Guild Wars 2

Essence Snow.3194:

Devata.6589:

Essence Snow.3194:

Devata.6589:

But the problem then mainly is that there is no good alternative like mounts or other forms of fast travel. Ways that make more sense and don’t show loading screens but do help you to get to your location faster.

Make more sense than floating buildings, magic, giant speaking cat things, large ear mole things, a toilet that you put things in and it spits things out, giant speaking frogs and toads, giant speaking snake like things, etc etc…?

Yeah it does because in a place full magic most of those things (all except for the toilet) do make sense.

The way-points not so much.. Not if Asura portals are these great things they have here. And how do way-points even work? It’s a magical map and I press my finger on that place and I get there? But then why do I even have to first get there before it works. It just does not make any sense, even not in world full magic.

Now there are other things that don’t make sense, like the mini’s that look like important NPC’s. I would never put a mini like that in an MMO. So yes there are things that don’t make sense (what was your point) but that does not mean that the fact that this makes more sense is no good argument. It still is.

Have you played the living story? It explains wp’s a bit. We’d have to ask someone like Konig about wp’s in lore. As far as I’m concerned they are smaller versions of portals that require stability for their unique transportation properties. Idk maybe each one has to attune to one’s individual resonance to ensure safe transit? Really there are a lot of things that are far more questionable in the game. Potions that turn you into furniture? Never needing to actually eat or sleep? Pets that pop in and out of thin air? The list goes on and on.

I know, Now 2 years in they suddenly try to explain the lore of it.

Still it’s not a real explanation (like you say, it explains it a bit), it’s extremely cague and more an excuse to remove some of them using the LS. What sort of made that they had to add it in the lore in some way.

“Potions that turn you into furniture?” yeah thats another one that I would likely not put in a game or it had to be with some good lore (in most magical world people get turned into frogs and stuff).

Eating and sleeping I consider an activity for when the player is offline, in multiple MMO’s you also get a bones from logging out in a city. And pets, yeah I would also have them coming running towards you or really put in the lore like Pokemon does with there pokeballs.

One of the pillars I would have when I was to design a game and especially an mmo is that things have to make sense (in a magical world way of sense). And you can get a little bid out of it but not to much. Anyway a little off topic. It’s not hard to see how way-points where not really in the lore (until now) and are still very vague plus it’s strange that when you have way-points so many npc’s talk about how awesome Asura gates are as way-points seem to be way superior.

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

Wildstar hasn’t failed other than expectations and hype. It’s first full quarter numbers are still better than any of NCSOFT’s previous subscription MMOs marketed only in NA/EU.

Isn’t failing expectations what you can consider failing? They already had to send people home.

It’s not like the game hat to be shut down or anything but it did not preform like it should and I think you can say thats failing.

It’s like declaring a movie a flop because it’s opening weekend didn’t live up to the hype or set a new record. I didn’t say it was wildly successful, just not a flaming pile of dren.

There are almost always layoffs within six months of launch. Build up during the last year of development and then transitioning to a smaller staff to push out content updates. Go to Massively and search for layoffs.

Sure but It was kinda high. And I do think that a movie is a flop when it does not meet it’s expectations yes. That might not be in it’s opening weekend but usually the first few weeks is the highest and after that it usually only go’s down. So the openings-weekend is very important for sure.

What you would really want to know are the developing cost, running cost and netto profit to get a better idea but if the newest game get’s the lowest income (except of one) of all the other games and then already in it’s second quarter then I would indeed think you can consider it a fail.

Again not in a sense that the game is completely dead and the server will shut down, but from a financial viewpoint. I’m sure they expected much more from it even if they manage to still make some money on it.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

Wildstar hasn’t failed other than expectations and hype. It’s first full quarter numbers are still better than any of NCSOFT’s previous subscription MMOs marketed only in NA/EU.

Isn’t failing expectations what you can consider failing? They already had to send people home.

It’s not like the game hat to be shut down or anything but it did not preform like it should and I think you can say thats failing.

How can you even make comment on the policy of sending people home.. you know nothing of the circumstance, you know nothing of the internal make up of the teams, you nothing of the internal/external demands/requirements of the game after launch and you certainly have no knowledge of the individual contractual tie ups .. bottom line – you know nothing.
Take a look at any MMO through its development process then take a look 6 months after launch.. I will hazard a big guess every single one of them “sends people home” as you so delicately put it, but that is nothing new even for stellar performing MMO’s.
WHY? – Because during development, just like many other products out there, there is a requirement to get it done, meet shifting deadlines, larger initial budgeting, need for specialist elements etc etc… once all that is done and the product launches, many of those positions are no longer required and were likely always going to become surplus to requirement at that point, hence contracts are tied in to that effect… just because ‘X’ MMO sheds people at that point it does not necessarily mean its a pre-cursor for doom.. in fact what is also then common is a shuffling of internal responsibilities, new positions get recruited in to meet the changes of the business model as it moves from initial concept/development to live generation/evolution, sales and support.

To note though I wouldn’t be at all surprised if ANET’s business model had the same things forecasted to happen at some point after launch as well.

Oke, I know nothing and Wildstar is doing great! No problems there, everything go’s as planned and they got rid of people because they where only needed up until release.

Also the fact that Carbine was especially hard-hit by the layoffs has nothing to do with the fact that the game did not meat expectations because it did.

Better?

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

Astralporing.1957:

Wetpaw.3487:

like I have mentioned, the question is no longer “can we have mounts” since they’re already in-game, the question really is how does Anet expand on that feature.

You seem to have jumped over the question “do we need or want Anet to expand on those features?” and the fact that general response for this is for now “no, we don’t”.

General response? The mount threads here manage to keep up even better then the Cantha thread. So the general response seems to be yes.

If you look at all those threads, you will see that (unlike in cantha thread), most people posting are against mounts, not for them. And the main reason why lot of posts are simple “don’t like” statements, is because all the arguments have been repeated over and over again countless times. No mount thread in at least a year had introduced any new argument, and future ones are unlikely to change that. In fact, they are more likely to deteriorate into childish “do want” “do not” “do want” “do not” arguments, because reasonable arguments can be repeated only so many times before it gets tiring.
And no, most of those arguments are not “because WoW”. Not are they “bad excuses”. But of course you’d not be interested in it anyway.

Oow I have seen them all. It does not fit in the lore (while it fits more in the lore then no mounts), it makes the world smaller (while way-points really make the world smaller), they would be to crowded in buildings (then you auto dismount inside buildings like in most mmo’s), people block your way in frond of a vendor (just like norns and chars already do?). Yeah I consider that excuses.

And not the majority is against in those thread but it’s true that in Cantha threads you have no people being against it. Mounts are something that has many people in favor but also some heavy against them. So that is what you see.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

Devildoc.6721:

The thing is, I’m an explorer, but that even said, I explore a zone every nook and cranny/attempt to/sometimes succeed in breaking the map… ONCE.

After that, my memory is good enough that “exploring” is done. Forcing me to run across a map instead of waypoint doesn’t encourage any “exploration” from me, I’ve already done that. All forcing me to run instead of waypoint does is annoy me with petty trash that’s in the way along the way that I don’t really feel like killing because it’s a waste of time compared to getting to an event going on at the other end of the map, and possibly missing out on events.

There’s absolutely nothing positive about only one waypoint on that map.

No it does not encourage ressing, I’ve died from jumping into the iron troll’s pit and he had happened to stack his aoe pools right where I landed at the precise time I landed. I was dead upon loading. Nobody ressed me, I had to run across the map. That’s not fun, that’s infuriating. It did not encourage “focusing on survival” I did nothing wrong, I just loaded in at the wrong time. It’s something I had 0 control over.

One waypoint at one end of a zone does NOTHING positive, whatsoever. It is 100% a negative impact to play.

But the problem then mainly is that there is no good alternative like mounts or other forms of fast travel. Ways that make more sense and don’t show loading screens but do help you to get to your location faster.

