Guild Wars 2

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Neither.

Living Story is not meant as an expansion nor a gap filler. It’s actually an extension of your personal, and continued, story.

It’s also supposed to give updated content that keeps players interested. Unlike other MMOs, where the endgame doesn’t exist, is raiding for gear, or strange things like Hutt Ball, the endgame is plot progression, achievement hunting for titles, gears, and minis, and exploration of new zones as they are released.

Living Story is kind of like an episodic television show where you are the main character.

Thus the wording of ‘Seasons’ in ArenaNet’s vocabulary.

Hunting for mini’s, completing fun crafts, hunting for ranger-pets, collecting mounts and other fun items. I love to do that (in mmo’s), but as far as it’s even in GW2 (of the examples basically only mini’s and fun items (toys) are). It’s mainly cash-shop or gold-grind. So not really fun. LS and PS is not very interesting if you are not a real story person. So I do hope that this HoT is an expansion and the endgame will again move towards that sort of things in stead of keeping that cash-shop or gold-grind and having the LS stuff to try and keep people bussy or as you name it ‘end-game’.

WvW was more end-game for me but that also gets old after you have done that for over a year because of the way it’s designed.

Originally it was meant to be there in stead of an expansion. This was made very clear by a developer who said ‘If we do this (LS) right, we will never get an expansion’ and based on later statements from people like Colin ‘getting it right’ basically meant that if they could deliver expansion-like content / content you would expect in an expansion, in that way.

This did cause for a lot of negative feedback from the community. The official statement on that negative feedback was that people did not have to be afraid, we would for sure see expansion-like content / content you would expect in an expansion, but they had not yet decided if they would use the LS or an expansion. (but based on the first statement before you can conclude that they had decided to use the LS for that) however the negative feedback clearly made them rethink it.

After that this was the official statement for over almost two years, what obviously makes no sense because if they deliver an expansion worth of content (as they said) using the LS they should have started doing that immediately two years ago so by now we would have seen that complete ‘expansion’. That means they made that decision (LS or Expansion pack) almost two years ago, but why they never told the community what decision they made is a big question. They should have imho.

So basically they made the decision to use the LS and sort of failed as most people don’t see what has been delivered with the LS as expansion wordy, or they made the decision to in fact go for an expansion after the community reacted very negatively on the LS approach. You will likely get the answer to that this Saturday (Finally).

If they announce something like Season 3 then they obviously made the decision to go for and stick on the LS approach and what you have seen by now is supposed to be expansion wordy.
If they announce a true expansion pack to be released within half a year they made the decision to go for expansions (with a little time-lag because they originally wanted to go for the LS approach, explaining why the expansion took so long) or if they do announce an expansion but to be released in a year or longer then they made the decision for the LS but now after we should have seen an expansion word of content with the LS also Anet concluded that it was a failed attempt and so decided to go for the expansion approach for the next phase.

And here you have the summary of 2 years of GW2 expansion discussion / information.

So wait until Sunday and you know.

It’s more about the build then about skills. That is btw in almost every MMO the case and is why I do not like PvP (not talking about open world PvP) in general in mmo’s. For PvP I will then be more interested in FPS’s as there skill is more important then the build and I even prefer FPS’s where the build really isn’t a thing at all while you see it becoming a little more of a thing in modern FPS’s because you can unlock a lot of stuff. Still it’s not really comparable with an MMO where the builds is really like the most important element.

In addition, the way of fighting (sing spells from a hotbar) is also not as interesting as for example the shooting you do in a FPS.

Sorry about some of the spelling errors in the comment. Forums still don’t seem to work properly so I could not edit it. (and will also stop after this post)

mention then collecting = mention that collecting
are no a = are not a
of the item. = most of the items

Recently I have been mainly playing another MMO and there was only one thing I had to spend a lot of gold / currency on (License to use fast mounts) but because it was the only thing that required gold I had earned most of that while playing so there was nearly no grind required. All the other things I wanted, a few mini’s I wanted, a mount and armor I all obtained directly ingame without needing a currency. Not saying there are no things you need currency for, there are many but there are also many that don’t. In GW2 it is almost always so that if there was something you would like to have (like some people would now maybe like this helm) the best or only way to get it is grinding gold.

Tom Gore.4035:

Novuake.2691:

Tom Gore.4035:

Glorious armor too.

You can buy all the weapon skins from TP and they don’t even cost that much when the per 1 ticket is still active at the BL trader. Totally obtainable in-game.

Claiming anything else is just pure denial.

Fair point. So then we can go into the ridiculous grindfest to get them?

Glorious armor – grindfest? Agreed. Unless of course you love PvP, which many do.
Carapace – grindfest? Sure, if you want all the weights and pieces. Otherwise, nah.
Luminescent – grindfest? A-yep.
BL weapons – grindfest? If you need them all, sure. Just one, though? Starting from ~50g or even less on a buy order. Nah. If it takes you longer than a couple of days to make 50 gold you’re doing something wrong.

You ninja edited so I will too:

It all depends on your expectations. If you want to collect everything in an MMO, you cannot avoid the grind. That just doesn’t work. 50-100gp for an exclusive weapon skin is not grindy.

Not to mention then collecting full sets of something is what for many people an mmo is about your statement only holds true f you would indeed look at one specific thing.

Yes if you only would like for example the dragon helm then it’s true, then it’s not that big of a grind and doable. It’s a grind but doable.

The problem of course is that so many things in this game are a gold grind so you might want this helm, the gloves from another set, a mini, a toy, the flying carpet and so on and so on. And that’s why it’s a never ending gold-grind even when you are no a collector.

It’s how the game is designed. Many items are put in the cash-shop so they require buying them (what is not playing) or grinding gold. Some items in-game tent to also be best obtainable with gold (or another currency) because working directly towards them (like getting them from a drop or a reward for completing a dungeon or a JP or whatever) is not possible or nearly impossible with most of the item.

Any new item added in this way simply adds to that grind and so you can’t simply look at it as that one thing that you would then have to grind 50/80 gold for once. It’s not how the game works.

“If you want to collect everything in an MMO, you cannot avoid the grind.” It of course depends on how you define grind but in many mmo’s you can work directly towards items, in case of rng drop that might still mean farming but it’s not so that in all those other mmo’s grinding a currency is the main way to obtain items or collections like it is the main way to do it in GW2.

If you design a game to be very grindy people are going to grind. So maybe you should focus on the main problem and complain about the grindyness of the game, but that hits the cash-shop and many core design elements in the game so it will be a hard fight. I did talk about that for almost 2 years but not much improvements there. The hopefully upcoming expansion might be your only / last hope. But again, as long as the game stays grindy these sorts of things will keep happening.

Remember how a year ago you would see nearly the same thread but then about champ trains in queesndale. At best Anet can move the grinders from one place to another but as long as it’s a grindy game people are gonna grind.

Astral Projections.7320:

@Devata
@Basaltface

Gaile Gray
ArenaNet Forum Communications Team Lead
“For those of you making serious suggestions, thanks and keep ‘em coming. *For those posting off topic comments, please don’t. This is a good thread – let’s make it work.”

In other words, if you want to discuss the gemstore please make your own thread. They want this thread for suggestions only.

The thread’s name is “Suggestions Gemstore Items”, I was making suggestions about the cash-shop items so perfectly on topic. Your comment on the other hand… So in stead of trying to be the police in here (and derailing it into what is allowed and what not) just stay on topic and suggest things about Gemstore items. And like I said before, I said enough so you won’t here me about it anymore unless maybe if I would get a question or something about it.

JustTrogdor.7892:

This thread is for suggested gem store items. It isn’t for rants about the gem store and how you think you could improve the money making model Anet uses. Please don’t derail this thread. There have been plenty of other threads related to your concerns and you have posted in them often.

My only suggestion was to put these in the game what seemed 100% appropriate to this thread.

The only ‘rant’ as you name it in my original comment here was 1 sentence.

The comments talking about the cash-shop in more details where comments to people commenting on that. If they ask or say something it’s polite to give them an answerer don’t you think.

Anyway, wasn’t planning to go on about this because I have said enough about it, even tho as seen in the comments people still wrongly seem to think the cash-shop is the only way to keep the game running and the current state of the forum does also not really allow for an ongoing discussion about any subject.

Made a topic about this myself. Hadn’t seen this one (Was looking for the word ‘Expansion’).

And obviously this list is not very useful at this moment anymore, kinda late. Then again everything I suggested here I am pretty much saying for two years now, still for the sake of debate here is my list:

Oow and I will not hold back based on what I think they can / will and can / will not do, it’s a wish list.

- First of all I would hope an expansion would be the start of a model based more on expansion and a step back from the cash-shop model that we have seen being used over the last 2 years. A model more in line with GW1’s model, more regular expansion that pay the game in stead of cash-shop items. This so those items can move into the game-world itself, add meaning and reward to the content and remove the grindess in the game because the current model makes gold and grinding gold so important.

