 will generally be much worse off for it.

Sure, it would increase build diversity,…for the 5% of players that can actually finish all of those tasks. But for the other 95% that might finish one or two, but never all of them, they are going to feel left out.

That was why I suggested not making the unlock specific, if there is a skill for your build that you need you can do the easy challenge and get the skill, if you just want all of them for completions sake you’d have to work for it. 1,2,3,9,10 are all completable with low skill and time investment with only 6 and 7 having the potential of actually locking someone out due to skill. 8/10 should be sufficient I feel.

I know the whole doing what you like to get what you want thing was a draw but I feel there should be a limit, you can get plenty of stuff that way already. As for the time it takes, well I feel that should be part of the progression we’re trying to get more gameplay out of the content so giving you a goal to play towards fits that.

And then when a balance patch comes out that makes that skill not worth as much as it is in the meta at that time, but a different skill that you could have unlocked, but didn’t becomes the new best thing? Suddenly that 8/10 becomes the most infuriating statistic in the world to the millions of players that got skill A instead of Skill B

You’re still forcing players to play through content that they don’t want to play through, and not only that, you’re forcing them to Grind Grinding isn’t a bad thing, but when its an un-fun grind that you would have never done under normal circumstances?

Getting players to play more should be one thing. Forcing them to play so they can still be effective is a different thing entirely, and should stay out of this game.

Cosmetic and Cosmetic rewards only should be used for the higher end Hardcore players, not things that affect Gameplay in any way, because it automatically makes them more powerful players.

I read the Transcript to that Video earlier today. Definitely provides some interesting insight for how all this works. You guys should spend the hour it takes to listen to the video, or read the interview by following the link above the video. Its all interesting stuff!

Ronah.2869:

Chrispy.5641:

Immanuel.1560’s Idea ::: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/3462132

Ronah.2869:

+1 Conski Deshan for this
you could make it that each of the mini-titles unlock one skill for your account
Plus it adds a unique reward for genuine skill that can’t be bought

But Even with your solution Conski, it still locks players out of gaining access to all skills because, they don’t want to do Jumping Puzzles or WvW or PvP or Killing Mega Bosses or Exploration stuff. What your solution, and the original idea will do is create an Elitist climate throughout all areas of the game.

I’m not actually against, I’ll go learn to be better at PvP so I can kill more players so I can unlock that skill. But, I am in that demographic of players that would consider themselves Hardcore Players.

BUT, for the Casual Players, many of which can’t find the time investment to even complete one item on that list given a year of time, It locks them out of quite a bit of content related to using more skills. If those skills have the slightest whiff of being more powerful than regular skills, then you will see the forums light up on fire with angry players. You will see alot of casual players leave the game, and Guild Wars 2 will generally be much worse off for it.

Sure, it would increase build diversity,…for the 5% of players that can actually finish all of those tasks. But for the other 95% that might finish one or two, but never all of them, they are going to feel left out.

I saw the forums light up in fire because of the need to go in WvW in order to get Map completion so… nothing new in this field

This system is a long term goal for horizontal progression, if you feel forced to do it, it means you are a compeltionist which takes out the part of being forced to do it. Compeltionists are only in one way: hard core gamers.
So, the casuals will do what they can while the completitionists will do everything.
As simple as that

- Players want challenge…. this is a long term challenge
- Players want things to make them different hen others…. this makes them different then others because they get skills that can’t be simply bought with skill points earned from champ loot boxes
- Elitists don’t want all the noobs to get it – this system allows this (expl: if you are not good at JPs you will not be a GWAMM)
- The casuals want to have at least the hope they can do it…. this system give them that hope.

I haven’t done the Jumping Puzzle title in SAB but I see people with that Mastery in Applied Jumping title. Do you think I mind? no, becasue i am not good at those.
I see people wearing the back pack skin from TA aetherbalde path.. Do you think I mind? No because I don’t like non solo-able instanced content

To sum it up, your is a personal point of view and it may be shared by others, but the meaning of challenge is to do things you are not normally good at and try to develop yourself

If you bought GW2 just to play WvW, that was your choice. Instead of selling you the WvW part separately like GW1 would have done, they sold you 3 games in one: PvE PvP, WvW. What part of it you like to do it is simply a personal choice not and enforcement
To get GWAMM in GW1 you needed to max titles resulting from PvP and PvE as well including dungeons and HM vanquishing. One for the hardest ones was The cartographer title which could not be done without TexMod. To know about TexMod you needed to be more then just a simple casual player.

Wow, GWAMM was COSMETIC, there were no skills to be learned. Why are you not undrstanding that?

Skills, which can be horizontal progression, also have a hint of Vertical progression in them because a single Skill can make or break a build. And I find it hard to believe that you are completely okay with letting a player that is more hardcore than you have access to a skill that makes his build better, which gives him the ability to kill you more than you can kill him in WvW. Locking players out of a skill because of a multi-year longterm goal is the wrong way to do it!