Just how much of a movement boost are you after? The speed signets offer +25%. Swiftness offers +33%. I know in some older games the boosts were higher than that. I also know that Wildstar mounts offer a 10% speed boost, upped to 15%, with advanced mount training.

Considering that Swiftness offers 33% I guess also 33 or 35%. Maybe you have mounts with different speed. So the big difference would then only be that it’s permanent as long as your mounted.

However that depends also on the new maps. Do they have more big open spaces (what I like) or maybe even manage to make the world seamless in some expansion then it would also be fine to maybe up to 60% or more. However the current maps are small, crowded and before you know it there is a portal (loading screen) to the next map so then I guess the 33% works. So that depends.

Essence Snow.3194:

Devata.6589:

But the problem then mainly is that there is no good alternative like mounts or other forms of fast travel. Ways that make more sense and don’t show loading screens but do help you to get to your location faster.

Make more sense than floating buildings, magic, giant speaking cat things, large ear mole things, a toilet that you put things in and it spits things out, giant speaking frogs and toads, giant speaking snake like things, etc etc…?

Yeah it does because in a place full magic most of those things (all except for the toilet) do make sense.

The way-points not so much.. Not if Asura portals are these great things they have here. And how do way-points even work? It’s a magical map and I press my finger on that place and I get there? But then why do I even have to first get there before it works. It just does not make any sense, even not in world full magic.

Now there are other things that don’t make sense, like the mini’s that look like important NPC’s. I would never put a mini like that in an MMO. So yes there are things that don’t make sense (what was your point) but that does not mean that the fact that this makes more sense is no good argument. It still is.

Astralporing.1957:

Wetpaw.3487:

like I have mentioned, the question is no longer “can we have mounts” since they’re already in-game, the question really is how does Anet expand on that feature.

You seem to have jumped over the question “do we need or want Anet to expand on those features?” and the fact that general response for this is for now “no, we don’t”.

General response? The mount threads here manage to keep up even better then the Cantha thread. So the general response seems to be yes.
It’s just a group, mainly of WoW haters who somehow think adding mounts in GW2 would make the game more like WoW and so don’t want that. Usually coming up with a lot of bad excuses but if you keep asking in the end of the day it turns out that the only reason for not wanting mounts for at least 90% of the haters is “Because WoW”.

curtegg.5216:

Archeage implemented mounts right (the only thing I like about their game besides the intense crafting). They have animation that supports you mounting your ride from all sides and you can perform combat on your mount. Anet’s last story zone with its woefully inadequate single waypoint screams for mounts.

Also the fact that you have to first grow your mount is awesome.

Devildoc.6721:

Ohoni.6057:

if you don’t have this task you are more likely to just freely go explore the land what is real exploration in stead of checking of this list you feel you need to do for map completion.

No.

You might explore, or you might just never go into that area if you aren’t given an explicit reason to go there. Whether you do or do not really depends on the type of person you are. So posit two different types of people and two different game systems.

A. You have a game as you describe, big open spaces with no explicit guide-points to draw you through them. The explorer player might wander every nook and cranny of these areas and find interesting things on their own. The non-explorer might never enter large portions of this area and stick to what’s comfortable, never seeing all sorts of cool stuff.

B. You have plenty of explicit goals on the map to seek out. The non-explorer might bounce from objective to objective and not really pay attention to what’s at each, but at least they would experience a lot of cool stuff. The explorer would also bounce from objective to objective, but would also poke around and fully experience each one, as well as look for smaller experiences around the edges of these points, such as the hidden jump puzzles and Easter eggs.

I think the “visible objectives” method is just more satisfying for the broader amount of players.

i have a simple middle ground, have some really big zones with few waypoints only on really needed places and allow mounts in these areas.

Waypoints and mounts are not conflicting concepts. There should be plenty of waypoints in ALL zones, full stop. There can also be mounts if GW2 wants to implement them, I’d love to see those. But having mounts would not justify having less waypoints, and having less waypoints does not guarantee mounts, so don’t try to link the two.

The thing is, I’m an explorer, but that even said, I explore a zone every nook and cranny/attempt to/sometimes succeed in breaking the map… ONCE.

After that, my memory is good enough that “exploring” is done. Forcing me to run across a map instead of waypoint doesn’t encourage any “exploration” from me, I’ve already done that. All forcing me to run instead of waypoint does is annoy me with petty trash that’s in the way along the way that I don’t really feel like killing because it’s a waste of time compared to getting to an event going on at the other end of the map, and possibly missing out on events.

There’s absolutely nothing positive about only one waypoint on that map.

No it does not encourage ressing, I’ve died from jumping into the iron troll’s pit and he had happened to stack his aoe pools right where I landed at the precise time I landed. I was dead upon loading. Nobody ressed me, I had to run across the map. That’s not fun, that’s infuriating. It did not encourage “focusing on survival” I did nothing wrong, I just loaded in at the wrong time. It’s something I had 0 control over.

One waypoint at one end of a zone does NOTHING positive, whatsoever. It is 100% a negative impact to play.

But the problem then mainly is that there is no good alternative like mounts or other forms of fast travel. Ways that make more sense and don’t show loading screens but do help you to get to your location faster.

Behellagh.1468:

Wildstar hasn’t failed other than expectations and hype. It’s first full quarter numbers are still better than any of NCSOFT’s previous subscription MMOs marketed only in NA/EU.

Isn’t failing expectations what you can consider failing? They already had to send people home.

It’s not like the game hat to be shut down or anything but it did not preform like it should and I think you can say thats failing.

I go with releasing an expansion every year and get rid of the cash-shop.

In that way all active players play a fair amount for the content and we can expect quality in the content not in the cash-shop. (If they do keep selling a few things like character slots and full make over kids I be fine with it.

VodCom.6924:

Devata.6589:

The problem is that the (best) way to get most things / items / rewards is by grinding.

Grinding is the best way to get rewards only because it’s the only one.

I’m not going to expand too much on that topic : it’s common knowledge that devs lock their rewards behind grinding locks on purpose, so that people do not burn content too fast.

A shoddy but necessary tactic for any MMO.

No it’s not a necessary tactic. In fact most mmo’s I did play did not use this tactic.

What they usually do is having an RNG drop. An RNG that is a little easier to get but is only behind specific content. You want item X? Kill mob Y in that area over there.

You want that mini? Do that dungeon.

You want that mount, do that raid dungeon.

This way people can work directly towards the items. The RNG means it’s still something you need to repeat doing. But it’s completely different from the grind in GW2. Where many things can drop in many places (or don’t drop at all but you can only buy them for gold.. or cash). So you cant work directly towards them by doing some specific content. The way to get them is doing something else, whatever earns you the fastest gold and then buy it for that gold.

phys.7689:

lordkrall.7241:

If it were on the “lower end of OK” why didn’t they lose a single one during the recent lay-offs?

Seeing as lower end of OK would suggest it is not doing well enough and as such it would make sense to lay-off a bunch of people, which very clearly didn’t happen (despite happening to all the other western companies of NCSoft.)

gw2 has been coasting on a huge release for a long time. The fact that other western projects failed is not a bonus. It would imply they may be better off not publishing in the west. If my home brew games are making me more money, with less costs/risks why should i invest overseas?

also, i would say this is the turning point, up till now, i would personally be taking more of a wait and see approach, but now? the game with 165kmw in 2 quarters has dropped off to the point its earnings are only 19kmw in a quarter. Aion many consider a flop, but fact remains, 3 -5 years into its development, it doesnt seem to go below 20kmw and has hills and valleys up to 30kmw. It also has a smaller staff.

but now, with consistent downward earnings, averaging 5-10% per quarter, (which would put it at 17 mill next quarter if this trend continues, having probably reached saturation on new box sales.

nah this is not good. Swtor made 165million last year, compared to gw2 reporting 90million US in the last 4 quarters, FFXI which is supposedly nearing 3 million players, would be pulling 3×15million per month, or 45 mill. even if its inaccurate and they only have 2 mill, thats still 30 mil per month, or 120 mil a year, not counting box sales.

for comparison, 19krm translates to roughly 17 million. So yeah, they are doing lower side of OK right now.