- Second I would love to see them having done a big update to the engine now allowing for a true open seamless world where there are no longer portals between all maps

- I would love to see the reintroduction of traditional quest. I like how event sheer up the world but imho they can not deliver what quest add to a game. Quest can give more feeling of adventuring and making a difference in the world where events are just things that keep popping up making them feel useless. Also reward system and small stories telling you about NPC’s can be delivered very nicely with the more traditional quest. So next to what we have now I would love to see those traditional quest

- I would love to see mounts being added and just as important fun ways to earn these mounts as that can be game-play by itself. So again no cash-shop items but earn them as reward for completing a dungeon op a JP or they might drop from a mob and so on. With this, addition the number of way-points might then also be reduce to give the world a bigger feel. This would also fit well with making it a true open seamless world.

- I would love to see some fun crafts. At this moment there are already many items (toys) in the cash-shop that in other game are rewarded by such crafts. A craft that also let you go all over the world to collect the recipe’s.

- I would love to see very customizable guild-halls.

- Also expanding on WvW would be great. Not only adding more maps but also adding to the way it works, making it more dynamic and more rewarding from a game-perspective. Maybe even partly mixing some of the dynamics in with the PvE world.

- And obviously I would like to see new maps, a new profession and a new race.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Devata.6589:

I vote for putting all the items suggested here the bing put into the game itself to be obtained in fun ways. Rewards for ‘quest’, drops from mobs, drops from dungeon bosses and so on. You know, use it to make the game better in stead of added more junk to the cash-shop not having it in the game and making it yet another grind to get any of these things.

The cash-shop focus and so putting all that sort of items in the cash-shop in stead of in the game is the main problem of this game.

No, the gem store isn’t the problem of the game, it’s the thing keeping the game going, where do you think Anet get the money to continue the support for it?

Oow at this moment it’s getting that from the cash-shop but thats a choice, it’s not a requirement. Like I said, GW1 seemed to get most of it’s money from the expansions / complains it released. What would have been a better choice.

Just being able to keep a game running does not mean it’s doing much good for the game from a game-play perspective. And for that last part it’s a problem for the game.

Basaltface.2786:

Devata.6589:

~

thing is… as good as that sounds the devs gotta get income to keep the content coming and since there isnt a monthly sub there needs to be something to loosen the money from wallets…aka the gem store exclusive items cause new copies of the game certainly dont cut it fully. With the price for the copy of the game you got more then you paid for…compared to other games with the same or similar price tag in terms of content, playtime and basically free content…so if you pretty much want to be a “freeloader” (whats totally not a wrong thing, i just lack any other word to describe it so dont take it the wrong way please ) on the gem store with converting your in game gold to gems then ya should need to grind atleast. Nothing on the gem store is P2W and you technically dont need any of the items to be equal to other people. Boosters you can get from banners, harvesting tools you can buy from every vendor, salvage kits you get from any vendor aswell. Skins, makeover kits and other stuff like this dont make your char stronger then others so you technically dont need em. Dont wanna fork over some bucks for a gem card? Totally alright.. but atleast grind a little

Sure, they can and imho should use or turn to the model they did use for GW1. So in stead of releasing an expansion once every 3 years what now seems to be the case they push out an expansion every year and earn money that way. The numbers suggest they would have earned even more money.

(Every GW1 expansion generated about 100% of it’s original income, if GW2 would have managed to do the same and with a yearly expansion they would have earned more money then they did now. I most say that the game did suffer the last years so I do not think that they will now be able to reach that 100% with an expansion but the ratio compared to the cash-shop income probably stays the same as a less popular game does not only sell less expansions but also less cash-shop sales).

As you might remember this game was released as B2P game so then expansion sales are more in the line with that model Cash-shop focus is more in the line with a F2P game.

This way those items can increase the quality and game-play of GW2 while at this moment imho they do the opposite by having turned the game into a gold-grind (Like you say yourself , while the expansions do not only add new stuff but are generating the income for the game. Win, win.

Coming back on my statement of how the current approach makes it more of a gold-grind you say it yourself “so if you pretty much want to be a “freeloader” on the gem store with converting your in game gold to gems then ya should need to grind atleast.”. Well I do not want to be a ‘freeloader’, I am very willing to pay for the game (by buying an expansion every year) but I don’t want to buy cash-shop items, I want to play the game (you see that’s what a game is for.. playing) to earn those items. And grinding gold is in no sense a fun way of playing a game, that makes the game turn into a boring job.

But it is indeed what the game is now about. Buy your stuff (and so the stuff does not really add anything to the game-play / game) or grind gold to buy it. Both not really good for the game itself imho.

“Nothing on the gem store is P2W” It kinda depends on how you define pay to win. This game is mostly about cosmetics. Getting the coolest items seems to be the main goal in this game so getting those is ‘winning’ in this game and many of those items are on the cash-shop.

So from that perspective it very much is P2W. But in the end, that is not an important question, the question is if and how it effects the game itself and we already concluded (you basically saying it yourself) it turns this game into a gold-grind, at least if you are not willing to buy items from the cash-shop but would like to have them.

In addition they are not in the game itself and so effecting the game-play also in that way. Looking at a famous other mmo out there like WoW that game has a flying carpet just as GW2 does but there it’s a reward for a craft, it has a flying broom just as GW2 does but there it’s a reward from a dungeon, it has many mini’s but 99% of them are rewards from quests, mobs, dungeons and so on. All stuff that adds to the game-play. Giving you incentive or a reason to do specific content. Making it also more fun. All stuff that in GW2 is mainly cash-shop so gives incentive to grind gold or buy it but not adding to the game-play itself.

I do not buy a game to then being able to make it a job or to buy items to be able to customize things in the game, I buy a game to play it.

What would you like to see in a upcoming expansion?

Many people think Hearth of Thorns will be the first expansion for GW2 so I would like to know what you guys would like to see.

While it would be great if Anet would do something with this information if it is an expansion It’s probably to late to implement anything said here that is new. Suggestions made on the forum over the last 2 years where more important for that but nonetheless I think it is an interesting discussion.

Please don’t be held down by ‘I don’t think they will not be able to do this’ just tell what you would like to see.

I will start by explaining what I would like to see.

First of all I would hope an expansion would be the start of a model based more on expansion and a step back from the cash-shop model that we have seen being used over the last 2 years. A model more in line with GW1’s model, more regular expansion that pay the game in stead of cash-shop items. This so those items can move into the game-world itself, add meaning and reward to the content and remove the grindess in the game because the current model makes gold and grinding gold so important.

Second I would love to see them having done a big update to the engine now allowing for a true open seamless world where there are no longer portals between all maps

I would love to see the reintroduction of traditional quest. I like how event sheer up the world but imho they can not deliver what quest add to a game. Quest can give more feeling of adventuring and making a difference in the world where events are just things that keep popping up making them feel useless. Also reward system and small stories telling you about NPC’s can be delivered very nicely with the more traditional quest. So next to what we have now I would love to see those traditional quest

I would love to see mounts being added and just as important fun ways to earn these mounts as that can be game-play by itself. So again no cash-shop items but earn them as reward for completing a dungeon op a JP or they might drop from a mob and so on. With this addition the number of way-points might then also be reduce to give the world a bigger feel. This would also fit well with making it a true open seamless world.

I would love to see some fun crafts. At this moment there are already many items (toys) in the cash-shop that in other game are rewarded by such crafts. A craft that also let you go all over the world to collect the recipe’s.

I would love to see very customizable guild-halls.

Also expanding on WvW would be great. Not only adding more maps but also adding to the way it works, making it more dynamic and more rewarding from a game-perspective. Maybe even partly mixing some of the dynamics in with the PvE world.

And obviously I would like to see new maps, a new profession and a new race.

I vote for putting all the items suggested here the bing put into the game itself to be obtained in fun ways. Rewards for ‘quest’, drops from mobs, drops from dungeon bosses and so on. You know, use it to make the game better in stead of added more junk to the cash-shop not having it in the game and making it yet another grind to get any of these things.

The cash-shop focus and so putting all that sort of items in the cash-shop in stead of in the game is the main problem of this game.

Antara.3189:

For me, it’s relatively simple.

If I’m satisfied with the product, I will happily purchase additional items for the product (Gem Store). If I’m not satisfied with what I’m getting, then I will not purchase anything.

In the past year I have not been satisified with majority of the content or direction, so I have stopped purchasing gems. This eventually led to distaste for the game, thus I have stopped playing.

However, I hope to see the game re-attract me so I can once again support the franchise.

The problem however is that in the year before you yourself have might been pushing them in that direction by buying gems.

@ Vayne.8563
-“You don’t get it. They’re not going to change things. They’ll simply shut down the game. There’s no reason for them to do this huge gamble, and it is a gamble, on trying to create content fast enough to keep people buying expansions.”-

Can’t quote for some reason so do it this way.

Oow I do get it maybe it’s even Anet who did not get it. You see I talked about this back when the game was only out for half a year (as at that moment there cash-shop focus in stead of expansion focus became clear). I have always said that it’s good in the short run but bad in the long run (while the question was if Ncsoft would even care about that).

Back then they had plenty of time to change things but they didn’t and we have seen a decrease in not ending drop in income (Q4’s not counted) since release. So at least what that go’s I can now say I was write.

Maybe they don’t care and never did see it as a long term thing but it could have been.

Numbers also show that if they where able to put out an expansion every year and would then peak at a 100% income as on original release (Like the GW1 expansions did) they would have earned more money then they did now. So yeah it would have been a gamble back then but one that resulted in more money and a better game.. Something the stakeholders would love and the gamers would love. Sadly the financial / monetize people (You know those same that advices many many games to use the P2P system and then have a game completely fail because of it).. (What the heck do those people learn??) decided different and so we got a lesser game and the investors got less money. You gotta love those people.

