Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

Devata.6589:

You know what would be convenient, if there was an NPC in every city that would freely hand out everything you want. Any item in the game you can get there. No need to earn it, extremely convenient and if that NPC would be put there today many people would go there. However it would also completely devaluate all items in the game and by doing that killing the game.

Not helpful.

You know what would be really helpful? When you would quote correctly. (Fixed it for you in this post)

And it’s not a counter argument, it’s just an example to answer "Why would it be better to force other players to play the way you’d like when you have the option to play the way you like when they have the option. "

It does counter this part “The only thing it would accomplish is to take the other players desired play style away.” as the example shows that is accomplish other things. But its not to counter his complete reply.

While I did doubted for a moment if I would post it because I figured it might seem to come over that I countered a statement about it being a convenient while he did not bring that up (what would make it a Straw man). But then I figured people would be smart enough to see how it was an example to show what I just explained to you.

Oow and it has nothing to do with a ‘Reductio ad absurdum’ maybe you mean a Hyperbole ? Yes the example was a hyperbole but there is nothing wrong with that.

Gaile Gray.6029:

khani.4786:

DarkOcean.8746:

My immersion is broken when Rytlock jumps into the ghost hole in one of the LS instances! I don’t like seeing my character spaz out in the background!

You mean the hole that doesn’t appear? Last few times I’ve done this the ground doesn’t break and Rytlock just jumps into the solid rock. o.o

Hmmmm… Have you submitted an in-game bug report for that?

Skaigash.4715:

GOSU.9574:

Gaile Gray.6029:

So the animations were temporarily removed to be worked on and reincorporated in a way that allowed them to perform normally in the game but to stop (or maybe change) during cinematics. But getting to a place where the animations could be configured on a more fine-grained basis took more time than anticipated.

So the fact it was officially stated some time ago the animation missing was a “bug” is now officially countered with the fact it was removed.

Was kinda hard to sell that an entire frame set of animations going missing was due to a “bug”.

Yeah, it being a “bug” was very strange. But I could go with Gaile’s explanation; I think it’s reasonable. I’ll take it as one of those “we’re upgrading to serve you better” things.

I don’t know what was said previously, but doesn’t “bug” work in the context of this situation? It wasn’t intended that the animations play during particular moments. They played. That sounds bug-ish to me. (Unless you’re suggesting that their not playing was called a “bug” as if someone thought they should be playing rather than that they were intentionally disabled. That could be a simple matter of misunderstanding, misuse of the word, or miscommunication. It seems rather a minor point to me.

Again, for clarity: Because the animations were not appropriate for the setting, they were disabled. They will be re-enabled when they can operate as intended. We don’t have a timeframe for this at the present time.

Better solution would be doing it the other way around. Enabling it and then add the fix later.

In addition the walking animation can also be fixed as this is no problem in those situations.

CrashTestAuto.9108:

I really hope this isn’t available outside trib mode. Currently SAB has a brilliant reward system. Anyone can get blues, which means that the skin type is available to all. Then, people who do trib get a weapon of equal quality, but with the kudos of only being available through trib mode.

It’s exactly what the Fervid Censer and Desert Rose should have been. One for “being there” and one for everyone, but both the same quality.

By all means, put the blue SAB weapons into PvP. But please don’t ruin the only non-RNG based but difficult to get items we have

Yeah it is indeed one of the better reward systems in the game and that is also at least part of the reason why SAB is so popular.

If they would put this in the game (other then a reward in SAB) it would devalue yet another set of items.

If you want to make those skins available again, bring SAB back again. Best solution.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Devata.6589:

skullmount.1758:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

SNIP

Your starting quote is actually false. “Everything there is subjective?”

No. Some of that was most definitely fact. It is a fact that less waypointing encourages exploration because it forces it. It is an observable fact that fewer waypoints increases the importance of revives. It is a fact that smaller maps spread the population less.

None of these are subjective qualities. To say otherwise is to not understand the definitions of subjective and objective.

Now, can you make a point that waypointing is efficient and convenient and that some players will prefer this style of gameplay? Yes. Yes you can. And balls to your efficiency; virtually every flaw with the game’s dungeon metas has been the direct result of players pursuing efficiency. There. Now THAT is subjective.

Less waypoints does and does not encourage/force exploration. Even with the waypoints that exist in the starting maps still required exploration. Exploration is only really good for the first time somewhere. Just because we have waypoints doesn’t mean there is no exploration. It just makes it easier to get back to someplace later on.

Less waypoints does and doesn’t make revives more important. If people are going to revive someone it doesn’t matter if there is a waypoint close or not (for the most part). Its up to the players (both reviver and revivee). Its the reviver’s choice whether or not to stop and revive someone or just keep going. Same with the revivee, its their choice to sit there and hope to get revived or waypoint and run back.

Running on a map to get to some way-points, PoI’s, vista’s and hearths is not what I consider exploring. What I consider exploring is going into a map, seeing something in the distance that gets your attention, going there to see what it is, maybe there is an NPC who gives you a quest telling something about him or the area and sending you eventually to another place. Along the way you see yet something else interesting so you check that out and so on, and so on.

So to that degree there is not exploring in GW2 at all, there is just checking of places you need to visit for map completion. But without the way-points at least you travel over the land seeing things you might have missed before and you would else never have seen again because you way-point skipping that area onces you run passed it before when running from one way-point to the next. So it gives a little more that feeling of exploring but more important it makes everything feel a bit more as one thing, one big world in stead of little islands where there is something to do for you.

That’s the heart of it. Map completion isn’t exploring. A typical player going for map completion will simply brush past content, barely scratching the surface. They MIGHT discover about a fourth of what the game has to offer (events, unique mob concentrations, npc’s/dialogue, and simple sights that the developers put hard work into creating).

With the few-waypoint system, travel becomes a more active, time-consuming part of the play experience. “But isn’t that a bad thing?” No. Because, even on simple, typical brushes through terrain, players are bound to discover new objects of interest through repeated trips.

So yes, there is an encouraged exploration as a direct consequence of having fewer waypoints.

At the same time, I say that revives are encouraged because the importance of reviving is increased. Defending the fort becomes that much more difficult if you allow that player to die, as it will take much more time for said player to come back to your aid. This also increases the importance of preventatives (like healing) for the same reason.

Yeah imho they could even take away the PoI’s. If a point is interesting is up to the up to the player.
The PoI’s make it more a place everybody runs by because they need it as part of the map-completion then a place people come across, explore and might find interesting. It also makes it more special to find that place if it’s not just a point on the map everybody runs to for map-completion. Doing it the current way simply creates a completely different mentality of playing then with not having way-points and PoI’s. With these things the mentality really becomes striping of a list of places on the maps you need to run by for your map completion in stead of having a exploration mentality where you really explore a map.

skullmount.1758:

Devata.6589:

skullmount.1758:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

SNIP

Your starting quote is actually false. “Everything there is subjective?”

No. Some of that was most definitely fact. It is a fact that less waypointing encourages exploration because it forces it. It is an observable fact that fewer waypoints increases the importance of revives. It is a fact that smaller maps spread the population less.

None of these are subjective qualities. To say otherwise is to not understand the definitions of subjective and objective.

Now, can you make a point that waypointing is efficient and convenient and that some players will prefer this style of gameplay? Yes. Yes you can. And balls to your efficiency; virtually every flaw with the game’s dungeon metas has been the direct result of players pursuing efficiency. There. Now THAT is subjective.

