Guild Wars 2

Distaste.4801:

Vayne.8563:

Let’s also bear in mind that Anet actually brought up the manifesto, which I dissected line by line in so many posts I won’t repeat it here. But there’s no possible way to look at it, using the manifesto’s own words, to make anyone think that they mean any definition of grind but the standard one.

We don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2 is a line in a paragraph about combat. Not a paragraph about gear or farming or gaining gold. Grind, as in killing stuff to gain levels. What it means to most old timers.

If you can find something in the manifesto which supports your definition, I’d love to hear it. Because in 3 years since it’s been out, no one has provided anything but that single out of context line, we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2. But everything around it defines it as something other than people are saying.

You can win any argument if you ignore the evidence.

Grind is and always has meant doing something repetitively to achieve some goal. It is synonymous with farming. It has never been directly tied to leveling only. You can certainly level grind, you can also farm experience. You can faction grind or you can farm faction. You can grind mobs for loot or you can farm mobs for loot. It’s all the same. As far back as SWG people were grinding for all sorts of things. Mission grinding for cash, experience grinding for leveling, experience grinding for jedi unlocks, merc/geonosian grinding for cubes/adhesive, or just faction grinding to swap sides or buy faction loot. So unless ArenaNet missed a decade of grind being used in a ton of different ways, your argument doesn’t hold water.

You also realize that when he says combat he is talking about anything that involves combat, which ranges from quests to farming mobs. It is exactly why they go on about what makes GW2 events different. That is why he says

“In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff”

The problem is that that is exactly what you do in GW2. Want the BIS gear? Grind. Want a certain WvW rank unlock? Grind. Achievement point unlocks? Grind. Awesome looking skins? Grind. BIS runes/sigils? Grind. Legendaries? Grind. Crafting? Grind. Even if by some stretch of the imagination we are talking purely combat, that’s a grind too! GW2 has an incredibly shallow grindy combat system, I was hoping they would go the TCOS route but they decided to stick with mediocrity. Honestly the “fun stuff” is incredibly few and far between, which is why the game is grindy. Instead of introducing fun content they slap in grind content. Any fun content they do add is usually temporary, which ultimately hurt the game.

They could indeed learn some things from TCOS, also the quest. Anet seems to think quest need to be boring but TCOS had some great ones. There no stats on gear would also fit into GW’s philosophy I think. I usually use WoW as comparison as most people know WoW and only a few know TCOS but yes they could learn something from TCOS.

phys.7689:

like i said, this is just marketing speak. The reality is guild wars is just as grindy as any other game when it comes to best in slot, and way more grindy when it comes to cosmetics.

Thats ok, it really doesnt matter.
most of the people discussing here, have accepted the grind, or they ignore it. Also If guild wars does what they say they want to do, and makes more challenging content, you best believe people will want you in whatever is the best gear. Regardless of whether its possible to win, if it makes it less likely, they will want you in gear, and if it fails they will blame the people with low gear.

i know this will happen because it already happens in GW2.

and you will grind to get that gear, or those masteries, so you can access those extra areas.

The do hope they realize the game was actually grindy, because if whoever picks their numbers for things keep picking the numbers, you can look forward to ascended, halloween II, mistfire wolf mini, WvW achievement like numbers for your new progression.

But is it oke? How many people did leave because of it? They might come back with HoT but if it’s still the same they will leave again and won’t come back for the 2th expansion.

And like you say yourself “The reality is guild wars is just as grindy as any other game when it comes to best in slot, and way more grindy when it comes to cosmetics.”. That cosmetics part is what GW2 focusses on and especially that part is so extremely grindy. so in a way the playerbase Anet aims for it then scares away with the grind.

Yes I did find other stuff to do, I ignore it but that does not mean I like it or I would like the option to hunt down those cosmetics without grind as the only real option. Resulting in me complaining here about it or me talking about the cash-shop focus in many threads (because I see that as the main reason for this grind).

Would it not be better for the game if the grind itself was not there or at least optional.. also for those optional cosmetics items. Would it not be better if hunting down those things was possible with interesting or challenging, fun content. Liadra being an example of a challenging option to earn them, the pirate shoulders being an example of a fun (and somewhat challenging) way to get them. Would that not be much better for this game?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

I had the same with a special weapon I wanted. I needed charged lodestones for them but the problem is there is no really viable way to get charged lodestones. And with not viable I do not mean easy! Best way to get them is.. yeah you guessed that right, grind gold and buy them.

Always the easiest way to acquire things, when they can be acquired that way, is to simply apply Gold to the problem and watch the barriers fall away. It was true in GW1, true here, and it was true back in my EQ days.

If you can apply money, there is a certain value where you can indeed purchase whatever your heart desires, should it be purchasable that way.

It’s true that it’s always a way (if it’s tradable), but if items are obtainable in a viable way in game it usually is not the easiest way. Only if getting it in the open world is very easy.

The big problem here is that it is not really viable to earn it in the game, or not at all possible for the cash-shop items. The option (in a viable way) just does not exist. So your only real option is the gold grind for these sorts of things.

Ronin.7381:

People, players and developers alike, need to understand that grinding is just a natural element in MMOs. It’s how you convey progression and people don’t want to do something if they feel they aren’t rewarded well enough. That being said, I’d agree that the rewards themselves need to be looked at for a third time, dungeons need to be tweaked if necessary.

Saying “No grind” is like saying you shouldn’t breathe. It’s just the way these games are made, the trick is trying to find a way to make grinding fun.

I think ‘no grind’ is possible, no farming might be harder. The type of grind I am talking about you don’t have in multiple other games so seems not to be a requirement.

Carighan.6758:

Devata.6589:

Could you not use this argument to try and disprove any form of grind in any game?

Not at all.
Especially not the grind ANet was talking about in the manifesto.

Compare especially grinding raids to gear up players for different fights in different succeeding raids (since you had different requirements) and grinding to level up. On the other hand, it’s actually difficult to not get mats for your goals in GW2, since the game keeps throwing stuff at you and has about everything freely tradeable.

“Compare especially grinding raids to gear up players for different fights in different succeeding raids” and then I use that excuse… here is comes: But you should not grind those raids to get the gear. You should just play the content (raids) for fun and while doing so you will get the gear and can do those different fight. You will also level up along the way.

There you see, I used that same excuse for your example of grind.

Sure, you get mats for the items you need, just not nearly enough to get all those items you want. Oow and let me clarify that’s also not what I would like (getting all the gold / mats I need along the way) as that would be similar to handing out the items for free. No, I want them to be rewarded for specific interesting content. So I can directly work towards them and have fun on my road to getting them.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

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As I said, not once, but many times across many threads, if a word has multiple definitions, it’s up to people to define what they mean by it. Anet did that, not once, but many times.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue.

Let me be lear about two things.

I did hear Anet say they wanted a grind free game. I did not hear them say,’ we want a grind free game but this is what we see as grind and all other other forms of grind don’t count for us as grind so can and will be in the game’.

Second, the fact that they said it would be grind free is nice to refer to in this discussion and makes it even more important but not in any way is it required for the complaint. There are other grindy games people complain about the grind while the company never said it would have no grind. Are they then not allowed to complain about it? Remember the forums back during season 1 when people complained about temporary content. Anet never stated they would not have temporary content. So that statement might make it even more important but it’s not like if it’s required for people to complain about something they dislike in a game.

People dislike this grind and so they complain about it. The defense against that in general in this forum seems to be that it does not fits in there (person defending) definition of a grindy game (while agreeing the grind people complain about does indeed exist) or your defense is that Anet did not specifically mention this grind but was (according to you?) talking about another type of grind. Both seem irrelevant to the complaint. It does not disproof the complaint, it does not devaluate the complaint, it does not make the complaint go away.

Let’s also bear in mind that Anet actually brought up the manifesto, which I dissected line by line in so many posts I won’t repeat it here. But there’s no possible way to look at it, using the manifesto’s own words, to make anyone think that they mean any definition of grind but the standard one.

We don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2 is a line in a paragraph about combat. Not a paragraph about gear or farming or gaining gold. Grind, as in killing stuff to gain levels. What it means to most old timers.

If you can find something in the manifesto which supports your definition, I’d love to hear it. Because in 3 years since it’s been out, no one has provided anything but that single out of context line, we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2. But everything around it defines it as something other than people are saying.

You can win any argument if you ignore the evidence.

And ‘the standard’ one is the one you refer to as being the most common used according to wiki? That same wiki page that also talks about grinding for items, but would then not be ‘the standard’ definition of grind. There are many forms of grind and they are all grind. One of them is not more ‘grind’ then the other is. A ‘no grind philosophy’ means no grind one would think. No grinding for levels is one element but not the only one else it would have been a ‘no grind for levels philosophy’ I would think.

In addition I also said it’s not really relevant if Anet specifically would have said it, you ignored that part of my comment. If people find it grindy they have to right to feel that way and talk about it. Even if Anet would not have talked about no grind at all.

In that way I don’t understand the people in this thread so much defending GW2 because the stuff they like to do is not grindy. They just want to defend the game and don’t want to hear any negative aspects about it? Or they don’t want other people to not also have the grind free game-play they are experiencing themselves? Or they want people (who find the game grindy) to leave the game?

