Guild Wars 2

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

Wait a second! You mean that there is actually strategy in Combat right now outside of “Press 1 to Win!”?

Because not including PvP, what I just said is almost always the case. And besides, I was never talking about Healer in the effect of making it the only role a profession has available to it at that time. However, making Healing Power, etc more effective for people who actually invest in it, instead of very obviously making it and every other stat not scale even half as well as power is a problem, and is the main killer in build diversity right now (also, just the general way that PvE is designed also kills Build diversity.)

But if any Class is supposed to fill any role, whats the problem with Specialization for any profession to start with? If Anet does it right and actually balances things like that, why would you demand an Elementalist healer over a Guardian, or a Necromancer, or even a Warrior? Seems like a pointless argument to me.

The problem with Specialization, is that its going to happen, no matter your objection to it, even if Subclasses was never a factor. Now, It was kind of fun to entertain the idea of subclasses, but consider this :: a class that doesn’t have an Elite Signet skill, or healing signet skill suddenly gets one. Well, guess what, that just made your signet build more specialized than it was before, and that dark and dangerous path of Required builds ends up getting taken anyways.

Adding more skills to the game (even as a form of Horizontal progression by adding new weapon skills or any skill really) is going to force people into new builds pretty much no matter what system you chose to go with.

Nike.2631:

Chrispy.5641:

There. That’s my idea.

Unfortunately its pretty much all vertical progression. Every time the payoff is you kill plains-wurms faster or more safely.

It also locks together things that have no connection. If I want to be better at dual wielding (your “Swashbuckler” benefit) I have to pour 30 trait points into Beastmastery? I realize its just one way of setting things up, but any Sub-class systems becomes so reliant on the particular vision of just the designer(s), when the purpose is to serve a million-plus players who may hold wildly different expectations of what a swashbuckler does and how to go about becoming one.

Finally it hoses every possible build that doesn’t commit 30 points to two trait lines. They are now the old and inferior – second class citizens for not following ‘the format’.

Swashbuckler was actually Skirmishing and Nature Magic, and it was a random name. The Benefit I thought of was based mostly on the traits you have in those two trait lines, though some are kind of out there (like the dual wielding thing, but in my defense, you can take a trait that gives you more critical damage when wielding an axe in your mainhand, so why not get a bonus for dual wielding?). Some aren’t (like the critical hit related part of that sub-class benefit, That is specifically Skirmishing, period). Again random ideas that should be worked on.

Also, I did write that out (for not having 30 points in anything), but erased it because the post was too long, then forgot to put it back in after splitting the post into two…, here it is (actually, I’ll worry about it later)

These are all what-ifs and what-hows, none of which should be a concern right now.

(Continued…)
Example
- For this Example, We’ll be using the Ranger again. This is only an Example, and should not be taken as an end Solution. The Values are not taken with Balance in mind, just again, to show an example for how it could work……

(01) Marskmanship and Skirmishing : Sub-class Becomes Sniper
- Increases Range for all Ranged attacks (Bows, axes, daggers, warhorn, traps, GS#4, etc.), and increases damage dealt by weapons when at Maximum range.
(02) Marksmanship and Wilderness Survival : Sub-Class Becomes Scout
- Increases Endurance Regeneration, and Regain Opening Strike when Interrupted.
(03) Marksmanship and Nature Magic : Sub-Class Becomes Tracker
- All Shouts Inflict a Revealed Debuff, and your Pet can ‘sense’ Stealth Enemies.
(04) Marksmanship and Beastmastery : Sub-Class Becomes Beastmaster
- Increases Signet Duration and Reduces Signet Cooldown.
(05) Skirmishing and Wilderness Survival : Sub-Class Becomes Warden
- Reduces Physical Damage and Condition Damage taken and Increases the number of Targets affected by Traps.
(06) Skirmishing and Nature Magic : Sub-Class Becomes Swashbuckler
- Attack Faster when Dual wielding, and Remove a Condition when you are Struck by a Critical Hit.
(07) Skirmishing and Beastmastery : Sub-Class Becomes Trailblazer
- Increase Movement Speed, and gain swiftness for you or your pet whenever you or your pet inflict a Critical hit.
(08) Wilderness Survival and Nature Magic : Sub-Class Becomes Shaman
- Dodging Removes Immobilize and Cripple. Spirits have twice as much Toughness.
(09)Wilderness Survival and Beastmastery : Sub-Class Becomes Woodsman
- Pets gain secondary Stats based on your Secondary stats. You gain Power based on your Toughness, and your Pet gains power based on its Toughness.
(10) Nature Magic and Beastmastery : Sub-Class Becomes Druid
- Increases Healing and Boon Duration, and Shouts Also Apply Protection.

There. That’s my idea. I’m sure it could be expanded on, or a better system could be suggested instead. But, this is the last I’m going to go into this area for now, because, Guhracie.3419 is kind of right. We should be addressing the various shortcomings that each profession has before we try to get into Sub-Classing or Weapon/Skill Expansion. So my suggestion from a previous post still stands. A CDI for each profession should be made in all the Profession Forums, so those can be worked out first before we get into more complex things like this…

Also, I didn’t get into any visual cutomization, because I think that This Idea can fulfill that purpose without blocking players into any specific build of any kind…:::

Horizontal Progression and Visual Customization

Since I finished adding to my earlier half-baked sub class idea, I will go on and post the whole thing, since it (sub-classes) is at the center of the discussion right now.

Sub-Classes
Sub-Classes can be a way for Players to diffrentiate themselves from another Player at Level 80.

What Subclasses Should not Do

• Sub-Classes should not Lock Players out of any Skill or Weapon. Any new weapon or skill that gets introduced to a profession should be available to anyone at any level so long as they can fufill the requirements to unlock them.
• Sub-Classes should not introduce power creep in any significant way, though they should still allow a greater specialization in a certain gameplay aspect for any given profession (such as Healing, Support, or more specifically Banners or Traps), otherwise there is no point in a Sub-Class to start

What Sub-Classes Should Do

• Sub-Classes should introduce a wider variety of Character Builds that encourage Players to try out different things. At the same time this happens, New content should be made so that DPS is not always the most important aspect of any team. This way, a Character with more Control or Support is just as important as a Character that goes full Glass cannon. (this can be done for example by having bosses with unique mechanics, such as bosses that take double damage when inflicted with a certain condition, or deals less damage so long as you are getting a certain boons, etc…)

How could Subclasses be Implemented in the game?

• Unlock Access to Subclasses by paying for them with your Skill Points, or by spending Gold and buying a Manual from a Class Trainer.
• Another way to do it is by Collecting Page Scraps for a Manual from the game world by doing events and buying the pages from Karma Vendors.
• After you collect 10-20 Page scraps, you double click on them, and it turns into a Manual that you can then sell or use yourself to be able to Unlock a Sublcass.
• Tie Subclasses to Traits. Fully Investing 30 Trait Points into any two Trait lines will give a Player access to a Subclass with bonuses.
• There are 10 Possible Subclasses for Each Profession based on the number of Trait Lines currently available, but even that could be expanded in the future by allowing you to pick different subclasses after fully investing into 2 traitlines with different benefits.
• I forgot to mention that in order to take the subclass, you have to spend the remaining 10 Trait points you have. That way, there is no question of balance, just greater specialization into any of 10 areas depending on sub-class.
  (Continued in Next post)

Baels.3469:

I feel like actual meaningful discussion on horizontal progression is being rail-roaded by ‘sub class’ discussion.

I’m not saying that sub classes don’t provide interesting and thought provoking discussion, just that in the grand scheme of things and those things which are likely to be considered and acted upon; they’re probably not up there.

Additionally, we can discuss the pros and cons of sub classes all day every day, but unless people are making actual proposals on how the system would work, it’s all just theory.

….

Could we have a profession/class development CDI at some point to appease the sub-class enthusiasts?

Read about the halfway point in this Article ::: Looking Ahead: Guild Wars 2 in 2013

Anet has talked a little about wanting to add new skills in the past, and they talked about it in relation to Horizontal Progression, no different than housing, zone progression, or anything else. The thing is, its the end of the year, and there has been no new traits without replacing old ones, erasing them, and moving around others. We have gotten a total of 2 new skills, both of them being healing skills.

The reason why we see so many Sub-class ideas (and skill expansion ideas from earlier in the thread), is that many, many players (myself included) are getting frustrated at the lack of Character progression at level 80 (related to combat and killing things). A Ranger has been the same Ranger for over a year, and a Warrior has been the same Warrior for over a year. There is no diversification going on, and there is no increase in skillset either.

Sub-Classes and Skill Expansion can be a meaningful way to discuss horizontal progression. Its not derailing and moving away from the talk about Housing, because the idea of Horizontal progression is at the heart of just about everything talked about in this thread so far.