I don’t mind the cosmetic part of this idea, but the Skills is a big, giant NO GO to me.

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

WRay.2391:

After ascended introduction you have stats increase. This forces you to get it ASAP to have the same benefits in stats as exotics granted previously. This prevents you from doing other content (in most cases it’s psychological desire, but it doesn’t really matter. With one patch ANET made you a second class citizen considering initial game setup and manifesto). Or you can admit that manifesto failed and this game is the same as the others MMOs on the market now. In this case I’ll switch to another game as soon as will find a good one.

Forces? Why? What can’t you do in the game without ascended stats? Is there new content that’s ascended only that I didn’t hear about?

Eh… no. You’re not forced into getting ascended. Maybe you think you are as a relic of past games where numbers were far more significant, but no, it’s ridiculous to claim that you’re being “forced” into ascended gear. If you want it, go for it. If not, nothing changes.

Forces. Sheesh.

Emphasized the initial post to aide with reading comprehension.

Emphasizing a falsehood doesn’t make it magically true.

And calling something a falsehood because you don’t agree with it, doesn’t automatically make it a falsehood.

Even though players don’t need Ascended gear (hell, they don’t need Exotic for most content in the game), They feel like they do need it because it makes that that tiny bit more powerful than they did before. So, until those players spend the large amount of time to get the ascended gear, they will feel like second class citizens, regardless of reality saying they need it or not.

Have you seen the masses clamoring for Iphones for the last Decade? The Iphone is no better than anything Samsung comes up with, but people still feel like they are inferior phones. Its the same thing here.

Immanuel.1560’s Idea ::: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/3462132

Ronah.2869:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Chrispy.5641:

How would you address the fact that many people do not play PvP in any way, and thus are locked out of skills under the system you proposed?

Edit : And there are Some people who only play WvW, should they be forced to play PvE content and do Jumping puzzles in order to unlock new skills as well?

I like this idea, if people have that major a concern about not being able to unlock the new skills you could make it that each of the mini-titles unlock one skill for your account (non specifically). So that you’d only have to do it all if you want everything. Having the Grandmaster title awarding a unique skill and maybe other rewards too would be nice.

Wvw,Pve and Pvp are each an aspect of gameplay mastery should require you to display skills in all three areas. Plus it adds a unique reward for genuine skill that can’t be bought.

I’d consider tweaking the group events one, I believe I’ve just barely completed over 3000 events total group events accounting for maybe 500 of them in the year and a half the games been out., so 300 might be a better target.

As for fractals, as the level will go up it wouldn’t be a concrete goal so I’d specify a specific level, say 40? or the current max of 50?

+1 Conski Deshan for this
you could make it that each of the mini-titles unlock one skill for your account
Plus it adds a unique reward for genuine skill that can’t be bought

But Even with your solution Conski, it still locks players out of gaining access to all skills because, they don’t want to do Jumping Puzzles or WvW or PvP or Killing Mega Bosses or Exploration stuff. What your solution, and the original idea will do is create an Elitist climate throughout all areas of the game.

I’m not actually against, I’ll go learn to be better at PvP so I can kill more players so I can unlock that skill. But, I am in that demographic of players that would consider themselves Hardcore Players.

BUT, for the Casual Players, many of which can’t find the time investment to even complete one item on that list given a year of time, It locks them out of quite a bit of content related to using more skills. If those skills have the slightest whiff of being more powerful than regular skills, then you will see the forums light up on fire with angry players. You will see alot of casual players leave the game, and Guild Wars 2 will generally be much worse off for it.

Sure, it would increase build diversity,…for the 5% of players that can actually finish all of those tasks. But for the other 95% that might finish one or two, but never all of them, they are going to feel left out.

Also :::: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Introducing-the-Chronomancer/2589129

thats the most fully realized suggestion for a new profession of any kind currently on th forums

I don’t know. College doesn’t start back up for me for two more days, so I am bored enough to try to see how it could. (and I’ll also add to the list as far as not having AI clutter on the screen. Necromancers, Mesmers, and Rangers are bad enough with that already!)

Majic.4801:

Manifest Destiny

The Manifesto is alive and well and lives on in our hearts — and, I sincerely believe, in the hearts of most ArenaNet employees. I don’t think anyone in the video was lying, nor have I ever seen any evidence that anyone at ArenaNet even remotely resembles the “monsters from the id” too many players accuse them of being.

Like any creed, opinions on how the Manifesto should be interpreted, how it should be applied, how strictly it should be applied or when it should not be applied will vary, and disagreement naturally ensues. That is just as true within ArenaNet as it is in these forums, so any pretense of a One True Interpretation of the Manifesto is no more credible than any other claims of inspired revelation.

As eloquent as the Manifesto may be, it’s not perfect and never was. It’s probably not possible to actually publish a game which would conform to the Manifesto perfectly, and even if that somehow happened, players would nonetheless argue over whether it actually did, because opinions inevitably vary.

