Guild Wars 2

cesmode.4257:

Pocket.2740:

Also really dissapointed by this change. I feel it is really imporatnt that as customer I am able to aquire the exact number of gems needed to buy a item on the gemstore. I agree with the suggestions made already, either:

1) Include a field on the new UI where we can specify a custom number of gems/gold
2) Revert back to the old UI
3) Provide an option to toggle between the old and new UI

I believe in being a responsible consumer and I just can’t bring myself to buy gems anymore as it might be used as a metric to show support for this change.

You know, this is so typical of arenanet. Launch something that they know will create flame and rage. They will let us rant and rave on the forums, ask for our feedback, and then do very little about it. Once the crying and raging has died down, they go back to business as usual.

They did this with fractals, ascended gear, megaservers, living story stuffs, and now this. Its so typical and we MUST expect this sort of thing. Theres a reason NCSoft has the rep they have in the industry and sadly this trickles down to the developer(arenanet). Arenanet will soon have this sort of stigma attached to them if they don’t already…the stigma of impulsive additions to wait and see how we react and they KNOW how we will react.

My question is: Why tinker with a system that is tied so closely with consumer behavior to spend real money. This has only angered a lot of people and has done very little good. These people that are upset are less likely to spend money in your gem store. Why risk it?

Yeah it’s something I also noticed before. And I do wonder if they think there-self that if the complains of the forums die out that people really don’t have the complains anymore?

Like the megaservers for example. The fact that the complains have gone down is not because the problems are gone. Sure we have leaned better ways to work around the problems but we still have the problems of it. The reason we are not complaining about it on the forums anymore is because we already said what there way to say about it and then it’s Anet’s turn. (not fixing it just results in – points for them)

But they seem to be oke with it. So they think the ending of the complains means the problems are gone and people are just raging at a change just because it’s new and they will be fine with it when they get used to it (What is not the case with bad changes).

Thats also the excuse many people without good arguments use to defend any bad change (people just don’t like it because it’s new).

Or do they understand people still have all those same problems but they simply don’t care?

quietscribe.1573:

Beldin.5498:

GW2Spidey is broken … look here :
https://www.gw2tp.com/gems

Spidey may a little borked, potentially, but the massive increase in cost does not tally with previous event increase in gem price. We are talking here about about a 5-8 gold price increase for 100 gems between yesterday and today. There has never, to my knowledge, been any event that has had that sort of gem price increase, and it comes right when they change they layout?

I think ArenaNet has manually changed the average price when they released the patch, potentially to encourage people to buy more gems with rl money, trusting that the change in UI and the lack of detailed graph information would inhibit many players from noticing.

I have seen these jumps before and while sometimes they could be explained by a patch (new rewards people where interested in) what never could be explained was why it then not really dropped back down again.

If I look at my personal gold income that has been stable ever since one gold got yout about 50 gems. Not it was something like 6 (well before this patch).

So I do expect Anet to increase that average once in a while. Of course I can’t be sure.

Koviko.3248:

I was formerly a defender of Anet for their weird, irrational decisions as of late. But this one screams of nothing but greed.

Anet is doing the same thing so many F2P companies end up doing: paying more attention to how to squeeze money out of us than how to provide us with good content. I thought Anet was better than this. I already pay well over $15/mo on this game, but only because I thought I could trust Anet.

Anet is no longer trustworthy.

This is what happens with every cash-shop focused game and I have been warning about it since about a half year after release when it became clear to me they would not go with there B2P but with the cash-shop approach.

Rasselbande.2654:

this new UI will show us the professionalism of the programer
if u find a little sarcasm, you can take it

They usually don’t design the system, they only build it, especially in bigger companies. While I think they should be more involved in the design progress to get better products in general thats not how it usually works.

Anet had a UI designer but she recently left so don’t know is she did still work on this or not but even then it’s possible she does not decide about the options (fixed set of intervals vs the ability to manually select what you want). It’s likely that the monetize person was devolved in this. Then still she might have had a good idea from a monetizing perspective but only did not foresee the backlash or she did and the hole idea is to then throw a bone to the costumers by adding the option too buy 200 gems and then simply wait for the topic about this dies out (not that that means people accept it) and they did then draw a new line for how far they take the cash-shop focus.

It’s already much further as they said it would be, back when the game was released. And some people do accept that while at the same time it is harming the game.

Tyragon.2496:

The old system was clunky and could be confusing, but this is just using the new players as scapegoats. Capping the gold to gem conversion at 400 as the least amount is an obvious nudge at us to buy gems with money rather than gold. We aren’t that stupid to not notice it.

I really really hope you mean you are listening to feedback, Gaile, cause this is mine and I bet a lot of players would prefer it.

Add gold to gem conversion like this “1, 25, 50, 100, 200, 300, 400, etc” and make sure the gold to gem actually tries to calculate the least price in terms of silver and copper.

THIS would simplify the system without taking out the liberty of getting just the right gem amount you want. Right now, people can’t buy items like the 200 gems headpieces, hair and makeover kits or even outfits that goes for an uneven 700 gems price without paying for more gems than necessary.

Then you get a very big list. Just add the ability to manually convert and your done. There is not problem in having that ability.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Really? You’re 100% certain there’s never been such a post? Good for you, then!

That is what they name a hyperbole. Acting as if a hyperbole should be taken literally in order to disproof another’s persons statement is never a good defense.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Hey there,

Here are a few tidbits from the team:

• A lot of newer players had trouble with the interface. That doesn’t apply to you, you’re veterans who have been around the conversion block a time or two. But newer players will benefit from the updated system.
• The goal was to make the Gem Store more like other shopping experiences, and if you think about it, there is more of that feel to it now.
• You may be surprised to know this (I know I was) but very few people bought gems at smaller denominations than the first one offered in the new system. That’s not to say they never did, nor that there wouldn’t be the desire to do so. But overall, the current options were selected based on player purchases in the past.
• The team is going to listen to your feedback and, if and when it’s practical and desirable, they can look towards adjusting the new system to better meet your needs.

So please keep your thoughts coming on the new system. Feel free to make suggestions but please, keeping them constructive would be very much appreciated.

“* A lot of newer players had trouble with the interface. That doesn’t apply to you, you’re veterans who have been around the conversion block a time or two. But newer players will benefit from the updated system.”

Well if we figured that extremely hard to understand system out, they will to. It’s not something that will scare them away.

Still changing the UI to make it easier is one thing that nobody is complaining about here. Taking away the freedom to buy / spend the amount you want is what people complain about.

(Oow and many people use this reason for any change they do not like as a joke on the forums these days so I would have left that one out.. just a tip )

“*The goal was to make the Gem Store more like other shopping experiences, and if you think about it, there is more of that feel to it now. "
If I go to a store I just pay the amount I need. I don’t buy tickets from there shop first and then buy the items with those tickets that do not match the price..?

“* You may be surprised to know this (I know I was) but very few people bought gems at smaller denominations than the first one offered in the new system.”
compared to the number of atoms on this planet there are only a few grains of sands on this planet. Still I would not want to ignore the existence of those few grains of sands.

“* The team is going to listen to your feedback and, if and when it’s practical and desirable, they can look towards adjusting the new system to better meet your needs.”
Well thats good. Not sure about the if however.. It is more practical and desirable to have the option to select how many gems you want to buy or spend and to select how many gold you want to get or to spend.

The new option is not bad.. as an option even as the main visible option. What is bad is that the old option is completely gone.

Where there now is the “buy more” link, make a “select manual” button that gives the old function. Then everybody would be fine with it I guarantee you.

“yeah tools have gotten better no doubt but”
Yeah so it takes longer as it would have taken a few years ago but not as much as how much more detailed it has become. GW1 did it in half a year. Many other (non B2P) games release between 1,5 and 2 years and many single player games (who don’t just add to a game but create a completely new games) also have a gap of 2 years. So yeah the 1 year gap should be doable imho if that has there focus.

“not if they fit the living story in.”
While I personally believed that would be possible (I would still not like it because of the way the cash-shop focus effects the game) Anet did show it was not able to. Don’t now come to me about end of 2015. Ever since I talk about this subject people have been pointing to other MMO’s as reference. No we (people who said they wanted expansions) should give Anet the same time as other games.. Well We did, it’s well over 2 years.. the amount of time most games would have had an expansions and they failed. Sorry the “wait a little longer” I did already and that deadline ends tomorrow. Then ‘We’ waited as long as those other games (most of them) did take to deliver a expansion.

They said they would release the content we would normally see in expansions they where just not sure how they delivered it. That pretty literally what they said.. Well what we would normally see is x amound of content in y amound of time. What we have now is smaller as the x range and the y range has reached it max as well.

“there is no set standard for how long it takes to do an expansion.” Of course.. first “we” had to wait the same time as those other games and now there is no standard so should have no end-date. Again.. sorry that end-date is tomorrow. And that’s based on ‘the other games out there’ and the people defending Anet. Most games out there took 1,5 to 2 years. So that is what it’s going to be for ‘us’.