(And there is a Slightly better Sub-Class proposal I am working on, just not done yet, and I am waiting to see if we are going to save Sub-Classes and Skill expansion for a future CDI thread, or if we’re going to get that discussion taken care of right now)

Guhracie.3419:

I think it’s a terrible idea to do a CDI on sub-classing without doing one on the existing professions first. And then, I think underwater and downed combat both deserve some attention before sub-classing. Basically, sub-classes don’t even make my top 3 list of class-related discussion.

We need to talk about those as well, because it has also been discusses at length in this thread and many others about how all classes are not created equal.

I suggest to Chris that we get a Seperate Profession CDI in each of the Profession Forums. Those will not get as much Anet love and attention as others, but no one loves a profession better than the people that play it, and each individual Profession CDI will fill as many pages as any two CDI threads so far. (So, just like these threads, we should have a person summarizing each thread to make the Devs’ lives easier)

Kentaine.4692:

I never understood this either. If warriors can use ALL of the melee weapons (except daggers and torches) why can’t the rangers use ALL of the ranged weapons (except maybe staff/trident/scepter since those are magical and rangers are physical).

wouw.5837:

Rangers are people who are close to nature, they tame pets and don’t use guns or magic (except spirits).

in other words Guns=Machines, machines <-> Nature, so bad.

Rangers aren’t magical, except for the Nature spirits they can summon, the random muddy terrain and entangling vines they can make pop out of nowhere, and pop anywhere, even on a stony street, oh! and the Traitline they have that is specifically called Nature MAGIC. You have to be a fool to think that Rangers don’t do magic, when it was stated by Anet that all professions know how to use it, even brainless warriors who can summon their banners from the middle of nowhere! There is nothing in the lore saying that even Warriors can’t use a staff like it’s magic instead of like a physical weapon.

Staves could work for Rangers, Also, Rifles could work, and Hammers, and Maces, and heck, why not mainhand Torches and Daggers too?

timmyf.1490:

Yoh.8469:

• Mesmer’s could have two sub-classed, the Illusionist and the Duelist.
• The Illusionist gains a maximum of 2 more clones, for a max of 5. Including new skills and abilities that specialize in support via deception and trickery.
• The Duelist on the other hand gains new version of Shatter skills, specializing in control via interruption and CC.

If you extended trait lines to 40 points and added these as the 40-point option, you could do exactly the same thing. I don’t think there should be any gating of utility skills (beyond profession), but one could argue in favor of utility or weapon skills that require a trait.

Doing it this way saves substantial development time which could be used for Order Missions, housing, or hey, maybe a third heavy armor profession.

Adding subclasses as a 40 point Trait option could work. The way the system is set up, players could only ever pick one trait line with 40 points. The game balance isn’t going to collapse into a black hole if a character suddenly has 100 more power and 10% more condition duration for example. The only problem with that is that if you can pick previous traits from that trait line in the 40 slot (such as a second 30 point trait) it would seriously destroy balance in the game. So that 4th major slot has to be something special that doesn’t mess up the balance.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Like I’ve said though, if we move sub-class discussion to its own CDI, or discard it entirely, we have like, 75% housing 25% zone progression and that’s almost it. Do we have anything else that needs its time in the spotlight? or can we move to the next portion of CDI?

If you throw out the talking about New Skills/Weapons/Weapon Skills/Etc. in general and lump that together with Sub-classes (which we probably should, and give all of that its own CDI and leave this thread for cosmetic stuff only), then yea, those numbers seem about right….but thats only if….

…you forget there was also alot of talk about Order Quests and Faction Progression in General earlier on in the thread, and there was a little bit talking about Lore and a Hard Mode way back at the begining as well. You can’t count those out just because they aren’t being talked about currently.

UrsVieru.8504:

Chrispy.5641:

That’s only if you focus on Subclasses solely for the purpose of adding new skills. If you make subclases in a way that doesn’t lock players out of anything specific while still offering a greater level of specialization, it could work very well in the current system.

Well, if you don’t lock players out of anything, this means no new skills, weapons or traits for the subclasses. This leaves only passive bonuses. I’ve actually found and read your proposal, and this seems to be your idea, as well.

I see several problems with that, too:

First, traits already provide passive bonuses – so why not add new traits instead? I’m not sure that added complexity of subclasses gains anything.

Second, this promotes passive gameplay – something that in my opinion goes against the spirit of the GW combat system; where you’re supposed to tactically ‘do something’ in combat to get a benefit.

Third, and this is more general issue, I think more specialization is the wrong way to go when providing progression (both horizontal of vertical). There is only so much you can specialize before stuffing characters into very tiny boxes; once you hit that ceiling, you’re out of that particular means of progression -and- you’ve risked damaging the game by introducing super-powerful combination of stats bonuses (for example, what happens when signet bonus trait, gear and subclass interact? Nobody tested signet spam builds, and it’s too late when you have to un-add things that looked like a good idea in a small scale test…)

Anyway, this is probably the wrong thread to discuss the point #3 – maybe we -should- have a general combat system and balancing CDI; because I don’t think we’ve ever discussed the design options for specialization vs generality, resource management vs cooldown, and options for power growth without reintroducing the trinity.

Yeah….it seemed like you didn’t get my point very well and you should also read an earlier post I made about how Anet is forcing us into DPS only…..

as for the other post, I just posted an example, not an end solution. It obviously needs to be worked on.

Adding more benefits through traits is not going to work though because you only get three traits in any trait line to specialize in. And Anet should explore the possibility of letting us specialize into a specific type of gameplay past Traits, Weapons, Armor, and Skills. Why? It increases Build Diversity, which is something this game desperately needs. DPS only is getting old (very old) outside of PvP, and it does not make Guild Wars 2 a better game for it.

EDIT – And I will say again, this topic should be saved for another time, because Horizontal progression isn’t really a factor in it.

UrsVieru.8504:

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned, so I’m sorry if I’m repeating anyone else’s point.

I think the general problem with subclasses is that they’re redundant in the Guild Wars system, specifically, they don’t contribute much in a game with limited skillbar. The purpose with subclasses, in the games that have them, is to limit the number of skills that a player can use together. But we already have this; and what subclasses would do is that they’d only limit the number of viable builds. Now this could have the side-effect of making the game easier to balance, but only when the number of skills vastly grows; I don’t think we’re anywhere near this point.

So my suggestion in this regard is to simply keep adding skills, at least while we’re still short of 100-200/class. At that point, additional build limiting mechanisms may become important, but one could also instead discuss additional balancing mechanisms in general (such as additional resource management).

That’s only if you focus on Subclasses solely for the purpose of adding new skills. If you make subclases in a way that doesn’t lock players out of anything specific while still offering a greater level of specialization, it could work very well in the current system.

…..yeah, I’ll admit that Subclasses isn’t really Horizontal Progression (you can’t really say its Vertical progression either). But, it should probably be saved for a new CDI thread for later, maybe one that only focuses on that aspect of the game (Things like Traits, more skill options, Subclasses, weapons, etc.)

Orpheal.8263:

I want to ask you directly:
What is your problem with there being Sub Class Skills, that you can use only, when you have chosen the correspondign Sub Class for it or with Armor Sets, that you can wear only, when you use the fitting Sub Class?
While you think about your answer, I want you, that you think also on the Racial Skills and Cultural Armors which actually work the same.

The only problem I have with Subclasses (other than thinking they might not work because of how stats work in this game (see my above Post)

Is that a subclass system might lock you out of certain build and skill choices. I know that is your whole point in your subclass idea and you have made several lengthy posts on why its not a bad thing, but, I like that currently you can access any of your profession skills, without any barrier. I like that I can use a Signet of the Hunt, a Muddy Terrain, and “Protect Me!” in the same build if that is how I want to play.

An idea I have for Subclasses would be to instead give players a bonus if they fully invest 30 points into any two of your Traitlines. They do not require a Trait, and unlock automatically once you hit 30 points into any traitline. If you want a more complex system, then the Subclass bonus can activate even with less than 30 points, the specific bonus changes depending on what exactly you invest in. (also at this point its more Diagonal progression than vertical or horizontal, but still what I would prefer)

It is a small bonus and doesn’t affect the game by a large margin. It can also give you a new Profession Icon right alongside your old one. For Example….

Subclasses for Ranger (I love this class, despite other people’s opinions!)

• Invest Fully into Marksmanship and Beastmastery, Become a Beastmaster, Increases the Duration of Signet effects by 15%, and Reduces the Cooldown on Signets by a further 15% (35% total with Signet Mastery)

• Invest Fully into Marksmanship and Precision, Become a Sniper, Increases Range on Shortbow and Axes by 300, and adds a 15% damage bonus to all Ranged weapons when shooting near Max. Range (within 300 units of max. range)

• Invest Fully into Skirmishing and Wilderness Survival, Become a Warden, You take 10% less damage from physical damage and conditions, and increases the radius of your Traps by a further 60.