Rather, I think it is best to consider the Manifesto a statement of principles and ideals to draw upon and work toward, recognize that not everyone will agree on the best way to do that, and endeavor as a community to help shape the extraordinary vision ArenaNet has laid out for us.

Granted, that’s not always easy, we naturally tend to get emotional about things we care about, and I could certainly stand to better practice what I preach, myself.

But as long as we keep our eyes on the prize, (politely) hold ArenaNet to that vision and respect the fact that our fellow players can disagree (without necessarily being wrong), we won’t lose sight of what we care about most.

And that’s a goal worthy of us all.

Its why the Communist Manifesto fails in the real world. Its a great, almost utopian set of guidelines, but in practice, it will never live up to the expectations of the original. (yeah, …. I know that was a bad comparison)

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Chrispy,
lul theurigst hahahahaha.

Theurgy describes the practice of rituals, sometimes seen as magical in nature, performed with the intention of invoking the action or evoking the presence of one or more gods, especially with the goal of uniting with the divine, achieving henosis, and perfecting oneself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theurgist

The fantasy RPG equivelant (in a magic heavy world) is essentially summoners. I wasn’t That far off…

…and now I feel I must make a visit to the Suggestions forum to prove how a random idea like that could work and still be heavy armor…. I accept that imaginary Challenge!!!

Let me pull something out of thin air.

…..Ah! The third Heavy class could be a Theurgist. They use their skill at martial combat and dark arts to forcibly rip life energy from living creatures so they can summon some sort of crazy powerful entity to replace them in combat for a short time.

….okay I tried……

frans.8092:

Chrispy.5641:

frans.8092:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.

Ascended gear is noticeably stronger. A mix of Soldier’s Armor with Berserker trinkets and weapons hits harder then full Berserker exotics (almost 30%!) , yet has more then 2K additional Hit points and 250 more armor (for medium armor). Don’t try to qualify that difference as ‘minuscule’.

ptfff…..If that’s the case, then Valkyrie Ascended armor should hit 50% harder than Full Berserker Exotics….but It doesn’t.

My bad, mixed up the columns, Ascended PVT/Zerker hits 15% harder then Exotic Full Zerker. Ascended Valkyre/Zerker hits 21% over and Acended Zerker 33%.

Alright, that sounds a little better.

Immanuel.1560:

I have seen that people have been talking in here about skills and how to unlock them.

My suggestion to this is to let those skills be rewards from Racial Titles . When character have achieved some specific Racial Title, it will give skills as reward. They are somehow related to the title, or to what requirements you have to do to get the title.

Benjamin made that racial title table, and I modified it bit in here adding more detailed information to connect the title to unlocking skill mechanism:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/41#post3459941

Lets take the requirements from that table and see what kind of skills you could open by achieving these titles.

1. Complete all jumping puzzles with specific race / Racial mini title 1
- Reward from this title are leaping skills, long range skills, and long range evade skills.

2. Use any Racial skills 1000 times (cumulative) with specific race / Racial mini title 2
- Reward from this title are Racial elite skills which gives condition damage to a single foe and support to nearby allies

3. Complete Personal Story with a specific race / Racial mini title 3
- Reward from this title are Racial elite skills which gives DPS and AoE damage to foes

4. Defeat 1000 players being other race than you in PvP / Racial mini title 4
- Reward from this title are single damage skills with high DPS

5. Complete 1000 successfull events in WvW with a specific race / Racial mini title 5
- Reward from this title are skills with single condition damage skills with high DPS

6. Complete all Dungeons with a Specific Race / Racial mini title 6
- Reward from this title are AoE supporting skills and AoE healing skills and Single high DPS skills

7. Obtain max Fractail level with a specific race / Racial mini title 7
- Reward form this title are single target supporting skills and single target healing skills, AoE high DPS and Condition damage Skills

8. Complete 3000 successfull Group Events in PvE with a specific race / Racial mini title 8
- Reward from this title are AoE supporting skills, AoE Healing skills and AoE Condition damage skills.

9. Complete All World Boss Events Successfull 20 times with a specific race / Racial mini title 9
- Reward from this title are Long Range High DPS skills and AoE supporting skills

10. Complete ”Been There Done That” with a specific Race
- Reward from this title are long term Running skills

11. Obtain all racial Master Titles / GRAND TITLE
Reward from this are Elite skill High AoE support, High AoE Condition damage, High AoE DPS and High AoE Healing skills same time.

Of course, this can be included into a vertical progression too, but it brings a different way into the unlocking skills system which would diversify the skill acquisition making it a horizontal progression valid option. Titles are optional.

The Racial Titles as Nike said, they are long term goals due to their nature, so adding skill unlocks to various tiers in a specific title for each title will make it really interesting goal for many players expanding the pool of skills.

How would you address the fact that many people do not play PvP in any way, and thus are locked out of skills under the system you proposed?

Edit : And there are Some people who only play WvW, should they be forced to play PvE content and do Jumping puzzles in order to unlock new skills as well?