Is anybody here ignoring all the grinding going on in GW2. Champ trains have never existed, that’s a mind spin? And it’s also not true that to get many specific things those grinds like the champ trains where the only viable option? Is anybody here really trying to dismiss that grind? I don’t think so, but what people are doing is making up excuses why these grinds would not be a problem.. well not for them, but it is for some other people and they have the right to talk about it. Don’t act as if those people have no right for disliking that grind.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Mike O"Brien; GW2 Design Manifesto Blog

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

Note: “Force you onto a grinding treadmill” This is a clear reference to gearing up for endgame and the repetitive endgame gear treadmill where the gear is required for content completion.

Is it Fun? Colin Johanson on how ArenaNet Measures Success

Fun impacts loot collection: The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Seems to me that two of the most prominent pieces of pre-launch advertising refer to lack of gear treadmills. Also note: “… so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so…”

Grind is in the experience of the player. Some people like long-term goals. That was the rationale behind Ascended, and the rationale given by many of those who defended the inclusion of Ascended. Since there has only been the one tier added, it’s a little soon to call it a gear treadmill. The point, though, is that Legendary Weapons and other cosmetic items require a lot of collecting are aimed at a demographic that likes involved, long-term goals. However, there are people who are not in that demographic , but who want those items. Those people are going to experience grind because they choose to go after something not aimed at them.

So, does GW2 have short and intermediate-range goals for players to shoot at? There are plenty, but after 2+ years, many players will have reached the less-involved goals. That’s the real issue here. Easily achieved goals meet the needs of those who want goals but don’t like to pursue something long term. However, catering to those players can involve high resource use because it takes almost as much effort to produce a short-time pursuit as a long-time pursuit, but it holds player attention for a much shorter time.

“so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so” so he is talking about prestigious from a cosmetic perspective. Basically he seems to be talking about people like me. Because that is what I like to so.. chase those prestigious items (not only gear). But when I would want to do that in GW2 it’s not so much chasing them down but it would be grind, grind and grind some more. That is takes a long time, that it’s long-term is no problem for me, I might even like it. But if it’s grind, grind, grind and grind some more (gold) that’s where the fun stops.

I had the same with a special weapon I wanted. I needed charged lodestones for them but the problem is there is no really viable way to get charged lodestones. And with not viable I do not mean easy! Best way to get them is.. yeah you guessed that right, grind gold and buy them.

At one point I did try the farm option but after 1 hours of killing mobs I had zero of them drops. Needing 250 is then not really viable. At some point even multiple guild-members send me charged lodestones and cores they happen to get but even till this day I am not close to the 250 I need. There is only one viable way to get them.. grinding gold. But that I am not going to do.

Aenesthesia.1697:

masterJP.5048:

No grinding to have BIS gear , Grinding for Skins (Which is Legendaries and Dungeon rewards) is how they keep you busy and is not required , Which is why they are grindy. Ascended give a small stat increase so I suppose that can be considered grindy. But not that much a increase

No game requires you to grind. You dont like raiding? Dont do it, you wont need the gear anyway. You like raiding? Do it, you will suck at first but you will get your drops from raiding and keep up with the content you are playing.

True that is what I said about grind always being optional. that however does not mean there is grind, and the ‘do what you like’ can mean you will need to grind. You like to collect toys and skins the only option in this game seems to be grind. But it’s indeed optional, I like to hunt down those type of items and it’s what I do in other games but not in GW2 (what seems very strange as this game is based around cosmetics while those others aren’t) but it also means content I like does not exist in this game… without grind.

So that is why people complain about grind. But indeed it is optional. I did do WvW and guild-stuff instead. Other people might have find other alternatives or simply stopped playing the game. Doesn’t mean the grind complain isn’t true.

Azhure.1857:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Pockets.3201:

The vast majority of the Silverwastes, the most recent area they gave us to keep us busy, is grind.

Grind events to get badges to get extractors to grind breach/vinewrath bosses for parts/carapace boxes for the collections.

Sure, its optional, but this is the content they want us to do.

Technically, the whole game is grind if you look at it that way. Grind events to get the stuff or the experience, or the achievements. Grind WvW for its stuff. Grind dungeons for their stuff. Grind anything you want for gold so you can buy more stuff you don’t need.

. . . honestly, it’s thankfully less of a grind than real life is.

Isn’t that the truth.

Nothing that you “grind” for in this game is required in order to play the game. Not even the vast majority of the endgame. As others have already stated — too many of you are forcing it upon yourselves. Not ArenaNet. Just yourselves. But you don’t want to hear that…. so I’m pretty much wasting my time right now.

orrrr. They are not forcing it upon themselves but if they would do the content they like (like hunting down items) but the only option is grinding for it. So instead of forcing it upon themselves they leave a complain about it on the forum and leave this content as not exciting in GW2.. or other might just leave the game because of it.

McWolfy.5924:

Grind: the skill is not enough, you must to farm specific contents to be able to play something else.
For example this is why wvw not grindy (mostly). You play wvw and buy your stuff at the npc for badges and some golds. Btw we must to buy jewels if pvt is not good and sigils/runes not cheap

Don’t you think WvW is less grindy because you get the badgest faster or more then you need them (while playing WvW) for the items you want, while PvE is considered by many more grindy because you get the gold less then you need if for the items you want.

Now I do not say PvE should reward more gold. Items should simple be viable to get ingame without gold. You want an item you have the option to grind gold but in addition you can also do a dungeon that rewards it. As an example. So if you like to hunt down items you can do that without the grind there is now.

Gnat.9405:

An important fact being missed here is that ascended is not a grind at all unless you want instant gratification. Playing the game as normal gets you all the materials you’ll need. If you beat down the door to get to the end as soon as possible, yes, you’ll have to go out of your way to achieve that method. The way to accelerate the process is to, as those define it, grind. You have an option to blast through content but when you get bored because you finished faster based on a method you CHOSE, don’t go and tailor your definition of grindy to your argument because it’s convenient. It’s grindt because you grinded. Don’t want to? Go enjoy the game and get the items at a slower, normal pace.

Players are quick to define any activity they do as grind. “Oh, I grinded world bosses.” “I grinded dungeons.” I grinded WvW". No, you played the game. If you didn’t enjoy yourself then instead of coming here to complain, evaluate why you’re playing the game in the first place.

Could you not use this argument to try and disprove any form of grind in any game? Some people were talking here about how grindy Anarchy Online is. I could then also come and say.. well you should not have been killing those mobs to get the items and the xp, no you should have killed them for fun and then eventually you get the xp and the gear. So no grind.

The question however is if a normal pace of ‘doing stuff for fun’ would then indeed reward those things in at the same rate they are available. If we would look at it from that perspective.

People get to a point where they want to collect items but them just playing the game did not reward the money they need to buy them and the items are for example only available for gold (from a game perspective) so they go do the world bosses over and over again to earn the gold to then buy those items.. that means they are grinding the world bosses.
IF they want to go for those items at that point grind is mandatory! There is no option of directly working towards getting those items. Up until HoT there is no real viable way to get a precursor, You can’t do a quest that rewards the flying carpet (as an example), you can’t farm a dungeon for the flying broom and the same might be true for ascended stuff. They get at a point where they might like to collect those things and the only option is grinding.. Playing the game and having fun for them at that point is hunting these items down. But that is then a grind.

Obtena.7952:

I guess you’re experience is simply too limited to have sufficient perspective to speak on the topic then. You are aware that MMO’s have been around since mid 90’s? If you simply compare GW2 to what exists right now, then you don’t have a very relevant baseline. Without that history, then it’s clear why people don’t understand Anet’s statement and fluff it off.

Play a game where it takes 1000’s of hours to max out a character, then come back here and realize how very ridiculous the complaints are. Hell, people can BUY most of the stuff in this game with RL money. How much more carebear do you want it?

Lol so if a car company says they sell the fastest car it does not matter if it in fact is the faster car as long as compared to some point in history it is the fastest car. I am sorry so say that if anything the 90’s games are not relevant, then only the current games are. But still then, if people find it grindy they find it grindy. That is not the same as ‘I find it grindy compaired to game X’.

Even if you would do that it all depends with what type of game-play. Some people say GW2 is not grindy compared to GW2 but that’s likely because there preferred game-play is getting BiS gear. For me GW2 is very grindy compared to WoW because my preferred game-play is going for most fun / best looking items and I do not care for BiS gear. And no it’s not optional, in fact it’s not optional in both games. I did not get BiS gear in WoW and was fine playing the game, I also don’t get most of the fun or best looking items in GW2 and can still do other things of the game. That however does not mean the grind is not there if you would like to do that.

Obtena.7952:

Nothing .. those are content meant for many teams, not a single team. The content you mentioned isn’t balanced around gear, it’s balanced around co-operation and player volume; those are RAID content, not instanced (re. dungeon/fractals) content.

Point still stands … in the industry, GW2 is not grindy by traditional definitions. Maybe in 10 years it might be considered so, but for now, only the most noob players would QQ about grindy GW2.

If you have no real arguments just start naming people you disagree with ‘Noobs’.

Not to mention that those ‘noobs’ are asking for something more interesting than the grind there is now. The defenders seem to like the brainless grind (or are not interested in the collecting (also mention as one of the important things for GW2 in the presentation!) those thing). So now wanting challenging content makes you a noob? But being fine with brainless grinding makes you a pro?