Anyway the big question is now not so much if they want to make the gable (because yes now it’s becoming a gable, after having scared away so many people and likely used up resources for junk) but how low is the bottom, will that be to low and will they be willing to try and get that number up again. If that bottom is to low, an they want to increase it then they don’t really have another choice.

Not sure what you mean about 8 years ago, I recently did hear even WoW was looking into releasing more expansions if that would go in pare with lovering the monthly payment it would mean at least a step into this direction. Then there is Destiny that uses a similar system (While in a bad way) and all the non-mmo’s like battlefield and GTA that use the same model.

“If’ it’s profitable for another three years they got their money and they cut their losses.” That is indeed very likely. I am sure the expansion model could have been profitable for them for over 10 years. Of course we can never know if that would be true but all the data we do have would at least suggest they would have earned more money already using that model.

“You think you’re going to change how companies do business. There aren’t enough of you for that to happen and there’s no real percentage in it for them.” For me as in that I would persuade them? Probably not. I was active in many beta forums of many mmo’s saying there P2P would not work (I have a track records of being right in 100% of those cases.. not bad) and they still seem to not have learned it. But at some point they might. Are there enough people to buy it? For sure, you can simply create a better game because you don’t have to fool people into buying in-game junk. Are there many people who would buy a good game and be willing to buy an expansion every year? More then enough..

Zera Allimatti.2541:

Devata.6589:

Zera Allimatti.2541:

Wolfey.3407:

At the end of the day, what matters is that NCSOFT is happy.
So far, they seem to be happy since they are not actively firing/ transferring
people from ANET to other projects. In fact, Anet is hiring more people than the other development teams under NCSOFT. So, they have to be doing something right to keep NCSOFT happy.

By they, you mean we. We keep spending money on gems.

Please speak for yourself. I never spend a single dime on gems and will never spend a single dime on gems. I won’t support something that is bad for the game.

For every one of you that doesn’t, enough do to keep it going.

Sadly yes, well at least they did the first two years. Numbers have been dropping all the time. Wonder where the bottom is and if that bottom is low enough for them to change things.

Ashen.2907:

Out of curiosity.

If one cannot work toward rewards/items in game how do all of the rares, exotics, legendaries, and ascended items make it into the game ?

If you how doable drop rates but in just a few places or one place for one item you can work directly towards it by doing or farming (depending on it it’s RNG or guaranteed reward) that content and then you will get the item in a reasonable time.

If you have extremely low drop rates but it can drop in many places it is not really doable to work towards getting how. However because is drops in so many places the total amount of drops on the world might still be the same. It’s just so that people who do not want get it and then sell it.

And then there are of course the cash-shop items you can also not work directly for but also only buy with cash or gold.

Funny enough you explain it yourself in point 1.

And don’t forget as long as items are not account bound grinding gold is always a viable option but now for most things it’s the only viable option.

So 2 is possible in both cases, 1 isn’t.

Well buying it with cash is imho never good from a game perspective and the balance you can simply get by locking rewards behind specific content with reasonable drop-rates (so you can work towards it) and not making most of them account-bound.

Zera Allimatti.2541:

Wolfey.3407:

At the end of the day, what matters is that NCSOFT is happy.
So far, they seem to be happy since they are not actively firing/ transferring
people from ANET to other projects. In fact, Anet is hiring more people than the other development teams under NCSOFT. So, they have to be doing something right to keep NCSOFT happy.

By they, you mean we. We keep spending money on gems.

Please speak for yourself. I never spend a single dime on gems and will never spend a single dime on gems. I won’t support something that is bad for the game.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Consider is competition or not, the whole game is build around cosmetics and then selling them or turning them into a gold grind because you want to make money on them is just as intrusive as selling stats in a game where everything is build around fighting each other. Because it messes with the core of the game.

It’s NOT the same as selling stats because stats impact performance. Skins do not. I still don’t understand what makes buying a skin, regardless of the currency source, intrusive so please do explain it.

From my perspective, someone else having a skin is not intruding on anyone’s ability to get, use or enjoy the same skin. In fact, that’s the intent of the game. The number of people that own and how they obtain those skins does not ‘devalue’ items in any way because the value of these skins is purely aesthetic for someone purchasing them. If I buy an item with in-game earned or gem-bought gold, it still looks the same on me and no one knows either way. It doesn’t affect you, you just think it does.

“It’s NOT the same as selling stats because stats impact performance. Skins do not.” I did not say it’s the same it’s just as intrusive. So what that stats are about ‘performance’ and skins about looks. It then just depends what you care about, look or ‘performance’. So at the very least it is personal what is worse but considering GW2 is all based on cosmetics you can even say in GW2 skins are worse.

I am pretty sure in GW2 there are more people interested in better skins then in ascended gear in stead of exotic what exactly proofs my point.

But like I also said before for me personally it’s not just the problem that with cash you can get that stuff easier but that the influence of the cash-shop has a negative effect on the complete game mainly turning it into a gold grind.

“The number of people that own and how they obtain those skins does not ‘devalue’ items in any way” Oow how to obtain for sure does. Thats part of the prestige. Having something that is far more harder to get is more prestige then having the same thing but you could just buy it with some cash or with some brainless grinding. Thats a huge difference.

“and no one knows either way” Indeed that makes it even worse! Because you could have worked hard for it but heey you could also have both it so if you worked hard for it you where basically just punishing yourself. If people see it they don’t give it any value from a prestige perspective because you could have cheated and just spend some bugs on it. About the rarity, also that matters because as soon as you see something a lot it’s less special. But thats not really relevant here.

So it effects it for sure. It’s basically the same as that one painting from one guy has more value then a painting from another guy simply because it’s from that one guy.

However again I like to say again while I agree this is intrusive for me the problem is even more the way it effects the game in general and devaluating items (what this is about) is just one element of that.

DeWolfe.2174:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Consider the entire game a giant competition against all the other players. You want to out do them ,have the shiner items the rarer items basically have what they don’t and can’t get.

That’s actually the exact opposite of what I want out of a game. I do care about what my characters look like for my own sake. Not some superficial bunk over what others have.

Still does not change much as getting most of those things mean grinding gold or buying with cash in stead of really playing for it. And that has a lot to do with the cash-shop.

Obtena.7952:

Conski Deshan.2057:

I still disagree and feel the gem conversion to be very invasive, it allows a new player to potentially catch up to my account in a fraction of the time it took me using money which I’m not ok with, it devalues my efforts. It also allows a bad player to have access to more skins than they’d earn.

That assessment is flawed because it’s applying competitive thinking to a non-competitive environment. There is no ‘catch up’ and purchases with gem-bought gold is earning as well, it’s simply a player’s decision to earn with RL money or time. You’re efforts are not devalued because someone values their time/money differently than you do. If anything, you devalue your own efforts because of your comparative approach.

Besides, it’s transparent to you. You have no idea how someone obtained loot, so you can’t claim it devalues what you have done to earn your own. It’s quite illogical to think in this manner.

Consider is competition or not, the whole game is build around cosmetics and then selling them or turning them into a gold grind because you want to make money on them is just as intrusive as selling stats in a game where everything is build around fighting each other. Because it messes with the core of the game.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Stooperdale.3560:

Let the company make their money. The gem shop does not infringe on the game play. Most micro transaction MMOs would have locked the wallet, the wardrobe, etc behind a gem store transaction. All the ‘quality of life’ improvements that do come through the gem store seem reasonable enough, and I don’t begrudge anyone their infinite mining pick if they want to buy it.

I actually find the gem store to be incredibly invasive in this game, I feel you’re thinking along classic MMO lines where skins in the gem store is ok.

In traditional MMO’s stats are the progression and if a store put raid quality gear for sale in their gem store there’d be a riot.
In Gw2 skins are the horizontal progression, the “victory condition” so to speak and as such skins or any method allowing for faster acquisition of skins constitutes interfering with game-play /progression.

So I take issues with two things that allow money to give a significant advantage
1. Skins in the gem store/black lion (Roughly 510~ skins including each weight as a separate skin).
2. Gem to gold conversion (due to the excessive amount of tradable/gold buy-able skins this offers a massive advantage.)

If I was redesigning the gem store I’d

Remove
Gem > Gold (And vice versa if needed for that to happen).
All skins, a player should only look as good as what they’ve earned in game.
Watch-work Pick.
Any home instance improvements.

Use as main source of income
Basic account upgrades (Bank,bag,character slots).
Server transfers.
Name changes.
Gender changes.
Makeover kit.

these are all standard things that don’t interfere with the game.

Additional items
Permanent tools with no advantages ever.
Miniatures (introduce more RNG boxes for these if you have to have something for the whales to buy).
Toys, for playing around in cities (not combat usable).
Musical Instruments.
LS episodes.

These are additional fun items that don’t cause an issue (mini’s are technically iffy but is a concession I’m willing to make).

If those changes were implemented I would be perfectly content with the gem store in the game. If I want to support the game I can for some fun stuff while it is not interfering with game play , as a bonus you now have 510 skins that can be used as rewards for in-game content allowing you to spend more time on content design.