While its not related to gear, Condition Duration is also important. If the fight starts to get long and drawn out, this Item is infinitely helpful :::
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Koi_Cake

It pretty much increases your damage potential by 40%

frans.8092:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.

Ascended gear is noticeably stronger. A mix of Soldier’s Armor with Berserker trinkets and weapons hits harder then full Berserker exotics (almost 30%!) , yet has more then 2K additional Hit points and 250 more armor (for medium armor). Don’t try to qualify that difference as ‘minuscule’.

ptfff…..If that’s the case, then Valkyrie Ascended armor should hit 50% harder than Full Berserker Exotics….but It doesn’t.

The Lost Witch.7601:

We could have multiple options?

Multiple options that shouldn’t lock a player out of any single one over another. Having some tied to Guild Bounties doesn’t inherently do that, not many guilds actually bother to ever do bounties (I’m guessing less than 20%), so if you can get skills through Guild Bounties, then those same skills should be obtainable somewhere else.

timmyf.1490:

Orpheal, 90% of your skill unlock ideas sound, to me, like either:

1) Go to Dulfy. Look up process for unlocking skill. Waypoint. Perform action. Repeat X times until complete.

2) Go to Dulfy. Look up thing to kill. Waypoint to nearest location. Kill. If group is required, insert period of time asking guildies to come with.

I played GW1 and there’s a few things that people remember about that game that they might be too find of. Specifically, people are remembering the interesting challenge of capturing ELITE skills and trying to put that process in GW2.

Now, if you are saying that a Signet of Capture mechanic should come back for ELITE SKILLS ONLY, I could get behind that. Sounds fun. Something to do, but it won’t overwhelm me with my 10 toons.

If you are suggesting this mechanic for utility skills, I’ll reiterate my “this is not fun, give us stuff to do with skills, don’t gate the unlocking.”

Except….Wouldn’t that also be a “Go to Dulfy” (to find the path of least resistance) type of thing as well? That’s not very interesting either!

Orpheal.8263:

If i’d think more about it, I’m sure I could come up with like 2-3 more fun methods to unlock new skills. One of them naturally being Sub Class, so progressing and advancign with your character in your characters career to receive new skills that are based on your character advancement or learning new skills also like in FF9, where speciafic new skills/traits are bonded also to the equipment and weapon that you use, until you learned them, also a system thats nice and easy to comprehend.

That could be an interesting idea. Buying a Different Weapon to Learn different skills, and once you learn them, you keep them forever. That just makes everything way more complex though….

VOLKON.1290:

Mireles Lore.5942:

VOLKON.1290:

Astralporing.1957:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

Basically, yes. Gear progression turns into a treadmill when you have to work hard to keep up with it. If you can come back after a lengthy absence, skip few tiers and equip yourself in BiS almost right away after login, it allows you to shortcut the whole “running to stay at the same spot” problem.

Gear progression is a treadmill when you are constantly throwing away your BIS armor because new BIS armor was introduced with new content and your old BIS armor simply isn’t capable of getting the job done now.

I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.

Pretty much this exactly. When you hit 80 you can very easily slip on a whole set of Rares and take on the world quite well, and you have the option if you wish to spend the time and efforts to go for ascended. As long as ascended doesn’t get overshadowed by a “higher” power tier you’ll never have the treadmill. Let Legendary armors come, and let them have the same stats as ascended, other features (switch on the fly stats for example) and take longer to get… that would be wonderful and completely against the treadmill philosophy due to it being a choice instead of a requirement for progression.

I fixed it for you since you don’t even need exotics to do a vast majority of the content in the game….I hope that changes soon…

Behellagh.1468:

Right now it looks like these little bursts of desirable items nearly all at once to deplete players gold reserves so they are forced to buy gems is the current strategy.

This also keeps Inflation at a relatively stable level since many player dump their vast gold reserves every couple of months for something or other. Believe it or not, that actually keeps the prices on Trading Post items down for all of us, and prevents Inflation from getting too bad (even though it was pretty bad the first year of the game’s release…)

timmyf.1490:

As a Mesmer, I’m constantly switching skills based on encounters, but I feel like most classes have very little reason to do so..

As a Ranger in PvE, unless I am Trying Really Freaking Hard to come up with a new unique build that no one else uses (such as messing with Magi gear, Boon Duration, and a trait setup that perma mights your pet and gives it a ridiculous amount of DPS and survivability) I have absolutely no reason to ever switch out of a Zerker build with Signets.

So…., you’re right.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Aveneo.2068:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I also don’t like the idea of more hearts. Anet tries to get rid of them (see: high level zones) because they are just static quests.

To my knowledge they were actually added so that people would be able to go to these known ‘quests’ in order to explore the world and stumble across dynamic events along the way.