Makes sense!

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Having a hard time translating this.

Yeah, we know.

To proper English I left that part out initially because I did not want to come over rude towards you. Anyway, nice that of the comment this is all you had something to say about.

Not much left to say, there is no honest discussion to be had. I’ve attempted to clarify this to you at least three times. And that’s just me.

Other people are saying the same thing. You double down and repeat your mantra of all things are grind and therefore GW2 is grind.

By saying everything is optional and therefore qualifies as a grind to support your argument, it follows that everything is considered a grind.

You said this. Not me.

Following this logic, I suppose you’re correct in the same way I’m related to the sun. We’re the exact same thing, the sun and I. We’re both made out of atoms after all.

Screw the relevant details, right?

You’re using relativism logic and stretching yourself like spaghetti to make an argument for grind when there isn’t any in any honest sense compared to other games in the same genre. GW2 stands apart in this regard.

I can’t help you understand this concept if you’re not getting me after three posts. Can’t say I didn’t try. Maybe it’s the language barrier?

Oow but it’s completely clear what you and some other people are saying. The grind is there but it’s not the grind you mind much, it’s ‘optional’ for you because it does not lock out content (you like to do). That is nice, but that does not take away the grind that other people complain about or even left the game for. And so it does not remove the complaint. It only shows it’s not a problem for you what is completely irrelevant for the people who do mind that grind.

“You double down and repeat your mantra of all things are grind” that is something you made up and keep repeating. Not once I said that. I said all things are optional and so the ‘this does not count as grind because it’s not mandatory’ excuse is nonsense, but I did not say everything is a grind.

“By saying everything is optional and therefore qualifies as a grind to support your argument, it follows that everything is considered a grind.”
Yeah this conclusion of you makes no sense what so ever. Besides, I did say everything is optional, I did not say that makes everything grind. I only said that means all grind is grind and not like you say only the grind you consider required is grind.
So in short. Me: grind = grind. You grind = sometimes counts as grind but other times it does not.

“You said this. Not me.” Pretty sure you said it “it follows that everything is considered a grind.” You make this very illogical conclusion. I did say everything is optional but you came that that illogical conclusion based on that.

“You’re using relativism logic” Wait, it was your logical conclusion remember. I said everything is optional on what you logically (uhum) concluded I said everything was grind.

“ grind when there isn’t any in any honest sense compared to other games in the same genre.” What other games? Again it seems you are referring to the grind you personally have a problem with. There is not so much of the grind you dislike in this game as there is in some of those other games you refer to. That is great for you, why don’t you want this to be the case for all GW2 players?

“Maybe it’s the language barrier?” That might be it. But that’s oke, I won’t judge you on that.

Davey.7029:

Devata.6589:

Davey.7029:

If you call Guild Wars 2 grindy, then you really haven’t played any other MMORPG.

That is an assumption I know for a fact is wrong as I do consider GW2 grindy and did play multiple other mmo’s.

How? Plenty of MMO’s require you to stay in the same zone and grind for days until you can move to the next one, and then grind even more.

In many MMO’s the max level isn’t even achievable to the average player, and in the ones where it is possible to reach the cap, you grind for gear for about 6 months until the next content update is released and your gear is then becomes obsolete.

And let’s not talk about MMO’s where you actually have to reach the level cap until you can participate in any form of PvP. In Guild Wars 2 you can start doing PvP right from the start.

That’s one of the reasons of why people keep coming back to this game, because other MMO’s feel so old and outdated.

“you grind for gear for about 6 months until the next content update” that is a form of grind people say is in WoW. Now I don’t feel the need to reach level cap itself as a goal, I might need it to get the items I want but usually I leveled up along the way. I also never feel the need for the best gear (That according to some is required). So I don’t feel the grind in those games. Does that mean the people complaining about that grind are wrong?, does it mean there is no grind in those game? Of course not, it just means it does not affect me. In this game it’s just the other way around. The type of grind you talk about might not be so much here but the other type is here. The thing is, this game is more based about cosmetics then getting best gear so if anything this type of grind you don’t care about might be even more of a problem for this game then for games build around getting best gear.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

This is from Wikipedia:

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.¹² *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage ³ in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *

Wouldn’t the rest of the quote be relevant as well?

“Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.”

I don’t think GW2 has terrible grind. I just can’t believe how grindy ascended gear is, which just so happens to be the best gear in the game, but that could possibly be cancelled out because there is no gear treadmill.

Nope the rest of the quote isn’t relevant. That is to say what I’ve said is providing THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

Everything Anet has said from beginning to end, since the time of the manifesto supports the definition of THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

The other definitions might or might not apply.

But if there is a MOST COMMON USEAGE, and that useage is supported by context, continually, then people who are not using the MOST COMMON USEAGE are being willfully ignorant.

If I make a statement and define what I mean and someone comes along and says this sentence can also mean this and this, it’s not relevant at all to my statement.

Even if it was true that was ‘the most common usages’ it does not mean the other usages suddenly do not count as grind anymore. So if people talk about grind they all count equally (that includes Anet talking about grind!). And that paragraph where you quoted from even ends with the sentence [Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.] so the article itself refers to grind for getting additional items. Exactly what is going on here.

Besides you did not make a statement and defined what you meant. You simply quoted a definition (well part of it) from wiki seemingly to proof that, that was the definition of grind. It was not like you said.. I do not find it grindy because for me grindy means this and it does not fit into this. If you did then we might be able to agree it did not fit into your definition what is btw completely irrelevant for the people who consider it grindy.

It seems like everybody here agrees there is grind in GW2 only some want to ignore it because that grind does not count according to them. And I can understand that that grind does not effect there personal game-play but that does not mean it does not count for other people.

As I said, not once, but many times across many threads, if a word has multiple definitions, it’s up to people to define what they mean by it. Anet did that, not once, but many times.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue.

Let me be lear about two things.

I did hear Anet say they wanted a grind free game. I did not hear them say,’ we want a grind free game but this is what we see as grind and all other other forms of grind don’t count for us as grind so can and will be in the game’.

Second, the fact that they said it would be grind free is nice to refer to in this discussion and makes it even more important but not in any way is it required for the complaint. There are other grindy games people complain about the grind while the company never said it would have no grind. Are they then not allowed to complain about it? Remember the forums back during season 1 when people complained about temporary content. Anet never stated they would not have temporary content. So that statement might make it even more important but it’s not like if it’s required for people to complain about something they dislike in a game.

People dislike this grind and so they complain about it. The defense against that in general in this forum seems to be that it does not fits in there (person defending) definition of a grindy game (while agreeing the grind people complain about does indeed exist) or your defense is that Anet did not specifically mention this grind but was (according to you?) talking about another type of grind. Both seem irrelevant to the complaint. It does not disproof the complaint, it does not devaluate the complaint, it does not make the complaint go away.

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Having a hard time translating this.

Yeah, we know.

To proper English I left that part out initially because I did not want to come over rude towards you. Anyway, nice that of the comment this is all you had something to say about.

nGumball.1283:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

Grind is always in the eye of the beholder. I define it as stuff I don’t like to do but have to to get X. But I don’t consider it grinding if you are simply trying to accumulate gold to by gems because you think everything should be “free”. Those people are just being cheap.

I did not see anybody say everything should be free. Can you quote them? I for example have been asking for expansion for a long time. I would be fine having to had buy an expansion every year and paying for it that way.

No problem with that, no problem with paying for a game. But I have a problem with grind and I do like to have the end-game of collecting those items without the gold-grind.

Anyway, interested in seeing you quote of people saying everything should be free.

End-game collecting is grinding too, lol.
You GRIND for the gear to find it useless in three months.

I just think that you are playing the wrong game. There are many games with the end-game you are mentioning. Just go back to WoW or FFXIV and enjoy your time.

“End-game collecting is grinding too, lol.
You GRIND for the gear to find it useless in three months.”

Having a hard time translating this to proper English.

The end-game of collecting items / cometics in this game is indeed very grindy. It’s the grind I and many people are talking about yes. It does not have to be gear, it can even be things like mini’s.

“I just think that you are playing the wrong game. There are many games with the end-game you are mentioning. Just go back to WoW or FFXIV and enjoy your time.”
Ah that one is always useful. So I like to collect cosmetics and I prefer B2P games. Because of that I come to a B2P game that is all based on cosmetics but then if I say the end-game of collecting these things is grindy suddenly it’s not the game for me anymore. In stead I should go play WoW. But you are right.. This part is much better in WoW, not so grindy as in GW2.

However, does this statement of you then mean we finally conclude that this is indeed a grind in GW2. And so it kinda destroys this part of the end-game for GW2.

It took a long road but we are finally there it seems.

And yes I do sometimes play other games and many many many other people did as well, they even completely left GW2 over the last two years of who many because of this reason. But aren’t you supposed to love this game seeing how you defend it so much. And if so would you not want this game to be very successful with many people in stead of people leaving because these sorts of reasons?

With this philosophy Anet would never have to improve anything after release and if people did not like things they should just leave. (Not to mention that improving this would not hurt you very much)

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

This is from Wikipedia:

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.¹² *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage ³ in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *

Wouldn’t the rest of the quote be relevant as well?

“Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.”

I don’t think GW2 has terrible grind. I just can’t believe how grindy ascended gear is, which just so happens to be the best gear in the game, but that could possibly be cancelled out because there is no gear treadmill.

Nope the rest of the quote isn’t relevant. That is to say what I’ve said is providing THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

Everything Anet has said from beginning to end, since the time of the manifesto supports the definition of THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

The other definitions might or might not apply.

But if there is a MOST COMMON USEAGE, and that useage is supported by context, continually, then people who are not using the MOST COMMON USEAGE are being willfully ignorant.

If I make a statement and define what I mean and someone comes along and says this sentence can also mean this and this, it’s not relevant at all to my statement.

Even if it was true that was ‘the most common usages’ it does not mean the other usages suddenly do not count as grind anymore. So if people talk about grind they all count equally (that includes Anet talking about grind!). And that paragraph where you quoted from even ends with the sentence [Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.] so the article itself refers to grind for getting additional items. Exactly what is going on here.

Besides you did not make a statement and defined what you meant. You simply quoted a definition (well part of it) from wiki seemingly to proof that, that was the definition of grind. It was not like you said.. I do not find it grindy because for me grindy means this and it does not fit into this. If you did then we might be able to agree it did not fit into your definition what is btw completely irrelevant for the people who consider it grindy.

It seems like everybody here agrees there is grind in GW2 only some want to ignore it because that grind does not count according to them. And I can understand that that grind does not effect there personal game-play but that does not mean it does not count for other people.

Behellagh.1468:

Grind is always in the eye of the beholder. I define it as stuff I don’t like to do but have to to get X. But I don’t consider it grinding if you are simply trying to accumulate gold to by gems because you think everything should be “free”. Those people are just being cheap.

I did not see anybody say everything should be free. Can you quote them? I for example have been asking for expansion for a long time. I would be fine having to had buy an expansion every year and paying for it that way.

No problem with that, no problem with paying for a game. But I have a problem with grind and I do like to have the end-game of collecting those items without the gold-grind.

Anyway, interested in seeing you quote of people saying everything should be free.

Davey.7029:

If you call Guild Wars 2 grindy, then you really haven’t played any other MMORPG.

That is an assumption I know for a fact is wrong as I do consider GW2 grindy and did play multiple other mmo’s.

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.

And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is).

Okay then, by your admission, everything is a grind. Gotcha. You’re wrong mind you, but at least we all know what spin you’re trying to sell.

Nope not everything is a grind. Even explained that but you prefer to ignore that and just repeat yourself.

No I quite clearly made a distinction apparent there, to which you responded saying everything is optional.

Yes, everything is optional. Living is optional. Life sure is such a nasty grind! I mean, how general do you want to get here?

So following this brilliant path of relativism logic, playing the game is grinding according to you. Your words.

This is not what grinding is. It was pointed out to you several times, not just by me.

People farming money for pretty things is not an enforced mandatory grind required to remain relevant game-wise.

But in this regard, you are correct: I repeat myself. It just seems to go over your head. How about now? Savvy?

Lol or is it over your head? The fact that you consider it only grindy if it is ‘required’ and then you consider it required if it locks out content? And then you do not see items as content. (that’s your definition right?) Well within those borders you are correct. But that are your borders, your idea and on what you base your arguments that it’s not grindy.

Maybe stop for a moment and consider that other people (like those complaining about the grind) look at it in another way. If they consider it grindy because getting those ‘not mandatory’ items is a grind that does not mean they are wrong simply because it does not fits into your vision where grind only counts as grind if it’s ‘mandatory’ and then your definition of mandatory.

But I think we did gain some ground here. Basically you now do seem to agree there is a huge grind in this game “People farming money for pretty things” (so you see that is going on). But according to you this grind does not count as grind because it’s not ‘mandatory’. Oke it might be the preferred end-game for many people, especially in an game build around cosmetics. But it’s not ‘mandatory’. So the grind is there but it does not count as grind (for you).

Good that we at least reached that point. Now only consider that for many people that does just as well count as grind because what they like to do ‘playing this mandatory game and getting those mandatory items in it’ is so grindy.

Oow and the idea that I said the whole game is a grind still makes no sense. Just saying.

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.

And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is).

Okay then, by your admission, everything is a grind. Gotcha. You’re wrong mind you, but at least we all know what spin you’re trying to sell.

Nope not everything is a grind. Even explained that but you prefer to ignore that and just repeat yourself. And I am not selling anything. We all know people are grinding gold like mad in GW2 but according to you it does not count because it’s ‘optional’. It’s oke if you like this game but you are really fooling yourself not wanting to see the grind that is here just to protect negative things about the game. As if it’s a personal attack on you.

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

This is from Wikipedia:

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.¹² *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage ³ in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *

Like how people kill the world bosses over and over again to grind for the gold to then but the items they like?

No, there is an exclusive distinction to be had there. Mandatory != Optional. Nothing in GW2 forces you to grind to remain on par with your fellow players.

Most people will agree that exotic gear is the standard, and there are a dozen ways to earn this gear that does not involve a significant time sink when compared to other games in the same genre.

The way you’re wanting to apply it means everything is a grind. That’s a wee bit disingenuous.

Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.

And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is). If I can get something directly for specific content with a 100% drop change it is not a grind. If I need to do it multiple times it becomes farming but if I just need to do whatever just to grind for a currency to get what I want, yes then it becomes a grind. (In GW2 that currency is gold and what you might want are cosmetics, in those wiki examples the currency is XP and the XP gets you levels as that is what some people want)

nGumball.1283:

McSlappy.1372:

Test.8734:

Their “no-grind philosophy” has been extremely grindy.

This is the most grindy game I have ever played. I mean seriously WoW is a mear fraction of the grind and with their new expansion that is hardly any grind. When I’m away at work I can even have the garrison follower out getting me loot and stuff.

Laughing at those that say mandatory grind. You have two type the optimal people who want to have best in slot and then you have everyone else who is sub optimal. Yes the sub optimal is non mandatory grind because they choose to not be the best they can be. For those that want the best the grind is ridiculous and extremely unrewarding.. I can look back at WoW legendaries and remember the efforts that were put in to get them by the guilds and players. With this game it’s grinding out RNG or pay to win purchases with RL money. Funny for a free to play game. Ohh well we’ll see if they ever bother to fix it. Will have to fix it for free though before wasting money on an expansion to fix what should have been there when payed for in the first place.

This post is a clear example of a person who has clearly no idea of what grind means neither have played the WoW expansion.

You see, I hoped somebody did come up with this. I did not play WoW for years but did play a month for the 10th anniversary and I do not find it grindy at all. Maybe there is grind but then it’s for the content I do not care so much about. (so much for it being ‘required’ as some people say.

I love to collect mini’s. How do you do that in WoW? Different ways, quests, dungeons, achievements, crafts and so on all rewarding there own mini. How do you do it for about 90% of the mini’s in GW2? Grind gold and by them.

I also did go for that special mount they had for the 10th reverser what is purely cosmetic btw. They also have the flying carpet we also have in GW2. You know how to get it there? With a craft, you know how to get it in GW2? buy it with gold. They also have the flying broom, there it is rewarded from a dungeon, in GW2 gold. They have a barber, want to change your haircut in GW2 again a lot of gold, they have also many toys obtainable with fun-crafts like engineering or rewarded from quest, in Gw2 almost all gold.

No grind for me in WoW if it comes to those things, just fun end-game. Now WoW has it’s own problems and GW2 has it’s own pro’s but if it comes to this it’s interesting to show how you can’t say ‘oow GW2 has no grind but WoW is extremely grindy’. No, that just depends on your personal play-style.

rhapsody.3615:

Devata.6589:

rhapsody.3615:

In the last game I played, I’d have to play a dungeon a few times to buy one armor piece. I then would have to go farm the same creature for 20+ of a very rare drop to fully upgrade ONE armor piece. So no, I do not find GW2’s gear acquisition to be grindy. When you “grind” for things in this game, that is a choice. You can buy exotic gear off of the TP, or you can run dungeons or craft it. A new level 80 can be geared fully in minutes. Ascended is not necessary, though you can even buy all of its components from the TP.

“When you “grind” for things in this game, that is a choice.” Of course it’s a choice, it’s always a choice, it was a choice in that other game you played as well. Nobody holding a gun to your head telling you, you need to grind, you will life not grinding.

That said, this game is all about cosmetics and if you like to collect fun or nice looking things being it mini’s, toys, instruments, weapons skins and so on you do end in an endless grind or you buy it (the gold or the item) or you ignore them (it’s a choice).

And the way you talked about the other game at least that did send you over the world rewarding for specific content. First you where farming a dungeon, then you where farming a mob maybe some items you wanted did have a 100% drop change or where rewarded for completing a dungeon or a quest. You where doing different things including farming to get the items you wanted.

The problem in GW2 is that many items are simply not directly available (in a reasonable way) in the game, so it’s grind gold, grind gold and grind gold to get it. Then for the next item you want the same and the for the next and the next and the next.

While collecting those items could be much more fun (the way you describe it from that other game sounds like more fun to hunt down items you want then grinding gold all the time).