Less waypoints does and does not encourage/force exploration. Even with the waypoints that exist in the starting maps still required exploration. Exploration is only really good for the first time somewhere. Just because we have waypoints doesn’t mean there is no exploration. It just makes it easier to get back to someplace later on.

Less waypoints does and doesn’t make revives more important. If people are going to revive someone it doesn’t matter if there is a waypoint close or not (for the most part). Its up to the players (both reviver and revivee). Its the reviver’s choice whether or not to stop and revive someone or just keep going. Same with the revivee, its their choice to sit there and hope to get revived or waypoint and run back.

Running on a map to get to some way-points, PoI’s, vista’s and hearths is not what I consider exploring. What I consider exploring is going into a map, seeing something in the distance that gets your attention, going there to see what it is, maybe there is an NPC who gives you a quest telling something about him or the area and sending you eventually to another place. Along the way you see yet something else interesting so you check that out and so on, and so on.

So to that degree there is not exploring in GW2 at all, there is just checking of places you need to visit for map completion. But without the way-points at least you travel over the land seeing things you might have missed before and you would else never have seen again because you way-point skipping that area onces you run passed it before when running from one way-point to the next. So it gives a little more that feeling of exploring but more important it makes everything feel a bit more as one thing, one big world in stead of little islands where there is something to do for you.

But theres also the opposite of that. What if you died near the place you were going to? Then you’d have to run all the way back there and most likely have to hope to remember where you were and how you got there. At least having a waypoint close by means you don’t have to waste all that time running back there, and can get right back to exploring/getting to that point you want.

That is why they usually have mounts. But still that small convenient (I always said way-points are a form of conveniences and this is just an example of that (travel to places faster)) does imho not out-way the negatives.

spiritus.7983:

well, I’m from a backwater part of the world so thats why I have such low consumer expectations, but if it is as expected: Consumer version 1920×1080, for ~300$… fk yea, who can refuse that?
So ANet, any info for us? Yes?, No? and no PR bs like “we consider it”))

Well thats one of the problems of this thing. 1920×1080 might seem nice but it’s right up you face and even blown up a little. I have used the first and the second version but vision is blurry on both (those have lower resolutions). The 3th version (not available yet) has a higher resolution but you can wonder if thats still enough. Maybe you are going to need 5k for this to be a good resolution.

However high frame-rate (to overcome all problems I did read somewhere that 1000 FPS @ 1000Hz would be optimal.. but lets for now keep it at 120 FPS @ 120 Hz), a low latency and no input lag are also very important. Else people will get sick of it very soon.

Also the movement of your head should be correct with the movement of the screen (something the 3th party drivers tent to get wrong).

So while virtual reality (there are more options then just the OR) is very interesting, be aware that there are still many problems to overcome before you would get a really good experience.

However Anet should try to look into that already. A problem I see game-wise is that it only makes sense in first person.

skullmount.1758:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

SNIP

Your starting quote is actually false. “Everything there is subjective?”

No. Some of that was most definitely fact. It is a fact that less waypointing encourages exploration because it forces it. It is an observable fact that fewer waypoints increases the importance of revives. It is a fact that smaller maps spread the population less.

None of these are subjective qualities. To say otherwise is to not understand the definitions of subjective and objective.

Now, can you make a point that waypointing is efficient and convenient and that some players will prefer this style of gameplay? Yes. Yes you can. And balls to your efficiency; virtually every flaw with the game’s dungeon metas has been the direct result of players pursuing efficiency. There. Now THAT is subjective.

Less waypoints does and does not encourage/force exploration. Even with the waypoints that exist in the starting maps still required exploration. Exploration is only really good for the first time somewhere. Just because we have waypoints doesn’t mean there is no exploration. It just makes it easier to get back to someplace later on.

Less waypoints does and doesn’t make revives more important. If people are going to revive someone it doesn’t matter if there is a waypoint close or not (for the most part). Its up to the players (both reviver and revivee). Its the reviver’s choice whether or not to stop and revive someone or just keep going. Same with the revivee, its their choice to sit there and hope to get revived or waypoint and run back.

Running on a map to get to some way-points, PoI’s, vista’s and hearths is not what I consider exploring. What I consider exploring is going into a map, seeing something in the distance that gets your attention, going there to see what it is, maybe there is an NPC who gives you a quest telling something about him or the area and sending you eventually to another place. Along the way you see yet something else interesting so you check that out and so on, and so on.

So to that degree there is not exploring in GW2 at all, there is just checking of places you need to visit for map completion. But without the way-points at least you travel over the land seeing things you might have missed before and you would else never have seen again because you way-point skipping that area onces you run passed it before when running from one way-point to the next. So it gives a little more that feeling of exploring but more important it makes everything feel a bit more as one thing, one big world in stead of little islands where there is something to do for you.

Malin.2490:

VodCom.6924:

Devata.6589:

Malin.2490:

Teq is a great example there, it is very easy to explain to someone what is important to do in the main dps zerg, but there are so many other roles to have once you’ve got bored with that bit. You can learn while watching others, without messing things up for them.

To me Teq seems now also like easy content. Once people learned the trick the challenge was pretty much gone. There are a few roles (DPS, turret and turret defender) that is good but I would not say Teq was able to keep itself challenging overtime. Not that that is necessarily a problem but I would not use it as an example of being that.

Same for fractals btw. It mainly gets harder because of agony, you then earn better agony resistance and so get put on the same level again and that repeats until you get against the wall of having the max agony resistance you can get. When in the future that gets higher people will also be able to get a higher level. But the difficulty scale does not really change that much. The fact that a new player can not do fractals level 50 is for 75% because he does not have the agony resistance and has not much to do with how good he is. It is in essence a type of tier grind.

If you really want to keep things hard over time you make the fights in fact less about one specific mechanic (just for the record, I do thinks raid dungeons should use many mechanics) you need to learn but give it a better AI that uses a lot of randomizer in it’s code. That way there is no trick you can learn that then trivializes the content.

I guess everything becomes easy once you know it by heart

After this, it’s a matter of forgiving vs unforgiving encounter design. Teq is very forgiving in this regard, while TT isn’t that much.

This is exactly why I brought up Teq. At the time I was very hesitant about large group content and had no interest in it, but thanks to the fact that it was accessible even to people unused to it (as long as there were people giving orders and knowing what to do) made me preserver, and now I love it. Had TT been the first thing I tried, I doubt I would have stuck with it…

I think what I mean is that we need both simpler raids and more challenging ones, otherwise it’s gonna split people into those who loves raiding and those who never dares to try.

I agree with that, but that means having multiple content, not one thing that you can scale or base around one mechanic that people will learn, making that content trivial.

Meglobob.8620:

Lack of waypoints is bad…

Downtime, travelling from a to b becomes very repetitive after a while…its new and shiney now but after its been around sometime it will become increasingly annoying.

I still prefer it and I have seen it in other mmo’s for years. So I would not consider the lack of way-points new and shiny.

Essence Snow.3194:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

hydeaut.1758:

Fernling.1729:

Yeah, the waypoints make the world feel tiny.

And no waypoints make a tiny map feel big . . .

This map needs a ton of players and coordination to beat it, lack of waypoints and mechanics like damage over time in lost castles won´t help to fill it in the long run.

This will probably end with an empty map – except for planned, coordinated runs like Tequatl or dry top rank 6.

In attempting to refute his argument, you literally just explained why fewer waypoints is a perfect system.

The Silverwastes single/few waypoint system allows content to feel bigger without actually being bigger, increasing its value while also encouraging players to explore it.

