Yes, profession forums QQ a lot about their own personal gripes, but take a step back and you’ll see that there are some major problems, particularly from a raiding perspective.
For raiding, they eliminated revenants, necros (well, at least from most fights), and thieves from competitive raiding groups. They added no builds or classes to that group.
To be fair, Boonshare Mesmers and Revenants were an absolute plague in WvW, and directly impacted other classes who couldn’t provide as much boons as them by not being allowed a spot on the meta.
The SoI changes are totally acceptable in my book, I’m finally hoping my mesmer will not be pigeonholed into Boonsharing
Maybe, but because they couldn’t split that balance between WvW and PvE, the way they did this balance patch, it took away any reason at all for a raid to take a revenant and possibly even a chrono.
I get that WvW needed to have this addressed, but they stole from Peter to pay Paul in a bad way.
@ Jorus: It doesn’t really matter how thief compares to engi. You’re missing the entire original point to nit pick.
I’m still not sold on condi.
– The direct DPS buffs are very minor for condi.
– Having condi over power still doesn’t really benefit outside of VG.
– Groups will still take necros over engis for certain fights because of epi.
– Groups with epi will likely get their burning from condi PS wars.
Power Engi may be a bit more decent and will at least stay viable, but before any engi build can return to meta, you have to have a good answer to the question:
Why would you ever bring an engi instead of another ele?
well,lets wait for new meta………
Same as the last, but you just fill in the gaping holes from losing rev and necro with eles. Possible replace some thieves with eles since the quickness nerf hits them hard and bringing 2 chronos means the alacrity benefits eles more.
But I’d love to be wrong on that. =/
I really feel sorry for anyone who mained a rev and enjoyed raiding.
I mean, some other classes got hit, but at least necros will still be useful for certain boss fights.
Biggest change for raids: With the nerf to quickness, you’ll probably just want to go back to ele stacking instead of thieves.
And there’s no way this will make condi thief competitive. =P
i am pretty happy with what we got considering i am a mainly a PvE engi player
Why? There’s no way those minor buffs to the physical damage of a condi kit will make enough of a difference to change the fact that engis are still outclassed by other DPS classes in PvE with no distinct advantage to make them worth taking.
Sure, you can still get by if you’re a good player just like before, but you’ll still perform worse than a thief spamming auto attack. =/
Naw, we slightly outclass a thief spamming 1. Now toss in some well timed dodges/2’s onto that thief and then we are outclassed.
Well, yes, assuming they dodge every once in a while to keep endurance from capping, of course.
I think you have to get some bounding dodger and well aimed weakening charges to beat us. We actually do better on our Power build than what you see listed on the Golem because Takedown round will proc past 50% on most bosses thanks to adds. And, Condi is pretty kitten solid especially with the likely meta change to have perma Alacrity.
Any buff to alacrity will help eles just as much and they still outperform engis.
i am pretty happy with what we got considering i am a mainly a PvE engi player
Why? There’s no way those minor buffs to the physical damage of a condi kit will make enough of a difference to change the fact that engis are still outclassed by other DPS classes in PvE with no distinct advantage to make them worth taking.
Sure, you can still get by if you’re a good player just like before, but you’ll still perform worse than a thief spamming auto attack. =/
Naw, we slightly outclass a thief spamming 1. Now toss in some well timed dodges/2’s onto that thief and then we are outclassed.
Well, yes, assuming they dodge every once in a while to keep endurance from capping, of course.
i am pretty happy with what we got considering i am a mainly a PvE engi player
Why? There’s no way those minor buffs to the physical damage of a condi kit will make enough of a difference to change the fact that engis are still outclassed by other DPS classes in PvE with no distinct advantage to make them worth taking.
Sure, you can still get by if you’re a good player just like before, but you’ll still perform worse than a thief spamming auto attack. =/
Yea, the balance patch will have a big effect on whether I start investing in gems again, but my hopes aren’t high.
I’m really hoping that ANet can eventually learn how to balance classes so that certain classes aren’t completely left out of the raid meta as well as to handle just how blatantly inferior some spells/abilities are (looking at you, Necro GS).
Looking at patch notes…and it’s pretty clear my wallet is staying closed.
Rev – Now probably useless in raids.
Engi – Still useless in raids.