Almost agree just take away the Additional items and expand on those with game-play in expansions and use those expansions for income.

Musical Instruments for examples, like I said in my first post in this thread. There could be an awesome musician craft in this game sending you all over the world to learn the instruments collect them and get rare ones. Hours and hours of fun game-play could be added with this. Same for all the toys and mini’s. Putting those things in a cash-shop takes all the from the game.

For example those mini’s in other mmo’s one of the main things I did was collecting those things in the game. In GW2 that is just grinding gold or spending cash so no thanks but it also means that hole game-play element is gone.

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

The only reason the gem shop is a grind is because we can convert in game coin into gems. So are you suggesting that they should eliminate the exchange because it’s obviously causing you “harm” because you can’t resist using the cash shop for “free”.

And because you can convert it the other way around. When people could work more directly for the items it would be less interesting to buy gold but because everything is a gold grind people are now more likely to buy gold for cash. So thats not likely a coincident.

It’s implied that if you remove one side of the exchange that you remove the other since buying gems with gold supplies the gold for the selling gems side and vice versa.

Problem is you can’t sustain a modern MMO on just yearly paid expansions. GW wasn’t a conventional MMO. And once the paid expansions stopped, so did content updates. And GW did have a cash shop, just one focused on account items and costumes.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_In-Game_Store

“Problem is you can’t sustain a modern MMO” Where do you base that on? It’s a myth. Looking at the numbers GW2 would have likely earned more if they had sold an expansion every year and no cash-shop compared to the current model. Also look at all the none-mmo’s out there. They use this exact same model (selling the game an expansion or the sequel) and manage to keep a franchise running for years. They to have to patch the game and keep servers running.

Everything points towards it working out, it’s just not a common used model in the MMO marked but then again, F2P wasn’t a common used model 5 years ago.

Yes GW1 did get a cash-shop but it did not have a focus on it. Thats the big difference. Look at your own link and see whats in it and compare that to the GW2 cash-shop.
You really wanna argue thats the same thing?

—

Oke one positive thing then about the cash-shop. After games as WoW and Minecraft and a few others where featured in South Park, thanks to the cash-shop, GW2 was also talked about in South Park. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac well sort of.

Okay. How can you say my analysis is based on a myth while in the next sentence you declare they would have been rolling in Scrooge McDuck mounds of money if they released an expansion? Do you have a window into a parallel universe where GW2 was expansion based? Do I call you Walter or Billy? (Fringe joke)

It is easier to develop stand alone instanced missions for limited party size and then stitch them together than create content that scales from 1 to 100 players depending on who’s passing by at the time. That’s not a myth.

I did not state that and said where I based what I said on.. Read again “Looking at the numbers GW2 would have likely earned more if they had sold an expansion every year and no cash-shop compared to the current model.”

More detailed explanation here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Deprioritizing-Monetization/first#post4606955

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

The only reason the gem shop is a grind is because we can convert in game coin into gems. So are you suggesting that they should eliminate the exchange because it’s obviously causing you “harm” because you can’t resist using the cash shop for “free”.

And because you can convert it the other way around. When people could work more directly for the items it would be less interesting to buy gold but because everything is a gold grind people are now more likely to buy gold for cash. So thats not likely a coincident.

It’s implied that if you remove one side of the exchange that you remove the other since buying gems with gold supplies the gold for the selling gems side and vice versa.

Problem is you can’t sustain a modern MMO on just yearly paid expansions. GW wasn’t a conventional MMO. And once the paid expansions stopped, so did content updates. And GW did have a cash shop, just one focused on account items and costumes.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_In-Game_Store

“Problem is you can’t sustain a modern MMO” Where do you base that on? It’s a myth. Looking at the numbers GW2 would have likely earned more if they had sold an expansion every year and no cash-shop compared to the current model. Also look at all the none-mmo’s out there. They use this exact same model (selling the game an expansion or the sequel) and manage to keep a franchise running for years. They to have to patch the game and keep servers running.

Everything points towards it working out, it’s just not a common used model in the MMO marked but then again, F2P wasn’t a common used model 5 years ago.

Yes GW1 did get a cash-shop but it did not have a focus on it. Thats the big difference. Look at your own link and see whats in it and compare that to the GW2 cash-shop.
You really wanna argue thats the same thing?

—

Oke one positive thing then about the cash-shop. After games as WoW and Minecraft and a few others where featured in South Park, thanks to the cash-shop, GW2 was also talked about in South Park. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac well sort of.

Azala Yar.7693:

Devata.6589:

Stooperdale.3560:

Let the company make their money. The gem shop does not infringe on the game play. Most micro transaction MMOs would have locked the wallet, the wardrobe, etc behind a gem store transaction. All the ‘quality of life’ improvements that do come through the gem store seem reasonable enough, and I don’t begrudge anyone their infinite mining pick if they want to buy it.

“Let the company make their money.” Sure there are many ways to do that, some better then other.

“The gem shop does not infringe on the game play.” It very mutch does, it makes it much more of a grind.

“Most micro transaction MMOs would have locked the wallet, the wardrobe, etc behind a gem store transaction.”
If it was a true F2P game (so without initial buy) I rather would have these one time unlocks as that would make it in fact more of a B2P game then having rewards / items linked to the cash-shop. Especially in a game that is all about cosmetics. In a game that is all about cosmetics, putting cosmetics in the cash-shop is the P2W equivalent of putting stats in a cash-shop that is about competition.

“All the ‘quality of life’ improvements that do come through the gem store seem reasonable enough” Like adding a lot of junk to the game so every body’s bags are filling up and then starting to sell the possibility to allow for more items per slot Yeah that does seem fair enough.. not.

“and I don’t begrudge anyone their infinite mining pick if they want to buy it.” Because having to grind to get it or buying it with real cash is much better then having some actual game-play (you know it’s a game) around it that rewards you this sort of items. Adding more to do to the game and giving the content nice rewards. No we would not want that.

Actually you’re right in this game it does have more of an impact, than it does in EQ2 or Eve online because those other games also have a subscription method.

The problem here they need to make it more of a grind to try and encourage people to use the shop, especially those that are impatient and want everything now.

You could also argue that it’s only a grind because you treat it as such.

“The problem here they need to make it more of a grind to try and encourage people to use the shop,” Yeah that is my hole point and shows how it negatively effects the game. There are many people who complain about something like the grind or lack of end-game or LS and so on, and on the other side do defend the cash-shop so they fail to see the link between the cash-shop and what they dislike from the game.

“especially those that are impatient and want everything now” That is not really true. It’s not that people could also simply wait longer. Because long before they would then have it new stuff would be added so they would get more and more behind.

“You could also argue that it’s only a grind because you treat it as such.” No because for example I don’t.. I don’t grind because I hate to grind but when you don’t grind what is there left to do? Some JP’s once in a while and guild-missions once a week? In other mmo’s I loved to go and find special mini’s in the world or other special items. There are usually some fun crafts that can keep you busy. But really most of the fun items / rewards in this game are only really obtainable by grinding. So if hunting those items down is what you like to do there is not much other game-play / end-game left.

Behellagh.1468:

The only reason the gem shop is a grind is because we can convert in game coin into gems. So are you suggesting that they should eliminate the exchange because it’s obviously causing you “harm” because you can’t resist using the cash shop for “free”.

And because you can convert it the other way around. When people could work more directly for the items it would be less interesting to buy gold but because everything is a gold grind people are now more likely to buy gold for cash. So thats not likely a coincident.

What I am suggesting is to release an expansion every year and putting all those items in there. You see.. there are all those instruments now in the cash-shop.. They could have added an awesome musician craft to the game.

Where you had to go over the hole world to get the instruments and to learn songs on them and maybe there where some with special skins hidden. That would have given the instruments more value and added a lot of fun game-play. Now with the cash-shop way it’s just an item you buy or grind for. The first expansion could also have added a barber and the second could have added some hair-cuts. Dyes could be hidden in the game as specific colors or also part of crafts and so on.. and so on. In total adding hours and hours and hours of game-play in stead the grind or buy.

So when they then release an expansion with these things they can leave them out of the cash-shop and adding game-play and endgame.

The only things being left in the cash-shop would then be out of game things like a transfer a total make-over kit, additional character slots. And yes then it would be fine if you could not transfer gold to gems and gems to gold.

Simply removing the exchange would not work because it would turn of to many people meaning they would have to turn to other methods to sell there stuff that would also hurt the game.

Mordeus.1234:

I think they’ve struck a decent balance between free content and the gemstore. They could be charging people upfront for the Living Story, but the fact that they have given a grace period where it can be unlocked for free is something quite remarkable. If this was any other mmorpg with non-subscription model, they’d be charging it up front. Or be billing it as part of an expansion.

There are times where I wish things weren’t monetized but GW2 has struck it’s own balance that sets it apart from the other mmorpgs. I’m completely fine with buying certain things from the gemstore if it means supporting the developers. I do draw line between some things that are simply not worth the gems. I hope other players do too, so that forces them to put up quality items in the gemstore. But overall, they need to turn a profit without forcing a subscription and I respect that.

What I fear is that deprioritizing how they are currently monetizing things, may lead to some rather unsatisfactory solutions or outcomes. It sounds like a case of becareful what you wish for.