This is a far superior approach to larger maps with more waypoints, as it has nowhere near the population spread. This allows players to group up more (while split-encouraging mechanics like those of Silverwastes prevent mindless zerging). The result is a more immersive world that is much less resource-intensive to update and to run. As an added bonus, this type of content holds up FAR better to subsequent updates. A world of large zones will quickly become overstretched, causing worse and worse community spread and more dead zones. Hell, we have already seen this occur.

And that’s not even mentioning the gameplay benefits. Encouraged exploration. Increased emphasis on reviving, healing, and team play. The list goes on.

Quite frankly, Guild Wars 2 would be twice the game that it is now if it had launched with this form of design.

Everything there is subjective. Obviously everyone does not feel the same way. Why would it be better to force other players to play the way you’d like when you have the option to play the way you like when they have the option. The only thing it would accomplish is to take the other players desired play style away.

Let me see if I can explain this by putting the shoe on the other foot.

They introduce a zone where you MUST use way points. Some players love it and suggest all zones should be that way regardless of others liking to run everywhere and immerse themselves in the journey, b/c it feels more efficient to them. Even though they already have the option to use way points in all the other zones, they still want to force you to use them too.

Doesn’t seem like quite such a good idea does it?

When not using way-points in a game that has way-points all over the place you are giving your a disadvantage over the other players so it’s not as simple as “just use them” plus it’s human nature that you always look for the path of least resistance while at the same time that can and will take away the fun. Simply the fact that there is that path of least resistance does that.

So no convenience is not automatically good in a game.

You know what would be convenient, if there was an NPC in every city that would freely hand out everything you want. Any item in the game you can get there. No need to earn it, extremely convenient and if that NPC would be put there today many people would go there. However it would also completely devaluate all items in the game and by doing that killing the game.

So simply because people might like the conveniences way-points provide it does not mean it’s automatically good for the game in general. In all honestly I think mounts are a better form of fast travel then way-points are. They add new content (collecting those mounts) and they prevent scaling down the world because you can way-point everywhere while still giving you a way to travel to places fast enough. (Mounts is just one example, public transport like a trains and other fast travel points would imho also do a better job then way-points) But of course way-points are much more convenient.

Malin.2490:

Teq is a great example there, it is very easy to explain to someone what is important to do in the main dps zerg, but there are so many other roles to have once you’ve got bored with that bit. You can learn while watching others, without messing things up for them.

To me Teq seems now also like easy content. Once people learned the trick the challenge was pretty much gone. There are a few roles (DPS, turret and turret defender) that is good but I would not say Teq was able to keep itself challenging overtime. Not that that is necessarily a problem but I would not use it as an example of being that.

Same for fractals btw. It mainly gets harder because of agony, you then earn better agony resistance and so get put on the same level again and that repeats until you get against the wall of having the max agony resistance you can get. When in the future that gets higher people will also be able to get a higher level. But the difficulty scale does not really change that much. The fact that a new player can not do fractals level 50 is for 75% because he does not have the agony resistance and has not much to do with how good he is. It is in essence a type of tier grind.

If you really want to keep things hard over time you make the fights in fact less about one specific mechanic (just for the record, I do thinks raid dungeons should use many mechanics) you need to learn but give it a better AI that uses a lot of randomizer in it’s code. That way there is no trick you can learn that then trivializes the content.

Elrey.5472:

1: Knowledge. No matter how good you are, if you don’t understand the fight you should not suceed.
2: Skill. Totally needed, of course.
3: Rewards. A raid won’t matter at all if nobody wants to go there because the rewards are not rewarding enough. Would be a wasteland, a waste of dev efforts, a wasted chance to teach players how to improve…. etc

However knowledge will eventually mean ‘did you read / learn or did somebody tell you the mechanics / trick’ while skill means ‘how good are you’?

If I would apply that to a JP. If the blocks you jump on are all moving but always at the same speed you will learn the trick (have that knowledge), you know when you need to jump and so it becomes easy. Skill would be if the blocks all would move random all the time and you would still be able to do it. You are simply skilled in jumping vs you did learn the trick / mechanics.

If you think learning that trick is more important that is fine but I say this because I wonder how you would define knowledge and skill?

My top 3.

Well it’s not really a top 3 I find them all of equal importance. In addition I have one other parallel priority that is more about the rewarding in the raid content then about the raid content itself.
Because I do feel the rewarding is at least as important as the content itself I will put that in here as number 4.

1. Raid content should be for groups of 10 to 25 people but for every group there should be different content. Don’t use scaling (for example to make one raid content that is ment for different group sizes).

2. Use roles. The raid content should make good use of different roles. Think about invisibility role, pets role, portal role but also water is strong against fire and so on. Roles will make that everybody is and feels like being needed and so prevent a ‘DPS is better then everything else’, what many people already complain about.

Edit added based on Chris his top 3.
(So yes to some extent I do think the group setup is important. Not as in you need two necro’s, two rangers, one warrior and so on. But more in the line of you need at least one of role x and at least two of role y and so on. Else you will likely get the same problem many people complain about in dungeons (learn the trick and then dps dps dps). And with raids (more people) that problem would become even bigger creating possible new zerg-content that becomes pretty brainless (Because Knowledge can and likely will become a trick!). That is what history did learn us.. Based on that Skill > Raid Group Setup > Knowledge)

3. Raid content does not have to be long (if you make multiple like I suggested in priority 1 some can be long and some can be short) but should be hard. However hard does not mean much damage and HP for bosses. It means good mechanics. Like using those roles from priority 2 but also think about things like using multiple groups to move a robot (everybody using another part) that is used to attack the boss. And so on, be creative. Good interesting fun hard mechanics.

4. Interesting reward. Don’t make it about any type of currency but about items. Allow for unlocking rewards (like with an achievement for killing a boss). That is a 100% reward but will only be interesting for once so for re-playability add a few very interesting RNG rewards. For example an awesome weapon skin, an awesome hat skin an awesome mini skin and a great blue-print for in the guild-hall (if that ever comes), think about the mini and backpack skin in the MF dungeon. In most games I would say don’t make them account bound but because in GW2 is everything so much currency-focused here I would say make these rewards account bound so they hold there true value linked to the content.
Optional you can have a token system much like dungeons for a set that go’s with the content but that should not be meant as the main thing, more a nice addition you earn along the way.

Breckmoney.6387:

Mystic.5934:

I haven’t been able to play yet. I hear the zone is small, but is it obvious that it get bigger like how dry top did?

There are a few areas that are blocked off by vines, so maybe?

It’s already about the same size as dry-top and when compared with other maps it’s 1/3th of a map (so not sure what it has a separate name). So it’s likely at some point the last 3th of the map will be added at some point.

I do wonder if the complete map will then get one name of will keep being 3 separate names.

It reminds me of the endless number of mount threads where the anti-mount people talked about no need for mounts because of way-points and (more relevant for this) how the pro-mount people would then see way-points go while way-points where great according to them, much better the no way-points like other games.

Wonder how those people feel about that (waypoints are great and should not be removed / should also be added in new maps) now.

Anyway, I like it while it would then also be nice to have an alternative for a little faster travel.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Tao.5096:

Devata.6589:

That was my point indeed. You don’t like it, report and move on.

Hard to catch your point when you give an example which turns out that moderator doing his work properly as in enforcing forum rules in threads is offending.

:|

You consider it doing his work properly, I consider it offensive and that shows that what is offensive is just an opinion. Because of that it’s something you can report, ingame you can ignore and thats it. But it’s not something you should automatically expect that ingame a person gets banned because he does something that is offensive to you.