The “wait longer excuse” is just not going to cut it anymore.

PS:
Oow and about Tera. I did not play the game but in a discussion I had about this same subject with somebody else a person mentioned Tera and I also know of that list WoW look the longest to release it’s first expansion. So I did know your 3,6 years was false, I just did not know the real dates. Looked them up for you.

It was released on January 25 2011.
The first expansion was The Argon Queen and was released on August 22 of 2012. That is 1 year and 7 months.

Edit, add:
I would also like to and my doubts about how lucrative the hole cash-shop approach is. That, because ever since release the cash shop has become more and more intrusive and aggressive. Maybe they did earn enough with it and just wanted still earn more or maybe they did not earn what they expected and that forced them to become more aggressive. With the Gem conversion debacle as last example of that (lets hope they will see this was a step to far and undo that soon. Or maybe they simply let it go, adding 200 gems as option and so draw a new line as to how far they take it)

Anyway, if it’s because they are not earning enough the cash-shop focus is not only negative for the gamer bus also for the company a lose lose situation. The risk of trying to optimizing income with the expense of the product is of course always there with any system. There have plains come down because of it.

Will try to keep this shorter. Edit: Failed.

“you suggested players should be pushed into buying the expansion in order to avoid a fracture. “ Not really, I think a good expansion will have that effect on it’s own. People want to do that new content and get those new rewards and so on. But that does not mean the old stuff has to become irrelevant.
As an example, same quest / and events might be updated and not all new dungeons need to have there entrance in the new land, some might be placed in existing land. Also something like WoW did with adding the ability to fly is a good example of updating older maps.
That some maps might get emptier is not to blame on expansion but on the way content is designed. GW2 also has maps that are very empty and it does not have had an expansion. So you can’t blame that on expansions.

I have no idea where you get those numbers from but the graph I linked clearly showed a spike at every release of an expansion. The spike was on average 100% of the initial sale spike.

“What if the shortest time they could possible finish an expansion is 2 or even 3 years?”
Then they are doing something wrong.

“This is totally an assumption. We have no way to tell what prompted Gw2 initial success.” Not completely true. Anet got a name with GW1 including it’s payment model. GW2 was bigger (what was only possible because of GW1’s success, if that wasn’t successful GW2 would not exist). Now there have obviously been more reasons and guessing what was more important is an assumption but you can be 100% sure that GW1’s success and the name it created with that was part of that.. again, if GW1 was a fail GW2 would never have been funded. What you do know for 100% sure is that the cash-shop focus was not part of it as it was not knows by then they would start focusing on that. We did know there was an expansion but that was only for a few minor things like the boosters.. so they told us.

“there is no purest form! B2P is threated differently by every MMO company out there. “
B2P meaning you earn your money with sales of the game. So then thats the purest form. And yes many companies do have different approaches, that does not mean there is no purest form. There are many companies that mix salt with other stuff, that does not mean there is no purest for of salt (100% salt).

“is it really any differen ”
Oow yes that’s huge. With the one you buy the game and then play it, earning stuff in the game you play for. With the other you get the game and they (have the ability) to buy the rewards. Playing for them turns into grinding ingame gold for them and from a game-play perspective they are not worth that much because everybody could have just both them. It’s a huge huge huge difference while obviously that also depends on your personal preferred game-play. One example for me.. One of the things I did in other mmo’s was collecting mini’s. That did send me all over the world, doing dungeons, killing mobs, doing quest and so on and son on. In GW2 I did get a few that I like but collecting them? Hell no.. That means buying them with cash or grinding gold for them. Yes technically I could be doing the same type of content but the incentive is gone and in fact I get punished for doing it that way because there are other ways to grind the gold faster and the value from a game-play perspective for those mini’s are gone. So yeah huge difference.

“if you sell an expansion you’re locking out content. ”
I think we misunderstood each other here. I was talking about locking out content in previous releases just so they could release it later. (Like the famous examples of the pools in The Sims 4 but I know a few more examples)

About the skins:
I don’t have fun buying them and grinding gold is also not what I like and for many “playing GW2” has become grinding gold to buy the items. Maybe you like both of that, I have other idea’s of how you play a game and again there is also the gameplay value of an item that gets destroyed that way.

I just wanted to thank Anet for proving my point I am making here for over a year, why a focus on the cash-shop is bad for the game and so they should get rid of that and focus on expansions.

While in all honestly I don’t even see how they think this change helps them selling more gems only that the numbers are not in line with the items so you are forced to buy more. Let’s say you want a the mini’s for 500 gems you need to buy 800 but because of the absurd gem-prices many people might not be able to buy that with gold so Anet hopes they will then buy it with money?

Anyway, have a read https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/first

So what we see here is just one example.

Not much more to say about it. Have said so much about the cash-shop focus and how it’s bad for the game. When I started with saying that most of the community was still against me, now most seem to be on my side.

Let’s hope Anet will understand this change was just to bad and needs to be undone.. (the freedom to select your own amount been taken away I mean)

“Micro transaction incentives moving stuff from the game to a cash shop” And the difference here is thats is not an incentive but a financial need because thats how they earn the money. They need to get people to buy those items. For an expansion a good expansion would do the trick, there is no need to keep locking out content, that might in fact backfire while with micro-transaction there is the need to move desired stuff to the cash-shop. That is a huge difference.

“in other forums Gw2 is often given as an example of how to do a cash shop correctly.” You see thats a funny thing. GW2 is build around skins and also I personally prefer skins over stats. And what is GW2 putting most in the cash-shop? Indeed skins. In what forums would you see people saying GW2 does it good? Games that focus more in combat / kills and where they sell skills. Those games would however likely not earn eough money if they would only put skins in there and I think GW2 would not earn enough money if they put stats in there cash-shop. So the whole “It’s not P2W” what this boils down to is a nice pitch but irrelevant for a games build around skins.

Games have become newer and more detailed but development tools have also become better so if GW1 was able to push out an expansion every 6 months yeah then GW2 should be able to push out an expansion every year. That is, if they where to focus on earning there money that way as in a B2P game, not if they earned there money with a cash-shop (like they do now) or the P2P model. Just like the games you refer to are doing.

“lets not disregard that Gw2 would actually probably take longer due to very frequent updates and creating a DE takes more time then making a regular quest.”
That would then obviously be less in favor of those expansions.

“Living world team is 20 people and they’ve released the bulk of the content so far there are still 330 more employees working at Anet they have to be working on something!” Yeah thats what they say all the time right. But where is all that content. You know ever for your average MMO (non B2P) GW2 should have had an expansion by now but it doesn’t. Maybe things like EotM are the “background projects” they are working on? And while the LS did not even give us close to what an expansion should, if you go look at the development time.. all the changes to maps, all mini the instances, all the dialogs and so on and so on.. thats at least close to the same development time as would have gone into an expansion. Anyway.. many of the ‘defenders’ have been telling the ‘complainers’ to wait for expansions (or the content) and to watch at how long other games took to release it.

Well been waiting for an announcement of over 1,5 year now and we are well over the average time of those games (and again I would expect GW2 to be B2P (what it isn’t) and then it would have releases closes to each other because that would have there focus) so if you say “They are working on it” well where is it? The time is here? Those complainers have waited where is it? Will make a thread about that in 3 days.

“No, I said I dislike repeatable but If I have to repeat stuff I’d appreciate as much variety as possible. if these areas get neglected though with no updates and actually pushing people to move to newer level then it means group content in those areas is no longer feasible.”

You do know this makes no sense whatsoever right? If they add new maps with new events that does not mean you would not be able to do the old events. You think everybody would then move to the new maps and that might be (while it does not have to be true), just as they now move to specific area’s (except for a few like you who keep repeating events apparently).

“Also changes to existing zones makes them more interesting again and even if the”
Like I said, you can also do some updates in existing maps when releasing an expansion.

“No it wouldnt. Gw2 earns approxamitely 4x Gw1 did. So far Gw2 already made more money then Gw1 did in all its lifetime! Investors arent going to give that up. All we can really petition for is a reasonable cash shop and so far I dont see them doing a bad job there and they do try to meet players half way most of the time. ”

Maybe you do it on purpose or maybe you just don’t know how to ‘read’ those numbers. And that while I even said I talked about percentages. Yes GW2 made more money (For a big part because of the good name it got thanks to GW1 with it’s B2P model). It’s a bigger game and got released as B2P and immediate had much bigger sales. So that is where you starting point is.

Arguing with you about this is useless if you do not get that but I will try to explain it to you. Here is a chars that shows sales of NCSoft https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg
There is you see that indeed GW2 made much more money then GW1 and even it’s cash-shop income was able to keep generating more money then GW1 ever was able to. But first of all you forget that that big spike (starting point) was thanks to GW1 and GW2 was knows as a B2P game much like GW1 so thats not thanks to the cash-shop focus.