One upside to the gem based content or general stuff, if that we as consumers can direct the game’s content if we vote with our wallets. There are going to be those who splurge on everything, but there is at least an opportunity for us to reward good stuff with gems and shun the bad. Probably works in theory rather than in practice. But luckily nothing major has been hidden behind paywalls like in other games that rely on a gemstore model.

It’s not about what they sell, it’s about how that effects the game in a negative way. And paying for a good expansion where then the LS was part of I would be fine with. In fact that is what I signed up for buying a B2P game. If that means no cash-shop that turns this game in to a boring gold grind.

“What I fear is that deprioritizing how they are currently monetizing things, may lead to some rather unsatisfactory solutions or outcomes.” Thats why you have to say what you want instead. Like an expansion once a year to earn the money that way. It would cost me personally more as I never buy a gem because I don’t want to support the destruction of this game. But still I would prefer that because I might then have to pay more but also expect to get a better game for it.

Stooperdale.3560:

Let the company make their money. The gem shop does not infringe on the game play. Most micro transaction MMOs would have locked the wallet, the wardrobe, etc behind a gem store transaction. All the ‘quality of life’ improvements that do come through the gem store seem reasonable enough, and I don’t begrudge anyone their infinite mining pick if they want to buy it.

“Let the company make their money.” Sure there are many ways to do that, some better then other.

“The gem shop does not infringe on the game play.” It very mutch does, it makes it much more of a grind.

“Most micro transaction MMOs would have locked the wallet, the wardrobe, etc behind a gem store transaction.”
If it was a true F2P game (so without initial buy) I rather would have these one time unlocks as that would make it in fact more of a B2P game then having rewards / items linked to the cash-shop. Especially in a game that is all about cosmetics. In a game that is all about cosmetics, putting cosmetics in the cash-shop is the P2W equivalent of putting stats in a cash-shop that is about competition.

“All the ‘quality of life’ improvements that do come through the gem store seem reasonable enough” Like adding a lot of junk to the game so every body’s bags are filling up and then starting to sell the possibility to allow for more items per slot Yeah that does seem fair enough.. not.

“and I don’t begrudge anyone their infinite mining pick if they want to buy it.” Because having to grind to get it or buying it with real cash is much better then having some actual game-play (you know it’s a game) around it that rewards you this sort of items. Adding more to do to the game and giving the content nice rewards. No we would not want that.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I would bet on it … considering that investors put money up front to fund the development based on that mode. IF income is dropping, making a radical move to change it is more risky than having better offerings in the gemstore.

“considering that investors put money up front to fund the development based on that mode.” You don’t know the pitch so you don’t know that.

“IF income is dropping” Yes it is as can be seen in the quarterly reports.

“making a radical move to change it is more risky than having better offerings in the gemstore.” Maybe but if income is dropping anyway and the game has provided the money investors wanted they might want to do that. All those games that where pitched with a P2P model that then completely failed did change there model to get at least the money they could with a cheap F2P model.

GW2 isn’t completely failing so radical moves like making a completely different game model isn’t necessary and would likely not be approved by investors. You’re right, I don’t know the pitch. I simply said I would bet on the pitch that we have now being the one that the investors bought into through evidence that it’s successful after 2 years.

I mean, we can argue all this back and forth. I’m not really interested in having an academic argument with someone that doesn’t understand the business relationships that drive the reasons we have cash stop or might change how it would work. The model we have works and it’s fair for everyone. It doesn’t need to change because a few people can’t ignore gem marketing or can’t get over the idea that the game doesn’t work the way they want it to. IMO, those are rather stupid reasons to upset what is generally a successful model for an MMO business.

It works as in keeping the game alive. But it’s not the best for keeping the game at a high quality and it’s bad in the long run.. the long run , something I said 1,5 years ago but we can now also simply see by the income numbers.

The problem is simply how it effects the game itself in a negative way.

“IMO, those are rather stupid reasons to upset what is generally a successful model for an MMO business.” It’s a successful model in the business because it’s easy and low-risk. But it’s not good for the quality as the game. I think it’s rather stupid if people don’t make that difference when talking about successful. The fact that it’s good for the company does not mean it’s good for the customer / the product and so is not really a good excuse.

Obtena.7952:

I would bet on it … considering that investors put money up front to fund the development based on that mode. IF income is dropping, making a radical move to change it is more risky than having better offerings in the gemstore.

“considering that investors put money up front to fund the development based on that mode.” You don’t know the pitch so you don’t know that.

“IF income is dropping” Yes it is as can be seen in the quarterly reports.

“making a radical move to change it is more risky than having better offerings in the gemstore.” Maybe but if income is dropping anyway and the game has provided the money investors wanted they might want to do that. All those games that where pitched with a P2P model that then completely failed did change there model to get at least the money they could with a cheap F2P model.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Thats funny because you would think they pitched the model that worked so great for GW1 and also the one they told the customers we would get. And at release they said it was a B2P game and the cash-shop would only have a very minimized role.

There is also no reason why investors would not be satisfied with that B2P pitch especially because Anet could point towards GW1.

The whole LS is something they started with months after release so you can really wonder if that was part of the pitch as well.

The argument here isn’t that investors may have liked a similar model as GW1. The relevant argument is investors bought into the model that GW2 uses now. Your perception that we didn’t get the model we were pitched is just a matter of opinion. I think it’s disingenuous to claim the gemstore has anything but a minimal role in playing the game; nothing in the gemstore is necessary to play this game … for free. Again, if the model of the game doesn’t satisfy you for whatever reason, you have choices as a consumer to take your time/money to a game that does.

The point you make about LS is an interesting sidebar. IIRC, the pitch of an evolving game world was always there … LS fulfills that beyond my expectations. I’ve not played many games where the devs change the world to the extent I see in GW2. I think that’s awesome and makes me hope that at some point, PLAYERS will be able to have an effect in changing the world to the same extent. That’s exciting.

“The relevant argument is investors bought into the model that GW2 uses now.” But is that true. Are you sure they pitched a cash-shop model? It’s what they ended up using I don’t know if it’s what they pitched and even if they did it’s still relevant because it’s not good for the game and it’s time to change it. With income dropping it’s time for a new pitch.

" I think it’s disingenuous to claim the gemstore has anything but a minimal role in playing the game; nothing in the gemstore is necessary to play this game" I did give perfect examples of how it effects the game. Yes you can play it without using it, I never said you could not but it does very much effects how the game works.

“I think that’s awesome and makes me hope that at some point, PLAYERS will be able to have an effect in changing the world to the same extent. "

It’s nice for you that you like the LS but as you know it’s not very popular in the community as a hole and players effect it will not happen, not other then what we did see with the voting. Thats simply is not possible if you design a scripted story. If you really want players to have an effect on the game you would need sandbox elements. That is they only way you really get a living breathing world that really changed (in ways not though of by developers) by players.

The LS is not the tool for that, a sandbox is.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

It wouldn’t work.. there would be less drive to buy gems for gold and well there would be no items in the cash-shop because they would be in the game where you could directly work towards them… what you can’t in the cash-shop.

That’s a nice ideal, academic point of view but that’s not how the game works. It’s not how the game could be changed to work either and this is why.

This isn’t a university experiment in MMO business models … it’s a real business that answers to investors who expect the business model they were pitched would make money. The reason it won’t change to a different model is is because it DOES satisfy the investors; as long as investors are satisfied, there is NO chance in hell that Anet or their parent company would propose screwing with the model they are using.

Thats funny because you would think they pitched the model that worked so great for GW1 and also the one they told the customers we would get. And at release they said it was a B2P game and the cash-shop would only have a very minimized role.

There is also no reason why investors would not be satisfied with that B2P pitch especially because Anet could point towards GW1.

The whole LS is something they started with months after release so you can really wonder if that was part of the pitch as well.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

It does because you said you can do the content you like to do. Well I like to work directly towards items. Thats the content I like to do. But you can´t really.

You have to argue within the context of the game if you want to have a reasonable discussion about how the game works. You’re perspective is not relevant to the context of GW2 because we know GW2 doesn’t work that way. If you don’t like not being directly rewarded in GW2, you know what the answer to that is.

I still don’t see how your issue with no-direct rewards is relevant to the thread. Even if you WERE rewarded directly with things you wanted, I don’t see that having an influence on how the gemstore works.

Why would not not be within the context. The OP is also talking about things that are not good in the game because of the payment model (or how it effects the game) so it’s completely relevant to talk about that. Yes this is not how it works in the game and that has a lot to do with the payment model (as the two are linked to each other.. making it this way gives more reasons to buy gems to buy geld and for the cash-shop items itself grinding gold is also the only really game way of getting them).

It’s really strange to think you where not allowed to talk about it because it’s not the way it works. Then you should never talk about something that is wrong in the game.. or how it would be better because well thats now how it works so not in the context and so should not be talked about. Sorry but thats complete nonsense.

And the thread is also about how monetization effects the game (in a negative way) so if you do not see how this is relevant to the thread I think thats a problem on your side.

“Even if you WERE rewarded directly with things you wanted, I don’t see that having an influence on how the gemstore works.”