I could come with other reasons why closing those threads is bad and why they should not do it, but the ‘offensive’ claim is not automatically a reason for a ban / a reason to stop doing that.

So you made the same conclusion as I did. Report, ignore and move on if ‘offended’ is your problem.

Offensive is an opinion….that said…we do have social mores that any venue has a right to require when entering their premises.

I can wear no shirt on the street….as a man anyway. But I can’t enter certain restaurants without a shirt….most even…because there are rules of that place.

Racism is against the terms of service. Therefore the person is violating a rule they agreed to to enter this venue.

Now, it’s true I can block and move on, but that’s not the point. If it’s against the TOS and I’m offended by it, I have every right to complain about it.

Free speech exists to guarantee that people won’t be sent to jail for talking bad about those in power.

In most places it’s still illegal to yell “fire” in a crowded theater.

Yet the question then is if it’s racist. It’s not racist just because somebody is offended by it.

Yelling fire in a theater is illegal because it’s causing uproars. It’s not the same as giving a opinion or an idea or a vision. Nor does it have anything to do with somebody being offended and so it should not be allowed. What the discussion is about. So a completely irrelevant example.

Tao.5096:

Devata.6589:

That was my point indeed. You don’t like it, report and move on.

Hard to catch your point when you give an example which turns out that moderator doing his work properly as in enforcing forum rules in threads is offending.

:|

You consider it doing his work properly, I consider it offensive and that shows that what is offensive is just an opinion. Because of that it’s something you can report, ingame you can ignore and thats it. But it’s not something you should automatically expect that ingame a person gets banned because he does something that is offensive to you.

I could come with other reasons why closing those threads is bad and why they should not do it, but the ‘offensive’ claim is not automatically a reason for a ban / a reason to stop doing that.

So you made the same conclusion as I did. Report, ignore and move on if ‘offended’ is your problem.

Tao.5096:

Devata.6589:

Lots and lots of good threads.

Last thread I considered interesting that was closed was this one https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Good-luck-everyone/page/2#post4536494

Also there where a few reactions added in an old thread a few days ago. When I checked later all those post where deleted to berry that thread again. While there was nothing wrong with those comments.

But that doesn’t really matter. I just said that as example to show that ‘offensive’ is personal. That is why you can’t expect somebody to get banned for saying something you consider offensive. Likely somebody else will be offensed because of that ban so what about that person? Kitten him?

Hi everyone,
Since this thread couldn’t stay constructive, we’ll now close it.
Thank you for your understanding.

What’s there hard to understand?

I see plenty of such threads being closed and majority of them have been closed because of one single reason – lack of constructive feedback and flaming/raging.
There are forum rules, there is common sense, there are moderators who keep a check on threads to not let them get out of the hand.

Blame people who turn such threads into flame zone and lure trolls and people who seek carnage.

They do their job properly and if they’ll make a mistake, which may happen because they’re living beings after all, then send a ticket to support and ask them for clean up and open desired thread.

If you believe that Gw2 Forum Moderators are rude and whatsoever then go to other games forums and see how people are treated there, where you’re allowed to leave only positive and constructive feedback.

That was my point indeed. You don’t like it, report and move on.

phys.7689:

free speech is not unlimited. you dont get to do and say whatever you want

If it comes to expressing your opinion! I 100% disagree with you and say free speech should be 100% unlimited. But this is a game so the free speech discussion does not really apply here anyway. The question here is if something is bannable because it’s offensive to another player.

And then in general sense I say no, you can’t expect something to be bannable because you feel it’s offensive to you.

phys.7689:

Devata.6589:

phys.7689:

Devata.6589:

emikochan.8504:

Devata/Lanfear stop being ignorant. It’s not a double standard.

Saying that is not a double standard (you referring to lanfear) now that’s what I consider racism. Because you agree that purely based on color one person is allowed to do / say something and another is not. That’s pretty mutch the definition of racism,

Anyway, this is going way to much off topic.

OP did say multiple things but most of the post was about people saying things he did not like (where rude according to him). Not saying what that was. So it’s everybody’s guess what those things where. But like I said before, what is offensive for one person might not be offensive for the other and denying it might also be offensive for yet another person.

Maybe OP is talking about how some people talk about the asura’s. Some might find that offensive other might find that funny. I would not be for not allowing that sort of things. But then the OP can report and block.

The general advice being given here.

the op identified at least one of the derogatory terms that people were saying.

True and as seen in this thread, some consider that offensive, other don’t. Exactly my point why you can’t focus to much on those things and should then (if you consider it offensive) ignore it and move on.

So what you are saying is that people shouldnt get mad if random people come by and insult them to their faces, because sticks and stones and all that. And everyone should judge there personal level of offense to anything anyone says, by every other person’s definition of what is cool.

So if some one calls your wife dirty wh* sl* every day she goes to the store, thats cool, because they have some people somewhere who arent offended by that type of thing. she should just learn to ignore them.

and im not saying censorship is cool, im saying its a totally different type of issue. Derogatory terms are people directly insulting you and trying to cause a negative reaction in you, or control/alter your behavior for their own amusment/biases. While its all good to say people should just grin and bear it, why should they have to?

No I say you might be mad about it. I just say you should automatically not expect somebody to get banned (or in your example getting thrown in jail) for it.

Besides if a person would say something like your example to you ingame I’m pretty sure he would get (at least a temporary) ban. But we don’t know exactly what has been said right. So the talk is more in the general sense of banning because they say something that is offensive to another person in general.

DonQuack.9025:

so many white people feeling offended for me.

I always laugh. Though I’d prefer you give me money instead of telling me what I should or shouldnt feel bad about..

Just had to say lol.

Tao.5096:

Devata.6589:

I find moderators closing perfectly good threads offensive.

What good threads have been closed?

I’ve yet to see mods going tw@t mode.

Lots and lots of good threads.

Last thread I considered interesting that was closed was this one https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Good-luck-everyone/page/2#post4536494

Also there where a few reactions added in an old thread a few days ago. When I checked later all those post where deleted to berry that thread again. While there was nothing wrong with those comments.

But that doesn’t really matter. I just said that as example to show that ‘offensive’ is personal. That is why you can’t expect somebody to get banned for saying something you consider offensive. Likely somebody else will be offensed because of that ban so what about that person? Kitten him?

phys.7689:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t really see this issue all that often in the game. Maybe it’s just that I don’t typically play during peak hours?

But I’ve done dungeons, I’ve done world bosses, etc, and the vast majority of the time what the OP is discussing isn’t an issue. Or sure, there are always a few lewd comments, but nothing like whats being discussed here. All one can really do is report it, that’s what the report feature is for. Beyond that, there’s a filter and an ignore function. Those are the options.

As for the N-word specifically, it just makes me roll my eyes. That is such a double standard. Its perfectly ok for a black man to say it, but its racist when a white man uses it. Cmon now. It’s either racist or its not, it cannot be both. Just further shows how terrible our society really is.

1)Its all fine for someone to say, insert your culture can hold their liquor, its not ok and fine for other people to say, hey that culture is a bunch stinking alcholics. If one ever came around my daughter i would just leave trail of liquor bottles leading to a spike pit.
2) just because 1% of the total population may or may not be ok being labeled a certain way, does not mean the population as a whole is ok with it. For example, your grandmother may many times say, women need to stay home and take care of their kids, and keep a clean house, and let the men earn money. That doesnt mean its ok for men to go around saying every woman should do that, and for them to tell people hey, i can say that, because lanfear Shadowflames mother always told me that, and shes a woman.