Now what is interesting is the percentage of income to it’s initial peak. That is the only way we can make a fair comparison to GW1 to see how much GW2 would have likely earned if they pushed out an expansion every year. When you look to GW1 you see that at the release of every expansion it got on average 100% of it’s initial sale. GW2’s cash-shop did drop to UNDER a steady income of 25% (at this moment). And then I just act as if GW1 did not earn any money in-between the releases of expansions (what is untrue and would only benefit the GW1 model more).

Now some easy calculation for 1 year. GW2 < 25% per quarter is < 100% per year while 100% per year is 100% per year. It’s not a guarantee because obviously if Anet would have released bad expansions the numbers would have dropped after the first expansion but the numbers show that the B2P would have earned them more money then there current model that. That is, if the development-cost are the same but if we are to believe Anet they are putting in the same effort as they would for an expansions “they release the same content but in another way” according to them.

A B2P model means you earn money with game-sales (that includes expansions). True does not stand for “according to some guide-lines” but “in it’s purest form”. So that means they earn money only with sales on the game (and expansions) and because of that they will need to release expansion on a more regular base as non B2P games.
“he B2P model as buy the game and dont pay for anything else only existed for 1 year.” Whut? Most games use a B2P model, only in the MMO scene it’s not used so much. While it’s true that more and more games try to grap every last cent they can and games get to suffer for it. It;s one of the big complains most gamers do complain about these days. Look at The Sims was really focused on using this model (and was very successful with it), but then went into the bad zone with The Sims 4.

“B2P with no Micro transaction incentives content locks” Yes it does but it does not have to as many games have proven over the year. In fact investors might soon realize thats the worse they can do with that model looking how that worked out for the Sims 4 while all there previous versions (where that did not happen) sold very good and how it would not be strange to think that all the crap they will sell as additions for Destiny might also not sell as good because of this approach. But thats a risk, however it’s not a given, nor is there a financial need to do it that way.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

~

~Much better then having to repeat the same raid week after week until the next thing comes along dont you think? Repeating content is unavoidable we all agree on that but I’d rather then 100% of the content to choose from then less then 1%

Even if that’s how it works (how it isn’t. people don’t just start over doing quest again after 200 days) it still doesn’t change anything because with traditional quest there are also easy over 2000+ quest and people do that once per character what makes it just as time limited. yes technically you can do events many times on one character but we both know thats simply not how it works.

However your story did change a little. Before this game had no time-limit on content and now you don’t like the repeatable content in those other games but do like it in this game. Well lets be fair, many people prefer to repeat doing raids then some quest.

Devata.6589:

Devata.6589:

~

~snip for space.

Well it’s the sort of stuff that kept me playing in those games. Collecting all those things.

Devata.6589:

Devata.6589:

~

Lets hope no. Like I said a few lines above one of the best feature of Gw2 is it doesnt kill off its content once you outlevel it. What you’re proposing does exactly that.

Why does it? It’s still repeatable and that how you liked it you said before?

Devata.6589:

Devata.6589:

~

Yes that exactly what it means. At the end of the day MMOs are financed by investors which means developers need to balance player needs with investors needs. Remove a lucrative revenue stream that everyone else taps into will definitely not make investors happy. It will most likely just drive them away and you end up with no game in the end so everyone looses. Which of those items do you think will sell enough to provide a steady income stream to investors? expansions will give a big boost for a couple of months every 2 – 3 years and maybe character slots now and then. For most of the time Quarter to Quarter investors would receive abysmal results which will definitely not keep them happy. You’re just thinking players but we’re just one of the stake holders.

Oow you have a point here. Investors are scared very easy. Looking at the sales of GW1 and GW2 (in percentages) did suggest that GW2 would have earned more if they where a true B2P game but for many investors thats a scary route. They prefer cash-shop route. However don’t forget just a few years ago investors where afraid of the F2P / cash-shop route and only wanted P2P. Many games did go bankrupt or eventually turned F2P so it might be a matter of time before they have the guts to try a true B2P game. In fact you already see them trying it with for example Destiny but at the same time you also see they are still afraid. Everything has to be planned out, content has been taken out on purpose. They want to have the whole thing planed out in details and have much of the content done already.

Of course thats not how a true B2P model works. You release a full product, and then release an expansion that adds a true expansion of content to that partly based on what other games do and what your consumers ask for.

however Desteny earned back it investment in no time. So maybe next knowing that an investor has the guts to allow the game-developer to do it right.

Yes cash-shop are easy money but they also harm the game and a good games also earns it’s money plus it creates a good name for the company.

In fact GW2 is proof of that. Anet had a great name it created for itself with GW1. The current approach however did harm there name and I can tell you that if they where to release GW3 it would have lower sales based on that. So a good games earns money and a good name earns money. A cash-shop is easy money but does not provide both of them.

“expansions will give a big boost for a couple of months every 2 – 3” A true B2P game would release expansions faster. While maybe not as fast as GW1 (about once every half year) once a year should be possible. Based on GW1 they would then earn about 100% of what they earned at release. That means that at the second expansion (that we then would have had by now) GW2 would have earned more money in total then they do with the cash-shop. And why do you talk about 2-3 years? Even with non B2P game the average is 1,5 to 2 years. In fact WoW was one of the longest to wait with it’s first expansion (of the bigger mmo’s) and that took 2 years 1 month and 25 days. So yes I very much take the financial part into consideration.

echo.2053:

in my opinion free to play – permanent access even (with a one time purchase) with no subscription costs to play.

what are you even trying to argue in terms of pay model? Regardless if they release 100 free expansions,the game would never “really be f2p”. You already spent at least $60. If your trying to support the 100% free model… your in the wrong game.

They stopped supporting gw1 because of gw2. That is just business sense. It should be obvious that gw1 could never fully become f2p….what company in their right mind would refund millions? They went from subscription play to non subscription play.

It should of be rather obvious that the gem shop comment wasn’t directed at you, perhaps it was towards the other poster that was quoted, you know the one you “sarcastically” replied to and I was just to lazy to separate them. You made several posts showing your general feeling for the gem shop ( that it is worse than gw1 shop – just so that we are on the same track) and your first thought is that my response – that was poking fun of the gw2 shop – was directed towards you? As Walter from The Big Lebowski said " The world does not stop and start at your convenience".

The fact that I responded first to something mid-way through the post before responding to something at the top of the post should of rung a bell no?

Well I figured you talked to me because you quoted me. Seems like a general rule of forums isn’kitten

echo.2053:

Devata.6589:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Devata.6589:

If they would base there whole payment model on expansion there was not even a need for all that stuff in the cash-shop. Now they do not really have a choice.

You know GW1 had a cash shop too, right? A lot worse one than GW2’s, at that.

Yeah a lot lot lot worse then GW2. lol

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_In-Game_Store

Pretty much in-line with what I would expect from a B2P cash-shop. There are a few things I would not want to see in there like the mini’s, the costumes and a few unlocks but overall it’s way less then what we see in the current shop.

Oow and no, the fact that you can use ingame gold for the current game does not make up for that!

Wait what? lol. b2p? err pretty sure you mean pay to play, games usualy require you to buy them in order to play >_>.

Gw1 shop should look like a pay to play shop because it was orignally a play to play game before moving to free to play.

gw1 shop is worse than gw2 shop? well its clear that you never actually played gw1 otherwise pretty sure you would of said the opposite.

gw1 shop
You don’t have to gamble for the skins you wanted
Skins were unique – granted it was only costumes

gw2 shop
You get the pleasure of gambling for a ticket to get the skin that you would like, if your unlucky youll get a scrap in which case youll only need to gamble 9 more times !!!!! unless the item you would like is out of season in which case only 49!!!!!!!

Your desire for spending money for one thing only to get something else that you come across daily? get allured in by the new color dyes only to instead get those common dyes wooooo yeah.

Last but certainly not least: Need a new style? get ready for the all new, never seen before, newly designed wear – your current style that costed prolly 14 gold total except with FLAMES!!!!! at only 20 times the price. then next month instead of red flames we are gonna color them black to make it look like smoke.

lol wow can’t even talk about gw2 store without poking fun. You don’t have to buy a single thing in either games store to play.

No I mean B2P. Meaning games that use game and expansion sales as there main source of income. Think of a game like GW1. And now most F2P games don’t require you to buy them. Anyway the F2P mainly points to games using the cash-shop as there main source of income. So maybe cash-shop games would have been a better name for them.

GW2 has not become a cash-shop game but would have been better of being a true B2P game.

And why the heck would I mean P2P it we are talking about GW! what was a B2P game?

“Gw1 shop should look like a pay to play shop because it was originally a play to play game before moving to free to play.”
GW1 was B2P and still is B2P. Never really became F2P. You could argue that now they stopped supporting it the main income is from the cash-shop but thats.. well because they stopt really supporting it.

