Easier said than done.
Balance patches often radically change what role a profession will fit into. It used to be that Guardians were good for nothing but bunkering, which is pretty much opposite from their current state (well, assuming that guardians are still good for anything nowadays…sorry guys).
You’d either have to let people choose whatever they want and just trust that they’re making an intelligent choice on the role their build is actually good for.
On top of that, the number of people for each role isn’t set in stone for a decent comp. You can have two roamers and it’s a rev and a thief, you’ll probably be fine. However, if it’s two thieves, then it’s gg.
And it’s possible that a thief change next patch makes 2 thieves viable. Maybe thieves will get a decent brawler spec, so a D/P roamer and a S/D or Staff brawler is actually a good setup. Stranger things have happened.
And even if you get all that worked out, this function will probably do nothing but just cause confusion and raise the learning curve for new/low tier PvPers who aren’t affected much by team comp. Team comp only really matters when players perform to a builds potential and when there’s some semblance of understanding on rotations. Plus some builds are amazing at low level PvP, but are trash at higher tiers.
My problems with this game:
I bought this account because it was advertised with: Pay once, play as long as you want. But after half a year I feel more and more blackmailed to upgrade to HoT.
Sorry, but I can’t really sympathize for you. You got a year and a half of top tier MMO. If you were playing WoW, you’d have paid around $270 for the subscription alone on top the cost to buy the game and all its expansions.
There are lots of MMOs that you can of course play for much longer without paying for anything, but not with the dev support and level of investment that GW2 has.
At the end of the day, it cost real money to keep an MMO running and updated with content and there’s only so many freeloaders that you can support with people who will buy stuff from the cash shop.
If you honestly feel that your year and a half of GW2 wasn’t worth the $60 you paid for the game…well…good luck finding something else.
I was looking into Swapping SA for Trick to see if DA/Trick/DD would have any Merit. Which would benefit the Thief Hybrid build even more you just lose the utility of Sharing Hard CC and healing,
You lose a massive amount of damage when you drop venom share in a group PvE setting. However, the lead attack change is why you now see quite a few more DA/Tr/DD condi thieves in PvP. It’s a strong build that requires little experience or attention to perform well with.
I heard that slick shoes works like the pre-nerf when overcharged with gadgeteer trait. Not sure if this is intended, but if so, it’s probably still viable for fights like Gorseval. Haven’t tested myself though.
So far, I’m definitely liking the changes.
Skyhammer
This map is the most improved, but I’m still not sure if the swing mechanic of the skyhammer makes enough of a difference since it’s mostly just a quick decap. On one hand, this is a good counter to a team that tries to just bunker down on a point, but it also doesn’t feel as valuable as swing mechanics on other maps. I’m not sure this map is really what it needs to be for it to be ranked, but it’s at least mostly there.
Spirit Rise
I actually had a lot of trouble getting to test this map since no one ever voted for it. However, I can understand why.
This map still isn’t fun.
Spirit Rise is now balanced a LOT better and the timing of the orb spawn makes a huge difference, but after some thinking about the mechanics here, I realized why the CTF element of this map just isn’t enjoyable:
The orb carrier on this map is always slow.
When I reflect to why I enjoyed CTF is other games, I realized that WSG from WoW and Blood Gulch from Halo were some of the best places for this mechanic. I realized that this was because there was a high risk, high reward middle area in these maps where a flag carrier could move quickly at high risk (i.e. running straight through mid in WSG or taking the warthog in Blood Gulch) or they could take the safer approach with a long route.
Spirit Rise needs two things: 1) There needs to have options for which path to carry the orb (fast high risk vs slow low risk). 2) There needs to be some sort of movement speed boost to some degree so that the orb carrier isn’t always some dull, slow turtle.
The first option is probably the toughest to fix since a large part of the issue comes from the small size design of GW2 PvP maps.
The second option, however, would be easier to fix. You could add a 3rd skill to the orb with a leap animation on a long cooldown. To prevent this from always being a good idea, you could add a damage-taken debuff to the carrier when/after using it. This would mean that an orb carrier would not want to use the movement when focused by enemies. At the same time, when not focused, an orb carrier could move faster, forcing an interesting choice from the other team (spend teammates to try and stop or at least slow the orb cap vs focusing on gaining control of points while you have the person advantage in fights).