No it’s oke for them to say that because of free speech. But I don’t see how this is on topic.

I repeat it again for the last time. Because you disagree or find something offensive does not make it forbidden. So you can report, you can ignore and you should move on.

phys.7689:

Devata.6589:

emikochan.8504:

Devata/Lanfear stop being ignorant. It’s not a double standard.

Saying that is not a double standard (you referring to lanfear) now that’s what I consider racism. Because you agree that purely based on color one person is allowed to do / say something and another is not. That’s pretty mutch the definition of racism,

Anyway, this is going way to much off topic.

OP did say multiple things but most of the post was about people saying things he did not like (where rude according to him). Not saying what that was. So it’s everybody’s guess what those things where. But like I said before, what is offensive for one person might not be offensive for the other and denying it might also be offensive for yet another person.

Maybe OP is talking about how some people talk about the asura’s. Some might find that offensive other might find that funny. I would not be for not allowing that sort of things. But then the OP can report and block.

The general advice being given here.

the op identified at least one of the derogatory terms that people were saying.

True and as seen in this thread, some consider that offensive, other don’t. Exactly my point why you can’t focus to much on those things and should then (if you consider it offensive) ignore it and move on.

phys.7689:

Devata.6589:

phys.7689:

To the op, you reported it, thats all you can really do.

But I find it interesting peoples responses in this thread highlight that a lot of people have no real problem with this behavior.

perhaps the op is more right than one would think.

What behavior exactly. The OP does not say exactly what has been said, only that he finds it offensive.

I find moderators closing perfectly good threads offensive. Doesn’t mean they can’t do it. All I can then do it report them, getting the message it will be looked at by a moderator (likely himself) so that makes it even more offensive. But in the end there is not much more you can do then report and ingame block.

the op basically makes it clear, for people who are familiar with such things, he probably doesnt want to say exactly what it is, because that is giving it new life.
The crux of the OP is that the same people are saying the same things day after day, and seem to be immune to bans.

If you need to get an idea, just take any culture/nation and make sweeping derogatory generalizations about said culture/people. People will in generally find this highly offensive, because it isnt based on anything real about you. Imagine you start to play a game, and the first thing you hear is, kitten stupid dirty insert your culture

This is in no way analagous to people closing threads, that is censoring people. This is more analgous, to say random people in the street mocking and ridiculing you and your family, everyday on your way to work. Its design and purpose is to be offensive.

Oh yeah, to the op, interestingly enough, you keeping track of these players by friending them increases the chances that the megaserver will place you in the same maps as them, from what they said about the megaserver. That may be why it seems more of a common occurence around you.

I feel much more offense by other things (like censorship) then if people would attack my culture/nation and more of that stuff. So thats completely personal. That is also why imo you should not be to focus on if something is offensive because thats personal. What you are now already doing is favoring one type of offense above another just because thats how you feel.

Thats why I stay at my point. OP should just put the person on ignore and do a report. If it’s against the rules he might get a ban, else not. But the fact that the OP got offended by it (and some other people) does not automatically make it a bannable thing.

So report, ignore and go on with your life. (or go in discussion with those people)

emikochan.8504:

Devata/Lanfear stop being ignorant. It’s not a double standard.

Saying that is not a double standard (you referring to lanfear) now that’s what I consider racism. Because you agree that purely based on color one person is allowed to do / say something and another is not. That’s pretty mutch the definition of racism,

Anyway, this is going way to much off topic.

OP did say multiple things but most of the post was about people saying things he did not like (where rude according to him). Not saying what that was. So it’s everybody’s guess what those things where. But like I said before, what is offensive for one person might not be offensive for the other and denying it might also be offensive for yet another person.

Maybe OP is talking about how some people talk about the asura’s. Some might find that offensive other might find that funny. I would not be for not allowing that sort of things. But then the OP can report and block.

The general advice being given here.

emikochan.8504:

Devata stop being stupid.

Tell me what is stupid. Just saying I’m being stupid is kinda offensive. Of course I’m fine with that. We life in a free country. Well most of us do I think. But still it would be more wise if you said what you consider stupid. Because just saying somebody is being stupid is kinda stupid. (You see, I explain why)

phys.7689:

To the op, you reported it, thats all you can really do.

But I find it interesting peoples responses in this thread highlight that a lot of people have no real problem with this behavior.

perhaps the op is more right than one would think.

What behavior exactly. The OP does not say exactly what has been said, only that he finds it offensive.

I find moderators closing perfectly good threads offensive. Doesn’t mean they can’t do it. All I can then do it report them, getting the message it will be looked at by a moderator (likely himself) so that makes it even more offensive. But in the end there is not much more you can do then report and ingame block.

Schwarzseher.9873:

Haishao.6851:

No idea what’s an N Bomb but there’s a filter in game if you don’t like seeing certain words.

http://youtu.be/diVfMNnXc5A?t=24s
Its the one you cant say on TV as long you arent black.

Now thats racism.

Torsailr.8456:

The N Bomb, **gger, most people in America consider to be a very offensive racial slur. The filter isn’t really the point. Having the filter doesn’t excuse the type of behavior the OP is talking about.

It’s so offensive that they use it themselves. Still not getting that one tbh.

Also the OP talks about racism and that talk about offensive or rude chat what is something completely different.

Did let me think about http://granitegrok.com/Shout_Racist_305px.jpg

Besides what is offensive to you might not be offensive to somebody else while not allowing somebody to say that might be offensive to yet somebody else. Thats why ’it’s offensive’ should never ever be a reason for a ban.

If there are people who say thinks you do not like you block them.

tolunart.2095:

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

LOL the point is not that “big company can’t make mistakes,” it’s that it’s pretty foolish of you to claim that you know more about the game and its players than they do.

Know more about the game and it’s players? No I don’t say I know more about that.

Devata.6589:

I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think.

Yeah. The players in general (not I) know better what they want and the forums do at least give an idea of what that is.

Those people have been right with things where Anet was wrong (as I did show with examples) so why could they not be right again now?

If we where to believe you, because Anet is a big company with a lot of money and so can’t make mistakes. Only problem with that is that history has already proven you wrong.

Castrin.8972:

Tachenon.5270:

Shortly after launch, a friend and I were playing and discussing how at long last here was game developed by developers that ‘got it’ and weren’t just a bunch of big mean meanies out to be meaninglessly mean to their hapless, unsuspecting customers. That sentiment did not survive Orr, of course, or the series of joyous updates beginning in November of 2012. The trait system redesign in particular is still dancing quite merrily on the grave of that sentiment.

So, if hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on behavioral studies is what has led to the paving over of much of what made the early stuff, early on, so much ‘they get it, they really get it!’ fun, then alas! It would seem likely we can only expect more pavement in the future, with, perhaps, an informative sign along the roadside: Your gem store dollars at work.

Then again, such a sign would most likely be in violation of the ‘we will spill no beans before we spill the milk’ policy.

No battle plan survives first contact.

People constantly say in these “goodbye” threads that “hey great, comeback any time, it’s free after all” and yet so many recommend that GW2 should be a sub game and that would fix the “money grubbing Anet ‘thrice cursed’ gem store” issue.

Funny how that sword cuts both ways.

Things change in a game after 2 years, not all for the better. Yet I have found only one change that truly got my dander up. That’s not bad considering I wade through these forums regularly and see so many people up in arms about everything Anet does. I applaud them for their patience in this realm of hissing cats.