And sure you don’t need to do it, I don’t but then what do you do if collecting these things is one of the things you would love to do (but can’t or won’t do in GW2 because it’s all about grinding gold?) Well then people complain about lack of end-game and / or leave the game being bored with it.

Basically the whole excuse you give in the comment is that it’s not bad in GW2 because it’s optional but like I said, it is just as optional in the other game but if getting those items is what you like to do it is a problem. Just as in the other game you liked to get that armor piece.

Actually, the new gear was not optional in that other game. You needed the top tier gear to complete the newest content. There were not many options for getting drops, and you could not go around a world hunting items. I’m sorry that I gave any example now because people are picking it apart on assumptions. It would be like your armor needing 28 charged lodestones to upgrade, and the only way to obtain them was from sparks in Orr at their current drop rate. The strategy was go into a high level quest/dungeon, and break the head of a monster. This would drop an item, and the item you need would drop about 1 in 50+ tries. Multiplied by 6 pieces of gear, no it was not fun nor was it optional.

Well it was only required if you wanted to do that next bid of content just as in GW2 it’s only required if you want those items (and are not going to buy your way out of the grind).

What I mean with ’it’s never required’ is that it’s a game, you are not required to play a game so if people talk about things being optional or not it basically always comes down to if it is needed to reach a goal they personally like they consider it required but if it’s a goal somebody else might be interested in but they them self are not it’s optional.

As much as for you the goal was to do that higher level content or as for some people the goal is to do the highest level raids in some games (usually requiring farming for gear) for me it’s collecting those cosmetics. But if I was to try and reach that goal in GW2 I am ‘required’ to grind the gold. (Not going to do that, but then it means that type of end-game I like to do is not available here).

Vayne.8563:

This is from Wikipedia:

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.¹² *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage ³ in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *

Like how people kill the world bosses over and over again to grind for the gold to then but the items they like?

Also from that same wiki: [Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.] [Some games, especially free-to-play games, allow players to bypass grinding by paying additional fees.] That is funny, you can bypass the grind I just talked about by simply buying those items from the cash-shop or by buying gold to buy those items you want.

VodCom.6924:

Some people clearly need a recall :

• An MMO is considered “grindy” if one has to repeat a small set of simple and uninteresting tasks in order to reach the level cap and enjoy the “end-game content”
• Having objects or rewards that require grind in a game does not make it “grindy”
• In GW2 the end-game content can be summed up as : dry top + silverwastes ; megaboss ; living world ; dungeons and fractals. Of all these only fractals of level 10+ require ascended equipment. Thus one with exotic gear can access 100% of endgame content since you walk through the same fractals at level or 50 (only the difficulty changes).
• And GW2 gives you tools to bypass the leveling process for your alts (exp tomes + skill scrolls + gold to buy traits).

With that in mind, one cannot possibly claim that GW2 is a grindy MMO. The ones who do either :

• Want everything handeled to them immediately without breaking a sweat.
• bash the game for the sake of bashing Anet/the game.

Edit : I’d also like to remind you all that ascended tier items were added because a vocal minority (not pointing fingers here) asked for something to grind for once they’ve finished the game.

Well that is then your definition of a grindy game just as it is your definition of end-game.

“if one has to repeat a small set of simple and uninteresting tasks” this part I am willing to agree on for the biggest part.. You know like grinding gold in GW2.

“in order to reach the level cap and enjoy the “end-game content”" Having to do that to reach level cap is one thing that can be grindy but not the only thing. Just as the end-game itself can be very grindy.

“Having objects or rewards that require grind in a game does not make it "grindy"" Sure, if there are some items or rewards that does not make the complete game grindy. Agreed

“In GW2 the end-game content can be summed up as : dry top + silverwastes ; megaboss ; living world ; dungeons and fractals.” So why is collecting cosmetics in this game, that is based around cosmetics, not on your list. Because in other games that is my end-game and I would love to have it as end-game in this game that is all about cosmetics. In fact it does exist in this game but it is then grinding gold, grinding gold and grinding even more gold (or buying it with cash). In fact, those things you talk about here are a few that things getting grinded for the gold mainly to buy those items.

How many people are doing the world bosses over and over again just because they love doing the world bosses? Or are they doing it for the special drops? Rarely, or are they just grinding them for gold? yeah most I know do it mainly for the gold grind. People move around a little to whatever makes them the most gold.

“With that in mind, one cannot possibly claim that GW2 is a grindy MMO. The ones who do either :

• Want everything handeled to them immediately without breaking a sweat.
• bash the game for the sake of bashing Anet/the game."
  Yeah.. no.
  I just explained why it’s so grindy. And I definitely do not want everything handed out to me, if I wanted that I could simply buy most of those items directly form the cash-shop or by buying gold from the cash-shop. No I want interested content that rewards me those things. A craft that rewards me the instruments. Dungeons, quest, events, world-bosses, WvW achievements and so on that reward me all those mini’s. Same for the many skins and same for the finishers and so on. I want to play different content that all rewards it’s own thing.

People who dislike Anet or the game so much will not take the time to be here.

Now if people are not interested in those cosmetics (what the heck are they then doing in GW2?) I can understand it’s not grindy for them. Just as I never did feel the grind in the great treadmill games because I was never interested in the best gear.
Fact is this game is focused around cosmetics and collecting them is what is so grindy. Well and the highest tier level items is as well I guess but like I said I personally don’t really care for that.

rhapsody.3615:

In the last game I played, I’d have to play a dungeon a few times to buy one armor piece. I then would have to go farm the same creature for 20+ of a very rare drop to fully upgrade ONE armor piece. So no, I do not find GW2’s gear acquisition to be grindy. When you “grind” for things in this game, that is a choice. You can buy exotic gear off of the TP, or you can run dungeons or craft it. A new level 80 can be geared fully in minutes. Ascended is not necessary, though you can even buy all of its components from the TP.

“When you “grind” for things in this game, that is a choice.” Of course it’s a choice, it’s always a choice, it was a choice in that other game you played as well. Nobody holding a gun to your head telling you, you need to grind, you will life not grinding.

That said, this game is all about cosmetics and if you like to collect fun or nice looking things being it mini’s, toys, instruments, weapons skins and so on you do end in an endless grind or you buy it (the gold or the item) or you ignore them (it’s a choice).

And the way you talked about the other game at least that did send you over the world rewarding for specific content. First you where farming a dungeon, then you where farming a mob maybe some items you wanted did have a 100% drop change or where rewarded for completing a dungeon or a quest. You where doing different things including farming to get the items you wanted.

The problem in GW2 is that many items are simply not directly available (in a reasonable way) in the game, so it’s grind gold, grind gold and grind gold to get it. Then for the next item you want the same and the for the next and the next and the next.

While collecting those items could be much more fun (the way you describe it from that other game sounds like more fun to hunt down items you want then grinding gold all the time).

And sure you don’t need to do it, I don’t but then what do you do if collecting these things is one of the things you would love to do (but can’t or won’t do in GW2 because it’s all about grinding gold?) Well then people complain about lack of end-game and / or leave the game being bored with it.

Basically the whole excuse you give in the comment is that it’s not bad in GW2 because it’s optional but like I said, it is just as optional in the other game but if getting those items is what you like to do it is a problem. Just as in the other game you liked to get that armor piece.

Test.8734:

Here we have a full transcript of yesterday’s presentation (thanks to the guy who wrote all that down).

Interestingly, twice Colin mentions “our no-grind philosophy for Guild Wars 2”.

It appears ArenaNet really believes their own Manifesto, when the same Colin said, “We don’t want players to grind”.

We just need to let them know that, between Ascended items and slow dungeon rewards and Legendaries and the new level-based unlocks and the new trait system unlock and etc etc, well… Their “no-grind philosophy” has been extremely grindy.

Yeah wanting to get any nice skins is now buying or grinding gold. But let’s hope this statement means they are going to change that with the expansion. No more endless grinding if you would like those things but you can earn them all ingame.

I see it not so much as we is but as a promise for HoT. Or I hope so.

SpyderBite.6274:

Devata.6589:

It’s really smart how they introduce flying mounts but don’t name them mounts to keep the anti-mound people happy.

What is more interesting for me is that with the introduction of these flying mounts instanced maps would be a problem so that means we might see an end to that.

The only reservation I have is that I hope we will be able to unlock many different looks of these hang gliders all over the world. That’s the type of end-game I like. I don’t hope it’s going to be more cash-shop stuff again you buy or grind gold for. We will see.

Wow. There are a whole lot of assumptions in so few sentences.

It are more like questions, not really assumptions.

I don’t assume the maps are not instanced anymore but it is a possibility as it would usually be a problem for something like gliders. So the question then becomes… are maps indeed not instanced anymore or did they fix this problem in another way?

Roda.7468:

tigirius.9014:

rapthorne.7345:

tigirius.9014:

Zanshin.5379:

Guild Wars 2: ArcheAge

Actually WoW MoP had them before AA.

and Aion had this mechanic for years, air currents and all.

Uhm those are wings, very different things. You can actually flap those there is a difference.

Someone didn’t play Aion. :P
You could barely fly in most zones. (in the beginning of the game’s life). All leveling zones were 95% gliding 5% flying (in the main quest hub town)

Lunarhound.7324:

Gliders are flying mounts.