Foefire
I don’t have as much to say for this map, but I do think that this change was a good one. A lot more cohesive team effort is definitely needed here, even if it does make solo Q games less likely to involve the lord mechanic.
Oh, but this is interesting. Daredevil’s only in there for Lotus Training, isn’kitten I’ll have to cope with losing the third dodge, though I’m a little happy that Trickery’s back on the bar!
and Impairing Daggers and Havoc Mastery.
The impairing daggers will be missed but the Havok Mastery would be replaced with the Lead Attacks which should perform better due to it modifying both Physical and Condi damage by 15%, just have to do further testing to see if it balances out or not.
Yea, feel free to test out the build some more, but I don’t see this variant as being better. I editted my post to add in some of the reasoning for this. Lead Attacks does give you +15% damage, but you lose the 10% condi damage from Lotus dodge and replace the lotus 8s bleed + 6s torment (base duration) with three 4s bleeds, so I’m not seeing it as a really clear winner.
I definitely get where you are coming from, your points are valid, that’s why I posted here to see if this could work or be fine tuned a little more, I was putting the build together before heading to bed and didn’t have time to test in game.
Yea, I don’t mean to discourage it at all. It’s a valid question that’s worth exploring and I’m glad you posted it.
Hopefully in Season 3 Warrior will make his stance. Most Ranked Warriors run a Condi build which I personally don’t like (doesn’t match my gameplay).
I just wish they paid more attention to Shouts and Banners cuz I quite like Shotbow Warrior. Imagine that + a Tempest/Druid…
I’m imagining it…and I see the most boring game ever, lol. Too much bunker.
Then if you want to be good at duels you also have to take Longbow or Sword mainhand(only take sword if you are condi)
1h sword works well for power builds when paired with the right weapons. Final Thrust is still a hard hitting pure power attack and Flaming Flurry also hits hard without any condi damage, even if it’s still not what you’ll usually want to be spending your adrenal on.
Oh, but this is interesting. Daredevil’s only in there for Lotus Training, isn’kitten I’ll have to cope with losing the third dodge, though I’m a little happy that Trickery’s back on the bar!
and Impairing Daggers and Havoc Mastery.
The impairing daggers will be missed but the Havok Mastery would be replaced with the Lead Attacks which should perform better due to it modifying both Physical and Condi damage by 15%, just have to do further testing to see if it balances out or not.
Yea, feel free to test out the build some more, but I don’t see this variant as being better. I editted my post to add in some of the reasoning for this. Lead Attacks does give you +15% damage, but you lose the 10% condi damage from Lotus dodge and replace the lotus 8s bleed + 6s torment (base duration) with three 4s bleeds, so I’m not seeing it as a really clear winner.
Oh, but this is interesting. Daredevil’s only in there for Lotus Training, isn’kitten I’ll have to cope with losing the third dodge, though I’m a little happy that Trickery’s back on the bar!
and Impairing Daggers and Havoc Mastery.
This may be a viable option for people without HoT, but from my testing last night, I found this variant to be a pain in the kitten . Dodging with Uncatchable means that you need to be standing inside the hit box of the target before you dodge, which really cuts down your positional flexibility. The mechanics of the caltrops from this trait also mean that the target needs to be standing on the caltrops themselves for the full 3 seconds to get all the bleeds, so this becomes a bit weaker on moving targets.
Even if this did equal DPS to the Daredevil version, I’d still prefer to go DD since you don’t need to rely on burning death blossom spam when you have quickness and you also don’t take up two weapon slots.
The second of those two points is relevant at least in the Gorseval fight, where you can lock down one of the spirits very effectively with a 1h sword and skill #2.
(edited by Dahkeus.8243)
From my tests, it came out about 1k less. However, I ran with needle trap instead of assassin’s sig since I don’t see what benefit that would bring. I did this right before bed, so it’s possible my rotations weren’t perfect, so anyone else can feel free to double check my results.
Everything yes except for haste which is fine where it is. 60s cooldown for 6s quickness and a stun break is extremely reasonable.