Like i said though this isnt the end of the world, as long as they turn the trend around, by some means, its no big deal to have one or two lukewarm quarters. The key thing people are looking to see, is what is arenanets bottom (earnings) going to be?

“Which would put it at 17 mill next quarter if this trend continues.” Q4 tents to be higher. So lets say 16 mill Q1. If things don’t change. What would put it at the same place as the failed Wildstar is now. Of course that does not mean GW2 would be failed as it took GW2 2,5 years to get there but it does show that they need to change things or it will end up dead.

Compare this to GW1 where on average every expansion did bring in about the same amount of money as the original sale. They would have earned so much more money if they only would have done that. Well at least they can’t say I did not warn them.

The problem is that the (best) way to get most things / items / rewards is by grinding. So it’s a game (rewarding) design that is bad and where people are complaining about.
And in fact a design of what Anet promoted the game with NOT being this way.

The complains are not the fact that people do grind.

Even in a game that is not so based on grinding (because you can directly work towards most items without a grind to get gold to buy the items) you will still have people who get there items that way. And thats fine.

So it’s not grinding or grinders that people complain about it’s the design of the game where grinding is the best or only really viable way to get most things.

The only other thing I did see people complain about was toxicity with grinders.

Oow and the price drop does not always have to be true, in fact an increase in price is also possible. Because the more those people grind the more money they have and so the prices can eventually even go up while the supply also is going up. As long as there is a demand for it of course. The price will only drop for items with a lower demand but go’s up for items with a higher demand.

That means that for the not grinders it becomes ever harder to get those items.

What might be the idea behind the design as that gives more reason to buy gems to convert to gold.

But again, this has to do how the game and mainly the rewarding system works and has nothing to do with grinders or grinding.

Is it really that surprising. It’s a sub based game. That does not really work anymore. Of course every time I say that (btw I also say the F2P model GW2 is using is not good) I get to hear that those professionals must know better (while they keep failing time after time) and me thinking I know it better is just misplaced arrogance. Anyway, every time It turns out I’m correct and they are wrong I tent to get a little more arrogant on that part I guess and that has been ongoing for 10 years now. So can you really blame me? Blame those professionals.

Only problem is that I also predicted the model GW2 is using at this moment (F2P) is bad in the long term (2 – 3 years) and thats the period where we are now. So lets hope I get proven wrong there but if they keep using this strategy I’m afraid I’m not. Even if they where to release an expansion, if they keep this F2P model an expansion would only help to increase that time a little. The numbers also do show a slow decrease in GW2 sales what perfectly fits with the “it’s not good in the long run” story I have. Yes the game is still doing well and Q4 will likely see a little increase again (all Q4’s tent to be better) but overall you do see a decline.

But of course I already know what the answer of people on this will be. I am just a players and they know it better, even tho I am a player who tent to get this correct for the last 10 years and the professionals got it wrong for the 10 last years. You see there is that arrogance part.

BTW getting it wrong might be just how you look at it. Getting it right in my book means having a quality game that runs for a long long time, that creates a good name for the company, enjoys the players and eventually earns more money over that longer period.

From a business perspective it might be fine to release a game, try to get as much money out of the pockets of the customers. Having the game die and then they simply move on to the next game maybe under another name so people fall for the same trick again.

However end positive. GW2 was successful and still makes a lot of money while at the same time you can see the decrease. Maybe those two facts mean they see they have to change but also have the money for that change. While I am not to convinced about that.

Looks of LA first Halloween.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

“Once that assumption is made, yes, there is in fact zero difference whether there are WP’s or no WP’s, because the WP’s are unavailable untilafter you’ve reached them.”

And if you had read my post there is a difference.. Not only because of the way-points, also because of the other things like PoI’s but the many way-points are for sure a big part of that. When you have this task of unlocking all those way-points it soon becomes a list you check of, if you don’t have this task you are more likely to just freely go explore the land what is real exploration in stead of checking of this list you feel you need to do for map completion.

Thus a big difference.

“However, it’s not germane to what I was discussing, which is that players are not going to stop and smell the roses just because it takes longer to run to their objectives,” Well I disagree here. This way of doing things creates a mentality where your task is to unlock those places in stead of just explore (really explore) a map. Like I said before, soon you will be running with your map in frond of you most of the time just to see what is the next place you need to unlock. So yes I think it creates a different mentality and so a different game-play experience.

And yes there are those places and that is what you would want. People finding places when exploring. However 90% of it is not finding those places when exploring but running to and past those places because most of them are a checkpoint on your list / map.

You might disagree but I do feel it creates a completely different type and mentality of exploration. And not for the best.

I made two points. Both are based on certain assumptions.

1. If a player has not been to a zone before (assumption), and goes to a location in that zone, he has to run or walk there. Whether there is a WP there or not, he runs/walks there. He has no choice. The presence or absence of a WP does not matter, because he couldn’t use it yet if there were one. The previous sentence is a fact and is a rephrase of the first point I made.
2. A player is on his way to a rewarding event and is worried about getting there in time (assumption). Now, let’s say that there’s only one WP in the zone, which is in the center. The event he’s going to is on the northern edge of the zone. He has to walk/run to the event location. Is he going to stop and do hearts, help out in a different event, or look at scenery? I don’t think so. That last sentence is my opinion, and is my second point.

The only thing in any of the above that’s debatable is whether the player in #2 would stop while on the way to a rewarding event when short on time just because he cannot WP closer. I say, “Not likely.” You may disagree.

Yeah I got your assumptions but I said that also in assumption is simply the fact that you have all these locations you need to go to creates an behavior of just running to the locations you need to get map completion.

So while you say there is not difference because they are still locked I say there is a difference because your map completion behavior becomes unlocking those things in stead on really exploring a map.

Sir Egil The Bull.7869:

Ohoni.6057:

Waypoints and mounts are not conflicting concepts. There should be plenty of waypoints in ALL zones, full stop. There can also be mounts if GW2 wants to implement them, I’d love to see those. But having mounts would not justify having less waypoints, and having less waypoints does not guarantee mounts, so don’t try to link the two.

I agree. Why can’t there be both? Let players decide what we want to, or don’t want to use.

The problem with both is that for far fa distances the way-points will still be the optimal way so then using mounts in stead of way-points would still be punishing. Meaning people will way-point keeping the problem of making the world smaller and so on.

I think the better solution would be that new maps would simply work different.

sorudo.9054:

i see two crowds, one is annoyed by waypoints in general and the other loves them and want more.
then you also have the story of “if you don’t like them, don’t use them” which can be said about mounts too.

i have a simple middle ground, have some really big zones with few waypoints only on really needed places and allow mounts in these areas.
the no waypoint crowd can now get to places where they want and the waypoint lovers can go where they need to go..

and one more thing, if you don’t like mounts, DON’T USE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think most of the anti way-points people say the same. They don’t ask the get them removed in current area’s while maybe do think it’s not a good design. But for new maps no way-points (or just a few) would be great.

Redxon.6832:

Guild wars has no mounts.
Guild wars needs no mounts.

-boromir

In fact GW1 had then.

GW2 has even more of them, from helicopters, to batmobiles, to airships, to submarines, to horse-carriages to flying carpet, to flying brooms and so on. The only difference is that we can’t use most and those that we can use have no permanent speed-boost and you get dismount even after one small hit.

So thats not correct.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

Oow so you did not say "so there is zero difference in terms of exposure to game " and I did not show how there is in fact a difference?

Pretty sure you did say that and pretty sure I did show how it was differenend.