It wouldn’t work.. there would be less drive to buy gems for gold and well there would be no items in the cash-shop because they would be in the game where you could directly work towards them… what you can’t in the cash-shop.

nightwulf.1986:

Devata.6589:

cranked.3812:

Consensus.2785:

I completely agree. One thing that makes me quite uncomfortable is the feeling that everywhere I look I’m being asked for gems, gems and more gems. If you don’t have skill you need money, if you don’t have time you need money, if you want to get a certain skin, you need money. The current approach is excessive and disappointing (In my person opinion) considering the usual MMO approach is: go on an adventure, face a challenge and get rewarded, which is basically being bypassed by anyone with a fat wallet.

I’m not getting your point here. If you don’t have skill or time and you want something, the answer in any other facet of life is to have money.

What it basically boils down to is you either put in the time to grind for what you want or you spend money on it. That is, and always will be, the trade off. Everything in game can be obtained either way. This is not something anet has invented.

It’s a game, it’s supposed to be fun, it’s not supposed to be a real live simulator.

You should go into the world have an epic adventure (doing a dungeon) and get a cool drop related to that adventure. That is fun loot, thats a game.

Buying an item with cash is not playing a game. And doing some brainless thing like killing champions over and over again to get stuff you don’t want to sell that to earn money (so grinding) to then buy what you want thats also not what a game should be about.

I think what’s missing from this analysis is perspective. There has been and probably will always be a market in mmos for people who want to use money instead of time and skill to get what they want. It’s pretty much the entire reason for the RMT industry. There are many facets to the decision to implement a gem for gold system in Guild Wars 2. Illicit RMT is one of them. Even in games where there is no official cash to in-game money system, third parties stepped in to fill that lucrative void and made/make a lot of money in the process. In a perfect world, no one would want to pay real money to skip to the end of an in-game goal. But we don’t live in that world.

We can argue on what is a worthwhile task in game to achieve something but I just wanted to get the elephant in the room out of the way.

Oow I am very much aware there is a marked for it, all F2P are running on that marked. But it does not improve the quality of the game and there very well is also a marked for quality good games so I would rather have Anet aiming for that last market. Sadly you can´t really combine the two because the bite each other, history has proven that.

And based at the numbers we have Anet would have even earned more with a true B2P model so it´s also not like this cash-shop market is the most lucrative. The biggest draw it has for company´s is that it´s a low-risk approach.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

I find it fun to directly work towards an item I am interested in.

Sure but that doesn’t have anything to do with what I’ve said. There isn’t a way to be directly rewarded with anything in this game, especially from gemstore. Anet allows players to have fun and earn gold doing anything. Players still have the choice of getting gems with their gold ingame or money outside the game.

It does because you said you can do the content you like to do. Well I like to work directly towards items. Thats the content I like to do. But you can´t really.

For example I loved to do the MF dungeon back during season one and I really had fun of doing it. However a big part of that was the mini and backpack dropping in there. Especially for re-playability. Now you can do it in fractals but with those two rewards gone I really don´t care for doing it anymore.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

It’s a game, it’s supposed to be fun, it’s not supposed to be a real live simulator.

That’s the nice thing about GW2 … you can play, have fun AND get gold to buy gems if that’s what you want to do. Anet don’t actually make you choose between your time and your RL money. You can use one or the other, or a mixture of the two. It’s a really smart and player-conscious approach.

I find it fun to directly work towards an item I am interested in. Thats what at least partly drives me to do that content and make it more interesting (if it’s rng every time that feeling of will it drop or not and if it does that awesome feeling) and if it’s an guaranteed drop it’s the thrill of completing it.

In most mmo’s thats also what I did most of the time. For example I did see this cool mini, found out where and how to get it and when on my way, then I did see a skin again found out how to get it and went on my way, another mini, a special recipe for a nice craft and so on. In this game for 90% the way to get it is the same.. grind gold and then you can just do anything and it might take forever or do whatever go’s the fastest. Thats what most people do but I consider that really boring. What I then still like to do purely for fun.. Well JP’s but I never ever get the gold I would need to get the thinks I would want. SAB was awesome but thats gone.

Just doing it to slowly see a number (gold) going up, knowing exactly how long it will take (for example 5 gold per hour, you need 50 gold to 50 hours) thats boring as hell. And if it was that a few things would work this way so you would earn that money along the way.. sure that would be fine but most of the rewards work this way so you will always have to look at getting more gold.

No that is not what I consider a fun way of playing.

And it’s not a really smart and player-conscious approach. It’s a way to try and get people to buy gems.

Besides this excuse (just do what you like, earn gold that way… grind gold) you are using is used a lot to counter when this is broth up, like if it’s something special this current approach adds.

But thats of course completely false. Do it the way I say and don’t make those items account-bound and the option to grind gold (or like you like to say it.. do what you like and earn gold that way) is still an option if you like to do that. That does not change.
But working directly towards it (what I like) and giving it that extra to the content (rush of will it drop or not) that is not in the current approach.

Of course the buying it with real cash part would be gone but that has nothing to do with playing a game and it completely devaluates the items from a game-play perspective… Oow he has that item, did he do some hard content for it or did he just throw in some cash?

cranked.3812:

Consensus.2785:

I completely agree. One thing that makes me quite uncomfortable is the feeling that everywhere I look I’m being asked for gems, gems and more gems. If you don’t have skill you need money, if you don’t have time you need money, if you want to get a certain skin, you need money. The current approach is excessive and disappointing (In my person opinion) considering the usual MMO approach is: go on an adventure, face a challenge and get rewarded, which is basically being bypassed by anyone with a fat wallet.

I’m not getting your point here. If you don’t have skill or time and you want something, the answer in any other facet of life is to have money.

What it basically boils down to is you either put in the time to grind for what you want or you spend money on it. That is, and always will be, the trade off. Everything in game can be obtained either way. This is not something anet has invented.

It’s a game, it’s supposed to be fun, it’s not supposed to be a real live simulator.

You should go into the world have an epic adventure (doing a dungeon) and get a cool drop related to that adventure. That is fun loot, thats a game.

Buying an item with cash is not playing a game. And doing some brainless thing like killing champions over and over again to get stuff you don’t want to sell that to earn money (so grinding) to then buy what you want thats also not what a game should be about.

Azala Yar.7693:

Not sure what to make of this thread.

The trend was noticeable many months ago, reducing the amount of currency gained from drops was a huge hint.

I’ve not actually played for many months and even I noticed the trend way back then. I also purchased gems from the in game shop as it was a quick way to gain in game currency. Part of the problem with levelling characters too fast with poor world drop rates, without resorting to joining the boss kill trains.

Well then you did fall for there ‘trap’ to get you buying gems and so supported that behavior even more.

I did never buy a single gem to make sure I did not support it sadly enough to many people did.

How about the payment model. Same for the grind / RNG also many topics about that. While both are related to each other and both are related to multiple topics you do mention those two themself are not on your list.

Torvic.8256:

Talk about being late to the party!

Despite having bought GW2 in November 2012, I’ve only recently finished the Personal Story (whereas you all probably finished it two years ago). It was a pretty cool and sometimes poignant journey from my middle-class male human ranger (as his great-great-great-etc. grandfather was 250 years earlier in GW1) defending the Village of Shaemoor from centaurs to killing the Elder Undead Dragon Zhaitan above the skies of Orr as the Commander of the Pact.

What was especially heartening was how festive the celebratory ending of the campaign was, definitely making the whole journey worth it! This was in stark contrast to the original ending of the Prophecies campaign, which quite frankly was pretty subdued and even somewhat melancholy. Though I heard that Anet later revamped Prophecies’ ending to be more joyous and celebratory, I never got around to checking it out, and I never got around to see the endings of Factions, Nightfall and Eye of the North, so I don’t know if they were joyous and celebratory as well.

On the flip side, I didn’t have time to fully partake in Living Story Season 1 and thus will never again have the chance to experience the mysterious beginnings of that season and then facing off against Scarlet Briar time and again, finally to defeat her for good above the skies of Lion’s Arch. Sure I can watch YouTube videos of others doing all that, but it’s just not the same as actually experiencing it for myself the first time around, especially with my ranger as the hero.

When my ranger returned to Fort Trinity after helping to kill Zhaitan, I could fully appreciate the celebrations there and all around Tyria since he went through all of the preceding struggles to get there. Conversely, I felt a bit out of place when my ranger visited the tavern post-Scarlet, since he hardly knew anyone there (despite the dialogue trees) yet they all seemed to know him and it hardly felt that he did anything to reach that point. I now wish more than ever that I had the time to play the entire Season 1 content, but alas…

That makes me all the more grateful that Anet has allowed all the chapters for Living Story Season 2 to be saved for later consumption, particularly now that I’ve finished the Personal Story and I’m now ready for the first episode even though the seventh episode has already been released. It’ll still feel pretty weird, though, like watching Star Wars: A New Hope and then skipping to Return of the Jedi without watching The Empire Strikes Back in between.

Sorry for the long post and thank you for indulging me.

“That makes me all the more grateful that Anet has allowed all the chapters for Living Story Season 2 to be saved for later consumption”
Don’t forget to thank all the people lobbying for that here in the forums (and on YouTube) as that is what it took to get Anet to change that.

Consensus.2785:

~

It’s not so much about Deprioritizing Monetization because they still need to make money, it’s about changing it.