Nah, no thief uses haste because simply put there are better option to fill that utility slot with than a 60s stun real with 6s of quickness. By reducing the CD to 35-40s, you at least give the players some incentive to using choosing skill. Most of the thief utility skills are useless simply because of their cool downs and by slightly reducing some of them, you give the thief SOOOOO MUCH build diversity. I mean when was the last time you saw a thief run venoms? Never. Or smokescreen? Never. You never have that thought of “dang should I give up this skill for this skill?” because so many of the thief skills are useless with their current CD.
Venoms are actually good now and that’s something I never thought I’d say. A condi thief is a mediocre, but viable build in PvP, but in PvE, it’s a very strong raid spec that does well in fights that either need condi damage or fast break bars such as VG and Gorse. The single target DPS is also on par with a perfect rotation condi engi.
As for Smokescreen, it’s been a solid skill to bring for dungeons for a long time. It’s good for projectile defense and also allows for extended group stealth (smokescreen + short bow blast, then refuge later before stealth ends).
Chronos are beasts, but most others don’t seem to be that bad in 1 v 1. Condi classes in general still seem to be the roughest to encounter, even if I run with a ton of condi defense.
I will say, one of the things I like most about war (at least the build I’ve been running since the patch) is that it tears bunker eles apart.
So, I’m gonna nit pick here. Since the last patch, when a match transitions from the waiting period to the match start timer, it not longer resets your position if you were already within the starting area.
Was this intentional?
My beef with this is that it makes the start of the match less obvious. Anyone in the same camp or do people prefer this?
Roll for Initiative – yes.
Blinding Powder – No. (already one of the best skills available)
Smokescreen – Not really. Works well for dungeons and never has really been restricted by cd. Not really good anywhere else, even with a lower cd.
Haste – Not really. It would be good for dungeons when you don’t have a mesmer with a shorter cd, but that’s about it. Still wouldn’t be worth using in PvP due to other better options and raids it would be redundant with a mesmer.
Venoms – No. There are problems with venoms from a PvP perspective, but in PvE, they are strong enough to make us one of the highest condi dps while also bringing the best break bar utility. Condi traits are kinda all over the place though.
One thing I would say also is that warrior takes a hell of a lot more skill than it did back in the hambow and great hammer meta days.
There’s no real solid agreed upon build right now, but most run defense/discipline/berserker.
Personally, this is what I’ve been running lately and while I feel like it works well for a warrior build, I’m not convinced that warriors are really going to be great for the next season, even if they are viable.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQRAsZ3enMdAdhgVhA2dAElilqADpA0ACAvn2W7rVpH04iBA-TJBFgAEnAg69HAeCANHEAA
(amulet is Destroyer’s, but it’s not available on the site yet).
Thief
Core engi takes skill but scrapper is faceroll
^ Agreed with this. I would say that it does take some skill to play mesmer well, even if you can perform well while being a mediocre mesmer.
too early for this
Very true and the wide variety of opinions here kinda confirms this.
However, I don’t see any reason why mesmer won’t be as OP as it was last season, especially for anyone solo queueing.
lol im pretty sure it goes condi chronomancer -> rev -> everything else
^ Very much this. Condi Chronos have a ridiculous amount of sustain and utility. Nothing else really comes close.
I honestly feel like if chronos were brought in line, balance overall may not be that bad.
So here’s my Update after a few hours of 1v1’s and unranked regarding the different MU’s:
This is the build I used, with demo amu:
It’s supposed to be a well-balanced, 1v1-oriented build, possibly not the strongest role for war, as I think it’s best in teamfights.
VS Reaper: Heavily war-favoured. The condi-DMG of the reaper isn’t high/bursty enough and the reaper has severe problems with the CC and his low sustain.
VS Clerics Ele: The war isn’t going to die, but it’s one of the only builds I was actually able to kill multiple clerics-ele’s with in 1v1’s. In teamfights, demo-war practically eats clerics-eles. :P
VS Ranger: The Ranger gets shredded. Like the reaper he has huge problems with the CC and the high power-dmg really rips the menders-druids apart. I think war will be one of the reasons why menders-druid will be phased out in the competetive meta.
VS Engi: Haven’t played many engis, but it felt a bit engi-favoured. Have they changed rapid regen yet btw? ^^
VS Condi-Chrono: It’s not an easy MU, probably slightly mesmer-favoured. Then again; which 1v1 isn’t condi-mesmer favoured?