“gw1 shop is worse than gw2 shop? well its clear that you never actually played gw1 otherwise pretty sure you would of said the opposite.”
I said the opposite. GW2 shop is worse. Hyper Cutter said the GW1 shop was worse.

I think you should be talking to Hyper Cutter, not to me.

Or wasn’t it clear that “Yeah a lot lot lot worse then GW2” was sarcasm? You know the “lol” and the whole explanation after it should have made that clear one would think.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

“Other MMOs work differently then Gw2. They put an expiry date on content and by the end of it you got no choice but to either stop playing or buy an expansion.” Really? Explain. Never noticed an expiry date on content in ‘other’ mmo’s.

It really needs explaining? Finished a quest cannot be done again, any content that is my level – 3 levels gives no XP, no rewards. mobs my level -5 levels can be one shot etc.. That mechanism funnels all players towards the same end game content because at max level there is just those end tier raids that are still viable.

Because people enjoy doing the same events over and over again? No, also in GW2 most people end up in some ‘end-game’. Sometimes that is grinding one event but they don’t keep repeating events or doing lower level events for the fun (maybe for map completion but also then only once per character, just like with quest). So that makes no difference whatsoever.

And those other games also allow for a lot of repeatable content.
Not to mention that in ‘those other games’ there are a lot reasons to be active in those lower level zones. For reputations for rewards or to get a special mount or a special mini or a special skin or a special recipe and so on and so on. Of course that is also until you have what you want but might in fact keep you playing longer there then GW2 does because it does not have a lot of that sort of rewards hidden all over the world. They put that mainly in the cash-shop.

So no, there is not an expiry date on content in those other games more as it is here.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Why would that be? If they make sure they also update the current zones with stuff to keep it relevant (thats indeed what many games forget to do) there will be just as much reason to be there as there is to be anywhere. Sure new stuff will attract more players, but if thats a problem the LS patches (and the two maps) would have had exactly the same effect and so that would not change.

That’s precisely the problem however. You’re right the problem already exists to a degree but an expansion will make it that much worst. Lets say they release Cantha and make LS updates equally distributed between Kryta and Cantha. That means people who didnt buy the expansion will feel jaded cause now they’re getting 1/2 the updates and people who did buy the expansion will feel jaded cause only 1/2 the updates are supporting the expansion they bought. Anet will burn out even more cause now they need to support 2 different storylines and 2 different art start with the living story.

Different story lines? No, just make some updates to existing zones, update some events (to also make them interesting for max level players). But obviously 90% of the new stuff should be in the new expansion. And if those who did not buy the expansions feel jaded they can buy the expansion. Not to mention that at this moment also a lot of people are bored.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

If there is not new stuff for them in the expansion they might not buy it (so make sure there is stuff for them) but if thats the case it would still not split people up because they will be in the same place as they where before anyway. With our without that expansion.

If you do stuff that exclusive to the expansion like a new WvW area or new sPvP maps that only people with the expansion have access to you’ll fragment PvP players It may even be fatal for WvW on some servers that already find it hard to field enough players to the existing battle ground imagine needed twice as many.

All these assumptions of you are only true if a much smaller group of people will buy the expansions. An assumption that seems very unlikely. If the expansion is good by far most active players will buy it.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

To not have a cash-shop focus, to get more people back. Oow and for many people it’s not enough.

No cash shop focus is not realistic. Every single B2P game out there has a cash shop, well actually every MMO out there regardless of business model has a cash shop (except for wildstar I believe).

So because most games try to earn some additional money with cash-shops it’s unrealistic to have none? Anyway while that already is untrue the keyword here was focus! I did not say No cash-shop. They can still have a cash-shop where they sell some stuff like additional character slots, name-changer, race-changer, total make-over, expansions to the game, guild-name changer. All that “our of game” sort of stuff would be fine.

Labjax.2465:

Devata.6589:

“Is it though? How often have you seen a largely free-to-play game use the traditional box-selling expansion model?” Funny here is that when I about 1,5 year ago said this game was more a F2P game then B2P because they focused on a cash-shop not on expansion sales I got half the forum against me because it was really B2P. Now it has become the standard definition what indeed makes more sense. But it’s also where you make your first wrong assumption. You see, the expansions would be if the game would be truly B2P and not F2P so also not focus on the cash-shop as they have now. In stead a focus on expansions and because of that those expansions would make sense.

Also the fact that some people might not be able to pay the game is not really interesting for a company. More then enough will be able to and it’s no charity. Not if a large number of players would not be able to effort it, it would be different but you can expect that by far most people who where able to buy the original game would be able to also buy the expansion a year later.

I am not sure what type of revisions you are talking about. Again, it would make a lot of sense of standalone expansion but not so much for a real expansion that just adds something to the original game. The very few people without the expansion only do not have access to those new things. And when they manage to get the money they will have access to it.

By revisions, what comes to mind is a game that started out sub model and then it went F2P, and when it went F2P, it made all of the map-related expansion content available to everybody. It then had all of the other cool stuff (such as new professions) behind a paywall.

That’s the kind of thing I’m imagining; you make it so all of the existing players can still play with each other, even in new content, but the rest of it costs money.

If you’re wondering how that would ever work, just think about how F2P works in the first place (or even B2P): Most of the long-term revenue comes from a relatively small percentage of players that has a lot of money.

As for the definition, I understand cause I got jumped on once for referring to this game as essentially F2P without adding any caveats. It’s kind of silly cause the only distinguishable difference between this and a F2P game is that you have to buy the box before you have permanent, full access.

How that would work? Again, i’m talking about a B2P model, not F2P. So then most of the long-term revenue would come from all the players, not from a small percentage of players like in a F2P game. (not sure how small that is because F2P game tent to scare those not willing to spend money on that sort of stuff away).

nexxe.7081:

Vitus Dance.4509:

nexxe.7081:

Archeage, are doing well with population numbers

Sorry, just had to quote that! lol

So you’re saying that those MMOs would have a higher population if they were subscription only? or even b2p? You’re delusional if you think so. I wasn’t comparing their numbers to WoW. I was comparing them to their subscription model. The exception would be AA of course, since it launched as both a f2p/sub model.

I am 100% sure that if ArcheAge would be B2P and so also would not have things like the labourpoints because they would not use a F2P model (so cash-shop and or premium membership and so on (see labourpoints)) that ArcheAge would have many more players as they do now. 100% sure of that.

It are those things that are scaring people away from ArcheAge (and many other F2P games) and they are there because thats how they earn there money. So if they made money with game and expansion sales these things where likely not there (just as they where not there when the game was P2P what is bad for other reasons.)

Fernling.1729:

I think the SPvP part of the game going F2P would be pretty awesome for the game. Right now SPvP is dead. If they did do that, they should find a way to heavily monetize it.

If the SPvP part is so dead as you say that maybe the problem is with SPvP not being fun and if so then maybe solving that would be the solution, not making the game F2P. Because if SPvP is not fun then F2P will temporary get some new people to the game who then see it’s not fun and then leave again.

Don’t you think that makes much more sense?

nexxe.7081:

There is no doubt this game would benefit from f2p.

It would probably bring in even more revenue than it currently is. There’s a reason why Tera, Rift, Swtor, Archeage, are doing well with population numbers, and that’s because it’s free.

It’s not like GW2 doesn’t have a Gem Store anyway, which is probably their primary source of income.

Well you are right about one part. The cash-shop focus is already there so it would not do much additional harm there. In that way it’s already a F2P game sadly. But lets hope they turn back to the B2P model they promised. Oow and those games went to F2P because there P2P model failed.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Devata.6589:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Devata.6589:

Nah I rather have them making it a true B2P games. Getting rid of (most of) the cash-shop and start releasing expansions on a yearly basis.

What’s in the cash shop that is worth getting rid of?

@ Above, what’s a “real” player? Someone that bought something and cant put up with bots, children, and gold sellers because those three entities totally don’t already exist everywhere?

Getting rid of in the cash-shop. Thats all the stuff that should be in the game. Removing the never ending gold grind in this game and making content fun to do because it can reward that cool [now cash shop item X].

So the question should be.. what can stay in the cahs-shop. Name-changer, character slots, total make-over kits, Deluxe Edition. That is about it I guess. Maybe the boosters but they could also be removed from the game. All the other stuff should move to the game, then remove the gem > gold and when done correctly the game would reward doing content and remove the need for the endless gold-grind. There are also some things that could be added to the cash-shop like a race-changer or a guild-name changer.

Not everything would have to be drops, some things could be put in crafting or even a new craft could be created. All the instruments for example could be part of a musician craft. Also the Tempest skins would go great with that craft because they all look a little like being based in music notes. The game could be made a lot better that way with way less currency-grind. The yearly expansions that would then come to generate the income would in addition add nice new content to the game.