But as usual, you come and completely ignore the post just saying it’s invalid, even failing to say why it would be invalid. Why my post would not ‘contradict’ what was said.

Everything that I said was based on the assumption that the hypothetical players being discussed were doing map completion. This could be discerned by reading the post I quoted, and my own post. Once that assumption is made, yes, there is in fact zero difference whether there are WP’s or no WP’s, because the WP’s are unavailable until after you’ve reached them. Thus, zero difference in result because with either variable, the player ends up walking. So, no, you did not show a difference within the context of my post, because that’s all “zero difference” refers to in my post.

You argue that players (you, at least) would get bored with completion and miss what’s there. I have little doubt that this can happen. However, it’s not germane to what I was discussing, which is that players are not going to stop and smell the roses just because it takes longer to run to their objectives, which in most cases is an event that is more rewarding than the stuff they will be bypassing with nary a glance. I have no objection to your making that point, but why quote me to do so, since my post had nothing to do with what you wanted to say?

As to your point, GW2 has many Easter egg locations spread around the game’s many zones. I visited one area today that I’d never seen before. So in fact, the game does offer exploration in addition to map completion. Sadly, as with much of the game’s content, the Easter eggs and out-of-the-way areas can lose their ability to evoke a sense of wonder, due to repeated exposure.

“Once that assumption is made, yes, there is in fact zero difference whether there are WP’s or no WP’s, because the WP’s are unavailable untilafter you’ve reached them.”
And if you had read my post there is a difference.. Not only because of the wa-ypoints, also because of the other things like PoI’s but the many way-points are for sure a big part of that. When you have this task of unlocking all those way-points it soon becomes a list you check of, if you don’t have this task you are more likely to just freely go explore the land what is real exploration in stead of checking of this list you feel you need to do for map completion.

Thus a big difference.

“However, it’s not germane to what I was discussing, which is that players are not going to stop and smell the roses just because it takes longer to run to their objectives,” Well I disagree here. This way of doing things creates a mentality where your task is to unlock those places in stead of just explore (really explore) a map. Like I said before, soon you will be running with your map in frond of you most of the time just to see what is the next place you need to unlock. So yes I think it creates a different mentality and so a different game-play experience.

And yes there are those places and that is what you would want. People finding places when exploring. However 90% of it is not finding those places when exploring but running to and past those places because most of them are a checkpoint on your list / map.

You might disagree but I do feel it creates a completely different type and mentality of exploration. And not for the best.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

That’s the heart of it. Map completion isn’t exploring. A typical player going for map completion will simply brush past content, barely scratching the surface. They MIGHT discover about a fourth of what the game has to offer (events, unique mob concentrations, npc’s/dialogue, and simple sights that the developers put hard work into creating).

With the few-waypoint system, travel becomes a more active, time-consuming part of the play experience. “But isn’t that a bad thing?” No. Because, even on simple, typical brushes through terrain, players are bound to discover new objects of interest through repeated trips.

I do not concur with this analysis. First, map completion on a first run through means you have to uncover the waypoints, so there is zero difference in terms of exposure to game features. The way to expose map completers to features is to put completion objectives where you want them to go, and ANet has generally done a decent job of this.

Once WP’s are uncovered, map completion only players are less likely to return to the area unless they missed something. Fewer WP’s might mean on-the-way activities might pick up players who are on the way to someplace where there is something they want to do. However, given the concentration of reward in relatively few events (speaking of the whole game), my guess is the majority will not stop to participate in a random event, or to smell the virtual flowers unless they have plenty of time before the event. Think about people passing by the Risen Gladiator event in CS to get to the start of Plinx.

“The way to expose map completion to features is to put completion objectives where you want them to go”
No exactly not. They use way-points, PoI’s, hearths and vista’s in all places where they want you to go. What this results in is that for map completion you have to go to so many places you will stop caring very much and soon you run to all those places pretty much on autopilot. Not paying attention to much else.

The end result is that yes you visited all those places but you did not really explore the map or those places. You where just crossing of a list of places you had to run to, to get your map-completion.

In my opinion or at least for me it would be much better if they had none of that at all or only a few way-points (much like most mmo’s have a few fast travel spots). When walking somewhere a huge part of the map get tagged as explored area so you are never going somewhere just because it’s a icon on the map you have to visit for map-completion. No in stead of wasting your time with that you enter a new map ans see things in the distance and you go check it out. Or maybe you are doing a quest-line that brings you somewhere or you are looking for a specific item and find out a vendor sells it in some part of the map you normally would never visit. That is how you get to those places and that’s how you explore maps. Running from one icon to the next (half of the time with the map as screen) is not exploring.

The GW2 way you don’t explore, you visit because you must for map-completion so it’s more of a boring task you feel or need to do in stead of truly exploring.

As usual, you contradict something other than what I said. Do try in future to consider what other posters say in context before responding.

Oow so you did not say "so there is zero difference in terms of exposure to game " and I did not show how there is in fact a difference?

Pretty sure you did say that and pretty sure I did show how it was differenend.

But as usual, you come and completely ignore the post just saying it’s invalid, even failing to say why it would be invalid. Why my post would not ‘contradict’ what was said.

It’s doing some repeating task to increase a general number / currency to then be able to do something else. For example, grind XP to level up to do lvl x content, grind gold or tokens to buy item y and so on.

Farming on the other hand can be a similar task but now you do if for a specific RNG drop you know can drop there. So you are working directly toward that item while still having a possible repeating task.

In GW2 if you want to get many rewards the most viable option to get them is grinding a currency (mainly gold) to then buy the item you really want. So that is what the grind in GW2 is about.

If you would compare that to some other games with less of this type of grind it’s usually possible (in a reasonable way) to directly work towards that item without the currency in there.
That can be with farming or rewards are given for completing a dungeon or a quest or some other content.
An example of that in GW2 would be the http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mini_Liadri_the_Concealing_Dark . Or an example of a farm would be doing the MF dungeon (back when that was possible) to get the backpack or the mini to drop.

However for most items in GW2 there is a currency grind to get rewards them or at the very least the currency grind is the most optimal way to get most items.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

That’s the heart of it. Map completion isn’t exploring. A typical player going for map completion will simply brush past content, barely scratching the surface. They MIGHT discover about a fourth of what the game has to offer (events, unique mob concentrations, npc’s/dialogue, and simple sights that the developers put hard work into creating).

With the few-waypoint system, travel becomes a more active, time-consuming part of the play experience. “But isn’t that a bad thing?” No. Because, even on simple, typical brushes through terrain, players are bound to discover new objects of interest through repeated trips.

I do not concur with this analysis. First, map completion on a first run through means you have to uncover the waypoints, so there is zero difference in terms of exposure to game features. The way to expose map completers to features is to put completion objectives where you want them to go, and ANet has generally done a decent job of this.

Once WP’s are uncovered, map completion only players are less likely to return to the area unless they missed something. Fewer WP’s might mean on-the-way activities might pick up players who are on the way to someplace where there is something they want to do. However, given the concentration of reward in relatively few events (speaking of the whole game), my guess is the majority will not stop to participate in a random event, or to smell the virtual flowers unless they have plenty of time before the event. Think about people passing by the Risen Gladiator event in CS to get to the start of Plinx.

“The way to expose map completion to features is to put completion objectives where you want them to go”
No exactly not. They use way-points, PoI’s, hearths and vista’s in all places where they want you to go. What this results in is that for map completion you have to go to so many places you will stop caring very much and soon you run to all those places pretty much on autopilot. Not paying attention to much else.

The end result is that yes you visited all those places but you did not really explore the map or those places. You where just crossing of a list of places you had to run to, to get your map-completion.