There’s still some aspects that I’m not sure I understand all the implications of yet (Ranger), but overall, it looks like build diversity is decreased overall for PvE and there’s still major issues because of how skills perform in PvE vs PvP.
Bleh…
Yea, the balance patch will have a big effect on whether I start investing in gems again, but my hopes aren’t high.
I’m really hoping that ANet can eventually learn how to balance classes so that certain classes aren’t completely left out of the raid meta as well as to handle just how blatantly inferior some spells/abilities are (looking at you, Necro GS).
Been playing WoW lately as a hunter and it made me realize how bad the pet mechanics of Ranger are. WoW’s not perfect either, but here’s what I wish GW2 could also pull off:
1) Make all pets equal DPS. In WoW, the only difference with pet performance is their utility skills. This gives a lot more flexibility in being able to choose a pet companion based on flavor/aesthetics instead of just how well it performs. In a game often called “Fashion Wars”, I’m still floored that you get punished for taking a pet because of how it looks.
2) Pets in WoW are optional for one of the specs. I don’t expect this to ever happen in GW2 since the devs think that a pet is integral to the class, unfortunately, but it would be nice to have this option.
3) One spec allows for 2 pets at once and there’s castable spells that summon temporary pets. I really wish there was more done to the Beastmastery talent line to make it actually feel more like you were a “beast master”. For a class that’s distinguished by it’s reliance on a pet, it also just overall feels like just having 1 beast to ever assist at once that plays such a small role undermines the whole point of having a pet in the first place.
Considering that all pull skills in this game are buggy to the point of being too unreliable, I don’t see any buffs to scorpion wire really being worthwhile.
Glad to hear of balance changes finally coming, but will thieves get changed so that maximizing DPS isn’t based around auto-attacking while wiggling around like a 5 year old that needs to pee?
(Please say that you’re nerfing the hell out of Seaweed Salad)
For 95% of raid groups, guardian is probably a better choice for the group than the raid leader probably realizes. For guilds like qT, DnT, KING, etc., substituting the defensive utility for more DPS makes sense. However, everyone likes to think that their group is as good as the best, which is why defensive utility tends to be underestimated.
It’s actually rather amusing how often group leaders will make decisions with the goal of speed, which actually cause things to take longer. With dungeons, groups will wait forever to get that perfect ascended zerker of a specific profession before blazing through a 5-10 minute dungeon, even if just grabbing someone a bit more noobish instantly only slows down the actual dungeon by a minute or two.
The same thing happens in raids. People will stack glass eles, even if it’s from someone who rerolled to ele just to be ‘meta’ and then suffer wipes to mechanics even when having that same person stick with the guard, necro, etc. that they were familiar with would actually increase the chance of a kill at the expense of a slightly longer fight time.
But to get back to the original question, if you’re with a group led by a wise raid leader, you’ll likely see at least 1 spot wanted for a guard unless that group is at such a high skill level that boss mechanics have become relatively trivial to everyone. And even when a guard isn’t specifically asked for, there’s usually not much reason to not take one unless you just really need something else (PS, chrono, druid, etc.) for the last spots in the group.
For OP, I’d say guard. I actually think that guard has more versatility and utility in raids, even though it sounds counter-intuitive.
Guards have some more unique utility such as spammable protection, aegis, and pulls (great for encounters like KC and Xera). While engi is not bad and is certainly viable, it just doesn’t have as much to stand out and since so much of the DPS comes from kits, it’s hard to really swap in any decent utility without wrecking damage. However, even if utility spots were freed up, most of their utility is redundant and slightly less efficient than what other professions can do.
If you really liked engi, I’d say to go for it since the difference is pretty small, but if you have even the slightest bias towards guard, I’d say to go for guard for sure. You can find a great resource for guardian setup in raids at the link below:
http://qtfy.enjin.com/guardian
Everything else is around the same, But Testing is being done on Power Engineer as it potentially may be competitive Damage.
Testing’s been done. It’s pretty much on par with condi engi, so it’s competitive, but not entirely remarkable.