Gliders aren’t flying mounts because they have no way to maintain or gain altitude without relying on outside forces. :]

They’re more falling-with-style mounts.

Well… even then, the gliders are on your back.
You aren’t mounting them
They’re mounting you.

YOU’RE the falling mount!!

“because they have no way to maintain or gain altitude” So you need special winds and can’t maintain altitude. To me that still makes it a mount but with some special mechanics. You have a similar system (without the wind) in AA. There you also jump from a higher point and then glide, you can gain some altitude (Just as you will in GW2 if there is wind) but eventually you will come down.

Anyway, enough about the ‘mount / not mount’ discussion. To me it are mounts.. mounts with special mechanics. If the mount-haters are happy if they tell them-self it are not mounts and that’s why they can be fine with these gliders be my guess.

Back to the more important part. I want to see the ability to unlock, collect, hunt down and be rewarded with skins for these gliders. All over the world without gold, without boring endless grind for most of them, without a cash-shop. I will not complain if there are 3 skins in the cash-shop but the other 50 skins including the best looking ones (well thats personal), the most special ones, the ones with most visual effects should be in the game, the harder the content, the better the look. The guild glider(s) that I fully expect to be available at some point, should not be in the cash-shop (like with some of the guild things like finisher, backpack and so on now) but be rewarded for doing guild related stuff or be an unlock for all guild-members when the guild completes something.

I want this to be part of the game-play and not part of the gold-grind or cash-shop.

Many people say WoW is a vertical progression game but even there by far most people like to go for these visual things. For example for the 10th reverser they put a special mount to be rewarded in a raid only available during this 10th anniversary. (Usually I am against temporary available stuff but I guess a 10th reverser is a good reason;) ) Anyway, from a skill perspective it’s not even a great thing as it’s just a ground mount but many people wanted to go for that mount just because of the looks, and just to proof they where there at the 10th anniversary (so the game value of the mount).

Why this WoW example.. To show that even in a game like WoW that people consider a gear treadmill as if that is the main thing, what keeps a lot of people busy, what is the end-game for many people is collecting these sorts of things and they have value also because of the content that rewards them. Unlike the cash-shop or buy-able (gold grind) ones.

For a cosmetic heavy game like GW2 this is even more important and the reason so many people did leave the game has imho a lot to do with this not really being a part in GW2 at this moment. The many skins (think mini’s, finishers, toys, weapon skins, hairstyles, instruments) exist but mainly as cash-shop items. kitten, by buying gold from the cash-shop or brainlessly grinding gold you can even get the legendary weapon.

What is more fun and more end-game? Buying your instrument from the cash-shop or with gold or having a craft that sends you all over the world to level it and let you do content to unlock the instruments? (For another example)

HoT will be the moment many people who left will come back but if they get bored after half a year again I assure you most of them will not come back for the 2th expansion, so Anet, please get this part right this time. Make these things (and now gliders are just the example but it’s the same for nearly all skins or other fun items in the game) part of the end-game. It is what this game needs.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Devata.6589:

JustTrogdor.7892:

Who said they are going to be skins? The gliding issue was described as an ability.

Going to be skins? You mean like the wing skins we already have? No they are going to be like mounts (a skill / item you use to fly) but they are very likely going to have different skins for them. That just makes scene don’t you think?

No. If you watched the PAX feed it was described a new ability that can be unlocked in the new region through the new mastery character progression system. It was mentioned that ability will allow a player glide between places in the new region without falling to their death. They never said a thing about it being a cosmetic item or a skin. The only thing that we saw was the trailer where people have wings when gliding. That doesn’t mean by any means it is a mount type system but more of a visual effect that happens when someone uses that ability. When my Mesmer uses skill 1 it creates a visual effect. That doesn’t make it a skin.

I think some of you are reading too much into the whole glider ability.

I did watch it and like I said a mount is also just a skill where the item you can get in the world is more like the skin. In many mmo’s you first have to learn reading a mount what is then the skill. Also that it does not work in older maps is not uncommon for mounts. Sure this version seems to be limited in multiple ways but I would still call it a mount. Also the visual in the game really looked like a glider.. an item and that glider can and I’m sure will have multiple skins.

Ashen.2907:

I’m going to have to agree with Devata here. I hope that there will be cosmetic variations of the hang gliders that can be earned in game. I wouldn’t have a problem with some in the gemstore but specific skins earned through specific content would be fun IMO.

If there are a few in the cash-shop and as long as they not extremely outdo all the other from a visual perspective (giving you all type of effects or just looking way more special then all the other skins, like they now do with many weapon and armor skins.) I can be fine with that. As long as by far most, including the very special ones, are obtainable directly in the game.

The big problem there of course is that then there is not enough intensive for people to buy them, thats why it’s important there is no need for Anet having people buying them. And that comes to the point why I ask for more regular paid expansion.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Who said they are going to be skins? The gliding issue was described as an ability.

Going to be skins? You mean like the wing skins we already have? No they are going to be like mounts (a skill / item you use to fly) but they are very likely going to have different skins for them. That just makes sense don’t you think?

Wetpaw.3487:

It will be interesting to see what glider options (skins) they will have in the gem store, if they plan to add them to gem store. What a great way to introduce a new travel/mounts ability into the game.

Yeah well lets hope they will not put them in the cash-shop but in the open world (and crafts) for us the hunt down. We are playing a B2P game after-all not a F2P game where putting them in the cash-shop would be completely acceptable. Let those skins be part of the end-game as it should be. We will have paid for them by buying the expansion.

JustTrogdor.7892:

They already said the ability to hang glide is a ability that will be unlocked through the new mastery system. They are not really mounts as I understand but an earned ability. If you watch the trailer the characters have wings as they glide. So no fear about your gem store hate Devata. I’m sure you will be safe.

Oow but I want to unlock new ones (thats where that hate comes from, that sort of things gets put in the cash-shop to much removing that end-game of collecting these items all over the game). Get them from drops or for completing a dungeon or unlocking them with the guild, craft them and so on. I also think it works as a skill, in fact mounts work like a skill in most mmo’s these days, but that obviously does not mean there would not be different visual looks for them. I think it’s silly to think there will always only be one skin for it. What I am saying is let me hunt down these skins all over the world in stead of putting many of them in the cash-shop again removing the end-game of collecting the skins (without buying or grinding gold).

So I am not sure yet if i’m safe, but it looks to be a paid expansion so I may expect them to be in the game, the question is of course how long for the expansion after that because if thats to long we for sure will start seeing these glider skins pop up in the cash-shop.

Vayne.8563:

But there are people who said straight out that Anet didn’t have people working on anything in the background and that there’d be no expansion.

I doubt many of them are going to post here to admit they were dead wrong.

Personally I never said there would never be an expansion.. heck I have been asking for one for like two years hear, but I do think it’s late (for some things to late) and I still would prefer more regular expansions then once every 3? year. Yeah I still stick to that story. Give me an expansion a year and then minimize the cash-shop.

But anyway, if we would really want to play the shame game we could also start pointing out towards the people who said we would not need an expansion because Anet would be able to deliver everything with the LS as they initial wanted to. Well now even Anet seem to have come back on that one.

Or we could start pointing towards people saying an expansion would very likely raise the level cap “I’m pretty sure they will raise the level cap with an expansion. And I don’t think it’ll be a huge deal….but yeah, there are definitely pros and cons associated with it.
Hopefully it won’t come with a new tier of gear though.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Will-level-cap-raise/page/2#post4536147

But what is the point? People where making suggestions based on the information they did get and maybe Anet even changed they might half way (so those people where right). What matters is how the game can improve. An expansion is a step in the right direction imho but that alone is not enough to get the game back where it imo should be.

It’s really smart how they introduce flying mounts but don’t name them mounts to keep the anti-mound people happy.

What is more interesting for me is that with the introduction of these flying mounts instanced maps would be a problem so that means we might see an end to that.

The only reservation I have is that I hope we will be able to unlock many different looks of these hang gliders all over the world. That’s the type of end-game I like. I don’t hope it’s going to be more cash-shop stuff again you buy or grind gold for. We will see.

nGumball.1283:

Since I was commenting on your statements, my irrelevant statements are as relevant as yours and therefore you shouldn’t have commented in the first place if you can’t be relevant according to your own standards.

Point is that the whole whining of ‘’OMG, THIS IS THE FIRST MMO IN HISTORY TO HAVE AN EXPANSION SO LATE, NO CONTENT, OMFG’’ is not accurate. WoW was almost as late and had very little updates during these two years.

A B2P MMORPG should be cash-shop centric or the MMO would die and no, GW1 was never an MMORPG, it was just a smaller CORPG that hardly needed the same recourses to keep it alive or updated.

If you want an MMORPG with no focus on the cash-shop, you may want to play P2P games, not B2P ones. Not to mention the fact that alot of P2P games, including WoW is having alot of exclusive cosmetics in their shops by this point.

This fancy MMORPG where the cash-shop is irrelevant doesn’t exist yet. Good luck waiting for one though.

Ah now I see what is going on, you think I did say thinks I did not say. Like “’OMG, THIS IS THE FIRST MMO IN HISTORY TO HAVE AN EXPANSION SO LATE”, I did not say that in the original comment you commented on. But please quote where I said it.

and “NO CONTENT, OMFG” again something I did not say. Please quote where I said that in my original comment you commented on.