In my opinion or at least for me it would be much better if they had none of that at all or only a few way-points (much like most mmo’s have a few fast travel spots). When walking somewhere a huge part of the map get tagged as explored area so you are never going somewhere just because it’s a icon on the map you have to visit for map-completion. No in stead of wasting your time with that you enter a new map ans see things in the distance and you go check it out. Or maybe you are doing a quest-line that brings you somewhere or you are looking for a specific item and find out a vendor sells it in some part of the map you normally would never visit. That is how you get to those places and that’s how you explore maps. Running from one icon to the next (half of the time with the map as screen) is not exploring.

The GW2 way you don’t explore, you visit because you must for map-completion so it’s more of a boring task you feel or need to do in stead of truly exploring.

People do this basically to increase there gold. Not for that one specific drop they hope to get.

That makes it grinding, not farming as far as I know.

Might seem like a little thing but I don’t mind some farming in a game, I however completely dislike grinding.

Ragnarox.9601:

kitten .9460:

Rewards in Rift are pretty streamlined now, you get the same reward (currency) to buy whatever you want in pvp, open world, raids, dungeons, etc.

Rift is crap, engine is bad, pvp is so unbalanced. And only 2 ppl working in trion regarding Rift. RNG everywhere…played it like 1 year and i am done with it. Was waiting for Archeage but RNG cancer from trion followed it there so that game will die soon…too bad for a game with great expectations.

But there are no quality mmorpgs out there, f2p suffer rng p2w dissease, gw2 lacks more stuff to do(b2p) and p2p arent good enough to pay for it (wow, wildstar, eso…)

The F2P problem is more of a grind problem or P2W indeed. Look at your ArcheAge example. If it wasn’t for the LP it would be fine but with them it’s grind grind grind or just pay for it. Now look at GW2, if you want anything it’s grind, grind, grind or pay for it.

B2P has nothing to do with lacks more stuff to do. Look at GW1 for example. No if it would be truly B2P we would have had about 2 expansions by now (because if thats how they make there money that is what they focus on and will release faster) and so there would be plenty to do. Not to forget about all the things that are now in the cash-shop and could then be in the world. That alone would make that there would be much more to do even forgetting about the expansions.

Rym.1469:

Sure there will be a drop.

But, being perfectly honest, the only playerbase which may leave for longer period is PvP playerbase. PvE one will dig through the majority of content in 3 months. Then there will be 2-3 months of PvE stagnation in WoW when players will return to their previous games untill the new content patch hits. It’s been like it for a loong time.

So don’t worry about PvE. Worry about even smaller PvP community.

Why do you think that? I did play WoW in the past, purely PvE and not even the raid stuff and it takes very long to complete that. Main things I did was hunting down mini’s / companions and cool mounts in the world. For my ranger /hunter I went searching for the most special pets. I was working on a fun crafts / professions (engineering mainly) wanting to get all those things and collecting some other special funny items. That all send me all over the world. Getting a recipe, getting the materials and so on. That will take you something between half a year and 2 years.

Now there are also companion battles, that alone can take you a long time to level some of those.

The new expansion includes the Garrison and what I understand from it (while I don’t think thats what I personally like) it’s also to keep you busy for a long long time. And while I am not a huge fan of there garrison I also understand then the Garrison in a way has it’s own professions / crafts including it’s own variation of engineering ans like I said before that is something I do like. However I also did read that the garrison is a big time-sink so they keep adding new PvE elements to keep you busy wile all the things I mentioned before will likely also be expanded up on. More pets including some new rare ones, new mini’s, new things you can do with your craft.

Rushing to max level might take you a few months and with the expansions you might be able to do it in two weeks (those same people will play GW2 maybe 2 hours per LS patch), but all the other stuff around it can easily keep you busy till the next expansion. It is in fact exactly those elements that I miss in GW2. The only thing to do next to the story is grinding grinding and more grinding to get gold to buy what you want.

Now that is something where Anet could learn a lot, biggest problem however is that most of those items you would be able to get there (the mini’s but also the fun items you can make with those professions) are here all currency driven or directly cash-shop items. Most mini’s are in the cash-shop and for example the new flying carpet in GW2’s cash-shop that is also in WoW but from a craft. The flying broom is also in WoW but from a quest line. Thats also why I always complain so much about there cash-shop focus. It completely destroys these sort of things.

Vayne.8563:

kitten .9460:

Vayne.8563:

aspirine.6852:

How can they even compete with something like that.

Until WoW is free to play, a lot of people won’t play it, period. But that aside, do you realize how many people simply don’t like WoW..

You say this all the time but it has no relevance to the discussion. We are comparing content here, your blind hate towards WoW and its subscription model is not needed Mr. ANet #1 fanboy

If we compare players then WoW has about 10x what GW2 has, don’t even try telling me 3mill still play GW2. Blizz has the numbers to back their game, the proof is in the pudding! The xpac is only going to expand that number.

I say this all the time because it’s true. A lot of people hate WoW. The are probably more people who have left WOW never to look back than are currently playing. But even in the beginning a lot of people simply didn’t like it.

So you’ve got two things. Some people won’t play a sub game period and some people don’t like that style of game. It’s completely 100% irrelevant that some do.

I mean a whole lot of people watch Big Brother, but that’s not going to stop other shows from doing business. A whole lot of people eat at McDonalds, but there are plenty of steak houses still doing business.

You seem to think I’m saying Guild Wars 2 will be as popular as WoW, which I’ve never said. I’m saying there are ENOUGH people that don’t like WoW who simply won’t play it, no matter what….enough people who like Guild Wars 2.

That’s my opinion.

Yeah you are right. Some people don’t like WoW just because it’s popular. Then some people feel the need the need to hate WoW.

You are also correct that a there are quite a few of them playing WoW. You can see that in the forums whenever something gets suggested and people are heavily against it but when you really start asking why disputing all there so called reasons it turns out the real reason is “Because WoW”. No mounts because WoW, no raids because WoW, no trinity because WoW and not only some of the players are like that, also Anet seems to be in the business of doing things different for the sake of doing them different.

Not just because it’s good but because it’s different just like many of those WoW haters, hate WoW just because they want to hate WoW not because of any true valid reasons.

However personally I see this as one of the 3 main core problems of GW2. (I made a thread about that in fact https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Problem-of-being-different-for-the-sake-of-it/ )

They are trying so hard to be different and are even stubborn about it if something clearly does not work.

You see it as a positive thing to cater to the WoW haters but I see it as a negative because if another game does something (don’t have to be WoW, heck most of the things people don’t want because WoW have been done by other MMO’s even before WoW did them) that work, there is no good reason to not also do that in GW2 a way that it fits in GW2 obviously.

The reason that people would leave WoW when it would go F2P is most likely because they don’t want the game to turn into a cash-shop game where the best way to get items you want is with the cash-shop (like in pretty much all F2P games including GW2). Something to think about.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Devata.6589:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Devata.6589:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You cant stop people from whining.

The first mistake any person or business can make is expecting to please 100% of its playerbase.

Nobody complaining about expansions wants to hear “Gw1 is not GW2, the devs wanted to do something different”, for instance.

If it comes to expansions thats also irrelevant because this game GW2 got released as B2P while it later was turned more into a cash-shop game in stead of a B2P game.

Now if it was about having an open world and people where complaining about that you where right.

W…what?

Can you rephrase this? I don’t get it.

What part?

The excuse “Gw1 is not GW2, the devs wanted to do something different” is valid if people are asking for something that was from GW1 (like no open world) but what never was mend to be the case for GW2 (GW2 was always supposed to have an open world). But that excuse is invalid for things that have always been associated with GW2 like using the same payment model (B2P) as GW1.

Living story replaced expansions for GW2.

I wasn’t addressing anything about payment models. I was only addressing content delivery and the fact that some people seem to be cross that the deliv system isnt like GW1s.

Yeah indeed Living story (that came after the release!) is what they have now instead. That fits more with a F2P model.

The game was put on the market as B2P. Yes that is a change people complain about but it’s a change that came after release when people had already both / invested in the game. So they can complain about that if they like.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Devata.6589:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You cant stop people from whining.