• Invest Fully into Nature Magic and Beastmastery, Become a Druid, Increases Healing Effectiveness by 15% and increases the duration of all Boons by 15%.

• (I am against this personally), Maybe fully investing into two Traitlines gives you access to a new weapon. 5 Total, and different combinations give you access to different weapons. For example, the Druid and Warden I just gave would give you access to a Staff, and the Beastmaster and Sniper would give you access to Rifles.

Even though they only affect specific skills, they do not lock you out of other skills. That’s what I would rather see, but at this point, I am in favor of just about anything that increases my options when running out there killing things, as having to use the same 5 skills on my skillbar for almost two years (I played in beta), its starting to get extremely stale.

Last thing though, lets stop the back and forth and come up with something for a subclass proposal, because it is definitely something I want to see.

StriderShinryu.6923:

Orpheal.8263:

The problem lies not in a class being best in something .. the problem with this game lies at the moment, that DPS is everything and all other builds are just useless.

If the game would support properly all kinds of build types, damage, support, as like control, then there would be no problem with it of a clas beign best in one of those 3 aras, because of the other 2 areas also being good enough, to be successful with them in the game, just with other styles of gameplay..

This is a very good point. Personally, I really like the idea of sub classes or class specialization. The only reason I can see why these ideas may not work right now is also because there is one build that is so far and away the best that it wouldn’t matter. The system would be broken not because it’s a bad idea, but because the game balance as it exists now doesn’t really support it.

These Two Posts are WAY too long to Quote for this Thread, but they were posts I made about two months ago on why DPS is better than everything else without exception :::

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Make-more-enemies-immune-to-crit-damage/2986332

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Make-more-enemies-immune-to-crit-damage/2989061

I did math comparing Power to Toughness in the Second post, but I did do the math for the first post as well, but never posted it (I will if you want to see it). (Also, you can never get to 3000 Toughness in this game, but it is easy to get 3,000 Power.)

The game does not support other build combinations very well, and introducing Subclasses won’t suddenly fix the issue, neither will suddenly balancing stats to be more inline with each other.

We are probably stuck with the current system, because in the effort to get rid of Tanks and Healers, they(anet) balanced every other stat to be less effective than Power, and also forgot that Control and Support are the basically the same thing as Tank and Healer, and rely on similar stats in other MMO’s (not including boon/condition duration)

The Problem is, they are useless most of the time because of how stats work in this game (that is debatable for Control, despite what this one guy keeps saying : draxynnic.3719, because control doesn’t rely on any specific stat, and the only thing nerfing it is a mechanic preventing 100% stunlock.)

(Insert Obligatory comment about how Anet finds beneficial Ranger bugs like a laser guided missile, but couldn’t fix a typo to save their lives.)

Forzani.2584:

How many times have you been in WvW on any class that you have built for full defense. A Thief comes by and gives you a few shots. Realizes that you have high toughness/HPs so disengages by stealthing and looks for a softer target. He doesn’t have to pay for being glass like other classes do.

happens every time.

Also, Rangers are Second Best at everything, but are Number 1 at Nothing. We aren’t even number one at being a pet class. Necromancers make a better pet class than we do.

Bezagron.7352:

So now lets dream.

Cantha & Elona have been added to the world. We can now explore these new area’s but wait haven’t these two lands been isolated for the about the last 200 years. Just as the Tyria we know has advanced (Engineer’s & Guardian’s, gunpowder, asura laser cannons), so too in some way wouldn’t these lands have other advancements (New professions, new or ancient technology’s). Also would a Warrior, Ranger or Necromancer fight the same in these far away lands (New weapons, weapons skills for existing weapons, skills & traits).

The question for me is not just expanding build content but explaining in game this new content. In this way I see sub-classes as supporting functionality for the collection of build content, just how Chris see skin lockers as supporting functionality for skin collection.

In short for any system expanded or introduced, please also provide in game explanation for the expanded or new content.

That right there. Unless you try really hard to explain some sort of theory for the convergent evolution of Guns, Gadgets, and Guardian monks for Tyria, Cantha, and Elona, there’s just no way it would work without creating a hole in the lore big enough to suck worse than most players’ expectations of Scarlet.

(of course, you could explain it in a way, because the Order of Whispers still has access to Elona, and Cantha did have Cannons strapped to their siege turtles long before guns were invented, but still….)

Flagello.2374:

no new gear
Ascended gear should not exist according to your beginning statement

Rumors have floated around in the deepest darkest corners of the internet that Anet was working on Ascended gear and Fractals of the Mist long before the game was ever released, but got pushed back in favor of refining and fixing other aspects of the game. So are you telling me that it shouldn’t exist because it takes too long to get, or it shouldn’t exist because Anet didn’t complete it on time?

Deified.7520:

Chrispy.5641:

Deified.7520:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Snip snip snippity snip

My original three were:

— Role Diversification: New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, infusions and hybrid professions.

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing, Guild Halls, and Faction Alliances leading to new game play opportunities, rewards and content.

— Hero Recognition: Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

And my top one is:

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing, Guild Halls, and Faction Alliances leading to new game play opportunities, rewards and content.

The other two were extremely close but I feel this one would have the best bang for buck for the community.

Finally note we are working on horizontal progression, with many of ideas (some of which may even be in this thread), so I can’t stress enough that this exercise is about further ideation focus refinement. Not a dev list.

Chris

Le Bump!

Chris

Bump

.

Housing and Guild Halls will improve the experience for just about everything, generally, except for the act of running around killing things.

How will Housing and Guild Halls improve on the experience of running around and killing things, which does eat up a rather large portion of gameplay right now?

They offer a new reward system for players to get. Furniture, trophies, vendors, etc. Now I’ve posted my idea before, but basically guild halls would not exist in instances like in gw1. If they did a similar gw1 system then towns would be even more dead, they would have to not put in TP, banks, etc. If they did that then they would be pretty useless for a lot of people, like the personal districts in the towns. Basically it would be a combination (my idea) of the faction towns in factions from gw1 and guild halls. There would exist 2-3 guild halls in each zone. These guild halls would have special guild only area they the guild can choose to open to the public and a regular town area. They would be tied to the stabilization of an area selected in the zone for the guild hall. You do more events, kill more unique bosses, and do mini dungeons in said area, the stabilization goes up. There are tiers and each tier unlocks something in the guild hall. It would be the only place in a zone to find a TP and a bank. Could unlock special karma vendors with unique looking gear for level 80s along with rares/greens/blues for lower levels in the area. You can also unlock special structures that give you long buffs that last a considerable amount of time, don’t take the place of any currennt food buffs, and can be used in WvW, dungeons, fractals, etc. Everywhere except spvp (could do a special part of it that gives an increase to glory and what not to make guild halls useful in pvp too). You could also unlock special quest giver of sorts (I noticed a lot of people have requested quest) for a special daily that offers a good reward, but is challenging (in terms of skill, like queens gauntlent. Not just a grind).

You’re right, adding in guild halls wont directly affect killing things, but it could offer a branch point for anet to implement things that make running around the open world and killing things more rewarding for the player, world, and community.

EDIT: Guild halls would be tied to the amount of influence a guild has. The higher level zone, the high amount of influence required to claim and “maintain” a guild hall. It automatically puts guilds in charge of halls so they can’t claim low level ones because it is easier. There would be a influence drain to help get rid of afk guilds/inactive guilds. This influence drain would go down slower of the zone that the hall is in is stabilized. This means lower player count guilds would have a chance of getting a guild hall, but high player count guilds halls would be put in zones that would properly use the higher player count (higher level zones mean harder events, sometimes more people required). If an event fails it could also cause the stabilization to go down more.

Very nicely explained!

Also, Its so nice to see people actually explain their positions with absolutely none of this “It was in an earlier post!” stuff (then they don’t link said earlier post!)…just saying, I’ve read all 34 pages, but,…34 pages is alot of stuff to read through and memorize.

Deified.7520:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Snip snip snippity snip

My original three were:

— Role Diversification: New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, infusions and hybrid professions.

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing, Guild Halls, and Faction Alliances leading to new game play opportunities, rewards and content.

— Hero Recognition: Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

And my top one is:

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing, Guild Halls, and Faction Alliances leading to new game play opportunities, rewards and content.

The other two were extremely close but I feel this one would have the best bang for buck for the community.

Finally note we are working on horizontal progression, with many of ideas (some of which may even be in this thread), so I can’t stress enough that this exercise is about further ideation focus refinement. Not a dev list.

Chris

Le Bump!

Chris

Bump

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing, Guild Halls, and Faction Alliances leading to new game play opportunities, rewards and content.