There was a thread a couple weeks ago that focused on people that hated doing aspects of the game they hated for prizes they wanted.

A centralized shop for those items makes them bonuses for doing what you like, IMO; and also provides a secondary income stream.

Pulling that stuff from the Gem store would probably upset the economy as well. If the items in the shop are things people rarely buy, gold will inflate as the use for gems diminishes, as far as the conversion rate goes.

That might carry over to the Trading post and make everything else a grind instead.

Doings content people like.. Because everybody loves brainlessly grinding for gold kitten many do (because they feel forced to do it). Thats also why there are so many complains about it. You see, I do not like doing a dungeon for gold to then buy it, but I do like to do a dungeon knowing there is a specific drop in there I like. Besides, if the items are not account bound (what I think some should be and some should not be) they will still end up on the TP and so grinding gold to buy it is still an option. What makes your point kinda invalid.

If you are afraid there will be coming to much gold to the game you could decrease the gold rewards because you are upping the item rewards with these items. However you seem to forget that I also said gems to gold should then go. That would would likely already resolve much of that.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Devata.6589:

Nah I rather have them making it a true B2P games. Getting rid of (most of) the cash-shop and start releasing expansions on a yearly basis.

What’s in the cash shop that is worth getting rid of?

@ Above, what’s a “real” player? Someone that bought something and cant put up with bots, children, and gold sellers because those three entities totally don’t already exist everywhere?

Getting rid of in the cash-shop. Thats all the stuff that should be in the game. Removing the never ending gold grind in this game and making content fun to do because it can reward that cool [now cash shop item X].

So the question should be.. what can stay in the cahs-shop. Name-changer, character slots, total make-over kits, Deluxe Edition. That is about it I guess. Maybe the boosters but they could also be removed from the game. All the other stuff should move to the game, then remove the gem > gold and when done correctly the game would reward doing content and remove the need for the endless gold-grind. There are also some things that could be added to the cash-shop like a race-changer or a guild-name changer.

Not everything would have to be drops, some things could be put in crafting or even a new craft could be created. All the instruments for example could be part of a musician craft. Also the Tempest skins would go great with that craft because they all look a little like being based in music notes. The game could be made a lot better that way with way less currency-grind. The yearly expansions that would then come to generate the income would in addition add nice new content to the game.

Nah I rather have them making it a true B2P games. Getting rid of (most of) the cash-shop and start releasing expansions on a yearly basis.

1 The ability to build your own guild-hall so every guild hall will be different and represents what the guild stands for and gives guilds more a place in the world. This of-course tights into cosmetic progression and showing of your guild(-hall).

2 Stuff to do with the guild and goals to work towards. This is basically the cosmetic progression from 1 but made in a fun way that gets guilds to really have many activities to do. From building and decorating the guild-hall to unlocking the blue-prints to do so.
That of course also means no cash-shop involvement because that would undermine these aspects (grinding gold is not fun, buying with money is no gameplay and cash-shop items tent to be better then the ingame items taking away the value of the ingame items / blue-prints / unlocks).

3 A place where you can hang with your guild, do stuff, role play (what means items you can use like a chair you can sit on or a radio where can dance on the music) but is useful at the same time, providing things like guild-bank, or the guild-calendar and so on.. So just a place you want to hang out in.

Spectre.6821:

Foreward: The following is the opinion of yet another end user and is no way affiliated with ANET, NC SOFT, or any of their subsidaries. It is a personal opinion and should be counted as such.

Personally I believe an expansion in the classical sense of the term is unneeded and rather foolish at this time. I started GW2 like many others during beta and have watched the game mature, grow, dwindle, grow again, and etc. The one thing A net has maintained consistency on, and declared before the release of this game, was that they wanted to create a living world with a living story. That is why npcs will continue quest lines with or without character involvement, why season 1 living story is unavailable, and why I feel living story 2 should also have been limited time content. The players sojourn into this world, but it doesn’t revolve around them. Other hero’s will answer the call if you are resting in bermuda, or not yet old enough to venture out and seek a name for yourself when the events transpire.

In keeping with that philosophy, how could a net add a profession, race, continent, and/or etc. Without subjecting their world, their story, to unneeded time shifts? Which makes more sense, we finish up with mordremeth, (or hit a brick wall), and then find the Tengu are under a full assault by Primordius’ forces. Facing extinction they turn to the other races of Tyra for help, and as well as joining the pact furthermore offer to train others in their profession “Samurai” in exchange for assistance. This would then open an arc where you delve into the depths of Tyria and find the remnants of Dwarven society who also come to your aid in defeating the Elder dragon. With him slaughtered the dwarves are then freed from their gaes and return to flesh from stone. Not only do they also become a playable race, but then add another class, or what not.

All of this is and more is possible with the living story. And yes it will take time, but another factor to consider here is scope. Compared to its competitors and forebears GW2 is a graphically breathtaking game. Adding a new area that can be jumped around in with obstacles and etc isn’t as simple as it is with the cartoonist graphics of most other games. Especially compared to something like WoW Gw2 has more finite resources. Assume WoW has 3.5 million players. Each pays a subscription fee of 15$ a month. That’s over 45 million a month. Remove operating costs etc. And they still have a stupidly higher revenue. A net can not win going toe to toe with the same model of content, so they need something different. LS covers that ground.

again, Just some idiots 2€ on the interwebs.

“The one thing A net has maintained consistency on, and declared before the release of this game, was that they wanted to create a living world with a living story.” A living and breathing world, yes. The Living story? No that came in after release of the game.

“Without subjecting their world, their story, to unneeded time shifts?” As if that is not happening now? And it;s even more noticeable. With expansion they usually have a story that explains the sudden change but in this living story? Why did they manage to repair LA a little bid in the first few weeks but now while workers are busy there for months they have not make any progress.. until the next patch where Anet decides to fix LA a little more. That was something they did do much betting in the beginning but strange “time shifts” that make no sense are very common now in GW2.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

TexZero.7910:

~

~

Its actually a valid concern. Other MMOs work differently then Gw2. They put an expiry date on content and by the end of it you got no choice but to either stop playing or buy an expansion. Gw2 doesnt do that and that makes a big difference. Even if absolutely everyone buys the expansion you’ll still have problems because of that. The majority of people will undoubtily be playing that expansion content so if today I am in the mood of finishing up those couple of zones I skipped I will most likely find a ghost zone (for lack of a better word) and as we saw from the feedback that led to the megaserver that was already an issue with 25 or so zones imagine twice that or 3 times down the line. of course we did get megaservers and that fixed the issue somewhat.

another aspect is obviously not everyone is going to buy the expansion. Financial difficulties, Mainly PvP/WvW player so dont see the use of buying an expansion that mainly takes me to Cantha (one can dream ), The Living Story is enough content for me so why spend the extra money?, I only play sporadically cant justify the fee, I will wait for it to go on sale, I am spending most of my time in Game X so until I get fed up with that no point in buying the expansion, I am on a personal crusade again ncsoft execs getting luxury cars… whatever, people can have many reasons for not buying it. That too will fracture players a bit.

I do think with the megaservers these are not big issues anymore as that technology alone increase concentration by a factor of about 25x and I dont think there will be such a big fracture either way but it was surely a valid concern before megaservers and not some imaginary issue with 0 impact.

“Other MMOs work differently then Gw2. They put an expiry date on content and by the end of it you got no choice but to either stop playing or buy an expansion.” Really? Explain. Never noticed an expiry date on content in ‘other’ mmo’s.

“The majority of people will undoubtily be playing that expansion content so if today I am in the mood of finishing up those couple of zones I skipped I will most likely find a ghost zone” Why would that be? If they make sure they also update the current zones with stuff to keep it relevant (thats indeed what many games forget to do) there will be just as much reason to be there as there is to be anywhere. Sure new stuff will attract more players, but if thats a problem the LS patches (and the two maps) would have had exactly the same effect and so that would not change.

“as we saw from the feedback that led to the megaserver that was already an issue with 25 or so zones imagine twice that or 3 times down the line.” The problem that there where less people in the world? Maybe an expansion would solve that problem getting more people in. Not increase the problem. Maybe that as the world expands people get spread out more (what is not a bad thing imho, but obviously you may disagree with that) but still it would be good to also update those existing maps to keep them relevant so they would still as well attract people. There is not reason that would be impossible.

“Mainly PvP/WvW player so dont see the use of buying an expansion that mainly takes me to Cantha” If there is not new stuff for them in the expansion they might not buy it (so make sure there is stuff for them) but if thats the case it would still not split people up because they will be in the same place as they where before anyway. With our without that expansion.

“The Living Story is enough content for me so why spend the extra money?” To not have a cash-shop focus, to get more people back. Oow and for many people it’s not enough.