VS Rev: Haven’t played many either and couldn’t find decent players to 1v1, it’s also kinda hard to theorycraft the MU. My build is definitely not the best variation against rev, so I really don’t know who’d win. Any1 have some experiences with this MU?
VS Thief: very hard to play MU for the war and the one who makes a mistake looses. Blinds/dodges and well timed dazes/stuns can rip the war apart, but if I just land 1 stun and a combo and the thief has used his stunbreakers, he’s history.
VS DH: In theorycrafting, I thought this MU would be hard, cuz of aegis/focus blocks,
decent stability and stunbreakers of the DH. I only played a few DH’s in unranked, but I had no problems at all. I’d still say the MU is even at best for the war.I think the MU’s look promosing for the fact that the build is much better in teamfights than in 1v1’s and a superb +1 roamer; if more than half of the MU’s are either even or favoured for the war, I can see it being pretty useful in high-level play.
Been running something similar, but with Sword/Mace instead of GS. You get all the mobility along with an extra stun and you don’t need the GS cleave if you’re running axe.
Also, swap in Sig of Might for Balanced. With all the blocks going around, it makes a world of difference.
O right i didnt even consider alacrity and Persistence of Memory, you’d probably be able to pull this quite a bit longer than 17 secs. Just imagine if you were running sigil of ether and mimic as well. Lol this is too high maths for me but i wish someone would really calc the max duration a mesmer can invul.
Also im not really knocking mes for having so much more invul than everyone else. Mesmers have always had strong defense with the power creep i wont even deny that they deserve stronger defense. I think the main problem is how much hp they get back while they do it. Restorative illusions is the main offender imo.
FYI, neither blurred frenzy or shield are invulns. The shield block is actually the mesmer’s greatest weakness against a thief.
Assuming the thief is doing his job by +1ing the fight: time your basi venom backstab opener for when the mesmer pops his shield.
You’ll interrupt the shield (basi venom makes your attack unblockable), stun the mesmer, and prevent him from summoning the shield phantasm, which is crucial for his shatters. It’s usually a guaranteed kill if your teammate is competent, because the shield4 makes up the bulk of the mesmer’s defense.
Yup, if the thief does this, then there may be a chance at winning the 2 v 1. =P
Yea, as it stands, a warrior is good at PS, despite the lackluster DPS, but there doesn’t seem to be any non-PS build that deals enough DPS to really be worthwhile. Condi works if you’re in a pinch for something like VG and need another ranged condi person, but is pretty lackluster outside of that.
Been running axe/shield & sword/mace with the new destroyer amulet in PvP lately and it’s restoring some faith in warrior. It’s still a bit hard to tell how it fits in overall with the unsettled meta, but it at least has decent tools to put up a fight against our impending mesmer overlords (sig of might + condi defense):
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQRAsZ3enMdAdhgVhA2dAElilqADpA0ACAK9gGXM4902aftA-TJBFgAEnAgy9HaOIAAPBAA
Don’t ever 1 v 1 them. During team fights or +1s, bring Basilisk Venom and pop it when they use their shield block. Avoid shatters as much as possible.
Your best bet is to read up on the raid fights and join a guild that’s open to new raiders. Be friendly, patient, and humble to advice from others.
It’s the guy that thinks Acro is needed for PvE…go figure.
Dude, what planet are you living on?!?
Fist Flurry and Impact Strike both chew through break bars and Impact Strike is the only one that technically lowers DPS (but not even by a noticeable amount). Fist Flurry is actually a dps increase to use and is only a loss when you need to wait to use it for the break bar to come up.
And it doesn’t matter what weapon set you use since the only hard CC we have on weapons is from tiny stuns that hardly make a dent anyways.
And if you’re condi, then the second it takes to cast basi makes no difference to dps, considering that it’s the biggest instant break in the game.
I wasn’t able to get skelk venom to work in the arena. I checked combat log and couldn’t see any damage being done by the lifesteal.
Yea, lifesteal didn’t show up in the combat logs before the patch either, so it doesn’t surprise me. Somehow I doubt it’s showing up in the DPS calculations either. =/
Welcome to video games. They cost $ to make, so they cost $ to play. Enjoy your stay.