The skill system will improve over time. With this kind of mix of a class system while making every class can do everything, you need to find the right way to balance it and make specializing in something (damage, defense, or support) more rewarding in the specialized aspect while more punishing in the others. Along with that some of the PvE “inbalances” (such as go DPS or go home) can be alleviated with specialized dungeon designs that center around all that and the PvP meta can be easily changed if the new game modes are designed correctly to require other builds not in the meta to optimize your winning potential. So new skills and traits I dont think will do anything for the game till you guys (anet) figures out what you want to do with the skill system and build around that. Right now you dont and with the new skills I know many players ignored them or don’t use them. When I start seeing new skills that are properly made in a sense to promote build diversity and the current skills/traits are redesigned to promote build and trait diversity, then I will back putting in new skills to the game.

So thats why I pick Sociopolitical Diversification. By making guilds, factions, and player housing have a more importance, you can greatly improve the experience of the game for players in all game modes. This also opens up tons of doors for new content. Some of the most popular mods for games like Skyrim are housing mods. People just love customizing things and making it their own, I feel like this type of thing (with guilds/factions its even better) would greatly help promote guilds, player social involvement, and can offer a way to make various big actions in the game (like killing an elder dragon) feel more rewarding but offering you or your guild specialized thins for their halls, houses, and bases. I still stand by my stance of heavily incorporating things like guild bases and faction bases into zones, dynamic events of zones, and the open world in general. Its beautiful out there and we really need to find ways to get players to move back in there.

Housing and Guild Halls will improve the experience for just about everything, generally, except for the act of running around killing things.

How will Housing and Guild Halls improve on the experience of running around and killing things, which does eat up a rather large portion of gameplay right now?

Illusions.3108:

i dont think so, maybe the dwarves will come back?

As long as the Dwarves remain immortal souless creatures of stone, I support them comming back!

….Otherwise…TENGU!!!!!!!

timmyf.1490:

Cliff.8679:

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

morrolan.9608:

How about some of the more egregious vertical progression imbalances get fixed before implementing purely horizontal progression suggestions such as the fixing ascended armor crafting so that it is more equitable instead of light armor taking 36 days to craft, medium armor 24 days and heavy armor 25 days due to the time gating on bolts of damask.

The goal of the T7 materials is not to be a pure time gate for crafting it’s to allow those materials to have value above their cost. This does mean weapons and armor that only take one material take longer to craft if you craft all the T7 mats yourself but you could also buy those mats thus it isn’t a time gate.

We do recognize that cloth prices are a bit high this is a factor of how hard it is to focus farm for leather and cloth. This is something we are looking into.

Honestly, I’m not so sure cloth prices being high is what you should be focusing on. You guys just put out a crafting system that punishes players for crafting with their own materials rather than spending money buying from the trading post. You can justify it as not being a time gate if you like, but I don’t see how that’s acceptable. Maybe a better option would be to fix the ascended crafting system itself, and then worry about playing with material acquisition.

As a counter-point, I’ve been crafting Damask and selling it at a substantial profit. This is the first time crafting has been profitable for me, so I’m happy.

Yep. On day 1, they were worth 25+ gold. Even now, they are hovering around 14 gold. This should still net you a small profit if you buy all the materials yourself.

That right there is how timegating should work.

(and yes, I still call it a time gate)(and Quartz is definitely a time gate, despite having no advantage over any other gear type)

Everoyne Talking about Sub Classes (from the last 4 pages or so)

…snip…. (Unless you want me to get the Sherpas….)

As far as skill progression goes, Sub Classes are the Wrong Answer. What should be done (and is currently done) is that all skills in any given profession are made available to everyone in the profession (if they unlocked it, if not, then too bad pal!). Doing something like taking on a specialization should not offer you certain skills while locking you out of others. (while the Trait system does favor one skill’s effectiveness over another when you go down that line, it doesn’t outright lock you out of using any skill you darn well want to)

Khisanth.2948:

Chrispy.5641:

Torvic.8256:

The sudden planetwide emergence of the Quaggan Empire?

So long as next year we get to see the Return of the Mursaat!

So agony everywhere and you’ll need to have ascended gear and infusions or die … uh no thanks. That would be worse than the toxic stuff.

Actually it was part joke/star wars reference, and part serious.

The White Mantle are in the game, but their unseen gods aren’t. What’s up with that?

Nike.2631:

Watching this video I realized…

Order-specific dances.

Make it so .

Let us type /dance infront of a Dragon champion. The Dragon then starts dancing. Then it stomps and kills everyone in a five mile radius with giant words on the screen saying “You got served!”

(Continued)
Druid’s Retreat ::: Fire a quick shot in an evasive retreat. Heal you and your pet for a little if the shot hits. This can be used while retreating.

The Challenge Xeni Lilia is a bit of an odd sylvari (get in Line!) in Caledon Forest. She is Raising a new breed of Ravaging Vampire Spiders to protect her Lillies! Xeni Lilia says that she has a favor she would like to ask. She wants to to brave the deep Caverns next to her and bring her some Vampire Spiders so she can raise them and release them on her Lillies to protect them. Its Mini Dungeon time!

• Down there are oversized Vampire Spiders. Xeni can’t use them so just kill them. Beware though, Vampire isn’t just some creepy name. They actually make use of it (they absorb health). (maybe have a Vampire Spider Pet, that as an F2 skill applies venom that absorbs health for a certain number of attacks, not the subject of this idea though!)
• You are looking for Vampire Spider eggs, which are at the very bottom, but once you get there, Oh crud! A Wild Champion Vampire Spider Queen appeared out of the darkness, ready to attack! You can fight her (for a rare chance at a weapon or something,…)
• …OR, you could also just grab the eggs and Run for it! You need 5 by the way.
• After doing a crazy task for an even crazier Sylvari, she teaches you Druid’s Retreat. For all that, you thought you were going to get some sort of awesome Necrotic Vampire skill, huh?

Almost the End (We’re near the Summit! Aren’t you glad you stuck with those Sherpas?)

• If times and amounts are balanced properly, none of these skills would be any more or less powerful than the other, they all have similar flavor of the original skill, and they all accomplish the same thing that the original skill did.

• Traits need not be affected at all. Neither does unique effect of the skill. Quick Shot and all its variants have the same backwards retreat. Mesmer skills that create clones would still do so. Thief skills that stealth would still do so, or do they……

• For example (with Ranger again), Greatsword #4 is a 3 second block, but if you block a melee attack, you do a powerful counter attack that may or may not hit, and your block ends. Well, Forget that! Take a skill variant that does not have a counter attack or crippling throw only the very useful Block. Or take another skill that only has crippling throw and no counter attack. Those might be slightly weaker and less versatile than the original skill, but those variants would have their uses in some situations.

• This could also add hundreds of events and NPC’s into the game world, and would also greatly diversify the current Skill challenges, something that we also need.
• The Variety of new builds that could come out of this are nearly endless.

• Everything shouldn’t have to be made at once. One new skill per profession could be introduced each living world release. It’ll take 5 years to introduce every skill variant probably, but that’ll leave enough time to get the base system set in place, and work out any bugs, and also balance every skill.

(continued)
Example (Ranger Shortbow)(Skill #3 Quick Shot)

• It is my belief that the specific purpose of this skill is to do a well times evade, and to make distance between you and your enemy.

Quick Shot ::: (Base skill) Fire a quick shot in an evasive retreat. Gain swiftness if the shot hits. This can be used while retreating.

Stealth Shot ::: Fire a quick shot in an evasive retreat. Gain stealth if the shot hits. This can be used while retreating.

The Challenge Gary Silent Arrow is a famous Charr Archer tracking Flame Legion. You find him at the entrance to a narrow passage way in the Iron Marches. He says that the Flame Legion left some important intel in the cottage at the end, but, there is a magic trap that will burn anything that tries to enter. He says that he would get it himself, but he would rather see someone else try. He says that You need to Stealth yourself to get through, but it needs to be a powerful stealth skill, so he reccomends that you stealth yourself for maximum effect. If you suceed, he will teach you Stealth Shot, so that way you have another option to be invisible in the future.

• The Magic Trap can detect if the source of the stealth is on you, or if someone applied it to you (the game can track this already I think), if it detects that you aren’t the original source of the stealth, you get burned alive and die on the spot.
• You cannot evade your way through since the magic is too powerful.
• The only targetable thing you can hit is a poor defenseless P. Dog at the begining. If you hit him, he goes into his hole and becomes untargetable for 10 seconds.
• Even if you do stealth yourself, it will take 3 seconds to get through, meaning certain death if you are not fast enough.
• Gary will revive you and teleport you to the begining if you die.