So you have a hole post to tell why it’s a valid reason to then end that with the note that it’s not a valid reason anymore but it was. And not megaservers have not much to do with it. If they would not have enough players so servers or maps got empty especially after an expansions they could have simply merged multiple servers like most MMO’s do. So megaserver or not it would not be a problem.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Devata.6589:

If they would base there whole payment model on expansion there was not even a need for all that stuff in the cash-shop. Now they do not really have a choice.

You know GW1 had a cash shop too, right? A lot worse one than GW2’s, at that.

Yeah a lot lot lot worse then GW2. lol

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_In-Game_Store

Pretty much in-line with what I would expect from a B2P cash-shop. There are a few things I would not want to see in there like the mini’s, the costumes and a few unlocks but overall it’s way less then what we see in the current shop.

Oow and no, the fact that you can use ingame gold for the current game does not make up for that!

Fernling.1729:

Labjax.2465:

Devata.6589:

Not to be a meany but you know this is a really bad reason that is kinda nonsense. When you expand a world you might not allow people in that part of the game if they don’t have the expansion but in the rest of the world everybody still plays together. Also in reality most players who are actively playing will buy the expansion.

This reasoning is really something that has born on these forums here and are based on an interview Anet once gave where they said they didn’t want the expansions as in GW1 because that would divide up the player-base. That where however standalone expansion. Anet then even said they would have normal expansions for sure.

Anyway: this game needs an expansion. It needed an expansion when the game was a year old and we needed a second expansion about now and a third next year. And then no focus on the cash-shop. That would have been great.

Is it though? How often have you seen a largely free-to-play game use the traditional box-selling expansion model? (e.g. where you buy the expansion and that gives you access to all of the new content, including any new maps and so on) I mean, yeah, this game is technically box-to-play, not free-to-play, but once you have the box, you have access to everything. It’s a one-time purchase.

A box expansion, even with a game like this, definitely could (plausibly) fracture the playerbase. It’s totally plausible that there are players who: Could afford the original box but can’t afford more, put a lot of money into the game but their financial circumstances have changed, etc.

Don’t get me wrong. That’s not necessarily a reason to not release an expansion. It’s just a reason why the traditional sub-game-box-expansion model will probably have some revisions to it, if Anet releases an expansion for this game.

SWTOR is largely F2P and has expansion packs that they charge for. DCUO also have DLC they charge for. Everquest 1 is F2P and has expansions. Not too sure what their F2P is like though.
I’m sure there are more. I only pay attention to a small amount of mmos these days.

Biggest difference between a F2P and B2P game would imo be how often then release an expansion and how much work would go into cash-shop stuff. F2P game would have less expansions (that cost money) but more stuff in the cash-shop.

B2P games have more expansion but no focus on the cash-shop.

Labjax.2465:

Devata.6589:

Not to be a meany but you know this is a really bad reason that is kinda nonsense. When you expand a world you might not allow people in that part of the game if they don’t have the expansion but in the rest of the world everybody still plays together. Also in reality most players who are actively playing will buy the expansion.

This reasoning is really something that has born on these forums here and are based on an interview Anet once gave where they said they didn’t want the expansions as in GW1 because that would divide up the player-base. That where however standalone expansion. Anet then even said they would have normal expansions for sure.

Anyway: this game needs an expansion. It needed an expansion when the game was a year old and we needed a second expansion about now and a third next year. And then no focus on the cash-shop. That would have been great.

Is it though? How often have you seen a largely free-to-play game use the traditional box-selling expansion model? (e.g. where you buy the expansion and that gives you access to all of the new content, including any new maps and so on) I mean, yeah, this game is technically box-to-play, not free-to-play, but once you have the box, you have access to everything. It’s a one-time purchase.

A box expansion, even with a game like this, definitely could (plausibly) fracture the playerbase. It’s totally plausible that there are players who: Could afford the original box but can’t afford more, put a lot of money into the game but their financial circumstances have changed, etc.

Don’t get me wrong. That’s not necessarily a reason to not release an expansion. It’s just a reason why the traditional sub-game-box-expansion model will probably have some revisions to it, if Anet releases an expansion for this game.

“Is it though? How often have you seen a largely free-to-play game use the traditional box-selling expansion model?” Funny here is that when I about 1,5 year ago said this game was more a F2P game then B2P because they focused on a cash-shop not on expansion sales I got half the forum against me because it was really B2P. Now it has become the standard definition what indeed makes more sense. But it’s also where you make your first wrong assumption. You see, the expansions would be if the game would be truly B2P and not F2P so also not focus on the cash-shop as they have now. In stead a focus on expansions and because of that those expansions would make sense.

Also the fact that some people might not be able to pay the game is not really interesting for a company. More then enough will be able to and it’s no charity. Not if a large number of players would not be able to effort it, it would be different but you can expect that by far most people who where able to buy the original game would be able to also buy the expansion a year later.

I am not sure what type of revisions you are talking about. Again, it would make a lot of sense of standalone expansion but not so much for a real expansion that just adds something to the original game. The very few people without the expansion only do not have access to those new things. And when they manage to get the money they will have access to it.

Fernling.1729:

I think WoW is a great example of what an expansion can do to reel in new/old players.
Since the last investor call they have increased their monthly subscription average by 600k players. Imagine what it will be when the expansion actually launches.

Nothing happened for an increase of that size besides the hype of a new expansion. The game was stale for people playing since MoP and just like that, an expansion rejuvenates the entire game.

In fact GW1 was a good example. Every expansion earned on average 100% of the initial sales. If we would translate that to GW2 and assuming they had an expansion once a year they would have earned more then they have earned now. And we would not have the cash-shop focus. (well there would be no need for it at least) So likely have a better game for it. Win win. However, LS and cash-shop was the road they did go for.

Mesket.5728:

I don’t have problems with no expansion policy while they keep updating periodically.

I do have one comment about it, in an expansion, the ratio between ingame rewards and gemstore items would’ve been different. If you take everything that was added in one place and the other now, you will see a huge imbalance between both. In an expansion, content would’ve been more even.

If they would base there whole payment model on expansion there was not even a need for all that stuff in the cash-shop. Now they do not really have a choice.

TexZero.7910:

Box expansions tend to fracture the community by dividing those who have, from those that do not. This is unhealthy for a persistent world, like Guild Wars 2.

Not to be a meany but you know this is a really bad reason that is kinda nonsense. When you expand a world you might not allow people in that part of the game if they don’t have the expansion but in the rest of the world everybody still plays together. Also in reality most players who are actively playing will buy the expansion.

This reasoning is really something that has born on these forums here and are based on an interview Anet once gave where they said they didn’t want the expansions as in GW1 because that would divide up the player-base. That where however standalone expansion. Anet then even said they would have normal expansions for sure.

Anyway: this game needs an expansion. It needed an expansion when the game was a year old and we needed a second expansion about now and a third next year. And then no focus on the cash-shop. That would have been great.

maddoctor.2738:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Retro.6831:

Baltzenger.2467:

The way I see it, who gets the plot shouldn’t be based on this idea of prestige, that’s why I say it shouldn’t be quantified.
I would rather have a crossover system that linkes GH further with other mechanics of the game.

Some possible things that I would like to see:
- Winners of a sPvP tournament getting a plot on the heart of the mists to put their Guild Hall.
- WvW related feats that allow you to have your Guild Hall on a certain tactical location.
- Raid like content that will allow a guild to have an specific plot in the world to put their GH.

All with decay systems, based on each type of feat required to conquer this plots.

I don’t see GH as an isolated system at all, therefore, I don’t agree with having it’s “endgame” be tied only to what this particular system offers.

The whole point of the Prestige concept is to pull threads from all of the various game modes (Dungeons, WvW, sPVP, PvE, Crafting, etc.) and weave them into a unified system (not isolated, as you describe) to create something that’s potentially more rewarding for guilds.

The answer to “who gets the Guild Hall plot?” should be “whoever has the best Guild Hall,” and the prestige suggestion is one approach towards that.

His idea does have some merits though. I had forgotten to factor this in earlier but how do we prevent farming guilds from getting their guildhall into a top spot?
I’m talking about
-EOTM Karma train
-Any champion train/event chain
-PvP win trading
These activities should not allow a guild into the top spots. So if you added his requirements on top of the prestige system it could act as a good gate to knock out farmers from the running.

There was a suggestion earlier in the thread to use “blueprints” to get items/upgrades for the Guild Hall. By not putting Blueprints in EotM or Champion lootbags we avoid part of this problem, make Blueprints available from certain types of content only (that isn’t as easily farmed) or at least SOME of the Blueprints, not all of them.

PvP win trading isn’t hard to solve either, only tournament wins should count so “fixing” it will be hard. Also, there is the possibility to tie PVP Prestige to the actual PVP rank (on the leaderboards)

Yeah that was the original idea about blue-prints all along. Or at least that most blue-prints work as unlocks that you unlock by completing specific content.