P.s. If this was WoW, you’d be level 20, which, I can assure you, is a much stronger handicap in PvP. =P
(edited by Dahkeus.8243)
Condition Ele’s biggest problem is that other than damage it doesn’t do a lot, though. It’s just raw damage, in which case why not use a power Ele which is stronger? The nice niche about condition Necro/Thief/Engi is that they offer a lot of unique utility that helps in myriad ways. Even condition Warrior is more useful IMO because at least that can bring a banner / FGS to free up a slot on a PS War.
- Engineer: Cleave heals from Water blasts, great add control with hard CC utility, lots of collateral conditions that can make adds a lot more tolerable.
- Thief: Incredible CC, great sustain boost thanks to Leeching Venoms and the newly buffed Skelk Venom, 75%+ evasion uptime for surprising bulk, amazing mobility.
- Necromancer: Incredibly bulky with no investment, good personal Stability, incredibly high potential DPS with tricks, DPS loss at range is minimal.
Maybe I’m just missing something, though. What does condi Ele really add to the mix other than like WtPA?
^ Add condi removal to engi.
As for ele, not sure, but you could probably add rebound.
S/d is not.viable.and never will be
Either you don’t remember the days when S/D was meta or you have have some magical crystal ball the rest of us don’t, lol.
And honestly, considering that there’s no re-established meta yet, it’s hard to say what is or isn’t viable. I would be surprised if S/D does become viable/meta, but half of what makes one build strong in PvP is determined by what other builds are popular along with how well it can counter them. Sharp scissors don’t matter in a world of rocks. =P
So, here’s my 2 copper:
If you want to play the role of +1, you’ll generally pull that off more effectively with a D/P build. S/D can +1 as well, but it’s more of a brawler type build that sacrifices burst for the ability to survive a messier fight and strip boons. D/P, on the other hand, will jump in a fight with more burst and excels at quickly downing a low HP target or at least shutting it down with stuns.
If you want to play burstier as a +1, you’ll also want to run with scholar runes. For S/D, something like Rune of the Pack would probably be better.
Shadow step is also definitely worth keeping. The cooldown seems high, but it will still be worth the slot since you shouldn’t be stunned that often anyways. It’s a versatile skill, so don’t just think of it as a stun break. A couple general uses for it are:
- Travelling the map faster to ensure you decap before an enemy can respond.
- Shadow stomping to prevent interrupt, such as against a guardian or when enemy is in the middle of a team fight.
- Condi clear when in a fight where a stun break is less important (such as against a necro)
The more you get used to shadow step and the better you get a feel for when and why to use it, the better you’ll realize that the skill is.
Dagger #4 is very rarely useful, but ever once in a blue moon, you can use it to finish off someone at range or to snare them if you’ve already used the shadow step from #2.
Dagger #5 is primarily for dazeing an opponent from your stealth attack. This is best used when you’re fighting with an ally and expect the enemy to heal or use a defensive cooldown when they’re getting low and allow your teammate to keep up damage without any resistance. If you’re solo, it’s a bit less useful, but it’s still also helpful for disengaging from a fight if things aren’t going well.
With ele, most of your condi comes from burns, and most burn abilities are on target, so moving targets matters less.
Moving targets affect power eles more I think (Lava Font and MS).So, is condi war kind of pointless then at this point? Trying to decide if I keep my war’s condi set, or move stuff to my ele.
Condi warrior is pretty…meh, but it still works. I wouldn’t salvage anything, even if it wasn’t worth running anyways since you never know when something will get buffed.
And I wouldn’t jump on ele just yet. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of proof backing up the numbers, especially on a moving target, and even if the dps is a bit better, there’s still the question of utility. There’s not really much you gain from a condi ele that you wouldn’t get from a power ele. It’s really not much different than a condi engi (burns + heal utility), except you’re a lot more reliant on being in melee.
If it were me rerolling to something fresh, I’d go power ele or I’d go with a condi spec that had a more of a specific utility (such as thief for break bar or necro for epi).
But you can make the same argument for other classes while moving. For example, moving bosses for engineer will drop their DPS because they move out of fire fields.
Very true, but if you’re comparing condi thief to power thief, then you won’t see that same dps loss for power.