Here is my thread about it: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/first#post3324571

Many people indeed fail to see the connection, they say they do not like elements of the game but don’t see how it’s related to the current payment-model (Cash-shop focus)

Some farming you find in every MMO but the currency grind in GW2 is the most I personally had in any MMO. But that makes senses. If you would be able to directly work towards all items in the game gold would be less important and so buying gems to convert to gold would also be less interesting. So obviously Anet does not make it so you can work directly towards to a specific items (by putting it in a specific place with a low enough RNG rate it’s doable to get it) but they put it in many places but with such a high RNG that you can almost never really work towards getting it other then grinding gold and then buying it. It’s that boring grind many people dislike.

And of course the same holds true for any items they put in the cash-shop. You want it? You buy it with cash or grind gold to buy it.

It’s in my opinion the biggest mistake they did made.

There would be no need to do this if they would go with a true B2P (The way they released the games and many people might have expected it to be based on GW1) and so release an expansion about once a year. So more like the model they used in GW1. Also we would have gotten more real game-content in the form of more maps, new crafts and so on because thats the sort of stuff you add in expansions.

Overall I think it would have been a better game that would have managed to get a high popularity along the way.

Not only that but when you look at the income https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg and where to make a relative comparison using GW1 you see that GW1 had a peak of 100% income compared to it’s own release. If you would do the same with GW2 as if it would have gotten an expansion once a year and no other money in-between GW2 would have earned more money then it did using the current model. Some people think this F2P type of model GW2 is now using is the only viable but simply looking at the numbers we have thats false. A true B2P model (when the expansions would be of a good quality) would have earned them more.

The current model did do a lot of damage to the game and when GW2 will get an expansion (many people are expecting one somewhere between now and the 3 year mark) I think you will see that because the sales will be much lower then the original game sales. Thats what I expect.

The only option I see for GW2 to stay one of the bigger players in the future (so long term) is to indeed turn away from there cash-shop model and back to a B2P model and making this also very clear to the public. Getting rid of the all the grind and putting 99% of those cash-shop items in the game in fun ways to get them (that is what playing a game is.. not grinding gold to buy it or just buying it with cash). If they don’t I think that this game will not be one of the bigger games out there anymore when it hit’s the 3 year mark or maybe half a year later if they indeed do release an expansion in-between that time. It will then simply be one of the smaller MMO’s a small fan-base is still playing but that is really not interesting for most people.

—

Lastly to answer you two questions: “Does a micro-transactional model promote an even spread of content as well as set a platform for longevity?”

If it comes to longevity, absolutely not and we have already seen that (ongoing decrease of income) so it’s a question we really already know the answer to. Sure it will be able to drag the game a long for a long time but with this model when the game hits 2,5 / 3,5 years max! (depending if we get an expansion in-between and other patches) it’s just one of the smaller older MMO’s out that’s that is not a big player anymore and only has still a small fan-base playing. While with a B2P model I think it could have stayed being one of the bigger players easily for 10 years.

“Will ArenaNet we able to deliver all that was promised based on their current LS and Gem Store model?”
Again this question has already been answered. They said the LS would deliver the content we would normally see in an expansion. Well looking at what that marked in general does GW2 would already have had an expansion by now. (WoW for example was one of the games that took very long, maybe even the longest of the bigger MMO’s out there to release it’s first expansion, 2 years and almost 2 months. A time long passed now with GW2) But it didn’t and more important to answer this question, in that time it did also not deliver the content we would normally see in an expansion.

I still vote for simply getting less currency’s in the world and letting the game be less currency driven. If you want an item you should be able (and it should be the most effective way) to directly work for the item. Getting it as guaranteed drop or RNG but in a way you can directly work towards the item in stead of the currency way of doing things where everybody grind a currency and then buys what he wants. That just turns everything into a boring currency (mainly gold) grind.

I would suggest to remove most currencies and make currencies in general (mainly) gold less important by allowing to obtain items more directly in the game.

Middzz.1490:

The other point is the maps the POI, vistas ridges etc etc are simply not designed for mounts try using you broomstick carpet etc to navigate out of a very limited area.
You asking not only for mounts but in effect map redesign as well though the supporters will deny this .It would be required.
Unless well you could leave your mount bottom vista for example climb return to find it eaten by wildlife ,salvage some horsemeat that can go to buy your next mount .
The image of mounts running off the narrow paths in EOTM or traversing Orr and the screams complaints could envisage nearly make me support the idea of mounts .

Oow yeah please get rid of those as well. They turn map-completion into a checklist you have to cross of. No fun in that.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Tachenon.5270:

Maybe waypoints and portals are illogical, but is the lore. Asura transportation for the win! in gw1 they were used for coninent to coninent travel, now they have finetuned the system.

/e walks off in the distance adored by dolyaks, moas, and other critters who know and show they’re happy someone stood up for them!

Oth and as an afterthought I’d love it if mordremoth destroys 50-80% of all waypoints and we get nothing as compensation, the maps will be thriving with life. And still the animals will celebrate my being their spokes(wo)man, and adore me every step I take, maybe not in Orr, but then again, I do not need a risen thrall as mount.

I salute thee mount-lovers, and must compare you with the necrid horsemen of ages gone by!

Portals are part of the lore, way-points aren’t. I know that in a recent LS they did try to add them, only so they had a story reason to remove them but realy there are not part of the lore. NPC’s also never use them and sometimes we even need to guard NPC’s moving from one way-point to the next way-point. Somebody once said to me “well but they are poor so might not have the money for the way-point”, the only problem with that is that they pay me for helping them get there.

With all due respect, way-points make no sense AND are no part of the lore.

Personally I still think way-points where originally never meant to be in the game. You see, if you see very old pictures of maps and video’s from GW2 you will see there are area’s on the map that is now in-between maps, also a video showing LA looks completely different, more like an entrance to LA that is not there.

Based on that I believe they originally wanted a real open seamless world like any modern MMO. But they somehow failed in that and so had to use multiple instances for every map. With that they would then have a problem, when you would now use mounts you and needed to go to a place 3 maps away you would have 3 loading screens. So I think that is why they came up with way-points. Not as an innovative idea but as a solution to a problem.

Of course I have no real proof and it might be false. But it would explain the area’s on the maps that are now gone, the area’s in old trailers and why we have way-points while they don’t make any sense.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em0Sd60iI2w&t=2m35s you see what I think was the original entrance to LA.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Guhracie.3419:

Devata.6589:

Cithryth.6741:

~

Maybe they did not mention it becouse the way to get those is very boring in many cases and you will likely often run into a skin you like only to find out getting it is almost impossible.

That is, if you are not willing to spend a lot of money on the cash-shop to buy all of it.
I personally also care more about cosmetics then stats and it is what I loved to collect in most games. In GW2 however while there is much more of these things collecting them usually ends up in a boring gold grind and so is the least fun way compared to those other games.

That might be a reason they didn’t mention it.

Oh, come on. I’m disgruntled enough right now that I’m getting infractions left and right, and even I can see that there are PLENTY of gorgeous skins that are easy to acquire in-game. You do not have to pay outrageous sums to have fun with the wardrobe/creation tools.

There are skins easy available but many of the best looking aren’t (like any of the black lion ticket skins).
Sure you can do a lot when you take those out of the equation but if you just look at what people have and then decide you want one of those then you are very likely to walk into this problem. And thats how many people who like cosmetic work. They see something what they like and then go to get that yourself. Also all near hearstyles are lock behind a lot of gold.
And mini’s (I see them also as cosmetics) collecting them is also mainly grinding gold because 90% from them you can only buy with gold.

Yeah you can for sure play around with the wardrobe system but if you really want to go for skins you see and like you will very often run into this problem.

The fact that there are also nice skins you can get in other ways does not change that.

Except of course if you like to grind grind grind (gold). Then this is an option and basically the end-game in GW2 (PvE).

I like skins. Skins is my game. However, shiny bright skins aren’t a big deal to me, because that’s not how I wear or look at skins.

Each character has a theme. Something that makes them them. They have clothing or items that “fit” them.

It’s not only one thing. It’s a range of things. There are plenty of items in game for me to get a look I like without going to the cash shop. Not that I haven’t gone to the cash shop occasionally if I like something, but most of the cash shop outfits, as an example, I don’t really like at all.

You can be completely into skins and not even think about the cash shop…except for transmutation stones…which if you PvP isn’t really a problem….or if you world complete on multiple characters.

Depends on how you play it. But like I said before, if you look at other placers, then see something nice and decide you want that… and thats the way you find most of the skins you like then you are very likely to run into this problem.

Besides you even say you buy things that you like. Well then of course there is no problem is there. That’s the hole point and of how it works. Problem at least for me is that usually in mmo’s that is my game-play. I will not only not buy from the cash-shop because I don’t want to support the cash-shop (because it takes away that game-play) but also because fun ways to get those items is how I play mmo’s. What is taken away now.

So yes if you are just buying the items you like from the cash-shop you have no problem, and if you just work with whatever you have unlocked in the wardrobe you also have no problem.

But if you look at what people use, then decide you want to go for that and that is you preferred way of playing then you will run into the grind grind grind problem a lot. So if OP’s friends experience that the same way that might be a reason for not mentioning cosmetics because for them it has the link with the endless grind.