Now in some cases it might be useful as drop and that it unlocks when you loot it (much like you unlock a skin as soon as you buy it from a karma vendor) but then it would also be based on the content. So in EotM only EotM themed stuff would drop. And you would only do that with the more common things where you have many different skins of. So best stuff unlocks with specific content.

But lets say there are 40 blue-prints for EotM themed walls (or decoration) that are all basically the same just another skin or another texture. Only then you would do it as a drop (and still based the drop on the content, not word drops).

That would prevent the grinding rnadom content for blue-prints while still allowing for some blue-print nice drops.

Proposal Overview
Letting people chat with guild-members in the guild-hall even when they are not in the game by letting them log in on the site or using an API.
(Of course it would also be possible to let them chat in guild-chat)

Goal of Proposal
Allowing for more communication and bounding of guild-members by letting them also chat when they are not able to play the game.

Proposal Functionality
If there is a special guild-hall chat (else use the guild-chat) allow people to chat in there without being online in the game. This can be done on the official GW2 site but preferably it would also be made availible in the API so people can make a chat-function on there guild-site.

Associated Risks
Depending on implementation it could have security risk. For this reason I would suggest that in case of the API option it works with one password a guild can set and guild-members can log is using the that password and an alias. This prevents them having to use there own user-name and password on possible bad protected sites.

I wanted to add that most of the ‘building blocks’ or ‘models’ or whatever you name it (the stuff that you unlock the blue-prints for) is the stuff that is for the most part already in the game.

Things like a nice statue of Teq could be added and a nice tower and so on but look around you in the game, the models the game is made out of. Light post, walls, fences, fire pits, Halloween decoration, tree’s, plants, flags, little rocks, sofas, wheelbarrows, crates, tents, barrels, buckets, tables, candles, beer, beds and so on and so on. The stuff Aned used to build up the world.

Using mainly those has multiple major benefits. Reduce of development-time, There is a huge amount of them, you could build something from in the game and every-thing stays in style with the game. For some however I think they need to add animations, like making chairs sittable what is then also useful for the game-world itself.

There are many more items that could use animations but chairs, sofas and beds would have the first priority I think. That would add some more work but if those tree would go first other animations can be added slowly. It would be awesome to be able to place and pick up beer from a table and drink it. But that might be a little to hard seeing how everything works at this moment.

munkiman.3068:

The more i think about decor and furnishings as a “progression mechanic”, the less i feel it’s as appropriate for halls. I’d much rather see something like that in personal instances.

I think it can be fun and interesting while it indeed would have a higher focus in personal homing then in guild-halls.

So I would add it (I like to have chairs in a guild-hall and some nice other stuff) but focus even more on other things. To me the guild-hall itself should be the progressing. Unlocking things for the guild-hall so you can build a different guild-hall or and functions like portals and so on. Decoration however can be a big part of it because it is also what gives a look to a guild-hall so to that extent furnishings do matter as thats part of the decoration.

Retro.6831:

~

I posted that about 8,5 hour later so I figured I waited enough. I also don’t dismiss dismiss your suggestion. I only talked about the progression part.

Also the part of “you get is as you play” is not really true. In general if I would really want to get the most items I would like in this game the only option I would have would be to grind gold (or buy it with gems). Now for influence that would not be a problem for our guild, yes we would likely earn enough along the way in fact we did safe up influence just in case it would be needed for guild-halls. However for smaller guilds it would be grinding to get the influence they need but more importantly it would nod ad any incentive to really do stuff.

For me grinding means doing something unrelated to what you want to get many times to get a currency to then buy what you need. Farming on the other hand is doing something multiple times working directly towards what you want. I don’t mind farming but I dislike grinding. However most of the guild-hall stuff I would place behind unlocks. Complete a dungeon, unlock blue-print X. And a little bid of farming for the smaller things. A wall (specific skin) or one of the many Halloween mask you can hang on the wall and so on that our guild can farm the Halloween dungeon for because those unlocks drop there. It just adds much more value to the game then.. Well we have people running around and repping us and they to completely unrelated stuff be somehow we get influence for that and with that we then unlock stuff for the guild-hall.

“Influence works because it’s a basic, universal currency that players generate for their guild simply by playing the game.” You see what I mean.. It’s as boring as it sounds.

“I view Influence as very good at unlocking basic features” Yeah me to, just not for more specific things like unlocking things for your guild-hall, only to unlock your basics.
However we have a different idea of basic I think, looking at your previous post. For me it means the basic starting point and maybe basic unlocks like a guild-bank. But you are talking about much more “(“Architecture II, III, IV, etc.”) & having a large number of modular ‘content packs’. Think of them as Lego sets; they are purchased individually & built around a specific theme, but fit together with all of the other pieces. As you purchase one set, the cost of all others (either all sets or just sets within that specific theme) increases; choosing what features you want becomes part of the decision making process.”

To me that seems like building your hole guild-hall is based on that influence, and then some nice little gimmicks like furniture you would want to do in another way. Imho all that should unlock in the game and nothing of it should be a purchase.

“One of the notes for my follow-up post is that completing various activities as a guild (PVP, WvW, whatever) reduces the influence cost of related Content Packs. Guilds who want WvW-themed Content Packs on the cheap would WvW together, for example. This extends across all game types.”
Again the purchasing and currency things. Sorry but to me personally that feels extremely boring and like I said if there is one big negative to this game at this moment it’s exactly that.. All the currency stuff. Don’t work directly to what you want but get a number (currency) up and then buy it. That does not feel like rewarding but necessary work.

Just play WvW and do something specific there to earn that WvW thing. An example I said before. Claim a keep in WvW and hold the keep for 1 full week to unlock a portal to that map. That would be a thousand times more interesting and engaging and rewarding and more fun to unlock that portal then to just do some WvW to get a currency up (or down) to then buy it. But thats how I see it.

Retro.6831:

On Progression
I’m going to assume that the scope of guild halls is such that the layout of the rooms can be modified but that brick-by-brick construction has too many potential complications to work within the context of Guild Wars 2. A guild hall is essentially a set of modular template rooms that players can move about their plot.

In my mind, this is best accomplished by replacing the existing vertical structure (“Architecture II, III, IV, etc.”) & having a large number of modular ‘content packs’. Think of them as Lego sets; they are purchased individually & built around a specific theme, but fit together with all of the other pieces. As you purchase one set, the cost of all others (either all sets or just sets within that specific theme) increases; choosing what features you want becomes part of the decision making process.

For example, say I have my “Starter” set that all guilds receive for free, which includes the plot, a few basic rooms & a few decorative / landscaping options (since you can edit the whole plot). I’m happy with the hall itself, but want a more elaborate outdoor space. So I would spend influence to unlock the “Landscaping” set, which would include a variety of features built around the outdoors. For example;

I don’t think the progression as you see it is so great. It feels like yet another boring currency grind. As if we don’t already have way to many of those in GW2. In fact I see it as one of the big negatives in GW2.

And then you even add that putting stuff in the gem-store would be an option. But that does not add to the game that reduces. Buying it with money is not playing a game and grinding gold to buy it (what would make most sense because what guild-members is else going to pay it?) is again grind.

Not to mention that you will likely see that the part you buy from the gem-store is just a little better then the one you could get in the game.

No I would still prefer the blue-prints that are unlock-able in the game. That seems like a much more interesting way to go that also get guild-members stuff to do other then grind grind grind influence or some other currency.

Thats how I see it.

Baltzenger.2467:

What about Tixx’s Infinirarium? It shows that airships can be as big as castles, and have very interesting shapes.

Also, its mechanic, if Guild Halls would be airships, then you can move them, map instances (open world maps) could have air space trafic, and a limit at so, so if the air space is full, you enter another instance of the megaserver, but as an object, not as part of the map itself.

All this, while the “inside” of the Airship is an instance, again, just like Tixx’s Infinirarium.

http://www.devilsmmo.com/sites/default/files/uploads/images/guildwars2/wintersday/wintersday-concept-art-3.jpg

Yeah that is what I meant with how you could still visualize the guild halls (if they where airships) even if it was instanced. So then the guild-halls would still be the beacon. You would only not have the feeling of really flying and seeing outer guild-halls (like if it was open world in sky-maps). But in the world you could see your ship fly by randomly.

Donari.5237:

Guys, guys! Remember to stay on-topic, per the OP rules.

Regarding open world/instanced mixing, this could well satisfy everyone. At least, so long as the open world ones don’t dominate or fill up the landscape, that being one of the major downsides to open world. But if a few are there for those of a mind to compete to control them, while the rest of us can just stay out of the scrimmage, that could help a lot to resolve the dichotomies of interest.

Just please posit ways to prevent flame wars and bad feelings over who won and who lost. WvW works on that by the regular resets of starting positions, but the main maps can’t be made all identical to facilitate not caring which specific keeps one holds.