“A B2P MMORPG should be cash-shop centric or the MMO would die” Now this is at least relevant to what I did original say. But no it does not have to be cash-shop focused. It could have been Expansion pack focused. (Thats what I said.. maybe thats what you translated to ’’OMG, THIS IS THE FIRST MMO IN HISTORY TO HAVE AN EXPANSION SO LATE"?). Now a F2P MMORPG should indeed be focused on the cash-shop or would die because of n income. You see the difference there?

“GW1 was never an MMORPG, it was just a smaller CORPG” Thats why I said “MMO like game” Like as in not really but something along those lines.. like.

And that was a reaction on your statement “GW was the franchise that started the trend with B2P talking about MMOs” so you are arguing here more with your own statement then with mine.

“that hardly needed the same recourses to keep it alive or updated.” So you think regular expansion would make less money then cash-shop sales do? If that is what you are saying I am afraid the numbers seems to point out differendly.

Have a look at this statistics: https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg If you would use the release dates of GW1’s expansions / campaigns and put them against the GW1 line you would see that every time they released an expansion the income with on average up to 100% of the initial sales. Comparing that to GW2 it means that if GW2 had released it on a yearly base they might have made more money then they did now.

Oow and just for the records, I don’t expect the sales to spike to 100% again if this expansion where to be released because they already did some damage to the game the last 2,5 years scaring of people that will not come back. But I do think that if they would have hold true, to B2P and would have released on about a yearly base they would have hit the 100% just as they did with GW1.

Also games like GTA and Battlefield use this model. You really think those are so much cheaper to make? In fact GTA 5 was the most expansive game when it got released, sure it will have lower upkeep cost but a game like Battlefield likely has similar cost to keep the servers running. So statistically and logically there is no reason to assume the B2P approach would not have generated enough income.

“If you want an MMORPG with no focus on the cash-shop, you may want to play P2P games, not B2P ones. Not to mention the fact that a lot of P2P games, including WoW is having a lot of exclusive cosmetics in their shops by this point.”
You see, what you do here is using what you see in GW2, consider that B2P (this cash-shop focus) and that’s where you base your idea’s on. No when I want no cash-shop focus I should not only look for P2P I should look for P2P or B2P and not F2P. Sadly GW2 turned more into F2P the last 2 years but lets hope it makes a turn into the right direction now. And also I was talking about a focus. Yes WoW has a cash-shop but no cash-shop focus like GW2 does at this moment.

“This fancy MMORPG where the cash-shop is irrelevant doesn’t exist yet. Good luck waiting for one though.” It’s irrelevant in WoW to keep it in your example right? And I did wait for it and then GW2 came.. Announced as the B2P MMORPG. They even said the cash-shop would be irrelevant (what makes sense for a B2P game). P2P is also not my thing, no I would prefer a true B2P game like GW2 promised to be.

nGumball.1283:

Devata.6589:

daimasei.4091:

Of course is an Xpac.

I mean, double XP? 75% off? Obviously, they want people to get ready for the expansion.

And of course, isn’t going to be free. This is a B2P game, not a F2P.

daimasei.4091:

Vayne.8563:

There are even free to play games that charge for expansions.

That turns them into B2P games -_-

Well GW2 was released as a B2P game but let’s face it, it has became more of a F2P game. The simply fact that a game charges for a game does not make it a B2P game.

We generally consider a game like WoW or Wildstar a P2P game not a P2P B2P game. The terms F2P, B2P and P2P refer to the payment models and so to the way the game company makes it’s money.

The names evolved in this way but really F2P usually means cash-shop (while of course there are some truly F2P games that have no cash-shop ).

WoW makes most of it’s money with it’s subscriptions so we consider is a P2P game.

Many non-MMO’s but also GW1 make most of it’s money using the game-sales and expansions or / and sequels sales and so we consider them B2P games and then there are many games that make most of there money with the cash-shop and have usually no or low fee’s for the game or expansions.

GW2 was released as B2P but soon started focusing on there cash-shop in stead of on game / expansions sales. If they did focus on game and expansion-sales we would have seen less cash-shop stuff and would have had an expansion 1, max 1,5 year after release for them to generate the money they needed.

So based on that alone you can’t say it’s B2P so it will be paid. But lets hope it will be paid and they move back more towards a B2P game with after this expansion more regular expansions in stead of once every 3 years (more like once a year) and losing most of the focus on the cash-shop.

That is the best that could happen for this game not even looking at the content this expansion (if it is an expansion) is going to offer.

1. It is not 3 years yet.
2. WoW was P2P and its’ first expansion was almost as late.
3. GW was the franchise that started the trend with B2P talking about MMOs, therefore, there is nothing called ‘’B2P should not be like that’’. GW was the game that started the trend and Anet will take it the way they want, there are no standards.
4. For a game that is so focused on the cash-shop, it is facinating to know that GW2 had more content-updates than WoW the first 2 years after launch.

1 No, it’s 2 years and 5 months (- 5 days) If it’s an expansion I expect it to be release within 6 months, if that is the case it is about 3 years, still I never stated it was 3 years. But what do you wanna say with this anyway? It’s not 1 year, it’s not 1,5 year like you would expect of B2P game (like I did say) and it’s well over what the market (including the not B2P games) do. Anyway, whats your point, today it’s not 3 years yet no.. so?

2 Again, wondering what you are trying to say here? What is the point you are trying to make? Talking about B2P here not P2P. Oow and just for the record, WoW took 2 years and just under two months for it’s first expansion (and was of the bigger mmo’s about the slowest). Even if GW2 was to release it today it would have been 3 months longer (thats a quart year) then WoW. Just so you have you numbers right, but still not sure what you want to point out with this.

3 There are many games using the B2P model, in fact most games do but GW was indeed the first (I know of) to use it to a MMO like game. That however does not mean the definition would change if they would start using a cash-shop type of model GW2.

4 Not sure if it’s true content-wise but sure whatever, again what is your point? Personally I would have rather seen it being B2P, having the first expansion 1 / 1,5 years after release (no content in-between would have been fine) and no gold-grind with all the fun items in the game in stead of grinding gold or buying them.

After reading your points multiple time all I can conclude is that I said something you apparently did not like, as if I was hurting your baby or something. So you decided to react but did not really have anything to say? So posted some complete irrelevant statements just to have said something about it or get some for of rage of your chest?

I have no problem having a discussion with you if you like that but then you will have to come with relevant points in stead of just some random pretty much completely irrelevant (to what I said) points. Only 3 was relevant to what I said but made no sense whatsoever.

daimasei.4091:

Of course is an Xpac.

I mean, double XP? 75% off? Obviously, they want people to get ready for the expansion.

And of course, isn’t going to be free. This is a B2P game, not a F2P.

daimasei.4091:

Vayne.8563:

There are even free to play games that charge for expansions.

That turns them into B2P games -_-

Well GW2 was released as a B2P game but let’s face it, it has became more of a F2P game. The simply fact that a game charges for a game does not make it a B2P game.

We generally consider a game like WoW or Wildstar a P2P game not a P2P B2P game. The terms F2P, B2P and P2P refer to the payment models and so to the way the game company makes it’s money.

The names evolved in this way but really F2P usually means cash-shop (while of course there are some truly F2P games that have no cash-shop ).

WoW makes most of it’s money with it’s subscriptions so we consider is a P2P game.

Many non-MMO’s but also GW1 make most of it’s money using the game-sales and expansions or / and sequels sales and so we consider them B2P games and then there are many games that make most of there money with the cash-shop and have usually no or low fee’s for the game or expansions.

GW2 was released as B2P but soon started focusing on there cash-shop in stead of on game / expansions sales. If they did focus on game and expansion-sales we would have seen less cash-shop stuff and would have had an expansion 1, max 1,5 year after release for them to generate the money they needed.

So based on that alone you can’t say it’s B2P so it will be paid. But lets hope it will be paid and they move back more towards a B2P game with after this expansion more regular expansions in stead of once every 3 years (more like once a year) and losing most of the focus on the cash-shop.

That is the best that could happen for this game not even looking at the content this expansion (if it is an expansion) is going to offer.

Season 3 or an expansion pack but for free.
In both cases we will for sure see a continuation of the current cash-shop approach that has been sucking the fun out of this game for two years.

It would be best if we could finally hunt down our rewards in the game in stead of grinding currency for them or buying them. A paid expansion at least gives that opportunity.

Lets hope it’s an expansion and lets hope it cost money and they plan on focusing more on that. If it’s some type of free expansion / patch it’s getting payed with the cash-shop with all the negative effects of that as we have seen over the last 2 years.

How fun is an expansion / big patch if all it really does it add more maps to grind grind grind gold (as that is what the cash-shop focus resulted in).

No I do hope it does cost money and so it also means all the stuff we would else have seen being adding in the cash-shop to pay for it will not be in the game as fun rewards and stuff to hunt down in the game and less focus on gold.

I suggested this like a year ago, would especially be nice when you switch between a two-handed weapon and two of-handed / main-hand weapons. In case of legendary weapons the effects could also stack in some ways (while something like footprints should only be active for the weapon in use).