Do I love everything they have done? No. Do I miss things gone? Yes. Am I going to quit? Not likely. Adapt and continue to enjoy the game is my goal. It’s not that hard really.

Peace.

“So many recommend that GW2 should be a sub game.”
Haven’t seen many of those.

tolunart.2095:

LOL the point is not that “big company can’t make mistakes,” it’s that it’s pretty foolish of you to claim that you know more about the game and its players than they do.

Know more about the game and it’s players? No I don’t say I know more about that. But I do think I have a better idea where some problems are and where solutions are.

Back when Anet was still defending the temporary content I said it was bad, they eventually also concluded it was bad. That is an example of where I got proved right.

Even before launch I talked about how events where great but weren’t able to completely replace quest and imo thats one of the reasons why the thinks they now try to fix didn’t work in the first place. Like the better guidance they try to introduce. Thats one element that traditional quest do and events can’t really provide in that way.

Sometimes it’s possible that a company gets to focus on a one thing or one approach that they lose touch with the player-base. That all does not I know everything better but in general that many of there player-base knows those thinks better.

Castrin.8972:

Devata.6589:

You really believe that yourself?

You really think less people will leave because the hearths events are dumped down and weapon skills are not locked behind levels?

Well I don’t. I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think. (for those changed people dislike to much, there where also some good changed in the NPE)

Depends on what posts you read. Personally I think you are dismissing the positive (i.e. counter-point) posts that run counter to the story in your mind.

The fact that you use “locked behind” instead of “unlocked at” phrasing denotes that you feel that things have been limited instead of simply segmented differently than you’re used to.

Good example are weapon skills (which you reference) where now you get those automatically at a certain level, for all weapons usable in that class, instead of having to acquire each weapon and grind out the skills for them. Each method has it’s pos/neg points but the weapon leveling was unique to GW2. Anet found that this was a problem and streamline the process and made it more like other MMOs to lower the barrier for new players.

Simplicity helps people get into the game faster. Almost all other MMOs use a level based system to unlock skills. If you don’t believe Anet studied their own data to figure that out and make a determined change to get more players in the game longer,then I don’t think any kind of discussing, number evidence or comparisons, will change our mind.

The old one made more sense in a way of learning. And it was so fast you can’t consider that a grind.

The reason they did this is likely to have more stuff to work towards and that is indeed something that is missing in GW2. Now you know.. ‘the next skill unlocks in 3 levels, let’s go on’. Or at least thats the idea.

However I do feel that this is not the correct change to achieve that. That is fine for the other right spells but then again, you only have 10 spells so you can’t really use that very well as an unlocking system to work towards. Then there simply isn’t enough for you to do in the beginning. (only having 3 skills is kinda boring)

MMO’s have always used rewards as intensive and so that is something they need to work on. Just as exploring. In GW2 exploring has become a task of striping of a list with places. Many people don’t consider that fun. And most rewards are just a currency grind. There you have some of your problems.

So I see what they are trying to do, and I agree with them that thats where they are lacking but no I don’t think the NPE is the approach to solve that (well parts of it are).

Boneheart.3561:

tolunart.2095:

As an example, Anet took the time to research the behavior of their target market and found a significant number of potential players were turned away from the game by having too much thrown at them at once. These are players who are extremely unlikely to visit the forums and express their opinions about the game, because if they are confused by the game itself they would probably have trouble navigating the forums.

I can attest to this. On release, I exited game at about lv5 because there was so much I could do that it felt daunting. Figured I’d give myself a day to work it out in my head.

Two friends I invited during the first trial were stumped at lv5, they’re so used to being placed on rails that without the game telling them what to do they were lost. Only one of them stuck it out and effectively guilted me to help them through leveling to 80. She hates Tasks.

Yeah the guidance is a problem but as far as that go’s the only real changes they made was adding a pointer to give an idea where to go. That could have been much more.

Not sure what you mean with ‘She hates Tasks’ and why it’s relevant.

tolunart.2095:

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

As an example, Anet took the time to research the behavior of their target market and found a significant number of potential players were turned away from the game by having too much thrown at them at once. These are players who are extremely unlikely to visit the forums and express their opinions about the game, because if they are confused by the game itself they would probably have trouble navigating the forums.

Therefore, the forum activity does not reflect these players, Anet found them by examining different data. The forums represent, instead, a specific subset of their players who, while important to the overall health of the game, are not the players Anet chose to focus on for their changes to the starting zones.

“Listening to the forums” in this case, would have the opposite effect than what Anet desired – making the game more welcoming to new players.

You really believe that yourself?

You really think less people will leave because the hearths events are dumped down and weapon skills are not locked behind levels?

Well I don’t. I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think. (for those changed people dislike to much, there where also some good changed in the NPE)

Of course, Anet spends hundreds of thousands of dollars every year studying the behavior of their customers so they can draw the wrong conclusions and go bankrupt.

But you, being much smarter than anyone at the company, can browse the forums for a few hours and know that the situation is completely different than what Anet has learned about the behavior of their customers.

Obviously.

It sounds so nice “Anet spends hundreds of thousands of dollars every year studying the behavior of their customers so they can draw the wrong conclusions” but you do understand that if they did not make such mistakes the NPE patch would not have been necessary in the first place.

Yes I do think there are multiple things in the NPE patch that are very bad and I based that on what I see on the forum, from in the game, from personal experience and from common sense.

I also know changes that would help while I do also understand (but disagree) why they don’t.

The “oow it’s a big company they know it better then you do” argument does not do it for me. Have seen many mmo’s been released as P2P and then I said that was a bad move. All those games (with the exception of the most recent, but they still need to prove themselves) had to move away from the P2P model or even went bankrupt because of it. Companies with very ‘smart’ people that spend a lot of money to investigate what the market wants however eventually mainly focused on making the most money that all got proven wrong.

Just because something Is a big company with smart people who spend much money to make the correct decisions does not yet mean they indeed make the correct discussions. The whole financial crisis would not have happened if everything worked like you seem to think it worked.

tolunart.2095:

As an example, Anet took the time to research the behavior of their target market and found a significant number of potential players were turned away from the game by having too much thrown at them at once. These are players who are extremely unlikely to visit the forums and express their opinions about the game, because if they are confused by the game itself they would probably have trouble navigating the forums.

Therefore, the forum activity does not reflect these players, Anet found them by examining different data. The forums represent, instead, a specific subset of their players who, while important to the overall health of the game, are not the players Anet chose to focus on for their changes to the starting zones.

“Listening to the forums” in this case, would have the opposite effect than what Anet desired – making the game more welcoming to new players.

You really believe that yourself?

You really think less people will leave because the hearths events are dumped down and weapon skills are not locked behind levels?

Well I don’t. I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think. (for those changed people dislike to much, there where also some good changed in the NPE)

tolunart.2095:

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

CMM.6712:

Jaher Dal.9503:

Where is all this havoc people keep talking about? Does it happen while I’m not playing?

Starting to think these posters are paid shills hired by Blizzard come to this forum to create imaginary havoc.

It’s happened, but it’s rare. Mostly it’s players with inflated egos who think that buying a single copy of the game make them majority shareholders. Some are trolls who will agree with any posts that cause disruption and chaos on the forums. And it involves a misunderstanding of the situation, not realizing that the “silent majority” don’t give a kitten about what’s happening on the forums and we represent the .01% of players at either extreme end of the spectrum.