The first mistake any person or business can make is expecting to please 100% of its playerbase.

Nobody complaining about expansions wants to hear “Gw1 is not GW2, the devs wanted to do something different”, for instance.

If it comes to expansions thats also irrelevant because this game GW2 got released as B2P while it later was turned more into a cash-shop game in stead of a B2P game.

Now if it was about having an open world and people where complaining about that you where right.

W…what?

Can you rephrase this? I don’t get it.

What part?

The excuse “Gw1 is not GW2, the devs wanted to do something different” is valid if people are asking for something that was from GW1 (like no open world) but what never was mend to be the case for GW2 (GW2 was always supposed to have an open world). But that excuse is invalid for things that have always been associated with GW2 like using the same payment model (B2P) as GW1.

skullmount.1758:

Devata.6589:

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

skullmount.1758:

Essence Snow.3194:

I never understood the “I don’t like way points, they make the world feel small/ make me lose my immersion” crowd.

There’s a very easy way to fix that. DON"T USE THEM….problem solved

For those who enjoy way points…..the reverse is not easy in instances like this. As such I am of the belief that they should be there.

I can’t agree with this more. If you don’t like something and you don’t have to use it, don’t try to get it removed just so others have to suffer your preference.

Couldn’t have said it any better.

Oke in that case let’s place a vendor in the game that gives out all items / skins for free! For those who enjoy the grinding for them they can do that, for those who don’t they can get to the vendor and get everything they want there.

Dude, you really gotta stop using that excuse. That is in no way close to what we’re asking for. Adding another waypoint is not asking for everything to be given freely. And I don’t think anyone (well I’m sure there would be someone) would ever want a button to get everything for free (otherwise there’d be no point in playing the game).

It’s not an excuse it’s an analogy. The fact that you don’t ask for everything to be given out freely is EXACTLY the point!

“And I don’t think anyone (well I’m sure there would be someone) would ever want a button to get everything for free (otherwise there’d be no point in playing the game).”
There you go. So while it’s more convenient and people who don’t like it just don’t use it there are still other reasons why it should not be added!

If the excuse for more way-points is ‘because it’s more convenient and people who don’t like it just don’t use it’ would be a good one then you could just as well put in a vendor that gives everything for free because it’s more convenient and people who don’t like it just don’t use it.

You see where the two match. Thats why it’s a perfect analogy to show why at least that excuse (direct or indirect) for more way-points is invalid. Well expect of course if you would think a vendor like that would be good.

The thing is that most people do see why thats wrong.. while it is convenient and people who don’t like it just don’t have to use it.

So as long as people use that bad excuse (directly or indirectly) I can use that analogy.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Devata.6589:

Lustre Of Havoc.9173:

If this was a subscription game, I’d totally understand people complaining about content. This isn’t a subscription game. Stop complaining; you only had to pay once. The rest is 100% free.

By the way, there’s a big difference between suggesting ideas and whining. Most of you have been whining.

There won’t be an expansion. Stop asking when it’s coming.

So you say that you should not complain because it’s all for free but what if the whining is exacly about that? (pretty much what you mention in your last sentence)

That this game was released as B2P and GW1 had payed expansions ever half a year.

However in stead of GW2 truly bing B2P and having paid expansion say every year it has become more of a F2P game where all new content is free but the hole game suffers for that approach.

So what if the ‘whining’ is exactly about the fact that it’s all free content. The reason you give why people should not ‘whine’.

Actually, Guild Wars (One) only released one campaign six months from another. The others were all longer apart, including the one expansion. I’m sure we all want to be factual when we throw statistics around. =)

True it was between half a year and 1 year. But I also talked about GW2 releasing expansion with about 1 year so with that in mind it seems irrelevant as I was only pointing out what people could expect that because of what they had seen in GW1.

Now If I said people would expect a GW2 expansion every half year you where right and it would be relevant. But because I talked about 1 year expansion it’s not.

Not to mention that many of those people ‘whining’ for an expansion have waited for over two years. GW2 has now taken longer to release an expansion then what the marked in general does while for a B2P game (a game that focuses on game sales for income) you would expect faster releases, not slower.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You cant stop people from whining.

The first mistake any person or business can make is expecting to please 100% of its playerbase.

Nobody complaining about expansions wants to hear “Gw1 is not GW2, the devs wanted to do something different”, for instance.

If it comes to expansions thats also irrelevant because this game GW2 got released as B2P while it later was turned more into a cash-shop game in stead of a B2P game.

Now if it was about having an open world and people where complaining about that you where right.

“The only thing you can do is let them keep headbutting "
Or you could listen and try to make it better. Especially since it turned out much of those complained where right after all. (Anet said themselves they where bleeding new customers. There have been many ‘whiners’ ‘whining’ about the possible reasons for that for a long time)

To those complaining about the grind in the new map and those defending it. Both are right and both are wrong.

First thing to remember is that people always go for the road of least resistance. It’s human nature and make perfect sense.

There is another thread about the lack of way-points. Some like it some don’t but you can’t say ‘if you don’t like it, don’t use them’ because then people are punishing them-self for not doing it. It changes the complete nature of a map.

Well with content that is the same. If you make content that rewards x but there is a more easy (not fun but easy) way to earn things most people prefer to do it that way. And those who like to do the content.. Well for them the content isn’t fun anymore because they are also getting pushined for doing it that way simply because when doing that they are getting less rewarded.

The real problem is simply in the rewarding system in GW2. Mainly that it’s so much currency based (what seems related to the cash-shop as a currency based games makes for more gem-sales for gold and of course the fact that you can buy items in the cash-shop for gold also makes currency more important). This currency way of doing things makes that it’s very hard to make truly rewarding content and has turned the game into one big grind.

People will always find some way to easily grind a currency and by doing so all rewards get devaluated from a game-play perspective.

It’s a problem that has been in the game for a long time and while Anet did address many issues and seem to be going in a better direction this one is untouched (maybe they have tried but always failed). Likely because it’s so much entangled with there payment model and that they are not willing to change.

Anyway, the problem has to do with Anet and there way of rewarding.

Both parties in this thread are right. Those saying people should be allowed to play the way they want (grinding) and the people complaining about it. But the problem is somewhere else.

Vayne.8563:

I think there will be an expansion. I believe it will be released when it makes good business sense to release it.

That time has come and gone.
For sure from a game perspective, but likely also from a business perspective.

Lustre Of Havoc.9173:

If this was a subscription game, I’d totally understand people complaining about content. This isn’t a subscription game. Stop complaining; you only had to pay once. The rest is 100% free.

By the way, there’s a big difference between suggesting ideas and whining. Most of you have been whining.

There won’t be an expansion. Stop asking when it’s coming.

So you say that you should not complain because it’s all for free but what if the whining is exacly about that? (pretty much what you mention in your last sentence)

That this game was released as B2P and GW1 had payed expansions ever half a year.

However in stead of GW2 truly bing B2P and having paid expansion say every year it has become more of a F2P game where all new content is free but the hole game suffers for that approach.

So what if the ‘whining’ is exactly about the fact that it’s all free content. The reason you give why people should not ‘whine’.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

skullmount.1758:

Essence Snow.3194:

I never understood the “I don’t like way points, they make the world feel small/ make me lose my immersion” crowd.

There’s a very easy way to fix that. DON"T USE THEM….problem solved

For those who enjoy way points…..the reverse is not easy in instances like this. As such I am of the belief that they should be there.

I can’t agree with this more. If you don’t like something and you don’t have to use it, don’t try to get it removed just so others have to suffer your preference.

Couldn’t have said it any better.

Oke in that case let’s place a vendor in the game that gives out all items / skins for free! For those who enjoy the grinding for them they can do that, for those who don’t they can get to the vendor and get everything they want there.