The question is if ‘a few’ is even possible. You see the air-maps would solve the space problem but still apparently that would not be possible. So maybe space is not what is the issue.

Then again, we don’t know what is so it’s hard to know what would work / be possible and what wouldn’t.

timmyf.1490:

Devata.6589:

timmyf.1490:

Devata.6589:

timmyf.1490:

I’m not saying there should not be airships. I’m saying there should be a lot more than just airships. We’ve exhausted a lot of pages talking about airships and I’d love to hear other ideas. Just my two cents. That’s all I have to say on the matter, I’ll go back to lurking now.

What daft inquisitor is saying is that all those other idea’s could be implemented as airships giving the added ability that they are not fixed in one place.

Right. A guild hall in the caldera of a volcano. In an airship.

Yeah, like this: http://static.planetminecraft.com/files/resource_media/screenshot/1222/InPVIS_2389564.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eUFLw9TQSQ

Do not want. Dislike. Please, no.

Just my opinion, but I would not appreciate something like that in Guild Wars 2.

Thats perfectly fine. Just wanted to show you that it would be possible as airship and what some people mean when they talk about airships.

(Not that it had to be in mine-craft bits, don’t think anybody wants that, but it was the best image / video of a volcano as floating airship I could find )

Iason Evan.3806:

I am only down with Airship Guild Halls if we get parachutes and we can parachute back down to the map that our guild hall is flying in.

Guess that would be doable. But then you get back more to the realm of open world airships. Still you could visualize a map below you and when you jump off have an animation that plays while loading in the map.

timmyf.1490:

Devata.6589:

timmyf.1490:

I’m not saying there should not be airships. I’m saying there should be a lot more than just airships. We’ve exhausted a lot of pages talking about airships and I’d love to hear other ideas. Just my two cents. That’s all I have to say on the matter, I’ll go back to lurking now.

What daft inquisitor is saying is that all those other idea’s could be implemented as airships giving the added ability that they are not fixed in one place.

Right. A guild hall in the caldera of a volcano. In an airship.

Yeah, like this: http://static.planetminecraft.com/files/resource_media/screenshot/1222/InPVIS_2389564.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eUFLw9TQSQ

timmyf.1490:

It seems like you’ve made up your minds that airships are the only possibility and that any other idea must be shoehorned into airships. That’s fine. I’m not here to convince you otherwise. I just wanted to express my concern that by trying to make everything part of an airship, we might be leaving out some cool ideas or functionality that people who haven’t already made up their minds might like.

I came into this discussion not knowing exactly what I wanted, so I’ve tried to keep an open mind about ideas. Some I like (SAB GH is AMAZEBALLS!!!) and some I do not (open world airships, primarily.)

There’s some great ideas in this discussion, but I feel like there’s also a lot of heavy-handed “your idea only works if you do it my way” going on and I find that upsetting.

“It seems like you’ve made up your minds that airships”

Lol, not at all. I’m did not make my mind up on airships. Just want to help you understand what people are talking about if they talk about air-ships. Because you seem to be fixed in the idea it would have to be something like a zeppelin or anything in that direction.

“and that any other idea must be shoehorned into airships” No because you have this fixed or limiting idea on air-ships you seem to think that when people are talking about them they are limiting other suggestions while most of those suggestions would fix into that idea of air-ships that people talk about. Thats why I try to show you what people where talking about when they where talking about airships.

“I came into this discussion not knowing exactly what I wanted, so I’ve tried to keep an open mind about ideas. Some I like (SAB GH is AMAZEBALLS!!!) and some I do not (open world airships, primarily.)”

You see thats what I mean. You limit yourself thinking that the one would exclude the other. But the SAB GH could be an airship. See this thing here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wizard's_Tower That is also what people talked about when talking about air-ships.

But what makes all this sort of funny is the little fact that SAB is build as a giant floating ‘airship’. Remember how you walked over the clouds to get there? And that it was floating in the air?
http://www.guildwars2hub.com/sites/sardu.tentonhammer.com/files/gw291.jpg
http://www.xpboostcomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/gw006.jpg

Anyway, nobody is limiting any body’s idea’s. Maybe some people are limiting their own idea’s.
I did like the idea of air-ships because of the way they could be implemented. If we have instanced guild-halls then it could still have some benefits but many of the benefits are taken away. So no, I would be fine with something else as well. Just helping you to understand what people are talking about.

timmyf.1490:

I’m not saying there should not be airships. I’m saying there should be a lot more than just airships. We’ve exhausted a lot of pages talking about airships and I’d love to hear other ideas. Just my two cents. That’s all I have to say on the matter, I’ll go back to lurking now.

What daft inquisitor is saying is that all those other idea’s could be implemented as airships giving the added ability that they are not fixed in one place.

So there is no need to limiting anything

daft inquisitor.1605:

Having rigged scaffolding and plunges and drops, like how Zephyr Sanctum was, but in an airship?

Zephyr Sanctum was an airship.

timmyf.1490:

Devata.6589:

Because you would be able to have a all the things you mention as guild-ship.

You can have these things in a ship?

timmyf.1490:

Super Adventure Box Guild Hall
Hollowed-out body of an Elder Dragon
Volcano
Underwater in a dome
The catacombs below Divinity’s Reach

Though to be fair, you very well could have a jumping puzzle on an airship. I don’t necessarily want to argue specifics, just keep in mind that limiting yourself to an airship means there’s lots of other potentially amazing ideas that aren’t being considered. Mine are examples, but I’m sure there are other far better ideas we haven’t heard yet.

Never start the creative process by narrowing your options.

Super Adventure Box Guild Hall. Easy

Hollowed-out body of an Elder Dragon. Obviously why not?

Volcano. Most definitely.

Underwater in a dome. That would would be a bit tricky. Then you would need something like water in a dome and then in that the guild-hall in a dome. So doable but a little hard.

The catacombs below Divinity’s Reach. Well the catacombs below Divinity’s Reach is a specific thing and is no airship so no. But you could build something like it and have it be your guild-hall airship.

timmyf.1490:

When Fractals came out, they could have just been unrelated mini-dungeons. Instead, they gave us peeks into semi-historic events, some seen, some yet to be seen. Why shouldn’t guild halls do the same?

This game is best when it brings up that sense of adventure and intrigue. Sure, airships are neat, but we had airships at launch with the Pact. Been there, done that. Guild Halls give us the opportunity to go somewhere new or strange or perplexing. We should be embracing that opportunity!

And sure, airships can be part of it. But if it’s airships and only airships, I’ll be horribly disappointed.

You do understand that you could do almost the same an airship as with a ground guild-hall. But because it’s mobile you can do many things with airships you would never be able to to with ground-halls.

Of what I am really trying to ask. What are you referring to you would like to see. What opportunity you are referring to that apparently is not possible if your guild-hall has the ability to float?

However now open world guild-halls are from the table many pro’s to guild-halls are as well. Still I do what what things you are talking about.

timmyf.1490:

I think the point is that airships are not a particularly creative guild hall option. No offense to people who like airships. Super Adventure Box Guild Hall? Awesome. How about a hall in the hollowed-out body of an Elder Dragon? Awesome. In a volcano? Amazing. Underwater in a dome? That sounds cool. In the catacombs below Divinity’s Reach? Sign me up! Why not a Guild Hall that’s also a huge jumping puzzle? (I hate jumping puzzles, but that’d still be cool.)

The thing that’s irritated me about “airships that float” is that it’s crowded out a lot of really interesting discussion we could be having about other types of guild halls, things that could happen in them (transformed models or armor, effects, SAB-ization, etc).

Those things would be unrelated anyway. Because you would be able to have a all the things you mention as guild-ship.

Anyway the only reason it came up here was as a beacon. You could let them fly over. While only one of the options.

daft inquisitor.1605:

timmyf.1490:

Zietlogik.6208:

I vote that Super Adventure Box is an upgrade available for guild halls as well!

Maybe even a super adventure themed Guild Halls as well

>.>

Would pay 2000 gems for SAB guild hall.

Can we have Finn’s Tree House instead?

Best guild hall ever.

Well if you would be able to build your own guild-hall and we could earn blue-prints for models (like walls and so on) in the world. I would think SAB would be able to drop / unlock blue-prints for that sort of models / blocks to let you build that for yourself.

You see that is why i’m such a big advocate for building the guild-hall yourself and blue-prints in the world. It sends you in to the world to collect what you want and then let you build the guild-hall that you want.

timmyf.1490:

Zietlogik.6208:

I vote that Super Adventure Box is an upgrade available for guild halls as well!

Maybe even a super adventure themed Guild Halls as well

>.>

Would pay 2000 gems for SAB guild hall.

I want game-play not gem-pay. (Want me to pay, sell me an expansion)

I would complete all SAB levels with a group of 5 guild-members to unlock SAB in the guild-hall.

How about that?