• My way to get through that trap would be to hit the poor prarie dog with Longbow’s Hunter’s Shot to stealth myself, then switch to Greatsword, then use Swoop to quickly move past the area. Or use Lightning Reflexes then quickly dodge backwards.
• You could also use one of your pigs to find an item that stealth’s yourself.
• Use Rampage as One and Protect me/Signet of Stone to force your way through without getting knocked down/ dying instantly.
• A Mesmer could try to use Portal, but Gary Silent Arrow tells you that there is a portal detection spell at the other end, if a Portal is set up, instant death to anyone who passes through.

• After you find the piece of Intel, you need to get back through to the other end. You could just run into the flame and die, at which point Gary will teleport you to the begining, or you can repeat what you did to get past the trap to begin with.

Pin Shot ::: Fire a quick shot in an evasive retreat. Inflict Immobilize if the shot hits. This can be used while retreating.

The Challenge There is a Hylek in Bloodtide Coast that wants to catch a particularly fast moving creature. He wants you to try to slow it down, and immobilize it long enough for the Hylek to poison it. He says that the creature is very fast, and will run through any vines, mud, or spikes you set up, but it may trip if it runs across icy ground, leaving it open to being immobilized, or you can try to chill it to slow it down, also leaving it open to being immobilized. He will teach you a new Skill if you can accomplish this task.

• I want a Ranger to tell me how they would solve it. It should be easy, and there are multiple ways to solve it.

Tormenting Shot ::: Fire a quick shot in an evasive retreat. Inflict Torment if the shot hits. This can be used while retreating.

The Challenge Bobbbo Beefriend is a Human living in the Brisban Wildlands. He is a bee keeper, and he raises a particular nasty brood of bees. He ran into a problem though. He locks the queen up every night so bandits don;t steal her, but he forgot to unlock the cage in the morning. The rest of the bees are in a serious fit of rage, and are stinging anything that gets into the area. Bobbbo suggests that you figure out a way through the area. He says Bears are their natural enemy. He says that if you suceed, he will share some of his honey, and if you coat your arrows in it, it will draw the attention of bees in the area, which will themselves rage and sting whoever the arrow hits.

• Moving in the Area adds 5 Stacks of Torment every second and lasts for 10 seconds.

• You can creatively time and chain together condition removal and dodges, or, if you listen to what he says, the bees are deathly afraid of bears. You can just bring a bear out and open up a path to the cage.
• Or, use a Movement skill.

(Continued in next post)

Out of My Top Three Ideas, I would have to say that my Top Idea is still my first idea I posted on This Thread::: Horizontal Progression for Existing Weapon Skills

I feel that I need to Expand on the Idea a little bit, pulling concepts from other Skill expansion ideas. I like to keep my posts only 1 post long (normally), but this one is going to be longer, so, if you can’t do the Long Climb, sit back, rehydrate, and breath some oxygen while you send the Sherpas to scout ahead to find the best path through this Everest of text.

…or use this mystical teleportation device and skip it all (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/3446999). You just left those Sherpas and you didn’t pay them. You also took all the food and oxygen with you…You monster!

HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION and WEAPON SKILLS

• If you don’t want to be fancy, you could also call it Role Diversification.
• Aside from expanding on the Roles that Players can fill with existing weapons, this idea also greatly expands Skill and build diversification, without infringing upon the flavor of any particular weapon or laying a single finger on the Trait system.
• This Idea can also encourage players to get out there into the world to find these mythical (some not so) traveling Skill masters.

How would it work?

• Use the current system of Changing Utility skills on the fly out of Combat, we Click on the little bar at the top of the utility/healing/elite skill and a menu comes up that lets us pick different skills. Put that system on weapon skills.
• You should also be able to change your weapon skills in the Hero Panel, under the skills tab, so that way you can plan out your build without having to have that weapon equipped at the time. It will also help out professions with multiple skills in the same slot such as Elementalists.
• Weapon Kits should be allowed to change skills as well, so that way Engineers aren’t left out.
• You can buy these new skills for an expensive 100 skill points, or you can go out into the world to find the Weapon Masters to learn from the source.

The Weapon Masters

• These are the NPC’s that teach you the new skill.
• While some could be in major cities, most of them will be out there in the world, honing their skills further. They are happy to take on a Student, but only if you could find them.
• Some could be out in an open field, taking joy in fighting whatever is there. Others could be reclusive hermits, hiding in the darkest tombs and ruins.
• When you Speak to this NPC, he offers you a challenge, that if you can complete, he will teach you a new variant on an existing weapon skill.
• While some of these events can be completed in a group (after all, MMO’s are about players playing together, and helping other players), many of them can be tailored to an individual player (see my example)
• These new Skill challenges can be related to completing a portion of a Jumping Puzzle, or a new Puzzle entirely, or they can be related to using combat skills.
• After completing the Challenge, the Master Skill Trainer will teach you the Skill for free. BUT, what if you can’t complete the challenge, or you are impatient? I also suggest that you get to buy them, for the nice pretty price of 100 Skill Points! That should eat into your supply a little. This way, it is always easier to just figure out the challenge than it is to buy the Skill point.
• Each Master teaches One Skill per Profession for a Total of 8 possible skills you can learn from them. (The nature of the Challenge can and should change based on profession, so a stealthing challenge can still be completed by a class that doesn’t have access to it.)
• For all my Examples, I use the Ranger, and Ranger only for the specific challenges and solutions.

(Continued in next post)

Torvic.8256:

The sudden planetwide emergence of the Quaggan Empire?

So long as next year we get to see the Return of the Mursaat!

daimasei.4091:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

2014 is going to be an amazing year for GW2 and the community!

Chris

You shouldn’t say anything like this.

You guys made the manifesto, a lots of idiots (like myself) bought it and then you said it was false and not to be take it seriously.

Since when has advertising ever been truthful? Seriously, Why is there a GW2 advertisment on other websites that shows animated art of a person with a Cape, but there is no capes in the game. Gods, The nerve Anet has to lie to us……

(This is sarcasm, so you’ll know. Don’t take it (too) seriously)

That makes too much sense.

adubb.2453:

Earendil Starsailor.4675:

Donari.5237:

I’m not sure how I feel about mix and match, other than wanting it to be equal, none of this “heavy gets it all” stuff.

However, given the mesh issues, a solution would be to design skins that look like other weights but are designated for specific ones. We’ve seen that can be done with dragon bash helms, grenth hoods, and so on. The Aether light chest on men looks like a heavy vest.

That fits right in with all our requests for more and more and more skins.

That would be an easy way to address to at least partly address this. If some of the new skins were universal, like the dragon bash helms you mentioned. The game is invested in the three armor classes. The question is: did the developers make that investment just for the armor’s defense rating or for that as well as aesthetics?

Isaiah actually replied to my original post about mixing and matching armor sets and giving you a choice between types of armor for all classes. First of all, without a major rework of how armor is rendered, you quite literally can’t mix and match armor types. It simply doesn’t work. Secondly, he mentioned that giving all classes the ability to switch between all armor types runs the risk of diluting the purpose of having separate classes altogether.

Compromise
What if the choice was purely aesthetic? No stat buffs whatsoever, you could just wear whatever the heck you wanted to, as long as all your armor pieces were the same type.

Or Perhaps….
What if the bonuses were kept to a minimum? Or perhaps the pros/cons of each armor set were specific to each class. For example, a Guardian wearing heavy armor gets the best boost to armor, wearing Medium armor gives a 5% boost to movement speed but 5% less armor, and wearing Light armor increases healing power by 5% and movement speed by 5% but has 10% less armor then Heavy. And it could be different for every class. Instead of specific stats it could be certain class specific boosts. This would still keep each class distinct, but also opening up even more build flexibility and aesthetic choice.

It would have to be different for every class, because its not just the armor that keeps every class different. Every class has different Hp values as well, which I am guessing were balanced against (probably the warrior) and all the possible abilities, healing, and damage that each class has access to. Pretty much everything about a given class has to be kept in mind when giving them different armor types so it would stay balanced, and not for example, make a Necromancer in Heavy Armor freaking near impossible to kill and keep all his damage amount the same.

Personally, I don’t see the point in forcing different classes to wear different armor types. It seems like more of a vestigial remaint of earlier MMO’s (and further back into early RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons) where every class had a specific Archtype that related to defense, dps, or healing. Since any class can fill any role in this game, different armor types are pointless.

There are some things that would have to be addressed though. For one thing, everyone’s possible armor sets just got tripled, which is good, but it can be bad. In Dungeons for example, you would have a dungeon group requiring Rangers to wear Heavy Armor so they can last longer in melee and make their support skills more useful. But, every Ranger has a set of Medium armor, why should they be required to buy two whole new sets of armor just to please a bunch of Dungeon runners?