Not having them in Orr has nothing to do with wild claims that ANet is trying to ‘get rid of them’ so kindly stop spreading misinformation as this is simply not true.

take a look at this statement:

Lewis: If Elona or Cantha are released, would we expect more vista’s, skill points and hearts or would they be more like Southsun or Bazaar?

Hearts would be the least likely thing we’d add. The renown system we felt did a nice job to guide players through our world at lower and mid levels

Colin: There could be, but hearts would be the least likely thing we’d add. The renown system we felt did a nice job to guide players through our world at lower and mid levels, but we feel at higher levels we really can embrace the events system. I think you’ll see is a larger sense of innovation and growth in what dynamic events can do for a zone. That doesn’t mean vistas and skill points are out the window as it’s highly likely you’ll see those come back with new zones as well.

http://www.guildwars2hub.com/features/interviews/colin-johanson-interview-looking-ahead-part-2

In other words, for the first few weeks after a new Zone gets released, the Wiki and Dulfy will be your source for the “path of least resistance”. Your map will also be about half as useful as it was before.

Morrigan.2809:

People have become focused on carrots so we will always have the people who chase down the carrots in a matter of days and even then complain that the carrot tasted like an apple.

Wait! Carrots can taste like Apples!?!….Coooooool!!!!

also, I agree with just about everything you said.

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Sirendor.1394:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Harper.4173:

VOLKON.1290:

Anyone remember the very first time we got to step foot in Tyria… it was either the first public beta or right before that… the mobs were tough. I never died so many times in the starter zones in any game’s PvE ever, and I loved it! Absolutely loved it. You really had to pay attention, learn the combat, etc in order to survive. I’d love to see that come back… nothing would “fix” the non-broken combat system more than scenarios that require you to use a far greater extent of the combat to survive. Give the mobs more skills, make them tougher, give them abilities that shatter stationary “press 1” zerkers who aren’t paying attention like so many glass butterflies.

Combat is fine. I see combat being quite fine in WvW against thinking targets. We just need more aspects of the game to require you to actually use your skills and do so wisely.

I was there on BWE 1 – and I don’t remember any of this. The mobs were sort of like they are today. I powered through the content like there was no tomorrow.

Metrica Province Fire Elemental.

Utterly LETHAL early on but the longer it went on the more people understood “don’t stand in the red rings” and “DO NOT REVIVE ON THE BRIDGE!” . . . still got hit with a nerf stick at least once.

Some got hit by the nerf stick, some didn’t. Most content was easy to me in betas already. I guess only solution is… to go play a new game whose mechanics I didn’t master yet, since judging by responses here everyone is just fine with how easy and skill-less this game’s combat is. sigh

Well, you have two solutions. Go to another game, as you mention, or get into a WvW guild, run some organized WvW and learn how mistaken you are about the combat system and mechanics. It makes a huge difference going against actual players.

…,not really. Its actually kind of easy in WvW. I can bring down most players without any effort using the longbow’s autoattack, especially with the amount of passive traits that increases your damage that Rangers have access to.

My mesmer raises a curious eyebrow and looks forwards to collecting the loot bags off of your corpse.

Hey now, I said Most Players. If you are a thinking player with skill, as you say, then you aren’t most players. I would actually have to press more keys than 1 in that case.

VOLKON.1290:

Sirendor.1394:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Harper.4173:

VOLKON.1290:

Anyone remember the very first time we got to step foot in Tyria… it was either the first public beta or right before that… the mobs were tough. I never died so many times in the starter zones in any game’s PvE ever, and I loved it! Absolutely loved it. You really had to pay attention, learn the combat, etc in order to survive. I’d love to see that come back… nothing would “fix” the non-broken combat system more than scenarios that require you to use a far greater extent of the combat to survive. Give the mobs more skills, make them tougher, give them abilities that shatter stationary “press 1” zerkers who aren’t paying attention like so many glass butterflies.

Combat is fine. I see combat being quite fine in WvW against thinking targets. We just need more aspects of the game to require you to actually use your skills and do so wisely.

I was there on BWE 1 – and I don’t remember any of this. The mobs were sort of like they are today. I powered through the content like there was no tomorrow.

Metrica Province Fire Elemental.

Utterly LETHAL early on but the longer it went on the more people understood “don’t stand in the red rings” and “DO NOT REVIVE ON THE BRIDGE!” . . . still got hit with a nerf stick at least once.

Some got hit by the nerf stick, some didn’t. Most content was easy to me in betas already. I guess only solution is… to go play a new game whose mechanics I didn’t master yet, since judging by responses here everyone is just fine with how easy and skill-less this game’s combat is. sigh

Well, you have two solutions. Go to another game, as you mention, or get into a WvW guild, run some organized WvW and learn how mistaken you are about the combat system and mechanics. It makes a huge difference going against actual players.

…,not really. Its actually kind of easy in WvW. I can bring down most players without any effort using the longbow’s autoattack, especially with the amount of passive traits that increases your damage that Rangers have access to.

VOLKON.1290:

Aveneo.2068:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I also don’t like the idea of more hearts. Anet tries to get rid of them (see: high level zones) because they are just static quests.