A good engi may be gold, you say. Well, i guess the issue is that good other classes are platinum then…and with a quarter of the effort required.
having finally seriously tried a couple other classes, this is the primary issue. it was so easy to pick up necro. im a kitten y rev. im a decent ranger in pvp. i can do ok on guard and ele. all with so little effort.
perhaps venom share thief can take over cc duty. they prolly dont do much less dps than an engi with slick shoes… cuz theres no opportunity cost of giving up big dps to take cc.
I think CC won’t just be a 1 person job anymore, which makes sense since it never was supposed to be this.
Venom share is good against break bars, but the dps is pretty terrible.
However, between a rev and a power daredevil, you should be plenty of breakbar down and the thief will bring a ton of DPS, even on messy fights.
here is a test. looks like its time to move my gear. venom share doesnt even need to give up a huge part of its dps to take its cc.
Well, before you start anything as radical as that, consider the following:
- This vid was on a moving target, which gave max benefit to torment. Engi doesn’t rely on this.
- Thief still has terrible cleave and won’t compare to engi on moving fights.
- Thief won’t provide burning for epi if you run a necro in your group.
- Thief also won’t be able to fill a ranged role for something like green circles on VG.
Condi thief does have some advantages, but it doesn’t beat out everything an engi does. On some fights, the engi will be better, on others the thief will be better.
I definitely wouldn’t suggest rerolling to condi thief unless it just sounds really fun to you. If you’re 100% about min-maxing, you could just craft some condi daggers so that you could swap between engi and thief, depending on the fight and needs of the group.
So, here’s the bottom line.
On most fights, an ele will probably top dps. However, a thief will probably edge ahead on fights where the boss moves around more, especially if it doesn’t have a large hitbox. You’ll also get a lot of breakbar utility out of a thief, which is especially valuable in a post-slick shoes nerf world.
Condi thief is even showing some potential and may be a strong choice for certain fights, even if the dps isn’t as great (group healing + better instant break bar).
So, there’s a lot of value in bringing a thief and that value is a lot more visible than before the patch.
Overall, this is great news for people who want to raid on thief.
Awesome, thanks. I’m at work or else I’d try to do a test as well. I did some napkin math on the thread in the dungeons section and guessed about 25k would be your result, but it was really rough, so I could be off by a decent bit.
Also, considering that this was a moving target, I’d assume the actual DPS would be much lower in realistic situations since there’s so many fights with bosses that move less than this golem or don’t move at all.
Yea, it’s really hard to say what is best right now.
- Engi is great in ideal situations and synergizes well if you have an epi necro in the group (since it brings lots of burning), brings some condi removal/healing and also has good blinds for encounters with adds. However, it loses a lot of steam on messier fights and has a higher skill cap.
- Necro is very straight forward, can work very well at ranged, and epidemic is really strong on encounters with adds.
- Condi thief seems to have a lot of potential and is probably the closest replacement for slick shoes with shared basi venom. Skelk can give a good bit of sustain and the DPS seems to have a lot of potential from what was shown in the vid. However, I haven’t seen anything showing how it compares in a test without 100% alacrity since it will benefit a lot from this.
If I was to do some quick napkin math to guess what condi thief would be like without 100% alacrity, I’d guess that it’s around 25k, which is on par with a perfect rotation engi and necro under the same conditions:
16k DPS without venoms
15k DPS from venom share (delta calculation from video) with a 33% reduction = 10k DPS
16k DPS without venoms + 10k DPS from non-alacrity venoms = 26k
The lack of alacrity (or a-lack-rity…get it?) would reduce the 16k a bit since alacrity affects steal and Impairing daggers, but shouldn’t be that massive, which is why I’d guess 25k. Again this is rough math.
Source for DPS comparison of other builds without Alacrity: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4ft01q/qt_dps_benchmarkstests_for_all_classes/
Very interesting, thanks for running these tests. I find it encouraging that the venomshare build with shared venoms is so close to power staff dps.
However…
This is running with 100% alacrity, which is very unrealistic. I’d be interested to see what the dps is without alacrity to get an idea of how much that is contributing to the results.
Still, it does seem like this may be a viable build for groups that want more contribution to break bars. I’m wondering if the changes to Skelk Venom would make that skill worth using as well…
The problem with this build is it has no reason to exist. If a raid team wants pure dps, it brings an ele or thief. If they bring a warrior they want Might and Banners, not a random condi warrior with sundering leap.