All professions All armor sets

Blah Blah Blah

You guys need to consider that visually, Medium armor doesn’t exactly mix very well with Light or Heavy armor (I blame the Trench Coats). All of them also sit differently on a character’s body to where they all overlap/underlap, and just plain look bad together. Way back before it was updated, you could preview any armor piece together with others, and it looked pretty bad in some cases.

draxynnic.3719:

…..Ultra Sacred Vertical/ Horizontal Combination Snip!!! (Diagonal Snip)…..

Your post also comes with the assumption that I didn’t try a different build other than the one with alot of Control skills in it. I’ve said in this Thread about how I have 6 full Exotic Armor sets (I’ve made it a point in alot more than one post here. Yes, some people have twice as much, and many people only had a single magic find set until a few months ago and nothing else). Its about as obvious as gravity that I play with different builds and try different builds, so, it should be just as obvious that I have tried other builds that don’t have much control. It should also be kind of obvious that since I use a Greatsword in that build example I gave to you, that I make heavy use of that 1 second evade that the auto attack gives us every 1.75 sec. There’s also the dodges, and the movement, etc. You’d have to be crazy to just stick to Control and use that as your only tool in a fight (or dps, or support, or healing, or kiting, etc). My disagreement with you is that I don’t think its as weak as you say, and the fact that I still play a build with alot of control skills should say something, regardless of the half of the player population that uses only Zerker Gear(formerly magic find gear) and refuses to even try anything else. Not refering to you specifically with that last sentence, but you really should stop refusing to accept that some people play the game differently, and just accept it already.

Orpheal.8263:

Mega Giga Tetra Snip!!!

(also, other people that’s been talking about the subclass and trait system stuff)

The only thing really wrong with the Trait system is that your stats are tied to specific sections, even when the traits in those sections aren’t actually related to those traits in any way (example : Ranger Trap traits in Skirmishing. Traps are all condition damage and conditions. Skirmishing is Precision and Critical damage)

Conski Deshan.2057:

….Super Mega Ultra Hyper Puffy Cut of Doooooom….

Let me ask you my original question. I reworded it a bit to be relevant to the current conversation. How is housing going to show off your progress to other players (not just yourself and friends) if it is instanced and 99.999% of all players will never see it or care about it (atleast everyone can see if you have a legendary or other skin)?

What you and others haven’t addressed yet is how a house is going to show everyone your progress in the game? Legendaries and other skins do that already. You can be lazy and say “add a new Title”, but, there’s got to be something more there than just a title.

Shriketalon.1937:

….Ultra Powerful Awesome Combo Sweep Snip of Awesomness!

Last question before I go and enjoy my holiday as well like everyone else is doing. Why is crafting different stat combinations as an endgame goal a bad thing? There’s Progression in that, and it is one of the many ways I’ve been playing through the endgame since a week after launch.

I’ve made 6 armor sets, and currently, I am working on a set of Shaman’s Armor. I am going to combine that with Settler’s Trinkets and see how that works on my character.

edit : and its not like that’s going to be a very effective armor set. It might not be. I just want to see what it does!

Why should that progression be eliminated for the sake of convenience for other players who probably wouldn’t have bothered to try that stat combination because they didn’t feel like spending the time or gold to get it? Why should my hard work in obtaining different Armor sets be eliminated for a player who spent the last year using only Berserker’s stats, and then suddenly he gets access to everything for no work?

Ronah.2869:

…Ultra Hyper Mega Super Duper Uber Snip!!!!!….

It was the fact that you just assumed that Anet doesn’t read this thread. They have been. They haven’t individually replied to everything, but, your comment assuming if they read the thread or not,…it wasn’t the first in this Thread, (and unfortunately wont be the last)

Yuri.5810:

2)Because they are something required if i want to pair some stat with a specific look. In a game where cosmetics are a good part of the endgame imho are a bad thing. Just my opinion, i’m not forcing it on anybody. To me they are like an item i have to buy to unlock the final stage of a game.

Again, required, or you just don’t want to spend the 14 gold currently required for 200 gems to buy 5 transmutation crystals?

Yuri.5810:

4)Again, they are not a bad thing themselves. They become a bad thing when in 16 months we had quite a few new armor sets and none of them can be obtained playing. The only new complete set that we can obtain playing is the ascended one.
The Ascended Armors to me are quite flat, while the one in the gem shops have little particle effects in some details. As far as i know, quite a few people agree with me about that.
The most negative people think that it’s a way to make you spend a lot to craft them and then spend some more to transmute them.

Someone else said that they want to expand the cash shop, in a way, because it will get players to spend even more money.

….here it is :::

Including, in my case at least, by referencing the cosmetics system in another game that also financially survives largely based on it’s in game cash store (which cosmetics make up a large part of). By having a working and well implemented cosmetics system, you’re actually encouraging everyone to spend more time and money (both in game and real world) on anything in the game that makes use of it.

Yuri.5810:

5)No, that is not the reason they are rare and exclusive. The massive farm behind them to get the T6 and the precursor (or the money to buy those items) is the thing that make them “rare and exclusive”. They were designed to be a long term skin goal in the first place, then they should have been “on par with the BiS item”, now they are the BiS item. There is not a single weapon that is on par with them, because they are each and every Ascended weapon of that kind stat-wise.
Back when exotics were the BiS, Legendaries were what they were meant to be and people still tried to get them first. Now they are not.

Shriketalon.1937:

Legendary weapons are not special.

They are a cosmetic item for the player to show off, nothing more. They do not deserve special treatment. Their owners are not a higher class of citizen with more rights and privileges. What makes them rare and exclusive is the obscene amount of money (and only money if you use the TP) required to obtain the item, and the unique aura, footprint, or skill effects that come with them.

Everyone would benefit from the ability to “absorb” stat combinations onto ascended gear. The only exception would be someone who has a legendary for every single usable weapon for every single one of their characters, and quite frankly, and even they would benefit from the swapping on armor and trinkets.

Legendary Weapons are special to the people who spent hundreds more hours than us to get them. And they also cost more than it would cost to just buy every possible stat combination with Ascended weapons. It eats up alot of inventory space, but, it doesn’t make you any worse of a player because you have 15 weapons to their one. At that point, again, asking for switchable stats is just a matter of convenience than progression.

And it sounds like the point I made way, way, back a post or two ago was just proved with your comments. Legendary weapons, even though not everyone has them, it is obviously affecting just about every player in the game, their attitude towards it, etc. Housing isn’t going to have that effect on anyone other than the one player who built the house, and his friends.

edit : Totlly done with replying to 5 people until everyone lists their top 3’s, they are kind of getting buried in these posts.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Firstly how would order missions effect all players? , as many may want to ignore them and have nothing to do with them.

The same way that Legendary Weapons affect all players in the game. If a Player has a Legendary weapon, they will probably be showing it off in Lion’s Arch and anywhere else they play the game. As Legendary weapons are updated, player opinion has changed quite a bit on it over time.

Other Players can see this type of progress on other players. People who get special, exclusive, New, Order Armors and weapons will also be showing them off, and players opinions about it will change over time. Living World updates are the same.

With a House, that has a 99.9999% chance of being instanced if ever implemented, no other player except for you and your friends will ever see that house. Even if a public option is made, there are hundreds of thousands of players that would hit the private switch so no one can ever see the house.

That Progress is only for you, and for your friends to see. Using your quote from below, how is a player going to make themselves different and exclusive from other players if the other players will never see or care about your ‘exclusive’ home?

Conski Deshan.2057:

Secondly if your progress is for all players it’s not progress it’s a requirement. Horizontal progression is about differentiation of your players and that means exclusion, some people won’t do x some can’t do y but will do z that’s what makes them different.

How so? Do you feel obligated to do every single Living World Achievement right now, even though they are waved around infront of your face every two weeks? Do you feel obligated to spend 2000+ gold on a legendary because of the ability to switch stats, or are you just going to spend 1/40th of that on an ascended weapon, then buy another one with different stats as you need them.

draxynnic.3719:

Chrispy.5641:

draxynnic.3719:

To put this in context, in GW1 I was fairly control-happy – I used to comment that even when I wasn’t playing a mesmer, I thought like a mesmer. So if I’ve come to just stop bothering to bring most forms of control, what do you think the people who have always advocated that the best control is killing the target ASAP are doing?

I want to bring you to this paragraph. Its a very interesting paragraph, and tells us everything that is wrong with Guild Wars 2 right now, or atleast the combat design. Currently, the entire game is built around dealing as much DPS as is possible in the game.