I’d say that if you need a DPS slot filled and someone prefers to play engi, thief, guard, or ele, there’s not really much reason to ask them to swap to something else, unless it’s related to something boss/group specific (i.e. you need ranged add clearing from staff ele, protection from hammer guard, break bar help from thief, etc.). However, with the exception of add clearing from a staff ele, you probably should try to get the rest of your group to adjust before asking for a swap, such as by asking a rev to pulse prot, telling people to L2BreakBar, and so forth.
This is probably the most even playing field we’ve seen for the DPS role in quite a while and raid leaders need to understand that there’s a limitation to how much improvement you will really get from min/maxing party comp. At a certain point, your group will just perform better by having players stick consistently with the same profession so that they can maximize their own performance, both with ‘rotations’ and fight mechanics.
Yes, after removing the Cleric amulet in attempt to reduce sustain from bunker builds in PvP, I’m sure they’ll replace it with the only amulet that’s even stronger for sustain builds than Cleric. That would totally make sense.
All abilities are useful. Some are just more useful than others.
I.e. All abilities can be useful, but not all abilities can be most useful.
/thread
I think what you meant is “All abilities do something”, that’s very very different from being useful though.
No, they’re all useful. They all have a use. Some uses are just not as important or some do the same use more effectively/efficiently.
All abilities are useful. Some are just more useful than others.
I.e. All abilities can be useful, but not all abilities can be most useful.
/thread
Oh god…friendly fire would be a hilariously aweful idea. I think the only thing funnier than everyone running around on fire from all the passive cleave AoE would be the rage in team chat
Seems relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWVBPgL-iIA
=P
these are wrong and rather manipulative
It’s not internet forums without someone criticizing a thorough, rational, fact-based collection of evidence with an empty accusation of being “wrong” along with absolutely no shred of logic or counter argument.
But in reality, this is the best, most fair, and comprehensive comparison of class DPS relative performance, as it relates to raiding. If anyone genuinely believes otherwise, I’d love to hear why.
Poor Gaile, I’m really sorry to hear this happened to you. You’ve dedicated so many years of your life to being a friendly face towards a community that, while often is friendly, can often be very, very ugly in return. I hope you’re able to get all your items back.
That was one of the earlier iterations of the secondary for RotC. We felt like teams that went for the bell early could get “robbed” of their hard work by not getting the third or fourth bell capture. We wanted the secondary to be about the more your team commits to the bell the more your team gets out of it.
I actually like it this way. I feel like the current implementation is more likely to change a team’s strat and force them to adapt. So if, for example, the enemy team gets the first two bells you’ll have to focus a lot more on preventing them from getting another, even if you’re dominating on holding the main points.
I get that having the last bells as big points for both teams near the end can make it consistently a high-stakes capture, but I’d rather see a map that involves a more diverse and dynamic strategy that only sometimes has a really tense climax than one that always has a big ending at the expense of also having a very predictable strat.
(edited by Dahkeus.8243)
Keep in mind too that what is best for a duel is not necessarily what is best for an actual PvP game. This is why Dash is in the current meta, even though Bound is typically better for duels as D/P.
This is a question for PVP/Balancing team.
What is the difference between Ancestral Grace (1200 range, heal, blast finisher, evade, damage) and Ride the Lightning (1200 range, damage) that one is on 12s CD and the other 40s.
Care to share the wisdom behind it?
Ancestral Grace is a druid skill and is balanced around the rest of the druid.
Ride the Lightning is an ele skill and is balanced around the rest of ele skills.
You can argue against the balance of these classes if you want (and that’s a valid argument right now), but trying to make an apples-to-apples comparison of similar skills across classes never makes sense. Class balance in video games 101.
Hmm, I’d be skeptical to just accept this as a new meta, even if it is a viable build just because Sizer is a very skilled player at S/D, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that S/D is a better fit to the meta than D/P. However, it is a good highlight of how sometimes it’s better to play a build that fits your playstyle strengths can be a better decision than just trying to force yourself into a current meta build.
I will say it’s nice to see Sizer streaming, especially since Sind hasn’t been doing so as much recently.
Also, lol @ him constantly beating that guy who always streams with the title ‘BEST THIEF EU’ in duels.
Thief if fine for 99% of the population’s level of PvP, even if it may not make it in to the top end tourney teams.
It still feels a bit too big, imo, but I’d be ok with it in ranked. As R O C said, it’d be good to attract more people to play in S4.