Siphaed.9235:

jokke.6239:

I’m curious if Living Story was meant in the beginning to be the “expansion”.
Or maybe not?
They have said a long time ago that they people working on a “big project” in the background.
If we find out this saturday that we will get a expansion with loads of new content, enough to be worthy to be compared with GW1 xpacs, then I think I will begin to appreciate the LS much more.
The worst thing about LS so far for me have been the thoughts in my head “is this all we will get”?
But in the future if I know that an xpac will be released later on, I think I will be able to enjoy those small 2 weekly patches much more

So basicly my question I guess is:

Do you think that they came to the conclusion that LS wasn’t the way to go, and decided to release an xpac instead?

Or do you think that LS was always just meant to fill the gap untill they released the “big project” ?

Do you not realize that the Living Story has be absolutely, 100% free of charge. Just log in and “bam! free content!”. There’s no subscription or anything, just 2 years of holiday events, new expanded story, new weapons, and more. That’s more than you’ll get out of a single player game, which will charge out the wazoo for DLC.

And honestly I’m seeing GW2 getting more QUALITY updates than some other games that are either subscription based or have ridiculous P2W cash shops.

An expansion would be an okay thing, but don’t just completely dismiss the Living Story. It’s an excellent experiment of game design that I’d like to see repeated in other games (although I like the original “???” discovery of steps and puzzle clues to find steps of progress instead of just map markers).

Do you not realize it was NOT free but it came with a big price?! You see, they had to earn money so they turned to the cash-shop for that as expansions where put on the longer run (or not at all) with the LS approach. That resulting in the game becoming more of what you see with many F2P game. Grind gold for or buy the items you want but no hunting down those things in the game. What for plenty of people is the (fun) end-game. So a less fun , less rewarding and very grindy game. That is a huge price to pay!

Celestina.2894:

Devata.6589:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Neither.

Living Story is not meant as an expansion nor a gap filler. It’s actually an extension of your personal, and continued, story.

It’s also supposed to give updated content that keeps players interested. Unlike other MMOs, where the endgame doesn’t exist, is raiding for gear, or strange things like Hutt Ball, the endgame is plot progression, achievement hunting for titles, gears, and minis, and exploration of new zones as they are released.

Living Story is kind of like an episodic television show where you are the main character.

Thus the wording of ‘Seasons’ in ArenaNet’s vocabulary.

Hunting for mini’s, completing fun crafts, hunting for ranger-pets, collecting mounts and other fun items. I love to do that (in mmo’s), but as far as it’s even in GW2 (of the examples basically only mini’s and fun items (toys) are). It’s mainly cash-shop or gold-grind. So not really fun. LS and PS is not very interesting if you are not a real story person. So I do hope that this HoT is an expansion and the endgame will again move towards that sort of things in stead of keeping that cash-shop or gold-grind and having the LS stuff to try and keep people bussy or as you name it ‘end-game’.

WvW was more end-game for me but that also gets old after you have done that for over a year because of the way it’s designed.

Honestly, even as someone really into story I stopped caring about the LS after…..Shadow of The Dragon, iirc. The constant cliff hangers just REALLY got on my nerves. I hate when a weekly TV show goes on a mid season break enough as it is. GW2 is even worse in that respect because it’s very little story progression every 2 weeks and being painfully predictable.

Cormac.3871:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

so what you are saying is:

“please take my money and offer me nothing meaningful in return, I don’t want my money to be used to make actual game content”

And this seems like a good idea to you?

So, 3 new maps, one new dungeon set (fractals), 40 hours of story (30 for season 1, 10 for season 2), new weapon and armour skins, 5 new traits per profession, a new wardrobe system etc. are nothing meaningful?

And then you realize GW1 got all that and more (minus the wardrobe and traits, but that wasn’t really needed due to how armor and builds in GW1 worked) in less time then GW2…..we are nearing 3 years, the amount of content GW2 has received since launch is really insignificant compared to it’s predecessor and other MMOs.

And even if it would have been much (because there for sure went a lot of work in it and it where many patches) that is not even relevant. What is relevant is what people think about it and by many it is conceived / received as not a lot of content.

But I agree, the stuff you can really see as an addition to the content isn’t that much at all even if they would release a full expansion 6 months from now. By that time you would expect a third expansion for a b2P game (Like GW1) and even most P2P and F2P games would be getting close to releasing their second expansion by that time.

About the story. I still guess it’s more for ‘story people’ then people less interested in the story but obviously will still not be great for all the ‘story people’.

For those thinking it’s just gap filler, it’ has always been and always has mend to be gap filler. That it that is not the case. They initially had more idea’s with it. If it had always been planned as gap filler the LS would have been fine the way it was the first few episodes. (some refuge’s walking on the street, and two week later a place sings where added so they knew where to go and so on). They could then also have been pushing out expansion every year.

But that was not the plan, it is not a coincident that even if HoT is an expansion it will have taken about 3 years (way over what the marked does) to release it. At some point it was mend as expansion replacer and so also a cash-shop commercial as that approach would mean they had to generate income that way.

So the conclusion it is and always has been just a gap filler in inaccurate.

Cormac.3871:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

so what you are saying is:

“please take my money and offer me nothing meaningful in return, I don’t want my money to be used to make actual game content”

And this seems like a good idea to you?

So, 3 new maps, one new dungeon set (fractals), 40 hours of story (30 for season 1, 10 for season 2), new weapon and armour skins, 5 new traits per profession, a new wardrobe system etc. are nothing meaningful?

Not compared to a true expansion (even a small one). And if I set that off against the negatives that came with this current approach, like all the fun items (like many of the added mini’s and toys, skins and so on) being turned into a gold-grind or item you simply buy, instead of it being fun rewards for content, things you hunt down in the game, adding to the game, it’s a really bad deal / compromise.

And if they would have gone for the expansion-focus we could have had two expansions by now.

Not to mention that you forget that even if there was no LS you usually get at least one bigger patch adding stuff like a dungeon and some other things in-between expansions.

SpyderBite.6274:

Let me see a raise of hands. When was the last time anybody stepped foot in to a GameStop?

Why must all this “expansion” talk always revolve around a boxed commodity. Digital content is best delivered digitally. It is very unlikely that there is anybody playing GW2 or any modern MMO for that matter, that still utilizes their slow dial-up connection as an excuse.

Back on topic: Living Story is just as it was billed. There are no conspiracy theories here to be picked apart. IMO, new content should continue to be delivered this way. I spend a lot of $$ money on the BLTP. I am not excited about having to shell out $50-$70 for an expansion. Especially after I’ve already spent 10 x that much on gems and other items. $$ which is being spent on content for people who haven’t spent a penny since their initial purchase of the game.

With the attitude you have (preferring cash-shop junk over paid content) a B2P game is not the most logical choice for you and one of the many F2P games out there would have been better imo. On the other hand, Anet served people like you well, pretty much turning the game right after initial sale more into a cash-shop game with focusing the cash-shop instead of keeping true to a B2P game so no heavy cash-shop and a focus on content / expansions like GW1.

You say, why should you have to buy an expansion because you already spend a lot of cash on the cash-shop but the answer stays the same, because you did buy a B2P game, not a F2P game.

It’s also funny how you seem to think that you spending cash on the cash-shop is being spend on content for people who haven’t spent a penny since release.

You see, I did not spend a penny on the cash-shop since release. I am willing to spend cash on the game but only on a true expansion (pretty much the opposite of you) that is also why I did go for a B2P game and not one of the many F2P games out there. But like I said in a previous post, what I like to do is hunt for rare mini’s, do fun craft (fun as in craft them let you craft fun items), hunting down special ranger-pets or special skins and so on.

The cash-shop focus did not result so much in content as the initial income could have been used to finance an expansion and if the game would have truly gone the B2P way we could have seen an expansion once a year, meaning we would have been two expansions down the road by now with much more content then we have since now.

No what we did get instead was the LS and those thinks I like are being monetized, meaning that if you like a fun item it’s 99% of the time something you buy form the cash-shop or grind gold for (making everything about gold is just as good for their cash-shop because they sell gold). Let’s compare that for example to a game like WoW (I could do that with any non-F2P mmo but most people know WoW). WoW has a flying carpet but there you can make it with a craft what in fact makes the craft more fun and is why I like such crafts. In GW2 the flying carpet is a cash-shop item so buy it or grind gold. WoW has mini’s and 99% are available directly in the game, drops, or rewards for dungeons or rewards for quest and so on with almost none being a gold-grind. Again in GW2 most are cash-shop or gold-grind. WoW has a flying broom and there it’s a dungeon-drop, GW2 has it but it’s a cash-shop item.

So do not think you paid the content for those who did not spend a penny. You simply helped Anet to make this sort imho bad decisions that sucked a lot of fun out of the game for many people. I rather would have seen an expansion after a year, paid for that expansion and that expansion would have added a new craft that let me create the many items that have now been put into the cash-shop, and it would have new event, quest and dungeons rewarding the mini’s that we have now being seen added to the cash-shop and the same for nearly everything added to the cash-hop could have been added as nice rewards for nice content that was added with that expansion.

It would have been more content, that was more fun, and rewards you earned by playing that content instead of buying it or grinding gold for it.