This is my entire point. You seem to like stating arguments that imply that your opponent is somehow deficient, such as “you rely too much on DPS” – it’s not that I or anyone else relies too much on DPS. We rely on DPS exactly as much as is optimal for the game as it currently stands – which is “all of it”, since the other legs of the “soft trinity”, by and large, aren’t viable to use. (The “support” side has some good skills, but only in some professions, and control… well, we’re having that discussion…)

…and you haven’t been somehow implying that I’m deficient because I use alot of control in my builds? That’s been half of your argument so far to me. The other half is that you don’t use control because its not effective enough when its becoming increasingly obvious that you haven’t even tried a control heavy build. It works great in WvW, PvP, running around in PvE (and no, immobilize does not get in the way of my other control effects when fighting champions, another thing that you were all but assuming earlier). It needs some help in larger group events and way deep into the Fractals, but that in no way means that Control is a broken mechanic, or even a weak mechanic. People just choose not to use it.

Yuri.5810:

I’m not qualified to tell you if it’s easy or not, and honestly it’s not the point of the discussion. You’ve pointed out some concerns, i’ve adressed them in the way i think they should be adressed.

Just answering to someone who talked about what a “Super Easy Fix” It was.

Yuri.5810:

1) Because AN said that they don’t want us to farm and are actively trying to prevent us from farming. There are all the activities that you want and no endless repetition (aka farming) is needed. Do each dungeon every day, fractals, DEs, WvsW or sPvP. Plenty of things to do in this game, the point is if you enjoy playing the game without getting a shiny back.

Tried to get rid of farming, but failed as bad as that word’s definition will allow with the release of Ascended weapons, and then did the same thing with the release of ascended Armor. (Not that it was a bad thing, it just did nothing to help out the current farming trends in the game).

(continued on next post)

draxynnic.3719:

To put this in context, in GW1 I was fairly control-happy – I used to comment that even when I wasn’t playing a mesmer, I thought like a mesmer. So if I’ve come to just stop bothering to bring most forms of control, what do you think the people who have always advocated that the best control is killing the target ASAP are doing?

I want to bring you to this paragraph. Its a very interesting paragraph, and tells us everything that is wrong with Guild Wars 2 right now, or atleast the combat design. Currently, the entire game is built around dealing as much DPS as is possible in the game.

Well…There’s your problem (and the problem for most players)…..You rely too much on DPS. I bet that if Anet starts introducing bosses where you are Required to remove stacks of defiant in order to damage it (for 30 sec the defiant comes back or whatever), we’ll hear no end to the complaining because everyone just wants to deal brainless damage, assuming the game is no deeper than DPS and dodging. Thank you for proving another point I’ve been wanting to make for months now.

Yuri.5810:

Chrispy.5641:

…negatives…

Super Easy Fix: Just change every item so that we can remove the stats and transform it in a skin (add the option in the rightclick menu with a pop up to confirm the command).
Skins will works like tokens.
The locker will work like a storage tab for skins.
You can have max 250 skins of the same type in each tab.
Once you apply a skin to an object it will become account bound.
Removing the skin will unbound the item.

Now stats and looks are splitted and everybody is happy.

Add in milestones to mark your progress in collecting every skin in the game.
Add titles for each milestone.

About Transmutation consumables becoming obsolete: the end-game is cosmetic for the most part (now we have ascended, and Legendary weapons being able to switch stats became the new BiS item so it’s not 100% cosmetic).
Putting stats on weapons and armors+ transmutation consumables= bad design + goldsink/moneysink.
Imho linking stats and look is a terrible idea. Making the customer pay to go around that in a game as GW2 is worse.
Giving the customer the option to pay for that with ingame gold doesn’t change that, it just promotes farming.

Its not that easy of a fix though. There are tens of thousands of items in the game, and there is no “Change all to X” Switch, where you can magically make it to where you right click on an item with stats, and choose “Convert to Skin”. The amount of programming it would require would fill several living world updates I bet.

The other thing I want to address is these things::
(1) Why is Farming a bad thing? People already do it for months at a time in order to get materials necessary for Legendaries, gold necessary for certain items. Its basically the endgame right now as well. There is not enough other activities for someone to play the game without farming in some way in the game’s current form.
(2) Why are Transmutation Crystals a bad thing? If your answer is that you don’t feel like spending gold to change your character’s look, its a bad answer, because, what the heck else are you going to spend gold on, if not to change your look at in the endgame?
(3) Why are Gold/Moneysinks a bad thing? It keeps ingame inflation down, and has kept the prices of items relatively stable for well over a year now. If you suddenly remove one of the larger goldsinks in the game, inflation goes up, which will devalue most items, anyways.
(4) Referring to the above two, why are Microtransactions a bad thing? Its kind of one of the ways Anet makes money right now.
(5) Currently Legendaries being able to Switch stats is what makes them so rare and exclusive items. It is currently beyond Endgame. It is the the end of the endgame. Are you really trying to suggest that we stomp all over Legendaries and allow anyone to do that from the start (and no, I don’t own a legendary)

draxynnic.3719:

Chrispy.5641:

draxynnic.3719:

….snippety snip….

Uh….what?

Dude, you need to seperate what I mean when I say Locked down. That’s a completely different thing from ‘Stunlock’

Ranger can have 6 Stuns/Dazes/Fears in one build, and 3 immobilizes, plus they can still keep a DPS heavy build while doing it. Are you telling me that poor ol’ me can’t keep a champion locked down and not dealing damage to me with all that while I kill it? I got news for ya, I’ve done it, dozens, maybe hundreds of times.

(Greatsword #5, Shortbow #5, Hyena x2, Wolf Knockdown attack, Wolf F2.)
(Mudy Terrain, Earth Spirit, Entangle)

If a champion doesn’t have charge skills or a difficult-to-dodge ranged attack, it can be soloed without a single Defiant-affected skill. Your one or two CC skills in your entire lineup that are getting through Unshakeable is not doing much after immobilisations, kiting, snares, dodges, and well-timed pet switches (I’d mention stealth, since I generally use longbow for soloing champions on the ranger, but you’re using a different build). You’d probably kill it more efficiently if you didn’t have a build based so heavily on something it has the next best thing to immunity to.

I’ve soloed champions with every profession, and apart from the first hit before the Defiant stacks go up, i just don’t bother using Defiant-blocked skills unless the skill gives me something else that makes it actually worth activating, and in those situations any stuns/dazes/etc I DO get are simply an added bonus. For most champion soloers, your proposal would not do anything to slow them down – all it would do is take the leg of the “soft trinity” that is usually accepted as being by far the weakest and nerf it even further into the ground.

Yeah, lets re-examine what I said….(Add Stack of Extreme Defiance to Veterans Not for Hard Mode, but a Harder Mode than Hard Mode)….So, uh, if you have solo’d everything and the defiance didn’t even come into play because you were able to play just fine without every having to interrupt the Champion….what’s your complaint again?

videoboy.4162:

Chrispy.5641:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Well, firstly, since there isn’t a definite way yet as to how the wardrobe system would work, how can anyone answer beyond reasonable doubt.

Then I’m not convinced, I don’t see how a Skin locker will positively affect me in any way.

That was a nice, slightly more heated discussion than normal. We should do that more often instead of just saying what we want with one word and not ever explaining the how or why.

It’s actually been explained numerous times in this very thread (not to mention some of the other CDIs). If you don’t like it, you don’t like it, but there’s really no reason to knock on the wants of others or pretend you don’t understand how it fits into this thread.

Numerous times, a Skin Locker has been discussed, and every time it has involved convenience. In fact, the very first post in the thread that talks about a skin locker (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/3406159) asks for it for convenience.

…Why not ask for it for these reasons?
(1) – Collecting Skins is no different than collecting minipets, which already offer a form of Horizontal Progression in the form of a Title for collecting every minipet in a given set. (Some people got close to saying this and only this,and then kind of went in the oppoiste direction.)

(2) – Anet could even make a unique Armor Skin / Weapon Skin that we can get rewarded with after Collecting a certain number of Skins in the game (Except Living World Skins), encouraging players to actually use this new feature if it gets put in the game. Especially since there is probably well over a thousand unique pieces in the game, thats alot of collecting. There could be rewards for collecting every skin in the game.

(3) – (not Horizontal) – People Like Collecting unique stuff, even in games, and collecting armor skins takes up ALOT of bank/Inventory space (To collect them all would eat up well in excess of a thousand slots). Having a seperate collectible tab for Skins would free up alot of space.

(4) – (Negative) – Transmutation stuff would be obsolete. People would only ever need 1 skin, so the prices of every single item in the game would drop, even very rare skins (even craftable skins) like the Wings of Dwayna. The game’s Economy would grind to a halt, and the effect would be far worse than anything the Ascended updates have done to the economy.

(5) – (Negative) – Because of #4, everyone will only buy equipment for the stats, which means that the only thing in the economy that doesn’t change would be those items. All items used to craft very rare and exclusive items would drop.