To my knowledge they were actually added so that people would be able to go to these known ‘quests’ in order to explore the world and stumble across dynamic events along the way.

Not having them in Orr has nothing to do with wild claims that ANet is trying to ‘get rid of them’ so kindly stop spreading misinformation as this is simply not true.

The game originally didn’t have hearts from what they said. However people wandered about not knowing they were supposed to join in on events, so hearts were added to help train people to do events. I think we’ve evolved enough from the dark ages of MMOs that we can do without more hearts.

But, it would still be a problem when you are wandering around aimlessly, and you have no idea where you need to go to learn a specific skill, so something still needs to be put in there to announce that an event like that is there.

Hearts were an improvement that helped to bring us out of the Dark ages of MMO’s, because, while they are Static points on the map, They are still starting points that we can go to and do events from there (most events spawn within the distance of a Heart)

Blaeys.3102:

Chrispy.5641:

Blaeys.3102:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Zone.1275:

ColinJohanson.2394:

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I think special dynamic events could be one way. Currently some dynamic events open up special vendors to buy little knick knacks. For example, if in Brisban Wildlands there was a special dynamic event chain where you help the Skritt King in some way and after the events are over you can buy a new skill from him with skill points.

So a question for this, how would we message well to newer players how a system like this would work? One of the challenges of events is simply: they may not be running when you’re in an area. Is it ok to make people stand around waiting for an event to happen so they can get a specific thing from that event? How would they know what to do if the event wasn’t currently active, what form of messaging could help them understand the state of the world – while still being immersive and not requiring them to use a 3rd party app to progress?

One way to do this would be to use the heart/karma system you have in place instead of dynamic events.

This would tie in with your desire to get more people into the open game world (non-instanced).

When a player hits level 80, a series of new hearts open around the game world. As you release new skills, traits and even weapon/armor skins, you add new hearts.

When the player fills the heart, a new vendor appears that “sells” the new skills/traits for skill points and new armor/weapon skins for karma (we need new places to use karma anyway).

You could even tie the hearts, loosely, into current and past living story steps (eg, a heart quest in Diessa related to rebuilding/defending the hatchery that was attacked during Flame and Frost).

I like this idea, except for the level 80 part. If the content is in a lower level zone, then people at or above that level should have access to it with little exception.

Also maybe color the hearts a different color so all players know that that heart is the one that teaches a new skill, because that is probably what they are going to go for first anyways.

That is fair – and agree about not limited to lvl 80.

I think another way to get people to them would be to have the profession trainers in various cities have dialogue options that point them to the hearts associated with specific skills/traits.

Yep, That’s similar to what I said earlier, and it would keep almost everything as far as finding these new skills, entirely in the game instead of a guide on Dulfy (though level 80’s would check anyways to get the skills they want first….that whole path of least resistance thing again!)

Blaeys.3102:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Zone.1275:

ColinJohanson.2394:

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I think special dynamic events could be one way. Currently some dynamic events open up special vendors to buy little knick knacks. For example, if in Brisban Wildlands there was a special dynamic event chain where you help the Skritt King in some way and after the events are over you can buy a new skill from him with skill points.

So a question for this, how would we message well to newer players how a system like this would work? One of the challenges of events is simply: they may not be running when you’re in an area. Is it ok to make people stand around waiting for an event to happen so they can get a specific thing from that event? How would they know what to do if the event wasn’t currently active, what form of messaging could help them understand the state of the world – while still being immersive and not requiring them to use a 3rd party app to progress?

One way to do this would be to use the heart/karma system you have in place instead of dynamic events.

This would tie in with your desire to get more people into the open game world (non-instanced).

When a player hits level 80, a series of new hearts open around the game world. As you release new skills, traits and even weapon/armor skins, you add new hearts.

When the player fills the heart, a new vendor appears that “sells” the new skills/traits for skill points and new armor/weapon skins for karma (we need new places to use karma anyway).

You could even tie the hearts, loosely, into current and past living story steps (eg, a heart quest in Diessa related to rebuilding/defending the hatchery that was attacked during Flame and Frost).

I like this idea, except for the level 80 part. If the content is in a lower level zone, then people at or above that level should have access to it with little exception.

Also maybe color the hearts a different color so all players know that that heart is the one that teaches a new skill, because that is probably what they are going to go for first anyways.

I’m just throwing out ideas as I get them…..

Some new Skill Challenges could be made specifically to help new players out at the begining could be Events and NPC’s that teach some basics of combat

(Combo Fields for Example : Have the NPC lay out various combo fields, and have you use a skill to produce a combo finisher, and then he’ll explain to you how it works. No more Wiki to explain that aspect of the game!!!