For the most part what goes on here is ignored by the company because it simply doesn’t reflect the entire player base, only the most extreme views, including the

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase

Because it is literally impossible to please everyone, the devs focus on those they can please and let the rest rant about how the game is dying while they continue to cash their paychecks.

“I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.” —Bill Cosby

Ah the “It’s only the vocal minority” argument again. I remember that from back in the “Temporary content is bad for GW2” threads. Have a look https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Too-Much-Temporary-Content-Can-Only-Harm-GW2/page/3#post2380400 Eventually Anet did seem to agree likely based on the numbers they had themselves.

It’s odd that you quote my post and then make this statement, because I have never posted in that thread. I think my link is more informative:

“While Unpleasable Fanbase has been a problem for any media with a sufficiently large fanbase (you simply cannot please all of the people all of the time), in the Internet Age it takes on a new dimension when even a small minority can make their opinions heard.”

The subject comes up a lot because it’s true. One person making a lot of noise can sound like a hundred. There have even been confirmed examples of someone creating multiple identities on a forum to support his side of an argument, or to give himself enemies to defeat and “turn to the light side,” thus proving himself correct.

It’s just an informative (as example) link to show that vocal minority claim (that you used with saying “For the most part what goes on here is ignored by the company because it simply doesn’t reflect the entire player base, only the most extreme views,”) is a very valid one and does not mean that sort of input should be ignored.

Like I said myself, sure it’s not a perfect representation and sure there are people like the one you mention but that still does not mean the vocal minority can be used to simply try and ignore every viewpoint you don’t agree with because in reality the forum does seem to be a representation of what is going on, and those people who did talk about people leaving did not make that up they did see people leave. Anet did as well. So thats why I liked it, as information / example.

Your link talks about how you should not try to please everybody what is a complete different question.

caveman.5840:

a cool mini will not keep most people interested in a game though.

yes it is a nice reward but a mini is a mini and that is no more than a skin that floats around your character XD

True. Add other skins and fun items to it. The game is build around cosmetics.

caveman.5840:

i think part of the problem is there is no noticable changes to GW2.

yes there is story up dates that come out …

but lets say u bought the game at launch and u took a break for over a year and came back … the olny noticable changes u would see is

1.a hand full of new traits
2.etom and dry top farm fest
3. some old pve maps that now look like they have been blown up
4.and a new set of armor/weapons u need to grind for

it would do the game good to see new classes and some advancements to wvw and pvp

some new dungeons

on a side note . i dont think etom ended up like anyone wanted.
they need to do something about the blobs

and pay some attention to the strategy that goes in to castle siege

It mainly needs stuff to works toward in the game and more fun things to do in the world that also help you connect to the world. For that last traditional quest would do a better task then the events do and the first can be done with more fun crafts and better rewards in the game.

Last week I was in another game some of my time and the first thing that came up in my mind to do was getting that cool mini I never got before. In this case it was a boring farm (not a grind for gold) but none the less I farmed the mobs that dropped it and had it after about 2 hours. (farmed 2 times 1 hour).

When doing something else I also did see another very cool mini so I checked how to get that and it turned out I had to do some quest for that so did those. Had fun doing the quest and ended up with the mini. Did some of the Halloween stuff and have my sights up for a mount I would like to get in the future (earnable in a raid dungeon). Also planning on exploring some new maps and with exploring I then do not mean running by a list of way-points, vista’s, hearts and PoI’s striping of a list. No I just go into the map and go to an NPC with a nice quest chain. I learn something about the npc’s and explore the world like I want to do it.

I also want to go on with the craft because there are some cool things to create with it.

So there is a lot of stuff that keeps you going. There is more you want to do then you can possibly do.

Now compare that to GW2. If I did see a cool mini that I would like to have it’s likely only available behind a gold grind (mainly because Anet makes money by selling that sort of stuff), just as the second and the third mini. Exploring maps is striping of a list of places you need to run by and events don’t tell you much about the npc’s living there or give you any connection to the world. The crafts, except for the newly added backpacks why would I want to do them? Only reason would be for the legendary and ascended stuff. So then I first need to grind my way to 400 / 500 to finally do what I might want to do.

They need to change this approach of gring grind gind with a more fun way to get really good / fun items and making you connect more with the world.

The LS is nice when you are really into the lore / story of the world but of most mmo’s I played I do not even know the story because I don’t care and also in GW2 I did not even complete the PS (I want to but can’t be bothered) so in that sense the LS does not add much for anybody who in not really into the story.

They need to come with new content but also need to approach these things. They do know something is wrong and try to fix that with the NPE but it looks like they fail to see what is wrong or they try to work around the problem without harming there current model what is close to impossible.

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

CMM.6712:

Jaher Dal.9503:

Where is all this havoc people keep talking about? Does it happen while I’m not playing?

Starting to think these posters are paid shills hired by Blizzard come to this forum to create imaginary havoc.

It’s happened, but it’s rare. Mostly it’s players with inflated egos who think that buying a single copy of the game make them majority shareholders. Some are trolls who will agree with any posts that cause disruption and chaos on the forums. And it involves a misunderstanding of the situation, not realizing that the “silent majority” don’t give a kitten about what’s happening on the forums and we represent the .01% of players at either extreme end of the spectrum.

For the most part what goes on here is ignored by the company because it simply doesn’t reflect the entire player base, only the most extreme views, including the

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase

Because it is literally impossible to please everyone, the devs focus on those they can please and let the rest rant about how the game is dying while they continue to cash their paychecks.

“I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.” —Bill Cosby

Ah the “It’s only the vocal minority” argument again. I remember that from back in the “Temporary content is bad for GW2” threads. Have a look https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Too-Much-Temporary-Content-Can-Only-Harm-GW2/page/3#post2380400 Eventually Anet did seem to agree likely based on the numbers they had themselves.

And it has been used in about any thread where people said something like they did see many people leave because the game was to boring / bad rewarding and so on. Then came the NPE patch witch Anet reason “Many people left even before hitting 80.”

You see the thing is, yeah the forum is only a part of the player-base and yes it will also not be a perfect representation but at the same time it does still give a pretty good picture of the complete player-base. That’s why in those previous examples it turned out that they where correct (or at least Anet did think they where correct based on there own numbers).

It just took Anet a little longer to come to that same conclusion and the solution was also not perfect but that might also be (especially with the NPE stuff) because they used there own solution in stead of listening to the forums. Maybe because they also did buy the “it’s only a vocal minority” excuse.

So anet looked at numbers and listened to the vocal minority on temp content. OK.

Now on to the NPE, where anet looked at the numbers, then apparently survived and got feedback from X amount of people on it. If anything, X would have to be a vocal minority too. And they based their changes on said vocal minority. But the forums vocal minority threw a fit and things had to be modified. Did the new npe work? Who knows. If it didn’t, anet takes the blame. But ask yourself this, if they listened to the forums, and implemented what they would have suggested and it still failed, do you believe that the forum people would take the blame? And believe it or not, there was something added to the game, was tested by players and had player feedback that was ready to be listened to. And we got the karma pve train in EotM. So listening to the forums isn’t always correct.

So, in essence, anet can look at numbers and talk to a vocal minority, but when forum posters are considered a vocal minority, and that vocal minority has different factions of vocal minorities wanting something different or some goal, who does anet listen to so as to not kitten off someone else?

The answer is: it doesn’t matter, someone will be mad. Anet can’t win with whatever they do to the game, someone will come to the forums and complain.

True there will always be people who dislike a change. That was however not the point of what I was saying.