(6) – (Negative) – People would be allowed to craft only one very rare item under this system (Such as infinite Light), then just deposit it in the skin locker, then pull out 2, BAM, he just created 2 Infinite lights for the price of one, making his life automatically easier than the thousands of players before him that had to spend the time and money to craft 2. Just like #4, people would only ever need 1 instead of the number they actually should of bought in the current game.

No one could give a write up on it like that? Why? I’m not trying to Troll you guys, I am asking if you actually put any thought into the negatives of putting a sytem like that in the game? That sounded a bit like it was lacking respect so I asked how it would fit into Horizontal Progression and the best answer I got was (Collecting something is Progression,….right?)

…..right….no other reason?

Don’t get mad either because I disagree with you. People already in this thread disagreed with me on my weapon skills and hardmode idea, and I explained every single complaint to them as well as I could, so, you are welcome to do the same (Still explaining to one person over an idea I had for hard mode). There’s three very legit complaints right here, what’s the solution?

TheDaiBish.9735:

Well, firstly, since there isn’t a definite way yet as to how the wardrobe system would work, how can anyone answer beyond reasonable doubt.

Then I’m not convinced, I don’t see how a Skin locker will positively affect me in any way.

That was a nice, slightly more heated discussion than normal. We should do that more often instead of just saying what we want with one word and not ever explaining the how or why.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

to build up on that idea of instanced home instances in the world

• homes (like caves) can also be built as mini-dungeons, as mini jumping puzzles or mini-puzzles or even races (like the guild-sprint).
• while players progress in that housing system they unlock new enemies. New platforms to jump on or new animals you can play as in race-like activities.

Example:
Player X has unlocked a troll champion, he can put it into the instance. Each champion goes with a big chest, but these instances can only be visited by a 5man group max.

Player Y chose the path of the jumping puzzle. He hasn’t unlocked an champion of any enemy-type, but he has unlocked a few traps and platforms for a small jumping puzzle.

Player Z has unlocked both, veterans and platforms. He can create a really challenging jumping puzzle with enemies alongside it. Enemies can only be set in a limited number and on certain places, so that the puzzle can’t be too hard. Player Z has also decided to build his home at the end of the JP. Of course he knows a shortcut to this location.

At that point it kind of becomes less house, more Littlebigplanet (still cool, but still…..).

TheDaiBish.9735:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Skin Locker

If you only had one unlocked when you log in, then by the end of your play session you have 3, then you’ve progressed, so to speak.

What I’d like to see when this happens: Milestones. It probably takes forever to complete a collection, so I’d give players certain rewards for completing milestones.

This way progression doesn’t feel endless (like it does now for Legendaries – at least to me personally).

And the title for when you unlock everything would be ‘Got Nothing To Wear’. :P

Chrispy.5641:

How is Vanity going to benefit/affect ALL the Players in the game when its released? half of the community wants housing, and the other half doesn’t care about it, and wants nothing to do with it.

How do you get past that? Not a single person on this thread has been able to get past that issue.

Well, the question I was responding to was how do these systems relate to HP. That’s what my answers were based on. Not how they affect other people.

Housing, personally, I don’t care about.

A wardrobe system is incredibly beneficial to most players though.

Even if a player doesn’t use it now because they have one look and they stick with that one look, in the future another set of armour / weapons may come out that they may like, and so they’ll want to keep them.

Then 1) why did you even try to explain how housing would work if you don’t want to discuss it?

and 2), If you mean all the Living World Skins, and the Gem Store Skins, so that way we don’t have to waste bank space, then I fully support it. If you mean some cheap, easily obtainable karma or crafted armor, I do not support.

I have 6 Armor sets for one of my characters (Berserker, Cleric, Magi, Rampager, Soldier, Rabid, + some Celestial and Apothecary), All have a different look. How is a Skin locker going to benefit me, if all my bank space is wasted anyways? Why should I be punished with zero bank space because I actually diversify my builds when every other player only wears Beserker’s armor and refuses to diversify? What actual benefit will any player see from being able to change their look on the fly, Other than Vanity? (These are questions that you need to answer beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise, there will be plenty of nonbelievers. Not just me)

videoboy.4162:

Chrispy.5641:

videoboy.4162:

@Chrispy
Your idea is a very good one. I like it very much, it just isn’t in my personal Top 3.

Skin Locker and Housing, although, no one’s been able to explain very well how that’s related to Horizontal Progression in any way. Once someone makes a post that explains it then I’ll be a believer, but until then, its Weapon skills and Order/Faction Missions/Reputation. (This comment isn’t directed at you specifically, I just don’t see the point yet in either a skin locker or housing)

What, specifically, confuses you about it? Maybe I can help clear things up.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Chrispy.5641:

Skin Locker and Housing, although, no one’s been able to explain very well how that’s related to Horizontal Progression in any way.

It’s kind of like a record, if you will.

Skin Locker

If you only had one unlocked when you log in, then by the end of your play session you have 3, then you’ve progressed, so to speak.

Housing

You start with a plain house.

You go punch something / someone in the face, wreck it’s day, and you get an achievement for it. As well as the achievement, you get one of it’s teeth to put on display in your house. It’s basically a more visual form of titles.

Rather than an actual progression system, they’re tools and groundwork to help show progression made on the cosmetic side of things, and can easily be added to in the future.

---

How is Vanity going to benefit/affect ALL the Players in the game when its released? half of the community wants housing, and the other half doesn’t care about it, and wants nothing to do with it.

Some suggestions that have things like order quests are things that all players can take part in, and progress in, and not only that, it leads to an actual reward that you can always show off at all times. Even if players decide to want nothing to do with Order quests because its optional, they will see other players actively taking part in it, and actively getting rewards that they can show off anywhere in the game they go.

You can’t show off your house except to people you know due to the instanced nature of the game, and less than 1% of 1% of 1% of the players in the game will ever set foot in your place. If you get a Title, or a cool new weapon skin, or new skill to show off as a result of Order or Faction stuff, many, many more players will see it. Every player you run in to in the world will see the effect of you getting new weapon skills, and will make the call for themselves whether its more effective and should bother to find them, or if they should just stick with what they got. You can’t do that with a house that only ever going to be Visual, and not only that, but like I said, almost no one will ever see it.

How do you get past that? Not a single person on this thread has been able to get past that issue.

videoboy.4162:

@Chrispy
Your idea is a very good one. I like it very much, it just isn’t in my personal Top 3.

Skin Locker and Housing, although, no one’s been able to explain very well how that’s related to Horizontal Progression in any way. Once someone makes a post that explains it then I’ll be a believer, but until then, its Weapon skills and Order/Faction Missions/Reputation. (This comment isn’t directed at you specifically, I just don’t see the point yet in either a skin locker or housing)

Chrispy.5641:

Dang, weapon skills are pulling ahead of everything else in this thread. I hope its relatively cheap(er than other features) to implement.

videoboy.4162:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

this is one of my biggest fears, people want more of the same… Anet already works on new weapons/armors and skill… shouldn’t here be more discussion about new ideas? If Anet thinks that the lack of new skills, weapons and armors is our biggest flaw, then I’d see a boring GW2 future.

Imho the reason why people don’t go to zones needs to be adressed in the first place. What good are new skills if you find no interesting reason to go out there (except WvW) and use it?

Well, ANet has said many times that they have different things, for different teams to work on. So, if more weapons were added to the classes, it probably wouldn’t take away from another team working on Zones and such.

Well, first thing you need to realize is that through this entire Thread, I have never talked about New Weapons, only New Weapon Skills for Existing Weapons. I’ve been using the same five skills on my shortbow for over a year. Having the ability to switch out Quick Shot for a similar attack with a different effect (like Stealth Shot) would inject alot of life into the current system (which is very quickly becoming more stale by the day). That is just as big of a problem as the lack of players in some areas of the game.

Many players have already fleshed out some nice systems for how we can expand skills on our weapons. (If you want to read my Idea, here it is :: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/3413290)

That idea not only expands the skills for existing weapons, but also gets players back out into existing zones to find new skill trainers, entirely new skill challenges (possibly do new event chains), and buying new skills in a slightly more meaningful way than just outright buying them with (1-3-5-25-50-100+) skillpoints, which is the current system of unlocking our skills.

I’m not sure how you could say that’s “More of the Same” (Please, Enlighten me)

Drakenvold.9761:

yup,also the Order missions and reputation needs to be new content,nothing game changing or out of what it already exists in game but if i have to repeat DE or kill the already existing bosses its a grind,it can be implemented with new dialogue,new things to do,actual mission and order related stuff

Order/Faction Missions is currently #2 on AlanaTheStrange’s list. (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/3431340)

Dang, weapon skills are pulling ahead of everything else in this thread. I hope its relatively cheap(er than other features) to implement.

Laurelinde.4395:

I have not had the chance to read the entire thread
….snip, cut, slash, gash, stab, etc….

thank you for proving a point I made earlier in this thread.