Skill Challenges much later in the game could task you with applying the knowledge you learned early on from these beginer challenges. Some could be some creatively designed puzzles, or they could be applied in those Order challenges that Darkace and Volkon are talking about)

Swagger.1459:

Zone.1275:

Swagger.1459:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Reading through a lot of the comments on various class diversification (or just stronger trait/skill diversification) concepts, one of the things that seems to be missing is a discussion on how you’d actually earn/unlock these additional abilities to make it a progression system.

One of the goals of progression, in this case horizontal, is to create an extended sense of game play and thus = reward for playing it.

For example, we’ve added more skills to the game recently, but those simply unlock with skill points, which basically means -> play any part of the game that gives exp, or kill champs to get skill point books. That’s ok as systems of unlocking horizontal progression go for the extended class diversification, but game play wise it generally means find the easiest place to get XP/champ-loot and do it over and over again for a large % of players, since folks most often gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

the current system works great and allows for progression on the individual players terms. no need to make “special” content that forces players to jump through hoops or do things outside of their realm of interest when you have a user friendly system in place. the main concern should be to improve existing content and adding more permanent content along the way.

Well just passing off more content variety seems kinda lame. I think if it was really desired to not have to work to get new skills, then there could be two options: a way to get new skills from doing objectives or just buying them from your skill sheet, but the latter would have to be much more expensive.

i’ll drop my edit from that post here…

“the last thing this game needs is another system for a system on top of a system for the last system that is filled with new currency, bits and drip drops of rewards while forcing players to filling up a new xp bar for +1%- +5% increases or new skills.”

this game has a streamlined and user friendly system to level up and gain skill points. there is absolutely no need to convolute the system or force players to do specific content in one area of the game to progress their character.

Then let people go do event chains or something else that’s doing something to learn skills if they don’t have the proper number of skill points, and if you have the skill points, then you can just buy them. You are still unlocking the skill on your own terms this way.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Zone.1275:

ColinJohanson.2394:

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I think special dynamic events could be one way. Currently some dynamic events open up special vendors to buy little knick knacks. For example, if in Brisban Wildlands there was a special dynamic event chain where you help the Skritt King in some way and after the events are over you can buy a new skill from him with skill points.

So a question for this, how would we message well to newer players how a system like this would work? One of the challenges of events is simply: they may not be running when you’re in an area. Is it ok to make people stand around waiting for an event to happen so they can get a specific thing from that event? How would they know what to do if the event wasn’t currently active, what form of messaging could help them understand the state of the world – while still being immersive and not requiring them to use a 3rd party app to progress?

Maybe Let Players speak to Profession Trainers, and have a Dialogue option where you can ask them if they have any leads on where to continue your “Training” in your profession. Any Profession Trainer for your profession should be able to tell you where to go, and they tell you where you can go based on your level (so a Trainer won’t send you to Orr if you just started out)

To solve the event problem, the events could be new events specifically made for this system, and they are like Skill challenges in that you can see where they are on the map, and there is always an NPC/Item/ something there you can interact with so the event can be started at any time, so it doesn’t just run on autopilot.

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Hey, I ran great sword/sword-focus on my mesmer for a long time, and still could be, but I decided to switch things up… redid the traits and now am giving staff/scepter-focus a go. It’s a completely different feel to combat now, and I’ve had to relearn what the skills to at depth, new synergies, new observations, etc. If you’re stagnant it’s by choice.

Except, thats the same build that other players have been running for the last year. It doesn’t matter that you finally decided to change your build. Other players have many times changed their style of gameplay, but the end result is still “Deal more damage than the other guy”. Its still Stagnant. Its still Pungent. It still smells like the soda you left on the counter a week ago, and now its fermenting. Seriously, your differennce in gameplay that you just described is the same as the difference between Coke, Pepsi, and Offbrand cola. They are all still cola, and no one is going to care that you drink off brand instead of a different version.

I have 8 total armor sets now for my ranger, and I have went through hundreds of combinations, but, according to the forums, and my own experience, nothing beats brain dead Zerker mode. The Weapon combination and Trait combination does not matter, the fact is, is that your goal is to still do more damage than the other guy (NPC, boss, whatever), and there is no layer of strategy or tactics under that, because everyone has been using the same strategy for over a year.

Hey, if you want to run the same builds that every other player has been running for over a year, and call that good, go on ahead, but, we still need more build diversity, regardless of whether you finally decided to change your build or not.

I don’t know if it’s the same build others have run or not… I didn’t check. And no… it’s not about dealing more damage with my choices, it’s about helping the group out more and winning the fights as a team. Individually I’ve noticed that this build isn’t as effective (1v1), however in a group it’s a lot more effective overall. It plays completely differently than the gs/sword-focus build from before.

Again, I’m not against build diversity in the least. More depth to the skills, more balance across d/c/s, more need to learn the intricacies of the skills and gain a knowledge of when a better time to use them is a wonderful thing. However, if a sub-class system winds up pigeon-holing people into more specialized roles that’s a horrible choice. Sub-classes run the risk of leading to specialization, and that leads to elitism and the rejection of perfectly capable players and characters simply because they don’t meet the paradigm of the day.