Not sure what buffs you’re using in your tests, but if it’s all buffs, you’re not doing much better than a PS war.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4v76gq/qt_updated_guides_and_dps_benchmarks_for_all/
Eh, I don’t see any issue with the team names. I do wish there was the ability to leave when the match ended and that the ending screens could be closed though.
I’m guessing the forced stay is to try and nudge the community to playing with groups more. It’s a noble attempt, but I’d be surprised to see this happen.
This just in: Less people play PvP in between seasons.
News at 9.
Mechanics are fine, but I really don’t enjoy the map for much of the same reason why I don’t find WvW very enjoyable. You just spend too much time running around. =/
2 bunker
2 dps
1 fast roamer to run between “home” and “far”open with 3 “far” and 2 “home” then
hold “home” and “far” and
zerg bell when its availableas mention by someone else earlier, the “mid” point is actually much closer than the “home” point. however, the “mid” point does not have fast access to the bell unlike “home” and “far” so holding the sides is better in this map.
I’m not asking for a strat, so I don’t really understand why you quoted my post…
If you genuinely meant to reply to me, try reading what I posted again.
Mechanics are fine, but I really don’t enjoy the map for much of the same reason why I don’t find WvW very enjoyable. You just spend too much time running around. =/
In ANet’s shoes, I’d read this post and be tempted to just remove seaweed salad from the game. It sounds like people are in agreement that there shouldn’t be only a single food that’s best.
Enjoy the powerful bonus and be glad that ANet is ok with leaving it in the game.
I actually am fine with a single ‘best’ food. There’s almost always been a best food and it’s pretty much always been pricey. Seaweed actually has a cheaper alternative from a vendor, so that’s not really a big issue imo.
However, having to spam a ridiculous back and forth movement just to get the benefit from your food is makes seaweed so obnoxious.
Played around with power engi in the raid testing zone using realistic buffs. It’s still clearly behind thief in DPS.
Curious what you got as results. “Clearly behind” makes me think it’s a lot but from what I’ve seen, while it may be behind it’s just by a little bit.
I definitely didn’t practice the rotation enough to min/max everything, but I was hitting 24k. For conditions, I didn’t include immobilize and fear, but added everything else, which may not actually happen, depending on comp. I’m sure this could be beat by someone who’s more efficient at nailing the rotation, but I don’t see it surpassing the benchmarks from thief.
For reference, here’s some recent vids with good benchmarks for staff and D/D thief using all buffs and realistic buffs:
Staff – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXSKqzeR1E4
D/D – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WRkbPr8z6oIf someone can post a vid of power engi hitting ~29k DPS or better with realistic buffs, I’ll reconsider, but especially considering the simplicity of staff DPS, it’s hard to imagine many scenarios where an engi actually outperforms a staff DD in an actual raid fight.
Considering the only real thing to watch out for in the build is not using your toolbelt skills in the middle of a bomb placment, I don’t think you’ll get that much higher. Though I’ll try and test again tonight/tomorrow. IIRC I was getting high ~26-27ks with “realistic” buffs but I wasn’t paying attention to conditions, just tossed them all on.
But, Thief is doing better than I thought, I thought thief was 29k with staff before and taking the nerf would drop but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
qT posted benchmarks on reddit, but there’s still testing going on for power engi.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4v76gq/qt_updated_guides_and_dps_benchmarks_for_all/
From the comments section, I did see a couple people mentioning that they reached 28k with realistic buffs. Seems to confirm that engi is competitive, even if not outright better than thief.
So you’re complaining about the optimal food item because you don’t like using it?
Fixed that for ya.
And yea, it’s largely a QoL request. I’m not saying the sky is falling or that I’ll quit over this. However, it’s unnecessarily arduous and the end result doesn’t contribute to any fulfilling sense of difficulty.
(edited by Dahkeus.8243)
Played around with power engi in the raid testing zone using realistic buffs. It’s still clearly behind thief in DPS.
Curious what you got as results. “Clearly behind” makes me think it’s a lot but from what I’ve seen, while it may be behind it’s just by a little bit.
I definitely didn’t practice the rotation enough to min/max everything, but I was hitting 24k. For conditions, I didn’t include immobilize and fear, but added everything else, which may not actually happen, depending on comp. I’m sure this could be beat by someone who’s more efficient at nailing the rotation, but I don’t see it surpassing the benchmarks from thief.