Ohoni.6057:

But you get punished for doing so compared to people who do use it.

So you are saying that instead ALL players should be punished because the few players that don’t like WPs cannot control their own behavior and abstain from using them?

I see you still don’t know how to quote. You are lucky I noticed this post.

Nice try of putting it in the negative but that does not mean it’s true.

Traveling is not punishing, it makes sense and it’s about immersion (besides it can also be fun when you include mounts). Just as the fact that you can’t just go to a vendor and get all weapons and skin for free. That is not pushing ALL people it’s simply part of the experience. It makes it a better games.

You could put vendors in the game that give everything out for free and then say that if you don’t you are punishing ALL players by making it harder to get those items so thats why you should have those vendors. (the way you talk about way-points) But in reality you do it because it’s better for the overall game experience. Making rewards accessible to easy takes away the value of those rewards and makes content unrewarding so it’s not good for the game.
Do you want a fun rewarding game? Then you don’t have a vendor like that.

Having way-points all over the place makes it easy to travel so you could say by taking them away you are punishing all people (like you do) but the way-points destroy much of the immersion with all the loading screens and makes the world feel very small not really as one big world more but as separate ‘games’ you can do so it’s not good for the game.
Do you want a immersive game that gives the feeling of a true open world, then you have less way-points and portals as possible.

Offair.2563:

Fernling.1729:

Wetpaw.3487:

I really dislike the idea of multiple WP in a zone, I say get rid of most of them and add mounts to help with immersion and bringing older zones to life.

Yeah, the waypoints make the world feel tiny.

Easy solution: Dont use waypoints and your world suddenly feels bigger!

But you get punished for doing so compared to people who do use it.

Ohoni.6057:

I presented my opinion as a wager on my part, not as an equivocated statement of fact.

Yeah just as I also said it an an opinion (I even talked about that in that post but you left that out of the quote) just as you. So it stays funny you say I would not may make that claim and then you are fine with making that claim. And next time quote correctly.

I am not again gonna read just to check if you reacted on something from me or not because you find it to hard to quote correctly.

Ohoni.6057:

Newsflash, most people do not want to be punished for death, in any context, especially in entertainment products. Most people don’t like to be punished in general, aside from those who go to special clubs for that sort of thing.

You really believe this don’t you? You don’t understand what challenging means and why many people prefer a challenge. Funny.

Well maybe Anet can then remove dying completely from this game. Why bother right?

Ohoni.6057:

You really, really do. “It shows something about the brainless, unpunished, zerg content much of the game has become and how many people have become used to that.
The problem is that even tho there might now be many people used to that, it tends to not be good material to keep things going for a long time. Also the people who now like the brainless, unpunished, zerg stuff will get tired of it.”

Still waiting for the quote where I say they are doing something wrong.

Khisanth.2948:

Devata.6589:

If people are really afraid of spending to much time in a game MMO’s in general are not the best choice of games anyway.

It is not about spending too much time. It is about wasting time. It doesn’t matter if a mount or moa is faster than walking, it is still slower than a waypoint. I could have been where I wanted to be already instead I am sitting on this stupid moa twiddling my thumbs.

It’s not wasting it’s about immersion. If we go down that road I can consider everything wasting time.

Aeon.4127:

Devata.6589:

Kamui.4038:

Aeon.4127:

I dont understand… if it got disabled for inappropriate animations during specific moments… why is it the female human is the only one that had it disabled… or am I not aware of any others that have been? im not implying others should be, but other races and of both female/male genders have some animations where they seem like they can care less of what the npc/story is talking about soooo why have they not been disabled?

It’s an excuse to defeminize them. That has been an ongoing theme since they butchered the running animation.

Oow oow, now somebody is going mad feeling even more in there right to remove these things.

As if that is what feminine is about. As if they have to walk like that and make such provoking gestures to be considered a female. Bad bad you it shows what the media and games has put into the minds of the people.

(Just for the record, this is not my opinion, just imagining how somebody (that would want to remove these things in the game) is reacting when reading your statement).

Whaaaaaaaat?… I simply meant I dont like having one of my lvl 80’s that I truly love planking everywhere she goes. I TRUTHFULLY dont care if they REMOVE this and add other animations instead, other than just having her brush her hair to the side. People dont seem to understand that regardless of what you may think most of us simply want our characters to be more “lively” during moments where you go afk, or when your thinking of what to do next.

And how is kicking a rock from the floor an example of making a provoking gesture that determines ones gender? If I misunderstood your post I apologise… But from what I did understand you are the absolute furthest from what I meant. Furthermore I would like if you were a little more thoughtfull next time you point fingers at someone saying hes in it for provocative gestures or that hes some type of anti-feminist ignorant pig.

I was taking about somebody reading Aeon’s reaction, envisioning what she is thinking. Not talking about Aeon’s reaction itself. So about the exact opposite of what you seem to have understand.

Somebody is thinking this way, certainly not me.

xarallei.4279:

Rambodacious.7495:

3. Profitability

Not just for the players, but for Arenanet as well. Finding ways to monetize raids through gem store items would be great.

What do you mean by monetize raids? This sounds like a terrible idea. Raids should have absolutely NOTHING to do with the cash shop. Ever. Please don’t give them any ideas.

The cash shop needs to continue doing what it is doing with just skins and minis. Nothing more.

That then look better as the skins and mini’s in you earn in the raid devaluating those? I disagree with both. Yes it should be completely separate from the cash-shop but in all ways it can. If you can earn a mini in the raid content but a better one is available in the cash-shop it’s just as bad. Of course I agree Anet needs to earn money. One way of doing that is releasing the raid content as part of an expansion. Then there is no need for cash-shop involvement in the raid content, not directly as indirectly.

Ohoni.6057:

The only problem with this type of content is that even those who like it will likely get bored with it while other types of content can stay fun also over the longer term.

No. Just no. You have absolutely no basis for these claims. You can speak for yourself on this, but for no one else. You have no reason to believe that other players will tire of the current game any sooner than they would a game with more long run-backs. I would wager that the opposite would be true, that players would be MORE likely to grow bored of the game if they’re constantly forced to run back to the same location time and again. Sorry, just no.

Having more or less waypoints has absolutely nothing to do with “more interesting content,” and has nothing to do with zergs really since if you’re in a zerg you’re far more likely to get rezzed and avoid the runback, rather than less. WP locations only have to do with what happens if you die. Nobody is arguing that they can’t or shouldn’t make the content fun and engaging while you’re on your feet, only about the consequences when you fall.

As for “it wasn’t always like this,” all I know is that when I got my first character to 80 a couple months after launch, I joined up with a zerg circling the Straights of Devastation for a few laps. It likely wasn’t the most efficient one even for the time, but I enjoyed it before continuing on with world completion. Once I’d done that and started leveling my alts, most of them settled down at various world bosses, and I spent most of my time hopping from world boss to world boss as they came up. Then once the LW content tended to shift into a new fortnightly zerg rotation, I hopped right onto those and have enjoyed each more than the last. I see no signs of slowing, and am actually kind of annoyed because there are a lot of other games I would like the time for, but GW2’s taking up so much of mine.

So people who where here from before that have all the right to complain about it. (And I never said anybody was a lesser person for liking the one over the other).

And yet you continue to make statements that imply that players who enjoy the current meta are “doing something wrong,” and that if only the development of the game would shift in certain areas “they could still be saved from themselves.” I’ve heard similar arguments from religious proselytizers and wasn’t swayed by them either.

That first was about the brainless zerg content not about the less of way-points. And yes it’s an opinion or a view, not a fact.
You can see that here “it will likely get bored ”.
Well maybe it is a fact but we don’t if it is a fact.

BTW it’s kinda funny that you say I could not make that statement while you then say “I would wager that the opposite would be true, that players would be MORE likely to grow bored of the game if they’re constantly forced to run back to the same location time and again.”
So I may not make that statement but you may.