I do like cosmetics but if I was to talk with anybody about GW2 I would not talk about all the cosmetics because obtaining much of it simply is not fun. So when you do focus on those cosmetics the game can become extremely frustrating. It’s that part that GW2 does not to add as game-play but as monetization. So if you like cosmetics you will get pushed to buy all the time, and if you don’t there is grind grind grind.

Guhracie.3419:

Devata.6589:

Cithryth.6741:

A little over a year ago some of my friends started playing GW2. They tried explaining the good things about the game and why my husband and I should start playing with them. “Open world dynamic events,” they said. “Living Story,” they said. While it sounded intriguing I wasn’t convinced enough to put down $50 to try another MMO.

Fast forward to the end of September of this year. Husband and I hear about the free trial week and 50% off price. “Why not?” we say and begin downloading.

Within two days I was hooked and we each bought the game. But not because of any of the things my friends had tried to use to convince us to play (though they are pretty good too) – No, I am hooked because of the cosmetics.

Why, oh why, hadn’t my friends ever mentioned the extensive collection of dyes? Or the amazingly detailed and option-rich character creation? Or the wide variety of weapon and armor skins?

Nearly two months later and I am still hooked on this game. My main character is a Sylvari mesmer, all decked out in the Orchid armor set dyed a beautiful deep purple to match her skin, hair, and glow color.

I definitely still have heaps to learn. But I think I am going to be here awhile

Maybe they did not mention it becouse the way to get those is very boring in many cases and you will likely often run into a skin you like only to find out getting it is almost impossible.

That is, if you are not willing to spend a lot of money on the cash-shop to buy all of it.
I personally also care more about cosmetics then stats and it is what I loved to collect in most games. In GW2 however while there is much more of these things collecting them usually ends up in a boring gold grind and so is the least fun way compared to those other games.

That might be a reason they didn’t mention it.

Oh, come on. I’m disgruntled enough right now that I’m getting infractions left and right, and even I can see that there are PLENTY of gorgeous skins that are easy to acquire in-game. You do not have to pay outrageous sums to have fun with the wardrobe/creation tools.

There are skins easy available but many of the best looking aren’t (like any of the black lion ticket skins).
Sure you can do a lot when you take those out of the equation but if you just look at what people have and then decide you want one of those then you are very likely to walk into this problem. And thats how many people who like cosmetic work. They see something what they like and then go to get that yourself. Also all near hearstyles are lock behind a lot of gold.
And mini’s (I see them also as cosmetics) collecting them is also mainly grinding gold because 90% from them you can only buy with gold.

Yeah you can for sure play around with the wardrobe system but if you really want to go for skins you see and like you will very often run into this problem.

The fact that there are also nice skins you can get in other ways does not change that.

Except of course if you like to grind grind grind (gold). Then this is an option and basically the end-game in GW2 (PvE).

Cithryth.6741:

A little over a year ago some of my friends started playing GW2. They tried explaining the good things about the game and why my husband and I should start playing with them. “Open world dynamic events,” they said. “Living Story,” they said. While it sounded intriguing I wasn’t convinced enough to put down $50 to try another MMO.

Fast forward to the end of September of this year. Husband and I hear about the free trial week and 50% off price. “Why not?” we say and begin downloading.

Within two days I was hooked and we each bought the game. But not because of any of the things my friends had tried to use to convince us to play (though they are pretty good too) – No, I am hooked because of the cosmetics.

Why, oh why, hadn’t my friends ever mentioned the extensive collection of dyes? Or the amazingly detailed and option-rich character creation? Or the wide variety of weapon and armor skins?

Nearly two months later and I am still hooked on this game. My main character is a Sylvari mesmer, all decked out in the Orchid armor set dyed a beautiful deep purple to match her skin, hair, and glow color.

I definitely still have heaps to learn. But I think I am going to be here awhile

Maybe they did not mention it becouse the way to get those is very boring in many cases and you will likely often run into a skin you like only to find out getting it is almost impossible.

That is, if you are not willing to spend a lot of money on the cash-shop to buy all of it.
I personally also care more about cosmetics then stats and it is what I loved to collect in most games. In GW2 however while there is much more of these things collecting them usually ends up in a boring gold grind and so is the least fun way compared to those other games.

That might be a reason they didn’t mention it.

uknortherner.2670:

So when it comes down to it, the pro-mount argument can be boiled down to the following:

1) Mounts are cool.
2) I want one.
3) Other MMOs have them.
4) I’m a Skritt obsessed with collecting shiny things.

Hardly compelling reasons for wasting resources and besides, you already have “mounts” in the Gem store. Go and play with those.

1 cool / fun.

You do understand those 4 things are basically the main reason why most things are in this game? Legendary’s, or any weapon skin for that matter, mini’s, armor skins, toys and so on.

In addition you forget a few.

If implemented correctly (So NOT using the cash-shop or some boring gold grind) collecting them can be a game-play by itself.

So 5 Added gameplay.

And 6 other more fun form of fast travel that makes more sense and does not shrink the world as much as way-points do.

I do wonder what you want to waste resources on because likely they will be for the same reasons as this list.

Linnael.1069:

The reason precursors feel so nasty to acquire isn’t that they’re too rare. Based on my knowledge of MMOs, players will literally grind for anything. The problem is that they’re too distributed.

Spamming autoattack on world bosses and farm trains shouldn’t get you essentially the same odds for a precursor as Arah or FotM 50. There’s absolutely no reason for there to even be a minuscule chance of them dropping off of trash mobs.

When so much faceroll content has odds of dropping a pre, the odds for any given activity have to be crazy low to keep the supply limited. Players are pushed into this global lottery where nothing feels like progression. Why work my way up to harder content if it won’t even improve my chances?

This leads to a situation where the most effective method is to find the easiest gold grind and buy it off the TP, rather than actually putting any effort into playing the game. This feel cheap to do, and is the reason why legendaries have near zero prestige right now. When you see a legendary these days, all it means is “farmer” or “RNGeesus”.

My suggestion:Take precursors off of trash mob loot tables. Take them out of afk-auto world bosses. Dramatically raise the odds of them dropping in actual content, so that players get to feel like they can do something about getting them, and they regain a bit of prestige factor.

What do you guys think? Would it actually help the process of getting a legendary feel more special, or would it see too much casual backlash?

Thats the main problem with any reward. Much items can drop anywhere but extremely extremely rare. Meaning you can’t work directly towards it. What then results in people grinding stuff they don’t want to sell to get gold to buy what they want. And of course then there are the cash-shop items you can also only get for gold. Those things together make everything a gold grind. (what might be great for there cash-shop but bad for the game).

The only difference with precursors is that the drop-rate is even more rate so the price is even higher so the grind takes even longer. But essential this is how much of the rewarding in GW2 works.

And yes that is not good but for as long as they use the cash-shop to generate income I don’t think this will change a lot. But maybe your lucky and they will then change it for the precursors.

Behellagh.1468:

That’s because you probably don’t remember the time a movie could run for a season in a first run theater as oppose the 4-6 weeks today. Star Wars in 77 didn’t start taking in a huge amount of money for the time until weeks 5-13. By 1989 after the notion of block busters and tent pole movies became the way it reverted more toward i]what we see today but Batman lasted 11 weeks in first run theaters.

The current feeling of failure is due to how movie ticket income is split between the theater and studio. Usually the first two weeks it’s now 10/90 between theater and studio. So it’s in the studio’s interest that the opening week or two is huge because after that the split becomes fairer for theaters. Their is a reason a liter of soda is $5 and a couple of cups of popped popcorn is $6.

So now even the public believes that if the opening weekend is poor that the movie isn’t worth seeing. It has become a self-fulling prophecy.

That’s why I don’t dismiss only after one full quarter’s of income. Let’s see where that game is in a year. They may be able to turn it around but I would still think that they will have to be forced into F2P/Hybrid simply because in NA/EU, that’s the income model players are willing to support. There is only room for one game with a subscription and we know which one that is.

“but I would still think that they will have to be forced into F2P/Hybrid simply because in NA/EU, that’s the income model players are willing to support.”
So you first tell you would want to wait a year before you decide if the game ‘failed’. But then tell you think they have to go F2P because the current model does not work.

Part of there package was the P2P. If they have to change that into something else again I see that again as a fail because what they envisioned did not worked / failed.

What you seem to be talking about is more the question if they can make the correct changes (inducing payment model) to turn the tide (what would not be needed in the first place if everything was going fine!). And if they then manage to get things going again you still consider it a success. So maybe our definition is different.

In that case I see it as a game that (from a commercial viewpoint) did (originally) fail but after some changes they managed to get it back on the rails. Meaning it was off the rails and if something go’s of the rails that is kinda a fail. I never said the game was dead. It simply did imho not meat the expectation and so in that way it failed.

BTW the other way around is also possible. GW2 was a success and I don’t know what Anet and NcSoft do see as long term goals for GW2 but I do feel (and have for a long time) that the game has a problem if it comes to the long term. What those numbers seem to back up. So it’s also possible a game is a success but the in the long run it is still a fail (See destiny, they have plants for 10 years I think, so far it’s a success but if the game pretty much dies after 5 years that part would still be a fail) or the game dies anyway. I also think Anet needs to make changes to keep GW2 healthy for the long term and I have said that from about half a year after release. However it’s clear that (at least for the shorter term (2/3 years) GW2 was a huge success.