For reference, here’s some recent vids with good benchmarks for staff and D/D thief using all buffs and realistic buffs:
Staff – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXSKqzeR1E4
D/D – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WRkbPr8z6o
If someone can post a vid of power engi hitting ~29k DPS or better with realistic buffs, I’ll reconsider, but especially considering the simplicity of staff DPS, it’s hard to imagine many scenarios where an engi actually outperforms a staff DD in an actual raid fight.
This actually seems like the first time we’ll see thieves accepted as a serious meta profession for raids. Eles are still best on big raid bosses, but everwhere else, thief seems to out perform them in DPS and with the Basilisk buff, their big contribution to break bars is a perk raid groups appreciate.
In sPvP…a thief will probably still be ok if the player is exceptional at playing that class, but it’s a pretty middle-of-the-pack class and I don’t expect to see many thieves in tournaments, but it is still a bit early to tell since the PvP meta settles more slowly.
In WvW, thieves will probably always have a place. I don’t really mess with that though, personally.
I’m really tired of playing my characters like a 5 year old waiting for the bathroom. Please either nerf this food or just give it a straight 10% damage.
Played around with power engi in the raid testing zone using realistic buffs. It’s still clearly behind thief in DPS.
General consensus for pure dps role seems to be:
IF
boss is large hit box
THEN
Staff Ele
ELSE IF
You can stand behind boss the entire fight
THEN
D/D Thief
ELSE
Staff Daredevil
ENDBut ele still isn’t terrible for normal size bosses. It’s just not as good as thief.
Performance wise, ele is still a solid choice, but from what I’ve heard from ele friends, the new rotation is really clunky and not nearly as enjoyable to play as what it was before.
From the best benchmark DPS videos I’ve seen on YouTube, the new ele rotation seems to be pretty bizarre, but that may just be my impression as a non-ele raider.
How does new staff Thief compare to Power Engi though? IIRC they were pretty close before the staff nerf.
Have a link to a benchmark of a power engi build doing something like that? I’m actually not very familiar with a power engi build doing anything like that.
However, it’s pretty safe to say that you can just take almost 5% DPS off whatever staff numbers you got in the last patch since the vast majority of damage comes from the autoattack that was reduced by 5%.
Doing some quick napkin math, that means I’d estimate the following:
Staff DPS with unrealistic buffs = 35
35 * .95 = 33.25 DPS
Staff DPS with normal boons = 29.2
29.2 * .95 = 27.74
So if you can break those with a power engi build, then theoretically, it would be better, but you’ll also want to consider realistic scenario limitations that could keep thief as higher DPS:
- If engi build requires boss to be stationary for full DPS
- If engi build is slower to back away from and return to melee range
Considering that staff thief loses no DPS to mobile fights due to AA rotation and can leap in and out near instantly with vault, it would be hard to beat with all else equal.
General consensus for pure dps role seems to be:
IF
boss is large hit box
THEN
Staff Ele
ELSE IF
You can stand behind boss the entire fight
THEN
D/D Thief
ELSE
Staff Daredevil
END
But ele still isn’t terrible for normal size bosses. It’s just not as good as thief.
Performance wise, ele is still a solid choice, but from what I’ve heard from ele friends, the new rotation is really clunky and not nearly as enjoyable to play as what it was before.
From the best benchmark DPS videos I’ve seen on YouTube, the new ele rotation seems to be pretty bizarre, but that may just be my impression as a non-ele raider.
It can’t be that hard to balance a game.
Pretty much explains everything you posted. =P
From a PvE raid perspective, seems like an indirect buff since there are fights now where thief beats ele. The sharing of basilisk also makes them more appealing.
tornado is good the problem now is that anet toned down survivability but forgot to balance out the insane damage some professions have, for example what justifies thief not having their 60% damage buff reverted ? the whole point of that change was to make them competitive during bunker meta
now damage is so overwhelming you get instagibbed even with max toughness builds even with protection and 33% damage reduction utility
Maybe you should dodge or not react like a dead cat?
Thief nerfs: selfish use of b venom nerfed to only 1 stun and can possibly be considered a nerf to pulmonary impact, staff AA nerfed damage, all stealth skills have a CD on them now to punish players that miss stealth attacks (only 2 chances per stealth).