While of course most MMO’s work like that and some of them are very popular already for over 10 years. So we know that that is not a problem for the lifetime of a game and so many people have no problem with that.

Anyway I was talking about the brainless zerg content that was mentioned there for a moment not specifically about less way-points. While a little off topic the connection to the way-points was your statement that less way-points where bad because it would make death (more) punishing. On what I commented that that is the point of death and that is does show how this game has been turned into a brainless zerg fest where many people don’t even want to be punished for death.

“And yet you continue to make statements that imply that players who enjoy the current meta are “doing something wrong,”"

No I never say that or suggest that. Now this Ohoni, this is a Straw man .

phoenix.3465:

kolompi.1287:

phoenix.3465:

Living in a world where males decide what to be “feminine” means. And you wonder why we don’t like that…

The world has moved past that decades ago.

You say that, but at the same time exactly what I said is going on right now in this thread.

No what’s going on in this thread is that an animation is taken away (likely because of bad reasons having to do with the complains you come with yourself) that people like.

I know that some people find everything offensive and so feel the need to suck fun out of everything but it’s not good if companies in fact do listen to these type of people.

Ohoni.6057:

If people are really afraid of spending to much time in a game MMO’s in general are not the best choice of games anyway.

This is a silly argument to make. If people are hear then they’re here for a reason, it’s not for you to diminish them because their reasons are different than your own.

Personally, I love to explore, but I also get bored of things quickly. Seeing something for the first time in a while can be magical, seeing it even the second time, meh. I enjoy actually playing this game quite a bit, but I really HATE “runbacks,” having to jog back to where I last died. If I want to travel on foot, I’ll travel on foot, and I imagine I do it more than most since I’m fairly stingy about WP costs, but ideally I’ll have the minimal “downtime” after falling in this game.

So for once death means something in this game.. If you die it’s supposed to be a serious pain!

Nah, never been a fan of that philosophy. Death’s just something that happens from time to time. Having to get repaired, having a reasonable run-back, these are reasonable penalties, but the current run-back to Amber is way too long. It’s not a Rogue-0like or anything, but it’s more onerous than it has to be.

It shows something about the brainless, unpunished, zerg content much of the game has become and how many people have become used to that.

Yeah, because they like it. Have you ever considered that perhaps the bulk of GW2 players are not “spoiled” by the game having convenient WPing, but rather that they play this game over others BECAUSE the game has convenient WPing? I mean, I doubt that alone is the number one reason for anyone, but I imagine more current GW2 players genuinely prefer it that way rather than otherwise.

This does not make them lesser beings than those that prefer harsh death penalties, it just makes them gamers that prefer different things from the game, that are more excited by fooling around in a fight than they are with the thrill of imminent death on a razor’s edge. Just understand that GW2 is the game that GW2 is, and the players of GW2 largely enjoy the game that GW2 is. They can change things as they go, but they need to be careful that they don’t change the things that the majority of players actually enjoy about the game.

No game can be for every player, and there are a lot of people on these forums that seem to insist that this game should be morphed into something it never was, and never claimed to be.

It’s not silly. MMO’s simply take more time then your average game.

“I imagine more current GW2 players”
Yeah here is the thing. Many current players probably like brainless zerg content and map completion does fit a little in that as it’s just striping of a list this way in stead of really exploring. That is however because many people who dislike it might have left.

The only problem with this type of content is that even those who like it will likely get bored with it while other types of content can stay fun also over the longer term. So then the question is if you would really only want to focus on a subgroup of players that is likely to also get bored with what you are giving the. Or you should simply try to also give content that is also interesting for another subgroup that is then more likely to keep playing.

It looks like Anet has now decided to try and address also that other subgroup by giving more punishing content that is a little less of one big zerg blob. I do not see what is wrong with that.

The people who prefer way-points and brainless zergs have still many places where they can do that.

About the game mophing into something. You seem to forget that GW2 also morphed into this mindless grind-fess. That was not always the case. Dying has always not been very punishing but other then that it was not like this on launch. For example the cash-shop had less focus in the beginning and many mats where farmable in the game. What happened is that more and more items got added in the cash-shop making gold very important. At the same time everywhere people could farm for specific mats got nerved to make it impossible. Added where general good drops from a big number of mobs meaning people started grinding that to sell for gold to buy what they wanted. That is how the hole grind fess mentality got morphed into the game. So people who where here from before that have all the right to complain about it. (And I never said anybody was a lesser person for liking the one over the other).

To get back to the way-points discussion. It’s perfectly fine to add lesser way-points in new maps to also give other people more fun and more punishing content.

Kamui.4038:

Aeon.4127:

I dont understand… if it got disabled for inappropriate animations during specific moments… why is it the female human is the only one that had it disabled… or am I not aware of any others that have been? im not implying others should be, but other races and of both female/male genders have some animations where they seem like they can care less of what the npc/story is talking about soooo why have they not been disabled?

It’s an excuse to defeminize them. That has been an ongoing theme since they butchered the running animation.

Oow oow, now somebody is going mad feeling even more in there right to remove these things.

As if that is what feminine is about. As if they have to walk like that and make such provoking gestures to be considered a female. Bad bad you it shows what the media and games has put into the minds of the people.

(Just for the record, this is not my opinion, just imagining how somebody (that would want to remove these things in the game) is reacting when reading your statement).

Ohoni.6057:

At the moment we are fighting to claim and control the zone, and the single waypoint contributes well to the battlefield experience.

However, there are a few areas to the west blocked by vines. On the next step of the living story, as the Pact forces its way west, I imagine that the Silverwastes assaults will become less frequent, we will be given access to a new part of that zone, and in the newly available area there will be another waypoint.

Anet clearly has plans for us going forward.

Perhaps so, but even right now, today, there are not enough WPs, because getting back to Amber after a death is a serious pain.

So for once death means something in this game.. If you die it’s supposed to be a serious pain!

Seriously I don’t get why people can even come up with an argument like this.. Now death is unpleasant. Like if that should not be the point.
It shows something about the brainless, unpunished, zerg content much of the game has become and how many people have become used to that.
The problem is that even tho there might now be many people used to that, it tends to not be good material to keep things going for a long time. Also the people who now like the brainless, unpunished, zerg stuff will get tired of it.

Leaa.2943:

No it does not encourage more exploring, because when you played the game for more then 2 years and have over 20 characters on two accounts then there is simply not a single rock in any region or map that you missed turning.
There is nothing i have not seen, no event i have not done and this even though there is wp on those maps.

When i play in a area i do not want to walk over and over to the other side of the map. That cost me time, i don’t have unlimited time, i am a mum so when a big part of my game time is about walking a path from point a to b with no other intentions then to reach point b, then it is not effective.

If people want to explore they can still do so. I done it with my characters and i believe that people will continue to do so even if there is more waypoints on the new map. And IF you are one of them that like to walk, then simply don’t use the waypoints.

Oow I have also seen about everything. But it has never given me a true feeling of exploration. And taking away way-points would not mean taking away ways of fast travel. Fast travel points like trains or racing moa’s then bring you to specific places very fast or personal fast travel such as mounts would then be an option. That would of course still take a little longer then way-pointing but it’s not like walking everywhere. It’s somewhere in the middle. It’s also much more immersive then a loading screen.

If people are really afraid of spending to much time in a game MMO’s in general are not the best choice of games anyway.

Ohoni.6057:

You can argue with me that this isn’t gameplay you perfer but I will counter that in order to create the good gameplay people are praising now, they had to sacrifice the convience of nearby waypoint.

Most of the game spoils you with easy WP access, this is a level 80 zone, it make sense for them to add harsher elements to create more interesting gameplay.

People keep saying WPs “spoil us,” which automatically has a prejudicial connotation. It’s not “spoiling us,” it’s just providing the most fun gameplay experience possible with minimal tedium.

Not helpful.
Stating an opinion as a fact.