Pretty sure the assumption is that this is something you run along side a PS war. I think the problem isn’t that this is a warrior build that’s not full PS support, but rather that warrior builds that aren’t full support don’t seem to be able to put out competitive DPS with an ele/thief.
Agreed on all accounts here.
I’m still a big advocate of having Cloak and Dagger (dagger #5 for those unaware) to put a Blind on the enemy hit with it. Not only would it help S/D, it’d also go miles for (power) D/D users.
Totally agree with that suggestion. The blind on stealth trait helped make D/D viable in WvW back before HoT, but with the new DD trait line, the SA trait line just doesn’t fit like it used to. A blind on CnD would go a long way.
Well, with Alacrity, it will also improve both Revenant and Engineer which are close 3rd and 4th, so in that sense, they will surpass the Thief and the Thief probably end up in 5th place.
I don’t follow that. They are trailing both in the unbuffed and buffed category by a margin of 4-6k. If one single boon that is able to be cycled more than quickness can not only cover that gap and but surpass it enough to say, beyond the variation, that Thief is 4th place, then Alcarity is the most broken boon in the game, even in it’s nerfed form.
With the Chrono’s build, there’s a total of 20s worth of Alacrity. All the wells will be available again by the time the Chrono finishes the first Alacrity rotation. In a sense, there will be almost 100% Alacrity uptime for the Mesmer and roughly 80% uptime for everyone else. Which means that even the Guardian can surpass the Thief seeing how the Thief’s build is simply relying on autoattacks and Fist Flurry rotation. The Guardian with Alacrity can pop more traps for a more DPS burst. The raid might even be better off if they trade the Thief for a second Mesmer to have a 100% Alacrity uptime. I’m sure that the loss of DPS from the Thief is no big deal if every other profession in the raid gets their skills 33% faster.
You and Dahkneus seem to be in disagreement and I don’t have numbers to prove either way, so I won’t argue against it and I won’t dismiss it as a valid point.
But if it does turn out to be true, then I hope they look at finally giving a more benefit to thieves from Alacrity.
Numbers and proof!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4fnnfo/dps_comparison/
You can follow the engi links here back to a video of the 30k DPS (or, direct link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibRCp1vQpqc&index=1&list=PLMdLyt-5r_24ISvEQ2wmrk8b0Cpspa_WN), which is pulled off with 100% alacrity (which will never happen in a real raid unless you’re stacking mesmers for some reason).Revenant isn’t even close.
Thieves don’t need alacrity for big damage (aside from venom share) and honestly that’s more of a benefit since we don’t need to rely on it for big dps like other classes do.
I was surprised at the numbers for condi, but the linked post seems to imply he did the test solo, which doesn’t factor in venom share.
Yea, I haven’t seen any good numbers for a venom share test with the shared venoms included, but there’s nothing to indicate that it would be anything substantial. At best, it may barely beat out a PS war, lol.
What warrior need:
Big hammer!
Strong fist!
ANGRY!
and meat.
Well, with Alacrity, it will also improve both Revenant and Engineer which are close 3rd and 4th, so in that sense, they will surpass the Thief and the Thief probably end up in 5th place.
I don’t follow that. They are trailing both in the unbuffed and buffed category by a margin of 4-6k. If one single boon that is able to be cycled more than quickness can not only cover that gap and but surpass it enough to say, beyond the variation, that Thief is 4th place, then Alcarity is the most broken boon in the game, even in it’s nerfed form.
With the Chrono’s build, there’s a total of 20s worth of Alacrity. All the wells will be available again by the time the Chrono finishes the first Alacrity rotation. In a sense, there will be almost 100% Alacrity uptime for the Mesmer and roughly 80% uptime for everyone else. Which means that even the Guardian can surpass the Thief seeing how the Thief’s build is simply relying on autoattacks and Fist Flurry rotation. The Guardian with Alacrity can pop more traps for a more DPS burst. The raid might even be better off if they trade the Thief for a second Mesmer to have a 100% Alacrity uptime. I’m sure that the loss of DPS from the Thief is no big deal if every other profession in the raid gets their skills 33% faster.