What I was saying is that the “it’s only a vocal minority” excuse to try and dismiss any thread they don’t agree on is simply not a valid one because as we have seen in the past the forum does in fact give an idea of what is going on. Not a perfect one but none the less an idea good enough to not dismiss it.

About the NPE changes, haven’t seen many (if any) people ask to lock skills behind levels and make easy hearths even more easy. I did see many other suggestions that have not been done (likely because it would mess up there model).

And the EotM was also pretty much designed when people where pulled in and personally I would not know how to improve that because of the way it is designed.

tolunart.2095:

CMM.6712:

Jaher Dal.9503:

Where is all this havoc people keep talking about? Does it happen while I’m not playing?

Starting to think these posters are paid shills hired by Blizzard come to this forum to create imaginary havoc.

It’s happened, but it’s rare. Mostly it’s players with inflated egos who think that buying a single copy of the game make them majority shareholders. Some are trolls who will agree with any posts that cause disruption and chaos on the forums. And it involves a misunderstanding of the situation, not realizing that the “silent majority” don’t give a kitten about what’s happening on the forums and we represent the .01% of players at either extreme end of the spectrum.

For the most part what goes on here is ignored by the company because it simply doesn’t reflect the entire player base, only the most extreme views, including the

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase

Because it is literally impossible to please everyone, the devs focus on those they can please and let the rest rant about how the game is dying while they continue to cash their paychecks.

“I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.” —Bill Cosby

Ah the “It’s only the vocal minority” argument again. I remember that from back in the “Temporary content is bad for GW2” threads. Have a look https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Too-Much-Temporary-Content-Can-Only-Harm-GW2/page/3#post2380400 Eventually Anet did seem to agree likely based on the numbers they had themselves.

And it has been used in about any thread where people said something like they did see many people leave because the game was to boring / bad rewarding and so on. Then came the NPE patch witch Anet reason “Many people left even before hitting 80.”

You see the thing is, yeah the forum is only a part of the player-base and yes it will also not be a perfect representation but at the same time it does still give a pretty good picture of the complete player-base. That’s why in those previous examples it turned out that they where correct (or at least Anet did think they where correct based on there own numbers).

It just took Anet a little longer to come to that same conclusion and the solution was also not perfect but that might also be (especially with the NPE stuff) because they used there own solution in stead of listening to the forums. Maybe because they also did buy the “it’s only a vocal minority” excuse.

To the “Give me your stuff” people.
Woow you must really dislike the game if you do not want to play for the stuff yourself.

Djinn.9245:

Second, anyone who thinks that just because the majority of people in one thread say something that equals the majority of players in the game is mistaken. It is common knowledge among all MMOs that only a very small percentage of all MMO players participate in the forums.

The fact that a minority is on the forums does not mean they do not represent a bigger group.

This excuse has been used over and over again. Go back time to a thread like this one https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Too-Much-Temporary-Content-Can-Only-Harm-GW2/page/3#post2380400 and what do we see. A person talking about that we don’t know how many people disliked it bla bla. Well looks like also Anet had to conclude many people disliked that.

Go to many of the threads over the last two years where people talked about how many people left because some elements in the game that where boring. Also then you would see the same argument saying nobody knows if many people left but what turned out after Anet came with the NPE patch? They did so because many people did indeed leave the game even before reaching level 80.

No there is likely not a majority of players that dislike the removal in general but we can make an educated guess based on the forum that more people dislike the fact that it’s gone then people who disliked the animation in dialogs (making is a bad removal) without having the exact number.

Hamfast.8719:

Can’t you just “flip a switch” and reactivate the animations until a fix is ready? I don’t care if this “WoodenPotatoes” guy has his own webshow that makes his viewpoint pretty visible. That doesn’t make his viewpoint right. Is this game trying to make him happy, or the majority of the players? Don’t fix what ain’t broken.

I think Anet does listen to him a lot. I have seen more changes that at least looked to be based on things he said. Even the many things the upcoming LS seems to be doing. (Like brining back Trahearne. He stated many times he would like that while I know there have been also many complains about Trahearne maybe for the wrong reasons idk.)

Now don’t get me wrong, I like his video’s. They are interesting but he is only one type of player and judged by his video’s he is mainly into the story element of the game representing that part of the playerbase. (Also he does not mind mindless grinding what many people dislike.)

While a big part of the player-base is not so much into the story. Personally I played multiple MMO’s before this and I don’t even know what the main story was in those games (and I did not care / never missed it), I did know some NPC story’s (what I am missing here) from quests but that was about it.

So if they use him as a big guidance for there changes I think that is a mistake. But of course I don’t know if that’s really the case.

Niteraven.1372:

DarkOcean.8746:

I found the origin thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Default-Character-Animations-Spoil-It-All

It’s so annoying that a handful of people got these removed for everyone else. If they’d removed them and then fixed them immediately, sure. But they removed them and now there’s no ETA on when they’ll be back in? I don’t understand why this was a high enough priority to remove or tamper with in the first place.

Simply because the whiner always wins. That is why I have to be the whiner now. If these “individuals” are so concerned with immersion, perhaps they should crawl through the monitor and become a part of gw2. Twenty bucks says some of them have tried.

I do think immersion is important in a game, however the animations also halp with immersion outside of LS dialogs and considering you are more in that situation then you are is LS dialogs this is more immersion breaking.

I do understand why they want to change it. There are many of these small things that should be changed and when they all got changed it would improve the game much more (like prevent spawning of mobs near you unless really necessary) but then implement it when it’s completely done, not remove it and then make a task to repair it at some point in the future.

Nifaea.9216:

How about bringing the animations back until the fix is ready and on release adding something to the options menu along the lines of:

[ ] Disable Idle Animations During Cinematics

That would have made much more sense indeed.

And don’t forget about the walking animation.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Devata.6589:

Gaile Gray.6029:

To round out this discussion:

I believe that Djinn hit the nail on the head: Disabling the animations globally took far less time than re-implementing them individually will require.

To answer Kolompi’s question (if I’m understanding it properly), designing, testing, and implementing new animations takes a long time. It was judged more prudent to disable the existing animations (and work on having them function selectively) than to reposition team members into the process of redesigning them.

And again, the animations will be back in the future.

“It was judged more prudent to disable the existing animations” because in some dialogs it was strange. Looks like a bad judgment to me.

Maybe rephrase that as strongly disagreeing with that judgment. Some people get really annoyed by such things; some people don’t. Whatever decision ANet made was going to be unsatisfying for a ton of folks and merely the lesser of evils for others. Better that there hadn’t been any bug, of course, but once there was one, ANet was left with choosing between really annoying and terribly annoying; I don’t see that they could have done much better than what they have done: compromise.

Well for the reason they removed it I did only see one complain and that was from Wooden Patatoes. About the removal of the animations this is the second thread that is also staying on the first page for a long time.

So it looks like more people dislike the fact that the animation is gone then that the animation was there during some LS dialogs.

Another way to look at it (what I did try to make clear in that sentence with ‘some dialogs’). How much of the time you spend in LS dialogs and how long in normal situations where you would see the animation? I think it’s fair to see that by far most people with be much much much much more often in normal situations where they would see those animations then that they are is LS dialogs.

So simply based on those two factors I consider it a bad judgment.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

The only downside I find is that i have so much to do in Tyria, I struggle to find time for other games… And now.. Raids? But I just got into the fractal groove!

“Protecting New Tyria since August 24th, 2012.”

I wonder if people who call out the game for lack of content are really saying “content where I feel that I am making enough gold, per hour.”

No they are talking about content that is not about making gold.