Imagine a trait where I had the option to pop a feedback bubble to blind or knock down foes in the area? Imagine a trait where grasping earth would, if on a foe that was knocked down, prevent them from getting up a little longer, or perhaps add a bleed or extend the duration of existing conditions? Things like this would add elements to combat that require you to actually consider your skills a little harder and take better advantage of situations at hand. Perhaps it’s better to leave feedback up for the duration, or perhaps the enemy isn’t firing projectiles so feedback can be used in a whole different way. THAT’S the type of trait/skill enhancements we need, not something that has the potential to remove diversity.

Oh, I get you now!!!! Except that, no wait, that was exactly what I was talking about for, oh…. the last 30 pages or so, so, why are you arguing with me again?

Oh, and elitism already exists in Dungeons where many (not all) groups require a Ranger to run Spotter and Frost spirit, or they are ‘useles’, so everything you fear, just like Specialization, is in the game already. You can run from it, but it will outrun you

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Ah yes, great times, especially since I ran full zerker during halloween, and I just simply reflected his candy corn bombs back at him. Never died while fighting him once. Still did nothing for the fact that I was running around in Zerker gear, same weapons, and same style of play, and it is the exact same build I am running now, and the same build I was running last January. Nothing has changed.

Ah, very nice example of not pressing 1 to win! Thank you for supporting my argument.

Except that when I say “Press 1 to Win”, I also mean “Press the exact same keys that you did for the last two years to Win”. Those are the same thing in my book. I could care less if they are in yours. They both require the same pathetic amount of tactics and brain power in order to do, and if you are okay with that, hey, that’s your thing. For everyone else, We want more skills so that way we can actually expand on the ways we play the game instead of doing a mirror image of what we did last year and the year before.

Hey, I ran great sword/sword-focus on my mesmer for a long time, and still could be, but I decided to switch things up… redid the traits and now am giving staff/scepter-focus a go. It’s a completely different feel to combat now, and I’ve had to relearn what the skills to at depth, new synergies, new observations, etc. If you’re stagnant it’s by choice.

Except, thats the same build that other players have been running for the last year. It doesn’t matter that you finally decided to change your build. Other players have many times changed their style of gameplay, but the end result is still “Deal more damage than the other guy”. Its still Stagnant. Its still Pungent. It still smells like the soda you left on the counter a week ago, and now its fermenting. Seriously, your differennce in gameplay that you just described is the same as the difference between Coke, Pepsi, and Offbrand cola. They are all still cola, and no one is going to care that you drink off brand instead of a different version.

I have 8 total armor sets now for my ranger, and I have went through hundreds of combinations, but, according to the forums, and my own experience, nothing beats brain dead Zerker mode. The Weapon combination and Trait combination does not matter, the fact is, is that your goal is to still do more damage than the other guy (NPC, boss, whatever), and there is no layer of strategy or tactics under that, because everyone has been using the same strategy for over a year.

Hey, if you want to run the same builds that every other player has been running for over a year, and call that good, go on ahead, but, we still need more build diversity, regardless of whether you finally decided to change your build or not.

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Ah yes, great times, especially since I ran full zerker during halloween, and I just simply reflected his candy corn bombs back at him. Never died while fighting him once. Still did nothing for the fact that I was running around in Zerker gear, same weapons, and same style of play, and it is the exact same build I am running now, and the same build I was running last January. Nothing has changed.

Ah, very nice example of not pressing 1 to win! Thank you for supporting my argument.

Except that when I say “Press 1 to Win”, I also mean “Press the exact same keys that you did for the last two years to Win”. Those are the same thing in my book. I could care less if they are in yours. They both require the same pathetic amount of tactics and brain power in order to do, and if you are okay with that, hey, that’s your thing. For everyone else, We want more skills so that way we can actually expand on the ways we play the game instead of doing a mirror image of what we did last year and the year before.

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Ah yes, great times, especially since I ran full zerker during halloween, and I just simply reflected his candy corn bombs back at him. Never died while fighting him once. Still did nothing for the fact that I was running around in Zerker gear, same weapons, and same style of play, and it is the exact same build I am running now, and the same build I was running last January. Nothing has changed.

And Build Diversity is the whole point (that you keep mising somehow). Combat is starting to get Stale, and thats why you see a large number of people suggesting sub class ideas and skill expansion, so that way there can be an increase in build diversity, not keep it the same for another five years until Guild Wars 3 comes out.

And who ever said that a Sub-Class would pigeonhole you into specifically healing or Tanking, or control, or support? You have a very closed minded way of thinking about how a system like that would work, and you should obviously think about that a little more.

Dalanor.5387:

So sub classes would be the same thing as we have now with traits and gear, but within a drop down menu? Can someone enlighten me why this is better than the current system (which still needs fixing and expanding, but thats another story)?

Read those sub class ideas a little harder. 90% of them were concieved as ways to expand the Trait system, not to create a whole new systrem.