What more do you want other than “I should never die to thief ever”? The profession has no team support and can barely sustain itself before having to run away and gank someone else. They have nerfed the right things to encourage more intelligent play for thief.
Yea, and as long as there are condi warriors and scrappers hitting up side points, the usefulness of thieves overall will be very handicapped.
From what I’ve done against Golem
Thief Staff DPS is just shy of Fresh Air Ele.Taking 25Might, Fury and Quickness
With
Empower Allies, Assassins Presence (?), Str and Dis Banner 2x GoTL Spotter and Frost. I got Staff DPS around 1k DPS less. (26.3k vs 27.4k)Also taking into account my Thief as of current doesn’t have any Ascended Armour, so the DPS is a little closer then that.
Not to mention the superior breakbar destruction thief now has due to BV VenomShare baseline. So for VG / Matt (Unless your using Aura Ele) Theif might just be better then ele in terms of damage and usefulness considering that less classes have to take CC instead of something else that might boost damage instead =P.
(Yes I’m trying to push thief into at least one boss, yes I am biased, yes I have both classes)Against a moving target I’m certain Thief DPS will outshine Ele FA due to the nature of static AoEs. Against Staff Ele w/ Large Hitbox. Staff Ele is still better.
Thief is definitely better against vale guardian. Ele vs thief on matthias largely depends on how badly you want to clear ice patches and now much you trust your thief not to accidentally give matthias 150% damage with autoattack (though thief is going to win in DPS because it’s tough to keep matthias still and because shadowstep lets you get more attacks off).
Against xera and sabetha thief is going to give better damage than D/W but the ele will be much better at killing adds so it’s really a matter of what you prefer for your comp.
As you said ele still destroys everything with a large hitbox.
Yea, I actually liked staff thief a lot on Matthias just because of the mobility, but it’s definitely a fight where you may still want an ele or two to help with ice patches.
Here’s my current thoughts on
- VG does seem like a fight that favors thief due to the movement. D/D thief is probably best, but staff may be more forgiving, depending on the tank tactics.
- Gorse will probably always be a fight that favors ele stacking with a necro or two for epi.
- Sabetha seems to be pretty ideal for thief. Staff thief actually works pretty well handling cannons since you can vault onto launch pads at the last second and avoid getting kicked by bandits.
- Sloth is ele territory.
- Matthias is as mentioned above
- KC is ele territory
- Xera seems like a good thief fight
Anyways, that’s my thoughts at this point. I haven’t played thief on most these fights (usually playing chrono) and I don’t play ele, so take what I say as a grain of salt.
“So you have ranger and mesmer suffer in all formats but raiding, and in raids they are pigeonholed and punished far more than similar utility classes like warrior and revenant who do so much more DPS while providing substantial utility.”
I agree 100% Zenith. That’s sadly the problem with the raids, way under-balanced and they make certain classes only good (barely) for only a few things. In trying to not have the “Holy trinity” they are crippling the whole raid experience in what you have to bring to a group.
What’s wrong with a tank, if needed, some heals and ANY DPS? Ah well, its what makes this game different I reckon.We already got a trinity. Chronos can tank, and druids are pigeonholed into healer roles.
The problem is not lack of roles, it’s that some classes utterly dominate those roles and push everybody else to the side.
It’s not just chronos that can tank. Anyone can tank, it’s simply that chronomancers have such low damage that you lose the least from sticking them in that role. It’s not any particular ability that makes chronomancers such popular tanks, it’s their inability to deal competitive damage.
Well, yeah, and in many encounters there is no strict tank so much as a trigger for who gets aggro.
But chronomancers are not just appealing for the tank job because of terrible DPS. Blurred Frenzy is a stupidly low cd evasion, and you’ve got 2 shield blocks on top of signet invulnerability.
More importantly, the chrono can use his meta weapons to effectively tank, whereas most other classes like say revenant would be resorting to the garbage staff or offhand shield, etc.
Nevertheless, you are right in that it just so happens that the two classes with terrible DPS happen to be the classes pigeonholed to tank and healer respectively.
Well, necro seems to be able to tank well using meta weapons and traits for the most part. However, I’m not sure how much the “Rise!” nerf affected this.