You and Dahkneus seem to be in disagreement and I don’t have numbers to prove either way, so I won’t argue against it and I won’t dismiss it as a valid point.
But if it does turn out to be true, then I hope they look at finally giving a more benefit to thieves from Alacrity.
Numbers and proof!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4fnnfo/dps_comparison/
You can follow the engi links here back to a video of the 30k DPS (or, direct link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibRCp1vQpqc&index=1&list=PLMdLyt-5r_24ISvEQ2wmrk8b0Cpspa_WN), which is pulled off with 100% alacrity (which will never happen in a real raid unless you’re stacking mesmers for some reason).
Revenant isn’t even close.
Thieves don’t need alacrity for big damage (aside from venom share) and honestly that’s more of a benefit since we don’t need to rely on it for big dps like other classes do.
Phineas…I still don’t even know where to start with you. I asked a straight forward, legitimate question, so I don’t even know where you started getting “doom and gloom” from. You’ve actually answered some of that in some of the most round about essay replies I’ve seen on these forums, so thanks at least for that.
And yes, slick shoes was a major consideration for raid leaders as a slick shoes engi basically meant that you could insta-break gorseval while only relying on one person. I shouldn’t have to say this, but considering your previous replies, I will just because I can pretty much anticipate your response if I don’t put this here:
Yes, you didn’t need slick shoes, but it was so much more efficient for a raid group to have 1 engi handle the break bar that it made the fight smoother and allowed for other people to focus on other areas. It wasn’t technically necessary, but shoes aren’t technically necessary either when you can duct tape blocks of wood to the bottoms of your feet. =P
Being second DPS while being unable to provide any utility to the party simply means that elementalists will always be picked over a thief. Unless the group is looking for a random dps dealer, or you’re in a raiding guild who doesn’t mind bringing a thief, you’ll never have a spot in a raid group.
In a world without slick shoes wrecking breakbars, not only is the utility from Impact Strike/Fist Flurry relevant, it’s important.
Have you read the disclaimer?
Ofcourse, as always with these tests there are some flaws that we couldn’t avoid while testing, for example according to this chart a Thief does the same DPS as a Dagger/Warhorn Tempest, with “realistic” buffs, which is ofcourse not true because in these tries neither of them had any Alacrity while in a raid you would have some which would benefit the Tempest much more.
Yeah, I did and that’s why I’m not claiming we are equal or better, even though we came out ahead by 2k in the realistic tests.
You also cut out that last sentence…
But we feel like these numbers are reasonably accurate and good numbers to aim for if youre trying to improve yourself.
…which is an important sentence and a sentiment I agree with.
Well, with Alacrity, it will also improve both Revenant and Engineer which are close 3rd and 4th, so in that sense, they will surpass the Thief and the Thief probably end up in 5th place.
Totally false. Even without alacrity, a thief still easily outDPSes both eng and revenant. Well, an engi can get close with 100% alacrity on a boss that stays perfectly still, but that’s pretty irrelevant.
People need to take a step back here. Thieves can provide some of the most competitive DPS in the game right now while also bringing some great break bar utility. We’re only clearly beat by staff eles on large hit box enemies and considering how much easier it is to keep up 100% dps on moving targets as a thief compared to an ele, we’re going to be top dps in many realistic scenarios.
The point is to have fun.
^ This.
Still the most challenging content in the game and joining up with a group of 10 friends is really enjoyable. It’s a great chance to really get to know the people in your guild as well.
The loot is also pretty good, especially since you can trade in minis for extra currency.
A good engi may be gold, you say. Well, i guess the issue is that good other classes are platinum then…and with a quarter of the effort required.
having finally seriously tried a couple other classes, this is the primary issue. it was so easy to pick up necro. im a kitten y rev. im a decent ranger in pvp. i can do ok on guard and ele. all with so little effort.
perhaps venom share thief can take over cc duty. they prolly dont do much less dps than an engi with slick shoes… cuz theres no opportunity cost of giving up big dps to take cc.
I think CC won’t just be a 1 person job anymore, which makes sense since it never was supposed to be this.
Venom share is good against break bars, but the dps is pretty terrible.
However, between a rev and a power daredevil, you should be plenty of breakbar down and the thief will bring a ton of DPS, even on messy fights.